* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh *
Pastor Dave
The Resurrection of the Flesh
By Kurt M. Simmons
Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
what basis is there to believe they will be part of the
second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
The resurrection of the dead is a question fraught
with difficulty for many. Preterists maintain that
the resurrection was and is nonphysical, consisting
in the spirit, not the body, of man. Others, including
Postmillennialists, believe that the resurrection is
essentially fleshly; that there can be no resurrection
apart from physical bodies rising from their graves.
In this article, we want to examine the idea of the
“resurrection of the flesh” to see if it accords with
the scriptures. We believe a candid study will
demonstrate that the resurrection subsists in
the immaterial realm of the spirit, not the flesh.
Confusion in the Early Church
Understanding scripture and eschatology can be a great
challenge; the meaning often is often elusive, cloaked in
metaphors and poetic imagery. Other times it assumes
the reader has a familiarity with basic themes of redemption
and sanctification, and God’s established methods and
manner of bringing his purpose to pass. Language that
speaks “everlastingly” may actually mean only “age-long”.
Language that says God causes a condition or event, may
really mean that he merely allowed it to come about, etc.
The difficulty in understanding scripture is alluded to by
Paul when he said that his preaching was not with words
of “man’s wisdom” and that he spoke “not in the words
which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost
teacheth.” (I Cor. 2:4, 13)
“Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect;
yet not the wisdom of this world…But we speak the wisdom
of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God
ordained before the world unto our glory.” (I Cor. 2: 6, 7)
The fact that Paul says the message of the gospel was
sometimes communicated “in a mystery” and in terms
that were “hidden”, eluding comprehension by those
who were not “perfect” (viz., practiced or trained and
hence accomplished and complete, cf. Heb. 5:12-14)
is telling. It means that we cannot always take words
at their face value, but must be alert to deeper meanings.
In discussing the resurrection, Paul said, “Behold, I shew
you a mystery.” (I Cor. 15:51). The term mystery can
mean something that is marvelous or wonderful. It can
also mean something that is hidden and requires spiritual
discernment to be correctly understood. Often it means
both. The scripture’s teaching about the resurrection,
like eschatology in general, is indeed marvelous; it
requires a spiritual discernment acquired only by years
of study, prayer, and contemplation.
The difficulty in understanding scripture would have been
especially true of believers from among the Gentiles who
were less familiar with the usus loquendi (manner of speech)
of the prophets. The language of the prophets evoking
images of the heavens on “fire” and earth “dissolving”
under intense heat doubtless presented a great challenge
to Gentile believers. How was such language to be taken?
Was the physical creation really to be utterly destroyed?
What about language that described Christians being
“caught up” to meet Christ in the air? Would Christians
really be changed and be borne away bodily to heaven
at Christ’s return? What interpretive principles were to
guide their (and our) understanding?
Evidence of the difficulty the early church had in gaining
a command of prophetic writings may be seen in the idea
of the “rapture”. The idea of a bodily rapture, a notion
strongly connected with a bodily resurrection, gained
currency in the early church. The apostle John alludes
to this when he reports that the fact he was to live until
Christ’s return gave rise to the belief he would be
rapturously borne away and never die: “Peter seeing him
saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus
saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is
that to thee? Follow thou me. Then went this saying
abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should
not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die;
but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to
thee?” (Jno. 21:21-23). Having reported the popular
misconception among the early brethren, John disallows
entirely that his remaining alive until Jesus’ return meant
he would not suffer death. In another place, Jesus made
the like announcement: “For the Son of man shall come
in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he
shall reward every man according to his works. Verily
I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man
coming in his kingdom.” (Matt. 16:27, 28). Notice
that Jesus did not say death would cease at his coming.
He merely said some would not taste death before he came.
Jesus would come before they tasted death and only then
would they die. Read together, it is clear that John was
to be one of those people. Thus, the idea that Jesus’
coming entailed an end of physical existence in which
the righteous would be borne away to heavenly portals
was simply without basis and was not the teaching of
Christ or the apostles. There was to be no bodily rapture.
Misunderstanding was not limited to the rapture.
Some wrestled with the resurrection itself, questioning
or denying its very possibility. Questions about the
resurrection entailed the sort of body men would receive
(I Cor. 15:35). Questions of this sort occurred also among
the Jews. The Sadducees, although denying the resurrection,
clearly conceived that any putative resurrection would occur
in the flesh. Because of this conception, the Sadducees
believed they had discovered an indissoluble dilemma,
refuting the notion of the resurrection, by the question
about the seven brothers who had one woman to wife,
asking, “Whose wife would she be in the resurrection,
since each had her?” (Matt. 22:23-33). The basic assumption
is that the resurrection would be physical and therefore
entail marriage. It is unclear whether this was the popular
conception of the resurrection or merely the Sadducees’
idea of it. The better view probably is that it reflected
popular belief, for it would hardly make sense for the
Sadducees to propound a hypothetical about the fact
and nature of the resurrection that was peculiar merely
to themselves, and not shared by the community at large.
In that case, the question would refute only their notion
of the resurrection, but not that of the general public,
whose belief it was their objective to dislodge. Hence,
the necessary and reasonable inference is that it reflected
the general understanding of the Jews of Jesus’ day.
But, whether it be this or that, one thing is clear: Jesus
disallowed the concept entirely. First, by proof that the
patriarchs had not ceased to exist, but were participants
in the first resurrection in hades paradise (vv. 31, 32);
second, by showing that in the general resurrection men
would subsist in the form of angels (vv. 29, 30). The
resurrection would not be physical; hence there would
be no marriage.
Jewish misunderstanding about the nature of the
resurrection had its counterpart in the church which
Paul labored to correct. He dispensed with the idea
of a physical resurrection by his statement “And that
which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that
shall be” (I Cor. 15:37). Could it be any clearer?
The body that is sown (buried) is not the body that
is reaped. A physical body is planted, but a spiritual
body is raised up. “So also is the resurrection of
the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in
incorruption…It is sown a natural body; it is raised
a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15:42, 43). There is simply
no credible way to read physical bodies into the text
and spiritual bodies out. The mistake lies in the
assumption that the resurrection would occur upon
earth and, hence, be earthly. However, a physical
grave cannot retain the spirits of the deceased.
The grave had an immaterial counterpart called
hades where the spirits of the departed “slept”
pending the second resurrection.
(Lk. 16:19-31; 24:43) Since these souls were not bound
to their earthly bodies, it would not be necessary for
them to be reunited to their bodies in order to inherit
glory. Just the opposite, “flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption” (I Cor. 15:50). Absent from the body
is present with the Lord. (II Cor. 5:8)
Creeds and Confessions Embody Error of Early Church
Notwithstanding the apostle’s labors, error took root;
belief in a bodily rapture and resurrection of the dead
at Christ’s return gained currency and took up permanent
residence in the early church. Both are evidenced by the
creeds that grew up among believing Gentiles. For example,
the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus (c. 215 A.D.) thus
asks, “Do you believe…in the resurrection of the body?”.
Similarly, the Creed of Marcellus (340 A.D.) declares:
“I believe in…the resurrection of the body”. The Creed
of Rufinus (c. 404 A.D.) is more explicit and declares
“I believe in the resurrection of the flesh”. The Apostles’
Creed proclaims belief in the resurrection of the body,
but the Nicene Creed states only a belief in the
resurrection of the “dead”. Other creeds and confessions
holding to the resurrection of the flesh include the
Athanasian Creed, and the second London Confession
of 1689 (Baptist). Although the term “body” is ambiguous
and elastic enough to mean spiritual bodies, we may
assume that physical bodies was intended and understood.
Thus, the creeds perpetuated the error of the Jews and
early church in a physical resurrection. The error reported
by John that there was to be a bodily rapture at the Lord’s
return also survived and has continued to this day.
The heirs to the creeds were the articles and confessions
of faith of later centuries. For example, chapter XXXII
of the Westminster Confession - Of the State of Men
after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead - states:
1. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see
corruption: but their souls, which neither die nor sleep,
having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God
who gave them: the souls of the righteous, being then made
perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens,
where they behold the face of God, in light and glory,
waiting for the full redemption of their bodies. And the
souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain
in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment
of the great day. Beside these two places, for souls
separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth
none.
2. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die,
but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up,
with the self-same bodies, and none other (although
with different qualities), which shall be united again
to their souls for ever.
3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ,
be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His
Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His
own glorious body.
Notice the confused eschatology here that has the souls
of the dead by-passing hades and going immediately
to heaven where they behold the face of God, there
awaiting the redemption of their bodies, to which they
are subsequently forced to return. What possible purpose
could there be in reuniting the spirits of the saints with
their earthly bodies? Being in a state suited to behold
the face of God in perfect holiness, what is the need
to clothe them again with houses of clay? Having begun
in the spirit are they made perfect by the flesh? Such
is the garbled teaching of the Westminster Confession.
Another doctrinal statement holding to the resurrection
of the flesh is the Belgic Confession (Reformed Church):
“Finally we believe, according to God's Word, that when
the time appointed by the Lord is come (which is unknown
to all creatures) and the number of the elect is complete,
our Lord Jesus Christ will come from heaven, bodily
and visibly, as he ascended, with great glory and majesty,
to declare himself the judge of the living and the dead.
He will burn this old world, in fire and flame, in order
to cleanse it. Then all human creatures will appear
in person before the great judge-- men, women,
and children, who have lived from the beginning until
the end of the world. They will be summoned there
by the voice of the archangel and by the sound of
the divine trumpet. For all those who died before
that time will be raised from the earth, their spirits
being joined and united with their own bodies in
which they lived. And as for those who are still alive,
they will not die like the others but will be changed
‘in the twinkling of an eye’ from ‘corruptible to
incorruptible.’”
The notion that Christ would return “bodily and visibly”
is closely related to the idea of a bodily rapture and
a fleshly resurrection. Hence, the Belgic Confession
weaves all three of these concepts together. Bodies,
by definition, are confined by time and space. But
Jesus is “ascended far above all heavens, that he might
fill all things.” (Eph. 4:10). Only spirit is unbound
by time and space and can fill all things. Hence, Jesus
is no longer in bodily form, at least in any earthly
meaning and conception of that term. Rather, he is
Spirit (I Cor. 15:45; II Cor. 3:17). Colossians is not
to the contrary. When Col. 2:9 states that in Christ
“dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”,
the apostle is not referring to Christ’s form or appearance.
He is referring to fulness of divine authority and God’s
redemptive purpose that the Father embodied in Christ.
Under the Mosaic law man was incomplete; “for the law
made nothing perfect.” (Heb. 7:19). But “ye are complete
in him, which is the head of all principality and power.”
(Col. 2:10). The law was wistful, “a shadow of things to
come; but the body is of Christ.” (Col. 2:17). The “body”
here speaks to the tangible nature of things come, the
substance and reality of the promises embodied in Christ
of which the law was but a shadow and type. Because
Christ is not in bodily form he is invisible to human eye.
After his ascension, visions of Jesus required special
revelation of the Spirit (Rev. 1:10 et seq; cf. Acts 9:7).
The doctrine of Christ’s bodily and visible return is
erroneous. His coming would not be bodily, it would
be providential; it would not be visible, it would be
historically discernable. In Matt. 24:30, Jesus said
there would “appear” the sign of the Son of man ruling
in heaven in the events marking the destruction of the
city and temple. Speaking to his coming in wrath and
vengeance upon the nation of the Jews, Jesus told the
Sanhedrin, “I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting
on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds
of heaven.” (Mk. 14:62; cf. Matt. 24:30). This is the
same coming “in his kingdom” Jesus told the apostles
would transpire while some of them were still alive
(Matt. 16:27, 28; Mk. 8:38-9:1).
The idea that the “self-same” physical bodies are to
be raised up at the last day is every bit as erroneous
as the “visible, bodily” return of Christ. Not one verse
of scripture can be marshaled to establish such claim.
Jesus’ statement that all who are in the graves would
hear his voice and come forth (Jno. 5:25-29) neither
says nor implies the resurrection of physical bodies.
The redemption of men’s bodies is no part of the
redemptive work of Christ. Those holding this view
place the resurrection on the wrong side of eternity.
They place the resurrection in the temporal realm of
the flesh, rather than the eternal realm of the spirit
where it should be.
Modern Apologists
Modern apologists are not wanting for these ancient errors.
One prominent member of this description is Kenneth L.
Gentry Jr. Gentry, who has done a good deal of valuable
work in other areas, is sorely wanting in this particular
area of endeavor. He is a vociferous defender of a
resurrection of the flesh, denouncing as heterodox all
who venture to disagree. Taking cheap shots at Preterists
from the safety of his ivory tower, he refuses to do battle
in public debate. Gentry asserts that “If Christ was
physically raised from the dead, then so shall we,
for He is the "first-fruits" of our resurrection. The only
way around our physical resurrection is to deny Christ's
physical resurrection.”. This is poor argumentation.
Reduced to a syllogism, Gentry’s argument looks like this:
Major premise: Christ was raised physically.
Minor premise: Christ was the “first-fruits” of our
resurrection; therefore:
Conclusion: Our resurrection will be physical like Christ’s.
It does not take a logician to see that the conclusion
does not follow from the premises. Furthermore,
Gentry’s conclusion is based upon an unproved premise:
there is no evidence that the term “first-fruits” applies
to man’s body and much against it. Like virtually
every other bodily resurrection recorded in scripture,
Jesus’ resurrection first and foremost was evidentiary;
it was intended to serve as a demonstration of God’s
power and work among his people. Rom. 1:4 says
Jesus was “declared to the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection
from the dead.”. In the resurrection, God declared
Jesus to be his Son, vindicating Jesus’ claims during
his life. But this could not be accomplished without
the resurrection of Jesus’ body. Had God merely wafted
Jesus’ spirit to heaven, there would have been no objective
proof of Christ’s Sonship. To the contrary, the continuing
presence of the body in the tomb would have shown Jesus
a fraud and a liar. In fact, the very purpose behind the
open tomb was so that man could go in and see the Lord
was risen indeed, not so Jesus could come out. The bodily
resurrection of the Lord provided empirical evidence that
Jesus was the Son of God, of which the apostles were
made witnesses (Mk. Lk. 24:48; Acts 1:8). The bodily
resurrection of Christ thus served a unique purpose that
makes Jesus’ resurrection unlike our own. The Hebrew
writer speaks to the resurrection of Christ when he states
that Jesus “in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up
prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto
him that was able to save him from death, and was heard
in that he feared.” (Heb. 5:7). Notice that “the days of
his flesh” are set over against Jesus’ present form when
he is ascended into heaven and set down at the right hand
of God. Jesus is no longer in fleshly form and it is unto
this hope that believers aspire, not the reunion of their
spirits with their earthly bodies.
Another argument by Gentry is that the “spiritual
(pneumatikos) body” of I Cor. 15:44 is no more immaterial
than the “natural (psuchikos) body”. This rather startling
assertion is based upon use of the terms pneumatikos
(spiritual) and psuchikos (natural) to describe the
Christian over against the unbeliever:
“But the natural (psuchikos) man receiveth not the things
of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned. But he that is spiritual (pneumatikos)
judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”
(I Cor. 2:14, 15).
The terms “natural” and “spiritual” in this context speak
to the “driving force” or controlling principle in the
individuals’ lives, not their material or immaterial state.
Hence, Gentry argues, the “spiritual body” of I Cor. 15:44
speaks only to its controlling principle, not its material
or immaterial form. Therefore, although in the resurrection
the body will actually be physical, it will qualitatively be
“spiritual”. Or, so at least Gentry would have us believe.
