The Lord Jesus Christ has been supplanted.
Michael Christ
....................................by the bible.
It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
righteous according to the Word.
Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
And that is exactly what is happening throughout the earth with every
denomination you can name.
The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched with the
soiled hands of men.
Michael Christ
Thommadura
> The Lord has been replaced...................
Indeed - and it happens every day - by a new religion - that renders the
old ones false
OVer the centuries - it has happened so often as to be comical.
In fact - it happens often in christianity - where there are now over
39,000 different organized sect - according to the Jesuit University -
and many millions of individually created belief.
Today - we have the second coming of the christ ALIVE AND LIVING on
earth.(among others - Sun Myung Moon)
Interestingly - that has been the case for Hundreds of years.
And all of these claims are tied together with two things in common
1 - just the TITLE of one of their gods (Not all believe in the trinity)
2 - NO PROOF of any of it
pyotr filipivich
or about Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:53:45 GMT did write/type or cause to
appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
IOW - the real church is hidden from mankind, the Kingdom of God
is not at hand, it hasn't prevailed against the gates of Hell, and
there is no way to know what was meant by the written records left
behind.
bummer, dude.
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Michael Christ
> or about Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:53:45 GMT did write/type or cause to
> appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>The Lord has been replaced...................
>>
>>....................................by the bible.
>>
>>It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>>written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
>>you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>>
>>And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their
>>personalised
>>theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>>righteous according to the Word.
>>
>>Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>>
>>And that is exactly what is happening throughout the earth with every
>>denomination you can name.
>>
>>The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched with the
>>soiled hands of men.
Pete wrote:
> IOW - the real church is hidden from mankind, the Kingdom of God
> is not at hand, it hasn't prevailed against the gates of Hell, and
> there is no way to know what was meant by the written records left
> behind.
>
> bummer, dude.
You gave perfect example of the original post.
Well done, and thank you.
Michael Christ
Thommadura
At least he used the TRUTH in his
Thurisaz, warrior of Thor
> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their
> personalised theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming
> they are righteous according to the Word...
...like this morontheist's "theology" of being proud to be a liar for jebus.
Note how the morontheist runs from this truth... again.
--
Thurisaz, warrior of Thor, natural enemy of morontheism
The judgment of morontheism: http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
GreatSage
<tomm...@optonline.net> wrote:
Thom Wrote:
> At least he used the TRUTH in his
I think there is much truth in the entire thread.
Mankind has lost his way and become sick and delusional.
The degeneration of modern mankind will continue.
Some kind of world-wide conflict will wipe out most of the people of
this world.
A new world of spiritual development will begin. The leaders of that
world will be spiritual teachers. They will guide the planet into an
age of Oneness and enlightenment for all. The resurection of true
mankind.
Then, like all things, that world will also end.
Claire
> Michael Christ wrote:
> > The Lord has been replaced...................
>
> Indeed - and it happens every day - by a new religion - that renders the
> old ones false
>
> OVer the centuries - it has happened so often as to be comical.
>
> In fact - it happens often in christianity - where there are now over
> 39,000 different organized sect - according to the Jesuit University -
That’s what happens when you think for yourself rather than letting
the Pope tell you what to think I guess! Some of those "sects" are
plain nuts but most of them are just fellow-Christians just like
Catholics are. If there is "one true faith" I am fairly convinced only
God will be able to discern it but that it is unlikely to be the
Catholic church! ;-) It is the big things that we all have in common
which matter. I remember an episode of The Simpsons mocking this
obsession with differences however small; “we’ve always been separate
from them ever since the great separation of 1750, and that was over
our right to go to church with wet hair!!” :-D
Claire
> The Lord has been replaced...................
>
> ....................................by the bible.
>
> It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
> written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
> you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>
> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
> theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
> righteous according to the Word.
>
> Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
Most "evangelical" Christians are not like this at all though to be
fair. There are a few obsessed with rules at the expense of the holy
spirit, just like there are Catholics falling into this trap The thing
I respect about that tradition and one of the reasons I am a Baptist
not a Catholic is that the central point is Christ's teachings. We are
all Christians anyway.
Claire
> In article <4afdf2f3$0$31266$607ed...@cv.net>, Thommadura> > >> Let the Record show that "Michael Christ" <JesusisL...@Father.com> on
Hmmm, in the meantime, would you like a cup of tea? ;-)
Michael Christ
"Claire" <claireo...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:5edc375b-3a76-4532...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On 13 Nov, 05:53, "Michael Christ" <JesusisL...@Father.com> wrote:
> The Lord has been replaced...................
>
> ....................................by the bible.
>
> It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
> written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
> you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>
> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their
> personalised
> theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
> righteous according to the Word.
>
> Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
Claire wrote:
>Most "evangelical" Christians are not like this at all though to be
>fair. There are a few obsessed with rules at the expense of the holy
>spirit, just like there are Catholics falling into this trap The thing
>I respect about that tradition and one of the reasons I am a Baptist
>not a Catholic is that the central point is Christ's teachings. We are
>all Christians anyway.
All the organised religions are man-made...Baptists, Catholic, whoever.
Don't believe me?
Just look at them...really look.
The real Church is the righteousness of the Lord, and not one jot or tittle
less.
The multitude have been duped by spiritual wickedness in high places with
the lust for this life and all its material value, and only because the
multitude want it that way.
Since when did losing your life to the Lord become an unachievable
'process'? All your heart has become nothing more than a hopeful
eventuality and not one to be taken will too much concern.
The modern churches are just a Babylon.
Michael Christ
Claire
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
Please accept my apologies Michael, I misunderstood your post as a bit
of veiled sectarianism! I see what you are saying and think you are
right to a big degree but alas we have to choose where we worship.
Those moved by the Holy Spirit (rather than religious dogma) will be
able to identify with one another across these man-made divisions. I
think you’ll agree with that from what you say?
Thommadura
More NONSENSE
Mankind has become EDUCATED - and over time has learned NOT to believe
things just because someone says they are true. We now know enough to
request PROOF.
THere will always be CON MEN - and CROOKS who try to pull the wool over
the eyes of people - such as the NONSENSE of "spiritualism" - which has
NO provable basis in fact.
THe day of oneness will never happen - unfortunately - as long as Humans
desire to get ahead of others. The attempt of Communism to make everyone
actually equal - although never really implemented on a large scale (The
so called Communist countries - were really dictatorships with different
classes) - was a failure.
But while it is likely the earth will end - the world (now called
Universe) will not do that. As long as energy cannot be created or
destroyed -there will always be existence - and that means there will
always be a universe - as there always has been one.
Thommadura
> On 13 Nov, 13:12, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Michael Christ wrote:
>>> The Lord has been replaced...................
>> Indeed - and it happens every day - by a new religion - that renders the
>> old ones false
>>
>> OVer the centuries - it has happened so often as to be comical.
>>
>> In fact - it happens often in christianity - where there are now over
>> 39,000 different organized sect - according to the Jesuit University -
>
> the Pope tell you what to think I guess! Some of those "sects" are
> plain nuts but most of them are just fellow-Christians just like
> Catholics are. If there is "one true faith" I am fairly convinced only
> God will be able to discern it but that it is unlikely to be the
> Catholic church! ;-)
SOrry - but a "god" remains an unproven thing
However - I have no reason to accept you have any knowledge that is
higher than that of the leaders of the catholic church either. THey
spend their entire lives with it - I see no such credentials for you.
Which now lead us to the obvious - PROOF -
Which none of you have
It is the big things that we all have in common
> which matter. I remember an episode of The Simpsons mocking this
> obsession with differences however small; �we�ve always been separate
> from them ever since the great separation of 1750, and that was over
> our right to go to church with wet hair!!� :-D
Thommadura
> On 13 Nov, 05:53, "Michael Christ" <JesusisL...@Father.com> wrote:
>> The Lord has been replaced...................
>>
>> ....................................by the bible.
>>
>> It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>> written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
>> you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>>
>> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
>> theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>> righteous according to the Word.
>>
>> Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>
>
> Most "evangelical" Christians are not like this at all though to be
> fair. There are a few obsessed with rules at the expense of the holy
> spirit, just like there are Catholics falling into this trap The thing
> I respect about that tradition and one of the reasons I am a Baptist
> not a Catholic is that the central point is Christ's teachings. We are
> all Christians anyway.
No - the majority of the people of the earth are NOT christians
Thommadura
>
> "Claire" <claireo...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:5edc375b-3a76-4532...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On 13 Nov, 05:53, "Michael Christ" <JesusisL...@Father.com> wrote:
>> The Lord has been replaced...................
>>
>> ....................................by the bible.
>>
>> It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>> written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
>> you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>>
>> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their
>> personalised
>> theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>> righteous according to the Word.
>>
>> Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>
> Claire wrote:
>> Most "evangelical" Christians are not like this at all though to be
>> fair. There are a few obsessed with rules at the expense of the holy
>> spirit, just like there are Catholics falling into this trap The thing
>> I respect about that tradition and one of the reasons I am a Baptist
>> not a Catholic is that the central point is Christ's teachings. We are
>> all Christians anyway.
>
> All the organised religions are man-made...Baptists, Catholic, whoever.
That would include YOUR belief as well -
And since all religious belief if MAN MADE - then gods are man made too.
>
> Don't believe me?
>
> Just look at them...really look.
>
> The real Church is the righteousness of the Lord, and not one jot or
> tittle less.
>
> The multitude have been duped by spiritual wickedness in high places
> with the lust for this life and all its material value, and only because
> the multitude want it that way.
>
> Since when did losing your life to the Lord become an unachievable
> 'process'?
It is unachievable when no "lord" can prove its own existence - making
the "lord" just another MAN-MADE thing.
Thommadura
No - we can choose NOT to worship HUMAN created gods and idols - since
there is NO need for us to - and no provable reason to.
Imagine all the good the wasted time and money spent on religion could do.
We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
research - and provide cures to more people.
If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
So - prayer is simply an excuse.
Claire
> Claire wrote:
> > On 13 Nov, 13:12, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> Michael Christ wrote:
> >>> The Lord has been replaced...................
> >> Indeed - and it happens every day - by a new religion - that renders the
> >> old ones false
>
> >> OVer the centuries - it has happened so often as to be comical.
>
> >> In fact - it happens often in christianity - where there are now over
> >> 39,000 different organized sect - according to the Jesuit University -
>
> > the Pope tell you what to think I guess! Some of those "sects" are
> > plain nuts but most of them are just fellow-Christians just like
> > Catholics are. If there is "one true faith" I am fairly convinced only
> > God will be able to discern it but that it is unlikely to be the
> > Catholic church! ;-)
>
> SOrry - but a "god" remains an unproven thing
God is also disprovable!!! :-) I tell you though – I know that God
exists. I trust in Him and am aware of his presence. So here the two
of us are and neither of us can prove it empirically either way.
However I have grounds to believe in God based on my experience so I
don’t think you can dismiss Him quite so easily. Certainly not coupled
with the big questions; how are we here? Why are we here? What happens
when we are no longer here?!
> However - I have no reason to accept you have any knowledge that is
> higher than that of the leaders of the catholic church either. THey
> spend their entire lives with it - I see no such credentials for you.
Well, I don’t want to get into that one! ;-) Obviously Christians
disagree about some of the details and that is only human.
Claire
No. I was not talking about the whole planet but they are welcome to
come to church - we could make some space lol!! ;-)
Claire
Like Tearfund, World Vision etc you mean
> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
> research - and provide cures to more people.
I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>
> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has
no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is
without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I
wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his
physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself,
if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say,
"You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what
I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons
believe that—and shudder.
Matthew 25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who
are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his
angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was
thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you
did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I
was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or
thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did
not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for
one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Thommadura
NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>
>
>> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
>> research - and provide cures to more people.
>
> I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
Gee - another MONKFISH.
Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
religions - gods CANNOT exist. And Mammon is just another fictional
character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>
>> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
>> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
>> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
>> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
>> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
>> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
>> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>>
>> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>
> James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>
Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
of any other religion
FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
wars and to disease to be re-grown.
We have NO example of that ever happening =-
IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
ThomM
> On 14 Nov, 12:53, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Claire wrote:
> > > On 13 Nov, 13:12, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > >> Michael Christ wrote:
> > >>> The Lord has been replaced...................
> > >> Indeed - and it happens every day - by a new religion - that renders the
> > >> old ones false
>
> > >> OVer the centuries - it has happened so often as to be comical.
>
> > >> In fact - it happens often in christianity - where there are now over
> > >> 39,000 different organized sect - according to the Jesuit University -
>
> > > That’s what happens when you think for yourself rather than letting
> > > the Pope tell you what to think I guess! Some of those "sects" are
> > > plain nuts but most of them are just fellow-Christians just like
> > > Catholics are. If there is "one true faith" I am fairly convinced only
> > > God will be able to discern it but that it is unlikely to be the
> > > Catholic church! ;-)
>
> > SOrry - but a "god" remains an unproven thing
>
> God is also disprovable!!! :
Actually that is TRUE
Sure - all we need to do is use the definition of a god from your
religion.
A god is supposed to be ALmighty - All knowing - ALL loving -All just
- All fair - ALL GOOD- ALL forgiving - AND eternal(NO beginning and no
end) - according to religion.
If a god is eternally a god - it was NOT born in bethlehem - and could
not die on a cross. IF it was totally human - it could NOT bring back
rotting corpses from the grave - or perform other miracles - or for
that matter raise itself from the dead. Of course - since Bethlehem
did not exist at that time - we already know he could not have been
born there. WE also know that the ROmans collected taxes at the end of
the Harvest - not in the middle of winter.
IF a god is ALL KNOWING - the it know everything that WILL happen for
all time - everything is therefore PREORDAINED - and there is no
possibility of doing something other than what is KNOWN already.
So that god cannot be almighty - it cannot change its mind from what
it already knows.
IF there is only ONE god - and therefore ONLY ONE creator - then the
ONE creator had to create EVERYTHING - good and evil. THerefore IT
cannot be ALL good. THere is NO mention of your god giving the power
of creation to any other.
So - yes -= your god is DISPROVED. A god - as defined by the
christian belief - is SIMPLY not possible to exist.
Claire
>
> NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>
Er, like what?
> >> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
> >> research - and provide cures to more people.
>
> > I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
>
> Gee - another MONKFISH.
I have not found a definition of that piece of American slang but I
can imagine what it means.
> Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
Those who are yes of course else they are not Christians. Having said
that Jesus said that to truly follow him we would have to give all our
possessions to the poor, and I’m still sitting in my unsold house!
However those who make vast fortunes at other people’s expense are the
reason we have hunger in the world
> Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
> religions - gods CANNOT exist.
In English??
>And Mammon is just another fictional
> character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>
<shrug> Regardless of what you believe though you yourself said there
was hunger in this world when there need not be. You cannot deny that
greed is the cause of this. Nor can you deny that Christianity (and to
be fair most religions) teach against the love of money whilst by the
values of the world making money gives you status and influence.
> >> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
> >> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
> >> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
> >> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
> >> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
> >> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
> >> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>
> >> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>
> > James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>
> Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
> says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
> of any other religion
You miss the point. Those not adhering to this teaching are not real
Christians because this is what Christ taught.
>
> FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
Why should it happen?
> IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst – that is what they tell us!
At any rate you aassume the crusades were in keeping with Christ’s
teaching just because they were fought in His name??
> HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
There is only one God. Christians Jews and Muslims share many of the
same prophets so in essence we were fighting over the same God even
though the Muslims rejected Christ and added a lot of wrong bits which
have lead them off course. In fairness some of the passages of the
Koran are very beautiful indeed and many Pastors study it at
theological college.
>
> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as “children of the book”
However they think we are the ones in the wrong.
Claire
> > God is also disprovable!!! :
>
> Actually that is TRUE
>
> Sure - all we need to do is use the definition of a god from your
> religion.
>
> A god is supposed to be ALmighty - All knowing - ALL loving -All just
> - All fair - ALL GOOD- ALL forgiving - AND eternal(NO beginning and no
> end) - according to religion.
>
> If a god is eternally a god - it was NOT born in bethlehem - and could
> not die on a cross. IF it was totally human - it could NOT bring back
> rotting corpses from the grave - or perform other miracles - or for
> that matter raise itself from the dead.
It’s the mystery of the trinity. God the father, God the son and God
the Holy Spirit. Different but the same. Like ice, water and steam!
> Of course - since Bethlehem
> did not exist at that time - we already know he could not have been
> born there.
Errr??? I suppose nobody could be born in Milton Keynes until they
built a town on it? ;-)
WE also know that the ROmans collected taxes at the end of
> the Harvest - not in the middle of winter.
