RAPTURE??????
Tony Clifton
say there are good people on both sides of this issue. However after
over 30 years of personal study. I went from being a believer in the
rapture to now completely unbelieving it. I do not see this doctrine
anywhere in the bible.
There are a few obscure verses that can be interpreted many
ways, but no the doctrine is not clearly taught. I am speaking of the
PRETRIBULATION rapture. I want to say yes one day Christ will come in
the sky for his people but no not before the tribulation.
Anyone who wishes to convert me I do have an open mind. However its not
gonna be easy because ive read every opinion there is on the subject.
Most important I have read the bible. CHRIST COMES ONCE FOR HIS PEOPLE
NOT TWICE.
TC
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Tony Clifton" <TonyClift...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19011-43...@storefull-3356.bay.webtv.net...
Friend, it even goes beyond that.
When Paul was talking about "those who are alive and remain" being taken out
of "in the blink of an eye," the only people he was talking about was "those
who are alive and remain," i.e. the remnant, i.e. those 144,000
Judeo-Christian evangelists left to the very end. And even their translation
will be shrouded in death, for John writes in Revelation that he saw those
who were beheaded and got the victory over the beast sitting with Jesus on
their thrones.
So, you are exactly right. Some false prophets took a rather insignificant
statement of Paul's and turned it into a full-blown hoax on the entire
church, leading them away from the core message of all New Testament
prophecy: "Keep the faith unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
Ike
--
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
Pastor Dave
TonyClift...@webtv.net (Tony Clifton) spake
thusly:
I believe that Christ already came.
--
Pastor Dave
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
The 5th Horseman
1) Here we are, Christians, Muslims , Jews, Athiests etc. (true)
2) Oil is running out (peak oil), more people - more oil needed (true)
3) This leads to an oil grab by those countries who can, the US through the
military, China through Diplomatic channels, Russia through position,
Europe through
influence on those that have the oil (who knows), (true, this is
happening now!)
4) this leads to higher prices for everything, transport, food and then war.
(yes that's a big jump, but the casue for war is usually coveting what
someone else has)
5) at this point, you may have to work for a day for a McDonalds hamburger,
that is if you aren't dead from bird flu, cia terrorist sponsered bombings,
being drafted and shot in a foreign country, lose your job and starve to
death, get shot dead by the food hoar mongers who prepared themselves before
the shit hit the fan, or from typhoid or some disease that emoerged from the
sewer because the electricity is out and the pumping station is dead, throw
in a few 9.0 earthquakes with the associated sunamis, which you won't know
are coming because the bloody tv is out and the radio is still blurting out
bloody commercials. Basically you're stuffed. Fricked if you can save
yourself , let alone your family. Think you'll be a model Christian then
when you hungry and cold and thirsty and tired and scared?
6) Onto the scene comes an absolutely smashing fellow. Comes down in an
Identified Flying Saucer, restores power, blows the crap out of any armies
at war, brings food and order in general. Everyone is going to say WOW! what
a great guy, lets vote for him.
7) Many Christians know who this guy really is. And many non Christians will
also know exactly who he is.
8) Do you really think God would let the people who want to be with him
remain here with this evil man who will hunt them down and torture them
until they change sides? Would any father or mother allow their children to
be punished and lose faith in their parants? Or allow so many people on
earth to saty and oppose this guy? possibly spreading the word to people on
who he really is? Does the AC want 100 million people around (arbitrary
figure) telling everyone what he is and what he will do? No he won't. These
people are/ needed to be taken out of the way so the path is clear for him.
9) So the faithful disappear. At night as the world spins. A damage
minimisation. Who wants a 747 falling out of the sky with no pilot, or cars
veering off the freeway etc. you get the picture. He will come like a thief
in the night. That means in the dead mans hours after 12 midnight. Not
during the day when you are eating that $120 big mac, sheesh....
10) Labour force is gone, 10 mil? 100 mil? 1 billion people? Who knows? A
significant hit to the economy will ensue.
11) these are 3 separate quotes (not exact and I can't remember where in the
Bible exactly)
"They will not cleave to one another"
" IT will be as in the days of Noah"
"The feet are of clay and iron"
A newly bred alien nephilm population will descend after the rapture to mix
with men and woman. Giants, just as in the days of Noah. They will be so
helpful at 1st. Taking up the slack in the economy by taking up jobs etc.
They will be smarter than us, stonger faster and eat more (thats important
to remeber as the original nephilm ate everything they could get their pie
holes on until they started eating men and each other). This is going to
happen again. And we won't be able to mix with them, intellectually,
socially etc. Many will look alomost normal, but many will be giants, 10ft,
12ft tall? who knows.
They will be the 1st to accept the mark, the economy will change and evolve
around them, and if you are still here, you will change too, or starve.
12) Lots of the people who remain aren't fools. They can see what's
happening and will change sides to God. This is during the great
tribulation. We are all The Lords children, and he will give every one of us
a chance right up till the end to save themselves. Could you personally see
a man before you asking for help and you refuse them? Unfortunatley some
people might but the majority of us would hold out our hands and help. How
much more infinite is Gods love to us that all he wants is you to say "yes"
take me!
So no rapture?
There bloody well better be, it's the blessed hope. Personally I don't want
children or even the unborn to go through this horrible period in history. I
hope the Lord rescues them at least. Kids just want to play.
Who is anyone out there rotten enough to give arguments against the rapture?
Why would anyone want to kill someones hopes? If you don't believe in it,
don't push your non-belief onto those that have faith and have a differant
perspective than you. In the end, I hope that all non rapturists are wrong,
becasue the alterative is too horrible to contemplate.
the 5th Horseman
"Tony Clifton" <TonyClift...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19011-43...@storefull-3356.bay.webtv.net...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"The 5th Horseman" <slapm...@myhome.org> wrote in message
news:uzxWe.48974$FA3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
[snip]
> So no rapture?
>
> http://www.raptureready.com/
>
> There bloody well better be, it's the blessed hope. Personally I don't
> want children or even the unborn to go through this horrible period in
> history. I hope the Lord rescues them at least. Kids just want to play.
The "blessed hope" that Jesus always taught was the resurrection of the dead
for the faithful, not any rapture myth.
> Who is anyone out there rotten enough to give arguments against the
> rapture?
Who would be rotten enough to say that God made a promise He never made,
only to find themselves at the point of a sword, saying to themselves, "you
know, they told me this was going to happen to somebody else?"
> Why would anyone want to kill someones hopes?
Nobody is trying to "kill" hopes. The faith and patience (i.e. hope) of the
saints is the resurrection of the dead.
> If you don't believe in it, don't push your non-belief onto those that
> have faith and have a differant perspective than you.
It's not a matter of "perspective." It's a matter of truth and error. There
is what God will do, and what God won't do. It's not a matter of "pushing"
non-belief onto others. It's a matter of instilling true belief in others.
> In the end, I hope that all non rapturists are wrong, becasue the
> alterative is too horrible to contemplate.
Of course it's too horrible to contemplate. That's why God detailed
everything that would happen, so the believers can prepare and build up
enduring faith, knowing that the things of man will come to no good end.
That's the whole point of God giving us the prophecies.
He didn't do it for our entertainment. He did it for a purpose--to show the
saints the way home.
> the 5th Horseman
Aaron
Ike, the 144,000 cannot be christian because they cannot have
experianced idolatry at all, using the standard symbolism found
throughout the Prophets. So they can never have gone to church on a
sunday, celebrated Christmas, Easter, had communion used a cross as a
holy symbol or any of the other evil actions that the churches excuse.
They do however lay tefillin (Rev 14:1) with the churches reject.
Fom the way it looks now they will be calling the Christian churches
to repent of their dogmas and go back to the Bible!
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
news:6ffmi195r0iaj3j3g...@4ax.com...
Dore, prophecy is the last subject you know anything about.
