The Greatest Apostle of Jesus, Paul.
Guardian Snowpheonix
1) Seal Up The Words (Dan 12:9)
2) Digest Daniel's Words (Rev 10:10)
3) Reveal the Vision (Rev 10:11)
Here are two questions:
1) Seal up what words? We can read the words, can't we? Dan
8:27 ...and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
It will become more obvious as to why certain parts of Daniel's
Prophecy, were "sealed." What was sealed IS the "UNDERSTANDING."
It's very obvious that through Daniel's Prophecy we can "SEE" the
accuracy of certain events such as Babylon's Golden Age being
overthrown by Media Persia's Silver Age, that was overthrown By
Greece's Bronze Age, that was overthrown by the fourth Empire Rome's
Iron Age, that dissolved from within to become "Iron & Miry Clay, an
Iron and Concrete Age.
This is a basic overview, so as to illustrate how "CERTAIN WORDS OF
DANIELS PROPHECY" are NO LONGER SEALED to you who UNDERSTAND the TRUE
MEANING of Nebuchadnezzar's Dream. Here is another example: After
Media Persia overthrew Babylon, Daniel UNDERSTOOD THE VISION. Dan 10:1
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto
Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true,
but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had
understanding of the vision.
It is important for the reader to realize DANIEL WAS GIVEN
understanding of this one particular part of the entire prophetic
vision (Daniel 2:32-45). Even after interpreting the dream, he was
shown "Another Vision" of the same dream in Chapter 8!!! But he still
didn't understand it. Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick
certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I
was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
It wasn't UNTIL AFTER Media Persia overthrew Babylon that Daniel COULD
SEE the meaning (Dan 10:1). Daniel lived long enough to realize the
Vision was TRUE; by actually living during the time of the Silver Age.
It is also obvious these are not the words that were sealed.
2) What happened after understanding (digesting) the words? This
requires a deep desire to want to know. Daniel was disturbed! He was
without strength! John was "sickened!" What actually caused the
"disturbance?" What actually caused "being sickened?"
The words that are "SEALED TO DANIEL" actually "PINPOINT" THREE Major
Events That would occur DURING THE TIME OF ROME!
(1) The ENTRY of the True Messiah (Yahusha) at the beginning of
seventieth week in 27AD.
(2) The death of Messiah after three and a half years (1260 days)
midway in the seven years after his anointing.
(3) The ENTRY of Satan to "Set The Stage"1290 days after Messiah is
killed, thirty days past the second half of the seventieth week. For
the "The Abomination That Causes Desolation" from a murdering
persecuting Beast Power to a growing, changing, magnificent, WONDERFUL
WOMAN WHO DESTROYS WONDERFULLY!!! A power that destroys with "SWEET
WORDS" of "ANOTHER GOSPEL.
Daniel was without strength, DISTURBED, and John was "SICKENED"!
Dan 7:28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my
thoughts greatly alarmed me, and my color changed in me: but I kept
the matter in my heart.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days.
Dan 10:16 ...by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have
retained no strength.
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate
it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had
eaten it, my belly was bitter.
It is no great surprise, when you "Digest the Vision," plan on being
disturbed, yes, even sickened.
The question we need to ask ourselves is "Am I ready to "LOOK AT HOW
DEEP and DARK this deception goes?"
BE PREPARED TO BE DISTURBED
Well, let's see if we can identify the "Abomination that makes
desolate." Let's get an overview based on the verses we need to
DISCERN.
Basically, Messiah is warning us "HIS PEOPLE WILL BE TESTED" (Deut
13:1 -5)! A False Prophet (False Apostle) will arise, so powerful, he
could FOOL EVEN THE ELECT. He will come in his own name (without two
witnesses), and will be accepted; he starts out as a persecuting
power, suffers a deadly wound, then becomes a wondrous thing. This
individual's words, actions and deeds will lead many astray, as his
gospel carries more weight than Messiah's True Message of repentance
(1Jn 3:4: Sin is transgression of the Law). The "Abomination that
makes desolate" is "Another Gospel" that Stands in the Place of
Messiah's words. Although it appears to be right, sounds true (it's
sweet in one's mouth), it destroys wonderfully as poison (tares) to
destroy the would-be gullible victim (2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for
Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light). Therefore it is
no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers
of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Cherished Beliefs Will be DESTROYED!
(Understanding the REVELATION)
MESSIAH SAID in Mark13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall
deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten:
and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a
testimony against them.
PAUL said in Acts 22:4-5 And I persecuted this way unto the death,
binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the
high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders:
from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to
Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to
be punished.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up
out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns
ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. The beast is a
persecuting power, that overthrows Kingdoms, its heads are a SEPARATE
POWER to overthrow the Father's KINGDOM!! Why do you think Johns
Letter was written to the Seven Churches?
Acts 26:10-11 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the
saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the
chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice
against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and
compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I
persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make
war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Yahusha the Messiah).
Remember, Messiah said in Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to
be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake.
Acts 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind
all that call on thy name. Saul is the Beast that rose up and
persecuted the followers of Yahusha for three and a half years.
"SETTING THE STAGE"
What really happened on the road to DAMASCUS?
Messiah prophesied in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan
as lightning fall from heaven.
Acts 9:6 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly
there shined round about him a light from heaven. This "Road Trip"
takes place AFTER THE STONING of Stephan (who was the sign of Israel
Rejecting Messiah's Message and The sign of the end of the seventieth
week). This is when the "Abomination that makes desolate" "is set" or
determined 1290 days after Messiah's death. Notice in Acts 7:51-53
Stephan preached his last Sermon on keeping the Law of YHWH. Then
Saul DETERMINES to continue to persecute the followers of YHWH, then
heads for Damascus (Acts 8:3, 9:1). DAN 12:12 Blessed is he who comes
to 1335 days (45 days after Stephen's stoning, Saul the persecutor is
stopped in his tracks on the road to Damascus).
Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice
speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why
persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
This statement is actually a Greek Proverb. You can find it written
in the story of Dionysus (pronounced De- o- knee - sus) "Bacchae of
Europide" written in 410 BC. http://www.dhushara.com/book/diochris/bacch.htm
Why would Messiah Yahusha speak a Greek Proverb from a Book of Satan,
while speaking HEBREW? The Place where Daniel said "The Stage was
Set" or in short "The SET UP" is taking place right before your eyes
was 1335 days after Messiah was cut off! OR have you been led to
believe it was Messiah who "fell like lightning" on the road to
Damascus?
Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Paul said in 2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is
transformed into an angel of light.
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were
afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. Notice!
They stood / they fell; they heard / they didn't hear; they saw / they
didn't see! Deut 19:15 ...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the
mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Needless
to say, according to the Torah, if there were not two witnesses, the
matter is not established!
1Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David. If
Satan could move David to believe he was doing the will of the Father,
do you think its possible for Satan, to cause "A Murderer" to believe
he will be doing the Father's will?
2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an
angel of light.
2Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with
all power and signs and lying wonders.
2Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that
perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they
might be saved. IS BREAKING THE FIRST COMMANDMENT A SERIOUS MATTER???
The test of Deut 13:1-3 is recognizing "The False Prophet" and
removing him from your presence, and recognizing it is HIM bringing
DESTRUCTION to all who believe his FALSE SALVATION PLAN, leading many
astray with "Another Gospel"!
Ezekiel 33:8-9 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man , thou shall
surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way,
that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I
require at thy own hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his
way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in
his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
WARN OTHERS!!! There is an Enemy in the camp!!!
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Did I mention Paul himself told us that "for Satan himself is
transformed into an angel of light."
In John 5:43 MESSIAH SAID I am come in my Father's name, and ye
receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will
receive.
How did Saul become Paul? He JUST becomes Paul?
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of
those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast.
Acts 14:11-12 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted
up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come
down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter;
and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker (Jupiter is
Zeus, Mercury is Hermes).
The Messiah spoke of the Abomination in Matt 24:15. When ye therefore
shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the
prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
understand:). The "Holy Place" could also be rendered "In the Place
of" Him who is "HOLY"! The parable of the Wheat & Tares illustrates
"AN ENEMY CREPT IN AND PLANTED (SEEDS) WORDS" as the means of
"STANDING IN THE PLACE OF" THE TRUE WHEAT. LUKE 8:11 Now the parable
is this: The seed is the word of God.
By Using "TARE" WORDS the enemy will "destroy wonderfully," by
"creating an illusion" of a "false salvation," EVEN A FALSE MESSIAH!
Can you Think of a greater masterpiece of DECEPTION than by creating
the thirteenth Apostle for a means of delivering "The NEW MESSAGE OF
SALVATION!" What a beautiful picture. A murderer from the beginning
stops destroying "physically" to do a "wondrous thing"... to deceive and
kill spiritually, thru LIES ... Let's keep searching the "clues" to
unmask how dark and deep this deception goes.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your
father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a
lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
PAUL said in Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded
through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner.
WHICH LIES WAS HE TALKING ABOUT? LET'S SEE...
Gal 5:6 Behold, I, Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing!
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing.
Ezek 44:9 Thus saith YHWH; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor
uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger
that is among the children of Israel! Are you sure you want to chance
believing how UNPROFITABLE circumcision is? To defile the sanctuary is
a serious matter!
Why were the people angry at Paul? Let's turn to Acts 18:13, This
fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law!
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that
teaches all men every where against the people, and the law, and this
place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath
polluted this holy place! *** Notice*** Ezek44:9*** Is it any wonder?
Who is standing in the "Holy Place" defiling it? Do we have to go any
further "TO OPEN YOUR EYES." IT HAS BEEN RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU ALL
THIS TIME!! BUT YOU JUST COULDN'T "SEE IT." These GREEKS WEREN'T
CIRCUMCISED.
This was the reason why the people rebuked Paul! They were being
obedient to the Torah (Deut 13:1-5).
Acts 13:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together:
and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the
doors were shut." Looks like the Temple was cleansed or vindicated,
doesn't it?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred
days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Messiah was cut off in the
middle of the last seven year TIME PERIOD ("WEEK") of the seventy
weeks prophecy (Dan 9:24). Messiah the "PRINCE" began his MINISTRY
after sixty-nine weeks passed (483 yrs). This leaves seven years to
fulfill the 490 years decreed. Messiah entered at the beginning of
the seventieth week. AFTER the first half the seventieth week (1260
days or three and a half years) MESSIAH IS CUT OFF (Dan 9:25). Then
"ON THE WING OF THAT ABOMINATION 1290 days, or three and a half years
+ thirty days later (the 2nd half of the 70th week), at the END of the
seventieth week plus thirty days, Stephen is stoned. Then forty-five
days later ENTERS Satan, who fell like lightning on the road to
Damascus. The tares were planted (TO ACT WITH EFFECT). This is the
actual SEED that grows to spawn Christianity.
Gal 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was
preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man,
neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
2Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised
from the dead according to my gospel
What is the definition of blasphemy? Isn't it defined "Making oneself"
equal to the almighty?
When you begin to realize the magnitude of this deception, and then
discover how far reaching it is you begin to experience "losing
strength" with "great disturbance."
Let's face the facts, Paul preached "Grace" and "Faith," not "Works."
Compare what Messiah taught in Matt 19:17; John 14:15 and 21, 15:10;
1John 2:3-4; and James 2:17. A few other works based verses are Ezek
18:27, Eccl 12:13, Luke 16:31 and Rev 22:14. Can we safely assume, by
Paul's OWN words, DANIEL IDENTIFIES THIS IS OF THE BEAST'S NATURE.
DANIEL 9:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to
prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by
peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of
princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Do you think "Cursing YHWH" equates to "Standing up against" or is it
possible this is referring to "The REAL PETER" whom Paul blamed
(accused)?
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me (Paul).
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed (who is the Accuser?).
Saul immediately began preaching "Christ" and "Confounded The
Jews"(Acts 9:20-22). WAIT A MINUTE!!! Saul went away to Arabia for
three years (Gal 1:16-18). Which story is true? Let's add up the
days that passed from the time the daily sacrifice was taken away or
when Messiah was cut off.
1260 days (second half of the seventieth week) plus 1080 days (time
alleged Saul who came back as "Paul" went away to Arabia) equals 2340
days. Is it possible "Paul" approximated his three years when in
actuality it was almost three years (actually forty days short of
three years)? Have you ever ROUNDED OFF A TIME? Like Paul rounded off,
actually being away for 320 days (almost a full year), to calling it a
full year. Of coarse it's very possible given the two varying accounts
of what Saul did after his epiphany.
Dan 7:25 He looks to change times and laws.
We know the reason he looks to change "Laws," is to cause people to
Sin (1John 3:4), but FEW REALIZE , its ALSO to "CONFOUND DANIEL'S
PROPHECY" REGARDING "SATANS ENTRY."
Deut 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of
dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder
come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after
other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou
shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of
dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the
LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. This of
course works with the First Commandment. It specifies "it's a TEST"
to PROVE YOUR LOVE.
Deut 13:4-5 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and
keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and
cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be
put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD
your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you
out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the
LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil
away from the midst of thee. Taking this issue lightly is like casting
the first and greatest Commandment to the ground. Ignorance is
overlooked for a season, but once we come to the knowledge of the
Truth, and refuse it., well all I can say is "That is a frightful
thing." Satan is deceiving people to break the First Commandment. Are
we willing to suffer the persecution, for pointing out the Evil in the
MIDST of the "Scriptures"?
ARE YOU BEGINNING TO BE DISTURBED?
Have you ever Looked at
"The Masterpiece"
>From "Satan's Point Of View?"
Let's understand our Adversary's objective!! It is to destroy the
people seeking truth of the Father's salvation for mankind! That's it
(Ecclesiasties 12:13).
People have been led to believe, Messiah "fell like lightning," on the
Road to Damascus, let's look at this closer!
Acts 9:5 It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. First of all,
you're supposed to believe the various accounts that took place, in
one chapter, they fell, another says they stood, they heard, they
didn't hear, they saw, they didn't see. The story was different in
three different places! You're supposed to believe this was the most
amazing conversion that ever happened. Paul is known as the GREATEST
APOSTLE, isn't he? Let's look at the statement "Kick against the Goads
(Pricks). Did you know that this statement was made by Dioyonsus (son
of Zeus) 410 years earlier in the Bacchae of Euripides?
This is how it reads "I would rather do him sacrifice, Than in a FURY,
Kicking against the Goads."
I find it hard to believe the Messiah would quote anything from these
writings (of Hashatan), especially a Greek Proverb, when Messiah was
speaking in Hebrew (maybe that's just me)!
Nevertheless, let's go from here. What is really being said here
behind the illusion of Messiah, from Satan's point of view? You can
see how the dark side of this masquerade would have gone something
like this:
"Saul , Saul, why do you try to destroy the Followers of Yahusha (kick
against the goads [pricks] or Go against God) in this manner?
Let me show you a way to accomplish this in a "wonderful manner you
won't really understand. You will think you are doing a service for
YHWH (Yahuah), but in reality you're accomplishing what I set out to
do in a different way. I will give you the sword of my words to slay
the masses, but for now, I needed to get your attention, and your life
depends on doing my will, is that understood Saul? Now, I will put
scales like a serpent's over your eyes, and send you to meet at an
appointed place where I've given instruction to another gullible agent
of mine, Anninias, and he will tell you what you are to do (Acts
22:12-15). We're going to stop this outward appearance of hatred and
learn to love. Lets just say "We will learn to kill with kindness."
Now follow my instructions: I will make you become the "Greatest
Apostle;" I will work signs and wonders through you, and I will give
you the authority to make more Apostles and all the world will
"WONDER" (even though they think they're following Messiah). Your
Gospel of Grace will be music to the ears of the would-be victim. And
they will follow You Paul, that's your new name, by the way, the old
you has passed away, and after you have established the basis of
Christianity (which is patterned after Dionysus), with many factions,
including Bishops, pastors and teachers, and I will make You Stand in
the PLACE of Messiah (Holy place) where your crown of righteousness
awaits you. Now do as you're told. I will show you the picture of how
my redemption really works as it is apparent you don't really
understand yet. I will send you away for about three years to Arabia,
where I will give you revelations. After this you will be the light
unto the Gentiles, even though Peter thinks he was chosen, you will be
given the power to confront him to his face, and blame him for not
understanding. Afterwards, it will APPEAR that it is this same Peter
who will agree your letters are scripture, although hard to
understand, and that you are a brother. One of my other followers,
Simon Peter Magus (the magician) will bind his words to your
Testimony, and be with you all the days Paul. The world won't discover
there are actually "TWO DIFFERENT PETERS" planted in the writings. I
give you the authority to blind and curse those who do not agree with
you, and if necessary, turn them over for destruction to have them
killed. I will give you the authority to even curse anyone or any
thing (including the Almighty himself) that preaches a different
Gospel than yours. This new Message I am giving you to deliver to the
world will cause strife between the Torah observant ones, and the ones
who grasp your Message, but fear not , many will believe they
understand you, and lead many to their understanding of you. Little do
they know, or perceive the magnificence of my plan as long as they
agree, your conversion was a most amazing event, this will suffice AS
LONG as they keep YOU in their midst.
Meanwhile, I have much to accomplish in the short time that I have
here on earth, I must make alterations in Times and Laws (to not only
confuse the timing of Daniel's prophecy regarding my entry, I must
also counterfeit and rReplace the names of the Most High, I must set
up My Economy, my Governments, and many more religions through out the
world.
http://www.666man.net/457BC_WhyCorrect_444BC_Arguments.html
The above website has some very insightful explanations you should
read.
Now this might appear as an extreme reading between the lines here,
but remember "He looks to deceive the whole world" and cause
destruction. If we don't "HEED" the Father's Commandment, to kill the
False Prophet, and deny his worthiness, we too face severe
consequences, as the result of NOT loving the father with all our
heart, mind, and soul, in the outward act of forsaking him, and
leading others astray, who have been blinded "by this deception" and
still hold on to the idea, "I've got grace."
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that
believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about
his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about
his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of
these little ones.
http://quicksitemaker.com/members/disciples/Daniel.html
What does Paul say about the law, really? Rom 3:20 Therefore by the
deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for
by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 6:14 ...for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
1Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not
expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought
under the power of any.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ask yourself a question! How did Stephen's message get nullified? Why
didn't Messiah tell the true Apostles "I've changed the message I gave
to you"?
Think about this. Dan 7:25 He thinks to change times and laws. Isn't
it becoming MORE OBVIOUS? What Spirit would try to cast the Law down?
What Spirit would cause confusion? What Spirit would preach a
different Savior?
Does this confuse you? Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by
the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have
believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of
Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law
shall no flesh be justified. It's clear "It's by faith."
Gal 3:20 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,
it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Again it's clear
"It's faith."
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of
works? Nay: but by the law of faith. It's faith, right?
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith
without the deeds of the law. It's faith for sure, isn't it?
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the
doers of the law shall be justified. WHAT? Which one is true? Hmmm.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that
justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Does
the father really justify the wicked?
What does the Torah say about justification?
Ex 23:7 For I will not justify the wicked (ungodly)!
Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the
just, even they both are abomination.
If you believe what Paul says, that would mean the Father Himself
would be an Abomination (scary isn't it?).
Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness
that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he
shall save his soul alive.
Ezek 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it,
they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith
the Master YHWH.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper
in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace
shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of
princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Read on carefully.
2Cor 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
crafty, I caught you with guile...
2Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you
service.
2Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am
more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons
more frequent, in deaths often.
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in
mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of
my fathers.
1Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which
was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly
than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
2Cor 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority,
which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your
destruction, I should not be ashamed." Did Daniel say he would boast?
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Is "ALL THE LAW" really fulfilled
or is this a "Half Truth."
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Look again at who is standing in Messiahs place!
As you can see "The Criteria" of the "Individual" who misleads the
people is quite fitting isn't it? Loving your neighbor is only half of
fulfilling ALL THE LAW! He left out the Greatest Commandment, the
first Commandment which includes Deut 13:1-5.
ARE YOU DISTURBED YET?
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Proverbs14:12 There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.
Eccl 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God,
and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Are we beginning to "SEE" what is really going on? Stay tuned, there
is much to uncover.
May the Almighty, King of kings, YHWH Elohim, Bless you with a new
understanding of what is the "Mystery of Lawlessness," and where it
was spawned.
John said in Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's
hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as
soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. After digesting Daniel's
book, the vision of the New Testament came into view. It was sweet in
his mouth, but yet, he was sickened!
Somehow Christianity has metamorphosed from Dionysus! ANOTHER GOSPEL
HAS CREPT IN! All You Have To Do is Believe! IT'S BY THE BLOOD!
Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord,
which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and
wonders to be done by their hands. Show me one place where Messiah
himself used the word "Grace." In addition, who is giving the beast
his power to perform signs and wonders?
Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul...
NOTICE 1Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked
David. If Satan could move David to believe he was doing the will of
the Father, do you think its possible for Satan, to cause "a Murderer"
to believe he will be doing the Father's will (for Satan himself is
transformed into an angel of light)?
Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Paul says in 1Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of
me. In many versions it says "be imitators..."
1Cor 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus
Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? Is a "Great Light"
enough evidence to say you saw "The Lord"?) Actually, what is the
true criteria for the title "Apostle"? Is it appropriate to take
credit for converting people. Act 1:22 says Beginning from the
baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must
one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Notice...
one must have walked with Messiah from the baptism of John, been
ordained, and witnessed the Resurrection! Saul didn't appear on the
scene until 1260 days had passed (Stephen's stoning). Thus, Paul fails
the qualifications for the title "Apostle."
Acts 1:23-26 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was
surnamed Justus, and Matthias. That he may take part of this ministry
and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might
go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell
upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Thus, Matthias was the twelfth Apostle. If anybody was qualified to be
the thirteenth Apostle it would have been Barsabas! Saul didn't make
the scene until three and a half years after Messiah died. It wasn't
actually until 2300 evenings and mornings passed until "Paul" crept
into the preaching mode.
1Cor 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to
you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
What did John say in REV 2:2? I know thy works, and thy labour, and
thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil, and
thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and
hast found them liars (written to the Church of Ephesis).
Funny how Paul said in 2Tim 1:15 "This thou knowest, that all they
which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and
Hermgenes. The Ephesians were commended for recognizing the "False
Apostles."
1Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I
am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Notice: would this be considered "Making yourself a savior?" Look who
is "Standing in Messiah's Place."
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Look again at who is standing in Messiah's place!
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus
Christ according to my gospel. What does it say in Rev 20:12? And the
dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works. Why doesn't it read "Paul's Gospel?"
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my
gospel. I thought it was Messiah's Gospel we were supposed to hear.
Paul said in Phil 3:6 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark
them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. Torah is the only
thing that Messiah taught and did; this is what we are supposed to
follow. Doesn't Revelation 14:11 talk about taking "The Mark" of the
Beast?
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and
his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the
beast.
Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and
Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him
out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Here Paul apparently
received a DEADLY WOUND.
Acts 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose
up, and came into the city." The deadly wound was healed.
Are you Getting the Picture?
PAULINE CHRISTIANITY and anyone else who takes Paul's Words as Gospel
has failed the test of DEUT 13:1-5!!
It is disturbing to think, we really didn't love YHWH with all our
heart, because we were not looking for the false prophet. Well now you
can say "HallaluYAH." I've found him, and cast him from my midst!!
SHALOM
Qadosh Stephanos
<snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>Are you Getting the Picture?
>
>PAULINE CHRISTIANITY and anyone else who takes Paul's Words as Gospel
>has failed the test of DEUT 13:1-5!!
>
>It is disturbing to think, we really didn't love YHWH with all our
>heart, because we were not looking for the false prophet. Well now you
>can say "HallaluYAH." I've found him, and cast him from my midst!!
>
>SHALOM
Your topic subject title was tricky and somewhat allusive.
But it does bring to mind Paul's smorgasbord of dual lies.
The preachers of Paul contend with the law and 10 percent.
They preach laws nullified then they preach about tithing.
They contend about 10 commandants which they never follow.
They permit Paul's woman to teach, despite what Paul said.
Painting pictures of the blond long haired Messiah.
Yet their Apostle Paul denounced long haired males.
Foundations of Truth are revealed by God in Spirit.
The dogs of the Pharisees are corruptions of Truth.
They that sell doctrine are feeding the lost venom.
The tree of knowledge, snakes of mendicant healing.
Guardian Snow
wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:06:39 -0700, Guardian Snowpheonix
>
It made me sick to leave it, I had to delete it.
Guardian Snow
>
This page is not my work but I agree with it's conclusion. Some
things in this post are not verified by me and so I include the link
to the source and pass it on as requested by the author.
http://yahuah.org/Revelation%20of%20Daniel.htm
Here are two questions:
(Understanding the REVELATION)
"SETTING THE STAGE"
"The Masterpiece"
http://www.666man.net/457BC_WhyCorrect_444BC_Arguments.html
http://quicksitemaker.com/members/disciples/Daniel.html
ARE YOU DISTURBED YET?
Are you Getting the Picture?
Linda Lee
wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:06:39 -0700, Guardian Snowpheonix
>
LOL. That is how Paul saw himself, as the greatest apostle. ROFLOL. I
am surprised those who accept Paul's preaching also don't accept the
new 'revelation' given the Islamic 'prophet' Mohammed. Or Joseph Smith
who also got some new revelation after the death of the Messiah. We
don't need any of those false prophets; the Messiah accomplished his
mission and taught who he wanted to teach the message he wanted
preached. As he said on the cross: "It is finished". I guess the
Pauline worshippers assume they forgot to write down "It is finished",
'but soon I will send the greatest apostle of all - Paul - to give you
the real message'.
Linda Lee
>
LOL. That is how Paul saw himself, as the greatest apostle. ROFLOL. I
Linda Lee
>
LOL. That is how Paul saw himself, as the greatest apostle. ROFLOL. I
Qadosh Stephanos
wrote:
The tale of Joseph Smith is conveniently missing the golden tables.
The other tale of the Kobrin book is yet another facade of atheism.
It appear's there is a congenial effort to discredit God's reality.