So you are questioning Christian traditions about when we celebrate
Christmas? Thats OK.
>
> IF a god is ALL KNOWING - the it know everything that WILL happen for
> all time - everything is therefore PREORDAINED -
Calvin beat you to that idea several centuries ago with his theory of
"predestination". That is the idea that God knows in advance who is
saved and who is not saved. However he did not think "whats the point
of doing anything" since he recognised that nobody except God could
know who the "elect" group of saved people were.
> and there is no
> possibility of doing something other than what is KNOWN already.
> So that god cannot be almighty - it cannot change its mind from what
> it already knows.
I guess it would depend who you ask about this what answer you get. I
tend to think that God does not really change his mind since that
would suggest He makes mistakes and cannot foresee the future.
> IF there is only ONE god - and therefore ONLY ONE creator - then the
> ONE creator had to create EVERYTHING - good and evil. THerefore IT
> cannot be ALL good. THere is NO mention of your god giving the power
> of creation to any other.
>
Another area for theological debate. I believe that Satan, like God,
exists outside of creation as God is Good and would not create
anything wicked. Our susceptibility to Evil exists as a consequence of
the fall and is part of being human. We might never know in this world
why God made us as He did but we believe He did and we should focus on
His goodness and fight against evil.
> So - yes -= your god is DISPROVED
Nope! :-)
ThomM
> > > God is also disprovable!!! :
>
> > Actually that is TRUE
>
> > Sure - all we need to do is use the definition of a god from your
> > religion.
>
> > A god is supposed to be ALmighty - All knowing - ALL loving -All just
> > - All fair - ALL GOOD- ALL forgiving - AND eternal(NO beginning and no
> > end) - according to religion.
>
> > If a god is eternally a god - it was NOT born in bethlehem - and could
> > not die on a cross. IF it was totally human - it could NOT bring back
> > rotting corpses from the grave - or perform other miracles - or for
> > that matter raise itself from the dead.
>
> It’s the mystery of the trinity. God the father, God the son and God
> the Holy Spirit. Different but the same. Like ice, water and steam!
Sorry - but water - ice - and steam - do not bring rotting corpses
back to life either
The trinity is NOT a mystery - it is a bunch of double talk.
IF you have ONE god - you have ONE god.
Since YOUR god is A myth - the trinitiy is ALSO a MYTH
>
> > Of course - since Bethlehem
> > did not exist at that time - we already know he could not have been
> > born there.
>
> Errr??? I suppose nobody could be born in Milton Keynes until they
> built a town on it? ;-)
Actually - if it did not exist - that is correct.
>
> WE also know that the ROmans collected taxes at the end of
>
> > the Harvest - not in the middle of winter.
>
> So you are questioning Christian traditions about when we celebrate
> Christmas? Thats OK.
Sure - since they have no basis in fact
>
>
>
> > IF a god is ALL KNOWING - the it know everything that WILL happen for
> > all time - everything is therefore PREORDAINED -
>
> Calvin beat you to that idea several centuries ago with his theory of
> "predestination". That is the idea that God knows in advance who is
> saved and who is not saved. However he did not think "whats the point
> of doing anything" since he recognised that nobody except God could
> know who the "elect" group of saved people were.
INDEED - except that the TERMS as defined in our language remain what
they are.
And it remains that if a god is ALL knowing - then NO choices exist.
AS far as what is the point of doing anything - since the gods are
MYTHS - the point is that is has no bearing on what we actually do -
it is a fictional story
>
> > and there is no
> > possibility of doing something other than what is KNOWN already.
> > So that god cannot be almighty - it cannot change its mind from what
> > it already knows.
>
> I guess it would depend who you ask about this what answer you get. I
> tend to think that God does not really change his mind since that
> would suggest He makes mistakes and cannot foresee the future.
Ah - so then what do you call his creation of EVIL then? PLANNED
- !!!!
>
> > IF there is only ONE god - and therefore ONLY ONE creator - then the
> > ONE creator had to create EVERYTHING - good and evil. THerefore IT
> > cannot be ALL good. THere is NO mention of your god giving the power
> > of creation to any other.
>
> Another area for theological debate. I believe that Satan, like God,
> exists outside of creation as God is Good and would not create
> anything wicked.
Then there has to be another creator - and that means that there is
NOT one god.
However - since your god CLAIMED to create evil - in the bible - which
you claim to be true - then your statement makes no sense again.
Our susceptibility to Evil exists as a consequence of
> the fall and is part of being human.
Nonsense - we had no fall - that is also a MYTH - we KNOW that humans
existed on earth long before the Garden Of EDEN nonsense. in fact -
the story itself is wrong too. IF a god is ALL JUST - then he blames
ONLY those who committed a crime for that crime - ie NO guilt by
association - which is inherently UNJUST. SO - only ONE person would
have been blamed - not all of mankind. And since the christ died to
save us - and that supposedly already happened (It is a myth -
remember) - we have no further need for saving!
According to the timeline of the bible - and the Hebrews had a very
good understanding of TIME and dates - that continues to this day -
the earth was created in 4004 BCE
.OF course - we have Human Skulls that are dated to 200,000 BCE -
again pointing out the folly.
ThomM
> > > Like Tearfund, World Vision etc you mean
>
> > NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>
> Er, like what?
>
> > >> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
> > >> research - and provide cures to more people.
>
> > > I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
>
> > Gee - another MONKFISH.
He posts to this group and is another MAMMON mentioner.
Yet - neither of you prove such a thing exists - much less a god does
either
SO that is dismissed as UNSUPPORTED by you.
>
> I have not found a definition of that piece of American slang but I
> can imagine what it means.
>
> > Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
>
> Those who are yes of course else they are not Christians.
Sorry - a christian is simply a person who claims one of his gods to
be the christ. Since HITLER claimed that the christ approved of his
actions - and he was a CATHOLIC -Hitler was also a christian.
Somehow - you christians like to claim what a true christian is -
without proving the story to begin with.
Having said
> that Jesus said that to truly follow him we would have to give all our
> possessions to the poor, and I’m still sitting in my unsold house!
And since the christ NEVER actually is proven to have said anything -
sell your house and use the money yourself.
> However those who make vast fortunes at other people’s expense are the
> reason we have hunger in the world
Sorry - but that is NONSENSE
The reason why we have hunger in this world is because humans have
children that they are not prepared to provide for.
Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>
> > Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
> > religions - gods CANNOT exist.
>
> In English??
Or any other language
>
> >And Mammon is just another fictional
> > character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>
> <shrug> Regardless of what you believe though you yourself said there
> was hunger in this world when there need not be. You cannot deny that
> greed is the cause of this.
I actually did disagree with you. - because YOU are wrong.
Nor can you deny that Christianity (and to
> be fair most religions) teach against the love of money whilst by the
> values of the world making money gives you status and influence.
Sorry - but I have never attended a Sunday Mass - where the christians
ministers told the people NOT to give money to the church. Tomorrow -
which is Sunday here - there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
already has two jet planes too)
>
> > >> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
> > >> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
> > >> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
> > >> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
> > >> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
> > >> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
> > >> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>
> > >> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>
> > > James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>
> > Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
> > says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
> > of any other religion
>
> You miss the point. Those not adhering to this teaching are not real
> Christians because this is what Christ taught.
YOU miss the point - the christ remains a belief and is NOT proven to
exist - much less say any thing. Those teaching are frauds - put
together by HUMANS - just like those who wrote the bible.
>
>
>
> > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> Why should it happen?
Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
asked in faith by lots of people.
AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>
> > IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> > why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> > they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>
> Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst – that is what they tell us!
YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL nation - they
completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
> At any rate you aassume the crusades were in keeping with Christ’s
> teaching just because they were fought in His name??
>
> > HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
>
> There is only one God.
Again - -that is simply FALSE - there are MILLIONS of gods- I could
give you a list of several hundred off the top on my head.
All of their adherants claim the same things - and deny the other gods
- as you are doing.YET - none of their gods are any more proven than
any other. For example =- the Church of the FSM - claims that their
god is the FATHER of the christ - and offers a MILLION dollar reward
to anyone who can prove them wrong. (THe FSM is the Flying Spaghetti
MONSTER)
WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
check.
IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>
> > Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>
> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as “children of the book”
> However they think we are the ones in the wrong.
And NONE of you can prove you are right.
Thommadura
> There is only one God.
Since YOUR religion has THREE of them alone.(the trinity is NONSENSE -
even the bible proves that one) - which two are YOU leaving OUT?
IF you say they are ONE god - then what YOU are saying is that the god
who died on the cross is the SAME god -called the father - who
supposedly created everything.
Yet - he supposedly said - this is MY son - in whom I am well pleased
HE never said - this is another form of ME in whom I am well pleased
with myself!
And if the god that supposedly died on the cross is the same ONE GOD -
why would HE say - FATHER - why have YOU forsaken me? He should have
said - ME - why did I do this to myself.
And if they are ALL the same god - then the story of the christ coming
to earth TOTALLY human is therefore FALSE - since the ONE god was still
a god. ANd if the christ IS NOT the same god as the ONE GOD - then the
trinitiy is nonsense (Which it is)
I have heard the "one god" or "only real gods" claim from lots of
religions - and they all have TWO things in common - it is always a
HUMAN saying is - and no supernatural god has come forward with theM (Or
YOU) to verify the claim. So - I Have learned to ignore things YOU and
other theist present without PROOF. An almighty god would be able to
prove itself - apparently NONE of them can.
However - your claim that there is only one god - is clearly wrong - I
could give you a list of a hundred - and YOU could not disprove ANY of
them either.
Fred Thomas
> > God is also disprovable!!! :
>
> Actually that is TRUE
>
> Sure - all we need to do is use the definition of a god from your
> religion.
>
> A god is supposed to be ALmighty - All knowing - ALL loving -All just
> - All fair - ALL GOOD- ALL forgiving - AND eternal(NO beginning and no
> end) - according to religion.
>
> If a god is eternally a god - it was NOT born in bethlehem - and could
> not die on a cross. IF it was totally human - it could NOT bring back
> rotting corpses from the grave - or perform other miracles - or for
> that matter raise itself from the dead.
It�s the mystery of the trinity. God the father, God the son and God
the Holy Spirit. Different but the same. Like ice, water and steam!
The Egyptians thought of the trinity concept first, yours is a forgery...
14th century B.C.E.: The Trinity of Thebes. (It predates the Christian
Trinity.) Egyptian text reads, �All gods are three: Amon, Re, and Ptah, and
there is no second to them.�
> Of course - since Bethlehem
> did not exist at that time - we already know he could not have been
> born there.
Errr??? I suppose nobody could be born in Milton Keynes until they
built a town on it? ;-)
WE also know that the ROmans collected taxes at the end of
> the Harvest - not in the middle of winter.
So you are questioning Christian traditions about when we celebrate
Christmas? Thats OK.
>
> IF a god is ALL KNOWING - the it know everything that WILL happen for
> all time - everything is therefore PREORDAINED -
Calvin beat you to that idea several centuries ago with his theory of
"predestination". That is the idea that God knows in advance who is
saved and who is not saved. However he did not think "whats the point
of doing anything" since he recognised that nobody except God could
know who the "elect" group of saved people were.
Egyptian beat Calvin by a LOT!!!!
22nd century B.C.E.: In the Egyptian document The Instruction of Ptahhotep
appears the doctrine of predestination:
Michael Christ
Claire wrote:
Please accept my apologies Michael, I misunderstood your post as a bit
of veiled sectarianism! I see what you are saying and think you are
right to a big degree but alas we have to choose where we worship.
Those moved by the Holy Spirit (rather than religious dogma) will be
able to identify with one another across these man-made divisions. I
think you�ll agree with that from what you say?
Mike:
Yes, I do because it is the truth.
Michael Christ
Michael Christ
Claire wrote:
>No. I was not talking about the whole planet but they are welcome to
>come to church - we could make some space lol!! ;-)
Claire, don't let Thommadura and ThomM waste your time. They will not
reason; at best they pretend to. All they are interested in is jumping up
and down all the day long saying there is no God. That in itself speaks
volumes.
They are a couple of atheists with an agenda who pretend to be agnostics.
Both could be naked and swimming in the middle of the Pacific ocean and
still deny they are wet. In fact that is the reality.
Michael Christ
Claire
> On Nov 14, 2:53 pm, Claire <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Like Tearfund, World Vision etc you mean
>
> > > NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>
> > Er, like what?
>
> > > >> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
> > > >> research - and provide cures to more people.
>
> > > > I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
>
> > > Gee - another MONKFISH.
I
> > can imagine what it means.
> He posts to this group and is another MAMMON mentioner.
Oh!! <blush> :-)
> Yet - neither of you prove such a thing exists
Money exists. If it is worshipped that’s idolatry.
- much less a god does
> either
> SO that is dismissed as UNSUPPORTED by you.
>
Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
1. How did we get here?
2. Why are we here?
3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket – sorry, die?
> > > Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
>
> > Those who are yes of course else they are not Christians.
>
> Sorry - a christian is simply a person who claims one of his gods to
> be the christ. Since HITLER claimed that the christ approved of his
> actions - and he was a CATHOLIC -Hitler was also a christian.
Within the internal logic of the Christian belief-system you can tell
that is wrong without believing in God since the Bible states that
even Satan believed in Christ and even the Demons believe there is but
one God.
>
> Somehow - you christians like to claim what a true christian is -
> without proving the story to begin with.
You can assess it by how true to scripture something is. Nazism was
based on the occult.
>
> Having said
>
> > that Jesus said that to truly follow him we would have to give all our
> > possessions to the poor, and I’m still sitting in my unsold house!
>
> And since the christ NEVER actually is proven to have said anything -
> sell your house and use the money yourself.
But I quite like my house! God knows that. The point Christ was making
was about selflessness
>
> > However those who make vast fortunes at other people’s expense are the
> > reason we have hunger in the world
>
> Sorry - but that is NONSENSE
>
> The reason why we have hunger in this world is because humans have
> children that they are not prepared to provide for.
And you seriously believe that???
>
> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>
They’re called Bankers and big business.
>
> > > Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
> > > religions - gods CANNOT exist.
>
> > In English??
>
> Or any other language
Can’t translate something to make sense in one language that does not
make any sense in anther!
> > >And Mammon is just another fictional
> > > character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>
> > <shrug> Regardless of what you believe though you yourself said there
> > was hunger in this world when there need not be. You cannot deny that
> > greed is the cause of this.
>
> I actually did disagree with you. - because YOU are wrong.
>
> Nor can you deny that Christianity (and to
>
> > be fair most religions) teach against the love of money whilst by the
> > values of the world making money gives you status and influence.
>
> Sorry - but I have never attended a Sunday Mass - where the christians
> ministers told the people NOT to give money to the church.
Yes and that money SHOULD be used to build the church and do good
works.
>Tomorrow -
> which is Sunday here
Same here! :-)
>there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> already has two jet planes too)
I can’t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > >> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
> > > >> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
> > > >> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
> > > >> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
> > > >> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
> > > >> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
> > > >> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>
> > > >> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>
> > > > James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>
> > > Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
> > > says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
> > > of any other religion
>
> > You miss the point. Those not adhering to this teaching are not real
> > Christians because this is what Christ taught.
>
> YOU miss the point - the christ remains a belief and is NOT proven to
> exist - much less say any thing. Those teaching are frauds - put
> together by HUMANS - just like
Well there was a person called Jesus – that is a fact.
Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
faith.
> > > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> > Why should it happen?
>
> Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> asked in faith by lots of people.
I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
meant.
>
> AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
> from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>
>
>
> > > IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> > > why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> > > they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>
> > Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst – that is what they tell us!
>
> YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
> And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
Excuse me???
> nation - they
> completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
Not really. It was run by the British!
>
> I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
whatever really.
>
> > At any rate you aassume the crusades were in keeping with Christ’s
> > teaching just because they were fought in His name??
>
> > > HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
>
> > There is only one God.
>
> Again - -that is simply FALSE - there are MILLIONS of gods- I could
> give you a list of several hundred off the top on my head.
>
> All of their adherants claim the same things - and deny the other gods
> - as you are doing.YET - none of their gods are any more proven than
> any other. For example =- the Church of the FSM - claims that their
> god is the FATHER of the christ - and offers a MILLION dollar reward
> to anyone who can prove them wrong. (THe FSM is the Flying Spaghetti
> MONSTER)
It is called faith. (I doubt the Church of the FSM, if such a thing
exists, really believe in the FSM)
>
> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
> check.
> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>
>
>
> > > Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>
> > Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
> > describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as “children of the book”
> > However they think we are the ones in the wrong.