John declares who and what the 144,000 are:
They keep the commandments of God / and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The sing the song of Moses / and the song of the Lamb.
The are not defiled with women / for they are virgins.
They are Jews and they are Christians.
> Fom the way it looks now they will be calling the Christian churches
> to repent of their dogmas and go back to the Bible!
Jesus lays out the problems of the churches in the seven letters according
to a range and mix from one to seven:
He keeps all of Philidelphia (7/7)
He takes most of Smyrna, but gives them a conditional warning not to secumb
in tribulation (6/7)
He takes 1/3 of Thyatira (I have a thing against a few of you) because some
confuse the Gospel of Grace with licensiousess (5/7)
He takes half of the Ephesians (I hold these things against you) because
half of them, such as yourself, leave behind their first love, the Gospel of
God's grace, and return to the gospel of law, i.e. the gospel of death.
(4/7)
He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because of
idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
He takes only a few from Sardeis (a few of you are worthy) because they are
immature. (2/7)
He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
So, despite your rambling condemnations of everyone else, God already knows
who the problem children are, where they are, and how many He will take or
leave.
Funny, He does seem to hold legalists such as yourself in very high esteem.
Read The Bible
The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the
Lord.
> not before the tribulation
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send
his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.
> CHRIST COMES ONCE FOR HIS PEOPLE NOT TWICE.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto
him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
day shall not come, except there come a falling away
(apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth
himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple
of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye
not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he
might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of
iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth
will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then
shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
destroy with the brightness of his coming.
> leading them away from the core message of all
> New Testament prophecy
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the
Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that
they may rest from their labours; and their works do
follow them.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that
shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
*******
> the 144,000 cannot be christian
These are they which follow the Lamb (Christ)
whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from
among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to
the Lamb.
> tefillin (Rev 14:1)
Having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
(Written by Christ, not by themselves; For not he
that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the
Lord commendeth:)
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the
temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I
will write upon him the name of my God, and the name
of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which
cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will
write upon him my new name.
The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see
his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Read The Bible
> where they are, and how many He will take or leave.
The foundation of God standeth sure, having this
seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let
every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from
iniquity.
Take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts
be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and
cares of this life, and so that day come upon you
unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them
that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye
therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted
worthy to escape all these things that shall come to
pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
> He does seem to hold legalists such as yourself in
> very high esteem.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be
called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto
you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall
in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not
every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say
to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied
in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then
will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received
the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more
sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for
of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour
the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how
much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son
of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and
hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the
kingdom of God.
He became the author of eternal salvation unto all
them that obey him.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our
sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him
sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him. Little children, let no man
deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is
righteous, even as he is righteous. He that
committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth
from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
was manifested, that he might destroy the works of
the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit
sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot
sin, because he is born of God. In this the children
of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,
neither he that loveth not his brother.
They profess that they know God; but in works they
deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto
every good work reprobate.
By works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed
to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the
beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Read The Bible" <bible...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126941481.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> God already knows who the problem children are,
>> where they are, and how many He will take or leave.
>
> The foundation of God standeth sure, having this
> seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let
> every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from
> iniquity.
God has nothing derogatory to say to Philidelphia.
God only has to warn Smyrna to keep the faith to the end.
God has a thing against a few in Thyatira.
God holds these things against Ephesus.
God has a few things against those in Pergamos.
Only a few are worthy in Sardeis.
God has nothing good to say to Laodicea.
Seem God can handle things just fine, and will sort things out when He
comes. He doesn't need you for judge or jury.
[snip]
You're good at citing verses. Too bad you don't know what they mean.
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
Who is Dore?
>
>John declares who and what the 144,000 are:
>
>They keep the commandments of God / and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So, they cannot be Christians at all. Christians disavow/disobey the
613 Commandments.
>
>The sing the song of Moses / and the song of the Lamb.
>
>The are not defiled with women / for they are virgins.
Wrong!
Virginity here is used as the prophets use it because it is a
prophecy! Terms for sexual morality/immorality are used in Prophecy
to describe Idolatry.
Examples:
Harlot = Idolater
Harlotry = Idolatry
Whore = Someone who commits idolatry for money or power
Virgin = someone who has never committed even a slight act of
idolatry.
A man is not defined by having sex with his wife (unless she is
menstruating). Remember Celibacy is a sin. Institutionalized
Celibacy such as the Catholic church practices is TWO since it is also
adultery; the original Hebrew, "Lo tinaf," forbids any betrayal of the
covenant of marriage or mockery of the institution of marriage.
>
>They are Jews and they are Christians.
You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>
>> Fom the way it looks now they will be calling the Christian churches
>> to repent of their dogmas and go back to the Bible!
>
>Jesus lays out the problems of the churches in the seven letters according
>to a range and mix from one to seven:
Jesus laid out the theology that jews were to follow. jews must
remain Jewish and NEVER convert to Christianity if they are to accept
Jesus as Messiah and be saved. Paul even wrote that the Jews must
remain Jewish
>
>He keeps all of Philidelphia (7/7)
>He takes most of Smyrna, but gives them a conditional warning not to secumb
>in tribulation (6/7)
>He takes 1/3 of Thyatira (I have a thing against a few of you) because some
>confuse the Gospel of Grace with licensiousess (5/7)
Protestantism - most likely Calvinist/non-Charismatic.
Though your added in fraction seems a bit high for the percentage of
Portestants to be saved.
>He takes half of the Ephesians (I hold these things against you) because
>half of them, such as yourself, leave behind their first love, the Gospel of
>God's grace, and return to the gospel of law, i.e. the gospel of death.
That is not what the text says. You are adding to the book of
Revelation, distinct "no-no" (Revelation 22:18). In fact, this
community of believers was warned that they lost their original
zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
>(4/7)
>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because of
>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
Christians of many denominations.
>He takes only a few from Sardeis (a few of you are worthy) because they are
>immature. (2/7)
Charismatic Christians.
Many of them commit idolatry by worshiping miracles because of their
immaturity.
>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>
>So, despite your rambling condemnations of everyone else, God already knows
>who the problem children are, where they are, and how many He will take or
>leave.
>
>Funny, He does seem to hold legalists such as yourself in very high esteem.
Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
>
>Ike
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Read The Bible" <bible...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1126941481.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>> God already knows who the problem children are,
>>> where they are, and how many He will take or leave.
>>
>> The foundation of God standeth sure, having this
>> seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let
>> every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from
>> iniquity.
>
>God has nothing derogatory to say to Philidelphia.
>God only has to warn Smyrna to keep the faith to the end.
>God has a thing against a few in Thyatira.
>God holds these things against Ephesus.
>God has a few things against those in Pergamos.
>Only a few are worthy in Sardeis.
>God has nothing good to say to Laodicea.
>
>Seem God can handle things just fine, and will sort things out when He
>comes. He doesn't need you for judge or jury.
>
>[snip]
>
>You're good at citing verses. Too bad you don't know what they mean.
I have just come into this, but "Read The Bible"
<bible...@yahoo.com> only seems to be saying that people who say
that they are following the Messiah should stop committing evil
actions. Since Jesus said the same thing many times "...go and sin no
more," it seems that he has a pretty good handle on the meanings.
>
>Ike
>
>
>--
>
>******************************
>
>"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
>now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
>
>For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
>an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
A whole book of you adding to the Book of Revelation despite God's
warning "I warn everyone hearing the words of the prophecy in this
book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues
written in this book." No, thanks anyways.
***SNIP***
his_el...@yahoo.com
*THOSE* "WHO" *ARE* "ELECT" *WILL* "BE" *GATHERED" *TONY* "AND" *YOU*
"ARE" *ONE* "THAT" *GETS* "TO" *DECIDE* "IF" *YOU* "ARE" *AN* "ELECT"
*OF* "GOD"!!!
"After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers
that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of
man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he
send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of
heaven."