The better view, however, is that the term “spiritual” in
I Cor. 15:44 is substantive, not qualitative, and that the
body of the resurrection will be intangible, immaterial,
and eternal. The spiritual man has a physical body only
because he has not yet put it off in death. Upon the death
of the body, the inner man lives on, clothed upon with a
spiritual body of life. “But though our outward man perish,
yet the inward man is renewed day by day.” (II Cor. 4:16).
“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, and house
not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, made
without hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we
groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our
house which is from heaven.” (II Cor. 5:1). The
“earthly house” is the fleshly body of this material realm.
Upon death, it is replaced by a spiritual and immaterial
house from heaven. Since it is from heaven, it clearly
is not the “self same” earthly body put off in death.
In the resurrection we will be spirit beings with spiritual
bodies (Heb. 12:23; I Cor. 5:5). We will be as the angels
(Matt. 22:30): Intanglible, immaterial, imperishable,
and eternal.
Scriptures for the Resurrection of the Flesh
The reason Gentry argues for the resurrection of the flesh,
is that he believes the saints’ eternal reward is in the
material realm upon a new earth! “His elect people will
inherit the eternal estate in resurrected, physical bodies
(Jn. 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:20-28) so that we might dwell
in a material New Creation order (2 Pet. 3:8-13)”.
This belief is utterly fantastic coming from someone
of Gentry’s talent and ability. It stems from his belief
in Postmillennialism, which holds that God’s redemptive
purpose culminates in a redeemed, material creation.
Never mind countless statements in scripture pointing
to the fact that the saints inheritance is in heaven
(Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:1-3; I Thess. 4:17; I Tim. 6:7;
II Tim. 2:11; Heb. 11:13, 16; I Pet. 1:4) we are now
to believe that our eternal state is upon earth. Little
wonder Postmillennialists argue for the resurrection
of the flesh! Language mentioning a “new heaven
and earth” (Isa. 65:17: 66:22; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1)
is symbolic of the Messianic age, the regeneration
and restitution of all things in Christ (Matt. 19:28;
Acts 3:21). These came in fulness at the end of the
Mosaic age and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple
(Matt. 24:1-3, 34; cf. Eph. 1:21; Heb. 2:5; 6:5). They
were the “good things to come” of the law (Col. 2:17;
Heb. 10:1) and Christ’s High Priesthood (Heb. 9:11),
which early Christians groaned for and were in earnest
expectation (Rom. 8:19-23). Since references to the new
heaven and earth are symbolic, they must be interpreted
and brought into harmony with plain passages of scripture
elsewhere, not vice versa. Simply put, the idea that our
eternal state is on a redeemed earth is frivolous. It is
the stuff we have come to associate with Premillennialism,
not serious scholarship. The spiritually discerning will
reject it out of hand.
What about the resurrection of the flesh? Do advocates
of this school have any verses plainly making this claim?
Here are the verses cited by Gentry, our comments follow.
Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God.”
<Pastor Dave inserted note: It isn't really necessary
for him to argue this verse, because from the Hebrew,
it doesn't say "in my flesh" and this is simply bias on
the part of the Futurist translators. There are two
words here, that are translated into the phrase,
"in my flesh" ("min" and "basar"). If you look up
"min", you'll see, "out of" in the definition. But
he is not arguing that, but the fact that the verse
doesn't actually say, "resurrection", so it is worth
going over.>
This is the only verse in the Bible that makes reference
to the flesh in apparent connection with the resurrection.
“Apparent”, I say, because the verse does not actually
mention the resurrection. It is entirely possible that Job
looked to “see God” in this life time, as in fact he did.
“I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now
mine eye seeth thee.” (Job 42:5). However, even assuming
that the text posits a resurrection context, the Hebrew
of this verse is so ambiguous that scholars cannot decide
how it is to be translated. Hence, the marginal reading
gives the rendering, “After I shall awake, though this
body be destroyed, yet out of my flesh...” etc. Thus, it
is unclear what Job actually stated or said. Furthermore,
the book of Job is highly poetic; it is very possible that
his use of the term “flesh” was not intended to be taken
literally at all. Given that this is the only place in
scripture referring to the flesh in the context of the
resurrection, we would be well advised to opt for the
alternate rendering. At the very least, standing as it
does alone, no doctrine of scripture can be built upon it.
Isa. 26:19: “Thy dead men shall live, together with
my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye
that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.”
The historical context of this verse spoke to the
restoration of Israel to its land after the captivity.
The Jews were like “dead men” in the grave of captivity
in Babylon. “My dead body” refers to the Jews collectively.
This same image is given by Ezekiel in the prophecy of
the valley full of dry bones (Ezek. 27:1-14). This is the
standard interpretation, almost universally acknowledged
by the commentators. However, that there is also a Messianic
dimension to the passage that looks to the resurrection
of Christ and the salvation of believers cannot be denied.
Even so, other than Christ’s, the resurrection of physical
bodies is not mentioned. But, even if they were, the text
is couched in poetic terms, hence we would not want to
overly press the literalness of the passage in any event.
The bottom line: Physical bodies are nowhere set out.
Jno. 5:28, 29: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto
the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.”
As with Isa. 26:19, no physical bodies are mentioned.
All Jesus says is that those in the graves will come forth.
Contrary to Gentry’s assumption, Jesus did not say they
would come forth on this side of eternity. Daniel made
the like statement, saying, “many of them that sleep in
the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan. 12:2).
This language is obviously poetic: The dead do not “sleep”
in the earth; their spirits go to hades. Hence, the idea of
“waking” from the dust is merely accommodative; it points
to a coming day of salvation when the death would be
vanquished and man go to his long home with God and
Christ in heaven.
Rom. 8:11: “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus
from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from
the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his
Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
“Quickening” our mortal bodies does not refer to the
resurrection of the body, but the regenerative effects
of God’s spirit in man by the mortification of the flesh.
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13; cf. Gal. 5:24). This is the
more apparent in that the immediately preceding verse
Paul says “the body is dead because of sin.” (Rom. 8:10).
The saints at Rome were not dead and their bodies were
not dead either; the apostle is merely using a figure of
speech. As the source of fleshly lusts, the body is
spiritually “dead.” But by being brought into subjection
to the Spirit the body is figuratively quickened and made
an instrument of righteousness. Peter says substantially
the same thing: “For he that hath suffered in the flesh
hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the
rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to
the will of God.” (I Pet. 4:1). In other words, just as
man’s spirit is quickened and made alive by the new birth
(Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13), so the body is “quickened” as it
is brought into subjection to God’s spirit and its lusts
mortified.
Rom. 8:23: “And not only they, but ourselves also,
which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves
groan within ourselves , waiting for the adoption, to wit,
the redemption of our body.”
“They” are the Gentiles, “we ourselves” refers to the Jews;
the Jews had the firstfruits of the Spirit: “Of his own will
begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be
a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” (Jm. 1:18). The
gospel message began at Jerusalem and was preached
first to the Jews. Hence they were the firstfruits unto
God and the Lamb (Rev. 14:4; cf. Acts 3:26; 13:46;
Eph. 1:12, 13). Both Jews and Gentiles groaned, looking
for the adoption of their collective body, the church.
This occurred at the consummation in A.D. 70 when
the church was manifested as the sons of God and
received the decree of adoption by the destruction
of the Jewish state, and removal of the Mosaic system
and temple. Nowhere does the text mention either
the resurrection or physical bodies.
Phil. 3:20, 21: “For our conversation is in heaven; from
whence we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned
like unto his glorious body, according to the working
whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
The singular “our vile body” refers to the collective body
of Jews and Gentiles waiting for the redemption and adoption
of the church (Cf. Rom. 8:19-23). Until the consummation
in A.D. 70, the church was still under bondage of corruption
to sin and death was in earnest expectation of the promised
redemption (Eph. 1:13, 14). The change referred to here
is best understood as legal and soteriological, not bodily
or physical; it is the sanctification and cleansing of the
church by Christ, “that he might present it to himself a
glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such
thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
(Eph. 5:26, 27). The glorious church answers to the
glorious body of the Lord. The presentment of the church
to himself came at the consummation of the nuptials in
A.D. 70 (Rev. 19:7; 21:9, 10). Notwithstanding the
collective nature of this passage, by analogy we believe
the body of sin which is put off in death is replaced by
a glorious body in the resurrection of life. The glorified
body is not physical, but spiritual, unbounded by time
and space.
I Thess. 4:16: “For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall
rise first.”
We need only note that physical bodies are not mentioned.
The very next verse says that those living would be caught
up with them in the air “and so shall we ever be with the
Lord.” (v. 17). Unless the Lord is going to remain on earth
forever, this verse cannot be reconciled with the idea of
our eternal state being on a material new earth. Clearly,
the language is accommodative and not to be taken literally.
It is descriptive of the victory of the saints and their
translation to heaven as a matter of law at the
consummation (Col. 1:13, 3:1; Eph. 2:1, 6). Their final
translation to heaven as a matter of fact comes only upon
the death of the body. To be absent from the body is to
be present with the Lord. (II Cor. 5: 6, 8)
Scriptures against the Resurrection of the Flesh
These above verses are relied upon by advocates of
a resurrection of the flesh. As we have seen, the idea
of a physical resurrection is completely away from virtually
every scripture cited; the notion has no more basis than
the fanciful notion of man’s eternal state subsisting in a
“material New Created order”. Let us now look at a few
verses pointing to the resurrection of the spirit and the
inheritance of the saints in the immaterial realm of heaven.
Although dozens of verses might be marshaled, space does
not allow us to consider more than a few.
Lk. 23:43: “Verily I say unto thee, This day shalt thou be
with me in paradise."
These words, spoken by the Lord in the immediate reaches
of death, bore the promise of the first resurrection of the
spirit in hades paradise. Since physical bodies are no part
of the first resurrection, what basis is there to believe
they will be part of the second resurrection of the soul in
heaven? To the contrary, “flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God.” (I Cor. 15:50).
Jno. 3:5-7: “Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man
be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the
kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not
that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
This verse shows that there are two natures: one belonging
to the kingdom of heaven, one belonging to the earth.
The earthly nature and body do not enter the kingdom
of God, the spirit does.
Jno. 4:24: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
This verse is dispositive of the idea that physical bodies
have any part of the heavenly kingdom. In Lk. 24:38,
Jesus said “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I
myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh
and bones, as ye see me have.”. Since God is a Spirit,
and spirits do not have flesh and bones, it is axiomatic
that God does not have flesh and bone. Christ is now
a Spirit (I Cor. 15:45; II Cor. 3:17). In the resurrection,
Christians are to be made like unto Christ and God
(Ps. 17:15; Rom. 8:29; I Cor. 15:49). Hence, we will
be spirit-beings without flesh and bone.
Jno. 6:63: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh
profiteth nothing.”
The flesh profits nothing in terms of man’s redemption,
sanctification, and salvation. It is suitable only for
dwelling upon earth where life is bounded by time and
space and consigned to corruption. It is the spirit that
is quickened and receives eternal life, not the flesh.
Rom. 8:10: “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead
because of sin; but the Spirit is life
because of righteousness.”
The body is the source of sin and temptation. “The
flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other.”
(Gal. 5:17). If the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, it is
hardly possible that it will be saved. If men are to be
restored to the original state of the creation before the
fall as Postmillennialists assert, like Adam they will be
susceptible to sin and temptation arising in the flesh.
Unless we are prepared to believe the whole race is to
be exposed to the risk of a second fall, we must reject
this fanciful scheme.
I Cor. 5:5: “Deliver such an one unto Satan for the
destruction of the flesh, that the spirit
may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
“Destruction” of the flesh here is best understood in terms
of its mortification by denying its affections and lusts.
By excommunicating those overtaken in sin, they are
brought to shame and repentance, leading to the denial
and destruction of the flesh. By thus “crucifying the
flesh” (Gal. 5:24), the spirit is restored to purity,
suitable unto salvation. The flesh expressly excluded
from the spirit’s salvation.
I Cor. 15:44, 49, 50: “It is sown a natural body; it is
raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and
there is a spiritual body…As we have borne the image
of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot
inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption
inherit incorruption.”
Here are several plain statements that set the earthly and
fleshly body over against the spiritual and heavenly body.
The image of the earthy consists in a natural, fleshly body
and carnal mind. The image of the heavenly consists in
a regenerated mind and an immaterial body. The natural
and material body of earth is corruptible; the heavenly
and immaterial body of the spirit is incorruptible. The
promise of the resurrection is of an immaterial body, like
unto Christ and the angels of God in heaven (Matt. 22:25).
II Cor. 4:16-18: “For which cause we faint not; but though
our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed
day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a
moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal
weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are
seen, but at the things which are not see: for the things
which are seen are temporal; but the things which are
not seen are eternal.”
The material is visible and temporal; the immaterial is
invisible and eternal. Although the outward and material
man perish, the inward, immaterial man is renewed day
by day. The body will perish, but the spirit will inherit
eternal life.
II Cor. 5:1: “For we know that if our earthly house of
this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”
Our “earthly house” refers to our mortal bodies of flesh;
“this tabernacle” refers to this temporal realm, the
tabernacle of the material heavens and earth. Dissolution
of our earthly house speaks to putting off the body
in death. The “building of God, not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens” speaks to our immortal, immaterial,
and spiritual bodies.
II Cor. 5:2, 3: “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring
to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.”
In the resurrection, we are clothed with our immaterial and
immortal house from heaven, not our fleshly, mortal bodies
of earth. “Naked” speaks to putting off the body of flesh
in death; “clothed” speaks to putting on the spiritual body
in the resurrection of life.
II Cor. 5:6-8: “Therefore we are always confident, knowing
that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent
from the Lord (For we walk by faith not by sight:): We
are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from
the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
Could the apostle have made it more plain? We would be
absent from the body of flesh that we might be at home
with the Lord. If, in the resurrection we are reunited with
the body, we will again be at home in the body and absent
from the Lord. Clearly, that is no part of the Christian’s
hope.
Gal. 3:3: “Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit,
are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”
Those who hold that the “spirits of just men made perfect”
(Heb. 12:23) must be reunited with the flesh to be complete
and inherit eternal life, fall under the like condemnation
Paul reproaches the Galatians with. The completion of
man’s salvation is the union of spirit with God in heaven,
not being newly clothed upon with bodies of clay.
Heb. 11:13, 17: “These all died in faith, not having
received the promises, but having seen them afar off,
and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
anc confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims
on earth…But now they desire a better country, that
is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be
called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Note that the patriarchs and great men of faith were
strangers upon earth and looked for an heavenly city
and country. The notion that man’s eternal state is
in a material new earth is irresponsible and boarders
on heretical. It is an express denial of the scripture.
Heb. 12:23: “To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God
the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made
perfect.”
The spirits of the righteous who died before Christ were
not wanting bodies, but atonement. With the “blood of
sprinkling” (v. 22) they were made wholly perfect and
the way into heaven opened to them. What need have
they of fleshly bodies seeing they are already perfect?
Moreover, the general assembly of the firstborn (the church)
are written in heaven, not a new earth. Our conversation
is in heaven (Phil. 3:20); we are to set our affections
there (Col. 3:1) because that is the place of our eternal
abode (Heb. 12:10, 13, 16).
I Pet. 4:6: “For for this cause was the gospel preached
also unto them that are dead, that they might be judged
according to men in the flesh, but live according to God
in the spirit.”