>
> And NONE of you can prove you are right.
Its called faith.
Fred Thomas
On 14 Nov, 21:16, ThomM <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Nov 14, 2:53 pm, Claire <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Like Tearfund, World Vision etc you mean
>
> > > NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>
> > Er, like what?
>
> > > >> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
> > > >> research - and provide cures to more people.
>
> > > > I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
>
> > > Gee - another MONKFISH.
> > I have not found a definition of that piece of American slang but
I
> > can imagine what it means.
> He posts to this group and is another MAMMON mentioner.
Oh!! <blush> :-)
> Yet - neither of you prove such a thing exists
Money exists. If it is worshipped that�s idolatry.
- much less a god does
> either
> SO that is dismissed as UNSUPPORTED by you.
>
Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
1. How did we get here?
2. Why are we here?
3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket � sorry, die?
1) evolution
2) because we are alive
3) worm food, we rot.
Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
> > > Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
>
> > Those who are yes of course else they are not Christians.
>
> Sorry - a christian is simply a person who claims one of his gods to
> be the christ. Since HITLER claimed that the christ approved of his
> actions - and he was a CATHOLIC -Hitler was also a christian.
Within the internal logic of the Christian belief-system you can tell
that is wrong without believing in God since the Bible states that
even Satan believed in Christ and even the Demons believe there is but
one God.
>
> Somehow - you christians like to claim what a true christian is -
> without proving the story to begin with.
You can assess it by how true to scripture something is. Nazism was
based on the occult.
>
> Having said
>
> > that Jesus said that to truly follow him we would have to give all our
> > possessions to the poor, and I�m still sitting in my unsold house!
>
> And since the christ NEVER actually is proven to have said anything -
> sell your house and use the money yourself.
But I quite like my house! God knows that. The point Christ was making
was about selflessness
>
> > However those who make vast fortunes at other people�s expense are the
> > reason we have hunger in the world
>
> Sorry - but that is NONSENSE
>
> The reason why we have hunger in this world is because humans have
> children that they are not prepared to provide for.
And you seriously believe that???
>
> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>
They�re called Bankers and big business.
>
> > > Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
> > > religions - gods CANNOT exist.
>
> > In English??
>
> Or any other language
Can�t translate something to make sense in one language that does not
make any sense in anther!
> > >And Mammon is just another fictional
> > > character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>
> > <shrug> Regardless of what you believe though you yourself said there
> > was hunger in this world when there need not be. You cannot deny that
> > greed is the cause of this.
>
> I actually did disagree with you. - because YOU are wrong.
>
> Nor can you deny that Christianity (and to
>
> > be fair most religions) teach against the love of money whilst by the
> > values of the world making money gives you status and influence.
>
> Sorry - but I have never attended a Sunday Mass - where the christians
> ministers told the people NOT to give money to the church.
Yes and that money SHOULD be used to build the church and do good
works.
>Tomorrow -
> which is Sunday here
Same here! :-)
>there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> already has two jet planes too)
I can�t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
Thats called good acting.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > >> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
> > > >> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you
> > > >> say
> > > >> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
> > > >> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
> > > >> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
> > > >> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
> > > >> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>
> > > >> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>
> > > > James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>
> > > Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
> > > says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
> > > of any other religion
>
> > You miss the point. Those not adhering to this teaching are not real
> > Christians because this is what Christ taught.
>
> YOU miss the point - the christ remains a belief and is NOT proven to
> exist - much less say any thing. Those teaching are frauds - put
> together by HUMANS - just like
Well there was a person called Jesus � that is a fact.
Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
faith.
It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been proven
to be factually alive.
> > > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> > Why should it happen?
>
> Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> asked in faith by lots of people.
I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
meant.
Then "god" should not have promised it.
>
> AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
> from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>
>
>
> > > IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> > > why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> > > they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>
> > Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst � that is what they tell us!
>
> YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
> And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
Excuse me???
Yes the U.S. led the way and pushed hard for the creation of the nation.
> nation - they
> completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
Not really. It was run by the British!
Well, not exactly.After the war Britain was bankrupt and world power was pretty
much divided between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.
>
> I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
whatever really.
Promised by whom?
>
> > At any rate you aassume the crusades were in keeping with Christ�s
> > teaching just because they were fought in His name??
>
> > > HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
>
> > There is only one God.
>
> Again - -that is simply FALSE - there are MILLIONS of gods- I could
> give you a list of several hundred off the top on my head.
>
> All of their adherants claim the same things - and deny the other gods
> - as you are doing.YET - none of their gods are any more proven than
> any other. For example =- the Church of the FSM - claims that their
> god is the FATHER of the christ - and offers a MILLION dollar reward
> to anyone who can prove them wrong. (THe FSM is the Flying Spaghetti
> MONSTER)
It is called faith. (I doubt the Church of the FSM, if such a thing
exists, really believe in the FSM)
Faith is lazy, you take the word of some one with out looking into it. A con
mans favorite pigeon, some one with faith.
>
> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
> check.
> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>
>
>
> > > Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>
> > Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
> > describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as �children of the book�
Claire
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
lol. I like that! It is sad how Thommadura (are he and ThomM the same
poster?) asks God to prove Himself when although it seems so
impossible to him I can see that all he has to be open to the Holy
Spirit. "There are none so blind as they who will not see". I remember
how I drove everybody crazy arguing and in the end it come down to
whether or not I wanted to believe. Once I at least wanted to believe
and was willing against my doubts to give it a chance that little
mustard seed blew my way and God took care of the rest, and is still
taking care of the rest! :-) I have to pinch myself thinking how far
it seemed to me I’d have to travel from not believing to believing -
and yet it was only really my stubbornness that held things up! But if
it is meant to be it will be. He obviously feels a desire to discuss
it at least and like me he might look up from his work one day and
suddenly feel it. Yes! Lord, I feel it in my heart not just wanting to
believe and rationalising it in the head! I remember my joy that day!
One thing he has to remember is that he will not lose his ability to
think for himself by finding faith (that was one of my rather
irrational fears about believing)
pyotr filipivich
14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>
>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>
>1. How did we get here?
>2. Why are we here?
>
>1) evolution
>2) because we are alive
>3) worm food, we rot.
>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
animated mud.
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Fred Thomas
"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:qciuf51e65je9e2kc...@4ax.com...
> Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <fr...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
> 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>
>>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>>
>>1. How did we get here?
>>2. Why are we here?
>>
>>1) evolution
>>2) because we are alive
>>3) worm food, we rot.
>>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
> is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
> least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>
> Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
> animated mud.
> -
Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements. Is any one person
really significant? Is the fact that my heart beats and I think and reason an
illusion? No it's not an illusion, it's not an illusion that you responded to a
post of mine, and I respond back.
pyotr filipivich
Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:55:12 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>In article <4afdf2f3$0$31266$607e...@cv.net>, Thommadura
><tomm...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael Christ wrote:
>> >> Let the Record show that "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> on
>> >> appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> >>>
>> >>> ....................................by the bible.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>> >>> written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes
>> >>> anyone
>> >>> you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>> >>>
>> >>> And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their
>> >>> personalised
>> >>> theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>> >>> righteous according to the Word.
>> >>>
>> >>> Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>> >>>
>> >>> denomination you can name.
>> >>>
>> >>> The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched
>> >>> with the
>> >>> soiled hands of men.
>> >
>> >> IOW - the real church is hidden from mankind, the Kingdom of God
>> >> is not at hand, it hasn't prevailed against the gates of Hell, and
>> >> there is no way to know what was meant by the written records left
>> >> behind.
>> >>
>> >> bummer, dude.
>> >
>> > You gave perfect example of the original post.
>Thom Wrote:
>> At least he used the TRUTH in his
>I think there is much truth in the entire thread.
>
>Mankind has lost his way and become sick and delusional.
>The degeneration of modern mankind will continue.
You know, for some of us, this is not news. In fact, some of us
recognize "After all, these are Modern Times" as one of the two
classic Historical Cliches. (The other one is "The old days, they
were better.")
>Some kind of world-wide conflict will wipe out most of the people of
>this world.
>A new world of spiritual development will begin. The leaders of that
>world will be spiritual teachers. They will guide the planet into an
>age of Oneness and enlightenment for all. The resurection of true
>mankind.
>Then, like all things, that world will also end.
If you have a cyclical sense of history, I suppose that is
reassuring.
-
gabriel
<Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
: The Lord has been replaced...................
:
: ....................................by the bible.
:
: It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
: written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
: you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
:
: And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
: theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
: righteous according to the Word.
:
: Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
:
: And that is exactly what is happening throughout the earth with every
: denomination you can name.
:
: The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched with the
: soiled hands of men.
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:58:22 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
: Heard this before but maybe you haven't...
:
: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
:
: A man and his ever-nagging wife went on vacation to Jerusalem. While they
: were there, the wife passed away.
:
: The undertaker told the husband, "You can have her shipped home for $5000,
: or you can bury her here, in the Holy Land, for $150."
:
: The man thought about it and told him he would just have her shipped home.
:
: The undertaker asked, "Why would you spend $5000 to ship your wife home,
: when it would be wonderful to be buried here and you would spend only $150?"
:
: The man replied, "A long time ago a man died here, was buried here, and
: three days later he rose from the dead. I just can't take that chance."
:
:
:
: :-).
:
: Michael Christ
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:03:40 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
: [..]
: Holiness, righteousness and purity, without which a man will never be with
: God...has it registered yet? Or, are you just going to ignore it like an
: idiot while glorying in your awesome theological correctness?
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:16:00 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
:
: You must think the Lord is a complete blind dickhead.
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:26:35 GMT, "Michael Christ"
<Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
: ..
: You walk as though God is a blind complete dickhead.
:
:
:
:
: Michael Christ
Michael Christ
Claire wrote:
lol. I like that! It is sad how Thommadura (are he and ThomM the same
poster?) asks God to prove Himself when although it seems so
impossible to him I can see that all he has to be open to the Holy
Spirit. "There are none so blind as they who will not see". I remember
how I drove everybody crazy arguing and in the end it come down to
whether or not I wanted to believe. Once I at least wanted to believe
and was willing against my doubts to give it a chance that little
mustard seed blew my way and God took care of the rest, and is still
taking care of the rest! :-) I have to pinch myself thinking how far
it seemed to me I�d have to travel from not believing to believing -
and yet it was only really my stubbornness that held things up! But if
it is meant to be it will be. He obviously feels a desire to discuss
it at least and like me he might look up from his work one day and
suddenly feel it. Yes! Lord, I feel it in my heart not just wanting to
believe and rationalising it in the head! I remember my joy that day!
One thing he has to remember is that he will not lose his ability to
think for himself by finding faith (that was one of my rather
irrational fears about believing)
Mike:
Thommadura is ThomM's father, so we are told.
Yes I hear what you are saying...everything to gain, nothing to lose.
When I first came to the Lord, I said within my heart, oh heck (or something
similar :-) I'll give it a go. The rest is history, or His-story as the
clich� goes.
There are some though who will continue on banging their heads against a
brick wall for one reason and one reason only, because they want ***their***
way and so they continue doing what they are doing. I once had a friend who
said, 'I will go down in the mud shaking my fist at God." Go figure.
Crazy.
Michael Christ
Michael Christ
GreatSage
filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
The strong influence here is the precession of the equinoxes. The cycle
results in an "age of Light" as the position of the Milky Way moves
south in the northern sky to nearly overhead at the 45th parallel.,
followed by a dark age as the Milky Way "moves" north,
This is the basis of the story of Adam and Eve. The "serpent" is the
constellation Draco. (The dragon"). When the North Pole = DRACO, the
age of light (and enlightenment) is over. The world of Onenes becomes
the world of "twoness" good and evil. See the northern ecliptic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Precession_N.gif
We are now at the top (+2009). The head of Draco is opposite.
Thommadura
> On 14 Nov, 21:16, ThomM <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Nov 14, 2:53 pm, Claire <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Like Tearfund, World Vision etc you mean
>>>> NO - because there is still money wasted on religion in those.
>>> Er, like what?
>>>>>> We could actually wipe out hunger - we could better fund medical
>>>>>> research - and provide cures to more people.
>>>>> I doubt it. Not whilst the Mammon worshippers rule the world!
>>>> Gee - another MONKFISH.
> > > I have not found a definition of that piece of American slang but
> I
>>> can imagine what it means.
>
>
>> He posts to this group and is another MAMMON mentioner.
>
> Oh!! <blush> :-)
>
>> Yet - neither of you prove such a thing exists
>
>
> - much less a god does
>> either
>> SO that is dismissed as UNSUPPORTED by you.
>>
>
> Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>
> 1. How did we get here?
> 2. Why are we here?
>
>
>>>> Indeed - so christians should then stop doing it!
>>> Those who are yes of course else they are not Christians.
>> Sorry - a christian is simply a person who claims one of his gods to
>> be the christ. Since HITLER claimed that the christ approved of his
>> actions - and he was a CATHOLIC -Hitler was also a christian.
> Within the internal logic of the Christian belief-system you can tell
> that is wrong without believing in God since the Bible states that
> even Satan believed in Christ and even the Demons believe there is but
> one God.
>
>
>> Somehow - you christians like to claim what a true christian is -
>> without proving the story to begin with.
>
> You can assess it by how true to scripture something is. Nazism was
> based on the occult.
>
>> Having said
>>
>>> that Jesus said that to truly follow him we would have to give all our
>> And since the christ NEVER actually is proven to have said anything -
>> sell your house and use the money yourself.
>
> But I quite like my house! God knows that. The point Christ was making
> was about selflessness
>
>>> reason we have hunger in the world
>> Sorry - but that is NONSENSE
>>
>> The reason why we have hunger in this world is because humans have
>> children that they are not prepared to provide for.
>
> And you seriously believe that???
>
>> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
>> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>>
>
Sorry - but they are called CHURCHES
>
>>>> Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
>>>> religions - gods CANNOT exist.
>>> In English??
>> Or any other language
>
>
> Can�t translate something to make sense in one language that does not
> make any sense in anther!
Since I said it makes no sense in any other language - I agree
>
>>>> And Mammon is just another fictional
>>>> character in the arsenal of nonsense religion uses.
>>> <shrug> Regardless of what you believe though you yourself said there
>>> was hunger in this world when there need not be. You cannot deny that
>>> greed is the cause of this.
>> I actually did disagree with you. - because YOU are wrong.
>>
>> Nor can you deny that Christianity (and to
>>
>>> be fair most religions) teach against the love of money whilst by the
>>> values of the world making money gives you status and influence.
>> Sorry - but I have never attended a Sunday Mass - where the christians
>> ministers told the people NOT to give money to the church.
>
> Yes and that money SHOULD be used to build the church and do good
> works.
We don't need any more churches - there are LOTS of them empty and
abandoned right now.
I can agree that doing good works it worthwhile - we do not need AARON
Copeland - or any other CHURCH as a middle man.
>
>> Tomorrow -
>> which is Sunday here
>
> Same here! :-)
>
>> there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
>> will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
>> Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
>> NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
>> medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
>> already has two jet planes too)
>
> I can�t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
> ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
Really - how do they live - at the same level as their POOR contributors
as well.
THe year BEFORE he died - Jerry Fallwell"s church distributed finanacial
documents that said they paid his chauffeur a $250,000 dollar salary -
and he spent $1 million on vehicles alone.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> If there is ONE thing that religion teaches that is the antithesis of
>>>>>> what they claim is PRAYER. Prayer is the ULTIMATE inaction. When you say
>>>>>> that you will pray for someone - what you are actually saying is that
>>>>>> you have no interest in doing anything real to actually help that
>>>>>> person. YOu have to pawn off the responsibility of something that does
>>>>>> not exist - and will not therefore do anything - IF you actually do the
>>>>>> prayer to begin with - most probably do not.
>>>>>> So - prayer is simply an excuse.
>>>>> James 2:14-21 (New International Version)
>>>> Sorry - But I dismiss the bible as being nonsense - the fact that is
>>>> says something does NOT make it true - any more than ANY other scripture
>>>> of any other religion
>>> You miss the point. Those not adhering to this teaching are not real
>>> Christians because this is what Christ taught.
>> YOU miss the point - the christ remains a belief and is NOT proven to
>> exist - much less say any thing. Those teaching are frauds - put
>> together by HUMANS - just like
>
> Well there was a person called Jesus � that is a fact.
NO - sorry - it is a BELIEF - not a fact
There remains NO proof of exisence of the christ based on documents that
can be dated from his supposed time
> Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> faith.
If you believe in ONE GOD _ then he wasn't
>
>>>> FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
>>>> wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>>>> We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>>> Why should it happen?
>> Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
>> receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
>> asked in faith by lots of people.
>
> I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
> meant.
Then why say it - and say it OFTEN - then? (It appears at least 6 times
in the bible)
ANd then =- if a god doesn't say what it means - why beleive anything it
says then
>
>> AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
>> from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>>
>>
>>
>>>> IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
>>>> why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
>>>> they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>>> Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst � that is what they tell us!
>> YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
>
> That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
Try to Knock it down and see
>
>> And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
>
> Excuse me???
IF the USA had not recognized Israel and supported it financially for
years - it would have been gone Long ago.
>
>> nation - they
>> completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
>
> Not really. It was run by the British!
>
>> I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
>
> But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
> whatever really.
A messiah was also promised to the jews -
Among the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during
his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:
* Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple,
in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
* Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them
home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
* Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be
ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and
serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and
Zephaniah 3:9)
That didn't happen either
>
>>> At any rate you aassume the crusades were in keeping with Christ�s
>>> teaching just because they were fought in His name??
>>>> HEY - MAYBE they were praying to the WRONG GODS!
>>> There is only one God.
>> Again - -that is simply FALSE - there are MILLIONS of gods- I could
>> give you a list of several hundred off the top on my head.
>>
>> All of their adherants claim the same things - and deny the other gods
>> - as you are doing.YET - none of their gods are any more proven than
>> any other. For example =- the Church of the FSM - claims that their
>> god is the FATHER of the christ - and offers a MILLION dollar reward
>> to anyone who can prove them wrong. (THe FSM is the Flying Spaghetti
>> MONSTER)
>
> It is called faith. (I doubt the Church of the FSM, if such a thing
> exists, really believe in the FSM)
It does exist -
>
>> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
>> check.
>> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>>> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
>>> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as �children of the book�
>>> However they think we are the ones in the wrong.
>> And NONE of you can prove you are right.
>
> Its called faith.
But faith is NOT called truth
Truth remains something that does not require belief - since it is true
for ALL - regardless of your faith
And that is where the LIE comes in
Your belief is just that =- belief.
IT IS NOT proven truth - no matter what YOU claim
And to claim it is truth is a LIE. WHy bother telling people to believe
in YOUR religion = when YOU do not follow its own rules yourself.
Why can't theists just admit is it belief and stop lying about it?
Fred Thomas
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote in message
news:PtKLm.54996$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sounds like the first steps in drug addiction........I'll try it just once, what
can it hurt.........next thing you know your deluded into thinking you can stop
any time........
> There are some though who will continue on banging their heads against a brick
> wall for one reason and one reason only, because they want ***their*** way and
> so they continue doing what they are doing. I once had a friend who said, 'I
> will go down in the mud shaking my fist at God." Go figure. Crazy.
>
Yea.....crazy.........shaking a fist at a myth..........dude!
>
>
> Michael Christ
>
>
>
> Michael Christ
>
>
>
Thommadura
> Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <fr...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
> 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>>
>> 1. How did we get here?
>> 2. Why are we here?
>>
>> 1) evolution
>> 2) because we are alive
>> 3) worm food, we rot.
>> Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
> is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
> least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>
No - YOU are making a conclusion that is NOT in the answer you got from
Fred - and that is basically DISHONEST
HE did not say our existense is happenstance - he said WE DO NOT know
the answers to all the questions.
That you have to make up a fairy tale about them with supernatural
beings and long winded nonsense - does not actually provide an answer -
since YOU have failed to support YOUR statements with ANY proof. And
UNtil you can PROVE your statements - YOu have not actually answered
your questions
And until YOU can provide proof of your nonsense - your story is just
that == a FAIRY tale.
THe major christian denominations representing over 75% of all
christians in the world have already accepted EVOLUTION as the origin of
life on earth (obviously you are also a heretic too)
The current pope said this
There is general agreement that the first organism dwelt on this planet
about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all
living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually
certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. "
Thommadura
Number Two is correct
PROVIDE real PROOF of number one
Thommadura
Yes - right now - But older posts are from my father - who is in the
hospital right now.
asks God to prove Himself when although it seems so
> impossible to him I can see that all he has to be open to the Holy
> Spirit.
What Holy SPirit =- PROVE it
"There are none so blind as they who will not see".
YOu have not provided any proof to see
It is sad that YOU make claims - but never back them up with PROOF
Claire
> 2. Why are we here?
>
> 1) evolution
Oh no, not this again. OK what happened before we evolved? The Big
Bang. What caused the Big Bang? Something else.
So you’re saying “its no good! Its rocks all the way down!”
> 2) because we are alive
Why? What is life about? Why do you get up in the morning?
What do you want for the future? What do you value in life as
important?
> 3) worm food, we rot.
A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
are on Prozac!
> Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose and
direction and I’m sorry but believing you’re a cosmic accident soon to
be worm food isn’t one of them. So you must have something else? Or
are you running like a hamster on a wheal?
> >there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> > will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> > Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> > NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> > medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> > already has two jet planes too)
>
> I can’t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
> ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
> Thats called good acting.
“all the world’s a stage” lol
Well, I don’t doubt that a degree of showmanship must be employed to
convey the message and I am not so naive as to form an opinion of
somebody’s actions based on their words. However the fact remains that
many are very convincing in their sermons and do win people to
Christ.
> Well there was a person called Jesus – that is a fact.
> Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> faith.
>
> It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been proven
> to be factually alive.
This is wrong. There are records external to the Bible which were
written within living memory of Jesus which refer to Christians. Use
your brain on that – cause and effect - if there were Christians
following a Rabbi, who were they following if not Jesus as they
themselves claimed? We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
themselves and those scriptures that did not make it into the Bible.
> > > > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > > > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > > > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> > > Why should it happen?
>
> > Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> > receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> > asked in faith by lots of people.
>
> I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
> meant.
>
> Then "god" should not have promised it.
Or perhaps we should not put him to the test? I don’t want to sound
callus as it is a difficult issue that I don’t have any ready answers
to. I only know that we cannot blame God
>
>
> > AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
> > from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything
Doctors don’t grow peoples’ legs back either. Does that mean you don’t
believe in medicine?
>
> > > > IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> > > > why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> > > > they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>
> > > Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst – that is what they tell us!
>
> > YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
>
> That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
>
> > And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
>
> Excuse me???
>
> Yes the U.S. led the way and pushed hard for the creation of the nation.
But in point of fact the British “allowed” it through the Belfour
Declaration.
>
> > nation - they
> > completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
>
> Not really. It was run by the British!
>
> Well, not exactly.After the war Britain was bankrupt and world power was pretty
> much divided between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.
Ha! Talk about over-simplifying things!! What,
you think the British Empire just disappeared over night after VJ Day
do you???
> > I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
>
> But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
> whatever really.
>
> Promised by whom?
;-)
>
> It is called faith. (I doubt the Church of the FSM, if such a thing
> exists, really believe in the FSM)
>
> Faith is lazy,
Faith takes bravery and confidence and not believing in anything is
defeatist and empty.
> you take the word of someone with out looking into it.
Who said? Actually it took a lot of arguing before I took it. Even
then it was not my or their doing.
Claire
> "pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> news:qciuf51e65je9e2kc...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> > alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>
> >>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>
> >>1. How did we get here?
> >>2. Why are we here?
> >>3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket - sorry, die?
>
> >>1) evolution
> >>2) because we are alive
> >>3) worm food, we rot.
> >>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> > So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
> > is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
> > least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>
> > Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
> > animated mud.
> > -
>
> Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements.
Lives are worthless but skin makes good lampshades?
Thommadura
>> 1. How did we get here?
>> 2. Why are we here?
>>
>> 1) evolution
>
> Oh no, not this again.
YOUR snipping removed the fact that these questions were posted by a
theist -
OK what happened before we evolved? The Big
> Bang. What caused the Big Bang? Something else.
> So you�re saying �its no good! Its rocks all the way down!�
>
>> 2) because we are alive
>
> Why? What is life about? Why do you get up in the morning?
> What do you want for the future? What do you value in life as
> important?
>
>
>> 3) worm food, we rot.
>
> A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
> are on Prozac!
>
>
>> Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose
FAIRY tales do not give LIFE meaning or purpose - because they do not
actually provide any answers.
The fact is - claire - you have a belief - not truth
You make claims - but provide NO proof of what you say
So far - man has created (including YOUR THREE) - over 28 million gods
(according to Wiki Philosophy) - hundreds of thousands of religions -
and millions of different sects of those religions. THere are over
39,000 different ORGANIZED sects of christianity alone - and the only
thing they agree upon is the TITLE (christ is a title - not a name)of
one of their gods.
That does not include people like the people in this group - who then
decide WHAT part of their religion they will believe - and what part
they don't. Pastor Frank dismisses that old testament(he says it is
archaic - but the ENTIRE bible was compiled after the supposed time of
the christ) - except when it fancies him. Most people dismiss creation
stories of ALL religions as MYTH and LEGEND. CHristians love to pick and
choose bible quotations - and ignore the quotations from that very same
bible that contradicts what they say. THer are literalluy MILLIONS of
different forms of christianity
Christians themselves have determined that every christian sect is false.
Pope Pius IX in an encyclical(which is the pope speaking FOR god and
infallible) in 1854 said this:
"It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the
apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only
ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the
flood."
You may disagree on that - but on what basis should I believe YOU over
the leader of most of the christans ? YOU certainly do not have his
background of study in religion.
And there are Protestants - heretics to the catholic church - who claim
the catholic church is WRONG.
Scripture clearly says that
1 - THe christ was NOT a god
2 - THe christ was not the son of a god
3 - The christ did not die on a cross
4 - THe christian bible has been compromised and can no longer be
considered truth.
That is the dogma of the largest individual religion on earth - Sunni
Islam - and to well over a Billion people.
All theists claim their religion is the only TRUE one.
All theists claim their gods to be the only true ones.
All theists claim that other religions are false.
YET - when asked to provide PROOF of their claims - all they do is QUOTE
their beliefs and their scriptures - which are simply the writing of
their beliefs.
With millions of options - thousand of christian options - an
Intelligent and LOGICAL person would look at the claims of each religion.
IF the bible is supposed to be the inerrant dictation of the WORD of god
- transcribed but not written by humans - then it would be as PERFECT as
its supposed perfect god. LOOK at the actions of that god in the old
testament - look at the barbarism - the horrific laws - the
discrimination (especially against women) - and then YOU tell me your
god is "love". The bible makes it clear that your god is NO such thing.
Based on the things he "ordained" in the old testament - he is no better
than HITLER was. Why would ANYONE worship such a monster?
BUT then - you will have an excuse. I have a question -
IF you neighbor came to you and told you that to PROVE his love for you
he would allow another uninvolved third part KILL his son - would you
consider that LOGICAL and GOOD. IT happens to be nonsense - as is the
story of the christ.
IT may give you comfort to think that there is a fairy godmother looking
over you - at least she is all good! However - it really is a fake story.
FOr all the good Frank Church did in his answer to Virginia about Santa
Claus - he actually LIED - there is NO real person called Santa Claus -
it is ALSO a fairy tale.
IF a god was ALL the things you claim (And that cannot actually be in
reality to begin with) - the one thing it would be is PROVABLE to all.
Why is it - your god never appears to verify the claims of any church?
Why is it there is NO ABSOLUTE proof of ANY GOD of ANY RELIGION.
Because it is ALL belief - and it is SAD for you that you claim it is
true - when you KNOW it is not proven to be that.
Claire
> >> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>
>
> Sorry - but they are called CHURCHES
Some churches and if they are that rich they are not acting in
accordance with scripture. Even so most of the world’s worth is not
owned by churches.
> >>>> Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
> >>>> religions - gods CANNOT exist.
> >>> In English??
> >> Or any other language
>
> > Can’t translate something to make sense in one language that does not
> > make any sense in anther!
>
> Since I said it makes no sense in any other language - I agree
>
Well I didn’t understand in English as it was a sentence that should
have been taken out and shot for crimes against grammar!
> > Yes and that money SHOULD be used to build the church and do good
> > works.
>
> We don't need any more churches - there are LOTS of them empty and
> abandoned right now.
Abandoned churches do get re-opened now and again (a friend of mine
goes to a tiny 16th Century Anglican church which was closed for
several years before residents got together to get in re-opened, as
well as getting electricity added!). Also, whilst new churches are
being built old ones are converted into houses or for other uses.
There is a beautiful old Anglican church not far from here which has
been turned into an Indian restaurant! (I love a curry but I could not
bring myself to eat there). When I went to Holland there was one which
had been turned into a supermarket with all the pillers and tiles
still there (I imagine Christ over-turning the deep-freeze on His
return!) I find that very sad as a Christian but as you say new
churches are being planted from very successful parent plants. :-)
>
> I can agree that doing good works it worthwhile - we do not need AARON
> Copeland - or any other CHURCH as a middle man.
Err, yeah that’s kind of what the reformation was about!
> >> there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> >> will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> >> Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> >> NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> >> medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> >> already has two jet planes too)
>
> > I can’t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
> > ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> > teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
> Really - how do they live - at the same level as their POOR contributors
> as well.
>
> THe year BEFORE he died - Jerry Fallwell"s church distributed finanacial
> documents that said they paid his chauffeur a $250,000 dollar salary -
> and he spent $1 million on vehicles alone.
That’s disgusting! Here churches have to have open accounting
practices. You should want to know where your money is going.
> >>>> FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> >>>> wars and to disease to be re-grown.
> >>>> We have NO example of that ever happening =-
> >>> Why should it happen?
> >> Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> >> receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> >> asked in faith by lots of people.
>
> > I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
> > meant.
>
> Then why say it - and say it OFTEN - then? (It appears at least 6 times
> in the bible)
>
> ANd then =- if a god doesn't say what it means - why beleive anything it
> says then
Maybe we are not always good at discerning what he meant.
> >> AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
> >> from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>
> >>>> IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> >>>> why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> >>>> they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
> >>> Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst – that is what they tell us!
> >> YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
>
> > That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
>
> Try to Knock it down and see
OK will do, peace here we come!!
>
>
> >> And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
>
> > Excuse me???
>
> IF the USA had not recognized Israel and supported it financially for
> years - it would have been gone Long ago.
>
The fact remains that the USA did not run Palestine and so could not
“allow” anything.
> >> nation - they
> >> completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
>
> > Not really. It was run by the British!
>
> >> I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
>
> > But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
> > whatever really.
>
> A messiah was also promised to the jews -
>
> Among the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during
> his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:
>
> * Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple,
> in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
>
> * Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them
> home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
>
> * Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be
> ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and
> serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and
> Zephaniah 3:9)
>
At the second coming and the “new Jerusalem”. When “every knee will
bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”
>
> >> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
> >> check.
> >> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>
> >>>> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
> >>> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
> >>> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as “children of the book”
> >>> However they think we are the ones in the wrong.
> >> And NONE of you can prove you are right.
>
> > Its called faith.
>
> But faith is NOT called truth
Faith is a belief about a truth which cannot be proven empirically.
>
> Truth remains something that does not require belief - since it is true
> for ALL - regardless of your faith
Truth is universal. Some people are wrong and some people are right.
All the various faiths believe they are right. We cannot all be right.
> And that is where the LIE comes in
>
> Your belief is just that =- belief.
It is what we believe to be truth.
>
> IT IS NOT proven truth - no matter what YOU claim
>
> And to claim it is truth is a LIE. WHy bother telling people to believe
> in YOUR religion = when YOU do not follow its own rules yourself.
I try to. We should always try to but never expect ever to be sinless.
That is what the gift of grace is for.
>
> Why can't theists just admit is it belief and stop lying about it?
You seem to struggle with the idea in belief in a universal truth?
Fred Thomas
On 15 Nov, 00:35, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> "pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> news:qciuf51e65je9e2kc...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
> > 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> > alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>
> >>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>
> >>1. How did we get here?
> >>2. Why are we here?
> >>3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket - sorry, die?
>
> >>1) evolution
> >>2) because we are alive
> >>3) worm food, we rot.
> >>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> > So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
> > is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
> > least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>
> > Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
> > animated mud.
> > -
>
> Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements.
Lives are worthless but skin makes good lampshades?
What are you a Nazis?
Claire
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:789c8009-5486-44ec...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 Nov, 00:35, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:qciuf51e65je9e2kc...@4ax.com...
>
> > > Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
> > > 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
> > > alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>
> > >>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>
> > >>1. How did we get here?
> > >>2. Why are we here?
> > >>3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket - sorry, die?
>
> > >>1) evolution
> > >>2) because we are alive
> > >>3) worm food, we rot.