-- Mark 13:24-27
*AS* "HIS" *ELECT* "IN" *LIFE* "TONY" *AND* "KNOWING" *THAT* "GREAT"
*POWER* "AND" *GLORY* "ARE" *VERY* "REAL" *IN* "THE" *KINGDOM* "OF"
*HEAVEN* "I" *KNOW* "THAT" *THIS* "SCRIPTURE" *LISTED* "IN" *MARK* "IS"
*ACCURATELY* "WRITTEN"!!!
*THOSE* "WHO" *ARE* "GATHERED" *UNTO* "HIS" *GLORY* "ARE" *ALSO*
"THOSE" *WHO* "WOULD" *BE* "CONSIDERED" *ELECT* "AND" *CHOSEN* "AND"
*RIGHTEOUS* "PEOPLE" *FREE* "OF" *THEIR* "TRANSGRESSIONS" *AGAINST*
"THE" *LAWS* "OF" *GOD*!!!
*YOU* "SEE" *TONY* "JUST" *LIKE* "YOU" *THE* "WILL" *OF* "GOD" *IS*
"FREE" *TO* "CHOOSE" *WHAT* "IS" *ACCEPTABLE* "CONDUCT" *AND* "WHAT"
*IS* "UNACCEPTABLE" *CONDUCT*!!!
*THEREFORE*, "GOD" *HAS* "MADE" *IT* "CLEAR" *THOSE* "WHO" *OVERCOMETH*
"ARE" *MY* "SONS" *AND* "DAUGHTERS" *AND* "THOSE" *WHO* "GIVE" *IN*
"TO" *THE* "DEEDS" *OF* "TRANSGRESSING" *THE* "LAWS" *OF* "GOD" *ARE*
"THOSE" *WHO* "PLACE" *THEIR* "LIFE" *UNDER* "THE" *JUDGMENT* "OF"
*GOD* "AND" *HIS* "JUSTICE"!!!
*LET* "THERE" *BE* "NO" *MISTAKE* "ABOUT" *IT* "TONY" *WHEN* "GOD"
*COMMANDS* "THE" *PEOPLE* "TO" *RESTORE* "HIS" *LAWS* "AND" *STOP*
"SPREADING" *THESE* "WILLFUL" *ACTS* "OF" *DESTRUCTION* "AND" *CIVIL*
"DISOBEDIENCE" *AROUND* "HIS" *CREATION* "ALL" *BETTER* "BELIEVE"
*THAT* "THERE" *MUST* "BE" *ACCOUNTABILITY* "TO" *JUSTICE* "BY" *THOSE*
"WHO" *WOULD* "DO" *SUCH* "ACTS"!!!
*WHEN* "AN" *ACT* "IS" *COMMITTED* "IT" *IS* "BASED" *UPON* "DEEDS"
*AND* "THOSE" *DEEDS* "SOW" *THE* "SEEDS" *FOR* "WHAT" *KIND* "OF"
*RESPONSE* "GOD" *WILL* "GIVE" *TO* "THOSE" *INHABITING* "HIS"
*CREATION*!!!
*IF* "THEY" *SOW* "SEEDS" *OF* "DESTRUCTION" *THEY* "WILL" *REAP* "A"
*HARVEST* "OF" *DESTRUCTION* "IT" *IS* "THAT" *SIMPLE* "TONY" *AND*
"IT" *IS* "PARAMOUNT" *FOR* "THE" *PEOPLE* "TO" *RECOGNIZE* "THAT"
*GOD* "CAN" *AND* "GOD" *WILL* "UPHOLD" *HIS* "LAWS" *AS* "BEING"
*FIRST* "AND" *FOREMOST* "FOR" *THE* "SAKE" *OF* "HIS" *CREATION*!!!
*WITH* "THAT" *UNDERSTOOD* "LET" *THE* "WISDOM" *IN* "UNDERSTANDING"
*PENETRATE* "ALL" *CONSCIOUS* "INTELLECTS" *AS* "THIS" *SITUATION* "IS"
*VERY* "SERIOUS" *DOWN* "HERE" *AND* "IT" *IS* "COSTING" *A* "GREAT"
*MANY* "PEOPLE" *THEIR* "LIVES" *AND* "THEIR" *LOVED* "ONES" *ARE*
"BEING" *AFFECTED* "GREATLY"!!!
*THOSE* "WHO" *WILL* "SEEK" *TO* "BE" *GATHERED* "UNTO" *GOD* "ARE*
"THOSE" *WHO* "WILL" *NOT* "BE" *PARTAKERS* "OF" *DESTROYING* "HIS"
*CREATION* "AS" *IT* "IS" *WRITTEN* "THOSE" *WHO* "WOULD" *SPREAD*
"SUCH" *ACTS* "WILL" *HAVE* "ESTABLISHED" *THE* "FACTS" *AND* "THE"
*FACTS* "ABOUT" *THE* "TRANSGRESSORS" *WILL* "BE" *WEIGHED* "ON" *THE*
"GREAT" *SCALES* "OF" *JUSTICE* "AGAINST" *HIS* "LIGHT" *AS* "A"
*FEATHER* "LAWS"!!!
*WOE* "TO" *THE* "SOUL" *THAT* "WOULD" *WILFULLY* "ESTABLISH" *AN*
"ACT" *OF* "DESTROYING" *THE* "CREATION" *OF* "GOD" *FOR* "THEY"
*FORGET* "THE" *FIRST* "PART" *OF* "JOHN" *3:16* "STATES"... *FOR*
"GOD" *SO* "LOVED" *THE* "WORLD"...
*LET* "THIS" *SCRIPTURE* "BE" *YOUR* "GUIDING" *LIGHT* *IN* "TURNING"
*AWAY* "FROM" *BEING* "CALLED" *UP* "FOR" *THE* "JUDGMENT" *OF* "GOD"
*IF* "HIS" *JUSTICE* "HAS" *TO* "COME" *DOWN* "HERE" *AND* "ADDRESS"
*THIS* "SITUATION"!!!
*I* "ASSURE" *ALL* "LIFE" *ON* "EARTH" *AND* "HEAVEN" *THAT* "LORD"
*GOD* "ALMIGHTY" *WILL* "JUDGE" *THE* "SOULS" *OF* "THOSE" *WHO*
"WOULD" *DO* "THESE" *OUTRAGEOUS* "ACTS" *TO* "HIS" *PEOPLE* "AND"
*HIS* "CREATION"!!!
"HAVE" *A* "NICE" *DAY*...
"HIS" *ELECT*
P.S. *WHEN* "THE" *PEACE* "IS" *DESTROYED* "LET" *THERE* "BE" *NO*
"DOUBT" *ABOUT* "IT" *THAT* "GOD" *WILL* "HAVE" *HIS* "SAY" *TO* "THE"
*INHABITANTS* "OF" *THE* "EARTH" *SO* "BE" *YE* "ALL" *FOREWARNED*
"NOT" *TO* "TRIFLE" *WITH* "GOD" *WHEN* "IT" *COMES* "TO" *HIS*
"HEAVEN" *AND* "EARTH" *AND* "THEIR" *PEACEFUL* "AND" *HARMONIOUS*
"COHABITATION" *TOGETHER*!!!
P.P.S. *THAT* "IS" *AN* "ABSOLUTE" *NO* "NO" *FOR* "ANYBODY" *THAT*
"WANTS" *TO* "KEEP" *THEIR* "LIFE"!!! *YEAH* "HEAR" *YE* "DEAF" *AND*
"SEE" *YE* "BLIND" *FOR* "YE" *BE* "ALL" *SERVED* "NOTICE" *TO* "BE"
*FREE* "OF" *BEING* "A" *DESTROYER* "OF" *HIS* "WORLD" *AND* "OUR"
*HOME*!!!
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
You're right. You did just come into this and missed the beginning.
Dore was claiming that "overcoming" in prophecy refered to sin, whereas it
refers to "keeping the faith even unto death."