This verse likely speaks to the saints of prior ages who had
the gospel preached to them in the types and similitudes of
the Old Law. Although condemned by the law according to
men in the flesh, they were justified by the atoning blood
of Christ that they might live according to God in the
spirit. To be reunited with bodies of clay is no part of
the divine purpose.
Rev. 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, small and great stand
before God; and the books were opened: and another book
was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were
judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead
which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead
which were in them: and they were judged every man
according to their works.”
Here is imagery portraying judgment day. We note that
physical bodies are conspicuously absent. The dead stand
before God. That they are “dead”, signifies they are on
the other side of eternity in the realm of the spirit, not
upon earth. The “sea” is symbolic of tartarus, the place
of the lost dead; “hell” (hades) speaks to paradise, the
place of the saints and martyrs. The dead come forth
from hades tartarus and paradise to receive their respective
rewards. The whole transaction is portrayed as occurring
in the realm of the spirit, not the flesh, in the immaterial
realm of eternity, and not time.
Conclusion
The error of the Jews and early church has been kept alive
by those today who look for a fleshly resurrection upon
earth. The earthly resurrection of the believer is related
to the error of the bodily, visible return of Christ and
the bodily rapture of the saints. By very definition,
the spiritual realm is eternal and immaterial. Flesh and
blood bodies are bounded by time and space and therefore
cannot inherit incorruption. Let us hold fast to our hope
for we will reap in due time.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/simmons_kurt_03_p_03.html
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in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate the plain
truth about the resurrection. But preterists MUST promote
this glaring lie, because it's obvious the saints vile,
mortal, corruptible bodies did not put on immortality and
incorruption, and rise from the dead, in A.D. 70, or at any
time since! Preterists are FORCED to spiritualize everything
about the resurrection, or else their whole system of lies
comes crashing to the ground!
Only a "fool" would believe you can raise from the dead, that
which did not "die" (1 Cor. 15:36). Believers receive "every"
spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ (Eph. 1), and
are raised from the dead, spiritually, the moment God gives
them saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1ff.). Their soul, then
cannot "die", and be brought back to life. Neither would
wrapping a completely different body that never died in the
first place, around a soul which was not dead, constitute a
"resurrection" from the "dead".
Preterists try to confuse the fact the resurrected body will
be different than it was when it was dead, with the lie that
it is therefore not even the dead body which rises from the
dead! Go look inside the cocoon of a butterfly that emerges,
and see if there is a dead caterpillar in there! There is
not! The body which emerges from the tomb is radically
different, in that it is incorruptible and glorious. It is
not, however, a second body that exists apart from the one
that died!
It _IS_ our vile, dead bodies which will be transformed and
raised from the dead, as a glorious, incorruptible body, which
is different than it was before, not a second body, which
never died in the first place, being wrapped around a soul
which did not die when the body it formerly lived in died.
This didn't happen in A.D. 70, or any time since. Preterism
is a brazen lie.
The Gnostic lie of preterism is that if you believe God's
promises in any way include or pertain to that which is
physical (such as the physical resurrection of believer's
bodies from the grave, or Christ's literal, physical return
and reign on earth), that somehow makes you "all about the
physical", as if you must therefore be carnal to believe such
a thing, and as if preterists are therefore spiritual for
denying and rejecting it.
What the reader should understand is that preterism is FORCED
and BOUND to deny the bodily resurrection of the saints, from
their graves. Why? Simple. The saints bodies did not come
out of the grave in A.D. 70, and haven't at any time since! If
preterism allows, under any circumstances, that the
resurrection is, in fact a resurrection of the body which died
and was sown, it instantly and irreparably destroys their
entire system of preterist beliefs!
The Bible teaches there is a spiritual quickening, AND a
bodily resurrection. Confusing the two, preterism seeks to
eliminate the bodily resurrection, to prevent their system of
lies from being exposed and crashing to the ground.
1) The quickening mentioned in Ephesians is entirely
spiritual, and has no effect on your body whatsoever:
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and
sins;
This is how a person becomes alive from the dead, spiritually.
God gives them saving faith in the gospel, and the Holy Spirit
gives them a spiritual birth and life in God. Believers Paul
wrote to, already had this spiritual quickening at the time he
wrote to them. So when Paul spoke to believers of the
resurrection, he wasn't offering them the prospect of becoming
saved or regenerate in the first place, as if they were still
dead, spiritually. He was proclaiming the hope of their
bodily resurrection from the grave!
2) The Bible also speaks of a resurrection of the physical
body which died and was sown in the ground.
1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how
say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is
Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain,
and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we
have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised
not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are
yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are
perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all
men most miserable.
[1 Christ was not an unbeliever before he rose from the dead.
His resurrection was therefore not the resurrection of a
spiritually dead soul, but of the body in which He died.]
[2 Christ rose bodily, from the grave, in a glorified
transformation of the body that was sown. He showed the
disciples His hands and feet, and asked Thomas to thrust his
hand into His side (John 10:25-27). The body that died is the
one which rose, transformed, into a new and glorious,
spiritual body, yet had "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39).
[3 Our hope of being raised is based on the model of Christ
being raised, and that was a physical, bodily resurrection of
the body that died, yet which was transformed.]
[4 Look at verse 19! People who were already believers had
the "hope" of the resurrection! They were already spiritually
quickened, yet they still hoped to be raised from the dead!
They were not, at that point, hoping to be raised from
spiritual death, but from physical corruption!]
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and
with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except
it die:
[1 The question, right here, is with what kind of "body" do
the dead rise? The answer is, You "fool". Not only is it the
body which dies, which is quickened, it "is _NOT_ quickened",
"_EXCEPT_ it die" (emphasis mine). You can't "raise"
something from the dead, IF IT ISN'T DEAD. A spiritual,
glorified body was NEVER DEAD IN THE FIRST PLACE. Therefore,
such a glorified body COULD NOT BE RAISED FROM THE "DEAD".]
[2 It is "that which thou sowest", which is quickened. Did
you get that? The body you put in the ground, IS the body
which is made alive! If the body that you sowed just lay
there corrupting, while a second, completely different body is
added, then that is NOT WHAT YOU SOWED.
Some preterists talks about some "shell" that falls away, as
if the body is only the shell of the seed. But is that what
the passage says? No, the body IS the seed, not the "shell"
of a seed! When you put a "seed" into the ground, it is the
"seed" which transforms into a plant. You don't have a second
plant body coming out of nothing, while the seed lay dormant
in the ground!
Yet that's the idea preterists propose, is that the dead body
never does rise! Rather, some of them claim a second,
spiritual body that's invisible, constitutes the resurrection
body, and that the first one just continues to lay there
corrupting in the grave. To do so, they have to invent ideas,
change the meaning of things, and insert words into the
passage which aren't even there!
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that
shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some
other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to
every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of
flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and
another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the
terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the
moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth
from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown
in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living
soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that
which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is
the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and
as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall
also bear the image of the heavenly.
[1 AGAIN AND AGAIN, it says "IT IS SOWN...IT IS RAISED". It
_IS_ the "BODY" which is sown into the ground, which is raised
(emphasis mine)!
Some preterists try to confuse the fact that the resurrected
body is different than it was when it was sown, with the lie
that it is therefore a completely different, second body,
while the first one lay corrupting in the grave! That's not
what the passage says! When you plant a seed, the seed
doesn't lay there dormant and dead, while the plant grows out
of nothing at all, in a separate location! It IS the seed
itself, which is sown, which transforms into a new kind of
plant body!
[2 Even here in Corinthians 15, it says our resurrected body
will be like Christ's resurrected body. We shall "bear the
image" of the heavenly. Throughout 1 Corinthians 15, Christ's
resurrection serves as a model and basis of hope for the
resurrection of people who were already, spiritually, new
creatures!
3) Our resurrected bodies will be LIKE Christ's resurrected
body:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may
be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the
working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto
himself.
[A) It is our "vile body" that shall be "changed". It doesn't
say a second, completely different body will be added, while
the vile body lay corrupting in the grave, but that our "vile
body" shall be "changed".]
[B) Our "vile body" shall "change" and " be fashioned "LIKE
UNTO" Christ's body! That means our current, vile bodies will
be changed and transformed into a glorified, spiritual body,
which is LIKE UNTO Christ's glorified spiritual body.
[C) There is absolutely no basis, whatsoever, for the idea
that the resurrection of believers will be so radically
different from Christ's, as to not even include the
resurrection of their dead body!]
3) Christ rose in a glorified version of the body in which He
died, including "flesh and bones":
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as
ye see me have.
[Christ rose in a glorified version of the body in which He
died. The fact it is a spiritual body doesn't mean it cannot
also have "flesh and bones", be visible, and be touched and
felt by humans. And it was! Our body will be like His!]
Conclusion:
1) There is _ABSOLUTELY_ *NO* mistaking the fact it is the
"VILE BODY" in which you "DIE", and which is SOWN in the
ground, which is QUICKENED, and CHANGED to a new, glorious
body. "Thou fool"...there cannot be a quickening, or
resurrection of something, UNLESS _IT_ DIE. It _MUST_ be the
"BODY" which "DIE", which you SOW into the ground, which is
"CHANGED" and "RAISED", or else it ISN'T A RESURRECTION FROM
THE DEAD!
2) This body will be "like" Christ's, bearing the image of the
heavenly, and will therefore include "flesh and bones", just
as His did.
3) Preterism _MUST_ deny the dead body sown in the ground is
the one raised, because THERE WAS NO MASS BODILY RESURRECTION
IN A.D. 70, and there are STILL BELIEVERS DYING ALL THE
TIME!!! If preterists allow there is a bodily resurrection of
the dead bodies out of the grave, their whole system of lies
becomes exposed and comes crashing to the ground! Preterists
are FORCED and BOUND by the love of their own system of lies,
to deny the body sown is the one raised from the dead,
regardless of what the Bible says, no matter what lies they
have to tell to sustain their pet heresy!
The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
Fred A Stover
news:ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com...
>
> The Resurrection of the Flesh
>
> By Kurt M. Simmons
>
> Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
> what basis is there to believe they will be part of the
> second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
Your scripture is nonsense.
In the Lord's scriptures, the soul doesn't die but is in heaven at death.
2 Cor. 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.
Rev. 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which
they held:
It's the body is the dead part that is raised at the resurrection,
1 Thes. 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall
we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
His,
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
Spiritman
> a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42, 43). There is simply
> no credible way to read physical bodies into the text
> and spiritual bodies out. The mistake lies in the
> assumption that the resurrection would occur upon
> earth and, hence, be earthly. However, a physical
> grave cannot retain the spirits of the deceased.
> The grave had an immaterial counterpart called
> hades where the spirits of the departed "slept"
> pending the second resurrection.
>
> (Lk. 16:19-31; 24:43) Since these souls were not bound
> to their earthly bodies, it would not be necessary for
> them to be reunited to their bodies in order to inherit
> glory. Just the opposite, "flesh and blood cannot inherit
> the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
> incorruption" (I Cor. 15:50). Absent from the body
> is present with the Lord. (II Cor. 5:8)
>
> Creeds and Confessions Embody Error of Early Church
>
> Notwithstanding the apostle's labors, error took root;
> belief in a bodily rapture and resurrection of the dead
> at Christ's return gained currency and took up permanent
> residence in the early church. Both are evidenced by the
> creeds that grew up among believing Gentiles. For example,
> the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus (c. 215 A.D.) thus
> Similarly, the Creed of Marcellus (340 A.D.) declares:
I have read some of Kurt M. Simmons stuff just recently, and I must
say, Mr. Simmons has been blessed with a keen understanding, and has a
sharp and clear way of presenting it. (His work on the book of
Revelation, concerning the dating of Revelation entirely from
statements found within the book was amazing.)
Chuck Stamford
"®andy" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uvsfe3thpu96glqs6...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip Simmons article>
Absolutely excellent post! Couldn't add a word to it except thanks for
writing it.
Chuck Stamford
Pastor Dave
<Spir...@q.com> wrote:
>> The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>
>> By Kurt M. Simmons
>
>I have read some of Kurt M. Simmons stuff just recently, and I must
>say, Mr. Simmons has been blessed with a keen understanding, and has a
>sharp and clear way of presenting it. (His work on the book of
>Revelation, concerning the dating of Revelation entirely from
>statements found within the book was amazing.)
It was you who turned me on to the article.
I haven't even read it all yet. Haven't had time,
with the move and all. But I thought that some
might find it interesting.
Pastor Dave
<pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>
>>By Kurt M. Simmons
>
>This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate
>the plain truth about the resurrection.
And so starts Randy's attempt to spread lies,
to try to distract people from the fact that
he has no direct rebuttal.
Yes Randy, we're all Gnostics, because you said so,
to try to distract everyone.
When you have to resort to such tactics, it shows
that you have no proper rebuttal to the specific
statements posted.
You were right about one thing Randy. We are
forced to believe what we believe. We are forced
by the truth, which we cannot deny.
Pastor Dave
Yes, since you were speechless and couldn't refute it.
Neither did he, but you did enjoy him calling us names.
That's 'cause you're such a good, loving Christian, right?!
marrie...@hotmail.com
You projected this:
>Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection, what basis is there to believe they will be part of the second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
Since you presented this information, would you please explain how our
physical bodies are not a part of the first resurrection?
Ray
> yet not the wisdom of this world...But we speak the wisdom
> incorruption...It is sown a natural body; it is raised
> a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42, 43). There is simply
> no credible way to read physical bodies into the text
> and spiritual bodies out. The mistake lies in the
> assumption that the resurrection would occur upon
> earth and, hence, be earthly. However, a physical
> grave cannot retain the spirits of the deceased.
> The grave had an immaterial counterpart called
> hades where the spirits of the departed "slept"
> pending the second resurrection.
>
> (Lk. 16:19-31; 24:43) Since these souls were not bound
> to their earthly bodies, it would not be necessary for
> them to be reunited to their bodies in order to inherit
> glory. Just the opposite, "flesh and blood cannot inherit
> the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
> incorruption" (I Cor. 15:50). Absent from the body
> is present with the Lord. (II Cor. 5:8)
>
> Creeds and Confessions Embody Error of Early Church
>
> Notwithstanding the apostle's labors, error took root;
> belief in a bodily rapture and resurrection of the dead
> at Christ's return gained currency and took up permanent
> residence in the early church. Both are evidenced by the
> creeds that grew up among believing Gentiles. For example,
> the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus (c. 215 A.D.) thus
> asks, "Do you believe...in the resurrection of the body?".
> Similarly, the Creed of Marcellus (340 A.D.) declares:
> "I believe in...the resurrection of the body". The Creed
> there is a spiritual body...As we have borne the image
> on earth...But now they desire a better country, that
Chuck Stamford
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g0dve3luns6o8jupb...@4ax.com...
You still think that I actually concern myself with what names Randy or any
one else calls you. This from someone who has called me nearly every
insulting, vulgar, name in the book.
If you had an ounce of sense in that thick, demented head of yours, you'd
know that calling you by a name you don't deserve hurts the one doing it,
not you. So why should I, or anyone else, chastize Randy for calling you
names (which, btw, I didn't see happening a lot in his post in any case!)?
If you merit them, you've got no grip coming, and Randy's just speaking the
truth. If you don't, then it's Randy that's been hurt, so why should I
increase his hurt by jumping on him?
> That's 'cause you're such a good, loving Christian, right?!
See above.