> > >>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> > > So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
> > > is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
> > > least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>
> > > Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
> > > animated mud.
> > > -
>
> > Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements.
>
> Lives are worthless but skin makes good lampshades?
>
> What are you a Nazis?
No. You?
Thommadura
>>>> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
>>>> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>> Sorry - but they are called CHURCHES
>
> Some churches and if they are that rich they are not acting in
> owned by churches.
Actually - MOST of the worlds worth is NOT owned by RICH people either.
>
>>>>>> Obviously - based on the definition of their gods as given by the
>>>>>> religions - gods CANNOT exist.
>>>>> In English??
>>>> Or any other language
>>> Can�t translate something to make sense in one language that does not
>>> make any sense in anther!
>> Since I said it makes no sense in any other language - I agree
>>
>
> Well I didn�t understand in English as it was a sentence that should
> have been taken out and shot for crimes against grammar!
>
>>> Yes and that money SHOULD be used to build the church and do good
>>> works.
>> We don't need any more churches - there are LOTS of them empty and
>> abandoned right now.
>
> Abandoned churches do get re-opened now and again (a friend of mine
> goes to a tiny 16th Century Anglican church which was closed for
> several years before residents got together to get in re-opened, as
> well as getting electricity added!). Also, whilst new churches are
> being built old ones are converted into houses or for other uses.
> There is a beautiful old Anglican church not far from here which has
> been turned into an Indian restaurant! (I love a curry but I could not
> bring myself to eat there). When I went to Holland there was one which
> had been turned into a supermarket with all the pillers and tiles
> still there (I imagine Christ over-turning the deep-freeze on His
> return!) I find that very sad as a Christian but as you say new
> churches are being planted from very successful parent plants. :-)
>
>
>> I can agree that doing good works it worthwhile - we do not need AARON
>> Copeland - or any other CHURCH as a middle man.
>
> Err, yeah that�s kind of what the reformation was about!
The heretic revolt was about WHO has control - and who gets to decide.
I have yet to see a god appear - and endorse it! (It is certainly not
mentioned anywhere else)
>
>>>> there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
>>>> will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
>>>> Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
>>>> NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
>>>> medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
>>>> already has two jet planes too)
>>> I can�t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
>>> ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
>>> teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>> Really - how do they live - at the same level as their POOR contributors
>> as well.
>>
>> THe year BEFORE he died - Jerry Fallwell"s church distributed finanacial
>> documents that said they paid his chauffeur a $250,000 dollar salary -
>> and he spent $1 million on vehicles alone.
>
> That�s disgusting! Here churches have to have open accounting
> practices. You should want to know where your money is going.
>
>>>>>> FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
>>>>>> wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>>>>>> We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>>>>> Why should it happen?
>>>> Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
>>>> receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
>>>> asked in faith by lots of people.
>>> I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
>>> meant.
>> Then why say it - and say it OFTEN - then? (It appears at least 6 times
>> in the bible)
>>
>> ANd then =- if a god doesn't say what it means - why beleive anything it
>> says then
>
> Maybe we are not always good at discerning what he meant.
More likely - humans wrote it - and claim it was from a god.
>
>>>> AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
>>>> from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything)
>>>>>> IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
>>>>>> why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
>>>>>> they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>>>>> Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst � that is what they tell us!
>>>> YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
>>> That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
>> Try to Knock it down and see
>
> OK will do, peace here we come!!
>
>>
>>>> And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
>>> Excuse me???
>> IF the USA had not recognized Israel and supported it financially for
>> years - it would have been gone Long ago.
>>
>
> The fact remains that the USA did not run Palestine and so could not
> �allow� anything.
>
>>>> nation - they
>>>> completely controlled the so called HOLY LANDS too.
>>> Not really. It was run by the British!
>>>> I note - it is still not controlled by christians.
>>> But it was promised to the Jews and they are back there now so
>>> whatever really.
>> A messiah was also promised to the jews -
>>
>> Among the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during
>> his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:
>>
>> * Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple,
>> in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
>>
>> * Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them
>> home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
>>
>> * Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be
>> ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and
>> serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and
>> Zephaniah 3:9)
>>
>
> At the second coming and the �new Jerusalem�. When �every knee will
> bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord�
The second coming has already happened HUNDREDS Of times
Jim Jones and Sun Myung MOON are among those who are the second coming
of the christ
>
>>>> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
>>>> check.
>>>> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>>>>>> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>>>>> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
>>>>> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as �children of the book�
Sorry - but that is another error on your part
Muslims and Jews do not accept the TRINITY - and do no accept the christ
to be a god.
In fact - the Koran specifically rejects the divinity of the christ - as
well as the authority of the bible
>
> Faith is a belief about a truth which cannot be proven empirically.
Or any way else.
>
>> Truth remains something that does not require belief - since it is true
>> for ALL - regardless of your faith
>
> Truth is universal. Some people are wrong and some people are right.
> All the various faiths believe they are right. We cannot all be right.
>
>> And that is where the LIE comes in
>>
>> Your belief is just that =- belief.
>
> It is what we believe to be truth.
But the word BELIEF means that is it not proven truth - so you are
simply LYING about it.
IT is TRUE that there is a Kansas - but that does not make the Wizard of
OZ a real thing either.
>
>> IT IS NOT proven truth - no matter what YOU claim
>>
>> And to claim it is truth is a LIE. WHy bother telling people to believe
>> in YOUR religion = when YOU do not follow its own rules yourself.
>
> I try to. We should always try to but never expect ever to be sinless.
> That is what the gift of grace is for.
Why quote a "belief" (sin - grace) - to make a point - when they are
beliefs themselves?
>
>> Why can't theists just admit is it belief and stop lying about it?
>
> You seem to struggle with the idea in belief in a universal truth?
Not a struggle at all.
AS an Agnostic - I accept TRUTH.
A Huxley agnostic (both I and my Father are that) - accepts only what is
PROVEN to be true about gods and religions.
That is the ONLY provable position.
A Theist cannot prove a god exists.
An Atheist cannot prove gods do not exist - except as defined by the
theists. (IE - if their definition cannot be true - the god cannot be
true - which would apply to your gods)
However - an Agnostic is the only one who will have TRUTH on his side -
which I do.
We KNOW nothing proven about god - and neither do YOU
Fred Thomas
> 1. How did we get here?
> 2. Why are we here?
>
> 1) evolution
Oh no, not this again. OK what happened before we evolved?
What ever we evolved from evolved.
(you)
The Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang?
(me)
Don't know. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain
anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.
(you)
Something else. So you�re saying �its no good! Its rocks all the way down!�
(me)
Really? where did I say that?
> 2) because we are alive
(you)
Why?
(me)
Why what?
(you)
What is life about?
(me)
Living it.
(you)
Why do you get up in the morning?
(me)
Because I stopped sleeping.
(you)
What do you want for the future?
(me)
That's a personal question, why do you ask?
(you)
What do you value in life as important?
(me)
The whole life thing.
> 3) worm food, we rot.
(you)
A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
are on Prozac!
(me)
I never said anything about an accident. People are on Prozac for a lot of
reasons. Do you have a medical background and training to make such a statement?
> Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
(you)
But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose
(me)
Still does not provide any answers though, that purpose weither real or imagined
just provides drive and a warm fuzzy feeling.
(you)
and direction
(me)
I do not need a myth to give me a "direction".
(you)
and I�m sorry but believing you�re a cosmic accident soon to
be worm food isn�t one of them.
(me)
again I'll ask, where did I say anything about an accident? However, you can not
get by the fact that when you die, your survivors have few options as what to do
with your body. Burn it or burry it. That is a fact of the life cycle.
(you)
So you must have something else?
(me)
something else what?
(You)
Or are you running like a hamster on a wheal?
(me)
There are times I use a treadmill, it's good to keep up the cardiovascular
system when the weather is bad.
> >there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> > will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> > Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> > NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> > medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> > already has two jet planes too)
>
> I can�t comment on American Televangalists who have jet planes. The
> ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
> Thats called good acting.
(you)
�all the world�s a stage� lol
Well, I don�t doubt that a degree of showmanship must be employed to
convey the message and I am not so naive as to form an opinion of
somebody�s actions based on their words. However the fact remains that
many are very convincing in their sermons and do win people to
Christ.
(me)
There is a old saying..........there's a sucker born every
minute.............well, there's a lot of them and you just confirmed it.
> Well there was a person called Jesus � that is a fact.
> Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> faith.
>
> It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been
> proven
> to be factually alive.
(you)
This is wrong. There are records external to the Bible which were
written within living memory of Jesus which refer to Christians.
(me)
OK, I'll bite, what external records? Name them.
(you)
Use your brain on that � cause and effect - if there were Christians
following a Rabbi, who were they following if not Jesus as they
themselves claimed?
(me)
Use your brain, was RA real? Did the people of Egypt follow the "teachings" of
RA?
(you)
We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
themselves
(me)
which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
before the time of the alleged Jesus.
About 700 B.C.E: The legendary Homer writes the Iliad and Odyssey and
mentions that after death, mortals go to Hades and exist as ghosts/spirits.
Homer�s Hades was similar to the underworld of the Canaanites; it was an active
place. There were no punishments or rewards in Hades. Homer, in the Iliad,
mentions Asclepius as a skillful physician, not a miracle worker. Centuries
later, the Greeks worship Asclepius as a god, who performs miracles.Homer
mentions the semi-god Dionysus, born of Zeus and the mortal woman Semele. In
later times, Dionysus was worshipped as a
god. (The myth of Dionysus and other similar myths inspired the birth accounts
of Matthew and Luke.)
409-358 B.C.E: Reign of Artaxerxes II, worshipper of god Ahura Mazda. He
venerates the gods Mithras and Anahita. Mithra is the mediator between the god
Ahura
Mazda and mankind. (Likewise, Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind.)
371-286B.C.E: Lifetime of Aristotle�s disciple, Theophrastus of Eresus. He
proposed ... that God is spirit. (this idea became widespread in the 1st century
CE before
the Gospel of John was written. �God is a Spirit.� (John 4:24 KJV)
3rd century B.C.E: The Ptolemies, promote the syncretism of Greek and
Egyptian religions. The Stoics appear. Eusebius wrote that the Stoics �� argued
the Logos, that is Word and Reason, would seem to be the designer of the
universe.� This doctrine appeared centuries later in the Gospel of John.
70-19B.C.E: Lifetime of the Roman poet/author Virgil, who wrote the Aeneid. He
mentions the Purgatory (a place for temporary punishments and cleansing after
death). He wrote a poem about and �infant boy,� the son of god Jove. His poem
probably inspired some details of the birth accounts of Matthew and Luke.
65-8B.C.E: Lifetime of Horace, the renowned Latin lyric poet, who wrote,
�Which of the gods now will the people summon {from Heaven}... ?� His poem
refers to
a god who comes on earth and takes the shape of a young Roman, a prince, stays
among the Romans, and later returns to Heaven. The New Testament writers wrote
similar details about Jesus.
64/59 BCE to 17 CE: The Roman historian Livy wrote that ceremonial washing
(baptism) preceded initiation into the mysteries of Dionysus. He wrote that King
Romulus disappeared in a cloud and left this world, and the Romans declared him
a god, the son of god. (About 100 years later, similar claims were made about
Jesus.
No one called Jesus �a god� before his death. -Romulus served as prototype for
Jesus� story.)
(you)
and those scriptures that did not make it into the Bible.
(me)
So?
> > > > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > > > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > > > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> > > Why should it happen?
>
> > Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> > receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> > asked in faith by lots of people.
>
> I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
> meant.
>
> Then "god" should not have promised it.
(you)
Or perhaps we should not put him to the test?
(me)
Apparently it's OK to test god.........The fact is the bible has a number of
passages that imply god is to be tested, with the reasoning of it will prove
this god.
And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal
me...? And Isaiah said ... shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back
ten degrees? And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go
down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. And
Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees
backward. -- 2 Kings 20:8-11
(you)
I don�t want to sound
callus as it is a difficult issue that I don�t have any ready answers
to.
(me)
Hmmmmmmmm, and you take issue with me when I say that "Fact is there are some
things in life you will just have no answers for." That's rather hypocritical.
(you)
I only know that we cannot blame God
(me)
You think, you do not know. You have yet to provide any evidence god is not a
myth yet.
>
>
> > AND that is does not happen calls into question whether the statement
> > from the christ is true (Hint MYTHS cannot actually do anything
Doctors don�t grow peoples� legs back either. Does that mean you don�t
believe in medicine?
>
> > > > IF your god says - in essence - ask in faith and you shall receive -
> > > > why did christianily LOOSE the Crusades? With all the faithful prayers -
> > > > they should have rolled over the Muslims there.
>
> > > Oh? I thought the Muslims came off worst � that is what they tell us!
>
> > YET - their TEMPLE is on the MOUNT - isn't it?
>
> That does not seem to be much comfort to many of them at the moment!
>
> > And until the USA allowed the creation of ISRAEL
>
> Excuse me???
>
> Yes the U.S. led the way and pushed hard for the creation of the nation.
But in point of fact the British �allowed� it through the Belfour
Fred Thomas
(you)
No. You?
(me)
I made no reference to skin being used as lamp shade material, you did.
Claire
Well it is what your post reminded me of with talk of us being nothing
more than our component parts. The Nazis believed that even if some
people’s lives had no value they could be put to good us including
their component parts. So we are agreed the Nazis were bad? Good. I
have a belief in the sanctity of human life which therefore has innate
value. On what basis do you believe that the Nazis were bad? Legal and
cultural relativism (we now have the notion of crimes against
humanity, multi-ethnic societies etc)? I do not for one minute doubt
you find what the Nazis did sickening and wrong btw. I am simply
asking where do you think your sense of right and wrong come from?
Claire
> Claire wrote:
> >>>> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
> >>>> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
> >> Sorry - but they are called CHURCHES
>
> > Some churches and if they are that rich they are not acting in
> > owned by churches.
>
> Actually - MOST of the worlds worth is NOT owned by RICH people either.
>
Depends what you mean by rich I guess. By most of the world’s
standards most of us in the West are rich. Our 20% of the world owns
80% of the wealth.
>
> >> I can agree that doing good works it worthwhile - we do not need AARON
> >> Copeland - or any other CHURCH as a middle man.
>
> > Err, yeah that’s kind of what the reformation was about!
>
> The heretic revolt was about WHO has control - and who gets to decide.
<cough>
>
> I have yet to see a god appear
>
> >> ANd then =- if a god doesn't say what it means - why beleive anything it
> >> says then
>
> > Maybe we are not always good at discerning what he meant.
>
> More likely - humans wrote it - and claim it was from a god.
<sigh>
> >> * Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them
> >> home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
>
> >> * Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be
> >> ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and
> >> serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and
> >> Zephaniah 3:9)
>
> > At the second coming and the “new Jerusalem”. When “every knee will
> > bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord”
>
> The second coming has already happened HUNDREDS Of times
> Jim Jones and Sun Myung MOON are among those who are the second coming
> of the christ
>
Predicted in the Bible
Matthew 24:5
"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will
mislead many.”
>
> >>>> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
> >>>> check.
> >>>> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
> >>>>>> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
> >>>>> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
> >>>>> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as “children of the book”
>
> Sorry - but that is another error on your part
>
> Muslims and Jews do not accept the TRINITY
I said that already
> In fact - the Koran specifically rejects the divinity of the christ - as
> well as the authority of the bible
I know, we think pretty much the same about each other’s books. Fact
is though we do have some common prophets which was my point.
> > Faith is a belief about a truth which cannot be proven empirically.
>
> Or any way else.
>
It can be proved spiritually which of course you are closed to.
> >> Truth remains something that does not require belief - since it is true
> >> for ALL - regardless of your faith
>
> > Truth is universal. Some people are wrong and some people are right.
> > All the various faiths believe they are right. We cannot all be right.
>
> >> And that is where the LIE comes in
>
> >> Your belief is just that =- belief.
>
> > It is what we believe to be truth.
>
> But the word BELIEF means that is it not proven truth - so you are
> simply LYING about it.
Nope we are *honestly* expressing our belief. Take it or leave it.
>
> IT is TRUE that there is a Kansas - but that does not make the Wizard of
> OZ a real thing either.
Oh no, this is like the Julius Caesar analogy.
> >> IT IS NOT proven truth - no matter what YOU claim
>
> >> And to claim it is truth is a LIE. WHy bother telling people to believe
> >> in YOUR religion = when YOU do not follow its own rules yourself.
>
> > I try to. We should always try to but never expect ever to be sinless.
> > That is what the gift of grace is for.