As usual, Dore turned the whole thing into a distorted legalist doctrine.
Ike
--
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Sorry, it was "Read the Bible." It's hard to keep the Ephesians seperate
from one another.
>>John declares who and what the 144,000 are:
>>
>>They keep the commandments of God / and have the testimony of Jesus
>>Christ.
>
> So, they cannot be Christians at all. Christians disavow/disobey the
> 613 Commandments.
They're both Jews and Christians.
And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're fulfilled in
Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our sins
in no way "disavows" the commandments.
>>The sing the song of Moses / and the song of the Lamb.
>>
>>The are not defiled with women / for they are virgins.
>
> Wrong!
> Virginity here is used as the prophets use it because it is a
> prophecy! Terms for sexual morality/immorality are used in Prophecy
> to describe Idolatry.
> Examples:
> Harlot = Idolater
> Harlotry = Idolatry
> Whore = Someone who commits idolatry for money or power
> Virgin = someone who has never committed even a slight act of
> idolatry.
> A man is not defined by having sex with his wife (unless she is
> menstruating). Remember Celibacy is a sin. Institutionalized
> Celibacy such as the Catholic church practices is TWO since it is also
> adultery; the original Hebrew, "Lo tinaf," forbids any betrayal of the
> covenant of marriage or mockery of the institution of marriage.
No shit, Sherlock.
Jesus uses the dual symbolisms in the same way he uses "Balaam and Barak"
and "Jezebel" in the Seven Letters.
"Balaaam and Barak" represents the masculine problem of putting righteousnes
before Grace.
"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is license.
(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe regard.)
It's all part of the symetry of prophecy.
Which brings us right back to those 140,000 Judeo-Christians who don't have
the feminine problem (playing the whore) or the masculine problem (playing
the ogre).
>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>
> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc. etc.
etc.
> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
>>> Fom the way it looks now they will be calling the Christian churches
>>> to repent of their dogmas and go back to the Bible!
>>
>>Jesus lays out the problems of the churches in the seven letters according
>>to a range and mix from one to seven:
>
> Jesus laid out the theology that jews were to follow. jews must
> remain Jewish and NEVER convert to Christianity if they are to accept
> Jesus as Messiah and be saved. Paul even wrote that the Jews must
> remain Jewish
Nonsense, but one would expect that from a Pharisee living in the image of
those who tried to corrupt the Gospel in the first century, too.
>>He keeps all of Philidelphia (7/7)
>>He takes most of Smyrna, but gives them a conditional warning not to
>>secumb
>>in tribulation (6/7)
>>He takes 1/3 of Thyatira (I have a thing against a few of you) because
>>some
>>confuse the Gospel of Grace with licensiousess (5/7)
>
> Protestantism - most likely Calvinist/non-Charismatic.
> Though your added in fraction seems a bit high for the percentage of
> Portestants to be saved.
>
>>He takes half of the Ephesians (I hold these things against you) because
>>half of them, such as yourself, leave behind their first love, the Gospel
>>of
>>God's grace, and return to the gospel of law, i.e. the gospel of death.
>
> That is not what the text says. You are adding to the book of
> Revelation, distinct "no-no" (Revelation 22:18).
Well, to go through the symbolisms and reveal "what the text says" is a 300+
page book I am presently working on.
That won't exactly fit here.
For now, we'll go through the simple list of the six initial sins of the
churches (with two more to come in the End of the Age).
Ephesus = the sin of legalism (a.k.a. Pharisee-like fundamentalists who put
law before grace) = 1st century.
Smyrna = the dangers of disloyalty to the Gospel in persecution = 2nd and
3rd century.
Pergamos = the reliance on high ceremony and ritual = The council of Nicea
to the reformation.
Thyatira = licentiousness = reformation era.
Sardeis = the immature churches = modernism (about 1800 to present).
Laodiceans = the marginalists = the Jesus Seminarians, Universalists, etc.
just coming to the fore.
(Left Philadelphia out because that letter represents the remnant yet to
come, forming a split with Laodicea.)
> In fact, this
> community of believers was warned that they lost their original
> zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
> Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
> Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
> doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
Ah, no, you just turned the facts around 180 degrees out of phase, exactly
as expected.
Paul rebuked the Ephesians for putting on the law again and leaving behind
the Gospel of Grace.
Moreover, Paul rebuked Peter for doing exactly what you said-circumcising
Gentiles--when circumcision of the flesh is now irrelavent to Jew and
Gentile alike.
>>(4/7)
>>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because of
>>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
>
> Christians of many denominations.
The pot calling the kettle black, Ephesian.
>>He takes only a few from Sardeis (a few of you are worthy) because they
>>are
>>immature. (2/7)
>
> Charismatic Christians.
> Many of them commit idolatry by worshiping miracles because of their
> immaturity.
Well, you seem to know what everybody else's letter is about.
Too bad you ignore yours, Ephesian.
>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>
> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
Worse than that.
Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New Testament
in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of Christ,
they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
No, Laodicea's sin runs much deeper than plain laziness.
>>So, despite your rambling condemnations of everyone else, God already
>>knows
>>who the problem children are, where they are, and how many He will take or
>>leave.
>>
>>Funny, He does seem to hold legalists such as yourself in very high
>>esteem.
>
> Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
> word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
> obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
Legalists are those who preach a Gospel of salvation or damnation by law,
rather than salvation or damnation by acceptance or rejection of God's grace
as established in Jesus Christ.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Sorry, it was "Read the Bible."
It's hard to keep the Ephesians seperated from one another.
--
Ranger Fan
<SNIP>
>>He takes half of the Ephesians (I hold these things against you) because
>>half of them, such as yourself, leave behind their first love, the Gospel of
>>God's grace, and return to the gospel of law, i.e. the gospel of death.
>
>That is not what the text says. You are adding to the book of
>Revelation, distinct "no-no" (Revelation 22:18). In fact, this
>community of believers was warned that they lost their original
>zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
>Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
>Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
>doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
Would you please cite the passage where Paul tells the Ephesians they
are converts to Judaism?
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Ranger Fan" <res0...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:rklri1dct2b9n2qs7...@4ax.com...
There isn't any.
That's where the problem lies.
God will never again establish the Jews, at least not in the context to
which Aaron refers. (They will, however, attempt to reestablish themselves.)
God has a different plan in mind.
The law ruled from the time Adam sinned to the time the Jews rejected Jesus
and turned the sacrifice over to the Gentiles.
From then until now the Gospel of Grace reigns, but that won't last forever,
either.
When the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God will close the door and move
on to the next great thing--the "whole Israel."
God will take half of the Jews (those who adhered to the Spirit of the Law,
not the letter of it) and half of those who call themselves Christians (the
half that doesn't get bogged down in the quagmire John outlines in the seven
letters) and he will bring them together to form the third Israel, the
Israel of law AND grace.
That is why the sealed 144,000 "are not defiled with women / for they are
virgins," "they keep the commandments of God / and have the testimony of
Jesus Christ," and "they sing the song of Moses / and the song of the Lamb:"
They will be 144,000 select men and women (statement 1) who adhere to the
Spirit of both the Old and New Testament (statement 2) in the balance of law
and grace (statement 3).
This is Jesus' entourage who "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." They (the
judges) will sit upon the seats of authority over the right hand (the kings)
and left hand (the priests) of the church in balance and symmetry. (Hence,
the "marriage" metaphor in Revelation, and the "tree" metaphor in Romans
chapter 11.)
Of course, this is whole concept is an affront to Aaron, who thinks that God
is continuing the dead religion of the Jews through the Gentiles. Nothing
could be further from the truth: If one can say that God is making Jews of
the Gentiles, than it is just as valid to say that God is making Gentiles of
the Jews.
The truth is, God isn't doing either: He is in the process of creating
"whole Israel," balanced in righteousness, judgment, and compassion, not
"whole Judaism" or "whole Christianity."