Debra
>
> read more - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
When I sent that to you...I had no idea it would be
posted...Funny...This is the article that sealed it for me...My heart
just dropped into my stomache...After all the comparing of verses...
Paul to himself...Paul to the Messiah...and Paul to The Old
Testament...This just put the whole picture together in one sitting
for me.
Debra
Debra
>
> - Show quoted text -
When I first questioned Paul...It was him being hit by a bright light
that made him unbelievable because I realized...Same as Mohammed and
Joseph Smith...Hit by bright lights...I pointed that out for a while
to the people I was speaking to about it at the time.
Debra
Debra
wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:06:39 -0700, Guardian Snowpheonix
>
I like your poetry in pointing things out.
Debra
Guardian Snow
I think when Linda told me about Paul, I thought.. Yeah right... and I
figured, let's investigate the matter for myself and I started with
Galatians and Acts and compared the two.
I never would have believed it myself but then... It makes for a
really good story that would blow Ron Brown out of the water.
Qadosh Stephanos
wrote:
Poetry is regarded as atheism in our day and presence.
Although some atheist poets acknowledge God in a book.
Realty is God is the poet in the writings of prophets.
People are transformed at their age of responsibility.
Awaking is when God answers all your stupid questions.
Freedom is an ability to ask questions. Not Democracy.
Confusion is vocals of media yacking about nothing.
Disturbances are the people that come to your home.
They are those deluded people of TV and of YouTube.
Read The Bible
> smorgasbord of dual lies.
Paul taught no lies; he is a true apostle of Jesus
Christ (Acts 26:15-18).
> Qadosh said: The preachers of Paul contend with the
> law and 10 percent.
Jesus contended with the law (Matthew 5:31-48, John
8:5-11) and merely 10 percent (Luke 14:33).
> Qadosh said: They preach laws nullified then they
> preach about tithing.
They should just preach laws nullified (Hebrews
7:18-19).
> Qadosh said: They contend about 10 commandants
> which they never follow.
Christians are to follow the New Testament
commandments, not the abolished Old Testament
commandments (2 Corinthians 3:6-18).
> Qadosh said: They permit Paul's woman to teach,
> despite what Paul said.
Jesus commanded that women remain silent in church
meetings (1 Corinthians 14:34-37; compare 1 Timothy
2:11-15).
> Qadosh said: Painting pictures of the blond long
> haired Messiah.
The Bible doesn't say that Jesus was blonde or had
long hair.
> Qadosh said: Yet their Apostle Paul denounced long
> haired males.
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a
man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
(1 Corinthians 11:14).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Guardian Snow quoted a link on Oct 16, 8:13 pm:
> ANOTHER GOSPEL
Paul taught the same gospel that Jesus did (Luke
24:46-47; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
> Snow quoted: the "Abomination that makes desolate."
Is when the coming Antichrist will by military force
take over a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop
the animal sacrifices which the Jews had been
offering before it, and go into its Holy of Holies
and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew
24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).
> Snow quoted: (Deut 13:1-5)!
Paul in no way taught anyone to turn away from God or
to go after other gods; instead, he turned people
away from false gods to the one and only true God
(1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Corinthians 8:6).
> Snow quoted: A False Prophet (False Apostle) will
> arise
Paul was in no way a false prophet or a false
apostle; everything he taught was in perfect
accordance with what Jesus taught.
> Snow quoted: He will come in his own name (without
> two witnesses)
Paul had many more than two apostolic witnesses who
fully supported his ministry and everything that he
wrote (2 Peter 3:15-16, Acts 15:25-26).
> Snow quoted: he starts out as a persecuting power,
> suffers a deadly wound, then becomes a wondrous
> thing
Paul didn't suffer any deadly wound in his
conversion on the road to Damascus, and the coming
Antichrist will become a persecuting power after the
deadly wound is healed (Revelation 13:3,7).
> Snow quoted: Messiah's True Message of repentance
Paul always preached repentance (Acts 17:30, 20:21,
26:20, Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 12:21, 7:9-10;
2 Timothy 2:25; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians
5:19-21).
> Snow quoted: 1Jn 3:4: Sin is transgression of the
> Law
The Greek says "sin is the lawlessness"; Paul never
taught lawlessness (1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians
6:2), but taught the New Covenant law of Jesus (John
14:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:2; 1 Corinthians 14:37).
> Snow quoted: "Another Gospel" that Stands in the
> Place of Messiah's words.
Paul in no way taught another Gospel; he always
taught what Jesus taught. In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul was
referring to those who taught a different Gospel than
the Bible teaches (Luke 24:46-47; 1 Corinthians
15:1-4).
> Snow quoted: 2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan
> himself is transformed into an angel of light
Paul was in no way Satanic; instead, he turned people
away from Satan and to God (Acts 26:18). In the
context of 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul was referring to
those who taught a different Jesus than the Bible
teaches (2 Corinthians 11:3-4,13-15).
> Snow quoted: to overthrow the Father's KINGDOM!
After his conversion, Paul never taught or did
anything to overthrow the Father's kingdom; instead,
he always preached the Father's kingdom (Acts 14:22,
19:8, 20:25, 28:31; 1 Thessalonians 2:12, Ephesians
5:5, Galatians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
> Snow quoted: Why do you think Johns Letter was
> written to the Seven Churches?
Jesus' seven letters (Revelation Chapters 2-3) were
to seven first-century churches in seven cities in
the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:4,11),
which today is western Turkey. At the time Revelation
was written, John was on the island of Patmos
(Revelation 1:9) just off the coast of "Asia".
> Snow quoted: Rev 12:17
That refers to Christians keeping God's New Covenant
commandments (John 14:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:2;
1 Corinthians 14:37), not the abolished Old Covenant
commandments (Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19).
> Snow quoted: Matt 24:9
That refers to a future worldwide persecution of true
Christians by all nations.
> Snow quoted: Stephan preached his last Sermon on
> keeping the Law of YHWH.
Stephen didn't preach that anyone had to keep the
abolished Old Covenant commandments; the whole reason
he was arrested by the unbelieving Jews was precisely
because he was so forcefully preaching the exact
opposite.
> Snow quoted: DAN 12:12
That refers to how long Christians will have to wait
from the time the coming Antichrist commits the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12) until
Jesus returns; Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are
the same blessing, which will be given on the 1,290th
day after the abomination of desolation.
> Snow quoted: Acts 26:14 ... Why would Messiah
> Yahusha speak a Greek Proverb
Nothing requires that He was quoting anything; it
could have been a common image in ancient times of
doing something to your own hurt.
> Snow quoted: 1335 days after Messiah was cut off!
Daniel 12:12 doesn't refer to 1,335 days after the
crucifixion, but to 1,335 days after the coming
abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).
> Snow quoted: have you been led to believe it was
> Messiah who "fell like lightning" on the road to
> Damascus?
Nothing says that Jesus fell like lightning in His
appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus.
> Snow quoted: 2Cor 11:14
Paul wasn't calling Jesus Satan; Satan didn't appear
to Paul, Jesus did, as confirmed by a second witness
(Acts 9:17).
> Snow quoted: They stood / they fell
The Greek word translated as "stood" in Acts 9:7 can
mean "continue" (Acts 26:22), so Acts 26:14, 9:7
means that the men with Paul fell to the ground and
continued speechless.
> Snow quoted: they heard / they didn't hear
The Greek word translated as "heard" in Acts 22:9 can
mean "understandeth" (1 Corinthians 14:2), so Acts
9:7, 22:9 means that the men with Paul heard a voice
but they couldn't understand what it was saying.
> Snow quoted: they saw / they didn't see!
They saw the light (Acts 22:9), but saw no man (Acts
9:7).
Read The Bible
> you think its possible for Satan, to cause "A
> Murderer" to believe he will be doing the Father's
> will?
Paul murdered nobody after his conversion, and Jesus'
appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus turned
Paul away from his persecution of Christians. Jesus
had mercy on Paul for what Paul had done before his
conversion (1 Timothy 1:12-17).
Those who continue to hate our brother Paul are
unrepentant murderers (1 John 3:15); Satan could very
well convince people that hating a true brother, even
a true apostle, is doing the Father's will.
> Snow quoted: 2Thes 2:9
That refers to the coming Antichrist who will sit in
a rebuilt Jewish temple and proclaim himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:4-9), after which the whole world
will worship the dragon Satan and the Antichrist as
God (Revelation 13:4-6) even as they make war against
true Christians and imprison and kill them
(Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13). The Antichrist, or
the Beast, will have a miracle-working False Prophet
(Revelation 13:11-13) who will deceive the whole
world into worshipping a speaking image of the
Antichrist which people will have to worship or be
killed (Revelation 13:14-15). And the False Prophet
will deceive the whole world into receiving a mark on
their hand or their forehead connected with the
gematrial number of the Antichrist's name, 666
(Revelation 13:16-18). None of this has happened yet.
It could begin happening on December 21, 2012.
To vainly try to apply all of this to our faithful
brother Paul is only doing Satan's evil work, trying
to take attention off of the real Antichrist who is
coming. And to say that Paul's wonderful ministry was
Satanic is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit who worked so
mightily through Paul (Romans 15:19), for when
unbelieving Jews said that Jesus' wonderful ministry
was Satanic they likewise blasphemed the Holy Spirit
(Mark 3:22,29-30) who worked so mightily through
Jesus (Matthew 12:28).
> Snow quoted: BREAKING THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
Our brother Paul never broke the first commandment,
but always taught the love of God (Romans 8:28;
1 Corinthians 8:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:5; 2 Timothy
3:4).
> Snow quoted: Ezekiel 33:8-9
Paul always warned people against all wickedness
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21).
> Snow quoted: the thirteenth Apostle
Paul wasn't the thirteenth Apostle, for Jesus Himself
is the first Apostle (Hebrews 3:1), and the apostle
Barnabas (Acts 14:14) and the apostle James the
Lord's brother (Galatians 1:19) could have become
apostles before Paul.
> Snow quoted: Romans 3:7
There Paul was showing what people were slanderously
reporting that Paul was saying (Romans 3:8). How
sad that people today would try to use that to
continue to slander Paul.
> Snow quoted: Ezek 44:9
That was a conditional vision (Ezekiel 43:11) which
was never fulfilled, and now it never will be
fulfilled because it contains animal sacrifices for
sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:25), and Jesus' New Covenant one-
time human sacrifice for our sins (Matthew 26:28) has
completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant
animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).
> Snow quoted: What is the definition of blasphemy?
> Isn't it defined "Making oneself" equal to the
> almighty?
Paul never blasphemed God or made himself equal to
God.
> Snow quoted: Paul preached "Grace" and "Faith," not
> "Works."
Paul always preached works (Philippians 2:12,
Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:8,14, 2:14, 1:16; 2 Timothy
3:17, 2:21; 1 Timothy 6:18, 5:10, 2:10;
2 Thessalonians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Colossians
1:10,29, Galatians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 9:8;
1 Corinthians 15:58, Romans 2:10, Acts 26:20).
> Snow quoted: Saul went away to Arabia for three
> years (Gal 1:16-18).
Galatians 1:16-18 doesn't say that; it means that
Paul spent three years in Damascus after returning
from Arabia.
> Snow quoted: another gullible agent of mine,
> Anninias
Then no matter how many witnesses there are,
including the entire church (Acts 15:25-26) and the
apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), Paul-haters will
claim they are all the agents of Satan. And then the
Paul-haters have the gall to turn around and claim
"No witnesses support Paul!".
> Snow quoted: Your Gospel of Grace
It's Jesus' Gospel of Grace (John 1:17,16, 8:5-11;
Acts 4:33, James 4:6; 1 Peter 1:2,10, 4:10,
5:5,10,12, 3:7, 2:3; 2 Peter 1:2, 3:18; 2 John 1:3;
Revelation 1:4, 22:21; Acts 11:23, 15:11, Jude 1:4).
> Snow quoted: even though Peter thinks he was
> chosen, you will be given the power to confront him
> to his face, and blame him for not understanding
Peter did understand that the believing Gentiles
didn't have to be circumcised or keep the abolished
Mosaic law (Acts 15:5-11). Peter had even preached
this truth before to the believing Pharisees who had
confronted him to his face for keeping company with
uncircumcised Gentiles (Acts 11:2-18), for God
Himself had shown Peter this truth (Acts 10:15,28).
So Paul had every right to point out to Peter that
Peter was acting hypocritically in one particular
instance in Antioch when Peter temporarily refused
to keep company with uncircumcised believing Gentiles
just because Peter feared another confrontation with
those who continued to willfully reject the truth of
the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:11-16).
> Snow quoted: it will APPEAR that it is this same
> Peter who will agree your letters are scripture
Ah, so the Paul-haters reject any scripture such as
2 Peter 3:15-16 which contradicts their Satanic
lie. And then they have the gall to turn around and
say "No scriptures support Paul!".
> Snow quoted: Simon Peter Magus (the magician) will
> bind his words to your Testimony
2 Peter wasn't written by Simon (no "Peter") the
magician (Acts 8:9), but by "Simon Peter, a servant
and an apostle of Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1), the
same one who had witnessed the transfiguration
(2 Peter 1:16-18), and who had written 1 Peter
(2 Peter 3:1-2).
> Snow quoted: I give you the authority to blind and
> curse those who do not agree with you, and if
> necessary, turn them over for destruction to have
> them killed.
The apostle Paul didn't turn anyone over to be
killed, but only to be punished by excommunication
(2 Corinthians 2:6-9), even though apostles had the
authority from Jesus to judge people (John 20:23)
and even though people were killed by God after they
had been judged by the apostle Peter (Acts 5:3-11).
> Snow quoted: If we don't "HEED" the Father's
> Commandment, to kill the False Prophet
Ah, so the Paul-haters want to kill people who do not
agree with them. And then they have the gall to turn
around and claim, "Paul killed people who didn't
agree with him!".
> Snow quoted: Why didn't Messiah tell the true
> Apostles "I've changed the message I gave to you"?
Because there was no change. Paul taught what Jesus
taught.
> Snow quoted: What Spirit would try to cast the Law
> down?
God Himself said that the New Covenant would not be
according to the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
> Snow quoted: "It's by faith."
As it was with Abraham (Genesis 15:6) and all others
who were righteous in the Old Testament (Habakkuk
2:4). Jesus Himself said that the salvation He
brought was by faith (John 3:16-18), and John the
Baptist confirmed that truth (John 3:36), just as
did the apostles (1 John 3:23, 5:1,13; 1 Peter 1:9,
2:6-7, 5:9; 2 Peter 1:1,5, Jude 1:3,5,20).
> Snow quoted: Rom 2:13
That is referring to the true heart of the Old
Covenant law as taught by Jesus (Matthew 7:12) and
confirmed by Paul (Galatians 5:14, Romans 3:31); it
is the New Covenant law of Christ (Galatians 6:2,
John 15:12; 1 John 3:11,23, 4:7,11-12; 2 John 1:5;
1 Peter 1:22, 3:8). How sad that some would reject
the very heart of the Old Covenant law and the New
Covenant law of Christ, so that they might feel
justified in their murderous hatred for our beloved
brother Paul (1 John 3:15; 2 Peter 3:15-16, Acts
15:25-26).
Guardian Snow
> > Guardian Snow quoted a link on Oct 16, 8:13 pm: do
> > you think its possible for Satan, to cause "A
> > Murderer" to believe he will be doing the Father's
> > will?
>
> Paul murdered nobody after his conversion, and Jesus'
> appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus turned
> Paul away from his persecution of Christians. Jesus
> had mercy on Paul for what Paul had done before his
> conversion (1 Timothy 1:12-17).
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
How do you think he delivered men to Satan?
Read The Bible
> wicked?
Of course, or none of us would be justified (Matthew
18:11, 9:13, 26:28, Romans 5:6-11).
> Snow quoted: Ex 23:7 ... Prov 17:15
Those refer to the unrepentant, not to the repentant
(Ezekiel 33:11).
> Snow quoted: If you believe what Paul says, that
> would mean the Father Himself would be an
> Abomination
Rather, if one would believe what the Bible says in
both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that
would mean that the Father Himself is one merciful
God (Psalms 51, Luke 6:36; 1 Peter 1:3, 2:10;
2 John 1:3, Jude 1:2,21).
> Snow quoted: 2Cor 12:16
The context shows clearly that Paul was using irony
to point out that he had not deceived or harmed the
Corinthians in any way.
> Snow quoted: 2Cor 11:8
Paul was using hyperbole, as the same verse clearly
shows that what he took from the churches was his
wages for ministering to them.
> Snow quoted: Did Daniel say he would boast?
Paul never boasted in himself, but always said it was
God who did through him any good things that he did,
as in 1 Corinthians 15:10. See also 2 Corinthians
10:17-18.
> Snow quoted: Gal 5:14
That's what Jesus Himself taught (Matthew 7:12).
> Snow quoted: Gal 4:14
Again, that's what Jesus Himself taught (Matthew
10:40, John 13:20).
> Snow quoted: [they say] All You Have To Do is
> Believe!
Jesus Himself sometimes emphasized belief alone
(John 6:28-29, 3:16), as did the apostles (1 Peter
1:9; 1 John 5:13).
> Snow quoted: [they say] IT'S BY THE BLOOD!
Of course it is; that's what Jesus Himself taught
(Matthew 26:28), as did the apostles (1 John 1:7,
Revelation 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2,19).
> Snow quoted: Show me one place where Messiah
> himself used the word "Grace."
His actions spoke grace louder than any word (John
8:5-11; compare John 1:17,16,14).
> Snow quoted: what is the true criteria for the
> title "Apostle"?
Being sent by Jesus: "I send (apostello) thee" (Acts
26:17).
> Snow quoted: one must have walked with Messiah from
> the baptism of John, been ordained, and witnessed
> the Resurrection!
That was the requirement to be one of the twelve
apostles (Acts 1:21-26), not to be an apostle at all,
like the apostle Barnabas (Acts 14:14,4) or the
apostle James the Lord's brother (Galatians 1:19).
And the apostle Paul was a witness of Jesus'
resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:4-10, 9:1).
> Snow quoted: REV 2:2
That's referring to false apostles which came to
Ephesus after Paul left there (Acts 20:29-30).
Paul was a true apostle (Acts 26:17-18) beloved by
the Ephesians (Acts 20:37-38).
> Snow quoted: 2Tim 1:15
That's referring to how everyone forsook Paul during
his trial before Caesar in Rome (2 Timothy 4:16).
They did so not for any doctrinal reasons, but out
of fear for their own lives, just as everyone forsook
Jesus Himself (Mark 14:50) when He was arrested.
> Snow quoted: Rom 2:16
That means that, according to the gospel preached by
Jesus (John 5:22) and by Paul (2 Timothy 4:1), God
shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.
> Snow quoted: Rom 16:25 ... I thought it was
> Messiah's Gospel we were supposed to hear.
Paul made very clear that the gospel preached by him
was Messiah's Gospel (Galatians 1:12,6-9).
> Snow quoted: Torah is the only thing that Messiah
> taught and did
Messiah taught and did some things contrary to the
Torah (Matthew 5:31-48, 19:7-9, John 8:5-11), and He
supported the apostles when they broke the Sabbath
in Matthew 12:1-8.
> Snow quoted: Phil [3:17] ... Doesn't Revelation
> 14:11 talk about taking "The Mark" of the Beast?
Philippians 3:17 uses a completely different word in
Greek than Revelation 14:11, one with a completely
different meaning; the "mark" in Philippians 3:17 is
the Greek verb "skopeo" which means to "regard",
while the "mark" in Revelation 14:11 is the Greek
noun "charagma" which means "a scratch or etching".
The English word "scarify" is similarly defined as
"to make scratches or small cuts in (as the skin)"
(Webster's), so that the mark of the Antichrist could
be made through scarification; it could be carved
into one's hand or forehead with a knife, leaving an
indelible scar.
> Snow quoted: Rev 13:3
That isn't referring to Paul because the whole world
has never wondered after Paul about anything, not
even Acts 14:19-20. Revelation 13:3 is referring to
the Antichrist who, after the deadly wound is healed,
will rule all nations for 42 months (Revelation
13:5-7).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Linda Lee said on Oct 17, 9:55 am: That is how Paul
> saw himself, as the greatest apostle.
Paul didn't see himself as the greatest apostle, "For
I am the least of the apostles" (1 Corinthians 15:9).
> Linda said: I am surprised those who accept Paul's
> preaching also don't accept the new 'revelation'
> given the Islamic ...
Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our
sins and rose from the dead on the third day, so it
preaches another gospel than Jesus and Paul preached
(Luke 24:46-47; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4); and Paul
expressly warned us against any other gospels, even
those which are claimed to have come through an angel
(Galatians 1:6-9).
> Linda said: "It is finished".
Jesus' first-coming work was finished (John 17:4) on
the cross (John 19:30), but the preaching of His
gospel wasn't finished, for it had to reach all the
nations on the earth (Matthew 24:14, 28:19-20), and
the apostle Paul played a big part in spreading the
gospel of Jesus Christ to other nations (Romans
15:19).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Debra said on Oct 19, 11:59 am: comparing of
> verses... Paul to himself...Paul to the Messiah...
> and Paul to The Old Testament...
Paul nowhere contradicts himself, the Messiah, or
the Old Testament.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 20, 5:45 am: I started
> with Galatians and Acts and compared the two.
There is no contradiction between Galatians and Acts.
Guardian Snow
> Guardian Snow quoted a link on Oct 16, 8:13 pm
Brother, I'm guessing that right about now, you think I don't believe
in the Messiah or the NT church. Your wrong about that and I respect
that you want to defend your bible as all of it being "inspired
writings". The reason that your posting like this is because you
break the laws of Elohim and you do so willfully and will not repent
of your sin. You have come to love Paul as your Messiah and not
Elohim because you hate them and the system they represent. Paul and
Hebrews abolished all that just as the prophets said they would.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times
and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
and the dividing of time.
The fact is my friend, the laws are not changed and the Sabbath does
still stand, regardless of your Messiah that you glorify as God.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.
> > Rom 4:5 ... Does the father really justify the
> > wicked?
>
> Of course, or none of us would be justified (Matthew
> 18:11, 9:13, 26:28, Romans 5:6-11).
Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that
offenses will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about
his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of
these little ones.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against
thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and
seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt
forgive him.
> > Snow quoted: Ex 23:7 ... Prov 17:15
>
> Those refer to the unrepentant, not to the repentant
> (Ezekiel 33:11).
>
> > Snow quoted: If you believe what Paul says, that
> > would mean the Father Himself would be an
> > Abomination
>
> Rather, if one would believe what the Bible says in
> both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that
> would mean that the Father Himself is one merciful
> God (Psalms 51, Luke 6:36; 1 Peter 1:3, 2:10;
> 2 John 1:3, Jude 1:2,21).
Amen, which is why he sent his son to call us to repentance and to
OBEY his commandments.
> > Snow quoted: 2Cor 12:16
>
> The context shows clearly that Paul was using irony
> to point out that he had not deceived or harmed the
> Corinthians in any way.
You call it Irony that he deceived you into believing he is repentant
when he delivers men to Satan.
> There is no contradiction between Galatians and Acts.
There are so many contradictions, I'm not going to waste my time
telling somebody that wishes to believe the lies, except one.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and
Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the
heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same
which I also was forward to do.
First off, in chapter one he says that he only saw James and then
refutes himself in chapter 2.
But what did they tell him.. those who "seemed to be pillars"... a
noticed slam on the apostles of Jesus?
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear
the word of the gospel, and believe.
First off, that the gentiles were to receive the gospel from PETER.
Then...
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled,
and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
To follow dietary restrictions, abstain from fornication and blood.
Also, to preach Moses on the Sabbath.
A part of scriptures that you would love to gloss over and say doesn't
exist but it's there. Of course I know you'll ignore this and go on
believing brother Lucifer's lies that have weakened the nations but
it's really to your own peril.
Another little thing that you in the church of Babylon like to look
over is the fact that Peter warns you against your false liberty that
Paul preached.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the
servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is
he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world
through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are
again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with
them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb,
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed
to her wallowing in the mire.
Most of you don't even realize that the entire second letter of Peter
is about the false teachings of Paul. What did Paul say about
fornication?
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,
and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles,
that one should have his father's wife.
Now, I know on other occasions he says to flee fornication... but
thats because he is double minded.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the
friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will
be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Grace is not some gift that is given to anybody that has faith.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Don't follow after a double minded man like Paul. He is the son of the
father of lies.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of
the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You must show your faith in your works towards the will of the Father,
just as Abraham did.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my
commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
With Respect,
Snow
Read The Bible
> think he delivered men to Satan?
Not by murdering them, but by excommunicating them
(1 Corinthians 5:13). The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 1 Corinthians 5:5 can simply mean
"punishment"; the man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 was
punished by excommunication, and then received back
into fellowship after his repentance (2 Corinthians
2:6-9).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 21, 6:51 am: the laws of
> Elohim
The New Covenant laws of Elohiym are not according
to the Old Covenant laws of Elohiym (Jeremiah
31:31-32; Matthew 5:31-44, 19:7-9, John 8:5-11,
1:17).
> Snow said: Paul as your Messiah
Paul isn't the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth is (John
1:41, 4:25-26); Paul said that he was merely an
apostolic servant of Messiah (Romans 1:1), and the
very least of them (1 Corinthians 15:9).
> Snow said: Dan 7:25
That refers to the coming Antichrist who will begin
his career on the world stage by taking control over
3 of 10 countries descended from the former Roman
empire (Daniel 7:23-24). He could come out of Lebanon
and take over a Baathist confederation of Iraq,
Syria, and Egypt put together by an Iraqi predecessor
by force of arms (Daniel 11:13-19). Daniel 7:25
refers to the Antichrist's subsequent taking control
over all nations for 3 1/2 years, or 42 months,
during which time he will be worshipped by everyone
in the whole world and make war against Christians
and imprison and kill them (Revelation 13:5-10,
14:12-13). Revelation was written by John in the
90's AD, and what it describes in Revelation Chapters
6-22 was to happen after that time (Revelation 4:1);
it still hasn't happened yet. Revelation 13, Daniel
7:23-25, 11:21-45 have never been fulfilled; they
will be fulfilled by the coming Antichrist. He could
possibly take over the 3 countries as early as 2009,
and begin his 42-month world-rule on December 21,
2012.