>
> Why quote a "belief" (sin - grace) - to make a point - when they are
> beliefs themselves?
>
I’m trying to teach you things you don’t seem to understand about
Christian teaching.
> >> Why can't theists just admit is it belief and stop lying about it?
>
> > You seem to struggle with the idea in belief in a universal truth?
>
> Not a struggle at all.
>
> AS an Agnostic - I accept TRUTH.
> A Huxley agnostic (both I and my Father are that) - accepts only what is
> PROVEN to be true about gods and religions.
> That is the ONLY provable position.
>
> A Theist cannot prove a god exists.
> An Atheist cannot prove gods do not exist - except as defined by the
> theists. (IE - if their definition cannot be true - the god cannot be
> true - which would apply to your gods)
>
> However - an Agnostic is the only one who will have TRUTH on his side -
> which I do.
No you don’t. You have a belief in your own lack of belief. It is
obviously a strong faith you have since you cannot be questioned!!
>
> We KNOW nothing proven about god - and neither do YOU
And yet I know God and you do not.
ThomM
>
> Well it is what your post reminded me of with talk of us being nothing
> more than our component parts. The Nazis believed that even if some
> people’s lives had no value they could be put to good us including
> their component parts. So we are agreed the Nazis were bad? Good. I
> have a belief in the sanctity of human life which therefore has innate
> value.
THere is no argument that a human life is of great worth -
However - morals and ethics like that have been a part of humanity for
many thousands of years - were a part of the teachings of Conficius
and Buddha - 4-500 years before the christ - and of Plato- Socrates -
and others as well.
>On what basis do you believe that the Nazis were bad?
I certainly cannot use religion for that one. Hitler claimed that the
christ approved his actions - and were on his side - and his catholic
leader never excommunicated HIM.
I also cannot look to the christian religions of the south - who used
the BIBLE to support slavery - and teach against the North.
Of course -= I cannot use the "christ" myth - since he ALSO made rules
for slavery - according to the bible itself. In fact - there are
directions on the proper way to sell your DAUGHTER into slavery in the
bible.
Before that time - human sacrifice was common in religious ceremony -
and christians actually still use a similar theme in their rite - of
body and blood.
Of course - I can look at the bible for LOTS of examples where human
worth was not apparently considered
How about the genocide of several populations - when your god ordered
them to KILL all the women and children too - except the virigin young
women who the conquerors could keep for themselves.
And then of course - your god also killed all the innocent children in
a FLOOD too.
(thankfully - that IS a proven MYTH)
Then there is the Inquisition - and the witch hunts.
> Legal and
> cultural relativism (we now have the notion of crimes against
> humanity, multi-ethnic societies etc)? I do not for one minute doubt
> you find what the Nazis did sickening and wrong btw.
I am simply
> asking where do you think your sense of right and wrong come from?
Since religion is DO AS I SAY - NOT AS I DO - it certainly was NOT
from them.
YOu probably were never abused by a NUN in school either.
Actually we ALL get out ethics from our parents and the people around
us.
However - that is true of everyone - around the globe.
WE KNOW that in countries with the LOWEST rates of crime -(Japan -
Sweden - the Netherlands) - they also have the lowest rates of theism
From studies done by CHRISTIAN research groups - like the BARNA Group
- we have learned that the more fundamental a person's christian
beleif - the more likely they are to Murder - commit suicide- rape -
divorce - or have an abortion. The highest rates of murder exist in
the fundamental BIBLE BELT states of Louisianna and Texas. Texas also
has the highest rate of capital punishment - apparently that doesn't
work.
Interestingly - the lowest rates of divorce are in the Liberal
Northeast States of NewYork and Massachusets too. Us prison statistics
show that non-believers are the least likely to be in prison - about
1/10 of their average in the general population - while christians
are generally represented in the same percentages as they exist in the
general population.
Theists like to say that ethics and morals are religous based - but in
fact - the statistics do not POINT to that.
Fred Thomas
Well it is what your post reminded me of with talk of us being nothing
more than our component parts. The Nazis believed that even if some
their component parts. So we are agreed the Nazis were bad? Good. I
have a belief in the sanctity of human life which therefore has innate
value. On what basis do you believe that the Nazis were bad? Legal and
cultural relativism (we now have the notion of crimes against
humanity, multi-ethnic societies etc)? I do not for one minute doubt
you find what the Nazis did sickening and wrong btw. I am simply
asking where do you think your sense of right and wrong come from?
(me)
The Nazis were no worse than the KKK, or what the RCC did in the inquisitions or
crusades; is no worse than what today's religious nuts do such as bombing
buildings that they feel represent "evil" values. On the other hand maybe the
Nazis were a little better, any thinking and aware person could see what and
where the Nazis leaders were doing and going to do, they made no pretence. The
RCC as well as other religious organizations on the other hand had and has
pretence under the guise of "inspiration" or "leadership" from a god and are
justified and doing the evil they do to "save" the "sinners" of the world.
GreatSage
<tomm...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > pyotr filipivich:
> > Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
> > 1) There is a God.
> > 2) It's not you.
>
> Number Two is correct
>
> PROVIDE real PROOF of number one
PROVIDE real PROOF??
You are wasting your time demanding proof. No one can give you this
proof. If you were born blind, no one could prove to you the world is
in color. You discover "God" by your own effort. It cannot be given to
you. It is a difficult path for people today. Very few are sucessful.
Thommadura
> On 15 Nov, 14:56, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Claire wrote:
>>>>>> Those who have vast fortunes at other people's expenses are called
>>>>>> MINISTERS and PRIESTS.
>>>> Sorry - but they are called CHURCHES
>>> Some churches and if they are that rich they are not acting in
>>> owned by churches.
>> Actually - MOST of the worlds worth is NOT owned by RICH people either.
>>
>
> standards most of us in the West are rich. Our 20% of the world owns
> 80% of the wealth.
But the majority of the people in the west are not rich either - they do
not have VAST FORTUNES at the expense of others. There may be a few who
do - but in reality - the overwhelming majority of the people in the
west do not have VAST FORTUNES _ do you?
>
>>>> I can agree that doing good works it worthwhile - we do not need AARON
>>>> Copeland - or any other CHURCH as a middle man.
>>> Err, yeah that�s kind of what the reformation was about!
>> The heretic revolt was about WHO has control - and who gets to decide.
>
> <cough>
>
>> I have yet to see a god appear
>
>>>> ANd then =- if a god doesn't say what it means - why beleive anything it
>>>> says then
>>> Maybe we are not always good at discerning what he meant.
>> More likely - humans wrote it - and claim it was from a god.
>
> <sigh>
Again - if you are dealing with MAYBEs - then there are LOTS of them -
not just YOURS.
>
>>>> * Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them
>>>> home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
>>>> * Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be
>>>> ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and
>>>> serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and
>>>> Zephaniah 3:9)
>>> At the second coming and the �new Jerusalem�. When �every knee will
>>> bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord�
>> The second coming has already happened HUNDREDS Of times
>> Jim Jones and Sun Myung MOON are among those who are the second coming
>> of the christ
>>
>
> Predicted in the Bible
> Matthew 24:5
>
> "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will
> mislead many.�
REligion has indeed done that one -
>
>>>>>> WHen you collect the money - post it here - with a copy of the
>>>>>> check.
>>>>>> IF you cannot - oh dear - now that is a surprise!!!!!
>>>>>>>> Or maybe the Islamic GOD is just more powerful that yours is! (ROFL)
>>>>>>> Most Muslims believe Christians worship the same God as the Koran
>>>>>>> describes Christian, Jews and Muslims as �children of the book�
>> Sorry - but that is another error on your part
>>
>> Muslims and Jews do not accept the TRINITY
>
> I said that already
YOU said that most muslims believe christians worship the same god as
the Koran - that is not true - they themselves do not accept that one.
>
>> In fact - the Koran specifically rejects the divinity of the christ - as
>> well as the authority of the bible
>
> I know, we think pretty much the same about each other�s books. Fact
> is though we do have some common prophets which was my point.
Predictions have been coming from "Saviors" for thousands of years.
To date - the sky still hasn't fallen
>
>>> Faith is a belief about a truth which cannot be proven empirically.
>> Or any way else.
>>
>
> It can be proved spiritually which of course you are closed to.
The word "spiritually" has no proven meaning in reality.
And no - it cannot be PROVEN spiritually either - because it still would
NOT be accepted by people of OTHER faiths.
>
>
>>>> Truth remains something that does not require belief - since it is true
>>>> for ALL - regardless of your faith
>>> Truth is universal. Some people are wrong and some people are right.
>>> All the various faiths believe they are right. We cannot all be right.
>>>> And that is where the LIE comes in
>>>> Your belief is just that =- belief.
>>> It is what we believe to be truth.
>> But the word BELIEF means that is it not proven truth - so you are
>> simply LYING about it.
>
> Nope we are *honestly* expressing our belief. Take it or leave it.
No - you claimed it was the TRUTH
AND nothing you said was actually true.
And I LEAVE it without proof.
>
>> IT is TRUE that there is a Kansas - but that does not make the Wizard of
>> OZ a real thing either.
>
> Oh no, this is like the Julius Caesar analogy.
>>>> IT IS NOT proven truth - no matter what YOU claim
>>>> And to claim it is truth is a LIE. WHy bother telling people to believe
>>>> in YOUR religion = when YOU do not follow its own rules yourself.
>>> I try to. We should always try to but never expect ever to be sinless.
>>> That is what the gift of grace is for.
>> Why quote a "belief" (sin - grace) - to make a point - when they are
>> beliefs themselves?
>>
>
> I�m trying to teach you things you don�t seem to understand about
> Christian teaching.
I am sorry - but unless you can prove it to be TRUE - I went to catholic
schools through COLLEGE - two of my great Uncles were Catholic
Monsignors - I know ALL ABOUT THE SCAM.
Point your nose down on somebodly else unless you can PROVE any of it
>
>
>
>>>> Why can't theists just admit is it belief and stop lying about it?
>>> You seem to struggle with the idea in belief in a universal truth?
>> Not a struggle at all.
>>
>> AS an Agnostic - I accept TRUTH.
>> A Huxley agnostic (both I and my Father are that) - accepts only what is
>> PROVEN to be true about gods and religions.
>> That is the ONLY provable position.
>>
>> A Theist cannot prove a god exists.
>> An Atheist cannot prove gods do not exist - except as defined by the
>> theists. (IE - if their definition cannot be true - the god cannot be
>> true - which would apply to your gods)
>>
>> However - an Agnostic is the only one who will have TRUTH on his side -
>> which I do.
>
> No you don�t. You have a belief in your own lack of belief. It is
> obviously a strong faith you have since you cannot be questioned!!
No - because IF you actually could PROVE your statements - I would have
to accept them - that is the agnostic position (It is NOT a belief)
If something is TRUE to all - it is true to me.
If you cannot prove anything in reality - that is not my problem.
>
>
> And yet I know God and you do not.
Sorry - but YOU believe - but you do not KNOW
>
Claire
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1212864f-0cc6-43b8...@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...> 1. How did we get here?
> > 2. Why are we here?
>
> > 1) evolution
>
> (you)
> Oh no, not this again. OK what happened before we evolved?
> (me)
> What ever we evolved from evolved.
>
> (you)
> The Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang?
> (me)
> Don't know. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain
> anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.
Its called deductive reasoning.
>
> (you)
> Something else. So you’re saying “its no good! Its rocks all the way down!”
> (me)
> Really? where did I say that?
>
> > 2) because we are alive
>
> (you)
> Why?
> (me)
> Why what?
> (you)
> What is life about?
> (me)
> Living it.
What makes you tick?
> (you)
> Why do you get up in the morning?
>
> (me)
> Because I stopped sleeping.
Everybody does that. What particular reason for getting up?
>
> (you)
> What do you want for the future?
>
> (me)
> That's a personal question, why do you ask?
Well you’ve attacked my personal faith and true I have put it on
display. However if you are asking me to give up my all loving God, I
think it is only right you tell me what your belief system is about
and what you have to offer me that could possibly compere with the
Creator of Heaven on Earth???
:-)
> (you)
> What do you value in life as important?
> (me)
> The whole life thing.
Which is?
>
> > 3) worm food, we rot.
>
> (you)
> A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
> are on Prozac!
>
> (me)
> I never said anything about an accident. People are on Prozac for a lot of
> reasons.
Indeed. However the wealthiest part of the world should be the
happiest however we have large numbers of very unhappy people and this
can often develop into Depression when people’s lives spiral out of
control. I am not saying Christians are immune from this but it seems
less likely and there would be people to help and support one
another.
> > Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> (you)
> But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose
> (me)
> Still does not provide any answers though, that purpose weither real or imagined
> just provides drive and a warm fuzzy feeling.
And you want to deny me my drive and “warm fuzzy feeling” do you? You
can have some too if you open your mind and heart! :-)
>
> (you)
> and direction
>
> (me)
> I do not need a myth to give me a "direction".
What gives you direction?
>
> (you)
> and I’m sorry but believing you’re a cosmic accident soon to
> be worm food isn’t one of them.
>
> (me)
> again I'll ask, where did I say anything about an accident?
Look at it. Our planet just happens to have water. Our planet just
happens to have the right atmosphere. Our planet just happens to be
warm enough but not too warm. Our planet just happens to have seasons.
Our planet just happened to have the right gravitational pull, our
planet just happened to develop life. Our planet just happened to
develop inelegant life. Its all a big coincidence!!! The mathematical
precision of the universe is just a coincidence. The miracle of life
in all its beauty is just a coincidence. The great writers, poets
musicians and our ability to appreciate them is coincidence!
However, you can not
> get by the fact that when you die, your survivors have few options as what to do
> with your body. Burn it or burry it. That is a fact of the life cycle.
>
> (you)
> So you must have something else?
> (me)
> something else what?
>
> (You)
> Or are you running like a hamster on a wheal?
>
> (me)
> There are times I use a treadmill, it's good to keep up the cardiovascular
> system when the weather is bad.
>
> > >there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> > > will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> > > Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> > > NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> > > medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> > > already has two jet planes too)
>
> > I can’t comment on American Televangelists who have jet planes. The
> > ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> > teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
> > That’s called good acting.
>
> (you)
> “all the world’s a stage” loll
> Well, I don’t doubt that a degree of showmanship must be employed to
> convey the message and I am not so naive as to form an opinion of
> somebody’s actions based on their words. However the fact remains that
> many are very convincing in their sermons and do win people to
> Christ.
>
> (me)
> There is a old saying..........there's a sucker born every
> minute.............well, there's a lot of them and you just confirmed it.
Not really. Anybody relying on only one source would be ill-informed.
I only really came across them a few years ago when I got Satellite
TV!
>
> > Well there was a person called Jesus – that is a fact.
> > Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> > faith.
>
> > It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been
> > proven
> > to be factually alive.
>
> (you)
> This is wrong. There are records external to the Bible which were
> written within living memory of Jesus which refer to Christians.
>
> (me)
> OK, I'll bite, what external records? Name them.
Our friend Google: http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people
> (you)
> Use your brain on that – cause and effect - if there were Christians
> following a Rabbi, who were they following if not Jesus as they
> themselves claimed?
>
> (me)
> Use your brain, was RA real? Did the people of Egypt follow the "teachings" of
> RA?
>
> (you)
> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> themselves
>
> (me)
> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
> 371-286B.C.E: Lifetime of Aristotle’s disciple, Theophrastus of Eresus. He
> proposed ... that God is spirit. (this idea became widespread in the 1st century
> CE before
> the Gospel of John was written. “God is a Spirit.” (John 4:24 KJV)
>
> 3rd century B.C.E: The Ptolemies, promote the syncretism of Greek and
> Egyptian religions. The Stoics appear. Euseb> ….
> No one called Jesus “a god” before his death. -Romulus served as prototype for
> Jesus’ story.)
Bollix!
But God had a funny relationship with the Jews as his chosen
people! ;-)
> (you)
> I don’t want to sound
> callus as it is a difficult issue that I don’t have any ready answers
> to.
>
> (me)
> Hmmmmmmmm, and you take issue with me when I say that "Fact is there are some
> things in life you will just have no answers for." That's rather hypocritical.
My things are fairly small though. Yours are huge!
ThomM
> On 15 Nov, 15:28, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1212864f-0cc6-43b8...@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...> 1. How did we get here?
> > > 2. Why are we here?
> > > 3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket – sorry, die?
>
> > > 1) evolution
>
> > (you)
> > Oh no, not this again. OK what happened before we evolved?
> > (me)
> > What ever we evolved from evolved.