®andy
in article <2rcve35r4vjkamfa5...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:27:19 -0500, ®andy
><pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
>> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
>> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>>
>>>By Kurt M. Simmons
>>
>>This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate
>>the plain truth about the resurrection.
>
>And so starts Randy's attempt to spread lies,
>to try to distract people from the fact that
>he has no direct rebuttal.
_You_ have no rebuttal for the plane teaching of the Bible,
and your glaring preterist lies do not even warrant a
rebuttal.
The preterist attempt to work it's way around the plain
teaching on the resurrection is an obvious and glaring batch
of lies. The Bible clearly teaches it is a resurrection of
that which die, of the mortal, and of the corruptible, and
only believer's physical bodies meet that criteria, since
their souls do not die once they are saved, and wrapping some
body that was never dead in the first place, around a living
soul, is not a resurrection from the dead.
Preterism has to look right at the clear teaching that the
saints vile, mortal, corruptible bodies will rise from the
dead, and boldly contend it means anything but what it plainly
states. You MUST lie and obfuscate everything the Bible says
about it, because you cannot defend the fact the resurrection
did not occur in A.D. 70, or at any time since. You don't
even warrant a rebuttal, because you haven't provided anything
but glaring lies to try and cover the lie of preterism.
Sam Taylor
then later say "touch Me"
if He had no resurected body?
Pastor Dave
wrote:
I will not answer your post, because you haven't
turned on your word wrap feature. If you need
help with that, please tell me what software you
use and I'll see if I can help you get it set.
Pastor Dave
<shell__...@cox.net> wrote:
Thank you for proving my point, Chuckles.
Pastor Dave
<pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:18:30 -0400,
> in article <2rcve35r4vjkamfa5...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:27:19 -0500, ®andy
>><pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
>>> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
>>> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>>>
>>>>By Kurt M. Simmons
>>>
>>>This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate
>>>the plain truth about the resurrection.
>>
>>And so starts Randy's attempt to spread lies,
>>to try to distract people from the fact that
>>he has no direct rebuttal.
>
>
>_You_ have no rebuttal for the plane teaching of the Bible,
Translation: You suck Dave, because you're right!
Fred A Stover
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:42:42 -0700, Spiritman
> <Spir...@q.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>>
>>> By Kurt M. Simmons
>>
>>I have read some of Kurt M. Simmons stuff just recently, and I must
>>say, Mr. Simmons has been blessed with a keen understanding, and has a
>>sharp and clear way of presenting it. (His work on the book of
>>Revelation, concerning the dating of Revelation entirely from
>>statements found within the book was amazing.)
>
> It was you who turned me on to the article.
> I haven't even read it all yet. Haven't had time,
> with the move and all. But I thought that some
> might find it interesting.
1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
Rev. 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood,
saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that
worship therein.
Fred A Stover
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:27:19 -0500, ®andy
> <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
>> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
>>
>>>The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>>
>>>By Kurt M. Simmons
>>
>>This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate
>>the plain truth about the resurrection.
>
> And so starts Randy's attempt to spread lies,
> to try to distract people from the fact that
> he has no direct rebuttal.
>
> Yes Randy, we're all Gnostics, because you said so,
> to try to distract everyone.
No, Satan, the book of Simmons isn't in my Bible either.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:06:05 -0500, 家ndy
> <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:18:30 -0400,
>> in article <2rcve35r4vjkamfa5...@4ax.com>,
>> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>><pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:09:01 -0400,
>>>> in article <ogkfe3d05f1qq6o7i...@4ax.com>,
>>>> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Resurrection of the Flesh
>>>>>
>>>>>By Kurt M. Simmons
>>>>
>>>>This is an absolute lie and attempt to obfuscate
>>>>the plain truth about the resurrection.
>>>
>>>And so starts Randy's attempt to spread lies,
>>>to try to distract people from the fact that
>>>he has no direct rebuttal.
>>
>>
>>_You_ have no rebuttal for the plane teaching of the Bible,
>
> Translation: You suck Dave, because you're right!
Translation: "I, Dave, do suck, because I can't rebut the bible, so,
instead, I'll just throw out insults to cover my incompetence."
Ike
Pastor Dave
The Resurrection of the Flesh
By Kurt M. Simmons
Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
yet not the wisdom of this world…But we speak the wisdom
of a physical resurrection by his statement “And that
which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that
shall be” (I Cor. 15:37). Could it be any clearer?
The body that is sown (buried) is not the body that
is reaped. A physical body is planted, but a spiritual
body is raised up. “So also is the resurrection of
the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in
incorruption…It is sown a natural body; it is raised
a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15:42, 43). There is simply
no credible way to read physical bodies into the text
and spiritual bodies out. The mistake lies in the
assumption that the resurrection would occur upon
earth and, hence, be earthly. However, a physical
grave cannot retain the spirits of the deceased.
The grave had an immaterial counterpart called
hades where the spirits of the departed “slept”
pending the second resurrection.
(Lk. 16:19-31; 24:43) Since these souls were not bound
to their earthly bodies, it would not be necessary for
them to be reunited to their bodies in order to inherit
glory. Just the opposite, “flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption” (I Cor. 15:50). Absent from the body
is present with the Lord. (II Cor. 5:8)
Creeds and Confessions Embody Error of Early Church
Notwithstanding the apostle’s labors, error took root;
belief in a bodily rapture and resurrection of the dead
at Christ’s return gained currency and took up permanent
residence in the early church. Both are evidenced by the
creeds that grew up among believing Gentiles. For example,
the Interrogatory Creed of Hippolytus (c. 215 A.D.) thus
asks, “Do you believe…in the resurrection of the body?”.
Similarly, the Creed of Marcellus (340 A.D.) declares:
“I believe in…the resurrection of the body”. The Creed
(Col. 2:10). The law was wistful, “a shadow of things to
Modern Apologists
“But the natural (psuchikos) man receiveth not the things
of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned
like unto his glorious body, according to the working
whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
Jesus said “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I
myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh
and bones, as ye see me have.”. Since God is a Spirit,
I Cor. 15:44, 49, 50: “It is sown a natural body; it is
raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and
there is a spiritual body…As we have borne the image
of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
on earth…But now they desire a better country, that
Conclusion
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/simmons_kurt_03_p_03.html
Mark T
> Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
> what basis is there to believe they will be part of the
> second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
SO ..................
Jesus of Nzareth wasn't raised in a physical body?
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
®andy
living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
Abrams1117
> The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
> living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
> and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
> sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
> The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
> bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
> received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
>
' The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
received saving faith in Christ'
You’re using ‘soul’ to mean ‘spirit’.
‘Souls’ can die.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the
soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:3-5
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the
wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Strong’s definition of ‘soul’; 5590
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in
breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
Are these ‘souls’ (5590) spirits?
Mat 2:20 Saying 3004 , Arise 1453 , and take 3880 the young child 3813
and 2532 his 846 mother 3384, and 2532 go 4198 into 1519 the land 1093
of Israel 2474: for 1063 they are dead 2348 which 3588 sought 2212 the
young child's 3813 life 5590.
Mat 6:25 Therefore 1223 5124 I say 3004 unto you 5213, Take no 3361
thought 3309 for your 5216 life 5590, what 5101 ye shall eat 5315 , or
2532 what 5101 ye shall drink 4095 ; nor yet for 3366 your 5216 body
4983, what 5101 ye shall put on 1746 . Is 2076 not 3780 the life 5590
more than 4119 meat 5160, and 2532 the body 4983 than raiment 1742?
Mat 10:39 He that findeth 2147 his 846 life 5590 shall lose 622 it
846: and 2532 he that loseth 622 his 846 life 5590 for my 1700 sake
1752 shall find 2147 it 846.
Mat 16:25 For 1063 whosoever 3739 302 will 2309 save 4982 his 846
life 5590 shall lose 622 it 846: and 1161 whosoever 3739 302 will lose
622 his 846 life 5590 for 1752 0 my 1700 sake 1752 shall find 2147 it
846.
Mat 20:28 Even as 5618 the Son 5207 of man 444 came 2064 not 3756 to
be ministered unto 1247 , but 235 to minister 1247 , and 2532 to give
1325 his 846 life 5590 a ransom 3083 for 473 many 4183.
Mar 3:4 And 2532 he saith 3004 unto them 846, Is it lawful 1832 to do
good 15 on the sabbath days 4521, or 2228 to do evil 2554 ? to save
4982 life 5590, or 2228 to kill 615 ? But 1161 they held their peace
4623 .
Mar 8:35 For 1063 whosoever 3739 302 will 2309 save 4982 his 846 life
5590 shall lose 622 it 846; but 1161 whosoever 3739 302 shall lose 622
his 846 life 5590 for 1752 my sake 1700 and 2532 the gospel's 2098,
the same 3778 shall save 4982 it 846.
Mar 10:45 For 1063 even 2532 the Son 5207 of man 444 came 2064 not
3756 to be ministered unto 1247 , but 235 to minister 1247 , and 2532
to give 1325 his 846 life 5590 a ransom 3083 for 473 many 4183.
Luk 6:9 Then 3767 said 2036 Jesus 2424 unto 4314 them 846, I will ask
1905 you 5209 one thing 5101; Is it lawful 1832 on the sabbath days
4521 to do good 15 , or 2228 to do evil 2554 ? to save 4982 life 5590,
or 2228 to destroy 622 [it]?
Luk 9:24 For 1063 whosoever 3739 302 will 2309 save 4982 his 846 life
5590 shall lose 622 it 846: but 1161 whosoever 3739 302 will lose 622
his 846 life 5590 for my 1700 sake 1752, the same 3778 shall save 4982
it 846.
Luk 9:56 For 1063 the Son 5207 of man 444 is 2064 0 not 3756 come
2064 to destroy 622 men's 444 lives 5590, but 235 to save 4982 [them].
And 2532 they went 4198 to 1519 another 2087 village 2968.
All of these verses describe the same trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53:
15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed,
15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:
4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning
them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep in Jesus will G-D bring with him.
4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep.
4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of G-D: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we
ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall
begin to sound, the mystery of G-D should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets.
Revelation 11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,
saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our
Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:13:49 -0500, 家ndy
> <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
>>living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
>>and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
>>sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
>>The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
>>bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
>>received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
>
> "the saints dead bodies"? Quote that from Scripture.
>
> You hate the fact that it says that what is sown,
> is not what is raised and that a spiritual body
> comes up, not a physical one.
Liar.
Jesus had Thomas touch his hands and side so that he would know Jesus was
raised PHYSICALLY, and we shall be as Jesus is.
Hence, your doctrine is a lie.
[snip the rest of the nonsensical ravings of a madman]
Ike
Fred A Stover
> The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
> living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
> and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
> sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
> The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
> bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
> received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
Correction.
He says: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of
the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that
are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor 15:21-23).
The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
We were all condemned by Adam's sin, and we are redeemed from that death by
resurrection when the corruptable is changed incorruptable.
Question.
Do you think the knave argues with you thinking he will convert you to his
heresy?
Satan isn't that foolish. What he is doing is programming your thinking, and
you need to guard against it.
Abrams1117
> ®andy" <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:l6o6f310lkhr2ou21...@4ax.com...
>
> > The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
> > living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
> > and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
> > sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
> > The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
> > bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
> > received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
>
> Correction.
Correction?
>
> He says: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of
> the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
> But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that
> are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor 15:21-23).
>
> The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
>
> We were all condemned by Adam's sin, and we are redeemed from that death by
> resurrection when the corruptable is changed incorruptable.
>
> Question.
>
> Do you think the knave argues with you thinking he will convert you to his
> heresy?
>
> Satan isn't that foolish. What he is doing is programming your thinking, and
> you need to guard against it.
>
> His,
>
Fred A Stover
"Abrams1117" <John...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> ®andy" <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:l6o6f310lkhr2ou21...@4ax.com...
>
> > The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the
> > living! Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible,
> > and vile! Only their bodies are! "Thou fool, that which thou
> > sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36).
> > The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead
> > bodies, not their living souls, which occurred the moment they
> > received saving faith in Christ (Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 5:21)!
>
> Correction.
~Correction?
Clarification, perhaps.
The alive and remaining are among the resurrected.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
1) The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the living!
2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
Only their bodies are!
3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
faith in Christ.
4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
they that
are Christ's at his coming
5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
Questions:
1) The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the living!
Before the resurrection the saints are in Heaven?
2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
Only their bodies are!
The saints are in Heaven and their dead bodies are on Earth?
3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
faith in Christ.
The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
Heaven? While they were still alive?
4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
they that
are Christ's at his coming
At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
on Earth?
5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
Pastor Dave
The Resurrection of the Flesh
By Kurt M. Simmons
Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
what basis is there to believe they will be part of the
second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
The resurrection of the dead is a question fraught
Modern Apologists
I Thess. 4:16: “For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
spirit in hades paradise. Since physical bodies are no part
of the first resurrection, what basis is there to believe
they will be part of the second resurrection of the soul in
Conclusion
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/simmons_kurt_03_p_03.html
--
If you wouldn't say it in person, why say it online?
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
>
> The Resurrection of the Flesh
LOL
Jesus had doubting Thomas thrust his hands into Jesus' side and hands to
feel the scars so everyone would know His resurrection was LITERAL and
PHYSICAL.
But you do always ignore scripture.
Ike
TBC/Soggy ` `
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleb...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:WsPJi.3895$Pc3.3530@trndny09...
Nope, Thomas didn't, he just fell down and woshiped him. It was at the
previous appearence to the disciples when he ate the fish and bread that he
had them touch him, "A spirit has not flesh and bones".
I know it's easy to smack down Dave but these scriptures should give us JOY
and hope, Dave is lost in darkness.
Sam Taylor
AFTER He sinned, most consider these as some sort of loin cloth....
BUT.... what is if this was actualy our Skin?
the life in that body would be the Blood, and not the spirit
so he could live dead until He died dead.
Could it be the spiritual body is Flesh and bone instead of flesh and
blood?
and the Spiritual is the same body covered by the Spirit insead of
flesh?
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
news:e505$46f7cce5$d066ef45$66...@FUSE.NET...
Amen to that.
Ike
Pastor Dave
The fact is, that the post dealt with these things
and neither of you could dispute what the post
said and that's why it was snipped.
And Ike emphasized the wrong word. He should
have said...
"Jesus had doubting Thomas thrust his hands into
Jesus' side and hands to feel the scars so everyone
would know *_HIS_* resurrection was literal and
physical."
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Leave it to the liar to try and turn the facts around the wrong way: Jesus'
resurrection was literal and physical, hence His saying "A spirit is not
flesh and bones."
But let's not let something as little as the facts get in the way, right
Dave?
By the way, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon, Dave?
Ike
Sam Taylor
>
>By the way, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon, Dave?
>
>Ike
>
I ain't dave, and even Dave is glad bout that
607 BC to about 677BC was the babylonian captivity
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
news:tnfif3pmm10r1hvg9...@4ax.com...
Sorry, but Dave's name was at the top of the post.
By way of explanation, the reason I ask Dave the question is that, if the
Jews came out of Babylon prior to the coming of Christ (which they did), and
the temple was rebuilt (which is was), then, in the immediate literal sense,
Jeremiah's prophecies were fulfilled, and if they were fulfilled, then,
according to the Preterist rule, there can't be anything in the Old
Testament that applies to Jesus', for all those prophecies were already
"absolutely and immediately fulfilled" according to the Preterist rules.
(Which highlights how ridiculous the Preterist rules are.)
Ike
Fred A Stover
On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
Hello John,
~1) The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the living!
~2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
~Only their bodies are!