Which brings us back to the rapture mythology that this thread was about in
the first place: When Paul was talking about God taking up "those who are
alive and remain" after the resurrection of the dead, this sealed remnant of
the church was all he was talking about, not the church-at-large. The
church-at-large has two commandments where the end of the age is concerned:
Keep watching (not speculating or proclaiming), and keep the faith, even
unto death.
Aaron
Ephesians 4:17
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
Not possible. Christians reject the teachings of Jesus in favor of
man-made theologies.
>
>And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're fulfilled in
>Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our sins
>in no way "disavows" the commandments.
You are not making sense.
If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>
>
>>>The sing the song of Moses / and the song of the Lamb.
>>>
>>>The are not defiled with women / for they are virgins.
>>
>> Wrong!
>> Virginity here is used as the prophets use it because it is a
>> prophecy! Terms for sexual morality/immorality are used in Prophecy
>> to describe Idolatry.
>> Examples:
>> Harlot = Idolater
>> Harlotry = Idolatry
>> Whore = Someone who commits idolatry for money or power
>> Virgin = someone who has never committed even a slight act of
>> idolatry.
>> A man is not defined by having sex with his wife (unless she is
>> menstruating). Remember Celibacy is a sin. Institutionalized
>> Celibacy such as the Catholic church practices is TWO since it is also
>> adultery; the original Hebrew, "Lo tinaf," forbids any betrayal of the
>> covenant of marriage or mockery of the institution of marriage.
>
>
>No shit, Sherlock.
Aside from your unwarented attack, you did say the symbol and skip the
actual meaning. There was no way to know that you meant that these
men mever took Communion, celebrated Christmas or Easter and never
when to church on Sunday.
>
>Jesus uses the dual symbolisms in the same way he uses "Balaam and Barak"
>and "Jezebel" in the Seven Letters.
>
>"Balaaam and Barak" represents the masculine problem of putting righteousnes
>before Grace.
LOL
Obviouly to anyone who has read the Bible, you cannot have Grace
without the Law, therefore Righteousness and grace are intertwined and
inseprable.
>"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is license.
>(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe regard.)
So, Jezebel, in your opinion symbolized Christianity?
>
>It's all part of the symetry of prophecy.
>
>Which brings us right back to those 140,000 Judeo-Christians who don't have
>the feminine problem (playing the whore) or the masculine problem (playing
>the ogre).
So they are not christian at all, basically Orthodox Jews who accept
Jesus as Messiah! Yes, that fits!
>
>>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>>
>> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
>
>Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc. etc.
>etc.
No, they never met a christian. Christianity did not begin spliting
off from Jesus' faith until the end of the second Century CE.
>
>> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
>> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
>> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
>> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>
>Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
Since Jesus IS a Pharisee, you compliment me greatly!
>
>>>> Fom the way it looks now they will be calling the Christian churches
>>>> to repent of their dogmas and go back to the Bible!
>>>
>>>Jesus lays out the problems of the churches in the seven letters according
>>>to a range and mix from one to seven:
>>
>> Jesus laid out the theology that Jews were to follow. jews must
>> remain Jewish and NEVER convert to Christianity if they are to accept
>> Jesus as Messiah and be saved. Paul even wrote that the Jews must
>> remain Jewish
>
>Nonsense, but one would expect that from a Pharisee living in the image of
>those who tried to corrupt the Gospel in the first century, too.
So, Ike, since you cannot support your theology logically, you make
personal attacks. I guess that shows what kind of person you are.
>
>
>>>He keeps all of Philidelphia (7/7)
>>>He takes most of Smyrna, but gives them a conditional warning not to
>>>secumb
>>>in tribulation (6/7)
>>>He takes 1/3 of Thyatira (I have a thing against a few of you) because
>>>some
>>>confuse the Gospel of Grace with licensiousess (5/7)
>>
>> Protestantism - most likely Calvinist/non-Charismatic.
>> Though your added in fraction seems a bit high for the percentage of
>> Portestants to be saved.
>>
>>>He takes half of the Ephesians (I hold these things against you) because
>>>half of them, such as yourself, leave behind their first love, the Gospel
>>>of
>>>God's grace, and return to the gospel of law, i.e. the gospel of death.
>>
>> That is not what the text says. You are adding to the book of
>> Revelation, distinct "no-no" (Revelation 22:18).
>
>Well, to go through the symbolisms and reveal "what the text says" is a 300+
>page book I am presently working on.
Yes, a book that adds your personal fantasies to the book of
Revelations, and the author of Revelation promises that anyone who
adds to the book will have added to him all the plagues described in
the book of Revelation. Maybe, for your own sake, you should re-think
your plan.
>
>That won't exactly fit here.
>
>For now, we'll go through the simple list of the six initial sins of the
>churches (with two more to come in the End of the Age).
>
>Ephesus = the sin of legalism (a.k.a. Pharisee-like fundamentalists who put
>law before grace) = 1st century.
That is NOT Pharisaic theology. You should not use a word when you
are obviously ignorant of its meaning. Jesus Himself is a Pharisee,
and you used His beliefs as an insult. Very Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jesus)
of you!
In Pharisaic Judaism, grace was more important than the Law.
Christians frequently miss this concept because God was a lot more
important to the Pharisees that He is to Christians.
>Smyrna = the dangers of disloyalty to the Gospel in persecution = 2nd and
>3rd century.
>Pergamos = the reliance on high ceremony and ritual = The council of Nicea
>to the reformation.
So you say that this would be Catholics and Greek Orthodox...
Your identification of these denominations with Pergamos is purely
theoretical. I am not saying that you are wrong here, but Catholicism
is also the Whore of Babylon, so I would like to see how you harmonize
these theories.
>Thyatira = licentiousness = reformation era.
Again a theory. This would include the non-Charismatic denominations
of Protestantism.
>Sardeis = the immature churches = modernism (about 1800 to present).
Again a theory. This would be the Charismatic Protestants.
>Laodiceans = the marginalists = the Jesus Seminarians, Universalists, etc.
>just coming to the fore.
Again a theory. Mormons, JWs and nominal Christians.
>
>(Left Philadelphia out because that letter represents the remnant yet to
>come, forming a split with Laodicea.)
>
>
>> In fact, this
>> community of believers was warned that they lost their original
>> zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
>> Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
>> Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
>> doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
>
>Ah, no, you just turned the facts around 180 degrees out of phase, exactly
>as expected.
No, Ike. YOU seem to be mistaken. You are reading Revelation with
your own personal prejudices and completely ignoring the Book of
Ephesians.
>
>Paul rebuked the Ephesians for putting on the law again and leaving behind
>the Gospel of Grace.
No he did not.
In Ephesians 4:17, he said that they were longer
Goyim/Ethnos/Pagans/Gentiles. He continued to describe the ways of
the Gentiles with great disdain and revulsion.
>
>Moreover, Paul rebuked Peter for doing exactly what you said-circumcising
>Gentiles--when circumcision of the flesh is now irrelavent to Jew and
>Gentile alike.
Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
the Law. Peter followed a man-made stricture against eating with
Gntiles, even converts, because Gentiles were unclean. The Bible does
say that Toshavim (people who have not accepted the covenant
(including all of the Law)) are unclean, but the NT specifies that it
is at the point where they dedicate themselves to learning and obeying
the Commandmants that they become Gerim (Converts to Judaism). There
is no prohibition against eating with the Toshavim, they simply cannot
partake of the Passover either the physical animal Offering or that of
Jesus. The Bible does require Jews to treat gerim with respect.
Since the people in Peter's synagogue had made the commitment to serve
God, Peter was not only allowed to eat with them, he was required to
show them this respect. Paul, while serving Messiah converted
literally thousands of Gentiles to Judaism.
Circumcision of the flesh is a commandment of God's. It is only
irrelivant if the person then acts as if he is not part of the
Covenant, just like Paul wote.
>
>>>(4/7)
>>>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because of
>>>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
>>
>> Christians of many denominations.