>
> > (you)
> > The Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang?
> > (me)
> > Don't know. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain
> > anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.
>
> Its called deductive reasoning.
So - I can deduce that since the overwhelming majority of the people
on earth and theists on earth do not believe in YOUR god - that you
are wrong then
>
>
>
>
>
> > (you)
> > Something else. So you’re saying “its no good! Its rocks all the way down!”
> > (me)
> > Really? where did I say that?
>
> > > 2) because we are alive
>
> > (you)
> > Why?
> > (me)
> > Why what?
> > (you)
> > What is life about?
> > (me)
> > Living it.
>
> What makes you tick?
My Family - My kids - My granchildren - My friends
>
> > (you)
> > Why do you get up in the morning?
>
> > (me)
> > Because I stopped sleeping.
>
> Everybody does that. What particular reason for getting up?
Job - wife- kids - grandkids - friends - activities.
In fact - I actually change the time I get up in the morning based on
those things too.
>
>
>
> > (you)
> > What do you want for the future?
Lots of things -
>
> > (me)
> > That's a personal question, why do you ask?
>
> Well you’ve attacked my personal faith and true I have put it on
> display. However if you are asking me to give up my all loving God, I
> think it is only right you tell me what your belief system is about
> and what you have to offer me that could possibly compere with the
> Creator of Heaven on Earth???
Since the UNIVERSE has always existed - and that is PROVEN fact - I am
not asking you to give up your loving god - you never actually had one
to begin with.
> :-)
>
> > (you)
> > What do you value in life as important?
> > (me)
> > The whole life thing.
>
> Which is?
Same answer - job - wife - kids - grandkids - and lots of other
things.
>
>
>
> > > 3) worm food, we rot.
>
> > (you)
> > A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
> > are on Prozac!
Sorry - but life is what we have - if you need to make up fairy tales
of something else beyond it - apparently YOU don;t have much of a
life.
>
> > (me)
> > I never said anything about an accident. People are on Prozac for a lot of
> > reasons.
>
> Indeed. However the wealthiest part of the world should be the
> happiest however we have large numbers of very unhappy people and this
> can often develop into Depression when people’s lives spiral out of
> control. I am not saying Christians are immune from this but it seems
> less likely and there would be people to help and support one
> another.
"SEEMS less likely" is a claim you need to support - statistics are
against you.
In fact - the CHRISTIAN research group -= the BARNA group =- in a
study obvioulsy wanting to prove YOUR point - proved it to be wrong.
The more fundamental your chirstian belief- the more likely you are to
commit suicide.
If wealth was ONLY money - you might have a case - but that is not the
case.
As far as people BEING THERE - that is nonsense as well. How many
kids (not your own) have YOU been a foster parent for - or a guardian
for. Every one of my brothers and sister have been - taking after my
father - who has been for more than a dozen.
>
> > > Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> > (you)
> > But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose
> > (me)
> > Still does not provide any answers though, that purpose weither real or imagined
> > just provides drive and a warm fuzzy feeling.
>
> And you want to deny me my drive and “warm fuzzy feeling” do you? You
> can have some too if you open your mind and heart! :-)
No - we don;t want to deny you a warm fuzzy feeling if dishonesty is
what you want out of life. WE simply want you to stop representing
your religion as TRUTH - which it is not.
WE can open our minds and hearts to people and actually do things that
help - belief is a waste if you don't actually do anything worthwhile
other than have a warm fuzzy feeling. People take illegal drugs to
escape reality -and get a warm fuzzy feeling.
>
>
>
> > (you)
> > and direction
>
> > (me)
> > I do not need a myth to give me a "direction".
>
> What gives you direction?
LIFE and the LIVING and reality.
There is NOTHING else that can!
>
>
>
> > (you)
> > and I’m sorry but believing you’re a cosmic accident soon to
> > be worm food isn’t one of them.
Again - that was YOUR statement - we are not accidents
Maybe you have parental issues you need help with!
>
> > (me)
> > again I'll ask, where did I say anything about an accident?
>
> Look at it. Our planet just happens to have water. Our planet just
> happens to have the right atmosphere. Our planet just happens to be
> warm enough but not too warm. Our planet just happens to have seasons.
> Our planet just happened to have the right gravitational pull, our
> planet just happened to develop life. Our planet just happened to
> develop inelegant life. Its all a big coincidence!!! The mathematical
> precision of the universe is just a coincidence. The miracle of life
> in all its beauty is just a coincidence. The great writers, poets
> musicians and our ability to appreciate them is coincidence!
>
> However, you can not
Sure we can - we simply do not need to make up a story as to where it
came from that has no basis in reality or fact.
However - not as many as once happened
>
> > (me)
> > There is a old saying..........there's a sucker born every
> > minute.............well, there's a lot of them and you just confirmed it.
>
> Not really.
Again - an unsupported statement that is wrong -
IT IS an old saying
Anybody relying on only one source would be ill-informed.
> I only really came across them a few years ago when I got Satellite
> TV!
>
>
>
> > > Well there was a person called Jesus – that is a fact.
> > > Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> > > faith.
>
> > > It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been
> > > proven
> > > to be factually alive.
>
> > (you)
> > This is wrong. There are records external to the Bible which were
> > written within living memory of Jesus which refer to Christians.
Sorry - there are NO records of anything relating to the LIFE of the
christ - NONE
We know that there are deluded followers - but no proven record he
ever lived.
>
> > (me)
> > OK, I'll bite, what external records? Name them.
>
> Our friend Google:http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/non-biblical-accounts-new-test...
>
>
Not one of them PROVES the christ lived - only that there were people
of his belief.
>
> > (you)
> > Use your brain on that – cause and effect - if there were Christians
> > following a Rabbi, who were they following if not Jesus as they
> > themselves claimed?
>
> > (me)
> > Use your brain, was RA real? Did the people of Egypt follow the "teachings" of
> > RA?
>
> > (you)
> > We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> > themselves
We also have the Egyptian BOOK of the dead - the Enuma Elis - the
Quran - the VEDAS - the writings of Buddha - Confucius - and John
Smith - as well as L. RON Hubbard - Jim Jones - and Sun Myung MOON -
among others
>
> > (me)
> > which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
> > before the time of the alleged Jesus.
> > 371-286B.C.E: Lifetime of Aristotle’s disciple, Theophrastus of Eresus. He
> > proposed ... that God is spirit. (this idea became widespread in the 1st century
> > CE before
> > the Gospel of John was written. “God is a Spirit.” (John 4:24 KJV)
Which ONLY prove somone read Theophrastus - nothing more
>
> > 3rd century B.C.E: The Ptolemies, promote the syncretism of Greek and
> > Egyptian religions. The Stoics appear. Euseb> ….
> > No one called Jesus “a god” before his death. -Romulus served as prototype for
> > Jesus’ story.)
>
> Bollix!
SUch a WONDERFUL christian response!!!!!!
>
> > (you)
>
> > and those scriptures that did not make it into the Bible.
> > (me)
> > So?
>
> > > > > > FOr centuries - PIOUS christians have prayed for the limbs they lost in
> > > > > > wars and to disease to be re-grown.
>
> > > > > > We have NO example of that ever happening =-
>
> > > > > Why should it happen?
>
> > > > Ah - if the christ supposedly said - "ask in faith and you will
> > > > receive" - then it should be a commonplace event - since it HAS been
> > > > asked in faith by lots of people.
>
> > > I do take your point but accept maybe this is not part of what God
> > > meant.
>
> > > Then "god" should not have promised it.
>
> > (you)
> > Or perhaps we should not put him to the test?
>
> > (me)
> > Apparently it's OK to test god.........The fact is the bible has a number of
> > passages that imply god is to be tested, with the reasoning of it will prove
> > this god.
Or Disprove it
>
> > And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal
> > me...? And Isaiah said ... shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back
> > ten degrees? And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go
> > down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. And
> > Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees
> > backward. -- 2 Kings 20:8-11
>
> But God had a funny relationship with the Jews as his chosen
> people! ;-)
Not according to the JEWS
>
> > (you)
> > I don’t want to sound
> > callus as it is a difficult issue that I don’t have any ready answers
> > to.
>
> > (me)
> > Hmmmmmmmm, and you take issue with me when I say that "Fact is there are some
> > things in life you will just have no answers for." That's rather hypocritical.
>
> My things are fairly small though. Yours are huge!
IT is the SAME thing - your statement is just doubletalk
Fred Thomas
On 15 Nov, 15:28, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1212864f-0cc6-43b8...@l2g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...> 1.
> How did we get here?
> > 2. Why are we here?
>
> > 1) evolution
>
> (you)
> Oh no, not this again. OK what happened before we evolved?
> (me)
> What ever we evolved from evolved.
>
> (you)
> The Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang?
> (me)
> Don't know. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain
> anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.
(you)
Its called deductive reasoning.
(me)
Not even close. All you are doing is telling a child not to do something. the
child asks, why not? You reply because I said so. That's all you myth worship
is, god says so, so it is. Sorry, but that's pretty empty.
>
> (you)
> Something else. So you�re saying �its no good! Its rocks all the way down!�
> (me)
> Really? where did I say that?
>
So where did I say it?
> > 2) because we are alive
>
> (you)
> Why?
> (me)
> Why what?
> (you)
> What is life about?
> (me)
> Living it.
(you)
What makes you tick?
(me)
Same thing that makes every one tick. A beating heart.
> (you)
> Why do you get up in the morning?
>
> (me)
> Because I stopped sleeping.
(you)
Everybody does that. What particular reason for getting up?
(me)
Because staying in bed all day is a waste of good day light.
>
> (you)
> What do you want for the future?
>
> (me)
> That's a personal question, why do you ask?
(you)
Well you�ve attacked my personal faith and true I have put it on
display. However if you are asking me to give up my all loving God, I
think it is only right you tell me what your belief system is about
and what you have to offer me that could possibly compere with the
Creator of Heaven on Earth???
:-)
(me)
And what does all that have to do with the question of "What do you want for
the future"?
> (you)
> What do you value in life as important?
> (me)
> The whole life thing.
(you)
Which is?
(me)
living it.
>
> > 3) worm food, we rot.
>
> (you)
> A cosmic accident and then oblivion? Great! No wonder so many people
> are on Prozac!
>
> (me)
> I never said anything about an accident. People are on Prozac for a lot of
> reasons.
(me)
First let me put back what you cut out...
"Do you have a medical background and training to make such a statement?"
(You)
Indeed. However the wealthiest part of the world should be the
happiest
(me)
Why? Are you implying that collecting a lot of stuff is the key to the emptiness
you feel?
(You)
however we have large numbers of very unhappy people and this
can often develop into Depression when people�s lives spiral out of
control.
(me)
Has nothing to do with accumulation of "stuff".
(you)
I am not saying Christians are immune from this but it seems
less likely and there would be people to help and support one
another.
(me)
You must live in a void then.
> > Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>
> (you)
> But there are some things that give life meaning and purpose
> (me)
> Still does not provide any answers though, that purpose weither real or
> imagined
> just provides drive and a warm fuzzy feeling.
(you)
And you want to deny me my drive and �warm fuzzy feeling� do you? You
can have some too if you open your mind and heart! :-)
(me)
How an I denying you anything? When are you going to learn YOU control YOU, YOU
are in charge of YOU, YOU make YOU what you will be today and tomorrow. Relying
on a myth to get a "warm fuzzy" feeling is no different than a drug addict
getting a fix, one is emotional (you) the other a physical chemical need (drug
addict).
>
> (you)
> and direction
>
> (me)
> I do not need a myth to give me a "direction".
(you)
What gives you direction?
(me)
Me.
>
> (you)
> and I�m sorry but believing you�re a cosmic accident soon to
> be worm food isn�t one of them.
>
> (me)
> again I'll ask, where did I say anything about an accident?
(you)
Look at it. Our planet just happens to have water.
(me)
And know scientists have found water on other planets and it is well known many
comets in orbit are composed of water ice, your point?
(You)
Our planet just happens to have the right atmosphere.
(me)
For most forms of life as we know it, however recent findings show we did not
fully know where life can exist. Example bacteria living on rocks deep with in
the earth. Single cell animals that consume what we would consider toxic.
Organisms that thrive in water so hot it would kill you or I, living off gasses
escaping from the earths crust in the deepest parts of the oceans.
(You)
Our planet just happens to be warm enough but not too warm.
(me)
See above
(you)
Our planet just happens to have seasons.
(me)
So do the other planets Mars has four distinct seasons.
(you)
Our planet just happened to have the right gravitational pull,
(me)
Compared to what? Are you so knowledgeable of life forms that you know that life
has to have exactly our level of gravitational pull?
(you)
Our planet just happened to develop life.
(me)
Our planet has life and we are just in out infancy of looking else where, your
point?
(you)
Our planet just happened to develop inelegant life.
(me)
It's pretty arrogant to think this planet is the only planet with "intelligent"
life forms.
(you)
Its all a big coincidence!!!
(me)
Where did I say it is?
(you)
The mathematical precision of the universe is just a coincidence.
(me)
Mathematical precision? If that's the case why do objects in space collide? That
implies imperfection, which makes the statment of "mathematical precision of
the universe" false.
(you)
The miracle of life
(me)
Is it a miracle? How?
(you)
in all its beauty is just a coincidence. The great writers, poets
musicians and our ability to appreciate them is coincidence!
(me)
My having an appreciation of music or art is not a coincidence, it is an
acquired taste. I learned to do so, just as you.
>However, you can not
> get by the fact that when you die, your survivors have few options as what to
> do
> with your body. Burn it or burry it. That is a fact of the life cycle.
>
(me)
Don't want to touch that one, do you?
> (you)
> So you must have something else?
> (me)
> something else what?
>
> (You)
> Or are you running like a hamster on a wheal?
>
> (me)
> There are times I use a treadmill, it's good to keep up the cardiovascular
> system when the weather is bad.
>
> > >there will be a dozen TV televangelists who
> > > will be teaching THEIR churches love of MONEY.
> > > Aaron Copleland will still be telling his "flock" - that giving to his
> > > NEW JET PLANE fund is more important that eating or paying for
> > > medicine because it will better allow him to do his gods work. * he
> > > already has two jet planes too)
>
> > I can�t comment on American Televangelists who have jet planes. The
> > ones I see on our British Christian channels seem very good at
> > teaching and genuine in what they are doing.
>
> > That�s called good acting.
>
> (you)
> �all the world�s a stage� loll
> Well, I don�t doubt that a degree of showmanship must be employed to
> convey the message and I am not so naive as to form an opinion of
> somebody�s actions based on their words. However the fact remains that
> many are very convincing in their sermons and do win people to
> Christ.
>
> (me)
> There is a old saying..........there's a sucker born every
> minute.............well, there's a lot of them and you just confirmed it.
(you)
Not really. Anybody relying on only one source would be ill-informed.
I only really came across them a few years ago when I got Satellite
TV!
(me)
So you've been living in a vacuum? You think that pay satellite is the only
medium they use?
>
> > Well there was a person called Jesus � that is a fact.
> > Whether or not you believe he was the Son of God is a matter of
> > faith.
>
> > It is not a fact, the Jesus is either a legend or myth, but has not been
> > proven
> > to be factually alive.
>
> (you)
> This is wrong. There are records external to the Bible which were
> written within living memory of Jesus which refer to Christians.
>
> (me)
> OK, I'll bite, what external records? Name them.
(you)
Our friend Google:
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people
(me)
As you can see below, it's not evidence, and not conclusive. They are too easy
to poke holes in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
Flavius Josephus , The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been
disputed since the 17th century.
The topic of the Testimonium's authenticity has attracted much scholarly
discussion. Louis Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of
1937-1980, "the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in
whole or in part".[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
Tacitus: Again there is quite a lot of dispute of the authentic of the writings.
Besides that, Tacitus lived after the alleged live of the Jesus dude, so he
could not have been an eye witness and at that point only be writing third hand
passed down information. Book 15 of the Annals were composed C.E.115.
Thallus: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html
This is a preliminary essay, outlining some important facts about Thallus, a
pagan chronologer of unknown date who is occasionally mentioned in the works of
Christian apologists, modern and ancient, as a 1st century pagan witness to the
gospel tradition of a "darkness" at the death of Christ: see Mark 15:33; Luke
23:44; and Matthew 27:51-53, whose account includes an earthquake, split rocks,
and zombies; John makes no mention of any such events, nor does Paul or any
other New Testament author.