~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
~faith in Christ.
~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they
that
~are Christ's at his coming.
~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
~Questions:
~1) The resurrection is the resurrection of the dead, not the living!
~Before the resurrection the saints are in Heaven?
Since it is the bodies, not the souls which live again. This is generally
not addressed and where I think the differnce lies. There are two deaths
the mortal and the eternal, and the second death includes the body and the
soul (Matt 10:28), Our mortal bodies are fitted for destruction, having sin
dwelling within (Rom 7:20), and cannot enter the kingdom of God (1 Cor.
15:50-52).
If our living soul remained in the corruptible body with indwelling sin, we
would not enter the kingdom of God, but go to distruction. It is by the
changing of the body to incorruptible. That we are resurrected from the
second death.
I'm assuming this answers the question behind the questions. Am I right?
If not send it back.
~2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
~Only their bodies are!
~The saints are in Heaven and their dead bodies are on Earth?
~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
~faith in Christ.
~The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
~Heaven? While they were still alive?
~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
~they that are Christ's at his coming
~At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
~on Earth?
~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
~At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
~the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
His,
--
Fred A Stover
news:82tef3lrl9nopgrm5...@4ax.com...
>
> The Resurrection of the Flesh
>
> By Kurt M. Simmons
>
> Since physical bodies are no part of the first resurrection,
> what basis is there to believe they will be part of the
> second resurrection of the soul in heaven?
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As Satan once again shows his himself in knave.
Pastor Dave
Ike believes that everything has to be fulfilled three times
and when he couldn't prove that, he got the idea that this
stupid question fixes anything he can't dispute, as if any
date I gave, would somehow alleviate him from responding
to any and all questions and facts presented. He has been
so blinded by his doctrine, that he thinks this question
means that he has disputed the post I provided about
the resurrection.
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
I agree; but, that does not answer the question.
People seem to believe that a believer goes to Heaven at death and
lives there - then at the resurrection they are reunited with their
bodies. I do not believe that and am questioning that belief.
>
> ~2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
> ~Only their bodies are!
> ~The saints are in Heaven and their dead bodies are on Earth?
>
> ~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
> ~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
> ~faith in Christ.
>
> ~The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
> ~Heaven? While they were still alive?
>
> ~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
> ~they that are Christ's at his coming
>
> ~At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
> ~on Earth?
>
> ~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
>
> ~At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
> ~the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
>
> His,
>
>
> ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
> Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
> little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:04:04 -0700, Sam Taylor
> <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>By the way, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon, Dave?
>>>
>>>Ike
>>>
>>
>>I ain't dave, and even Dave is glad bout that
>>607 BC to about 677BC was the babylonian captivity
>
> Ike believes that everything has to be fulfilled three times
> and when he couldn't prove that, he got the idea that this
> stupid question fixes anything he can't dispute, as if any
> date I gave, would somehow alleviate him from responding
> to any and all questions and facts presented.
Nonsense.
1) I have proved it.
2) The question itself proves it, AND it proves the Preterism is nonsense.
> He has been
> so blinded by his doctrine, that he thinks this question
> means that he has disputed the post I provided about
> the resurrection.
LOL
Everyone has already disputed that nonsense.
So, Dave, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon?
Ike
Fred A Stover
On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
& I agree; but, that does not answer the question.
& People seem to believe that a believer goes to Heaven at death and
& lives there - then at the resurrection they are reunited with their
& bodies. I do not believe that and am questioning that belief.
Thanks, John, for letting me know.
I'll address the rest of the questions.
>
> ~2) Believer's souls are NOT dead, mortal, corruptible, and vile!
> ~Only their bodies are!
> ~The saints are in Heaven and their dead bodies are on Earth?
We are shown souls in heaven of the slain on earth:
Rev. 6:9-10
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which
they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy
and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the
earth?
> ~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
> ~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
> ~faith in Christ.
>
> ~The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
> ~Heaven? While they were still alive?
Scripture tells us we are conceived again of the Spirit, and what is
conceived of the Spirit is spirit:
John 3:6-8
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born
again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
every one that is born of the Spirit.
And scripture tells us we sit together in Christ in heavenly places in
Christ:
Ephes. 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus:
I've always saw this as our becoming Spirit and not leaving our bodies but
extending beyond our bodies into the heavens to our Father's house while
our bodies and souls remain on earth, and I've never questioned it.
I don't know of it, if there is scripture of our souls going to heaven when
we believe?
> ~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
> ~they that are Christ's at his coming
>
> ~At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
> ~on Earth?
The spirit of life, which enters them (Rev 11:11), is in their living souls.
> ~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
>
> ~At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
> ~the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
What I see is the living souls in a body being changed, not a reuniting.
I hope this helps.
His,
Fred
®andy
in article <8uslf31kk94ngqrjf...@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:04:04 -0700, Sam Taylor
><cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>By the way, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon, Dave?
>>>
>>>Ike
>>>
>>
>>I ain't dave, and even Dave is glad bout that
>>607 BC to about 677BC was the babylonian captivity
>
>Ike believes that everything has to be fulfilled three times
>and when he couldn't prove that, he got the idea that this
>stupid question fixes anything he can't dispute, as if any
>date I gave, would somehow alleviate him from responding
>to any and all questions and facts presented. He has been
>so blinded by his doctrine, that he thinks this question
>means that he has disputed the post I provided about
>the resurrection.
That you remain brazen, bold, shameless, and boastful in
promoting the glaring lie of preterism, despite the fact you
are routinely refuted on every point and every Scripture you
quote, only shows the futility of trying to reason with you.
You look right at lengthy passages of Scripture that
repeatedly demonstrate that the resurrection from the dead is
the resurrection/transformation of the dead seed which was
sown, then make up brazen lies like that the body is not
really the seed, as 1 Corinthians directly says it is, but
rather, is the "shell" of the seed, which you claim "falls
away". But see, your lies that you love force you to do
things like this at every point, because it is as obvious as
can be that the dead bodies of the saints were not raised from
the dead in A.D. 70, and you know it.
Never mind, you will invent your own reality, walk in the
imagination of your heart, then endlessly try to justify
yourself, as if everyone else is the defeated, arrogant, liar
you are.
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
You really should align Mathhew 24 and the seals they describe the
same events. These verses in Revelation describe the same event as the
saints being killed by the Beast. There is no mystery about what they
mean.
>
> > ~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
> > ~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
> > ~faith in Christ.
>
> > ~The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
> > ~Heaven? While they were still alive?
>
> Scripture tells us we are conceived again of the Spirit, and what is
> conceived of the Spirit is spirit:
>
> John 3:6-8
> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the
> Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born
> again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
> thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
> every one that is born of the Spirit.
>
Flesh is Flesh - Spirit is Spirit. You are born flesh and raised
Spirit, in the resurrection.
> And scripture tells us we sit together in Christ in heavenly places in
> Christ:
>
> Ephes. 2:6
> And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
> places in Christ Jesus:
>
> I've always saw this as our becoming Spirit and not leaving our bodies but
> extending beyond our bodies into the heavens to our Father's house while
> our bodies and souls remain on earth, and I've never questioned it.
>
> I don't know of it, if there is scripture of our souls going to heaven when
> we believe?
>
> > ~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
> > ~they that are Christ's at his coming
>
> > ~At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
> > ~on Earth?
>
> The spirit of life, which enters them (Rev 11:11), is in their living souls.
>
Ah, as far as I know, I am the only one saying this: Revelation 11:11
describes the resurrection. There is only one resurrection of the
saints. I learned this one by typing out scripture and aligning the
same events.
I learned 'much'.
> > ~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
>
> > ~At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
> > ~the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
>
> What I see is the living souls in a body being changed, not a reuniting.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> His,
>
> Fred- Hide quoted text -
Fred A Stover
On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
They do align with Matt 24 but Matthew 24 a longer period of time.
>
> > ~3) The resurrection is the resurrection of the saints dead bodies, not
> > ~their living souls, which occurred the moment they received saving
> > ~faith in Christ.
>
> > ~The moment they received saving faith thier living souls went to
> > ~Heaven? While they were still alive?
>
> Scripture tells us we are conceived again of the Spirit, and what is
> conceived of the Spirit is spirit:
>
> John 3:6-8
> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
> the
> Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born
> again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
> thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
> every one that is born of the Spirit.
>
<Flesh is Flesh - Spirit is Spirit. You are born flesh and raised
<Spirit, in the resurrection.
The word Jesus uses is gennao, saying that which is conceived of the Spirit
is
Spirit, which is the birth from the conception through the resurrection, and
in the time between the new is spirit and what remains of the old is flesh.
> And scripture tells us we sit together in Christ in heavenly places in
> Christ:
>
> Ephes. 2:6
> And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
> places in Christ Jesus:
>
> I've always saw this as our becoming Spirit and not leaving our bodies but
> extending beyond our bodies into the heavens to our Father's house while
> our bodies and souls remain on earth, and I've never questioned it.
>
> I don't know of it, if there is scripture of our souls going to heaven
> when
> we believe?
>
> > ~4) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward
> > ~they that are Christ's at his coming
>
> > ~At his coming these living souls will be united with the dead bodies
> > ~on Earth?
>
> The spirit of life, which enters them (Rev 11:11), is in their living
> souls.
>
< Ah, as far as I know, I am the only one saying this: Revelation 11:11
<describes the resurrection. There is only one resurrection of the
<saints. I learned this one by typing out scripture and aligning the
<same events.
Amen! We all are changed in the one twinkling of an eye.
Pastor Dave
<pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:08:06 -0400,
> in article <8uslf31kk94ngqrjf...@4ax.com>,
> Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:04:04 -0700, Sam Taylor
>><cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>By the way, when did the Jews come up out of Babylon, Dave?
>>>>
>>>>Ike
>>>>
>>>
>>>I ain't dave, and even Dave is glad bout that
>>>607 BC to about 677BC was the babylonian captivity
>>
>>Ike believes that everything has to be fulfilled three times
>>and when he couldn't prove that, he got the idea that this
>>stupid question fixes anything he can't dispute, as if any
>>date I gave, would somehow alleviate him from responding
>>to any and all questions and facts presented. He has been
>>so blinded by his doctrine, that he thinks this question
>>means that he has disputed the post I provided about
>>the resurrection.
>
>
>That you remain brazen, bold, shameless, and boastful in
>promoting the glaring lie of preterism, despite the fact you
>are routinely refuted on every point and every Scripture you
>quote, only shows the futility of trying to reason with you.
Insults and lies do not prove anything.
Especially since you are one of the ones
who snipped the post and responded
with insults.
::: good news :::
Fred A Stover <freds...@sbcglobal.net> typed:
> "Abrams1117" <John...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>> news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>
And a big Amen from me.
Abrams1117
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
Matthew 24 covers a longer period of time than the seals of
Revelation?
Do you realize you just said that the second coming happens in
Revelation chapter 11?
>
> <I learned 'much'.
>
>
>
> > > ~5) The alive and remaining are among His at His coming.
>
> > > ~At his coming the living saints living souls in Heaven are united with
> > > ~the bodies of the living saints on Earth?
>
> > What I see is the living souls in a body being changed, not a reuniting.
>
> > I hope this helps.
>
> > His,
>
> > Fred- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Abrams1117
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
Huh?
Notice verse 8.
1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the
Jews:
2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know
that thou art a teacher come from G-D: for no man can do these
miracles that thou doest, except G-D be with him.
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of G-D.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be
born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of G-
D.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
is every one that is born of the Spirit.
This verse describes someone that is born again:
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
is every one that is born of the Spirit.
>
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Fred A Stover
<Snip to point of current discussion>
> <You really should align Mathhew 24 and the seals they describe the
> <same events. These verses in Revelation describe the same event as the
> <saints being killed by the Beast. There is no mystery about what they
> <mean.
>
> They do align with Matt 24 but Matthew 24 a longer period of time.
>
<Matthew 24 covers a longer period of time than the seals of
<Revelation?
Yes.
Matt 24:4-13 provides an over view from the time of His speaking to the end:
"Take heed that no man deceive you...he that shall endure unto the end, the
same shall be saved.
Matt 24:14 The first seal (Rev 6:1-2, Ps 110:1)
Matt 24:15-22 Provides an overview from the second seal to the end (Rev
6:3-4, Dan 12:1):
Matt 24:23-28 addresses His coming in the flesh, quickly and visible
everywhere.
Matt 24:29-31 is an over view from the 6th seal to the seventh trump.
Matt 24:32-51 addresses His coming and our watching.
Yes, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of
his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).
We see it in Rev 11, Rev 14, Rev 19, too. There are chronologies in
Revelation but Revelation isn't chronological. There's one coming and these
are views of it.
Fred A Stover
On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
< Huh?
Here's another verse where gennao is translated conceived: " fear not to
take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived [gennao] in her is
of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 1:20).
<Notice verse 8.
<1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the
<Jews:
<2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know
<that thou art a teacher come from G-D: for no man can do these
<miracles that thou doest, except G-D be with him.
<3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
<Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of G-D.
<4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can
<he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
<5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be
<born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of G-
<D.
<6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
<the Spirit is spirit.
<7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
<8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
<thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
<is every one that is born of the Spirit.
<This verse describes someone that is born again:
Yes, but being born again, not having been born again. We come full term
when the woman (Rev 12) delivers the body of Christ (Jesus the head, and the
rest of the body).
We are spirit growing inthe Spirit.
<The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
<thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
<is every one that is born of the Spirit.
<snip old matter>.
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191094918.5...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> <Snip to point of current discussion>
>
> > <You really should align Mathhew 24 and the seals they describe the
> > <same events. These verses in Revelation describe the same event as the
> > <saints being killed by the Beast. There is no mystery about what they
> > <mean.
>
> > They do align with Matt 24 but Matthew 24 a longer period of time.
>
> <Matthew 24 covers a longer period of time than the seals of
> <Revelation?
>
> Yes.
OK, I see what you mean. I was thinking 'from' the seals to the end.
Revelation isn't in chronological order? I kind of noticed:
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191095432.1...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > wrote:
>
What/who is the woman?
> <The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
> <thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
> <is every one that is born of the Spirit.
>
> <snip old matter>.- Hide quoted text -
Kope
clash of civilization.
http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
Abrams1117
On Sep 29, 7:38 pm, Kope <kope22...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> i am a radical muslim please read my blog, read how islam will win the
> clash of civilization.http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
You never wonder why Almighty G-D has blessed every Christian country
throughout time? Why are they given everything? Why they invent
everything? Have the greatest minds? Scientists? Writers? Thinkers?
Control everything? Discover everything? Have the best land? Rain?
Water? Natural borders protecting them from attackers? Wealth? Power?
Might?
Read your blog? You should read the Bible.
America could not fight against Germany or Japan. They had better
weapons and forces. Do you think all of those Germans that saw
'Angels' on horseback fighting against them were all lying? That they
would run from the battle and tell their Nazi commanders a made up
story like that? That the miracle of Britain 'didn't' happen? I could
go on.
A Christian has an unfair advantage: His G-D is G-D.
Fred A Stover
On Sep 29, 2:20 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191095432.1...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > wrote:
>
# What/who is the woman?
She is the kingdom, Israel.
The manchild is the body of Christ, the church.
Rev. 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the
remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the
testimony of Jesus Christ.
Fred A Stover
> On Sep 29, 2:07 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1191094918.5...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <Snip to point of current discussion>
>>
>> > <You really should align Mathhew 24 and the seals they describe the
>> > <same events. These verses in Revelation describe the same event as the
>> > <saints being killed by the Beast. There is no mystery about what they
>> > <mean.