> Snow said: the Sabbath does still stand
Not the one-day-a-week Old Covenant Sabbath rest; it
was abolished with all the rest of the commandments
engraved in stone, and replaced with something far
better (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), an every-day-of-the-
week New Covenant Sabbath rest whereby Christians
cease from their own works every day (Hebrews 4:10)
and pick up their cross and follow Messiah every day
(Luke 9:23), for now every minute of our lives must
be for Messiah who died for us (2 Corinthians 5:15),
not just a mere one day a week.
> Snow said: Gal 1:24
That means people glorified God for converting a
persecutor into a preacher, just as Paul himself
glorified God for doing that (1 Timothy 1:12-17).
> Snow said: Luk 17:2
That refers to the unrepentant (Luke 13:3), not to
the repentant (Ezekiel 18:32, 33:11).
> Snow said: he sent his son to call us to repentance
> and to OBEY his commandments.
Christians are called to obey Messiah's New Covenant
commandments (John 14:15, 15:12; 1 John 3:11,23),
which, if we obey them, cause us to not only fulfill
the old law and the prophets (Matthew 7:12, Galatians
5:14, Romans 3:31), but to even far exceed them
(Matthew 5:20-28; 2 Corinthians 3:9-18).
> Snow said: [Re: There is no contradiction between
> Galatians and Acts.]
> There are so many contradictions
There isn't one.
> Snow said: in chapter one he says that he only saw
> James and then refutes himself in chapter 2.
He doesn't, for he is referring to two completely
separate visits to the apostles. In chapter 1 he
says he saw Peter and James at his first visit to
the apostles three years after his conversion
(Galatians 1:18-19); in chapter 2 he specifically
says "fourteen years after I went up again to
Jerusalem" (Galatians 2:1), at which time he saw
James, Peter, and John, and received their
confirmation of his apostolic ministry to the
Gentiles (Galatians 2:9).
> Snow said: those who "seemed to be pillars"... a
> noticed slam on the apostles of Jesus?
The Greek word translated as "seemed" doesn't have
to be a slam at all, for it doesn't have to refer to
uncertainty, but can refer to things certainly, as
it's used in Acts 15:28. And even if Galatians 2:9
did mean uncertainty, it still wouldn't have to be
a slam, any more than 1 Peter 5:12 was a slam. It
could just be a way of saying that only God can truly
perceive the current spiritual health of people 100%
accurately, and that we shouldn't glibly make certain
pronouncements about people we don't yet know that
well.
> Snow said: the gentiles were to receive the gospel
> from PETER.
They were to receive it first from Peter; Acts 15:7-8
is referring to the first reception of the gospel and
the Holy Spirit by uncircumcised Gentiles back in
Acts 10:28-48. But after that, Peter focused on Jews
while Paul focused on Gentiles (Galatians 2:8-9).
Messiah had purposely converted Paul to be an apostle
to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17-18).
> Snow said: Act 15:21
That isn't included in the agreement reached by the
whole church and the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:22-29.
> Snow said: To follow dietary restrictions, abstain
> from fornication and blood.
Paul never contradicted Acts 15:29, but even taught
some of the same things himself in his letters
(1 Corinthians 10:21, 6:18). And Paul also taught in
accordance with Acts 15:24, which says specifically
that believing Gentiles don't have to be circumcised
or keep the law of Moses.
> Snow said: false liberty that Paul preached.
Paul never preached any false liberty, but always
preached against sins in great detail (1 Corinthians
6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Romans 1:24-32).
> Snow said: 2Pe 2:19
That isn't referring to Paul at all, for just a
little later Peter confirms Paul's ministry and says
that all of Paul's letters are scripture (2 Peter
3:15-16).
> Snow said: 1Co 5:1
Paul condemned every type of fornication, not just
that type (1 Corinthians 6:15-20).
> Snow said: he is double minded.
Paul is in no way double minded (2 Corinthians
1:17-18).
> Snow said: Jas 4:4
Paul was far from being a friend of the unbelieving
world; that's why the unbelieving world wanted him
dead (Acts 14:19) or locked away (Acts 16:19-24) or
thrown out of town after town (Acts 17:5-15, compare
Matthew 23:34).
> Snow said: Jas 2:17
Paul totally agreed with that (Titus 1:16,
Philippians 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:3). So often the
Paul-haters hate a straw-man Paul who never existed,
but who was invented by those who are ignorant of or
who choose to willfully ignore what Paul actually
taught.
> Snow said: He is the son of the father of lies.
Rather, those who hate Paul often hate him because of
lies invented about him, some quite elaborate, but
without any scriptural foundation whatsoever.
Paul is a true apostle of Messiah (Acts 26:16-18).
Guardian Snow
> Not by murdering them, but by excommunicating them
> (1 Corinthians 5:13). The Greek word translated as
> "destruction" in 1 Corinthians 5:5 can simply mean
> "punishment"; the man in 1 Corinthians 5:5 was
> punished by excommunication, and then received back
> into fellowship after his repentance (2 Corinthians
> 2:6-9).
Unfortunately, you have no proof of this statement and the passages
you gave mention nothing of taking anybody back. Also,
excommunication is not biblical and it is not a word in scriptures.
While you can believe that, you can't show any proof but delivering
men to Satan certainly sounds like spiritual death to me. I would add
to that this goes against the teachings of Yeshua, who came for
sinners.
Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house,
behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his
disciples.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy,
and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but
sinners to repentance.
> The New Covenant laws of Elohiym are not according
> to the Old Covenant laws of Elohiym (Jeremiah
> 31:31-32; Matthew 5:31-44, 19:7-9, John 8:5-11,
> 1:17).
Yes, they are.
Jer 31:33 "For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of
Yisra' l after those days, declares Yahweh : I shall put My Torah
in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be
their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand
before Me," declares Yahweh , "so your seed and your name shall
stand.
Isa 66:23 "And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from
Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,"
declares Yahweh .
> > Snow said: Paul as your Messiah
>
> Paul isn't the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth is (John
> 1:41, 4:25-26); Paul said that he was merely an
> apostolic servant of Messiah (Romans 1:1), and the
> very least of them (1 Corinthians 15:9).
He is to those who believe his words.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my
strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I
rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon
me.
> > Snow said: Dan 7:25
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times
and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
and the dividing of time.
(clip) absolute rubbish. Times have already been divided and Paul
already speaks against the most high, you have already thought to
change the laws of Elohim with your faulty propaganda from your Roman
Catholic Church masters.
If this were not the case then you would acknowledge the laws and keep
the Sabbath and you are too blind to see this simple truth brother. I
am not putting you down but stating a clear spoken fact.
>
> > Snow said: the Sabbath does still stand
>
> Not the one-day-a-week Old Covenant Sabbath rest; it
> was abolished with all the rest of the commandments
> engraved in stone, and replaced with something far
> better
Here you acknowledged what I just told you about Daniel and then you
follow with the the false words of your false Messiah Lucifer to back
it up just as Isaiah also prophesied you would.
(2 Corinthians 3:6-18), an every-day-of-the-
> week New Covenant Sabbath rest whereby Christians
> cease from their own works every day (Hebrews 4:10)
, for now every minute of our lives must
> be for Messiah who died for us (2 Corinthians 5:15),
> not just a mere one day a week.
>
> > Snow said: Gal 1:24
>
> That means people glorified God for converting a
> persecutor into a preacher, just as Paul himself
> glorified God for doing that (1 Timothy 1:12-17).
>
> > Snow said: Luk 17:2
>
> That refers to the unrepentant (Luke 13:3), not to
> the repentant (Ezekiel 18:32, 33:11).
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and
seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt
forgive him.
You continue to justify breaking the laws of Elohim and you continue
to be unrepentant and because you hate Elohim and the Messiah, you
ignore both of them.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
> > Snow said: he sent his son to call us to repentance
> > and to OBEY his commandments.
>
> Christians are called to obey Messiah's New Covenant
> commandments (John 14:15, 15:12; 1 John 3:11,23),
Which are summaries of the first Ten only. Read the verse I just
posted.
> which, if we obey them, cause us to not only fulfill
> the old law and the prophets (Matthew 7:12, Galatians
> 5:14, Romans 3:31), but to even far exceed them
> (Matthew 5:20-28; 2 Corinthians 3:9-18).
Your mixing lies with truth and I have addressed this. Faith alone
won't save you.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
> > Snow said: [Re: There is no contradiction between
Guardian Snow
> There isn't one.
>
> > Snow said: in chapter one he says that he only saw
> > James and then refutes himself in chapter 2.
>
> He doesn't, for he is referring to two completely
> separate visits to the apostles. In chapter 1 he
> says he saw Peter and James at his first visit to
> the apostles three years after his conversion
> (Galatians 1:18-19); in chapter 2 he specifically
> says "fourteen years after I went up again to
> Jerusalem" (Galatians 2:1), at which time he saw
> James, Peter, and John, and received their
> confirmation of his apostolic ministry to the
> Gentiles (Galatians 2:9).
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, .. that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word
of the gospel, and believe.
Not was he told that the gospel was to be heard by the mouth of Peter
and ignore it but when they sent escorts with him, he left them behind
to go where he was unknown.
Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judea which
were in Christ:
> > Snow said: those who "seemed to be pillars"... a
> > noticed slam on the apostles of Jesus?
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed.
Of course when he's out of site he takes the opportunity to lie about
the head of the Messiah's church also.
> > Snow said: the gentiles were to receive the gospel
> > from PETER.
>
> They were to receive it first from Peter; Acts 15:7-8
> is referring to the first reception of the gospel and
> the Holy Spirit by uncircumcised Gentiles back in
> Acts 10:28-48. But after that, Peter focused on Jews
> while Paul focused on Gentiles (Galatians 2:8-9).
> Messiah had purposely converted Paul to be an apostle
> to the Gentiles (Acts 26:17-18).
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered
throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
look at that.. a letter to Galatia and Asia "another gospel" not to
the Hebrews. We know that Paul/Lucifer/Your Messiah is cursing Peter.
> > Snow said: Act 15:21
>
> That isn't included in the agreement reached by the
> whole church and the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:22-29.
It's repeated
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to
send chosen men unto you WITH our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from
blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if
ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the
decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders
which were at Jerusalem.
Not only that but Mr Gospel of Uncircumcised perform a one.. because
they made him contrary to the lies he tells the rest of the world
about not getting it.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and
circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for
they knew all that his father was a Greek.
> Rather, those who hate Paul often hate him because of
> lies invented about him, some quite elaborate, but
> without any scriptural foundation whatsoever.
>
> Paul is a true apostle of Messiah (Acts 26:16-18).
Go and bow down and worship your false God already.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.
The fact is you look for reasons not to obey the Law because you hate
God and the system he made but... do you really think he would have
destroyed his chosen people only to say.. Oh, it was all a big joke..
you can have grace and salvation for nothing now because I'm giving it
as liberally to all who believe?
No.. He didn't and you are kidding yourself only.
Guardian Snow
Here Ye, Here Ye, that court is now open.
The Law establishes you must have two witnesses to establish a matter.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any
iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of
two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be
established.
I elect to prosecute Paul for heresy against Elohim and his Laws.
The fist case before the court, is the Law (Torah of Elohim) and his
commandments to be followed?
Present the witnesses.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This
is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye
should walk in it.
1 witness John
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in
the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
2 Witnesses Messiah in Matthew.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of
God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what
shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is
good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father
and thy mother.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is
that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and
I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even
as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered unto them.
3 Witness PETER, the rock of the church of the Messiah.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may
have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates
into the city.
Late entry, James.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show
me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my
works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the
devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is
dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had
offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Are there any witnesses besides Paul and Hebrews (all his books count
as one witness) that are against keeping the commandments, please
rise! The case for has 4 witness including all four gospels, Peter and
John, James stand in keeping the Commandments.
The Law is repeated, do we have a witness? Who will testify against
the Set Apart Sabbath of Elohim?
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any
iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of
Guardian Snow
Paul is on trial, who will defend him? Please rise and post his
defense.
Abrams1117
Peter and Luke
>Please rise and post his defense.-
Acts 13:
9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost,
set his eyes on him.
10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of
the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to
pervert the right ways of the Lord?
2 Peter 3:
003:015 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given
unto him hath written unto you;
003:016 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction.
003:017 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before,
beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall
from your own stedfastness.
Interesting.....
O full of all subtilty and all MISCHIEF, thou CHILD OF THE DEVIL,
thou ENEMY of all righteousness, wilt
thou not cease TO PREVERT the RIGHT ways of the Lord?
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in
which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE wrest, as they do also the
other scriptures,
unto THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know
these things before, beware lest
ye also, being LED AWAY with the ERROR of THE WICKED, fall from your
own stedfastness.
Guardian Snow
Abrams1117 wrote:
Sorry councilor, while your statements regarding the defendants poor
character are witnessed and acknowledge in this trial, the issue at
hand is whether or not you are required to obey the Ten Commandments.
We also add this translation to the record,
2Pe 3:15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also
our beloved brother Sha'ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given
to him,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these
matters, in which some are hard to understand,1 which those who are
untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also
the other Scriptures. Footnote: 1See 1 Cor. 11:6.
2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you
also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
delusion of the lawless,
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and
Saviour Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that
abides. Am n.
It is recognized that the supposed Apostle is only acknowledge as
"brother" in both accounts and that it is a warning in both accounts.
Steadfastness is another word for faith and it is acknowledge that the
warning is that the believer will be deceived and fall away.
It is open for debate that this is a warning to except his gospel or
contrary to your opinion that those who are unlearned and unstable
should avoid it due possibly being led from the truth.
It is would as please to note that the topic of "unlearned and
unstable" would be the Torah and the writings of the prophets, which
the reader is advised to head first being the starting topic of this
chapter.
2Pe 3:1 This is now, beloved ones, the second letter I write to you,
in which I stir up your sincere mind, to remember
2Pe 3:2 the words previously spoken by the set-apart prophets, and of
the command of the Master and Saviour, spoken by your emissaries,
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both
which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before
by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the
Lord and Savior:
The issue at hand again, the Ten Commandments that the modern church
has revoked using the writings of Paul. To this it is noted that
keeping the Sabbath is one of those commandments.
By law, you are required to have at least two or three witnesses to
establish the matter.
Can the defense provide this?
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any
iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of
two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be
established.
Humble Regards,
Snow
Abrams1117
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If these verses are from Peter and Luke they defend Paul and curse
you.
Guardian Snow
Only if you can establish the change in law and you need two witnesses
to do that.
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them,
lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them
from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.
Neh 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against
thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which
testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great
provocations.
Jer 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle
the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the
prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not
profit.
Jer 2:9 Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with
your children's children will I plead.
Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against
Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel
from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite
him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.
Lam 2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and
broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the
law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.
Eze 7:26 Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumor shall be upon
rumor; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall
perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients.
Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they
should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent
in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath
from the LORD of hosts.
Abrams1117
No 'change in Law' is necessary.
Did Almighty G-D inspire those books or not?
If HE DID inspire those books those verses clearly show that it is
YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING of what Paul taught that is causing you trouble.
If HE DID NOT inspire them then that book(s) is NOT INSPIRED.
YOU MUST REJECT every book not inspired by Almighty G-D. There are
hundreds and they have NO AUTHORITY.
* Just as 1 John5:7 WAS ADDED much later and has NO AUTHORITY.
This is the New Testament:
Matthew, Mark, Luke ,John ,Acts , Romans ,I Corinthians ,II
Corinthians ,Galatians ,Ephesians ,Philippians ,Colossians ,I
Thessalonians ,II Thessalonians ,I Timothy ,II
Timothy ,Titus ,Philemon ,Hebrews ,James ,I Peter ,II Peter ,I
John ,II John ,III John ,Jude, Revelation
YOUR ENTIRE New Testament was written by:
Matthew, Mark, John, James and Jude.
* Unless, you also have problems w/one or some of them, too. Then you
can shorten the list.
Guardian Snow
So, you ignore the entire old testament and everybody except Paul and
Hebrews and then say, I have faith in God. The fact is you can't
establish it outside of Paul and so you are left with you soul hanging
in the balance of scales along with your false apostle. How do we
know for an absolute fact he is not an apostle?
2Co 12:9 ... that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
He claimed the POWER OF CHRIST, the son of Elohim.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in
necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake
He takes pleasure in your suffering.
1Th 2:6 ... when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of
Christ.
The apostles of Christ placed a "burden" on them.
2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
crafty, I caught you with guile.
Jeremiah spoke about the burden of the prophets,
Jer 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall
ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say
unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people,
that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man
and his house.
Jer 23:35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbor, and every one
to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD
spoken?
Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for
every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words
of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
Jer 23:37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD
answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
Jer 23:38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus
saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and
I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the
LORD;
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and
I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and
cast you out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a
perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
You love and worship a false prophet and have forgotten the burden of
Yeshua.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Guardian Snow
Paul is on trial, who will defend him?
Read The Bible
> you gave mention nothing of taking anybody back.
2 Corinthians 2:6-9 does refer to the Corinthians
taking back the man excommunicated in 1 Corinthians
5:13, after his repentance.
> Snow said: excommunication is not biblical
It is (Matthew 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:11).
> Snow said: it is not a word in scriptures.
Neither is "biblical".
> Snow said: delivering men to Satan certainly sounds
> like spiritual death to me.
The scripture is not of any private interpretation
(2 Peter 1:20).
> Snow said: this goes against the teachings of
> Yeshua
It doesn't (John 20:23).
> Snow said: Yeshua, who came for sinners.
-For those who would repent (Luke 13:3).
> Snow said: Mat 9:13
Keyword repentance (Luke 13:5).
> Snow said: Jer 31:33
That refers to the New Covenant Torah of Yeshua
(John 14:15, 15:12, Galatians 6:2), not the Old
Covenant Torah abolished on the cross (Ephesians
2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19). The New Covenant Torah is
"not according to" the Old Covenant Torah (Jeremiah
31:31-32), as Yeshua make quite plain (John 8:5-11,
Matthew 5:31-44, 19:7-9).
> Snow said: Isa 66:23
That refers to a New Earth Sabbath, not the Old
Covenant Sabbath which will not even be remembered
(Isaiah 65:17).
> Snow said: 2Co 12:9
That doesn't say that Paul is Messiah, but that the
power of Messiah rested upon him, just as it rested
upon all of the other apostles (Acts 4:33).
> Snow said: Times have already been divided
Daniel 7:25 hasn't been fulfilled yet; it won't be
fulfilled until after Daniel 7:23-24 is fulfilled.
The "dividing of time" refers to half a year, for the
coming Antichrist will rule the whole world for
three and a half years (Daniel 12:7, Revelation
13:5-8).
> Snow said: Paul already speaks against the most
> high
He never does.
> Snow said: you have already thought to change the
> laws of Elohim
No, only God can do that (Matthew 12:1-8, Daniel
2:21).
> Snow said: your faulty propaganda from your Roman
> Catholic Church masters.
Those "masters" fell from power during the
Reformation by the power of scripture alone.
> Snow said: Rev 14:12
That refers to the New Covenant commandments of God
through Yeshua (John 14:21; 1 John 2:2-3, 3:23-24,
Acts 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 4:2; 1 Corinthians 14:37).
> Snow said: Which are summaries of the first Ten
> only.
Nay, which are the same as Leviticus 19:18 only
(Matthew 7:12, Galatians 5:14).
> Snow said: Jas 2:17
Paul agrees (Titus 1:16).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 22, 8:26 am: Act 15:7
Right, no circumcision or Mosaic-law keeping involved
(Acts 15:8-11).
> Snow said: Gal 2:11
A momentary lapse by Peter from the truth he had been
shown by God (Acts 10:15,28-47) and had even boldly
preached to others who were wrongly hung up on
circumcision (Acts 11:2-18).
> Snow said: the head of the Messiah's church
Is only Messiah Himself (Colossians 1:18, Ephesians
1:22, 5:23). His servant the apostle Peter, like all
other men besides Messiah, was not infallible in his
actions (Matthew 26:34). Only the Roman Catholic
"masters" would have you believe that Peter was the
head of the church and was infallible in his actions.
> Snow said: Paul ... is cursing Peter.
Never. Paul fully supported Peter's apostleship
(Galatians 2:8). Galatians 1:6-9 is referring to
those who taught gospels which denied the Gospel of
Messiah, which Peter never did; he always taught the
true Gospel (1 Peter 1:2-5; compare 1 Corinthians
15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47).
> Snow said: [Re: Acts 15:21] It's repeated
It isn't (Acts 15:22-29).
> Snow said: Act 16:3
That wasn't done with the false idea that one must
obey the Old Covenant to be saved (Galatians 5:2-4),
but simply so that Timothy would be allowed entry
into the synagogues with Paul.
> Snow said: Gal 1:24
That doesn't say they glorified Paul, but that they
glorified God for His miraculous work in Paul,
converting Paul from someone who was killing those
who preached faith in Messiah to someone who was
now preaching that very same faith.
> Snow said: do you really think he would have
> destroyed his chosen people only to say.. Oh, it
> was all a big joke.. you can have grace and
> salvation for nothing now because I'm giving it as
> liberally to all who believe?
While it's given liberally (Romans 5:8-11), it's not
given for nothing, but demands everything we have
(Luke 14:33), every minute of our lives
(2 Corinthians 5:15, Luke 9:23), our very life itself
(Matthew 10:39). God destroyed His Old Covenant
chosen people because of their unrepentant sin, just
as He will destroy His New Covenant chosen people if
they do not repentant from their sin
(1 Corinthians 10:5-14, Hebrews 10:26-31).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 22, 9:53 am: Mat 5:19
That's referring to Messiah's New Covenant
commandments in Matthew 5:21-7:29, which exceed the
Old Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:20).
> Snow said: Mat 19:17
The man being addressed was still under the Old
Covenant commandments because Messiah had not yet
abolished them on the cross (Colossians 2:14) and
instituted His New Covenant commandments with the
shedding of His blood unto death (Matthew 26:28,
Hebrews 9:16).
> Snow said: PETER, the rock of the church
Only Messiah is the rock of the church (Matthew
21:42,44, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4-8, Ephesians 2:20,
Romans 9:33; 1 Corinthians 10:4, Psalms 31:3, 42:9,
62:2,6,7, 95:1; Deuteronomy 32:4,15,18,30,31;
1 Samuel 2:2, 22:2; 2 Samuel 22:32,47, 23:3, Isaiah
17:10). Only the Roman Catholic "masters" would have
you believe that Peter is the rock of the church.
> Snow said: Are there any witnesses besides Paul and
> Hebrews (all his books count as one witness) that
> are against keeping the commandments
Hebrews wasn't written by Paul, nor was the writer of
Hebrews or Paul against keeping the new commandments
of Messiah (1 Thessalonians 4:2, Hebrews 8:6-13,
7:12,18-19), which replaced the old commandments of
Moses (John 1:17, 8:5-11, Matthew 19:7-9, 5:31-44).
> Snow said: all four gospels, Peter and John, James
> stand in keeping the Commandments.
None of them say that Christians after the cross have
to keep the old commandments of Moses (Galatians
2:21).
Guardian Snow
> > Guardian Snow said on Oct 22, 8:08 am: the passages
> > you gave mention nothing of taking anybody back.
>
> 2 Corinthians 2:6-9 does refer to the Corinthians
> taking back the man excommunicated in 1 Corinthians
> 5:13, after his repentance.
Ironically the word repentance isn't there is it? You love to put
words in the mouth of your Messiah, don't you.
> > Snow said: excommunication is not biblical
>
> It is (Matthew 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:11).
Mat 18:16 "But if he does not hear, take with you one or two more,
that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word might be
established.'
Mat 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, say it to the assembly. And
if he refuses even to hear the assembly, let him be to you like a
gentile and a tax collector.
Again, at the words of two or three witnesses. What does the passage
say?
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
He took it upon himself. You missed the whole point of the Law my
friend. He is a false witness and he broke the Law!
> > Snow said: it is not a word in scriptures.
>
> Neither is "biblical".
>
> > Snow said: delivering men to Satan certainly sounds
> > like spiritual death to me.
> > Snow said: this goes against the teachings of
> > Yeshua
>
> It doesn't (John 20:23).
Joh 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if
you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
And this has what to do with delivering men to the accuser?
> > Snow said: Yeshua, who came for sinners.
>
> -For those who would repent (Luke 13:3).
Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole
have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Ironically Saul never did repent of the murder of Stephen or those
other guys.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
> > Snow said: Mat 9:13
>
> Keyword repentance (Luke 13:5).
Something you should take up with your false Messiah, I agree. Sinners
that repent.
> > Snow said: Jer 31:33
(snip)
Wrong.
Again, I do not acknowledge the lies of your false Messiah, he lacks
two witnesses to his apostleship and so the matter is NOT
established. Peter called him Brother, deal with it.
I quoted those passages to you for a reason that has obviously escaped
your logic.
First,
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a
new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
The Covenant is with Israel and Judah only.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law
in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their
God, and they shall be my people.
Now if the Law was written on your heart, you would keep the
Commandments and that means the Sabbath. You love to reason yourself
into the "New Heaven and New Earth" as if somehow earth is already
passed away. The fact is my friend while you choose to ignore the
fact, the Sabbath is forever and the law is in tact regardless of what
your False Prophet says who bore you no burden.
Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use
their tongues, and say, He saith.
Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith
the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies,
and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them:
therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall
ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say
unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
crafty, I caught you with guile.
> > Snow said: Isa 66:23
>
> That refers to a New Earth Sabbath, not the Old
> Covenant Sabbath which will not even be remembered
> (Isaiah 65:17).
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the
former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Yes, the former earth will not be remember but the Sabbath is still
forever.
Lev 16:31 "It is a Sabbath of rest for you, and you shall afflict your
beings - a law forever.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the
LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his
servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and
taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them
joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their
sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be
called a house of prayer for all people.