Such a story has obvious mythic overtones and can easily be doubted. That a
solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and
other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and
Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and
that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific
superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil
Georgics 2.47.478-80). It was also typical to assimilate eclipses to major
historic events, even when they did not originally correspond, or to invent
eclipses for this purpose (Pr�aux claims to have counted 200 examples in extant
literature; Boeuffle and Newton have also remarked on this tendency). The gospel
stories also make a solar eclipse impossible: the crucifixion passover happened
during a full moon, and the darkness supposedly lasted three hours (indeed,
Julius Africanus claimed it covered the whole world). Such an impossible event
would not fail to be recorded in the works of Seneca, Pliny, Josephus or other
historians, yet it is not mentioned anywhere else outside of Christian rhetoric,
so we can probably dismiss the idea of this being a real event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
[edit] Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to
Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to
worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the
gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your
image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues
of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ � none of which those who are really
Christians, it is said, can be forced to do � these I thought should be
discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but
then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three
years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all
worshiped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.[86]
Charles Guignebert, who does not doubt that Jesus of the Gospels lived in
Gallilee in the first century, nevertheless dismisses this letter as acceptable
historical evidence: "Only the most robust credulity could reckon this assertion
as admissible evidence for the historicity of Jesus"[87]
> (you)
> Use your brain on that � cause and effect - if there were Christians
> following a Rabbi, who were they following if not Jesus as they
> themselves claimed?
>
> (me)
> Use your brain, was RA real? Did the people of Egypt follow the "teachings" of
> RA?
>
> (you)
> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> themselves
>
> (me)
> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
> 371-286B.C.E: Lifetime of Aristotle�s disciple, Theophrastus of Eresus. He
> proposed ... that God is spirit. (this idea became widespread in the 1st
> century
> CE before
> the Gospel of John was written. �God is a Spirit.� (John 4:24 KJV)
>
> 3rd century B.C.E: The Ptolemies, promote the syncretism of Greek and
> Egyptian religions. The Stoics appear. Euseb> �.
> No one called Jesus �a god� before his death. -Romulus served as prototype for
> Jesus� story.)
(you)
Bollix!
(me)
What's confusing, all I've mentioned is verifiable.
(you)
But God had a funny relationship with the Jews as his chosen
people! ;-)
(me)
Oh please the self proclaimed non-changing god? Beyond that, it appears that
it's relationship with it's churches today is at best estranged.
> (you)
> I don�t want to sound
> callus as it is a difficult issue that I don�t have any ready answers
> to.
>
> (me)
> Hmmmmmmmm, and you take issue with me when I say that "Fact is there are some
> things in life you will just have no answers for." That's rather hypocritical.
(you)
My things are fairly small though. Yours are huge!
(me)
What's huge and what's small? Besides that it seems you see the hypocrisy, so
now you try to minimize it.
Roger Pearse
> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> themselves
>
> (me)
> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
This is very, very gullible.
>
> About 700 B.C.E: The legendary Homer writes the Iliad and Odyssey and
> mentions that after death, mortals go to Hades and exist as ghosts/spirits.
So? Is this supposed to be evidence of something, and if so what?
> (The myth of Dionysus and other similar myths inspired the birth accounts
> of Matthew and Luke.)
Your ancient documentation to this effect will be interesting to see.
Oh wait, you don't have any....
> 409-358 B.C.E: Reign of Artaxerxes II, worshipper of god Ahura Mazda. He
> venerates the godsMithrasand Anahita. Mithra is the mediator between the god
> Ahura Mazda and mankind. (Likewise, Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind.)
I wonder just where you are pasting this crap from... you're too dim
to have thought this up yourself. Ah, I see.... you borrowed it from
here:
http://www.jesushistory.info/Timeline_of_book.htm
Did you check any of this? Before repeating it, with utter certainty,
as fact? Can you offer any ancient sources that support these
claims? No?
<snip more crap which you have no idea whether it is true>
> No one called Jesus “a god” before his death.
How cute.
> -Romulus served as prototype for
> Jesus’ story.)
Evidence? Oh.
> and those scriptures that did not make it into the Bible.
> (me)
Which ones would those be?
You seem incredibly gullible. If some crude lie is convenient, you
believe it and repeat it. Why did you decide to be such a dork?
Never heard of "too good to be true"? No?
<snip vituperation>
Yeah, right, loads of hearsay bitching here. Just give us one good
reason why we should all live as you do, by convenience and
conformity?
What's that you say? You deny it but try to keep your views off the
table?
Good luck with that, dork. <smile>
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Thommadura
> On Nov 15, 3:28 pm, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
>> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>> (you)
>> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
>> themselves
>>
>> (me)
>> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
>> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
>
> This is very, very gullible.
Sorry ROGER - but IN FACT - we do not KNOW who wrote most of the bible
That happens to be a fact - it is NOT said in the bible.
>
>> About 700 B.C.E: The legendary Homer writes the Iliad and Odyssey and
>> mentions that after death, mortals go to Hades and exist as ghosts/spirits.
>
> So? Is this supposed to be evidence of something, and if so what?
No - it is no more true than anything supernatural in the BIBLE either
>
>> (The myth of Dionysus and other similar myths inspired the birth accounts
>> of Matthew and Luke.)
>
> Your ancient documentation to this effect will be interesting to see.
> Oh wait, you don't have any....
Neither do YOU for the bible
So that makes YOU even
>
>> 409-358 B.C.E: Reign of Artaxerxes II, worshipper of god Ahura Mazda. He
>> venerates the godsMithrasand Anahita. Mithra is the mediator between the god
>> Ahura Mazda and mankind. (Likewise, Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind.)
>
> I wonder just where you are pasting this crap from... you're too dim
> to have thought this up yourself. Ah, I see.... you borrowed it from
> here:
>
> http://www.jesushistory.info/Timeline_of_book.htm
>
> Did you check any of this? Before repeating it, with utter certainty,
> as fact? Can you offer any ancient sources that support these
> claims? No?
No more than YOU check about the bible - which is not more proven
>
>
>> No one called Jesus �a god� before his death.
>
> How cute.
Since yOU cannot prove he lived or died - that is a reasonable statement
>
>> -Romulus served as prototype for
>> Jesus� story.)
>
> Yeah, right, loads of hearsay bitching here. Just give us one good
> reason why we should all live as you do, by convenience and
> conformity?
ANd YOUR hearsay is NO better -
There is no reason to live as YOU do - deluded BY an unproven religion
as well.
After all - YOUR religion has directions on how to properly sell your
daughter into slavery (THat is IN the bible)
It documents how your god ORDERED genocide.
It even documents that he did not know that it was not FIG season - so
he mutilated the tree!
You are just a pagan - you go to a church - bow to an altar - attend
human sacrifice rituals of body and blood - pray to statues - you count
the prayers with trinkets - and confess to ICONS on a wall.
Since NONE of them have an OTHER provable meaning - your belief is nonsense
James
>The Lord has been replaced...................
>
>....................................by the bible.
>
>It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
>you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>
>And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
>theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>righteous according to the Word.
>
>Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>
>denomination you can name.
>
>The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched with the
>soiled hands of men.
>
>
>
>
>
Hello,
Those who take the Bible and twist it to their own ideologies, will
certainly not be blessed by God and Jesus. Rather as the following
verse says, they will meet their own "destruction". 2 Pe 3:16,
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction." (NIV)
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
pyotr filipivich
about Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:28:52 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to
appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On 15 Nov, 00:35, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
>> "pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:qciuf51e65je9e2kc...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
>> > 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
>> > alt.christnet.christianlife �the following:
>>
>> >>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>>
>> >>1. How did we get here?
>> >>2. Why are we here?
>> >>3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket - sorry, die?
>>
>> >>1) evolution
>> >>2) because we are alive
>> >>3) worm food, we rot.
>> >>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>>
>> > So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
>> > is an illusion. �After all, you are merely animated mud. � � Well, at
>> > least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>>
>> > Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
>> > animated mud.
>> > -
>>
>> Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements.
>
> Lives are worthless but skin makes good lampshades?
Well, I do have to admit, that does make a utilitarian argument
for treating people well.
tschus
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich
14 Nov 2009 19:35:20 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Let the Record show that "Fred Thomas" <fr...@aol.com> on or about Sat,
>> 14 Nov 2009 17:43:24 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
>> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>
>>>Let me ask you some very simple but very big questions
>>>
>>>1. How did we get here?
>>>2. Why are we here?
>>>3. Where do we go when we kick the bucket - sorry, die?
>>>
>>>1) evolution
>>>2) because we are alive
>>>3) worm food, we rot.
>>>Fact is there are some things in life you willl just have no answers for.
>>
>> So, you're existence is mere happenstance, and your significance
>> is an illusion. After all, you are merely animated mud. Well, at
>> least you're not attempting to be something you are not.
>>
>> Kind of interesting, though, as Christians believe too that man is
>> animated mud.
>> -
>
>Break down any life form, all it is; is a mixture of elements.
And...? The point is that while Christians and Darwinists might
agree that we are animated mud, there is a stark difference between
what animates that mud, and the implications there of. Because the
Christians believe that God animated the original "mud men" with his
spirit, we also say that makes each individual significant, in and of
themselves. The least individual is to recognized as being created in
the image of God.
But the Darwinist does not have that animating spirit, but
replaces it with mere chemical processes acquiring increasing
complexity until it reaches a self-awareness. The individual remains
an abstraction derived from the aggregate of statistical compilations.
There is nothing inherent in any one individual to allow them to be
consider more significant than any other. Or conversely, to not
consider any individual or group to be insignificant.
> Is any one person really significant? Is the fact that my heart beats and I think and reason an
>illusion? No it's not an illusion, it's not an illusion that you responded to a
>post of mine, and I respond back.
Here we hit the numb of the discussion: is the significance of the
individual intrinsic, or assigned? Are you significant because you
exist, or merely because someone else takes note of your existence,
and finds value in having you around?
pyotr filipivich
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
Thommadura doesn't get it. Those are axioms, things taken as
"given". Monotheism begins with two axioms: there is a God; it is not
you. As Thommadura doesn't accept the first axiom, he is not a
monotheist.
-
James
>Let the Record show that "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> on
>or about Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:53:45 GMT did write/type or cause to
>appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>
>>....................................by the bible.
>>
>>It is now not about worshipping Him, it is about studying what is in the
>>written word. That way you can take any bible verse you like, yes anyone
>>you like, and then make it mean anything your little heart desires.
>>
>>And the result is you have all these pretenders drunk in their personalised
>>theology and indulging themselves in unrighteousness claiming they are
>>righteous according to the Word.
>>
>>Oh dear, how far things have fallen!!
>>
>>And that is exactly what is happening throughout the earth with every
>>denomination you can name.
>>
>>The real Church is hidden, thank God, where she cannot be touched with the
>>soiled hands of men.
>
>is not at hand, it hasn't prevailed against the gates of Hell, and
>there is no way to know what was meant by the written records left
>behind.
>
>bummer, dude.
Hello,
OR---- the real church is right in front of mankind's nose, and the
Kingdom of God is at hand.
Did you know that Jesus himself prophesied that one way to tell you
were in the last days right before God's government takes over, is to
look for a WORLDWIDE preaching of God's kingdom by his servants. Mt
24:14,
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)
I know of only one religious group doing that. Jehovah's Witnesses. Do
you know of any others?
Sincerely, James
**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads
***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
>
>
>pyotr
Roger Pearse
> Roger Pearse wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 3:28 pm, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> >> (you)
> >> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> >> themselves
>
> >> (me)
> >> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating around
> >> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
>
> > This is very, very gullible.
>
> Sorry ROGER - but IN FACT - we do not KNOW who wrote most of the bible
Well, I know, and the ancients know. Sorry about you.
> >> (The myth of Dionysus and other similar myths inspired the birth accounts
> >> of Matthew and Luke.)
>
> > Your ancient documentation to this effect will be interesting to see.
> > Oh wait, you don't have any....
>
> Neither do YOU for the bible <snip bigotry>
You don't seem able to deal with the point made, other than by trying
to change the subject and making daft claims. Not exactly a
recommendation for your religious position, is it?
> >> 409-358 B.C.E: Reign of Artaxerxes II, worshipper of god Ahura Mazda. He
> >> venerates the godsMithrasand Anahita. Mithra is the mediator between the god
> >> Ahura Mazda and mankind. (Likewise, Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind.)
>
> > I wonder just where you are pasting this crap from... you're too dim
> > to have thought this up yourself. Ah, I see.... you borrowed it from
> > here:
>
> >http://www.jesushistory.info/Timeline_of_book.htm
>
> > Did you check any of this? Before repeating it, with utter certainty,
> > as fact? Can you offer any ancient sources that support these
> > claims? No?
>
> No more than <snip change of subject>
Always amusing to watch an atheist run away from demands for evidence.
The remainder of this post suggests the poster suffers from some form
of mental illness, poor chap, but has nothing to do with my post.
Fred Thomas
"Roger Pearse" <roger....@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1f0cbaca-860e-482c...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 16, 5:14 pm, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Roger Pearse wrote:
> > On Nov 15, 3:28 pm, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> >> (you)
> >> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> >> themselves
>
> >> (me)
> >> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating
> >> around
> >> before the time of the alleged Jesus.
>
> > This is very, very gullible.
>
> Sorry ROGER - but IN FACT - we do not KNOW who wrote most of the bible
Well, I know, and the ancients know. Sorry about you.
How do you know? The ancients are dead, so you might as well not mention them.
Roger Pearse
until a troll posted and replied to my reply to him. This is strange
behaviour. Why don't you discuss what I wrote about YOUR post?
On Nov 25, 9:03 pm, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> "Roger Pearse" <roger.pea...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1f0cbaca-860e-482c...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 16, 5:14 pm, Thommadura <tommad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >Roger Pearsewrote:
> > > On Nov 15, 3:28 pm, "Fred Thomas" <f...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> "Claire" <claireonuse...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> > >> (you)
> > >> We also have the letters of Paul, the gospels
> > >> themselves
>
> > >> (me)
> > >> which knowbody knows the authorship, and are stories that were floating
> > >> around before the time of the alleged Jesus.
>
> > > This is very, very gullible.
>
> > Sorry ROGER - but IN FACT - we do not KNOW who wrote most of the bible
>
> Well, I know, and the ancients know. Sorry about you.
>
> How do you know? The ancients are dead, so you might as well not mention them.
Quite so. In which case I pose exactly the same question right back
at you in respect of your own comment, "which knowbody knows the
authorship, and are stories that were floating around before the time
of the alleged Jesus." How do you know? And you can't mention the
ancients because they are dead.
Evidence of your time machine will be most interesting to see...
<smile>
Your posts consist merely of stating as fact what you find
convenient. Don't do this.
Fred Thomas
Sorry dude, the question was posed to you, your obligated to respond. How do you
know? No answer is an indication your just full of crap. I need not mention any
ancient, they are dead, however many unlike say Jesus did leave behind
artifacts. Funny you mention a time machine eh?
Steve Hayes
>Quite so. In which case I pose exactly the same question right back
>at you in respect of your own comment, "which knowbody knows the
>authorship, and are stories that were floating around before the time
>of the alleged Jesus." How do you know? And you can't mention the
>ancients because they are dead.
>
>
>
>Sorry dude, the question was posed to you, your obligated to respond. How do you
>know? No answer is an indication your just full of crap. I need not mention any
>ancient, they are dead, however many unlike say Jesus did leave behind
>artifacts. Funny you mention a time machine eh?
>
>
>Evidence of your time machine will be most interesting to see...
><smile>
>
>Your posts consist merely of stating as fact what you find
>convenient. Don't do this.
>
>All the best,
>
>Roger Pearse
So who is this really, Fred or Roger?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
The instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth
wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words,
even when the needy speaketh right.
But the liberal deviseth liberal things;
and by liberal things shall he stand (Isaiah 32:7-8).
Fred Thomas
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s36tg5dsv938tb9jk...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:05:56 -0500, "Fred Thomas" <fr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Quite so. In which case I pose exactly the same question right back
>>at you in respect of your own comment, "which knowbody knows the
>>authorship, and are stories that were floating around before the time
>>of the alleged Jesus." How do you know? And you can't mention the
>>ancients because they are dead.
>>
>>
>>
>>Sorry dude, the question was posed to you, your obligated to respond. How do
>>you
>>know? No answer is an indication your just full of crap. I need not mention
>>any
>>ancient, they are dead, however many unlike say Jesus did leave behind
>>artifacts. Funny you mention a time machine eh?
>>
>>
>>Evidence of your time machine will be most interesting to see...
>><smile>
>>
>>Your posts consist merely of stating as fact what you find
>>convenient. Don't do this.
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>Roger Pearse
>
> So who is this really, Fred or Roger?
>