>>
>> > They do align with Matt 24 but Matthew 24 a longer period of time.
>>
>> <Matthew 24 covers a longer period of time than the seals of
>> <Revelation?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> OK, I see what you mean. I was thinking 'from' the seals to the end.
OK
I assumed you had, but added that for anyone who hadn't
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191112314.9...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 29, 2:20 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1191095432.1...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
1) She is the kingdom, Israel.
Agree: Joseph's dream. Joseph is the 12th star. Jacob his father is
the sun and his mother Rachel is the moon.
2) The manchild is the body of Christ, the church.
Huh?
T-y-p-e out the verses.
Revelation 12:1:
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the
sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
The woman is the nation of Israel.
Revelation 12:2:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered.
The child is Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:3:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
heads.
The Dragon is Satan:
Revelation 12:9:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the
Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The child of 12:2 is the same child of 12:4 and 12:5:
Revelation 12:4:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was
ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was
born.
Jesus Christ will rule the world as King of all the Earth.
Revelation 12:5A:
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron:
After his crucifixion and resurrection Jesus Christ ascended into
Heaven to G-D's Throne.
Revelation 12:5B:
and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
Its the same child; 12:2/4/5A&B.
> Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
>
>
> > <The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
> > <thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
> > <is every one that is born of the Spirit.
>
> > <snip old matter>.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Fred A Stover
On Sep 30, 1:36 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191112314.9...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 29, 2:20 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1191095432.1...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 29, 12:57 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1191024204.5...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Sep 27, 3:23 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:1190854151....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Sep 25, 6:25 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:1190571674....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Sep 22, 12:01 am, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:1190436566.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > On Sep 21, 9:45 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
^ 1) She is the kingdom, Israel.
^ Agree: Joseph's dream. Joseph is the 12th star. Jacob his father is
^ the sun and his mother Rachel is the moon.
Amen!
^ 2) The manchild is the body of Christ, the church.
^ Huh?
^ T-y-p-e out the verses.
^ Revelation 12:1:
^ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the
^ sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
^ stars:
^ The woman is the nation of Israel.
^ Revelation 12:2:
^ And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
^ delivered.
^ The child is Jesus Christ.
Yes, John, you are right and we are in Christ. The woman is in labor.
The head came out and the rest of the body will follow.
Matthew 24:7-8
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and
there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of birth pangs.
^ Revelation 12:3:
^ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
^ dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
^ heads.
The seven heads and ten horns of the dragon. Daniel 7:7, 7:20, 7:24; Rev.
13:1; 17:3, 17: 7 ; & 19:12
^ The Dragon is Satan:
^ Revelation 12:9:
^ And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the
^ Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
^ into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
^ The child of 12:2 is the same child of 12:4 and 12:5:
Amen!
^ Revelation 12:4:
^ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
^ them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was
^ ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was
^ born.
^ Jesus Christ will rule the world as King of all the Earth.
^ Revelation 12:5A:
^ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
^ rod of iron:
The reign with the rod of iron is the millennial reign.
Rev. 20:4-5
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of
Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (but
the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were
finished). This is the first resurrection.
^ After his crucifixion and resurrection Jesus Christ ascended into
^ Heaven to G-D's Throne.
^ Revelation 12:5B:
^ and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
^ Its the same child; 12:2/4/5A&B.
It is Jesus Christ, the body of Christ, the head first, and we in him when
the rest of the body is delivered.
Abrams1117
Abrams1117
Based on this verse youre saying the 'child' represents BOTH Jesus
Christ AND believers?
Fred A Stover
? Based on this verse youre saying the 'child' represents BOTH Jesus
? Christ AND believers?
No, that verse addresses the birthpangs between the head and the rest of the
body.
The description of the dragon in Rev 12:3 coincides with end time prophesies
(below).
Rev 20:4-5 shows the body of Christ reigning in the millennium (the rod of
iron reign) as in Rev 12:5.
Abrams1117
The child represents A,B, or C?:
a) Jesus Christ
b) the church
c) Jesus Christ and the church
Fred A Stover
** The child represents A,B, or C?:
** a) Jesus Christ
** b) the church
** c) Jesus Christ and the church
A, B, and C. The church is "in Christ", and Christ is in the church as the
head of the body. It is the first resurrection, Christ the firstfruits and
His at His coming. The woman gave birth to Jesus and she will give birth to
the church, but they are one, the body of Christ: the head and the rest of
the body.
> The description of the dragon in Rev 12:3 coincides with end time
Sam Taylor
what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church jesus started,
not the phony Church constantine started.
That is why revivals DON'T work.
Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
FYI, if you're not going to quote what you're
responding to, then don't expect many people
to bother with you. You are not the only person
here and people are not going to remember
every word written in the post you decided
to respond to.
>It is the dead that are ressurected, and not the living.
Do you assume that means "physically dead"?
>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>Jesus started
Define what you classify as, "the original church
that Jesus started", please.
And quote my words please and please respond
to each statement, below each statement. That
is how it's done in usenet. If you aren't sure
how to set up your software to do that, I would
be glad to try to help you with that.
Fred A Stover
Sam Taylor
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:53:58 -0700, Sam Taylor
><cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>FYI, if you're not going to quote what you're
>responding to, then don't expect many people
>to bother with you. You are not the only person
>here and people are not going to remember
>every word written in the post you decided
>to respond to.
>
>
>>It is the dead that are ressurected, and not the living.
>
>Do you assume that means "physically dead"?
I sure ain't talking about brain dead living people
>
>
>>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>>Jesus started
>
The one without Clergy or hierichcal form, where everyone was an
Ambassador to christ, that everyone both preached gave prophecy
those who spoke in toungues did it by 2 or 3 and in course and another
interpreted the 2 or 3
where by the mouth of 2 or 3 was anything that was established by.
where they actualy believed WHAT jesus taught and preached
instead of Greko Roman mythology.
Abrams1117
And when the child is caught up to Heaven the verse just applies to
Jesus Christ? Or is it divided into separate times?
Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
Thank you for quoting what you are responding to.
But you please need to put some spacing between
the lines. The text is running together. I have
manually corrected it.
>On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:17:19 -0400, Pastor Dave
><ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:53:58 -0700, Sam Taylor
>><cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>FYI, if you're not going to quote what you're
>>responding to, then don't expect many people
>>to bother with you. You are not the only person
>>here and people are not going to remember
>>every word written in the post you decided
>>to respond to.
>>
>>
>>>It is the dead that are ressurected, and not the living.
>>
>>Do you assume that means "physically dead"?
>
>I sure ain't talking about brain dead living people
According to the Bible, people were resurrected
who were physically alive. But what does this
have to do with the post? The subject of the
post was whether or not the resurrection involved
physical human bodies being brought back to life.
>>>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>>>Jesus started
>
>The one without Clergy or hierichcal form, where everyone was an
>Ambassador to christ, that everyone both preached gave prophecy
>those who spoke in toungues did it by 2 or 3 and in course and another
>interpreted the 2 or 3
>where by the mouth of 2 or 3 was anything that was established by.
>where they actualy believed WHAT jesus taught and preached
>instead of Greko Roman mythology.
According to the Bible, there was a hierarchy
in the original church. In fact, it places Christ
as the head, of course, but then Apostles and
we also see presbyters, etc..
The fact is, you are trying to claim that the church
was some free for all, with no control at all. That's
chaos, not church.
But again, what does this have to do with the post?
Fred A Stover
It applies to both times.
Sam Taylor
>
>According to the Bible, people were resurrected
>who were physically alive. But what does this
>have to do with the post? The subject of the
>post was whether or not the resurrection involved
>physical human bodies being brought back to life.
--->Why would the Living need to be resurrected?
>
>>>>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>>>>Jesus started
>>
>>The one without Clergy or hierichcal form, where everyone was an
>>Ambassador to christ, that everyone both preached gave prophecy
>>those who spoke in toungues did it by 2 or 3 and in course and another
>>interpreted the 2 or 3
>>where by the mouth of 2 or 3 was anything that was established by.
>>where they actualy believed WHAT jesus taught and preached
>>instead of Greko Roman mythology.
>
>According to the Bible, there was a hierarchy
>in the original church. In fact, it places Christ
>as the head, of course, but then Apostles and
>we also see presbyters, etc..
---->and James also a Son of mary was the head of that Church until
His death then Jude. PETER WAS NEVER THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
nor was paul.
it was what Peter confessed that was the rock or cornerstone of that
Church. that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ) the Son of the Living G-D
and THAT confession was given by the holy Spirit.
their was not Clergy, nor Liety class in that church.
>The fact is, you are trying to claim that the church
>was some free for all, with no control at all. That's
>chaos, not church.
--->All things were done decently and in order, and by the mouth of 2
or 3 witnesses was anything done or established.
Paul explains it thusly
How is it when You come together 1 has a song, another has a teaching
let all participate, and by course, or one by one.
then goes on to show how prophecy and speaking in tongues should
be done so that by the mouth of those 2 or 3 it can be established.
the ones who speak in tongues did not interpret the tongues
but they spoke by course, and another interpreted the same message
od the tongues, if no interpreter was present, they were to remain
silent.
they shared their testamonies, and worshiped god.
Sam Taylor
>>>
>>>>It is the dead that are ressurected, and not the living.
>>>
>>>Do you assume that means "physically dead"?
>>
>>I sure ain't talking about brain dead living people
>
>According to the Bible, people were resurrected
>who were physically alive. But what does this
>have to do with the post? The subject of the
>post was whether or not the resurrection involved
>physical human bodies being brought back to life.
>
>
>>>>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>>>>Jesus started
----> the Oricles of G-d was commited unto Israel, and not to the
gentiles, as they were grafted into the synagog of G-D.
the form of that assembly differs greatly to the false Roman church.
Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>>According to the Bible, people were resurrected
>>who were physically alive. But what does this
>>have to do with the post? The subject of the
>>post was whether or not the resurrection involved
>>physical human bodies being brought back to life.
>
>--->Why would the Living need to be resurrected?
Because Jesus said so. Physically dead and
spiritually dead are two different things.
You should really stop focusing on the physical.
>>>>>what relly needs a ressurection, is the Original Church
>>>>>Jesus started
>>>
>>>The one without Clergy or hierichcal form, where everyone was an
>>>Ambassador to christ, that everyone both preached gave prophecy
>>>those who spoke in toungues did it by 2 or 3 and in course and another
>>>interpreted the 2 or 3
>>>where by the mouth of 2 or 3 was anything that was established by.
>>>where they actualy believed WHAT jesus taught and preached
>>>instead of Greko Roman mythology.
>>
>>According to the Bible, there was a hierarchy
>>in the original church. In fact, it places Christ
>>as the head, of course, but then Apostles and
>>we also see presbyters, etc..
>
>---->and James also a Son of mary was the head of that Church until
>His death then Jude.
So you claim. But irrelevant.
>PETER WAS NEVER THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH
I didn't say he was. I did however, say that
your comment was in error and you just
admitted it was, by this response.
Pastor Dave
<cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:
>----> the Oricles of G-d was commited unto Israel, and not to the
>gentiles, as they were grafted into the synagog of G-D.
>the form of that assembly differs greatly to the false Roman church.
National Israel has nothing to do with it anymore.
And if you want to argue about the RCC, you
might want to pick an RCC'er. :)
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
news:bupcg391mk43nd72a...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Because Jesus said so. Physically dead and
> spiritually dead are two different things.
>
> You should really stop focusing on the physical.
Why? The physical, intellectual, and spiritual all come together as one.
In fact, that defines heaven and hell.
The living are eternal, mind, body, and soul
The dead are eternal, too--eternally disintegrated (but continually
conscious) in the mind, the body, AND the Spirit.
[snip the rest of the babble]
Ike
Abrams1117
I cant agree with that. That the child refers to Jesus Christ is
obvious; almost everyone agrees on that- which is good. Then people
say the woman is Mary, the church, etc. When scripture (JOSEPH'S
DREAM) gives the only answer - the woman is Israel. Anything else
added is guesswork. Such as, yes, she is ISREAL -BUT - only Christians
who are also heirs......etcetcetcetc - and endless string of beliefs.
Now to say the child ascending into Heaven happened after Jesus'
resurrection (meaning it represents Jesus Christ) AND 'blank'.
Blank can then be:
1) The Church at pentecost
2) Any christian that died after pentecost
3) Any christian that died after his resurrection
4) All christians in A.D. 70.
5) Dead christians in A.D. 70.
6) All christians at his second coming
7) And any endless number of unlimited ideas
We know the child is Jesus Christ.
I would love to see a debate between those that say the child is the
church and those that say the woman is the church - that would be
interesting. I think both are wrong; but, it would be interesting.
Shes the church!
The child is the church!
The woman!
The child!
And of course then people will say: No! The church is both!!!
* We get into trouble when we try and 'guess' ,by using man's faulty
'logic', what prophecy represents.
Fred A Stover
+ I cant agree with that. That the child refers to Jesus Christ is
+ obvious; almost everyone agrees on that- which is good. Then people
+ say the woman is Mary, the church, etc. When scripture (JOSEPH'S
+ DREAM) gives the only answer - the woman is Israel. Anything else
+ added is guesswork. Such as, yes, she is ISREAL -BUT - only
+ Christians
+ who are also heirs......etcetcetcetc - and endless string of beliefs.
John, Put what everyone else is saying aside, and simply read what He is
saying, when you see what He is saying, try to think in His terms.
As I see it, you are looking at the two times as two births. When you were
born, did your head come out at a different time than the rest of your body?
You probably weren't delivered sideways, so the answet is probably yes. The
two times were at different points in the duration of the one event, your
birth.
It's the same with the body of Christ. The coming out of the head and the
rest of the body are two separate parts of the same event. He confirms this
in Revelation 20 where Christ and His are reigning and we are told they
are the first resurrection and we are told that the rest of the dead do not
live again until the end of the thousand years.
This is all inclusive, for if one is not in the first resurrection, he is
among the rest of the dead.
He is presenting one body, one event and all we can say is Amen.
His,
ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
+ Now to say the child ascending into Heaven happened after Jesus'
+ resurrection (meaning it represents Jesus Christ) AND 'blank'.
+ Blank can then be:
+ 1) The Church at pentecost
+ 2) Any christian that died after pentecost
+ 3) Any christian that died after his resurrection
+ 4) All christians in A.D. 70.
+ 5) Dead christians in A.D. 70.
+ 6) All christians at his second coming
+ 7) And any endless number of unlimited ideas
+ We know the child is Jesus Christ.
+ I would love to see a debate between those that say the child is the
+ church and those that say the woman is the church - that would be
+ interesting. I think both are wrong; but, it would be interesting.
+ Shes the church!
+ The child is the church!
+ The woman!
+ The child!
+ And of course then people will say: No! The church is both!!!
+ * We get into trouble when we try and 'guess' ,by using man's faulty
+ 'logic', what prophecy represents.
Partly because we start with man's limited perception.
Abrams1117
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Change this to the way you see it:
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the
sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
The woman is Israel.
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered.
The child is Jesus Christ and the church. Travailing in birth refers
to both the birth of Jesus Christ and the church (when?).
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was
ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was
born.
To devour the child refers to Herod killing the children of Bethlehem
and/or the crucifixition; and to the persecution of the church
(when?).
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
The man child refers to Jesus Christ ascending into Heaven and the
church during the resurrection (?).
Mikal119
Thats works just fine, and is probably the allusion.However, real
prophecy repeats.
Again.