>
>The pot calling the kettle black, Ephesian.
I have never been to that city.
>
>>>He takes only a few from Sardeis (a few of you are worthy) because they
>>>are
>>>immature. (2/7)
>>
>> Charismatic Christians.
>> Many of them commit idolatry by worshiping miracles because of their
>> immaturity.
>
>Well, you seem to know what everybody else's letter is about.
>
>Too bad you ignore yours, Ephesian.
Ike, you have demonstrated complete ignorance of what was said to the
epesians because you seem to have an irrational aversion to the Word
of God. You denounce the Commandmants that God, in his Grace, gave
us.
>
>>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>>
>> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>
>Worse than that.
>
>Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New Testament
>in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of Christ,
>they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
The New and Old Testaments completely agree with each other.
Since both are the word of God, and God never lies and never makes
mistakes, they cannot disagree on even a tiny point.
>
>No, Laodicea's sin runs much deeper than plain laziness.
I actually meant that they were more than just lazy, so I will not
dispute that.
>
>>>So, despite your rambling condemnations of everyone else, God already
>>>knows
>>>who the problem children are, where they are, and how many He will take or
>>>leave.
>>>
>>>Funny, He does seem to hold legalists such as yourself in very high
>>>esteem.
>>
>> Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
>> word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
>> obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
>
>Legalists are those who preach a Gospel of salvation or damnation by law,
>rather than salvation or damnation by acceptance or rejection of God's grace
>as established in Jesus Christ.
Maybe...
You used a few catch-phrases there, but you might be correct.
Do you mean that they teach that salvation must be earned by
(mis)using the Law?
>
>>>Ike
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
Which is why I only commented on the part of his post that I read.
>
>Dore was claiming that "overcoming" in prophecy refered to sin, whereas it
>refers to "keeping the faith even unto death."
Since actual faith in Messiah and faith in God require obedience to
all the Commandments as well as an understanding that this obedience
does not "earn" salvation through this obedience. Obviously "keeping
faithful even unto death" means obeying the Commandmants, and trusting
that the death of Messiah provides the atonement that allows us to
eneter heaven.
>
>As usual, Dore turned the whole thing into a distorted legalist doctrine.
From what YOU have written he is correct, but incomplete.
>
>Ike
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
[snip]
> Not possible. Christians reject the teachings of Jesus in favor of
> man-made theologies.
As usual, you have it backwards: It was the man-made theologies of the Jews
that prompted God to send Jesus to straigten out the situation.
>>And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're fulfilled
>>in
>>Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our
>>sins
>>in no way "disavows" the commandments.
>
> You are not making sense.
To a Jew still trying to live under the burden of the law, no I wouldn't.
> If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
> true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
> obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
> intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
Jesus fulfilled the law that man could never keep, and, in its place,
established salvation by grace. Immediately the Pharisees that infiltrated
the early church set about the work of perverting Jesus' Good News, laying
the yoke of law back on man's shoulders despite God's grace.
> Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
Jesus has two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor.
The rest are fulfilled in Him (but woe to those who teach that grace is
license).
[sip]
>>Jesus uses the dual symbolisms in the same way he uses "Balaam and Barak"
>>and "Jezebel" in the Seven Letters.
>>
>>"Balaaam and Barak" represents the masculine problem of putting
>>righteousnes
>>before Grace.
>
> LOL
> Obviouly to anyone who has read the Bible, you cannot have Grace
> without the Law, therefore Righteousness and grace are intertwined and
> inseprable.
Grace was necessary because of the law, which no man (save Jesus) could
keep.
>>"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is
>>license.
>>(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe regard.)
>
> So, Jezebel, in your opinion symbolized Christianity?
"Jezebel," "Balaam and Barak," and the "Nicolaitans" represent divisive
factions that would (and have) risen within the churches.
"Jezebel" represents the difilement of believers via the seduction of
spiritual whoredom.
"Balaam and Barak" represent the difilement of believers via the deception
of false ritual and ordinance.
The "Nicolaitans" represent the difilement of believers via the perversion
of judgment.
>>It's all part of the symetry of prophecy.
>>
>>Which brings us right back to those 140,000 Judeo-Christians who don't
>>have
>>the feminine problem (playing the whore) or the masculine problem (playing
>>the ogre).
>
> So they are not christian at all, basically Orthodox Jews who accept
> Jesus as Messiah! Yes, that fits!
Orthodox Judaism is dead. It died when Jesus said "Amen" to the destruction
of the temple.
>>>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>>>
>>> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
>>
>>Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc. etc.
>>etc.
The 144,000 come from the lineage of the Jews, but believe in the Gospel of
Jesus Christ, without the perversions of the Pharisees, Saducees, and
Herodians.
> No, they never met a christian. Christianity did not begin spliting
> off from Jesus' faith until the end of the second Century CE.
Christianity IS Jesus' faith.
>>> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
>>> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
>>> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
>>> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>>
>>Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
>
> Since Jesus IS a Pharisee, you compliment me greatly!
Your delusions know no bounds: Jesus was not a party to any of the
perversities of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin.
[snip]
>>Nonsense, but one would expect that from a Pharisee living in the image of
>>those who tried to corrupt the Gospel in the first century, too.
>
> So, Ike, since you cannot support your theology logically, you make
> personal attacks. I guess that shows what kind of person you are.
You wear your defilements of the Gospel like a badge of honor, and anyone
who knows the teachings of Jesus Christ can plainly see it.
[snip]
> Yes, a book that adds your personal fantasies to the book of
> Revelations, and the author of Revelation promises that anyone who
> adds to the book will have added to him all the plagues described in
> the book of Revelation. Maybe, for your own sake, you should re-think
> your plan.
I already have the plagues. I have all my life. And there are more yet to
come. Bring them all on. It still doesn't change the fact that what I am
saying is the truth, plagues be damned.
(Funny thing about the Bible: One has to know when to keep the letter of the
rules, and when to break the letter of the rules, as did Jesus.)
>>That won't exactly fit here.
>>
>>For now, we'll go through the simple list of the six initial sins of the
>>churches (with two more to come in the End of the Age).
>>
>>Ephesus = the sin of legalism (a.k.a. Pharisee-like fundamentalists who
>>put
>>law before grace) = 1st century.
>
> That is NOT Pharisaic theology. You should not use a word when you
> are obviously ignorant of its meaning. Jesus Himself is a Pharisee,
> and you used His beliefs as an insult. Very Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jesus)
> of you!
1) It IS Pharisaic theology. It's what Paul had to fight against when the
infiltrators of Judaism started preaching this and that law, and
circumcising Gentiles, teaching them to put behind their first love and
readopt the ordinances, sitting in council against one another. Fortunately,
Paul and the gang clarified the situation and put a stop to the problem at
the council of Jerusalem. [Acts 15:27-29]
"We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the
same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to
lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain
from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and
from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare
ye well."
This is the whole end of the matter of the law where Christians are
concerned. God deals with the rest as He goes.
2) Jesus was in no way a party to the Pharisees, Saducees, or Sanhedrin.
These things He prophecies against, and these things He destroyed.
3) I am very pro-Semitic, pro-Jesus, and pro-Old Testament, but I am
anti-abomination, which means anti-Pharisee, anti-Saducee, and
anti-Herodian, especially when these characters come insidiously creeping in
the back door to pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
> In Pharisaic Judaism, grace was more important than the Law.
> Christians frequently miss this concept because God was a lot more
> important to the Pharisees that He is to Christians.
LOL. Christians didn't "miss" the concept. It was never there to begin with.
>>Smyrna = the dangers of disloyalty to the Gospel in persecution = 2nd and
>>3rd century.
>>Pergamos = the reliance on high ceremony and ritual = The council of Nicea
>>to the reformation.
>
> So you say that this would be Catholics and Greek Orthodox...