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily
my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you
throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that
doth sanctify you.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me
and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Blah, blah blah.. you have no desire to learn, your just being
arrogant and wrong.
Guardian Snow
Deu 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his
commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with
thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong
thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, FOREVER.
> Hebrews wasn't written by Paul, nor was the writer of
> Hebrews or Paul against keeping the new commandments
> of Messiah (1 Thessalonians 4:2, Hebrews 8:6-13,
> 7:12,18-19), which replaced the old commandments of
> Moses (John 1:17, 8:5-11, Matthew 19:7-9, 5:31-44).
>
> > Snow said: all four gospels, Peter and John, James
> > stand in keeping the Commandments.
>
> None of them say that Christians after the cross have
> to keep the old commandments of Moses (Galatians
> 2:21).
Again you quote the false Messiah who has no other witnesses. But your
wrong of course...
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we
love God, and keep his commandments.
GOD's commandments, not the Son of Gods.
You love to run off on to a dozen topics like your double minded
Messiah Paul.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines
the commandments of men.
You love following the commandments of men with your SUNday Roman
Catholic worship and you don't even know thats who changed your day of
worship under Constantine are you really this ignorant?
You act cleaver but your just like your liar of a Messiah. You can't
do a post without quoting him have you noticed that?
So about the Ten Commandments what did Christ say?
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor
thy father and mother.
We thought he did.. at least but he loves to play ignorant and pretend
those passages don't excist. Who's Commandments are you to keep?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such a heart in them, that they would fear
me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with
them, and with their children forever!
Now it's amazing that somebody like you, who knows scriptures can
pretend that there are only "two commandments" when we both know
Christ summed up the Torah with that statement.
i Know.. next it's.. but were not Israel.. but you want the covenant
of Israel and Judah.. run in circles to follow your false Messiah.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered unto them.
Two post resurrection Apostles and James, the brother if Jesus. 3
witnesses according to the LAW!
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or
two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may
be established.
ESTABLISHED!
Abrams1117
Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul against you. Anything else is
your misunderstanding.
> Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.- Hide quoted text -
Guardian Snow
Abrams1117 wrote:
> Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul against you. Anything else is
> your misunderstanding.
Meanwhile the entire bible outside of this one mans false teachings
say to keep the commandments which includes the Sabbath. To that end
Paul is your soul witness when you come to the throne of judgment
against Elohim, The Messiah, Peter the rock of the Messiah church,
Luke (who by the way supported the commandments) John, James, all the
prophets, the writings... then entire bible.
The fact is you can't support for the lies of Paul outside of his his
false doctrine. You can't include brother timothy because he didn't
author anything to give a testimony.
I think it's funny you would even consider supporting Hebrews as being
a anything other than pure fantasy.
Heb 6:1 .. leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection;
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of
faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and
of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring
upon themselves swift destruction.
Only those who hate God would believe such damnable heresies!
Abrams1117
> Abrams1117 wrote:
> > Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul against you. Anything else is
> > your misunderstanding.
>
> Meanwhile the entire bible outside of this one mans false teachings
> say to keep the commandments which includes the Sabbath.
You ignore that Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul.
You ignore that you would have to toss out every book of the New
Testament except those
of 5 writers because the other books support Paul.
You ignore that Scripture says it is your misunderstanding of his
teaching that is wrong, not Paul.
You ignore that the Followers of Jesus Christ rested on the Sabbath
after he was crucified.
You ignore that Jesus Christ said to pray that your flight during the
coming tribulation not be on a Sabbath.
You ignore that the Book of Ezekiel PLAINLY teaches that the weekly
Sabbath will be kept during the millennium.
You ignore the fact that Paul was simply QUOTING that verse in
Ezekiel.
You do not know that everyone will keep the Sabbath during the
millennium?
You do not know that Ezekiel teaches this?
You do not know that Paul quoted this?
Maybe, it is your MISUNDERSTANDING of Paul that is causing you
trouble.
By the way...
>To that end Paul is your soul witness when you come to the throne of judgment
> against Elohim
Is Elohim plural?
>, The Messiah, Peter the rock of the Messiah church,
Which verse says 'Messiah Church'?
> Luke (who by the way supported the commandments) John, James, all the
> prophets, the writings... then entire bible.
Luke also supported Paul.
>
> The fact is you can't support for the lies of Paul outside of his his
> false doctrine.
You do not know that you are judging yourself.
>You can't include brother timothy because he didn't
> author anything to give a testimony.
>
Timothy defends Paul.
> I think it's funny you would even consider supporting Hebrews as being
> a anything other than pure fantasy.
>
> Heb 6:1 .. leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
>
> let us go on unto perfection;
>
> not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of
> faith toward God,
> Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and
> of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
>
> 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
> there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
> damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring
> upon themselves swift destruction.
>
> Only those who hate God would believe such damnable heresies!
If you are wrong, you have just pronounced that you hate G-D.
Abrams1117
> Abrams1117 wrote:
> > Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul against you. Anything else is
> > your misunderstanding.
>
> Meanwhile the entire bible outside of this one mans false teachings
> say to keep the commandments which includes the Sabbath. To that end
> Paul is your soul witness when you come to the throne of judgment
> against Elohim, The Messiah, Peter the rock of the Messiah church,
> Luke (who by the way supported the commandments) John, James, all the
> prophets, the writings... then entire bible.
>
> The fact is you can't support for the lies of Paul outside of his his
> false doctrine. You can't include brother timothy because he didn't
> author anything to give a testimony.
>
> I think it's funny you would even consider supporting Hebrews as being
> a anything other than pure fantasy.
>
> Heb 6:1 .. leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
>
> let us go on unto perfection;
>
> not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of
> faith toward God,
> Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and
> of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
>
Paul's misunderstanding or you own?
NIV Hebrews 6
Paul is not saying these things are wrong, he is going beyond them to
teach a very important lesson.
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go
on to maturity, not laying
again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a]
and of faith in G-D,
2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection
of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3And G-D permitting, we will do so.
Once you have done all these things....
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have
tasted the heavenly gift, who
have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of G-D and the powers of the
coming age,
And you then turn away from G-D....
6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to
their loss they are crucifying the Son of G-D
all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a
crop useful to those for whom it is
farmed receives the blessing of G-D.
Then you are in danger of hell.....
8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is
in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
He does not want that to happen....
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of
better things in your case-things
that accompany salvation.
10G-D is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you
have shown him as you have helped
his people and continue to help them.
11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in
order to make your hope sure.
12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through
faith and patience inherit what
has been promised.
13When G-D made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater
for him to swear by, he swore by himself,
14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."[c]
15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms
what is said and puts an end to all argument.
17Because G-D wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very
clear to the heirs of what was
promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
18G-D did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is
impossible for G-D to lie, we who have
fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly
encouraged.
19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It
enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
20where Jesus, who went before us,has entered on our behalf. He has
become a high priest forever, in
the order of Melchizedek.
* Once you turn away from the plow, like a dog turning back to its own
vomit, there is no hope for you; you are
then in danger of hell.
> 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
> there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
> damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring
> upon themselves swift destruction.
>
Since Peter defends Paul is he describing Paul, or you?
Guardian Snow
> On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> > Abrams1117 wrote:
> > > Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul against you. Anything else is
> > > your misunderstanding.
>
> > Meanwhile the entire bible outside of this one mans false teachings
> > say to keep the commandments which includes the Sabbath.
>
> You ignore that Peter, Luke and Timothy defend Paul.
I find it interesting that you find Peter is defending Paul.
2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you
also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
delusion of the lawless,
Forewarned, led away with delusion.. yeah.. that sounds like support
to me, NOT.
Timothy? What did he write? Luke? Luke tells it like he saw it,
thats why he gave all the different accounts of Paul's lies and:
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
He supported the Ten Commandments and that the gospel to the gentiles
was to come from PETER.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose
up, ...that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the
gospel, and believe.
You ignore these facts to your own peril.
> You ignore that you would have to toss out every book of the New
> Testament except those
> of 5 writers because the other books support Paul.
No, I have no issues with them, they all show strong support of the
truth and give a true account of the Messiah. Just the lies of Paul
and Hebrews need to be understood as Roman Catholic Libertine paganism
introduced by canonized Constantine.
> You ignore that Scripture says it is your misunderstanding of his
> teaching that is wrong, not Paul.
I see it as a warning against Paul but that shows just how cleaver the
true Apostle was, after all the Romans wouldn't have brought out his
letters if he said outright he's Lucifer. They did already destroy
his gospel account. The canonization of the bible is a very
interesting story of Pagans hijacking the religion and your worship is
in vain on SUN day Xmass pagan ceremonies.
> You ignore that the Followers of Jesus Christ rested on the Sabbath
> after he was crucified.
Sabbath, correct and that is not ignored but you don't know anything
about high Sabbaths since you don't keep them.
> You ignore that Jesus Christ said to pray that your flight during the
> coming tribulation not be on a Sabbath.
Why would I ignore the Law that you use Paul to toss away?
> You ignore that the Book of Ezekiel PLAINLY teaches that the weekly
> Sabbath will be kept during the millennium.
Which again is part of the Law that will stand forever just as it says
in Duet.
> You ignore the fact that Paul was simply QUOTING that verse in
> Ezekiel.
No, I don't. I don't believe the false apostle.
> You do not know that everyone will keep the Sabbath during the
> millennium?
It is written and the Sabbath is the same as it was in the beginning,
Peter stated it.
> You do not know that Ezekiel teaches this?
Better then you obviously.
> Maybe, it is your MISUNDERSTANDING of Paul that is causing you
> trouble.
Maybe your need to cling to a lie is causing you to fall away.
> By the way...
>
> >To that end Paul is your soul witness when you come to the throne of judgment
> > against Elohim
No, I keep the Sabbath and I wear the Law.
> Is Elohim plural?
As it is written in Jewish scripture. If you don't like the word,
take it up with the Torah.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.
> >, The Messiah, Peter the rock of the Messiah church,
>
> Which verse says 'Messiah Church'?
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven.
> > Luke (who by the way supported the commandments) John, James, all the
> > prophets, the writings... then entire bible.
>
> Luke also supported Paul.
No, he reported about him and that is different. He reported that the
gospel was to go to the gentiles by the mouth of Peter.
> > The fact is you can't support for the lies of Paul outside of his his
> > false doctrine.
>
> You do not know that you are judging yourself.
I can live with that just fine because:
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things
saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in
the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how
thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them
which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle
It's write in front of your eyes brother.
> >You can't include brother timothy because he didn't
> > author anything to give a testimony.
>
> Timothy defends Paul.
>
>
>
> > I think it's funny you would even consider supporting Hebrews as being
> > a anything other than pure fantasy.
>
> > Heb 6:1 .. leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
>
> > let us go on unto perfection;
>
> > not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of
> > faith toward God,
> > Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and
> > of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
>
> > 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
> > there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
> > damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring
> > upon themselves swift destruction.
>
> > Only those who hate God would believe such damnable heresies!
>
> If you are wrong, you have just pronounced that you hate G-D.
No, I have said that there is not a "perfection leaving doctrine of
Christ. Works are not dead.. and your too blind to see this...
Heb 6:1 Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of
repentance from dead works, and (of faith toward God),
It is calling you to LEAVE faith towards God. We know from James that
works are not dead, Yeshua preached repentance and this is saying
there is something MORE perfect then his ministry.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
He is perfect and not cursed as your false Messiah preached.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you
record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your
own eyes, and have given them to me.
He never rebukes them for receiving him as the Messiah. He claims it.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my
strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I
rather glory in my infirmities, (that the power of Christ may rest
upon me.)
That is your Messiah and your God.
He is a Liar as recorded in Rev 2.
Abrams1117
I guess I didnt fast on the Day of Atonement...wow that 25 hour
massive headache must mean a tumor...
...yeah, your now omniscient (know it all).....g/l.....
> He is a Liar as recorded in Rev 2.- Hide quoted text -
Guardian Snow
> I guess I didnt fast on the Day of Atonement...wow that 25 hour
massive headache must mean a tumor...
...yeah, your now omniscient (know it all).....g/l.....
I never claimed to know it all but I do know this, Paul is a liar and
the truth is not in him. For a matter to be established as a matter
of Torah, you must have two or three witnesses. The laws of the Torah
were in fact confirmed by the Messiah Yeshua.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or
two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may
be established.
So while you seem to think that this is somehow a personal matter,
that has anything to do with myself, it doesn't. This same manner of
legalism would have been upheld by any Apostle of the Messiah. So, to
go back to the original statement:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Paul alone delivered two men "unto Satan". He does not account for
any trial before the assembly or even a rebuke.
Later
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,
and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles,
that one should have his father's wife.
Fornication as is not so much... doctrine of Balam as recorded in Rev.
2. What about it?
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered
together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
When your in the assembly (In Paul's spirit with the power of LJC,
read it) It says nothing about witnesses but only to "deliver to
Satan". Why? Not to be saved by Jesus but "in the day" and that means
he's to be murdered. Even if this is just "excommunication" as
another author who adds words to Paul says, it's a violation of the
Law that the Messiah established for his followers.
The Messiah came to deliver us from the accusor not to him and I will
never follow a man who allowed his followers to receive him as the
Messiah and El. (I don't need to put those quotes back up) He claims
for himself the "power of Christ" and has become Messiah to the
uncircumcised.
Look, I don't care if you want to continue to follow Paul and worship
him. It's not my job to make you believe what I say, I am only
required to give you my witness.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do,
bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
You have my account of what I believe is truth. I will not reject the
ONE Messiah Yeshua, that came in the name of the Father in heaven.
The Messiah called on us to repent and obey the prophets and Moses and
died for the forgiveness of the sins of many.
Abrams1117
> On Oct 24, 3:09 pm, Abrams1117 <John1...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> > I guess I didnt fast on the Day of Atonement...wow that 25 hour
>
> massive headache must mean a tumor...
> ...yeah, your now omniscient (know it all).....g/l.....
>
> I never claimed to know it all but I do know this,
You didnt claim, you said '> Sabbath, correct and that is not ignored
but you don't know anything
> about high Sabbaths since you don't keep them.
Are you saying that 'they rested on the Sabbath according to the
command was on a high Sabbath (1)?
1) Sabbath, correct and that is not ignored but
2) you don't know anything about high Sabbaths
3) since you don't keep them.
> Paul is a liar and
> the truth is not in him. For a matter to be established as a matter
> of Torah, you must have two or three witnesses. The laws of the Torah
> were in fact confirmed by the Messiah Yeshua.
>
And how many of your own beliefs cannot be proven this way?
You again, judge yourself.
> Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or
> two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may
> be established.
>
And yet again.
> So while you seem to think that this is somehow a personal matter,
> that has anything to do with myself, it doesn't. This same manner of
> legalism would have been upheld by any Apostle of the Messiah. So, to
> go back to the original statement:
>
You made it personal (but you don't know anything about high Sabbaths
since you don't keep them). ....
are you now about to attack?
> 1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered
> unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
>
> Paul alone delivered two men "unto Satan". He does not account for
> any trial before the assembly or even a rebuke.
>
> Later
>
> 1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,
> and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles,
> that one should have his father's wife.
>
> Fornication as is not so much... doctrine of Balam as recorded in Rev.
> 2. What about it?
>
> 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered
> together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
> 1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the
> flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
>
> When your in the assembly (In Paul's spirit with the power of LJC,
> read it) It says nothing about witnesses but only to "deliver to
> Satan". Why? Not to be saved by Jesus but "in the day" and that means
> he's to be murdered. Even if this is just "excommunication" as
> another author who adds words to Paul says, it's a violation of the
> Law that the Messiah established for his followers.
>
He is talking about the second coming of Jesus Christ when the Feast
of Trumpets is fulfilled.
I apologize, I had no idea you were not even ready for milk.
> The Messiah came to deliver us from the accusor not to him and I will
> never follow a man who allowed his followers to receive him as the
> Messiah and El. (I don't need to put those quotes back up) He claims
> for himself the "power of Christ" and has become Messiah to the
> uncircumcised.
>
> Look, I don't care if you want to continue to follow Paul and worship
> him. It's not my job to make you believe what I say, I am only
> required to give you my witness.
>
Do you worship Peter?
> Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
> which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do,
> bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
>
> You have my account of what I believe is truth. I will not reject the
> ONE Messiah Yeshua, that came in the name of the Father in heaven.
> The Messiah called on us to repent and obey the prophets and Moses and
> died for the forgiveness of the sins of many.
The Son of man is your master, savior and your creator.
If it came between choosing to obey G-D or Jesus Christ whom would you
obey?
Who do you pray to?
Guardian Snow
> > I never claimed to know it all but I do know this,
>
> You didnt claim, you said '> Sabbath, correct and that is not ignored
> but you don't know anything
>
> > about high Sabbaths since you don't keep them.
>
> Are you saying that 'they rested on the Sabbath according to the
> command was on a high Sabbath (1)?
Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that
the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for
that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs
might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
What day do you believe the Messiah died and what day do you believe
he rose again?
I will tell you this, what I have come to understand includes passover
and the days of unleavened bread.
When I pray, I follow after the manner that was taught, Our Father in
heaven.
I'm sorry if you took my comments personally but what I was pointing
out is that there are more Sabbaths in the Torah then just the weekly
Sabbath. What people have come to believe and except is a lie built
around pagan traditions. We both know that and yet you don't seem to
be interested in cleaning out the closet of the bible. I say it's
better to be done with the lies so that should our father will it, Our
children won't grow up believing the same false notion that "all
scripture" is good. Ironically when Paul wrote that, Gnostic gospels
were raging around and his words were not canonized with Hebrew
scriptures.
Guardian Snow
Don't waste your time preaching to me from you book of lies. You know
how easy it is to show absolute proof that Hebrews is a lie? One
verse.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going
before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of
communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables
of stone, written with the finger of God.
The creator made that law with his own Finger. Hebrews calls
something Elohim made, "Weak" and "Unprofitable". This goes against
every other book outside your liar Paul.
How do we know?
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the
testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the
judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine
gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
is great reward.
That which Elohim makes is ALWAYS PERFECT and if you don't think so
you have become his judge and not mine brother.
Read The Bible
> ignore the entire old testament
No, Christians should read and know all of it, for
it is all about Messiah (Luke 24:44-47, John 5:39,
Revelation 19:10); even the old Mosaic law was a
shadow of what was to come under Messiah (Hebrews
10:1-23, Colossians 2:16-17).
> Snow said: [Paul] claimed the POWER OF CHRIST
All he claimed was that it rested upon him in his own
weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9). It also rested upon
the other apostles (Acts 4:33), and other disciples
(Luke 10:19).
> Snow said: He takes pleasure in your suffering.
No, 2 Corinthians 12:10 is referring back to Paul's
own suffering in 2 Corinthians 12:9.
> Snow said: 1Th 2:6 ... placed a "burden" on them.
Just the opposite; he didn't place a burden on them
(1 Thessalonians 2:7-10).
> Snow said: Jeremiah spoke about the burden of the
> prophets
That was what the prophets called a message given to
them from God to certain people (Malachi 1:1,
Zechariah 12:1, 9:1, Ezekiel 12:10, Nahum 1:1,
Habakkuk 1:1, Isaiah 13:1, 14:28, 15:1, 17:1, 19:1,
21:1,11,13, 22:1, 23:1, 30:6). Because true prophets
like Zechariah kept using the term "burden" in
relation to their prophecies even after what God said
in Jeremiah 23:33-40, it wasn't the single word
"burden" that was forbidden, but its use in the
phrase "the burden of the LORD", which phrase the
true prophets never used. Instead, they would say
something like "The burden of the word of the LORD
for Israel" (Zechariah 12:1), or "The burden of the
word of the LORD to Israel" (Malachi 1:1), or "The
burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did
see" (Isaiah 13:1); so that the burden was always
placed clearly on the recipient of the prophetic
message, and never on God its divine sender.
> Snow said: Mat 11:30
The burden of the yoke of Messiah does not include
the burden of the yoke of the old Mosaic law (Acts
15:10, Galatians 5:1-4), for Messiah took away that
old burden (Hebrews 10:9) and nailed it to His cross
(Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18-19),
so that we are no longer under it (Galatians 3:23-25)
and should not desire to be under it (Galatians
4:21-5:4).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 23, 9:02 am:
> [Re: 2 Corinthians 2:6-9] ... the word repentance
> isn't there
It doesn't have to be, for they couldn't have
accepted him back it he hadn't repented
(1 Corinthians 5:11, Matthew 18:17). The "sorrow"
of 2 Corinthians 2:7 is the sorrow of repentance
(compare 2 Corinthians 7:10).
> Snow said: [Re: Matthew 18:16-17] ... at the words
> of two or three witnesses. What does the passage
> say? ... 1Ti 1:20 ... He took it upon himself.
Nothing requires that Paul didn't have other
witnesses of the blasphemy of Hymenaeus and
Alexander.
> Snow said: He is a false witness and he broke the
> Law!
There's no proof that Paul was a false witness, or
that he broke the law of Messiah in 1 Timothy 1:20.
So to make that false accusation is bearing false
witness against Paul.
> Snow said: Joh 20:23 ... And this has what to do
> with delivering men to the accuser?
Apostles were given the authority by Messiah to
punish people in the church with excommunication
until they repented. Peter's judgments against
Ananias and Sapphira even resulted in an immediate
death sentence from God (Acts 5:1-11), so the
judgments of the apostles carried great weight.
> Snow said: Saul never did repent of the murder of
> Stephen or those other guys.
He did, for Messiah forgave him for everything
(1 Timothy 1:12-17).
> Snow said: Rom 11:29
That means that God doesn't take back His calling and
gifts; the Greek word translated there as
"repentance" is a completely different word than the
Greek word used to refer to repentance from sin.
> Snow said: Something you should take up with [Paul]
Paul was all about repentance from sin (Acts 17:30,
20:21, 26:20, Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 12:21).
> Snow said: [Paul] lacks two witnesses to his
> apostleship
He doesn't; Ananias confirmed that it was Jesus who
appeared to Paul (Acts 9:17), and Paul is called an
apostle in Acts 14:14. The whole church affirmed
Paul's ministry (Acts 15:25-26), just as Peter
affirmed all of Paul's epistles as being scripture
(2 Peter 3:15-16).
> Snow said: The [New] Covenant is with Israel and
> Judah only.
Yes, but it's also for the Gentiles (Isaiah 42:6,
49:6, Matthew 28:19-20), for believing Gentiles are
grafted into Israel (John 10:16, Romans 11:17,
Ephesians 2:12,19).
> Snow said: if the Law was written on your heart,
> you would keep the Commandments and that means the
> Sabbath
The law of Jeremiah 31:33 is the law of the New
Covenant, which is "not according to" the law of the
Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32), but has its own
commandments (John 14:15, Matthew 5:21-7:29) and its
own every-day sabbath rest, whereby Christians cease
from their own works every day (Hebrews 4:10) and
only do that which Messiah wants them to do
(2 Corinthians 5:15, Luke 9:23).
> Snow said: the Sabbath is forever
Not the Old Covenant Sabbath (Isaiah 65:17).
> Snow said: the law is in tact
Not the Old Covenant law (John 8:5-11, Matthew
19:7-9, 5:31-44).
> Snow said: Lev 16:31
That isn't referring to the one-day-a-week Sabbath,
but to the day of atonement. And it doesn't say that
the Old Covenant day of atonement is the statute for
ever; it's prophesying of the New Covenant atonement
wrought by Messiah Himself (Matthew 26:28, Romans
5:11) which would forever replace all animal
sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23) and by faith in
which we will humble our souls (2 Corinthians 5:15,
Galatians 2:20) and find an every-day sabbath rest
(Hebrews 4:3,10) under His yoke forever (Matthew
11:29).
> Snow said: Isa 56:6 ... Exo 31:13 ... Eze 20:20
Those verses don't say that the Old Covenant Sabbath
would be forever, just as no verses say that the Old
Covenant itself would be forever. God specifically
foretold the day when He would make a New Covenant
not according to the Old one (Jeremiah 31:31-32),
a new one which would be an "everlasting covenant"
(Jeremiah 32:40, Ezekiel 16:60, 37:26, Hebrews
13:20), like the original covenant God made with
Abraham (1 Chronicles 16:15-17). The Old Mosaic
Covenant was just a temporary covenant until Messiah
came to fulfill God's original covenant with Abraham
(Galatians 3:15-29).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 23, 9:23 am: Deu 4:40
That's referring to the land which is given to Israel
forever under the everlasting covenant God made with
Abraham (Exodus 32:13; 2 Chronicles 20:7).
> Snow said: Rev 14:12 ... 1Jn 5:2
Those don't refer to the abolished Old Covenant
commandments but to the New Covenant commandments
which God gave through Messiah (John 12:49, 14:24;
1 John 2:2-6, Acts 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 4:2;
1 Corinthians 14:37).
> Snow said: changed your day of worship
Every day, nay every second, should be a time of
worship (Psalms 40:16, Hebrews 13:15, Luke 24:53).
> Snow said: Mar 10:19
The Old Covenant was still in effect at that time;
it wasn't abolished until the cross (Colossians 2:14,
Ephesians 2:15). But Jesus never mentions the Sabbath
when He's referring to some of the ten commandments
because He didn't keep the Sabbath (John 9:16), but
broke the Sabbath by working on it (John 5:16-18),
and He let the apostles also work on the Sabbath
(Matthew 12:1-8), and He even commanded a man to
work on the Sabbath (John 5:8-10); for He Himself is
the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). Our New
Covenant Sabbath rest is in Messiah Himself every day
(Matthew 11:29, Hebrews 4:3,10), not in some day of
the week.
Read The Bible
> Commandments are you to keep?
God's; and there is one of His commandments that
encompasses all of His commandments, and the prophets
as well (John 15:12, Matthew 7:12, Galatians 5:14).
> Snow said: Deu 5:29
That allows for the commandments to change (Jeremiah
31:31-32).