Fred A Stover
[Okay, John there's not much to change.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the
sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
The woman is Israel.
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered.
The child is Jesus Christ and the church. Travailing in birth refers
to both the birth of Jesus Christ and the church (when?).
[The child is the body of Christ (Jesus, the head, and
the church)
[The birth began when the stone was rolled away and ends
with the gathering [of the Church: "And then shall
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they (Ezek 37:12, Rev
[1:7) shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
[great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
[and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
of [heaven to the other" (Matt24:30-31).
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast
them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was
ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was
born.
[Rev 12:7-12]
To devour the child refers to Herod killing the children of Bethlehem
and/or the crucifixition; and to the persecution of the church
(when?).
[Herod's killing of the children was a fulfillment of
what was prophesied by the [Pharaoh's killing of the
Hebrews (Ex 1:22),
[The persecution of the church began with the killing of
the two anointed [witnesses of His first coming
(Matt 21:8-9), John & Jesus, and it ends at [the
killing of the two anointed witnesses of His return (Rev 11).
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
The man child refers to Jesus Christ ascending into Heaven and the
church during the resurrection (?).
[Yes, the millennial reign is the rod of iron reign.
Abrams1117
Revelation 12:5:
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
Is this the chronology?:
And she (Israel) brought forth a man child (Jesus Christ at his
resurrection), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (at his
second coming): and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his
throne (When Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven).
THEN
And she (Israel) brought forth a man child (the church at their
resurrection; at his second coming), who was to rule all nations with
a rod of iron (at his second coming): and her child was caught up unto
G-D, and to his throne (at their resurrection; his second coming).
Fred A Stover
Is this the chronology?:
THEN
[Yes],
Abrams1117
When do the events in Matthew 24:4-7 happen?
Matthew 24:
4 Jesus told them, "Don't let anyone mislead you,
5 for many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah.' They
will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don't panic. Yes,
these things must take place, but the end won't follow immediately.
7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world.
8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to
come.
Fred A Stover
These are recurring events in church history.
Abrams1117
?
I thought you said the birth pains were the same events described
here:
Fred A Stover
?
THEN
That's the birth, not the pangs.
His,
Abrams1117
I understand 'why' you believe this.
Can you give other examples where a verse has multiple meanings like
this?
Since you have to use the NIV translation to make your point about the
'birth pains';
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. KJV
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. NIV
;and the KJV translation to make your point about 'man child';
Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
I then looked into other translations of this verse:
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the
nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to G-D and to
His throne.
Where is the church called a son?
Where is the church called a male child?
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an
iron scepter. Her child was snatched away and taken to G-D and to his
throne.
Where is the church called a boy?
American Standard Version
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the
nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and
unto his throne.
Where is the church called a man child?
Bible in Basic English
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who was to have rule over
all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was taken up to G-D
and to his high seat.
Where is the church called a male child?
Darby Bible Translation
And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations
with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to G-D and to his
throne.
Where is the church called a male son?
English Revised Version
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the
nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and
unto his throne.
Weymouth New Testament
She gave birth to a son--a male child, destined before long to rule
all nations with an iron scepter. But her child was caught up to G-D
and His throne,
Webster's Bible Translation
And she brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up to G-D, and to his throne.
World English Bible
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations
with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to G-D, and to his
throne.
Young's Literal Translation
and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the
nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto G-D and
His throne,
Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
Also, scripture says And she brought forth a man child, who was...
'Who was' sounds like this is a fulfillment of (Old Testament)
prophecy.
Base on this, I understand what you believe, I simply disagree.
Beyond this, I dont see any of the church ever going to Heaven:
Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
Since, for this verse to refer to the church it must go to Heaven; we
can continue here.
Which verses (scripture) prove that the church goes to Heaven?
* Beyond all of that; just the thought that anyone would ever in any
way whatsoever be made equal to Jesus Christ; as in a single verse
representing both him and the church; makes me sick to my stomache.
He overcame and he qualified to rule. Anyone else ruling under him is
simply through his mercy.
Fred A Stover
@ I understand 'why' you believe this.
@ Can you give other examples where a verse has multiple meanings @ like
this? ------
There are examples of dual fulfillment, but I'm not addressing two
fulfillments. I'm addressing the birth of the body of Christ who is tho
reign with a rod of iron.
This is the second birth of the body of Christ conceived in the Spirit (John
3:6) and coming full term and being delivered.
@ Since you have to use the NIV translation to make your point about @ the
'birth pains';
I don't have and NIV. One of my KJV's is a mixture of KJV text and
retranslated text from the majority text. It's a version in process and I
used that. The point was the word being used for events during the delivery
referred to birth pangs..
@ Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. KJV
@ Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. NIV
@ ;and the KJV translation to make your point about 'man child';
KJV and Majotity test.
@ Revelation 12:5
@ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
@ rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
@ I then looked into other translations of this verse:
@ New American Standard Bible (©1995)
@ And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the
@ nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to G-D and to
@ His throne.
@ Where is the church called a son?
@ Where is the church called a male child?
Jesus is the son; the church is in Him. His body is Himself, the head, and
the church in Him.
You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one event
If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at the first?
He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are
made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies
thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten horns at
the first?
<repetition snipped>
@ Revelation 12:5
@ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
@ rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
@ Also, scripture says And she brought forth a man child, who was...
@ 'Who was' sounds like this is a fulfillment of (Old Testament)
@ prophecy.
@ Base on this, I understand what you believe, I simply disagree.
@ Beyond this, I dont see any of the church ever going to Heaven:
That the church went to heaven is from other scriptures because this has
traditionally.
Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a place
for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am,
there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in the
same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and ascend into
heaven:
Rev. 11:11-12
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered
into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them
which saw them. [12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto
them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their
enemies beheld them.
And the church (2 Cor. 11:2), His bride, descends from heaven in the place
prepared for her:
Rev. 21:1-2
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the
first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw
the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared
as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev. 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials
full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I
will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. [10] And he carried me away in
the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the
holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
@ Revelation 12:5
@ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
@ rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
@ Since, for this verse to refer to the church it must go to Heaven; we
@ can continue here.
@ Which verses (scripture) prove that the church goes to Heaven?
@ * Beyond all of that; just the thought that anyone would ever in any
@ way whatsoever be made equal to Jesus Christ; as in a single verse
@ representing both him and the church; makes me sick to my
@ stomache.
I don't know why that should be. We're in Christ, and that is a basic theme
of the NT. And there are no limits to His grace and His righteousness.
@ He overcame and he qualified to rule. Anyone else ruling under him @ is
simply through his mercy.
Abrams1117
* I snipped the old/unimportant parts. The parts I snipped from your
last post I agree with; the resurrection, etc. Its combining the
resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the saved in the same verse that I
do not see.
< You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one
event If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at
the first?
I do not understand your question: 'where is the reign with a rod of
iron in the first?'
You yourself believe that Jesus Christ was born to rule; he was born,
ascended into Heaven and will return to rule: Revelation 12:5:
Revelation 12:5:
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
< He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His
enemies are
made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies
thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
True.
< If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten
horns at the first?
Revelation 12:3 is the roman Empire.
Revelation 12:3:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
heads.
<Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
place
for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
am,
there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
True.
<At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
the
same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
ascend into heaven:
What do you mean by 'heaven'? Do you mean as the Pslams says the
birds fly in 'heaven'. Or do you mean 'Heaven'?
<Rev. 11:11-12
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from G-D entered
into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon
them
which saw them. [12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying
unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
How long do these three days and a half last?
3.5 days? 3.5 years?
<And the church (2 Cor. 11:2), His bride, descends from heaven in the
place prepared for her:
This verse says nothing about the church descending from Heaven:
2 Cor. 11:2:
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to
Christ.
<Rev. 21:1-2
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the
first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I
John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from G-D out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
<Rev. 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven
vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come
hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. [10] And he
carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed
me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from
G-D,
Do you see the city (Revelation 21:1-2 & 21:9-10) as being/
representing the saved?
Are the saved the city?
Or do they walk in the light of 'it'?
Revelation 21:24A:
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of
it:
Scripture teaches that the city and the saved are two different
things. Paul teaches that the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all
(the saved).
Galatians 4:26:
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Some peole will say that Paul is not talking about the city in
Revelation.
In the next verse Paul 'quotes' Isaiah:
Galatians 4:27:
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
children than she which hath an husband.
This is the verse Paul quotes while teaching about this Jerusalem
above.
Isaiah 54:
1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing,
and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are
the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife,
saith the LORD.
This very same verse in Isaiah that Paul quotes when refering to the
Jerusalem above is in Isaiah 54. What is Isaiah teaching about here?
Stones of fair colors and foundations with sapphires:
Isaiah 54:
11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I
will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with
sapphires.
12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles,
and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
Its the same city described by John:
Revelation 21:19
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all
manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the
second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Just as Paul does when quoting this chapter in Isaiah about the
Jerusalem above. Isaiah teaches that this city and the people are two
different things:
Isaiah 54:
11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I
will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with
sapphires.
12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles,
and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall
be
the peace of thy children.
Fred A Stover
>
> * I snipped the old/unimportant parts. The parts I snipped from your
> last post I agree with; the resurrection, etc. Its combining the
> resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the saved in the same verse that I
> do not see.
>
> < You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one
> event If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at
> the first?
>
> I do not understand your question: 'where is the reign with a rod of
> iron in the first?'
>
> You yourself believe that Jesus Christ was born to rule; he was born,
> ascended into Heaven and will return to rule: Revelation 12:5:
>
> Revelation 12:5:
> And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
> rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
>
Yes, but His reign begins with the millennium. In the interim he sits at the
right hand of the Father
> < He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His
> enemies are
> made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
> enemies
> thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
>
> True.
>
> < If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten
> horns at the first?
>
> Revelation 12:3 is the roman Empire.
>
> Revelation 12:3:
> And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
> dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
> heads.
>
But in scripture the seven heads and ten horns are at the time of the end,
Dan 7:24, Rev 13:1, 17:3, 17:7, 17:12.
> <Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
> "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
> have
> told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
> place
> for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
> am,
> there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
>
> True.
>
> <At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
> the
> same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
> ascend into heaven:
>
> What do you mean by 'heaven'? Do you mean as the Pslams says the
> birds fly in 'heaven'. Or do you mean 'Heaven'?
The heaven of Rev 11:11-12 where God resides, and Jesus prepared a place for
them.
>
> <Rev. 11:11-12
> And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from G-D entered
> into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon
> them
> which saw them. [12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying
> unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
> and their enemies beheld them.
>
> How long do these three days and a half last?
>
> 3.5 days? 3.5 years?
>
>
3.5 days.
> <And the church (2 Cor. 11:2), His bride, descends from heaven in the
> place prepared for her:
>
> This verse says nothing about the church descending from Heaven:
>
> 2 Cor. 11:2:
> For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
> you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to
> Christ.
>
That identifies the church as the bride who desends in Rev 21:1-2, 9-10, in
the place prepared.
>
> <Rev. 21:1-2
> And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the
> first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I
> John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from G-D out of
> heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
>
> <Rev. 21:9-10
> And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven
> vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come
> hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. [10] And he
> carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed
> me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from
> G-D,
>
> Do you see the city (Revelation 21:1-2 & 21:9-10) as being/
> representing the saved?
>
The residents are the church saved at His coming. The Jews are saved in the
millennium: by faith and doing the law in the millennial temple: "For I
testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do
the whole law" (Gal 5:3).
> Are the saved the city?
Not the infrastructure, but the population.
>
> Or do they walk in the light of 'it'?
>
They walk in the light of it.
> Revelation 21:24A:
> And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of
> it:
>
> Scripture teaches that the city and the saved are two different
> things. Paul teaches that the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all
> (the saved).
>
It descends to the rest of the saved after the judgment.
Abrams1117
> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1192045479.7...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > * I snipped the old/unimportant parts. The parts I snipped from your
> > last post I agree with; the resurrection, etc. Its combining the
> > resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the saved in the same verse that I
> > do not see.
>
> > < You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one
> > event If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at
> > the first?
>
> > I do not understand your question: 'where is the reign with a rod of
> > iron in the first?'
>
> > You yourself believe that Jesus Christ was born to rule; he was born,
> > ascended into Heaven and will return to rule: Revelation 12:5:
>
> > Revelation 12:5:
> > And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
> > rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
>
> Yes, but His reign begins with the millennium. In the interim he sits at the right hand of the Father
>
Yes, exactly. What does this have to do with saying the verse means
BOTH Jesus Christ and the saved? He is born to rule, ascends into
Heaven then returns to rule.
>
>
>
> > < He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His
> > enemies are
> > made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
> > enemies
> > thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
>
> > True.
>
> > < If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten
> > horns at the first?
>
> > Revelation 12:3 is the roman Empire.
>
> > Revelation 12:3:
> > And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
> > dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
> > heads.
>
> But in scripture the seven heads and ten horns are at the time of the end,
> Dan 7:24, Rev 13:1, 17:3, 17:7, 17:12.
>
Who wear the crowns in the last Empire?
The Roman Empire is represented by seven heads, ten horns and seven
CROWNS upon the HEADS. The last empire is DIFFERENT.
>
>
>
>
> > <Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
> > "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
> > have
> > told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
> > place
> > for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
> > am,
> > there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
>
> > True.
>
> > <At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
> > the
> > same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
> > ascend into heaven:
>
There is nothing about them going to Heaven:
1 Corinthians 15:
15:20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection
of the dead.
15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
15:23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
kingdom to G-D, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule
and all authority and power.
15:25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his
feet.
15:26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
15:27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith
all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
15:28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the
Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that G-D may be all in all.
15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the
dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
15:30: And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
15:31: I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our
Lord, I die daily.
15:32: If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at
Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and
drink; for to morrow we die.
15:33: Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
15:34: Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the
knowledge of G-D: I speak this to your shame.
15:35: But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with
what body do they come?
15:36: Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it
die:
15:37: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that
shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other
grain:
15:38: But G-D giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every
seed his own body.
15:39: All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh
of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of
birds.
15:40: There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but
the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is
another.
15:41: There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon,
and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another
star in glory.
15:42: So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
15:43: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in
weakness; it is raised in power:
15:44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There
is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45: And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living
soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
15:46: Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which
is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
15:47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the
Lord from heaven.
15:48: As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is
the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
15:49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also
bear the image of the heavenly.
15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit
the kingdom of G-D; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed,
15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality.
15:54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to
pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
15:56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
15:57: But thanks be to G-D, which giveth us the victory through our
Lord Jesus Christ.
15:58: Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that
your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
> > What do you mean by 'heaven'? Do you mean as the Pslams says the
> > birds fly in 'heaven'. Or do you mean 'Heaven'?
>
> The heaven of Rev 11:11-12 where God resides, and Jesus prepared a place for them.
>
It does not mean Heaven it means the sky where the clouds are located:
1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
a) the universe, the world
b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the
tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
c) the sidereal or starry heavens
If they walk in the light of it they are not it.
>
> ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of the Lord
> Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
> <)))))))><- Hide quoted text -
Fred A Stover
> On Oct 10, 5:26 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredstov...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> "Abrams1117" <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1192045479.7...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > * I snipped the old/unimportant parts. The parts I snipped from your
>> > last post I agree with; the resurrection, etc. Its combining the
>> > resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the saved in the same verse that I
>> > do not see.
>>
>> > < You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one
>> > event If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at
>> > the first?
>>
>> > I do not understand your question: 'where is the reign with a rod of
>> > iron in the first?'