> Your identification of these denominations with Pergamos is purely
> theoretical. I am not saying that you are wrong here, but Catholicism
> is also the Whore of Babylon, so I would like to see how you harmonize
> these theories.
The Whore of Babylon hasn't reared her ugly head yet. But she peeks out once
in awhile to see if it is safe to come out.
Do Catholicism and Orthodoxy have problems. Absolutely! The ones laid out in
the letter to Pergamos.
Then again, all the other churches problems are laid out in the other
letters, so to single out Catholicism and Orthodoxy for judgment before its
time is the evil of the accuser.
Take out the good half from the combination of all seven churches by
accusation, persecution, discrimination, and defilement, and what you have
left is the Whore of Babylon. We're not there yet, so you bring judgment
against yourself with your judgement.
Then again, Pharisees are all about judgment, aren't they?
>>Thyatira = licentiousness = reformation era.
>
> Again a theory. This would include the non-Charismatic denominations
> of Protestantism.
Don't make the mistake of thinking purely chronologically: Certain
fundamentalist churches may have come after the others, but they are still
Ephesians.
>>Sardeis = the immature churches = modernism (about 1800 to present).
>
> Again a theory. This would be the Charismatic Protestants.
Too limiting a distinction.
Jesus starts the letter with the credentials that He hold the seven stars in
His right hand, so the problems are across the spectrum of the seven
Spirits, i.e.:
-Seeking glory in the political arena.
-Seeking honor in the courts.
-Claiming power from God they don't have.
-Claiming wisdom they haven't earned by disciplined practice and procedure.
-Prosperity preaching.
-Seeking the false blessings of noteriety, i.e. sensationalism, especially
in the media.
-Using bullying tactics to impose their will on the unbelievers.
-Claiming all these things are done in the name of God when they are doing
it in their own name.
>>Laodiceans = the marginalists = the Jesus Seminarians, Universalists, etc.
>>just coming to the fore.
>
> Again a theory. Mormons, JWs and nominal Christians.
Not a theory: Laodicea addresses the cold, dead faith of the latter-day
intellectuals who attack the authenticity and authority of the Word, the
reality and divinity of Jesus Christ, etc. etc.
Your statement is just a "theory," without reference to the symbolisms in
the text.
[snip]
>>> In fact, this
>>> community of believers was warned that they lost their original
>>> zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
>>> Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
>>> Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
>>> doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
>>
>>Ah, no, you just turned the facts around 180 degrees out of phase, exactly
>>as expected.
>
> No, Ike. YOU seem to be mistaken. You are reading Revelation with
> your own personal prejudices and completely ignoring the Book of
> Ephesians.
You make your assumptions in your own personal extinct Jewish frame of
reference and ingnore the entire New Testament.
>>Paul rebuked the Ephesians for putting on the law again and leaving behind
>>the Gospel of Grace.
>
> No he did not.
> In Ephesians 4:17, he said that they were longer
> Goyim/Ethnos/Pagans/Gentiles. He continued to describe the ways of
> the Gentiles with great disdain and revulsion.
Christians are "Israel," but they are not "Jews," at least not Jews that in
any way has to do with the Pharisees, Saducees, and Herodians, i.e. the
traditional (and dead) Judaism you espouse.
>>Moreover, Paul rebuked Peter for doing exactly what you said-circumcising
>>Gentiles--when circumcision of the flesh is now irrelavent to Jew and
>>Gentile alike.
>
> Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
> the Law.
Paul rebuked Peter for circumcising Gentiles, plain and simple, and for
taking on the Pharisees seperatist attitudes.
[snip]
>>>>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because
>>>>of
>>>>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
>>>
>>> Christians of many denominations.
>>
>>The pot calling the kettle black, Ephesian.
>
> I have never been to that city.
You ARE that city.
[snip]
> Ike, you have demonstrated complete ignorance of what was said to the
> epesians because you seem to have an irrational aversion to the Word
> of God. You denounce the Commandmants that God, in his Grace, gave
> us.
Rather, you are completly ignorant of what the letter to Ephesus really
says, for it speaks of you, and you don't want to hear it.
I know my church and its problems, which is the beginning of healthly
healing.
You, however, don't know your own.
>>>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>>>
>>> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>>
>>Worse than that.
>>
>>Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New Testament
>>in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of
>>Christ,
>>they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
>
> The New and Old Testaments completely agree with each other.
> Since both are the word of God, and God never lies and never makes
> mistakes, they cannot disagree on even a tiny point.
The New and Old Testament are opposite sides of the same coin (for now).
The age of law has passed.
We are now in the age of grace.
In due course of time, God will put them together as He sees fit.
[snip]
>>> Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
>>> word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
>>> obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
>>
>>Legalists are those who preach a Gospel of salvation or damnation by law,
>>rather than salvation or damnation by acceptance or rejection of God's
>>grace
>>as established in Jesus Christ.
>
> Maybe...
> You used a few catch-phrases there, but you might be correct.
> Do you mean that they teach that salvation must be earned by
> (mis)using the Law?
Salvation by grace and the law have nothing to do with each other, except
that the law makes salvation by grace (without law) necessary.
Now, and at this time, we are saved by grace through faith, and we do not
add or subtract anything to it or from it.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
> Since actual faith in Messiah and faith in God require obedience to
> all the Commandments as well as an understanding that this obedience
> does not "earn" salvation through this obedience. Obviously "keeping
> faithful even unto death" means obeying the Commandmants, and trusting
> that the death of Messiah provides the atonement that allows us to
> eneter heaven.
Salvation by grace "requires" nothing but faith (maturity and growth not
withstanding).
Being "faithful unto death" is to throw ourselves onto the mercy of God's
court, and trust in His forgiveness (not our merits) to sustain us.
And now, ladies and gentlemen, listening to Aaron, you know why Jesus said
we would be led into the synagogues for our trials and executions.
Salvation by grace alone simply isn't good enough for the Pharisees, and, in
due course of time, they'll kill you for not adhering to their laws and
ordinances.
In other words, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be at the end.
Ike
Read The Bible
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and
with the house of Judah: Not according to the
covenant that I made with their fathers in the day
that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the
land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the
first old.
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of
necessity a change also of the law.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment
going before for the weakness and unprofitableness
thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the
bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we
draw nigh unto God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no
flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is
the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of
God without the law is manifested, being witnessed
by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness
of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no
difference: For all have sinned, and come short of
the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye
not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had
two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a
freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born
after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by
promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are
the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai,
which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this
Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to
Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her
children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which
is the mother of us all.
Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut
up unto the faith which should afterwards be
revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to
bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by
faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer
under a schoolmaster.
>> They are not defiled with women / for they are
>> virgins.
>
> Wrong!
The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were
redeemed from the earth. These are they which were
not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These
are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
It is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All
men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it
is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so
born from their mother's womb: and there are some
eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be
eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the
kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive
it, let him receive it.
> Virgin = someone who has never committed even a
> slight act of idolatry
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and
shall call his name Immanuel.
> the institution of marriage
Seek not a wife.
Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou
have sons or daughters.
> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian
God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace
by Jesus Christ.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know
assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom
ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
And the disciples were called Christians first in
Antioch.
If any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be
ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Are they Hebrews? so am I (Paul). Are they
Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham?
so am I.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.
Read The Bible
When Peter was come to Antioch, I (Paul) withstood
him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For
before that certain came from James, he did eat with
the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew
and separated himself, fearing them which were of the
circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise
with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried
away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that
they walked not uprightly according to the truth of
the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If
thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of
Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou
the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews
by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have
believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified
by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the
law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we
ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ
the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build
again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a
transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the
law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with
Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the
flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who
loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate
the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the
law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the
truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been
evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only
would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye
so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now
made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many
things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore
that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh
miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the
law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham
believed God, and it was accounted to him for
righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are
of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And
the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the
heathen through faith, preached before the gospel
unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be
blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed
with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under
the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one
that continueth not in all things which are written
in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is
justified by the law in the sight of God, it is
evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the
law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them
shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the
curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it
is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a
tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the
Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive
the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a
man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man
disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and
his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to
seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed,
which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant,
that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law,
which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot
disannul, that it should make the promise of none
effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is
no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by
promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was
added because of transgressions, till the seed
should come to whom the promise was made; and it was
ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a
mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is
the law then against the promises of God? God forbid:
for if there had been a law given which could have
given life, verily righteousness should have been by
the law.