> Snow said: 2Pe 2:21
Messiah Himself is the way of righteousness (2 Peter
2:20, John 14:6, Jeremiah 23:6, Galatians 2:21,
Romans 10:4), so the holy commandment is His
commandment (Matthew 5:48).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 23, 11:33 am: Heb 6:1
There the Greek word translated as "principles" is
often translated in the New Testament as "beginning";
the writer of Hebrews was saying that he was moving
on in his letter from lessons about Christ which were
for beginners (Hebrews 5:12-14) to lessons about
Christ which were more advanced. In 1 Corinthians
3:1-2, Paul says something similar, in that he makes
a distinction between teachings for beginners and
teachings for those who are more spiritually mature.
He also says: "In malice be ye children, but in
understanding be men" (1 Corinthians 14:20); "I would
have you wise unto that which is good, and simple
concerning evil" (Romans 16:19). Peter may have been
directing his first epistle to those who were just
recently converted, for he refers to them as "newborn
babes" (1 Peter 2:2).
> Snow said: 2Pe 2:1
The writer of Hebrews doesn't deny the Lord or teach
any heresy.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Abrams1117 said on Oct 23, 1:26 pm: Followers of
> Jesus Christ rested on the Sabbath after he was
> crucified.
-Followers of Jesus Christ are free to rest on the
Old Covenant Sabbath if they so choose, but they are
not to judge those followers of Jesus Christ who do
not choose to do so (Romans 14:4-6, Colossians 2:16).
> Abrams1117 said: Jesus Christ said to pray that
> your flight during the coming tribulation not be on
> a Sabbath.
The Sabbath part of Matthew 24:20 would apply to
those followers of Jesus Christ who choose to rest
on the Old Covenant Sabbath. The parallel verse Mark
13:18 shows that the Sabbath part of Matthew 24:20 is
not a sine qua non of that teaching.
> Abrams1117 said: the Book of Ezekiel PLAINLY
> teaches that the weekly Sabbath will be kept during
> the millennium.
Ezekiel 46:1,4,12 won't be fulfilled in the
millennium. It was part of a conditional vision
(Ezekiel 43:11) which was never fulfilled, and will
now never be fulfilled because it involves animal
sacrifices for sin (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 43:19-25,
44:27,29, 45:17-25, 46:20); after Jesus' one-time
human sacrifice for our sins (Matthew 26:28), there
are no more sacrifices for sin forever (Hebrews
10:1-23).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 23, 8:01 pm: 2Pe 3:17
There, Peter wasn't referring to Paul, but to the
wicked, for Peter had just finished affirming the
wisdom given to Paul (2 Peter 3:15), even going so
far as to confirm all of Paul's epistles as scripture
(2 Peter 3:16). The "error of the wicked" in 2 Peter
3:17 refers back to those unlearned and unstable
people who were twisting Paul's epistles, as they did
the other scriptures, to their own destruction
(2 Peter 3:16).
> Snow said: Act 15:21
That wasn't included in the agreement reached by the
whole church (Acts 15:22-29), which specifically
states that believing Gentiles don't have to be
circumcised or keep the law of Moses, and that anyone
who tells them they do is "subverting their souls"
(Acts 15:24).
> Snow said: Act 15:7
Acts 15:7-9 is referring back to the time God chose
Peter to be the first one to preach the gospel to
uncircumcised Gentiles, in Caesarea (Acts 10:28-47).
Later, God sent Paul as an apostle to the Gentiles
(Acts 26:17-18), while Peter focused on Jews
(Galatians 2:8).
> Snow said: the lies of Paul and Hebrews need to be
> understood as Roman Catholic Libertine paganism
Neither Paul nor the writer of Hebrews was Roman
Catholic, nor did they teach any paganism, nor did
they teach any libertinism, but taught very strongly
against people continuing in sin (1 Corinthians
6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 10:26-31).
> Snow said: The canonization of the bible is a very
> interesting story of Pagans hijacking the religion
Nothing in the Bible teaches paganism, nor is there
any proof that any book in the New Testament wasn't
written by a true apostle of Messiah or an immediate
follower of one; nor is there any proof that any book
in the New Testament was rejected by the true
apostles.
> Snow said: Rev 2:2 ... Eph 1:1
Revelation 2:2 was referring to false apostles, not
to Paul. True apostles can say they are apostles;
Ephesians 1:1 is no different than 1 Peter 1:1. And
Acts 14:14 confirms that Paul was an apostle.
> Snow said: [Re: Hebrews 6:1] Works are not dead
They are if they're done apart from faith in Messiah
(John 15:5). The writer of Hebrews was all for works
of faith (Hebrews 6:10, 10:24, 13:21).
> Snow said: [Re: Hebrews 6:1] It is calling you to
> LEAVE faith towards God.
Never; he taught the exact opposite, that we should
always hold onto our faith without wavering (Hebrews
10:23,39). In Hebrews 6:1, he was just saying that he
wanted to move on at that point from the most
rudimentary lessons on Messiah to discuss some more
advanced lessons on Messiah. The writer of Hebrews
was all for faith (Hebrews 6:12, 10:22-23,38-39,
12:2, 13:7); he later even devoted a whole passage to
it (Hebrews 11).
> Snow said: [Re: Hebrews 6:1] Yeshua preached
> repentance and this is saying there is something
> MORE perfect then his ministry.
Not at all; the Greek word translated as "perfection"
means "completion"; the writer of Hebrews wanted to
bring his readers on to "completion" in a course on
Messiah that went beyond the beginners level. The
writer of Hebrews was all for repentance (Hebrews
10:26-31), and he exalted Yeshua's ministry
throughout his letter (Hebrews 1:1-3:6, 4:14-16,
5:5-9, 6:20, 7:22-8:2, 9:11-15,24-28, 10:5-23,29,
12:24, 13:8,12), even calling it "a more excellent
ministry" (Hebrews 8:6); we are to be "Looking unto
Yeshua the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews
12:2).
> Snow said: He is perfect and not cursed
Galatians 3:13 means that the perfect Yeshua while
He was on the cross temporarily took upon himself our
sin (2 Corinthians 5:21) and the curse of the law, so
that we might get free of them through His vicarious
death (2 Corinthians 5:14, Romans 6:6-14, Galatians
2:19-21, Romans 7:1-4).
> Snow said: Gal 4:14
Galatians 4:14 means that they treated Paul as well
as they would have treated Messiah; it doesn't mean
they thought he was Messiah. Messiah taught that
those who received His apostles received Him (John
13:20, Matthew 10:40), in the sense that they were
His messengers. To accept Messiah's messengers is to
accept His message, and so to accept Him; to reject
Messiah's messengers is to reject His message, and so
to reject Him.
Those who persist in rejecting Paul are persisting in
rejecting Messiah's own messenger (Acts 26:18), and
so they are rejecting Messiah's own message, and so
they are rejecting Messiah Himself.
Abrams1117
I so wanted to be done with you. When you say that someone 'worships'
Paul and say he is their G-D
I do not know how you could ever apologize for such vile statements.
Yet, G-D has other plans. I made a childish mistake and now cannot
simply leave this discussion.
Jesus Christ our Passover lamb was crucified ON the Passover
fulfilling that Holy Day.
The next day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread a Sabbath: John 19:31 &
Luke 23:54-56
Leviticus :
23:4: These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which
ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
23:5: In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's
passover.
23:6: And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of
unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened
bread.
23:7: In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do
no servile work therein.
John 19:
1. Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
2. And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head,
and they put on him a purple robe,
3. And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their
hands.
4. Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I
bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
5. Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple
robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
6. When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried
out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye
him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to
die, because he made himself the Son of G-D.
8. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9. And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence
art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest
thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release
thee?
11. Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me,
except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me
unto thee hath the greater sin.
12. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews
cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's
friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth,
and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the
Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth
hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests
answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And
they took Jesus, and led him away.
17. And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place
of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18. Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side
one, and Jesus in the midst.
19. And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing
was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20. This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus
was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and
Greek, and Latin.
21. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The
King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
23. Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his
garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his
coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
24. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast
lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled,
which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture
they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
25. Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's
sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by,
whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27. Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that
hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,
that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a
spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is
finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the
bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that
sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be
broken, and that they might be taken away.
32. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of
the other which was crucified with him.
33. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already,
they brake not his legs:
34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and
forthwith came there out blood and water.
35. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he
knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36. For these things were done, that the scripture should be
fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom
they pierced.
38. And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus,
but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take
away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore,
and took the body of Jesus.
39. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by
night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred
pound weight.
40. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes
with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
41. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in
the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
42. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation
day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Luke 23:
1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.
2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow
perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar,
saying that he himself is Christ a King.
3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he
answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no
fault in this man.
5 And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people,
teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.
6 When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a
Galilaean.
7 And as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod's jurisdiction,
he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Jerusalem at that time.
8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous
to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him;
and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him
nothing.
10 And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused
him.
11 And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him,
and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.
12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for
before they were at enmity between themselves.
13 And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the
rulers and the people,
14 Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that
perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you,
have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye
accuse him:
15 No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy
of death is done unto him.
16 I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)
18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and
release unto us Barabbas:
19 (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder, was
cast into prison.)
20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done?
I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him,
and let him go.
23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be
crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast
into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their
will.
26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a
Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross,
that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women,
which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not
for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say,
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps
which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to
the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in
the dry?
32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put
to death.
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary,
there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand,
and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they
do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them
derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be
Christ, the chosen of G-D.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him
vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek,
and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying,
If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear G-
D, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy
kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou
be with me in paradise.
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all
the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in
the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into
thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost.
47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified G-D, saying,
Certainly this was a righteous man.
48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the
things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from
Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was
a good man, and a just:
51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he
was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the
kingdom of G-D.
52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a
sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed
after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested
the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Mark 16:1 is the weekly Sabbath.
Mark 16
16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the
mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might
come and anoint him.
16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they
came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone
from the door of the sepulchre?
16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away:
for it was very great.
16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on
the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were
affrighted.
16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of
Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the
place where they laid him.
16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth
before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they
trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for
they were afraid.
16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he
appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven
devils.
16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they
mourned and wept.
16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been
seen of her, believed not.
16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they
walked, and went into the country.
16:13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed
they them.
16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature.
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall
they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they
shall recover.
16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up
into heaven, and sat on the right hand of G-D.
16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working
with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Abrams1117
This is amazing. I post what Paul said in an attempt to explain it
and you reply to this with
'Don't waste your time preaching to me from a book of
lies'..............?
Then you immediately quote Paul below..........!
> Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going
> before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
>
So, what are your rules? You can quote Paul to condemn him and no one
can quote him to defend him?
Or they can quote him and you will simply ignore what they post?
If these are your rules you are not looking for a discussion.
If these are not your rules, respond to the post.
* I hope those are your rules I have no desire to talk to you.
> Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of
> communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables
> of stone, written with the finger of God.
>
> The creator made that law with his own Finger. Hebrews calls
> something Elohim made, "Weak" and "Unprofitable". This goes against
> every other book outside your liar Paul.
>
> How do we know?
>
> Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the
> testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
> Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
> commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
> Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the
> judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
> Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine
> gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
> Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
> is great reward.
>
> That which Elohim makes is ALWAYS PERFECT and if you don't think so
> you have become his judge and not mine brother.- Hide quoted text -
Abrams1117
Denying that verse denies Jesus Christ.
Paul was defending Jesus Christ; and you deny it.
On what do you deny the Levitical Priesthood?
The entire debate was because the Jews would not accept the
priesthood of Jesus Christ because he was
not a Levitical priest. He was from the tribe of Judah - this in their
eyes disqualified him.
Melchisedec was a Priest of G-D:
Hebrews 7:
1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high G-D, who
met Abraham returning from the slaughter
of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by
interpretation King of righteousness, and after that
also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither
beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like
unto the Son of G-D; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch
Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office
of the priesthood, have a commandment to
take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their
brethren, though they come out of the loins of
Abraham:
Melchisedec was a Priest of G-D even though he was not a Levite:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of
Abraham, and blessed him that had the
promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of
whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in
Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met
him.
The Levitical Priesthood was not perfect (sacrifices do not remove
sin) there was need for a perfect priesthood:
11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under
it the people received the law,) what further
need was there that another priest should rise after the order of
Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The priesthood was changed:
12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a
change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe,
of which no man gave attendance at the
altar.
Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah - not Levi:
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe
Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Jesus Christ comes as a Priest like Melchisedec, not of the tribe of
Levi:
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of
Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Jesus Christ comes not after the law of a carnal commandment, but
after the power of immortality:
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after
the power of an endless life.
The Levitical Priesthood made nothing perfect:
17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of
Melchisedec.
18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before
for the weakness and unprofitableness
thereof.
The law made nothing perfect:
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better
hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto G-D.
20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath
by him that said unto him, The Lord sware
and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of
Melchisedec:)
Jesus Christ brought a better testament:
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to
continue by reason of death:
Jesus Christ has an unchangable priesthood because he lives forever:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable
priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come
unto G-D by him, seeing he ever liveth to
make intercession for them.
Jesus Christ offered himself to be a sacrifice once, not for his own
sins for he had none, but for many:
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled,
separate from sinners, and made higher
than the heavens;
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice,
first for his own sins, and then for the
people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the
word of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
> Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of
> communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables
> of stone, written with the finger of God.
>
Jesus Christ wrote the Ten Commandments with his finger.
> The creator made that law with his own Finger. Hebrews calls
> something Elohim made, "Weak" and "Unprofitable". This goes against
> every other book outside your liar Paul.
>
> How do we know?
>
> Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the
> testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
> Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
> commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
> Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever: the
> judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
> Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine
> gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
> Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
> is great reward.
>
> That which Elohim makes is ALWAYS PERFECT and if you don't think so
> you have become his judge and not mine brother.-
It seems you are using the word 'brother' as a slur - because Paul
was called brother by them.
If so, you are judging them. And in my opinion, also judging G-D;
saying he would have let a prophet of Satan the Devil deceive even
Peter, Luke and Timothy.
Guardian Snow
So, unless I agree with your book with no named author (except it was
from the libertines) I deny your false god. Fine by me. My God,
inspired King David and made a covenant with him that his throne would
endure forever. You keep your false god Paul and I'll have faith in
Yahweh of the Hebrew religion.
You know why Paul never put his name on this garbage? Because he know
the people of the real El would have hunted him down and stoned him
and rightfully so. You assume that just because Sun worshiping Pagan
Rome canonized a book, that makes it inspired by the same El of the
Hebrews and One has NOTHING to do with other.
You can believe your lies and that is your choice. Since we are all
created, we are all brothers on this earth, if you find that
offensive, you have issues.
You assume that if I deny the author of Hebrews (an uninspired) man, I
deny the authors of the gospel, not so.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also
transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and,
He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother,
It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your
tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and
honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and
understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but
that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou
that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly
Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if
the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Guardian Snow
You guys do a lot of long winded post that I honestly am not going to
bother to respond to on an individual bases. You always refer to you
messiah Paul and consistently everything in your religion (which is
different from mine) ends up saying that everything Jesus preached is
nullified by Paul.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and
shall deceive many.
1Co 5:4 ... and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye
baptized in the name of Paul?
2Co 12:9 .. that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Somebody told a lie and thats the bottom line. If this were not the
case then all the books would have the same doctrine and they don't.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he
in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which
he hath given us.
You tell me your false messiah abolished the Sabbath and you argue
over examples I give you. Fine, I find it pointless to point out
differences because you ignore what I say. How do I know this? You
say the law is abolished "at the cross". I point out that Peter and
John and James all agreed with the teaching of the Messiah AFTER the
impalement on the stake.
Since you ignore me, it is pointless to continue a discussion with
you. Your only desire is to defend Paul "who didn't burden you".
Defend him to the grave if you must and ignore all the others who
spoke of keeping the commandments of Elohim to your own peril.
Paul doesn't agree with all the other authors of the bible including
the Yeshua. I have decieded that since this is the case, I will
believe in the Messiah and not your man that claims his authority that
the Messiah warned about.
We agree to disagree,
Snow
Guardian Snow
> > Guardian Snow said on Oct 23, 7:09 am: So, you
> > ignore the entire old testament
>
> No, Christians should read and know all of it, for
> it is all about Messiah (Luke 24:44-47, John 5:39,
> Revelation 19:10); even the old Mosaic law was a
> shadow of what was to come under Messiah (Hebrews
> 10:1-23, Colossians 2:16-17).
Again, another long winded post of a lot of garbage where you start
with the truth and end with your Messiah Paul. It's the very reason
why your false church is divided into a dozen different factions that
spend it's days calling each other Satan.
Until you can understand that Paul effectually nullified the Messiah
with his false teaching, your going to remain divided. You take the
words of a man who claims the authority and power of the Messiah and
have nullified all of Hebrew scriptures for you SUN worship in front
of your pagan idol of the cross.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth
beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for
I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and
keep my commandments.
You have denied the authority of Yahweh in your life by claiming your
Roman man says "fulfilled" means abolished the law. Thats your choice
in life and you can continue to believe your lies that all the
scriptures agree. They don't and you refuse to reconcile the
differences.
The Messiah said to call no man your Father and Paul claims he is your
Father.
The Messiah preached on Sabbath and is "Lord of the Sabbath", you
worship on SUN day claiming Paul changed all that, fine, keep your
false religion.
It is not the Messiah you are defending but your institutions of
religion and your scriptures that hold different doctrines.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in
heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and
tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee,
thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or
two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may
be established.
The fact is you can't find in scriptures two or three witnesses
against me and keeping the commandments. You MUST always keep your
GOD PAUL that abolished every other teaching in scriptures and the Law
of Yahweh.
You have rejected his Sabbath and have chosen another, it's your
choice and clearly my words fall on deaf ears. Just as the Messiah
and all the prophets said, you have forsaken El for another and you
can't cling to Paul and still worship the Messiah Yeshua who told you,
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me,
and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and
cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime
receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now
he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great
gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou
wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them,
lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them
from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.
You have Moses and the Prophets but you rejected them for Paul. You
have made your choice and it's clear but don't think they preached the
same religion as Yeshua the King of Kings.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to
give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first
and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may
have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates
into the city.
It's a clear choice between keeping the commandments or keeping Paul.
Qadosh Stephanos
The people of Paul are stubborn. They instill that mentality in babes.
In despite of factual, there is an awaking. Some are asking questions.
The true facts of revelation is that it is given from the Holy Spirit.
Revelation is titled as a book in the Bibles. But there is more stuff.
The other revelation is when the Messiah reveals all things to people.
It is very difficult to explain revelation to Church's of Paul people.
Those secular Paul religions are precarious, unstable, and unyielding.
Hypocrisy is the teachings of Paul's doctrines. Not many can see them.
They have chosen to follow a Pharisee who saw lights and heard voices.
It is somewhat remarkable that the Anti-Christ has ruled the Church's.
Yet nobody has eyes, or ears, or any such power against those whore's.
These are facts of banging your head on a brick wall. A waste of time.
Read The Bible
> liar and the truth is not in him.
Rather, Paul isn't a liar and the truth is in him;
he taught the true gospel of the Messiah
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47).
> Snow said: The laws of the Torah were in fact
> confirmed by the Messiah Yeshua.
The Messiah Yeshua did not confirm all of the laws
of the Old Covenant Torah (John 8:5-11, Matthew
19:7-9, 5:31-44). And his one-time New Covenant
sacrifice of Himself for our sins (Matthew 26:28)
completely and forever replaced all of the laws of
the Old Covenant Torah regarding sacrifices for sin
(Hebrews 10:1-23); otherwise His death would be in
vain (Galatians 2:21).
> Snow said: Mat 18:16
There the Messiah brought an element of the Old
Covenant Torah into His New Covenant Torah; Matthew
18:16 in no way says or requires that every other
element of the Old Covenant Torah is also included
His New Covenant Torah.
> Snow said: 1Ti 1:20 ... He does not account for any
> trial before the assembly or even a rebuke.
That's different than saying that there was no trial
before the assembly and no rebuke. Paul could have
rebuked them many times, and perfectly gone through
the steps commanded by the Messiah in Matthew
18:16-17, before pronouncing excommunication for
unrepentant blasphemy. To falsely accuse Paul of not
obeying Messiah when one has no proof of that, makes
oneself a false witness.
> Snow said: 1Co 5:1 ... Fornication as is not so
> much... doctrine of Balam as recorded in Rev. 2.
"Such fornication as is not so much as named among
the Gentiles" in no ways mean that such fornication
is no big deal, but exactly the opposite; it means
that such fornication is such a big deal that even
unbelieving Gentiles are ashamed to ever even mention
it. Revelation 2:14 has nothing to do with Paul, for
he always taught strenuously against all forms of
fornication (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 10:8, 5:11,
Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6; 2 Corinthians
12:21, Ephesians 5:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:3, Romans
1:29).
> Snow said: 1Co 5:5 ... It says nothing about
> witnesses
That's different than saying that there were no
witnesses. Nothing requires that the church in
Corinth didn't go through the steps commanded by the
Messiah in Matthew 18:16-17 before pronouncing
excommunication (1 Corinthians 5:13) for unrepentant
fornication. To claim that it didn't without any
proof is to bear false witness against the church in
Corinth.
> Snow said: The Messiah came to deliver us from the
> accusor not to him
If the Messiah permitted Satan to sift Peter like
wheat (Luke 22:31-34) when Peter wasn't in any
unrepentant sin, then how much more would the Messiah
permit Satan to sift a believer who is in unrepentant
sin. If the Messiah allowed the messenger of Satan to
buffet Paul not for any unrepentant sin, but to keep
Paul humble (2 Corinthians 12:7), then how much more
would the Messiah allow Satan to buffet a believer
who is in unrepentant sin.
> Snow said: I will never follow a man who allowed
> his followers to receive him as the Messiah and El
Galatians 4:14 doesn't mean that the Galatians
thought that Paul was the Messiah or God, but that
they showed him great kindness (Galatians 4:15).
Messiah said that those who received His messengers
received Him and God (John 13:20).
> Snow said: He claims for himself the "power of
> Christ" and has become Messiah to the
> uncircumcised.
Paul never claimed to be the Messiah to anyone; he
said he was merely a servant (Romans 1:1), the least
apostle (1 Corinthians 15:9), of the Messiah.
Regarding power, all Paul claimed was that the power
of the Messiah rested upon him in his physical
weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9). The Messiah gives His
power to believers so that they might be able to do
what He wants them to do (Matthew 10:1, Luke 10:19,
24:49, Acts 1:8, 6:8, Revelation 2:26, 11:6).
> Snow said: The Messiah called on us to repent and
> obey the prophets and Moses and died for the
> forgiveness of the sins of many.
The Messiah didn't call on us to obey Moses (John
8:5-11, Matthew 5:19:7-9, 5:31-44) but to obey Him
(John 14:15); He said that just one of His
commandments encompassed the law of Moses and the
prophets (Matthew 7:12).
Paul always called on us to repent (Acts 20:21,
26:20, Romans 2:4) and to obey the New Covenant
commandments of the Messiah (1 Thessalonians 4:2;
1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul always taught that the
Messiah died for the forgiveness of our sins (Romans
5:6-11; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> Guardian Snow said on Oct 24, 4:14 am: Hebrews
> calls something Elohim made, "Weak" and
> "Unprofitable".
Hebrews 7:18 means that the law of Moses was unable
to deal with the sin nature in man; it couldn't make
anyone perfect (Hebrews 7:19) like Messiah Himself
can (Hebrews 10:14; 1 John 1:9). It's like someone
with a gaping wound in his chest looking to a diamond
to help him; even though that diamond is strong and
profitable in itself, it is weak and unprofitable for
what that man needs most; he needs a doctor, a living
person to come and clean out and close up his wound.
Even though "the law is holy, and the commandment
holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12), it can never
free us from sin; we need the Messiah, a living
Person, to come and set us free (John 8:34-36).
Guardian Snow
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to
his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath
warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to
our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to
raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees:
therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that
cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to
bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Peace
Abrams1117
This is a perfect example of how you read scripture. You see what is
not there and do not see what is there. Did I say anything at all
about you having to agree with him?
No.
Peter defended Paul, you make yourself greater than Peter.
Since you continue with your judging and vile statements: - 'I deny
your false god' - in my opinion you are not being fooled by Satan, you
follow him by choice.
Your god denies Peter, Luke and Timothy and makes you greater than
Peter; enjoy 'your' false god.
Guardian Snow
Abrams1117 wrote:
>
> This is a perfect example of how you read scripture. You see what is
> not there and do not see what is there. Did I say anything at all
> about you having to agree with him?
>
> No.
>
> Peter defended Paul, you make yourself greater than Peter.
2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you
also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
delusion of the lawless,
See, I don't see a warning against brother Saul as a defense. Clearly
Acts 15:7 tells you that you were to learn the gospel by Peter. You
judge me instead of the scriptures I put in front of your eyes to
support my statements and thats how you, like your false apostle,
evade and divide men. It's not about me, it's about whats in
scriptures and El's truth.
> Since you continue with your judging and vile statements: - 'I deny
> your false god' - in my opinion you are not being fooled by Satan, you
> follow him by choice.
>
> Your god denies Peter, Luke and Timothy and makes you greater than
> Peter; enjoy 'your' false god.
Keep your opinion brother, I don't deny the Elohim of Hebrew
scriptures and Moses, the prophets, I agree with the gospels and John,
Peter, James... The only author I have issue with in scriptures are
the ones the Messiah and Peter warned against, "The leaven of the
pharisee".
Mar 8:15 And He was warning them, saying, "Mind! Beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees and of the leaven of Herodes."
Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain
prophets and teachers; ... which had been brought up with Herod the
tetrarch, and Saul.
I love the El of Abraham, Isaac and David and I establish his laws and
his Sabbath, can you say the same?
Exo 31:12 And Yahweh spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Exo 31:13 "And you, speak to the children of Yisra' l, saying, 'My
Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign1 between Me
and you throughout your generations, to know that I,Yahweh , am
setting you apart. Footnote: 1The only sign of Yahweh setting us
apart, the only sign of the everlasting covenant, is His Sabbaths, one
of them being the seventh day Sabbath. This is repeated in Ezek. 20:12
& 20.