>>
>> > You yourself believe that Jesus Christ was born to rule; he was born,
>> > ascended into Heaven and will return to rule: Revelation 12:5:
>>
>> > Revelation 12:5:
>> > And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
>> > rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
>>
>> Yes, but His reign begins with the millennium. In the interim he sits at
>> the right hand of the Father
>>
>
> Yes, exactly. What does this have to do with saying the verse means
> BOTH Jesus Christ and the saved? He is born to rule, ascends into
> Heaven then returns to rule.
>
He's being caught up to reign with a rod of iron, which He doesn't do until
the rest of Him is caught up.
>>
>>
>>
>> > < He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His
>> > enemies are
>> > made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
>> > enemies
>> > thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
>>
>> > True.
>>
>> > < If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten
>> > horns at the first?
>>
>> > Revelation 12:3 is the roman Empire.
>>
>> > Revelation 12:3:
>> > And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
>> > dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
>> > heads.
>>
>> But in scripture the seven heads and ten horns are at the time of the
>> end,
>> Dan 7:24, Rev 13:1, 17:3, 17:7, 17:12.
>>
>
> Who wear the crowns in the last Empire?
>
> The Roman Empire is represented by seven heads, ten horns and seven
> CROWNS upon the HEADS. The last empire is DIFFERENT.
>
At the end, not at the beginning of the birth.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > <Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
>> > "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
>> > have
>> > told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
>> > place
>> > for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
>> > am,
>> > there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
>>
>> > True.
>>
>> > <At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
>> > the
>> > same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
>> > ascend into heaven:
>>
>
> There is nothing about them going to Heaven:
I does to me.
That's not what I read in John 14:2-3, all the verses add a little but this
puts it in heaven.
The light is in it. & They're descending in it.
Rev. 21:22-23
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are
the temple of it. [23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the
moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is
the light thereof.
Abrams1117
>> > * I snipped the old/unimportant parts. The parts I snipped from your
>> > last post I agree with; the resurrection, etc. Its combining the
>> > resurrection of Jesus Christ and of the saved in the same verse that I
>> > do not see.
>> > < You're still looking at it as though it is two events. It's one
>> > event If it were two events, where is the reign with a rod of iron at
>> > the first?
These are the events:
Revelation 12:5:
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
1) Jesus Christ is born: And she brought forth a man child
2) Jesus Christ ascends into Heaven: and her child was caught up unto
G-D, and to his throne.
3) Jesus Christ returns to rule the Earth: who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron
>> > I do not understand your question: 'where is the reign with a rod of
>> > iron in the first?'
>> > You yourself believe that Jesus Christ was born to rule; he was born,
>> > ascended into Heaven and will return to rule: Revelation 12:5:
>> > Revelation 12:5:
>> > And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a
>> > rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto G-D, and to his throne.
>> Yes, but His reign begins with the millennium. In the interim he sits at
>> the right hand of the Father
> Yes, exactly. What does this have to do with saying the verse means
> BOTH Jesus Christ and the saved? He is born to rule, ascends into
> Heaven then returns to rule.
>He's being caught up to reign with a rod of iron, which He doesn't do until
>the rest of Him is caught up.
Now you have a real problem: Jesus Christ reigns long before the New
Jerusalem descends from Heaven.
You have part of him going to Heaven, then him returning to rule, then
'the rest of him' descending to rule after he has been ruling already
for 1,000 years.
>> > < He's caught up to sit at the right hand of the Father until His
>> > enemies are
>> > made His footstool: "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
>> > enemies
>> > thy footstool" (Ps 110:1).
>> > True.
>> > < If it were two events, where are the dragon's seven heads and ten
>> > horns at the first?
>> > Revelation 12:3 is the roman Empire.
>> > Revelation 12:3:
>> > And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
>> > dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his
>> > heads.
>> But in scripture the seven heads and ten horns are at the time of the
>> end,
>> Dan 7:24, Rev 13:1, 17:3, 17:7, 17:12.
> Who wear the crowns in the last Empire?
> The Roman Empire is represented by seven heads, ten horns and seven
> CROWNS upon the HEADS. The last empire is DIFFERENT.
>At the end, not at the beginning of the birth.
Revelation 12:3 is the Roman Empire, the seventh empire wears the
crown; the crowns are on the seven heads.
The heads are explained by Daniel:
1)Babylon
2) Persia
3)Alexander's kingdom divided into four
4)Alexander's kingdom divided into four
5)Alexander's kingdom divided into four
6)Alexander's kingdom divided into four
7)The Roman Empire
The 7th 'head'; crowns on the seven heads; the heads are the kindoms
that reign in succession at different times; the 7th is Rome.
In Revelation13 the 'horns' have crowns-not the heads- 10 have crowns-
ten kings that receive power w/the Beast for one hour- at the same
time not successively.
>> > <Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
>> > "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
>> > have
>> > told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
>> > place
>> > for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
>> > am,
>> > there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
>> > True.
>> > <At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
>> > the
>> > same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
>> > ascend into heaven:
> There is nothing about them going to Heaven:
<I does to me.
I have the entire chapter right here; which verse(s) says they go to
Heaven?
You yourself say he will return to gather the saved and then 'take
them to Heaven'.
Veres 3 says: And if I go and prepare a place for you (Jesus leaves),
I will come again (Jesus returns), and receive you unto myself (the
saved are gathered); that where I am (he is on Earth), there ye may be
also (when he returns both he and the saved are on Earth).
Where is the verse, or half of a verse that says anything about them
going to Heaven?
John 14:
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
They will live in the new Jerusalem which 'comes down' to Earth -
where does it say they are inside it when it comes down?
Where does it say they go to Heaven? Where is any verse that says
anyone ever went to or will go to Heaven?
>> > 3.5 days? 3.5 years?
>> 3.5 days.
Show a verse that says they are in it.
Rev. 21:22-23
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb
are
the temple of it. [23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of
the
moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the
Lamb is
the light thereof.
> > Revelation 21:24A:
>> > And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of
>> > it:
>> > Scripture teaches that the city and the saved are two different
>> > things. Paul teaches that the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all
>> > (the saved).
>> It descends to the rest of the saved after the judgment.
True and totally off point. Where does it say anyone ever goes to
Heaven? Or they are in the city when it comes to Earth?
THE VERSES BELOW TEACH THAT THE CITY AND THE SAVED ARE TWO DIFFERENT
THINGS.
*You place them in the city when it comes down from Heaven-yet, you
dont have a verse that says they went to Heaven or that says they are
in the city when it comes down.
Fred A Stover
Of course He reigns before New Jerusalem descends from Heaven.
The millennium is when He reigns: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon
them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which
had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned
with Christ a thousand years (but the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished). This is the first resurrection" (Rev.
20:4-5). And it is the judgment at the end of the millennium when the books
are opened that determines who will be cast into the lake of fire and who
will be here when New Jerusalem descends.
>
> You have part of him going to Heaven, then him returning to rule, then
> 'the rest of him' descending to rule after he has been ruling already
> for 1,000 years.
>
No, you have that, and I don't know from where you got it..
What I have is Jesus, the head of the body of Christ, coming out of the
woman's womb, the rest of the body of Christ, the church coming out, and the
body of Christ, reigning for the millennium.
I pay attention to the Author's metaphor and don't mix it with other things
He doesn't include in it with it.
What I also have from other scriptures is His sitting at the right-hand of
His Father, waiting to reign, until it is time for the church to reign with
Hiim, His coming for His church, and reigning with them in the millennium..
Rev. 17:11
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the
seven, and goeth into perdition.
Which again puts it at the end, for Rome still "was." in the first century.
>
>>> > <Jesus returned to His father in heaven and said this before He went:
>>> > "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
>>> > have
>>> > told you. I go to prepare a place for you. and if I go and prepare a
>>> > place
>>> > for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
>>> > am,
>>> > there ye may be also" (John 14:2-3).
>
>>> > True.
>
>>> > <At the 7th trump two of His are raised from the dead, are changed in
>>> > the
>>> > same twinkle of and eye as the rest (1 Cor 15:22-23, 50-53), and
>>> > ascend into heaven:
>
>> There is nothing about them going to Heaven:
>
> <I does to me.
>
> I have the entire chapter right here; which verse(s) says they go to
> Heaven?
It's not in that chapter. It is in John:
John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a
place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
am, there ye may be also.
>
We all know where He went and Jesus is in heaven when He is here: In the
Jewish wedding, when the bridegroom took His betrothed to his father's
house, he couldn't leave the house?
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
> Where is the verse, or half of a verse that says anything about them
> going to Heaven?
>
> John 14:
> 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
> have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
> 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
> receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
It's the part about I go to prepare a place for you and that He will receive
us to Himself.
> They will live in the new Jerusalem which 'comes down' to Earth -
> where does it say they are inside it when it comes down?
It's the part about descending prepared as bride adorned for her husband.
It is the church which is espoused to be the bride of Christ: :
2 Cor. 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you
to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
And she descends in the place prepared for her to be revealed to the guests
when the marriage supper is over.
> Where does it say they go to Heaven? Where is any verse that says
> anyone ever went to or will go to Heaven?
John 13:36
Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him,
Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me
afterwards.
holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
>
>> > Revelation 21:24A:
>>> > And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of
>>> > it:
>
>>> > Scripture teaches that the city and the saved are two different
>>> > things. Paul teaches that the Jerusalem above is the mother of us all
>>> > (the saved).
>
>>> It descends to the rest of the saved after the judgment.
>
> True and totally off point. Where does it say anyone ever goes to
> Heaven? Or they are in the city when it comes to Earth?
>
> THE VERSES BELOW TEACH THAT THE CITY AND THE SAVED ARE TWO DIFFERENT
> THINGS.
>
> *You place them in the city when it comes down from Heaven-yet, you
> dont have a verse that says they went to Heaven or that says they are
> in the city when it comes down.
That's what I said. The city is where the place prepared is. The saved are
the bride in the place prepared.
Abrams1117
> These are the events:
No, what you have is Jesus Christ being born, ascending to Heaven and
waiting for
the rest of his body to be born thousands of years later.
<I pay attention to the Author's metaphor and don't mix it with other
things
<He doesn't include in it with it.
'in it with it'?
<What I also have from other scriptures is His sitting at the right-
hand of
<His Father, waiting to reign, until it is time for the church to
reign with
<Hiim, His coming for His church, and reigning with them in the
millennium..
True; yet that has nothing to do with anyone going to Heaven.
Everything you have just said places Jesus Christ and the church on
Earth reigning:
>>> > True.
What? Rome is at the end and in the first century??
>>> > True.
> <I does to me.
John 14:2-3 : Jesus Christ comes to Earth and the saved are where he
is.
There is no scripture that says future events are based on a Jewish
wedding.
John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down
from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
You just posted that no one has ever ascended into Heaven - but you
cant find an verse that says anyone ever went to or will ever go to
Heaven.
> Where is the verse, or half of a verse that says anything about them
> going to Heaven?
> John 14:
> 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
> have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
> 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
> receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
<It's the part about I go to prepare a place for you and that He will
receive
<us to Himself.
He comes again to the earth and where he is is where they will be:
Earth.
> They will live in the new Jerusalem which 'comes down' to Earth -
> where does it say they are inside it when it comes down?
<It's the part about descending prepared as bride adorned for her
husband.
<It is the church which is espoused to be the bride of Christ: :
2 Cor. 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
you
to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Theres nothing about going to Heaven.
<And she descends in the place prepared for her to be revealed to the
guests
<when the marriage supper is over.
I posted several verses that show the city and the people are two
differnt things.
What is the supper?
> Where does it say they go to Heaven? Where is any verse that says
> anyone ever went to or will go to Heaven?
John 13:36
Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus
answered him,
Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me
afterwards.
What was he talking about when he said 'whither I go'?
>>> > 3.5 days? 3.5 years?
>>> 3.5 days.
Now Im lost - the people arent in the city when it comes down?
Fred A Stover
!!> waiting for
!!> the rest of his body to be born thousands of years later.
!!>
No, you have that. What I have was and is below:
>
> <I pay attention to the Author's metaphor and don't mix it with other
> things
> <He doesn't include in it with it.
>
!!> 'in it with it'?
I pay attention to what is in this metaphor and do not mix into this
meraphor any thing that He has said elsewhere that He hasn't included in
this metaphor not included in this metaphor.
>
> <What I also have from other scriptures is His sitting at the right-
> hand of
> <His Father, waiting to reign, until it is time for the church to
> reign with
> <Hiim, His coming for His church, and reigning with them in the
> millennium..
>
!!> True; yet that has nothing to do with anyone going to Heaven.
!!>
!!> Everything you have just said places Jesus Christ and the church on
!!> Earth reigning:
!!>
Wrong, John 14:2-3 put the church in heaven. There is also 1 Thess 5:9,
which I assumed you knew: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to
obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," which removes the church from
His wrath, which is the millennial day of the Lord:
, Isaiah 13:9-13
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof
out of it. [10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall
not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the
moon shall not cause her light to shine. [11] And I will punish the world
for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the
arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the
terrible. [12] I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man
than the golden wedge of Ophir. [13] Therefore I will shake the heavens, and
the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts,
and in the day of his fierce anger.
!!> What? Rome is at the end and in the first century??
????????????
In the first century, "the beast that was, and is not" was, the "is not"
comes later.
!!> John 14:2-3 : Jesus Christ comes to Earth and the saved are
!!> where !!he is.
>
Wrong. When He returns it is the day of His wrath, from which the church is
removed, for the church, the seventh day is the day of His rest. (Heb 4:7).
It is the circumcision which is appointed to wrath:
Psalm 95:11
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
!!> There is no scripture that says future events are based on a Jewish
!!> wedding.
!!>
Matt 25
>
> John 3:13
> And no man hath ascended up to heaven, if not he that came down
> from
> heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
>
!!> You just posted that no one has ever ascended into Heaven - but you
!!> cant find an verse that says anyone ever went to or will ever go to
!!> Heaven.
!!>
I have shown many. John 3:13 addresses your claim that they must be on earth
to be with Him.
>> Where is the verse, or half of a verse that says anything about them
>> going to Heaven?
>
>> John 14:
>> 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
>> have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
>> 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and
>> receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
>
>
> <It's the part about I go to prepare a place for you and that He will
> receive
> <us to Himself.
>
!!> He comes again to the earth and where he is is where they will be:
!!> Earth.
!!>
The place prepared for them is in His Father's house, where He went to
prepare it.
>> They will live in the new Jerusalem which 'comes down' to Earth -
>> where does it say they are inside it when it comes down?
>
> <It's the part about descending prepared as bride adorned for her
> husband.
>
> <It is the church which is espoused to be the bride of Christ: :
>
> 2 Cor. 11:2
> For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
> you
> to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
>
!!> Theres nothing about going to Heaven.
!!>
It identifies the bride descending from heaven, which indicates she went
there to get there.
> <And she descends in the place prepared for her to be revealed to the
> guests
> <when the marriage supper is over.
>
!!> I posted several verses that show the city and the people are two
!!> differnt things.
For what ever reason? Nothing was suggested to say the people were the
infrastructure. The people are in the city.
!!>
!!> What is the supper?
!!>
Rev. 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the
marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true
sayings of God.
>> Where does it say they go to Heaven? Where is any verse that says
>> anyone ever went to or will go to Heaven?
>
> John 13:36
> Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus
> answered him,
> Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me
> afterwards.
>
!!> What was he talking about when he said 'whither I go'?
!!>
His ascent into heaven.
?????????? Of course they are.