Exo 31:14 'And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to
you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for
anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his
people.
Exo 31:15 'Six days work is done, and on the seventh is a Sabbath of
rest, set-apart to Yahweh . Everyone doing work on the Sabbath day
shall certainly be put to death.
Exo 31:16 'And the children of Yisra' l shall guard the Sabbath, to
observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting
covenant.
Exo 31:17 'Between Me and the children of Yisra' l it is a sign
forever. For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth,
and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "
Exo 31:18 And when He had ended speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He
gave Mosheh two tablets of the Witness, tablets of stone, written with
the finger of Elohim.
Deu 32:3 "For I proclaim the Name of Yahweh , Ascribe greatness to
our Elohim.
Guardian Snow
> Peter defended Paul, you make yourself greater than Peter.
>
> Since you continue with your judging and vile statements: - 'I deny
> your false god' - in my opinion you are not being fooled by Satan, you
> follow him by choice.
>
> Your god denies Peter, Luke and Timothy and makes you greater than
> Peter; enjoy 'your' false god.>Fine by me. My God,
> > inspired King David and made a covenant with him that his throne would
> > endure forever. You keep your false god Paul and I'll have faith in
> > Yahweh of the Hebrew religion.
2Pe 3:14 So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your
utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
2Pe 3:15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also
our beloved brother Sha'ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given
to him,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these
matters, in which some are hard to understand,1 which those who are
untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also
the other Scriptures. Footnote: 1See 1 Cor. 11:6.
2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you
also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
delusion of the lawless,
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and
Saviour Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that
abides. Am n.
I find it interesting that my brother always read this passage and
tell me, See, Peter supported Paul in his ministry. Then they go
through and highlight the words "UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE" as if to imply
that I'm stupid for holding my beliefs against brother Saul.
I consider the time when Peter wrote this epistle, during the Roman
Empire and logically if I wanted to make sure that my warning wasn't
destroyed (as his gospel was) I would code my words carefully as they
did in Revelations by John.
It is clearly a warning about the scriptures written by Paul and both
sides will agree to this part of the issue. One side will say, it's
warning me to except his epistle blindly as they do but the way I see
it is very much the opposite. I say this because serious bible
students understand that Peter was given the authority of the Church
of the Messiah.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven.
That is a tremendous authority when you consider it. What did Peter
bind?
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear
the word of the gospel, and believe.
By the mouth of Peter the Gentiles were to learn the word of the
gospel, and believe. Not by the mouth of Paul as modern Christians
subscribe to. But, going back to Peter's warning what does it say to
me?
2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you
also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the
delusion of the lawless,
We all know that we can judge a tree by it's fruit and the fruit of
Paul's doctrine is division and lawlessness. Every post and every
thread contains his fruit where brothers, Pastors and other men of
faith run around calling each other STUPID, DEVIL, SATAN and a hundred
other wicked names.
Eze 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the
earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land,
and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of
their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served
themselves of them.
But consider this passage in Eze 34. Those that served themselves.
Is that what these "Christians" are doing? Going around puffed up
screaming at each other and looking to make each other appear
ignorant? I've been accused of the same thing, heck, just today, but
I don't believe it. It's not about showing other people I'm right and
they are wrong, it's about bring out the truth. The truth is, we are
to keep His Sabbath and our Father's Commandments are to be
established. I really don't see how that serves me, it's about El,
the rock of Israel and the creator of the heavens and earth.
Thats my opinion,
Snow
Linda Lee
> On Oct 17, 3:21?pm,LindaLee<lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 16, 9:46 pm, Qadosh Stephanos <qadosh.stepha...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:06:39 -0700, Guardian Snowpheonix
>
> > > <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> > > >Are you Getting the Picture?
>
> > > >PAULINE CHRISTIANITY and anyone else who takes Paul's Words as Gospel
> > > >has failed the test of DEUT 13:1-5!!
>
> > > >It is disturbing to think, we really didn't love YHWH with all our
> > > >heart, because we were not looking for the false prophet. Well now you
> > > >can say "HallaluYAH." I've found him, and cast him from my midst!!
>
> > > >SHALOM
>
> > > Your topic subject title was tricky and somewhat allusive.
>
> > > But it does bring to mind Paul's smorgasbord of dual lies.
>
> > > The preachers of Paul contend with the law and 10 percent.
>
> > > They preach laws nullified then they preach about tithing.
>
> > > They contend about 10 commandants which they never follow.
>
> > > They permit Paul's woman to teach, despite what Paul said.
>
> > > Painting pictures of the blond long haired Messiah.
>
> > > Yet their Apostle Paul denounced long haired males.
>
> > > Foundations of Truth are revealed by God in Spirit.
>
> > > The dogs of the Pharisees are corruptions of Truth.
>
> > > They that sell doctrine are feeding the lost venom.
>
> > > The tree of knowledge, snakes of mendicant healing.
>
> > LOL. That is how Paul saw himself, as the greatest apostle. ROFLOL. I
> > am surprised those who accept Paul's preaching also don't accept the
> > new 'revelation' given the Islamic 'prophet' Mohammed. Or Joseph Smith
> > who also got some new revelation after the death of the Messiah. We
> > don't need any of those false prophets; the Messiah accomplished his
> > mission and taught who he wanted to teach the message he wanted
> > preached. As he said on the cross: "It is finished". I guess the
> > Pauline worshippers assume they forgot to write down "It is finished",
> > 'but soon I will send the greatest apostle of all - Paul - to give you
> > the real message'.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> that made him unbelievable because I realized...Same as Mohammed and
> Joseph Smith...Hit by bright lights...I pointed that out for a while
> to the people I was speaking to about it at the time.
> Debra- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, and Paul was just about as necessary as Smith and Mohammed, in
other words, totally unnecessary as well as false.
Yeshua` said upon his death, "It is finished". We don't need Smith,
Mohammed, and Paul.
Linda Lee
wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:55:58 -0700,LindaLee<lindagirl...@juno.com>
>
> The other tale of the Kobrin book is yet another facade of atheism.
>
> It appear's there is a congenial effort to discredit God's reality.-
No kidding! Satan never gives up.
Linda Lee
> Guardian Snow quoted a link on Oct 16, 8:13 pm:
>
> > Rom 4:5 ... Does the father really justify the
> > wicked?
>
> Of course, or none of us would be justified (Matthew
> 18:11, 9:13, 26:28, Romans 5:6-11).
>
> > Snow quoted: Ex 23:7 ... Prov 17:15
>
> Those refer to the unrepentant, not to the repentant
> (Ezekiel 33:11).
>
> > Snow quoted: If you believe what Paul says, that
> > would mean the Father Himself would be an
> > Abomination
>
> Rather, if one would believe what the Bible says in
> both the Old Testament and the New Testament, that
> would mean that the Father Himself is one merciful
> God (Psalms 51, Luke 6:36; 1 Peter 1:3, 2:10;
> 2 John 1:3, Jude 1:2,21).
>
> > Snow quoted: 2Cor 12:16
>
> The context shows clearly that Paul was using irony
> to point out that he had not deceived or harmed the
> Corinthians in any way.
>
> > Snow quoted: 2Cor 11:8
>
> Paul was using hyperbole, as the same verse clearly
> shows that what he took from the churches was his
> wages for ministering to them.
>
> > Snow quoted: Did Daniel say he would boast?
>
> Paul never boasted in himself, but always said it was
> God who did through him any good things that he did,
> as in 1 Corinthians 15:10. See also 2 Corinthians
> 10:17-18.
>
> > Snow quoted: Gal 5:14
>
> That's what Jesus Himself taught (Matthew 7:12).
>
> > Snow quoted: Gal 4:14
>
> Again, that's what Jesus Himself taught (Matthew
> 10:40, John 13:20).
>
> > Snow quoted: [they say] All You Have To Do is
> > Believe!
>
> Jesus Himself sometimes emphasized belief alone
> (John 6:28-29, 3:16), as did the apostles (1 Peter
> 1:9; 1 John 5:13).
>
> > Snow quoted: [they say] IT'S BY THE BLOOD!
>
> Of course it is; that's what Jesus Himself taught
> (Matthew 26:28), as did the apostles (1 John 1:7,
> Revelation 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2,19).
>
> > Snow quoted: Show me one place where Messiah
> > himself used the word "Grace."
>
> His actions spoke grace louder than any word (John
> 8:5-11; compare John 1:17,16,14).
>
> > Snow quoted: what is the true criteria for the
> > title "Apostle"?
>
> Being sent by Jesus: "I send (apostello) thee" (Acts
> 26:17).
>
> > Snow quoted: one must have walked with Messiah from
> > the baptism of John, been ordained, and witnessed
> > the Resurrection!
>
> That was the requirement to be one of the twelve
> apostles (Acts 1:21-26), not to be an apostle at all,
> like the apostle Barnabas (Acts 14:14,4) or the
> apostle James the Lord's brother (Galatians 1:19).
> And the apostle Paul was a witness of Jesus'
> resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:4-10, 9:1).
>
> > Snow quoted: REV 2:2
>
> That's referring to false apostles which came to
> Ephesus after Paul left there (Acts 20:29-30).
> Paul was a true apostle (Acts 26:17-18) beloved by
> the Ephesians (Acts 20:37-38).
>
> > Snow quoted: 2Tim 1:15
>
> That's referring to how everyone forsook Paul during
> his trial before Caesar in Rome (2 Timothy 4:16).
> They did so not for any doctrinal reasons, but out
> of fear for their own lives, just as everyone forsook
> Jesus Himself (Mark 14:50) when He was arrested.
>
> > Snow quoted: Rom 2:16
>
> That means that, according to the gospel preached by
> Jesus (John 5:22) and by Paul (2 Timothy 4:1), God
> shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.
>
> > Snow quoted: Rom 16:25 ... I thought it was
> > Messiah's Gospel we were supposed to hear.
>
> Paul made very clear that the gospel preached by him
> was Messiah's Gospel (Galatians 1:12,6-9).
>
> > Snow quoted: Torah is the only thing that Messiah
> > taught and did
>
> Messiah taught and did some things contrary to the
> Torah (Matthew 5:31-48, 19:7-9, John 8:5-11), and He
> supported the apostles when they broke the Sabbath
> in Matthew 12:1-8.
>
> > Snow quoted: Phil [3:17] ... Doesn't Revelation
> > 14:11 talk about taking "The Mark" of the Beast?
>
> Philippians 3:17 uses a completely different word in
> Greek than Revelation 14:11, one with a completely
> different meaning; the "mark" in Philippians 3:17 is
> the Greek verb "skopeo" which means to "regard",
> while the "mark" in Revelation 14:11 is the Greek
> noun "charagma" which means "a scratch or etching".
> The English word "scarify" is similarly defined as
> "to make scratches or small cuts in (as the skin)"
> (Webster's), so that the mark of the Antichrist could
> be made through scarification; it could be carved
> into one's hand or forehead with a knife, leaving an
> indelible scar.
>
> > Snow quoted: Rev 13:3
>
> That isn't referring to Paul because the whole world
> has never wondered after Paul about anything, not
> even Acts 14:19-20. Revelation 13:3 is referring to
> the Antichrist who, after the deadly wound is healed,
> will rule all nations for 42 months (Revelation
> 13:5-7).
>
> *******
> (A Subsequent Poster)
>
> >LindaLeesaid on Oct 17, 9:55 am: That is how Paul
> > saw himself, as the greatest apostle.
>
> I am the least of the apostles" (1 Corinthians 15:9).
>
> >Lindasaid: I am surprised those who accept Paul's
> > preaching also don't accept the new 'revelation'
>
> Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our
> sins and rose from the dead on the third day, so it
> preaches another gospel than Jesus and Paul preached
> (Luke 24:46-47; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4); and Paul
> expressly warned us against any other gospels, even
> those which are claimed to have come through an angel
> (Galatians 1:6-9).
>
> >Lindasaid: "It is finished".
>
> Jesus' first-coming work was finished (John 17:4) on
> the cross (John 19:30), but the preaching of His
> gospel wasn't finished, for it had to reach all the
> nations on the earth (Matthew 24:14, 28:19-20), and
> the apostle Paul played a big part in spreading the
> gospel of Jesus Christ to other nations (Romans
> 15:19).
>
> *******
> (A Subsequent Poster)
>
> > Debra said on Oct 19, 11:59 am: comparing of
> > verses... Paul to himself...Paul to the Messiah...
> > and Paul to The Old Testament...
>
> Paul nowhere contradicts himself, the Messiah, or
> the Old Testament.
>
> *******
> (A Subsequent Poster)
>
> > Guardian Snow said on Oct 20, 5:45 am: I started
> > with Galatians and Acts and compared the two.
>
> There is no contradiction between Galatians and Acts.
Then read it again. One is Paul's story to Luke, one is Paul's story
to the Galatians. You are blind if you think Paul did not at times
contradict the Messiah, the Hebrew Scriptures, and even himself.
I didn't say It is finished, Yeshua` did. He had everything in place
needed for our salvation when he died and resurrected. He didn't come
right back and appoint a new apostle like Paul lies occurred to him,
although he may have been deceived by the Devil and is not to blame,
but repeated murders and persecution like he engaged in would open one
to the Devil's influence.
Of course the preaching of hiYeshua`'s gospel wasn't finished, but he
appointed his own apostles and never bothered to convert Paul who was
alive at the same period.
"It is finished" years before Paul came along.
guardian Snow
> Rather, Paul isn't a liar and the truth is in him;
> he taught the true gospel of the Messiah
> (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47).
I see and Matthew, Mark, Luke John, James, Simon Peter didn't right?
> > Snow said: The laws of the Torah were in fact
> > confirmed by the Messiah Yeshua.
I'll just snip all these replies of his false Messiah Paul.
Apparently Jesus needed Paul to do all his salvation work and couldn't
just say it himself.
(snip)
> > Snow said: Mat 18:16
>
> There the Messiah brought an element of the Old
> Covenant Torah into His New Covenant Torah; Matthew
> 18:16 in no way says or requires that every other
> element of the Old Covenant Torah is also included
> His New Covenant Torah.
Like your false Messiah your talking in circles.
Mat 18:7 "Woe to the world because of stumbling-blocks! For it is
necessary that stumbling-blocks come, but woe to that man by whom the
stumbling-block comes!
> > Snow said: 1Co 5:5 ... It says nothing about
> > witnesses
>
> That's different than saying that there were no
> witnesses. Nothing requires that the church in
> Corinth didn't go through the steps commanded by the
> Messiah in Matthew 18:16-17 before pronouncing
> excommunication (1 Corinthians 5:13) for unrepentant
> fornication. To claim that it didn't without any
> proof is to bear false witness against the church in
> Corinth.
But the same is true in reverse. It clearly is not written that they
did and so you are bearing a false witness. Paul NEVER made that
claim. While you are quick to talk in circles about covenants your
not keeping, you are always the ones adding words to Paul and
"interpreting". I don't need to interpret, Outside of parables Yeshua
was very clear and I don't need the stumbling blocks to teach me what
he said, I can read the gospel myself. I can stand on his words
because we do have two and three witnesses to those words.
Because his words (Yeshua) can stand by Torah law, I can count on his
grace but I MUST take on HIS YOKE. Paul "did not burden" you with
that Yoke, his is the burden of the stumbling block. I respect that
maybe you feel you must defend his lies for some reason and it makes
no difference to me. I find it amusing that you always go Mat..
Roms.. Heb or something like that order to explain your doctrine.
Keep it, it's yours brother, own it.
You take your "liberty" and your "dead works" and "hope" that is saves
you. I'll take Peter's warning to heart.
2Pe 1:5 And for this reason do your utmost to add to your belief
uprightness, to uprightness knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control endurance, to
endurance reverence,
2Pe 1:7 to reverence brotherly affection, and to brotherly affection
love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these are in you and increase, they cause you to be
neither inactive nor without fruit in the knowledge of our Master
Messiah.
2Pe 1:9 For he in whom these are not present is blind, being
shortsighted, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his old
sins.
2Pe 1:10 For this reason, brothers, all the more do your utmost to
make firm your calling and choosing,1 for if you are doing these
matters you shall never stumble at all, Footnote: 1Mt. 20:16, Mt.
22:14, Rev. 17:14.
2Pe 1:11 for in this way an entrance into the everlasting reign of our
Master and Saviour Messiah shall be richly supplied to you.
With brotherly love,
Snow
Ed Form
> 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye
> baptized in the name of Paul?
This is absolutely typical of you, Snow. This verse is an argument
*against* following Paul. Can't you read?
Here is tyhe verse in context...
Now I beseech you, brethren,
by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you;
but that ye be perfectly joined together
in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren,
by them which are of the house of Chloe,
that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith,
I am of Paul; and I of Apollos;
and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Members of the household of Chloe had reported to Paul that members of the
ecclesia at Corinth were divided with some saying they were followers of
Paul, some saying they were followers of Apollos, some saying they were
followers of Peter, and some saying they were followers of Christ. Paul's
reply was very plain indeed. He asked these factions what they thought they
were doing...
Is Christ divided?
In other words, is there more than one Christ? Are there differetn ways to
be in Christ?
The answer to so plain a question is obviously : No! This would have come
as quite a shock to the disputing factions. They'd all been converted to
belief in Christ and were all baptised into his death, so they should be
one body and not a divided and dispute-ridden house. Paaul then went on to
ask what they thought they were doing claiming special association with him
[or anyone else but Christ]...
was Paul crucified for you?
or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
The answer is again obviously: No! They were baptised into the one and only
Christ, so claiming to be special because they were followers of Paul or
Appollos or Peter was stupid. None of those three had won salvation for
them and consequently claiming to be specially related to them, at the
expense of the single necessary fellowship in Christ was foolishness.
Paul goes further still; in the existing circumstances, with daft people
claiming factional privileges and importance on the grounds of association
with himself he was acutely aware that, had he baptised large numbers of
the brothers and sisters at Corinth he might have been accused of baptising
in his own name. So he thank's God for preventing that complication of this
bad situation...
I thank God that I baptized none of you,
but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:
besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
In other words, it was so unimportant who actually did the baptising that
he couldn't even remember whether he had baptised others. He then states
clearly that...
...Christ sent me not to baptize,
but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
From a man with so wwonderful a command of language, this is a remarkable
statement. People were not to be made to believe because of Paul's
rhetorical talents but by way of the simple message of Christ crucified.
This is yet another example of an accusation against Paul, from you, based
on an apparent inability to read plain English. If you took a claim like
that into a courtroom the judge, and every member of the jury would have to
be excused while they changed their trousers - having pissed themselves
laughing.
I actually find it astonishing that anyone can [possibly be as stupid as
you, Snow. You reel off accusation after accusation against Paul with no
shred of evidence or proof. Read the Bible - read what it says, not what
you have decided in advance that it must say, and you might find out the
truth. At the moment you're just a wandering false accuser with no hope of
any kind.
Ed Form
guardian Snow
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:43:31 -0700, Guardian Snow wrote:
> > 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye
> > baptized in the name of Paul?
>
> This is absolutely typical of you, Snow. This verse is an argument
> *against* following Paul. Can't you read?
>
> Here is tyhe verse in context...
>
> Now I beseech you, brethren,
> by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
> that ye all speak the same thing,
> and that there be no divisions among you;
Yes brother one mind just like the great abomination church
prophesied.
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell
you, Nay; but rather division:
> but that ye be perfectly joined together
> in the same mind and in the same judgment.
> For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren,
> by them which are of the house of Chloe,
> that there are contentions among you.
> Now this I say, that every one of you saith,
> I am of Paul; and I of Apollos;
> and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the
father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and
shall cause them to be put to death.
Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
> Members of the household of Chloe had reported to Paul that members of the
> ecclesia at Corinth were divided with some saying they were followers of
> Paul, some saying they were followers of Apollos, some saying they were
> followers of Peter, and some saying they were followers of Christ. Paul's
> reply was very plain indeed. He asked these factions what they thought they
> were doing...
>
> Is Christ divided?
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell
you, Nay; but rather division:
> In other words, is there more than one Christ? Are there differetn ways to
> be in Christ?
1Co 5:4 .. when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the
power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Co 12:9 ..that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
1Co 4:15 ...For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the
gospel.
> The answer to so plain a question is obviously : No! This would have come
> as quite a shock to the disputing factions. They'd all been converted to
> belief in Christ and were all baptised into his death, so they should be
> one body and not a divided and dispute-ridden house. Paaul then went on to
> ask what they thought they were doing claiming special association with him
> [or anyone else but Christ]...
>
> was Paul crucified for you?
> or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ
AND him crucified.
> The answer is again obviously: No! They were baptised into the one and only
> Christ, so claiming to be special because they were followers of Paul or
> Appollos or Peter was stupid. None of those three had won salvation for
> them and consequently claiming to be specially related to them, at the
> expense of the single necessary fellowship in Christ was foolishness.
>
> Paul goes further still; in the existing circumstances, with daft people
> claiming factional privileges and importance on the grounds of association
> with himself he was acutely aware that, had he baptised large numbers of
> the brothers and sisters at Corinth he might have been accused of baptising
> in his own name. So he thank's God for preventing that complication of this
> bad situation...
>
> I thank God that I baptized none of you,
> but Crispus and Gaius;
> Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
> And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:
> besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Act 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord,
together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians
hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
> In other words, it was so unimportant who actually did the baptising that
> he couldn't even remember whether he had baptised others. He then states
> clearly that...
>
> ...Christ sent me not to baptize,
> but to preach the gospel:
> not with wisdom of words,
> lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on
Christ.
> From a man with so wwonderful a command of language, this is a remarkable
> statement. People were not to be made to believe because of Paul's
> rhetorical talents but by way of the simple message of Christ crucified.
>
>
> Ed Form
I find it interesting you choose to ignore the bold face lies in front
of your face and I didn't do them.
Gal 1:20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
Ed Form
> On Oct 31, 8:11 am, Ed Form <ed.f...@workgroupsolutions.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:43:31 -0700, Guardian Snow wrote:
>>> 1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye
>>> baptized in the name of Paul?
>>
>> This is absolutely typical of you, Snow. This verse is an argument
>> *against* following Paul. Can't you read?
>>
>> Here is tyhe verse in context...
>>
>> Now I beseech you, brethren,
>> by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
>> that ye all speak the same thing,
>> and that there be no divisions among you;
>
> Yes brother one mind just like the great abomination church
> prophesied.
> Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell
> you, Nay; but rather division:
Are you suggesting that Christ came to found a divided church? hat's what
the verse says, *if* as you aver, it refers to the church.
Christ's words were a quotation from Micah 7 and were addressed tot he fact
thatt he jews wouldn't believe in him and would actually attempt to harm
those who did, including, in many cases, members of their own families. Now
you tell us we should return to the way of the Jews and can only be saved
if we follow the Law. Nonsense: the Law is dead, and Jesus said it would
die with his own sacrifice - there is no need for the symbol when the
reality has arrived.
>> but that ye be perfectly joined together
>> in the same mind and in the same judgment.
>> For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren,
>> by them which are of the house of Chloe,
>> that there are contentions among you.
>> Now this I say, that every one of you saith,
>> I am of Paul; and I of Apollos;
>> and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
>
> Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the
> father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and
> shall cause them to be put to death.
> Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
This is exactly what I've already said. The Law-following Jews wouldn't
accept Jesus because they said he didn't keep the Law - they constantly
accused him of breaking the sabbath, for example; yet you say he confirmed
the Sabbath - he didn't, not even a hint of it. Publish the verses that
show Jesus confrming the Sabbath as applicable to Christians.
>> Members of the household of Chloe had reported to Paul that members of the
>> ecclesia at Corinth were divided with some saying they were followers of
>> Paul, some saying they were followers of Apollos, some saying they were
>> followers of Peter, and some saying they were followers of Christ. Paul's
>> reply was very plain indeed. He asked these factions what they thought they
>> were doing...
>>
>> Is Christ divided?
>
> Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell
> you, Nay; but rather division:
So what you're saying is that Christ is divided?
>> In other words, is there more than one Christ? Are there differetn ways to
>> be in Christ?
>
> 1Co 5:4 .. when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the
> power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
> 2Co 12:9 ..that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
> 1Co 4:15 ...For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the
> gospel.
What exactly do you think is wrong with any of those statements? The first
was written in connection with the sinful behaviour of a member at Corinth
who was sleeping with his stepmother. Paul advised that this man should be
expelled - put back in the world he had endorsed by his behaviour so that
he might eventually realise his wickedness, repent, and be saved. If you
had done a little work, you'd have found this evrsion of the verse...
In the name of the Lord Yeshua,
when you are assembled,
*with me present spiritually*
and the power of our Lord Yeshua among us...
Paul makes no claim of any kind to be the equal of Christ. Again you accuse
him falsely.
>> The answer to so plain a question is obviously : No! This would have come
>> as quite a shock to the disputing factions. They'd all been converted to
>> belief in Christ and were all baptised into his death, so they should be
>> one body and not a divided and dispute-ridden house. Paaul then went on to
>> ask what they thought they were doing claiming special association with him
>> [or anyone else but Christ]...
>>
>> was Paul crucified for you?
>> or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
>
> 1Co 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ
> AND him crucified.
How exactly does that verse show Paul in a bad light? You've jusst quoted a
verse that confirms what I said. Don't you understand English?
>> The answer is again obviously: No! They were baptised into the one and only
>> Christ, so claiming to be special because they were followers of Paul or
>> Appollos or Peter was stupid. None of those three had won salvation for
>> them and consequently claiming to be specially related to them, at the
>> expense of the single necessary fellowship in Christ was foolishness.
>>
>> Paul goes further still; in the existing circumstances, with daft people
>> claiming factional privileges and importance on the grounds of association
>> with himself he was acutely aware that, had he baptised large numbers of
>> the brothers and sisters at Corinth he might have been accused of baptising
>> in his own name. So he thank's God for preventing that complication of this
>> bad situation...
>>
>> I thank God that I baptized none of you,
>> but Crispus and Gaius;
>> Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
>> And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:
>> besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
>
> Act 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord,
> together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians
> hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
Where does that verse say that Paul baptised them? Read the words!
>> In other words, it was so unimportant who actually did the baptising that
>> he couldn't even remember whether he had baptised others. He then states
>> clearly that...
>>
>> ...Christ sent me not to baptize,
>> but to preach the gospel:
>> not with wisdom of words,
>> lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
>
>
> Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on
> Christ.
What have you quoted that for? Explain what you mean. The verse is just
Paul telling believers what their status is after baptism. It is wholly in
keeping with the teachings of Jesus.
>> From a man with so wwonderful a command of language, this is a remarkable
>> statement. People were not to be made to believe because of Paul's
>> rhetorical talents but by way of the simple message of Christ crucified.
>
> I find it interesting you choose to ignore the bold face lies in front
> of your face and I didn't do them.
There are no lies, and you certainly haven't shown any. Don't you realise
how stupidly your behaving? Paul taught the truth and his teachings were
completely in harmony with the teachings of Jesus.
Ed Form
guardian Snow
> There are no lies, and you certainly haven't shown any. Don't you realise
> how stupidly your behaving? Paul taught the truth and his teachings were
> completely in harmony with the teachings of Jesus.
>
> Ed Form
I can respect what your saying, even if I'm not given that respect in
return brother. It's not about me it's about all of us, including
myself. I can't show you the truth, only you can open your own eyes
and realize it for yourself. We do have different perspectives and
thats what I'd like to talk to you about. From your perspective you
see me trying to say, I'm right and your wrong. I can respect that
position because I hold it too and in that I'm a hypocrite but with
respect for you.
What you see is a beautiful sounding doctrine of truth and what I see
is a con man who caught you with craft.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be
transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be
according to their works.
You see this statement as a warning against people like me.
I see this statement as a self admission to confuse you. Having
worked in Law enforcement I've seen the tactic many times, the
criminal gives you a diversion to through you off the trail. It
worked on me for many years with Paul and in that, I am not better
then you.
You see my hypocrisy and say, this stupid jerk is just looking for
things to discredit Christianity and to that extent, your right
because it's a religion based in deception of it's followers and it is
the beast church of Revelation and the cross is the mark of the beast
that Paul also bears.
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body
the marks of the Lord Jesus.
This is the Mark of the Beast that you are looking for and you can't
see that hidden truth because of one simple fact and you are not going
to like my answer.
You do not know your Shepard and you do not bear the yoke of the
Messiah by keeping his Sabbath.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Since he is Lord of the Sabbath, you choose another.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if
another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Paul did not come in the name of Yeshua the Messiah and this you will
not except because you do not realize that I am only trying to lead
you back to him and not to my own belief.
Col 4:18 The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds.
Grace be with you. Amen.
You have taken his bonds and rejected the yoke of the Messiah for one
who "did not burden you"
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
You will not agree with me because you love another and not Elohim and
Messiah Yeshua.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the
one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise
the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
You have chosen not to serve God by keeping his Sabbath and so you
serve another.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in
the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same
shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also
transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and,
He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother,
It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your
tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and
honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
It is your choice that you have made to follow the AntiChrist that is
in the bible that came after Jesus. When Christ uttered these words,
he wasn't just talking about a temple. A temple is a building that he
cares nothing for... He was talking to YOU and me and people..
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Qadosh Stephanos
<snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>It is your choice that you have made to follow the AntiChrist that is
>in the bible that came after Jesus. When Christ uttered these words,
>he wasn't just talking about a temple. A temple is a building that he
>cares nothing for... He was talking to YOU and me and people..
Who is AntiChrist, I mean in the revaluation that God had sent to you.
How did you discover the fact? Did you have experiences in the Spirit?
Interested to know if you had the same encounter as me and the others.
Mistylien
SNOW HAS PROVEN TO BE A TROLL AND NOT A FRIEND OF CHRISTIANS.
"Ed Form" <ed....@workgroupsolutions.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9lnx9co5qr7y.x...@40tude.net...
guardian Snow
> SNOW HAS PROVEN TO BE A TROLL AND NOT A FRIEND OF CHRISTIANS.
Your right, I'm not a friend of "Christians" or the world for that
matter because you go after another and not the Messiah.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the
world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds
were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither
cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it
hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but
because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not
greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also
persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours
also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's
sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had
sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
> "Ed Form" <ed.f...@workgroupsolutions.co.uk> wrote in message
guardian Snow
> I actually find it astonishing that anyone can [possibly be as stupid as
> you, Snow. You reel off accusation after accusation against Paul with no
> shred of evidence or proof. Read the Bible - read what it says, not what
> you have decided in advance that it must say, and you might find out the
> truth. At the moment you're just a wandering false accuser with no hope of
> any kind.
>
> Ed Form
You know, it's interesting because when I consider the writings of the
false prophet and I respect you think otherwise but Lucifer called
Elohim a liar with his gospel of the "uncircumcised". Let me show you
how.
First let's consider Lucifer's words:
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but
the keeping of the commandments of God.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the
concision.
Now the prophets:
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin
is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
hath broken my covenant.
Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear?
Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the
word of the LORD is to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure
in it.
Isa 52:1 Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion; put on your
beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for there shall no
more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Eze 28:10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of
foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."
Hab 2:16 You will have your fill of shame instead of glory. Drink,
yourself, and show your uncircumcision! The cup in the LORD's right
hand will come around to you, and utter shame will come upon your
glory!
5 witnesses against one. Who's word do you take?
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to
them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the
Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from
the dead.'"
This should be an interesting answer.
duke
wrote:
>First let's consider Lucifer's words:
>Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
>Christ shall profit you nothing.
Jews.
>Now the prophets:
>Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin
>is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
>hath broken my covenant.
Jews.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
snowpheonix
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:39:02 -0700, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >First let's consider Lucifer's words:
> >Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
> >Christ shall profit you nothing.
>
> Jews.
>
> >Now the prophets:
> >Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin
> >is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
> >hath broken my covenant.
>
> Jews.
>
> duke, American-American
> *****
> "The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
> *****
The Covenant of Abraham predates Israel in it entirety and by
rejecting Abraham's covenant you have rejected the Elohim of Old
Testament scriptures and chosen Roman Paul's words above all Hebrew
scriptures and your Vicar of Christ as Messiah. I don't say this to
condemn you but to point out that you have made an obvious choice
because scriptures are clear in that prayers to the dead (Mary, St.
Whoever) are called witchcraft. I also find it curious that Catholic
maintain Hebrew scriptures in the canon but reject every word printed
as being for Jew's only. Why keep something in canon if your not
going to apply it to your own life?
I truly hope the path you have chosen is the right one my friend. For
me the symbolisms involved in your religion such as the phallic symbol
in the center of Vatican city trouble me. Thats just my opinion but
in order to follow Elohim of Hebrew scriptures one must choose Sabbath
worship. Hope things work out for you Duke, you seem like a nice,
reasonable person. I apologize if my comments seem offensive because
it is not my wish to do so but only to discuss the deeper issue
involved in scriptures.
With all respect,
Snow
Libertarius
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Abrams1117
Wow....youre lost. Paul fought against the Apostles who were in favor
of 'circumcism'...and won.
They admitted he was right.
guardian Snow
I suppose that depends on who you consider your Father. Is Paul your
Father?
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it
is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise
a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the
law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have
made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
I read this and see that Yeshua is telling us that Circumcision is
Yahweh's Law. That in fact agrees with the prophets and Moses.
Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain
disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain woman, which
was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
Act 16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at
Lystra and Iconium.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and
circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for
they knew all that his father was a Greek.
Are you telling me that Paul is a hypocrite???
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the
Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they
ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the
customs.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come
together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men
which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges
with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that
those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing;
but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Walk orderly and keep the law.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Because they have Moses preached every Sabbath day. What they we're
not to keep was the false teaching. It's interesting how the words of
Peter kept getting scaled back. When he get's into Galatia it is
completely changed to caring for the poor. From what I see, Peter was
making it clear that it was like when the captives were first set free
in Egypt, in time they would learn the truth and make the choice to
follow the Laws of Moses. In other words, it wasn't heaped on them
all at once and the Commandments were the priority.
I realize you have a different take on this so I respect your
understanding. I'm just pointing out different evidence for the
matter of discussion. To the end that would support your conclusion I
say that support can lean in your direction in NT church because of
the fact that none of the other writers outside of Luke and John even
make mention of the practice.
What is clear is that by rejecting circumcision one has rejected
Abraham, Moses and David's Covenant with the Elohim of Old Testament
scriptures having been nullified by Paul who did in fact do the
practice himself.
With respect,
Snow
Abrams1117
This is one of the most respectful and dignified posts I have ever
read.
It is worthy of a thought out response. I am off to work on this.
Thank you.
guardian Snow
I have come to respect all of the creation of El, the rock of our
faith and should not disrespect anybody. Although I have my moments
when I'm tired... I have come to the understanding that I am myself a
hypocrite by insistence that I have to be right. Rather, what has
disturbed me is noticeable omissions of words from the scriptures like
"Sabbath". I apologize in advance if my personal faith offends
anybody.
G4521
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of
weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or
institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval
between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above
applications: - sabbath (day), week.
Joh 20:19 Then3767 the3588 same1565 day2250 at evening,3798 being5607
the3588 first3391 day of the3588 week,4521
Act 20:7 And1161 upon1722 the3588 first3391 day of the3588 week,4521
1Co 16:2 Upon the first2596, 3391 day of the week4521
Joh 20:1 (1161) The3588 first3391 day of the3588 week4521
Luk 24:1 Now1161 upon the3588 first3391 day of the3588 week,4521
Luk 18:12 I fast3522 twice1364 in the3588 week,4521
Mar 16:9 Now1161 when Jesus was risen450 early4404 the first4413 day
of the week,4521
Mar 16:2 And2532 very3029 early in the morning4404 the3588 first3391
day of the3588 week,4521
While my gut tells me the that the source is Roman Catholic doctrine,
I still must respect those of that faith. It is truly a concern to me
that so many inconsistencies are found in doctrine.
On one part we find Paul speaking of example covenant of Hagar but
Ishmael was himself circumcised.
Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was
circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
To me it has caused a great confusion. I see Paul and he is for and
against.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the
circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto
the fathers:
If Christ was "a minister of the circumcision" for the truth, it seems
to me we should be following his teachings and practice as men of
higher understanding, as you are. WWJD?
When I add to this fact the bitter struggle between people on this
message board over differences in doctrines... people calling each
other "Satan, Stupid.. " I won't even bring up Dave's outright evil
hypocrisy.. With respect for him as a human being, he has no business
using the title "Pastor" with a mouth like his, I'm honestly happy he
kill files me. Christ speaks of the prophets and Moses and turns us
to the Law, Paul speaks of example covenants and points to Christ but
then his doctrine is used to refute the Law. He's for it:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
we establish the law.
He's against it...
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.
and we wonder why we have an endless fuel for rage and hatred that we
say one is better then the other. I see a lot of very wise and
intelligent people out there (and dave(joking)) who have true faith
and belief that there doctrine is correct and I wish them all well. I
will not curse anybody or tell anybody that they are going to hell if
they don't believe what I have excepted as truth.
To me, truth is keep the commandments to enter into life.
The Sabbath is a commandment and it to should be kept.
Having an "ordinance against us", "nailed to the cross" is not the
same as nailing the Ten Commandments and Torah Laws to the cross.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Doctrine must agree or be discarded and evidence shows many witnesses
of the Messiah telling us to keep the Commandments even if many
disagree, I personally must stand by that sole fact.
With high regard,
Snow
With deep respect,
Snow
Qadosh Stephanos
It is a very freighting experience for the Father to reveal the truth.
The scariest is when He reveals to His people about that Apostle Paul.
Something unimaginable, so completely unbelievable, and mind boggling.
Here we are contending with what God has revealed to us in the Spirit.
These are attempting to make logic to explain those given revelations.
The facts are evident and clear, but those revelations are disturbing.
Monumental tasks to transform revelations into logical understandings.
The people of Paul Christians and the Church daughters of Catholicism.
Thought is depravation. Questions aren't answered. Ignorance is bliss.
Mistylien
"guardian Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:1193804919.7...@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 31, 1:41 pm, "Mistylien" <yardhol...@charter.net> wrote:
>> SNOW HAS PROVEN TO BE A TROLL AND NOT A FRIEND OF CHRISTIANS.
>
> Your right, I'm not a friend of "Christians" or the world for that
> matter because you go after another and not the Messiah.
>
>
> Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the
> world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds
> were evil.
> Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither
> cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
> Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds
> may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I believe in the Jesus Christ.
and you can read your own choosen out of context passages.
Abrams1117
Ive been busy and havent gotten to that response yet.
Since you mentioned the Sabbath....heres my understanding.
* T-y-p-i-n-g out Scripture sure has its advantages.
The Sabbath in the Millennium
Many people use Colossians 2:16 to teach that we can decide for
ourselves which day to keep holy.
Colossians 2:
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink
in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- NASB
In Colossians 2:16 Paul is quoting Ezekiel 45:17.
Compare Colossians 2:16B to Ezekiel 45:17B.
Colossians 2:16B:
to food or drink in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath
day- NASB
Ezekiel 45:17B:
and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the
new moons, and in the sabbaths
Ezekiel 45:17 teaches that everyone will keep the Sabbath during the
millennium while Jesus Christ rules the Earth.
Ezekiel 45:17:
And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat
offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons,
and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he
shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt
offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the
house of Israel.
The People Shall Worship on the Sabbath
Ezekiel 46:1-3:
46:1: Thus saith the Lord G-D; The gate of the inner court that
looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the
sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be
opened.
46:2: And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate
without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests
shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall
worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the
gate shall not be shut until the evening.
46:3: Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of
this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
The people will keep the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread and
the Feast of Tabernacles during the millennium.
There is no mention of the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Trumpets, the
Day of Atonement, or of the Last Great Day.
But, thats another topic.
guardian Snow
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
I probably haven't made myself clear and I'm sorry about that. I've
almost always spent my time reading the gospels, Revelation and
jumping around the prophets, I've read all of paul of couple of times
and found a lot of his writings were just boring to me. I'm guessing
a lot of other people disagree. But something interesting happened
when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
One person would say Law this, I would say but Jesus said this and
Paul said this.. but there was always fuel to continue the debate.
Then only recently I've come to this different understanding that I'm
sure I've annoyed you with and I'm sorry about that. But, let's say
I'm wrong and it's all just a big misunderstanding... Wouldn't it be
better to error with the words of the Messiah, Son of Elohim instead
of following after Paul?
At least that was my logic. Having read your other thread and taking
that into context I have to agree with you that keeping the law and
faith are the right way to go.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
I'm sorry about the confusion, it was my misunderstanding.
duke
>On Nov 1, 6:26 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:39:02 -0700, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >First let's consider Lucifer's words:
>> >Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
>> >Christ shall profit you nothing.
>>
>> Jews.
>>
>> >Now the prophets:
>> >Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin
>> >is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he
>> >hath broken my covenant.
>The Covenant of Abraham predates Israel in it entirety and by
>rejecting Abraham's covenant you have rejected the Elohim of Old
>Testament scriptures and chosen Roman Paul's words above all Hebrew
>scriptures and your Vicar of Christ as Messiah.
Jesus completed the old covenant as of no more value and started a new covenant.
Heb 8:7-13.
> I don't say this to
>condemn you but to point out that you have made an obvious choice
>because scriptures are clear
Yes they are.
> in that prayers to the dead (Mary, St.
>Whoever) are called witchcraft.
No, you may say that, but not Christianity. By your reasoning, one can never
pray to Jesus but to the Father only in the "Our Father".
To pray is to ask for something.
> I also find it curious that Catholic
>maintain Hebrew scriptures in the canon but reject every word printed
>as being for Jew's only. Why keep something in canon if your not
>going to apply it to your own life?
We don't reject the OT except where the new has replaced the old.
The 10 commandments still are tops, but the 639 Levitical man-made laws are no
more.
guardian Snow
> >The Covenant of Abraham predates Israel in it entirety and by
> >rejecting Abraham's covenant you have rejected the Elohim of Old
> >Testament scriptures and chosen Roman Paul's words above all Hebrew
> >scriptures and your Vicar of Christ as Messiah.
>
> Jesus completed the old covenant as of no more value and started a new covenant.
> Heb 8:7-13.
Yeah, I suppose I could believe where you believe that but then
doesn't that put you in the same boat with Pastor Dave and the belief
that heaven and earth have already passed? I mean thats what is
described when it's laid out by the prophets. It also speaks clearly
about the Law being written on your heart and no man having to teach.
For these reasons I can't agree with your point of view but I respect
that you maintain them to support your institution of church.
> > I don't say this to
> >condemn you but to point out that you have made an obvious choice
> >because scriptures are clear
>
> Yes they are.
>
> > in that prayers to the dead (Mary, St.
> >Whoever) are called witchcraft.
>
> No, you may say that, but not Christianity. By your reasoning, one can never
> pray to Jesus but to the Father only in the "Our Father".
Well, that is after all what Jesus taught. It doesn't bother me that
people would pray in the name of Jesus since he is living at the right
hand side of the Father and all power is given over to him. I
personally don't subscribe to the idea of praying to dead people or do
you believe everybody is judged already? Maybe you think this is some
sick twisted version of heaven? I'm not sure since I haven't asked
you these questions before. Mary didn't rise again did she? Is she
your Messiah? Is that what those extra canons teach? Seriously, I
just don't understand how you can say you believe in Jesus but and the
ten commandments and then give your prayers to dead people.
> To pray is to ask for something.
>
> > I also find it curious that Catholic
> >maintain Hebrew scriptures in the canon but reject every word printed
> >as being for Jew's only. Why keep something in canon if your not
> >going to apply it to your own life?
>
> We don't reject the OT except where the new has replaced the old.
Which since it's all for the Hebrew tribe, is basically the same thing
as rejecting it all. You have circular logic on this topic. I don't
reject "except" it belongs to "Jews" and not to me.
> The 10 commandments still are tops, but the 639 Levitical man-made laws are no
> more.
Your paying lip service to them if what your telling me is true since
they aren't for you but part of somebody else's religion and you don't
actually have to pay any attention to any of it because it's all
"greek" so to say. Am I getting this right?
Read The Bible
> if you think Paul did not at times contradict the
> Messiah, the Hebrew Scriptures, and even himself.
There's no proof that Paul ever contradicted the
Messiah, the Hebrew Scriptures, or himself.
> Linda said: Yeshua ... had everything in place
> needed for our salvation when he died and
> resurrected.
Right, and Paul taught the same gospel of salvation
that Yeshua did (Luke 24:46-47; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
> Linda said: He didn't come right back and appoint a
> new apostle like Paul
Yeshua did appoint Paul as an apostle (Acts 26:15-18).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> guardian Snow said on Oct 29, 8:56 pm: ... his
> words (Yeshua) can stand by Torah law
Yeshua's words contradicted the Old Covenant law
(John 8:5-11, Matthew 19:7-9, 5:31-44).
> guardian said: I MUST take on HIS YOKE
His Yoke isn't the heavy yoke of the Old Covenant
law (Acts 15:10).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> guardian Snow said on Oct 30, 3:33 pm: Luk 12:51
Not division in the church, but division between
believers and unbelievers.
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> guardian Snow said on Oct 30, 6:39 pm: Paul did not
> come in the name of Yeshua the Messiah
He always did (Acts 9:27,29, 15:26, 16:18, 19:5,
21:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2,10, 5:4, 6:11, Ephesians
5:20, Philippians 2:10, Colossians 3:17;
2 Thessalonians 1:12; 3:6; 2 Timothy 2:19).
> guardian said: Mat 5:19
That refers to Yeshua's New Covenant commandments,
many of which He was just about to give in His
Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:21-7:29). We are to
keep Yeshua's commandments (John 14:21-24; 1 John
2:2-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:2; 1 Corinthians 14:37),
not the abolished Mosaic commandments (Hebrews
7:12,18-19).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> guardian Snow said on Oct 31, 5:39 am: Gen 17:14
Circumcision of the penis was only a temporary token
of the covenant God made with Abraham before he was
circumcised (Romans 4:9-16). New Covenant
circumcision is of the heart, not the penis (Romans
2:29, Philippians 3:3). No scripture says that
circumcision of the penis would be part of the New
Covenant.
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> snowpheonix said on Oct 31, 1:47 pm: ... in order
> to follow Elohim of Hebrew scriptures one must
> choose Sabbath worship.
One must choose worship of God before worship of the
Old Covenant Sabbath; those who worshipped the Old
Covenant Sabbath rejected God Himself for breaking
it (John 5:16-18) and for supporting His disciples
when they broke it (Matthew 12:1-8). The New Covenant
Sabbath is not just one day a week, but the ceasing
from our own works every day of the week (Hebrews
4:3,10, Luke 9:23; 2 Corinthians 5:15).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
> guardian Snow said on Oct 31, 7:52 pm: Rom 3:31
In keeping Yeshua's New Covenant commandments
(John 13:34; 1 John 3:23-24), we also end up keeping
the old law as defined by Yeshua (Matthew 7:12,
Galatians 5:14), and we far exceed the old law in
righteousness (Matthew 5:20-48).
> guardian said: Rev 14:12
That's the New Covenant commandments of God given
through Yeshua (John 14:15, 12:49).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Abrams1117 said on Oct 31, 9:29 pm: Ezekiel 45:17
> teaches that everyone will keep the Sabbath during
> the millennium
No, it doesn't, for that was part of a conditional
vision (Ezekiel 43:11) which was never fulfilled by
Israel, and now never will be fulfilled for it
included animal sacrifices for sin (Ezekiel
45:17-25), and after Yeshua's New Covenant sacrifice
of Himself for our sins (Mathew 26:28), there can be
no more animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:8-18).
guardian Snow
And here comes Mr Read the bible with his usual attacks and no point
and quoting his false prophet as usual.. Do we care? Sorry, lost in
translation.
The Interceptor
>when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
Where are these passages of disagreement?
Jeff...
Abrams1117
> > Wow....youre lost. Paul fought against the Apostles who were in favor
> > of 'circumcism'...and won. They admitted he was right.
>
> I suppose that depends on who you consider your Father. Is Paul your
> Father?
>
> Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it
> is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise
> a man.
> Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the
> law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have
> made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
>
> I read this and see that Yeshua is telling us that Circumcision is
> Yahweh's Law. That in fact agrees with the prophets and Moses.
>
> Act 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain
> disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain woman, which
> was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
> Act 16:2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at
> Lystra and Iconium.
> Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and
> circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for
> they knew all that his father was a Greek.
>
The debate in John 7 is about working on the Sabbath.
You use Acts 16:1-3 to say Jesus Christ (in John 7:22-23) teaches that
circumcision is required for Christians.
In John 7:22-23 Jesus Christ is saying if it is lawful to circumcise
(remove part of a man) on the Sabbath how can you say it is unlawful
to make a man whole on the Sabbath?
The debate over circumcision was long and heated. In Acts 16:3 Paul
circumcised Timothy. Later he refused to circumcise Titus.
This entire book is about....the Debate over Circumcision
Galatians
001:001 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus
Christ, and G-D the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
001:002 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of
Galatia:
001:003 Grace be to you and peace from G-D the Father, and from our
Lord Jesus Christ,
001:004 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from
this present evil world, according to the will of G-D and our Father:
001:005 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the
grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would
pervert the gospel of Christ.
001:006 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you
into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
001:007 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and
would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto
you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
001:008 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other
gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
001:009 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any
other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be
accursed.
Is Paul seeking to please man or G-D? Contrast this with Peter's
conduct in Acts 15:
For do I now persuade men, or G-D? or do I seek to please men? for if
I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
001:010 For do I now persuade men, or G-D? or do I seek to please men?
for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
001:011 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was
preached of me is not after man.
001:012 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but
by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
001:013 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews'
religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of G-D, and
wasted it:
001:014 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in
mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of
my fathers.
001:015 But when it pleased G-D, who separated me from my mother's
womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen
(GENTILES); immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
001:016 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the
heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
001:017 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles
before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
001:018 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter,
and abode with him fifteen days.
001:019 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's
brother.
001:020 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before G-D, I
lie not.
001:021 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
001:022 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were
in Christ:
001:023 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times
past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
001:024 And they glorified G-D in me.
002:001 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with
Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
002:002 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that
gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which
were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in
vain.
Paul would not circumcise Titus:
But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be
circumcised:
002:003 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was
compelled to be circumcised:
002:004 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who
came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus,
that they might bring us into bondage:
002:005 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that
the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
002:006 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were,
it maketh no matter to me: G-D accepteth no man's person:) for they
who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Paul brought the gospel to the Gentiles; Peter brought the gospel to
the Jews:
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision
was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto
Peter;
002:007 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
circumcision was unto Peter;
002:008 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship
of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Paul brought the gospel to the Gentiles; Peter brought the gospel to
the Jews:
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived
the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the
right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and
they unto the circumcision.
002:009 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and
Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the
heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
002:010 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same
which I also was forward to do.
Paul challenges Peter about circumcision:
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face,
because he was to be blamed.
02:011 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed.
Before men came from James Peter ate with the Gentiles accepting them
as Christians making no difference between Jew and Greek. After they
arrived he ate with them:
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles:
but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing
them which were of the circumcision.
Why? To please G-D or men? He ate with those from Jerusalem because
Peter feared them:
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles:
but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing
them which were of the circumcision.
002:012 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the
Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself,
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Paul was all alone in this even Barnabas ate with Peter and the Jews:
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that
Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
002:013 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that
Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Who was obeying G-D? Paul or Peter?:
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth
of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a
Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why
compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Are we saved by the law or by Jesus Christ?:
002:014 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the
truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being
a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews,
why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
002:015 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
002:016 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus
Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by
the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.
002:017 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves
also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? G-D
forbid.
002:018 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make
myself a transgressor.
002:019 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live
unto G-D.
002:020 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but
Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live
by the faith of the Son of G-D, who loved me, and gave himself for
me.
002:021 I do not frustrate the grace of G-D: for if righteousness come
by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
003:001 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should
not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently
set forth, crucified among you?
003:002 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
003:003 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made
perfect by the flesh?
003:004 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in
vain.
003:005 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh
miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?
003:006 Even as Abraham believed G-D, and it was accounted to him for
righteousness.
003:007 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are
the children of Abraham.
003:008 And the scripture, foreseeing that G-D would justify the
heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,
saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
003:009 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful
Abraham.
003:010 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the
curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in
all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
003:011 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of G-D,
it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
003:012 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them
shall live in them.
003:013 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made
a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on
a tree:
003:014 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles
through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith.
003:015 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a
man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth
thereto.
003:016 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith
not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which
is Christ.
003:017 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before
of G-D in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years
after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none
effect.
003:018 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of
promise: but G-D gave it to Abraham by promise.
003:019 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of
transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was
made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
003:020 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but G-D is one.
003:021 Is the law then against the promises of G-D? G-D forbid: for
if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily
righteousness should have been by the law.
003:022 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the
promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
003:023 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up
unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
003:024 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto
Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
003:025 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster.
003:026 For ye are all the children of G-D by faith in Christ Jesus.
003:027 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put
on Christ.
Was Peter correct in treating the Jews as better than the Gentiles?:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there
is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
003:028 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus.
003:029 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs
according to the promise.
004:001 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth
nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
004:002 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of
the father.
004:003 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the
elements of the world:
004:004 But when the fulness of the time was come, G-D sent forth his
Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
004:005 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive
the adoption of sons.
004:006 And because ye are sons, G-D hath sent forth the Spirit of his
Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
004:007 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son,
then an heir of G-D through Christ.
004:008 Howbeit then, when ye knew not G-D, ye did service unto them
which by nature are no gods.
004:009 But now, after that ye have known G-D, or rather are known of
G-D, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye
desire again to be in bondage?
004:010 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
004:011 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in
vain.
004:012 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye
have not injured me at all.
004:013 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the
gospel unto you at the first.
004:014 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor
rejected; but received me as an angel of G-D, even as Christ Jesus.
004:015 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you
record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your
own eyes, and have given them to me.
004:016 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the
truth?
004:017 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would
exclude you, that ye might affect them.
004:018 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good
thing, and not only when I am present with you.
004:019 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until
Christ be formed in you,
004:020 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice;
for I stand in doubt of you.
There are two covenants:
004:021 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear
the law?
004:022 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a
bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
004:023 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but
he of the freewoman was by promise.
004:024 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is
Agar.
004:025 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to
Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
004:026 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of
us all.
004:027 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not;
break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath
many more children than she which hath an husband.
004:028 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
004:029 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him
that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
004:030 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the
son of the freewoman.
004:031 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but
of the free.
005:001 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made
us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
If you try and keep the law (circumcision) what do you profit?:
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall
profit you nothing.
005:002 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ
shall profit you nothing.
005:003 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he
is a debtor to do the whole law.
Can you be justified by the law?:
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
005:004 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
005:005 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness
by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor
uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
005:006 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
005:007 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey
the truth?
005:008 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
005:009 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
005:010 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be
none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his
judgment, whosoever he be.
005:011 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet
suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
005:012 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
005:013 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not
liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
005:014 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
005:015 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be
not consumed one of another.
005:016 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil
the lust of the flesh.
005:017 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit
against the flesh: and these
are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things
that ye would.
005:018 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
005:019 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
005:020 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath,
strife, seditions, heresies,
005:021 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of
the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of G-D.
005:022 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
005:023 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
005:024 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts.
005:025 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
005:026 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another,
envying one another.
006:001 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are
spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering
thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
006:002 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of
Christ.
006:003 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is
nothing, he deceiveth himself.
006:004 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have
rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
006:005 For every man shall bear his own burden.
006:006 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that
teacheth in all good things.
006:007 Be not deceived; G-D is not mocked: for whatsoever a man
soweth, that shall he also reap.
006:008 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap
corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap
life everlasting.
006:009 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we
shall reap, if we faint not.
006:010 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men,
especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
006:011 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine
own hand.
They were being pressureed into being circumcised:
As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you
to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the
cross of Christ.
006:012 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they
constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer
persecution for the cross of Christ.
006:013 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law;
but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your
flesh.
006:014 But G-D forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto
the world.
006:015 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
006:016 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them,
and mercy, and upon the Israel of G-D.
006:017 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body
the marks of the Lord Jesus.
006:018 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your
spirit. Amen.
Paul is against circumcision. What does Peter say?
The debate continues...
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and
said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be
saved.
Acts 15
015:001 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the
brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of
Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Paul and Barnabas disagree with them:
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them,
Paul goes to Jerusalem about this question to the apostles:
..they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them,
should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this
question.
015:002 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and
certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question.
015:003 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed
through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles:
and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the
church....
015:004 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of
the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all
things that G-D had done with them.
...certain of the sect of the Pharisees.....
015:005 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to
command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this
matter.
015:006 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of
this matter.
And when there had been much disputing....
Peter rose up, and said unto them.....
015:007 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago G-
D made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the
word of the gospel, and believe.
015:008 And G-D, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them......
015:009 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their
hearts by faith.
Peter said:
Now therefore why tempt ye G-D....
...to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples....
..which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
015:010 Now therefore why tempt ye G-D, to put a yoke upon the neck of
the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we
shall be saved, even as they.
015:011 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.
015:012 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to
Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders G-D had wrought
among the Gentiles by them.
James answered.....
015:013 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,
Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
015:014 Simeon hath declared how G-D at the first did visit the
Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
015:015 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is
written,
015:016 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle
of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins
thereof, and I will set it up:
015:017 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the
Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all
these things.
015:018 Known unto G-D are all his works from the beginning of the
world.
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among
the Gentiles are turned to G-D:
015:019 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from
among the Gentiles are turned to G-D:
015:020 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions
of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from
blood.
015:021 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
015:022 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church,
to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and
Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among
the brethren:
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and
elders....
015:023 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles
and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of
the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
....to whom we gave no such commandment:
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
015:024 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from
us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye
must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such
commandment:
....to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
015:025 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to
send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
015:026 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
015:027 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell
you the same things by mouth.
015:028 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon
you no greater burden than these necessary things;
015:029 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood,
and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
015:030 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when
they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
015:031 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
015:032 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted
the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
015:033 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in
peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
Paul went to the Apostles about the question of circumcision. No only
do Peter and James support their beloved brother Paul THEY made the
decision about circumcision.
guardian Snow
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
> > But something interesting happened
> >when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
>
> Where are these passages of disagreement?
>
> Jeff...
I'm betting your not going to actually address these but since you
asked I'll post a few of the ones I found with my favorite one last:)
Conflict #1 - Knowing the Torah.
Joh 7:49 "But this crowd that does not know the Torah is accursed."
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your
God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the
LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this
day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
In John we read that those that don't know the Torah are cursed and
Paul conflict in saying that anybody "of the works" is cursed.
We can also see that purposely misquotes and makes it sound like if
you fail in one respect, you're damned.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of works of Torah are under the curse, for
it has been written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all
that has been written in the book of the Torah, to do them."
Conflict #2 Cursing
Gal 1:8 However, even if we, or a messenger out of heaven, bring a
'Good News' to you beside what we announced to you, let him be
accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone brings
a 'Good News' to you beside what you have received, let him be
accursed.
He conflicts first off with himself here by what he said to the
Romans,
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you - bless and do not curse.
So he curses "anyone" in Galatians but tells the Romans not to curse.
In James we read,
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse
we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My
brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Conflict #3 Was the Law destroyed?
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we
ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of
sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make
myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live
unto God.
Vs.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled
Conflict #4 The Great Commandment
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the
prophets.
Vs.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou
shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Conflict #5 God of the Dead?
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all
live unto him.
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living:
ye therefore do greatly err.
Vs.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived,
that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Conflict # 6 Lord of the Free?
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the
Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is
Christ's servant.
Vs.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and
humble in heart, and you shall find rest for your beings.1 Footnote:
1Jer. 6:16.
Conflict # 7 Sin, guilty because of Adam.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so
by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Vs.
Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not
received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked
in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he
shall surely live.
Conflict #8 Receiving anything from the Lord
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive
anything from the Lord;
Vs.
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance
as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.
Eph 6:8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive
back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
1Co 4:5 ... Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
Conflict # 9 Nothing separates us from God?
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor
angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things
to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be
able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our
Lord.
Vs.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Conflict # 10 Law will not save?
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness
by faith.
Vs.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without
works is dead also.
Conflict # 11 Judging
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Vs.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge,
I pray you, between me and my vineyard.
Conflict # 12 Baptism
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a
good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Vs.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with
him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him
from the dead.
Conflict # 13 Father of all?
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all,
and in you all.
Vs.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your
father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a
lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to
our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to
raise up children unto Abraham.
Conflict #14 Holy Spirit promised or must ask for
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the
promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance
until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Vs.
Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy
Spirit to those who ask him!"
Conflict # 15 Food for Idols
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast
there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast
a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things
sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Vs.
1Co 8:1 And concerning food offered to idols: We know that we all
have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
1Co 8:4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know
that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but
one."
1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do
not eat, and no better off if we do.
Conflict # 16: Is the law Perfect or Weak?
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going
before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Vs Himself,
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good.
that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Vs.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the
testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the
commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes
Here's some of the better ones I've collected and this is just my own
research. I respect that a lot of people will disagree with me on this
and I respect that.
With regard,
Snow
guardian Snow
So your answer is Yes, Paul is a hypocrite because while he did
perform a circumcision on Timothy just after his trial in front of
Peter, when he was in a land that nobody knew him, refused to do the
practice on Titus and made the statement,
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.
So, being that I am in fact one who has been circumcised, I have no
need of the doctrine of Paul and should stick to the doctrine of
Peter, who did in fact have the gospel for those circumcised.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
circumcision was unto Peter;
Because we do in fact have to distinctly different gospels in the
bible.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every
kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every
city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
duke
wrote:
>I probably haven't made myself clear and I'm sorry about that. I've
>almost always spent my time reading the gospels, Revelation and
>jumping around the prophets, I've read all of paul of couple of times
>and found a lot of his writings were just boring to me. I'm guessing
>a lot of other people disagree. But something interesting happened
>when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
>One person would say Law this, I would say but Jesus said this and
>Paul said this.. but there was always fuel to continue the debate.
>Then only recently I've come to this different understanding that I'm
>sure I've annoyed you with and I'm sorry about that. But, let's say
>I'm wrong and it's all just a big misunderstanding... Wouldn't it be
>better to error with the words of the Messiah, Son of Elohim instead
>of following after Paul?
Paul is in full agreement with Jesus. Those that are confused are confused over
terms and things they don't understand in the first place. Law can mean the
Levitical law in one spot and the 10 commandments in another.
That's the main reason no one statement defines God. And the main reason the
RCC discouraged individuals reading the bible until recently.
Law Types in the Bible:
Pharisees
A politico-religious sect or faction among the adherents of later Judaism, that
came into existence as a class about the third century B.C. After the exile,
Israel's monarchial form of government had become a thing of the past; in its
place the Jews created a community which was half State, half Church. A growing
sense of superiority to the heathen and idolatrous nations among whom their lot
was cast came to be one of their main characteristics.
Scribes
(Greek grammateis, nomodidaschaloi, teachers of the law).
In the New-Testament period the scribes were the professional interpreters of
the Law in the Jewish synagogues. The origin of the profession dates from the
return of the Captivity, and its subsequent growth and importance resulted
naturally from the formal and legalistic trend of Jewish piety during the
post-Exilic period. The Law was revered as the precise expression of God's will,
and by its multifarious prescriptions the daily life of every pious Jew was
regulated in all its minute details. Love of the Law was the essence of piety,
and the just or righteous were they who walked "in all the commandments and
justifications of the Lord without blame"
Moral Aspect of Divine Law
Divine Law is that which is enacted by God and made known to man through
revelation. We distinguish between the Old Law, contained in the Pentateuch, and
the New Law, which was revealed by Jesus Christ and is contained in the New
Testament. The Divine Law of the Old Testament, or the Mosaic Law, is commonly
divided into civil, ceremonial, and moral precepts.
The Ten Commandments
Called also simply THE COMMANDMENTS, COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, or THE DECALOGUE (Gr.
deka, ten, and logos, a word), the Ten Words of Sayings, the latter name
generally applied by the Greek Fathers.
The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of
religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator's
will in relation to man's whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They
are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but
are given in an abridged form in the catechisms. Written by the finger of God on
two tables of stone, this Divine code was received from the Almighty by Moses
amid the thunders of Mount Sinai, and by him made the ground-work of the Mosaic
Law
duke
wrote:
>On Nov 1, 10:56 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>> >The Covenant of Abraham predates Israel in it entirety and by
>> >rejecting Abraham's covenant you have rejected the Elohim of Old
>> >Testament scriptures and chosen Roman Paul's words above all Hebrew
>> >scriptures and your Vicar of Christ as Messiah.
>>
>> Jesus completed the old covenant as of no more value and started a new covenant.
>> Heb 8:7-13.
>
>Yeah, I suppose I could believe where you believe that but then
>doesn't that put you in the same boat with Pastor Dave and the belief
>that heaven and earth have already passed?
?????? No!!
> I mean thats what is
>described when it's laid out by the prophets. It also speaks clearly
>about the Law being written on your heart and no man having to teach.
Yep, Heb 8:7-13.
>For these reasons I can't agree with your point of view but I respect
>that you maintain them to support your institution of church.
I can't go against scripture - all of it.
>> > I don't say this to
>> >condemn you but to point out that you have made an obvious choice
>> >because scriptures are clear
>> Yes they are.
>> > in that prayers to the dead (Mary, St.
>> >Whoever) are called witchcraft.
>> No, you may say that, but not Christianity. By your reasoning, one can never
>> pray to Jesus but to the Father only in the "Our Father".
>Well, that is after all what Jesus taught. It doesn't bother me that
>people would pray in the name of Jesus since he is living at the right
>hand side of the Father and all power is given over to him. I
>personally don't subscribe to the idea of praying to dead people or do
>you believe everybody is judged already?
Yet the Communion of Saints, A Holy Day today honoring them, that we celebrate
is that the saints are not dead but alive with God. Why would you say, nah,
demand that those whose bodies died are dead to the Lord? That's not giving the
supreme being that preallocated the procreation equation 1/2 in male and 1/2 in
female any credit for "life after life".
See, Rev 7, Mat 22:32.
> Maybe you think this is some
>sick twisted version of heaven? I'm not sure since I haven't asked
>you these questions before. Mary didn't rise again did she?
Nope, Mary has no divinity. She had need for a savior. Luke 1:47.
> Is she
>your Messiah?
Not a chance.
> Is that what those extra canons teach?
There are no extra canons. We do have more books of the bible, because the
protest_ants took some out.
> Seriously, I
>just don't understand how you can say you believe in Jesus but and the
>ten commandments and then give your prayers to dead people.
There bodies are dead, but they are alive.
>> To pray is to ask for something.
>> > I also find it curious that Catholic
>> >maintain Hebrew scriptures in the canon but reject every word printed
>> >as being for Jew's only. Why keep something in canon if your not
>> >going to apply it to your own life?
>> We don't reject the OT except where the new has replaced the old.
>Which since it's all for the Hebrew tribe, is basically the same thing
>as rejecting it all. You have circular logic on this topic. I don't
>reject "except" it belongs to "Jews" and not to me.
Of course not. The old and the new go together very well. A simple matter of
an evolving story as man grew in his spiritual sensabilities.
>> The 10 commandments still are tops, but the 639 Levitical man-made laws are no
>> more.
>Your paying lip service to them if what your telling me is true since
>they aren't for you but part of somebody else's religion and you don't
>actually have to pay any attention to any of it because it's all
>"greek" so to say. Am I getting this right?
Why would God object to eating pork, or catfish? Why is work on the sabbath
defined as carrying 3 fig leaves 1 mile? Why is it ok to tend to a hurt animal
on the sabbath but not another man?
God gave us the 10 commandments. Man invented 639 laws to identify how one
follows the 10 commandments and then laws to define the details of the laws.
God now says that the covenant based on the 639 laws are old and worn out, and
gave us a new covenant written on the heart of man to replace the old written in
animal blood on stone tablets. Heb 8:7-13.
Abrams1117
Is circumcision required for salvation? Paul traveled to the apostles
to get the answer to this specific question. The answer from both
Peter and James was, 'No'.
Afterwards he circumcised Timothy. People call Paul a hypocrite
because of this. The apostles call Paul a beloved brother.
Acts 15 and Galatians teach that this one subject caused major
division. Even causing Peter to separate himself from Gentiles for
fear of 'the circumcised'. Thats the enormity of this debate,
division, question.
The circumcised Jews believed that it was unlawful to even associate
with a Gentile:
Acts 10:28
He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a
Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But G-D has shown me
that I should not call any man impure or unclean.
They would not even associate with Timothy, or accept him if he was
not circumcised, nor could they according to their beliefs.
The idea of Acts 10:28 was new to them, against their law and very
difficult to accept, even for the Apostle Peter.
People say that Paul is a hypocrite for circumcising Timothy. Even
though Paul never said this was for his salvation, he taught that it
is not required, he went to Jerusalem to get the answer to this
question which was rendered in agreement with him; and both before and
after this he taught that it is not required.
Paul is not the hypocrite.
> Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
> Christ shall profit you nothing.
>
> So, being that I am in fact one who has been circumcised, I have no
> need of the doctrine of Paul and should stick to the doctrine of
> Peter, who did in fact have the gospel for those circumcised.
>
> Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
> uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
> circumcision was unto Peter;
>
> Because we do in fact have to distinctly different gospels in the
> bible.
>
> Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every
> kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every
> city or house divided against itself shall not stand:- Hide quoted text -
guardian Snow
Ironically that very same dream that Peter had is the same one used to
do away with the dietary restrictions in scriptures. One of the other
people here posted a good question:
I'll surmise the question, "Why would God forbid eating 'unclean'
meats?"
It's really a simple answer when you consider the nature of all the
things that are unclean. You might sit around wondering why heart
attack rates have gone through the roof but I don't. Yes, heart
diseases are directly link to bad eating and until people can connect
the dots, they will continue to drop off like flies.
I respect your choice not to accept the scriptures in Old Testament
for the teachings of Paul.
Gen 17:14 "And an uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in
the flesh of his foreskin, his life shall be cut off from his people -
he has broken My covenant."
>The circumcised Jews believed that it was unlawful to even associate
>with a Gentile:
This actually predates ISRAEL. Being a man of higher understanding I
expect you to make this distinction and stop following after the
faulty Catholic translations.
Gen 34:14 And they said to them, "We are not able to do this matter,
to give our sister to one who is uncircumcised, for that would be a
reproach to us.
Gen 34:15 But in this will we consent unto you: If ye will be as we
be, that every male of you be circumcised;
Gen 34:16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take
your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become
one people.
You keep trying to tie this to the Law of Moses and I really don't
understand why? We see rainbows in the sky and know the covenants are
still in place. If you wish to become one with the people of Abraham,
you must except the covenant. This has NOTHING to do with Moses except
that he continue the tradition and you are still negating the fact
that it is the LAW of our FATHER!
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it
is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise
a man.
It is not of Moses! It is from the Father. If you choose to follow
the false teaching of Paul you have disregarded the words of the
Messiah. Yes, he spoke of the Sabbath but he also spoke of
Circumcision and you are ignoring the clear teachings of all the other
scriptures in favor of one Roman who by his own claims never met the
Messiah in his earthly ministry. Ironically the only time he does
quote the Messiah is when he uses visions to claim more authority like
having the power of Christ.
Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy
beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there
shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O
Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive
daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for naught;
and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down formerly
into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without
cause.
Paul is from Assyrian Land!
@there Vernono O
"The Interceptor" <noway...@non.co> wrote in message
news:CPqWi.109734$yN2....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
There are NONE.
guardian Snow
> Of course not. The old and the new go together very well. A simple matter of
> an evolving story as man grew in his spiritual sensabilities.
>
> >> The 10 commandments still are tops, but the 639 Levitical man-made laws are no
> >> more.
> >Your paying lip service to them if what your telling me is true since
> >they aren't for you but part of somebody else's religion and you don't
> >actually have to pay any attention to any of it because it's all
> >"greek" so to say. Am I getting this right?
>
> Why would God object to eating pork, or catfish? Why is work on the sabbath
> defined as carrying 3 fig leaves 1 mile? Why is it ok to tend to a hurt animal
> on the sabbath but not another man?
>
> God gave us the 10 commandments. Man invented 639 laws to identify how one
> follows the 10 commandments and then laws to define the details of the laws.
>
> God now says that the covenant based on the 639 laws are old and worn out, and
> gave us a new covenant written on the heart of man to replace the old written in
> animal blood on stone tablets. Heb 8:7-13.
Duke, your continuing to talk in circles. On the one hand you talk
about 10 Commandments but the fact is you don't keep those either.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
1. You think you keep this one but you pray to men and woman and don't
follow the example of the Messiah in prayer to "Our Father". You also
go against his teaching by chanting the same prayers over and over
again. When we pray "Our Father" is an example only. We should be
talking to our Father just like we talk with a beloved loved one.
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them...
2. You bow before idols of Mary and Saints breaking the second
commandment. Others bow before a cross and it has the same effect. We
are to worship in the spirit only.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your
Father, which is in heaven.
3. You call your religios leaders Father, directly against the orders
of the Messiah.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
You worship on any day BUT the Sabbath.
You can't even keep the most important of the 10 commandments and your
going to tell me again that those are for some other religion because
yours is supreme and you can go on ignoring even the 10 commandments.
Why? Because the truth is brother, you do not love the Messiah and
you have chosen a false liberty over the yoke of the Messiah.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Are you dead?
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
He's telling you not to except the yoke of bondage!
Christ said different and even Abrams will say this agrees somehow.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Paul says you are free and not to take a yoke of bondage but the
Messiah says the opposite, to take his yoke because it is light, easy
and with his true yoke, ye shall find rest in your soul.
Amen.
With respect,
Snow
guardian Snow
> "The Interceptor" <nowayto...@non.co> wrote in message
>
> news:CPqWi.109734$yN2....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
>
>
> > "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
> >> But something interesting happened
> >>when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
>
> > Where are these passages of disagreement?
>
> > Jeff...
>
> There are NONE.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
He's telling you not to except the yoke of bondage!
Christ said different.
Abrams1117
Peter said that circumcision is not necessary; and you know this fact.
> > > Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
> > > uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
> > > circumcision was unto Peter;
>
You know that 'the uncircumcised' means the Gentiles and 'the
circumcised' means the Jews.
> > > Because we do in fact have to distinctly different gospels in the
> > > bible.
>
> > > Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every
> > > kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every
> > > city or house divided against itself shall not stand:- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ironically that very same dream that Peter had is the same one used to
> do away with the dietary restrictions in scriptures. One of the other
> people here posted a good question:
>
> I'll surmise the question, "Why would God forbid eating 'unclean'
> meats?"
>
> It's really a simple answer when you consider the nature of all the
> things that are unclean. You might sit around wondering why heart
> attack rates have gone through the roof but I don't. Yes, heart
> diseases are directly link to bad eating and until people can connect
> the dots, they will continue to drop off like flies.
>
You keep making Scriptures about what they are not about. Just as you
know that those verses are about not calling unclean what G-D has
called clean means that the Gentiles can be saved. It has nothing to
do with food. And you know that. Yet you keep doing it.
> Paul is from Assyrian Land!- Hide quoted text -
>
You claim to believe Peter and deny what he says. You claim to believe
James and deny what he says. I could go on. The amazing thing is there
is absolutely NO debate at all about the topic in Scripture or the
answer. None. Zip. Nada. Peter, James, and Paul teach that
circumcision is not necessary. There it is said plainly in Scripture.
And you say it is necessary. Amazing.
@there Vernono O
> On Nov 2, 1:58 pm, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
>> "The Interceptor" <nowayto...@non.co> wrote in message
>>
>> news:CPqWi.109734$yN2....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
>> >> But something interesting happened
>> >>when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
>>
>> > Where are these passages of disagreement?
>>
>> > Jeff...
>>
>> There are NONE.
>
> Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
> made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
>
> He's telling you not to except the yoke of bondage!
Context
Bondage of legalism.
>
> Christ said different.
>
> Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
> lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Christ said the same thing as Paul MANY times to the Pharisses.
You are a liar.
AND not of Christ (not chosen by the Father)
>
guardian Snow
Then this must be me and your false prophet is right...
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers,
especially they of the circumcision:
But I will disagree with you, I do believe everybody outside of Paul.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them
from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.
guardian Snow
> "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
>
> news:1193972475....@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Nov 2, 1:58 pm, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
> >> "The Interceptor" <nowayto...@non.co> wrote in message
>
> >>news:CPqWi.109734$yN2....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> >> > "guardian Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
> >> >> But something interesting happened
> >> >>when I started talking to people, Paul always disagreed with Jesus.
>
> >> > Where are these passages of disagreement?
>
> >> > Jeff...
>
> >> There are NONE.
>
> > Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath
> > made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
>
> > He's telling you not to except the yoke of bondage!
>
> Context
> Bondage of legalism.
>
>
>
> > Christ said different.
>
> > Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
> > lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
>
> Christ said the same thing as Paul MANY times to the Pharisses.
> You are a liar.
>
> AND not of Christ (not chosen by the Father)
>
>
Not of your false Father or Messiah, Correct. You asked to point out
where Paul and Yeshua do not agree and I showed you several example
and your child like response is to cry foul and toss me out of your
pagan church that follow the one after Yeshua.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to
destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have
it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life
for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own
the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and
fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth
not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of
mine.
2Co 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you
service.
Exo 20:15 "You do not steal.