---
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose
up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how
that a good while ago God made choice among us, that
the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the
gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the
hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy
Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference
between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon
the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers
nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through
the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,
even as they.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:20:32 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
> <Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>>news:t0bsi19r7jp4h9h0m...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Since actual faith in Messiah and faith in God require obedience to
>>> all the Commandments as well as an understanding that this obedience
>>> does not "earn" salvation through this obedience. Obviously "keeping
>>> faithful even unto death" means obeying the Commandmants, and trusting
>>> that the death of Messiah provides the atonement that allows us to
>>> eneter heaven.
>>
>>Salvation by grace "requires" nothing but faith (maturity and growth not
>>withstanding).
>
> word "emmunah" and/or the Greek word "pistis," both of which mean a
> moral conviction that brings about actions. So, without obedience to
> God's Commandmants, there is no faith.
>
>>
>>Being "faithful unto death" is to throw ourselves onto the mercy of God's
>>court, and trust in His forgiveness (not our merits) to sustain us.
>
> To "be faithful unto death," you actually have to BE faithful sy
> obeying God's Commandmants.
>
>>
>>And now, ladies and gentlemen, listening to Aaron, you know why Jesus said
>>we would be led into the synagogues for our trials and executions.
>
> and flogged for polytheism. However since Jesus taught in synagogues
> so often, and never taught in a church, it can only be your
> anti-Semitism that caused you to say that. Yes, Ike, I went to your
> website and saw your opposition to Romans, Deuteronomy, Genesis,
> Revelation, and so on.
Mr 13:9-11 et al.
"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils;
and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before
rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel
must first be published among all nations.
"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak,
but the Holy Ghost."
>>Salvation by grace alone simply isn't good enough for the Pharisees, and,
>>in
>>due course of time, they'll kill you for not adhering to their laws and
>>ordinances.
>
> Jesus IS a Pharisee, and He taught that those who obey God's
> commandmants are saved by grace, while those who reject the
> Commandments are not saved even when they call upon Him for salvation
> (Matthew 7:21-23).
Jesus was never, ever a Pharisee.
That has to be one of the most warped lies against scripture ever spoken.
>>In other words, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be at the end.
>
> Yes, Christians pretending to follow Jesus will attack the people who
> really follow Jesus, just as you do Ike.
You're not following Jesus. You're wallowing in the religion of death
created by infiltrators into Israel.
The 5th Horseman
A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH - DOES THE BIBLE TEACH IT?
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise
first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be
with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:15-17).
The above New Testament quotation describes the Rapture of the Church.
The blessed hope of the Christian is Christ taking him to Himself forever,
as He promises in John 14:2,3, "In my father's house are many mansions; if
it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." The question is, WHEN?
"Rapture" is taken from the Latin word raptus, translated "caught up" from
the verb rapere, which means "to transport from one place to another." The
Greek original is harpazo, which denotes a violent SNATCHING AWAY.
The Rapture is the time when faithful Christians are suddenly snatched
away from the earth to be with the Lord Jesus Christ. A split second ahead
of the translation of living Christians is the resurrection of "the dead in
Christ." In heaven, or in earth's atmosphere, or in space, they will be
judged before the Judgment Seat of Christ for rewards (2 Cor. 5:10 ; 1 Cor.
3:10-15) while on earth, for seven years, those left behind will be
undergoing the test of their lives under the most terrible period of time
known as "the Tribulation" (Matt. 24:29).
I used to ignore the topic "Rapture of the Church" whenever I encountered
it in my readings. After all, I had been taught that the only Second Coming
of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be visible, with power and great
glory; that there will be no secret Rapture. Some writers I've read
virtually ridiculed the "rapture theory." I gave my silent assent as a
matter of course.
Lately, however, I got myself interested in the subject and, to my
surprise, I found out that a preTribulation Rapture of the Church has more
scriptural bases than postTribulationists will care to admit. At the outset
let me point out that postTribulationists - those who hold that the Rapture
will happen after the Great Tribulation - have no great doctrinal variance
with preTribulationists, those who believe that the Rapture will occur
shortly before the Tribulation Period starts. They are both
premillennialists. The bone of contention, therefore, is the timing of the
Rapture in relation to the Tribulation Period.
First of all, let's make sure what period of time we are referring to. We've
all heard about "the great tribulation," at least those of us who are Bible
readers. Even then there are different beliefs about this subject. Some
say it all had happened in AD 70 when the Roman General Titus burned
Jerusalem and the temple. Others believe that the great tribulation has
been going on since the first century. Let's see what the Bible says.
THE TRIBULATION
The Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and 25 gives us the certainty
we are looking for. The disciples asked Jesus, "Tell us, when shall these
things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the
world?" Here it is clear that it is about the end of the age that the
disciples were asking about. The Tribulation, then, is that short period of
time - seven years - that immediately precedes the "end of the world," or
age.
The Lord gave the general course of events in the world from His time to
the end of this age. He enumerated a series of prophesied occurrences which
have characterised the world. False teachers, wars, famines, pestilences,
and earthquakes spoken of in Matt. 24:4-7 have been happening since our
Savior uttered those words, only with increased intensities in the last
century.
Persecutions described in verses 9-13, as applied to Christians, began
almost immediately after the establishment of the Church on Pentecost. The
fulfillment of this part of the Olivet Prophecy is well documented (I have
my copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs), and will no doubt continue with
increased severity in the near future.
Matthew 24:14 has a double reference. In line with the great commission
in 28:19,20 this prophecy refers first to the Church preaching the gospel of
salvation to the world, beginning in Jerusalem (Acts 1:8). Secondly, it
refers to the powerful preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom during the
Tribulation Period to be carried out by the 144,000 Jewish evangelists (Rev.
7:3,4) and by the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:3). The end will come, Christ
says, only after the gospel of the Kingdom has been preached in all the
world. The exact fulfillment of this particular prophecy will come only
during the Tribulation, when once again, the focus of God will be on the
Jews' part in proclaiming the promised Kingdom of God to be established
literally on earth.
Some contend that there will be no literal Kingdom of God, also known as
the Millennium (Rev.20:1-6). But they are mistaken. Acts 1:6 says, "When
they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt
thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" We should remember
that Jesus had been with His disciples for forty days after His
resurrection, "speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"
(Acts 1:3). The fact that they asked the Lord about "the kingdom" points to
Him having taught them about it. Notice that He did not censure the
disciples' query. He did not say, "who says there's going to be a literal
Kingdom of God on earth?" Instead, He answered, "It is not for you to know
the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (verse
7). But I have digressed. our concern for the moment is to pin down the
Tribulation. Then we will determine, from the word of God, when the Rapture
is going to happen in relation to the Tribulation.
A UNIQUE PERIOD OF TIME
Matthew 24:15-28 deals with the Great Tribulation. Notice in particular
verses 21 and 22. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And
except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but
for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The Tribulation will
be a unique period of time in world history. Nothing that has gone before
is like it. This proves that the preterists' belief that the prophecies of
Matthew 24 had all been fulfilled in AD 70 is wrong. Hitler's Holocaust was
greater than AD 70 in the number of Jews killed. And Christ foretold that
the Tribulation will be greater than the Holocaust! Not only for the Jews,
but this time the whole world will be affected by the coming judgment from
God.
I don't want to sound like a doomsday prophet, but if we are going to be
realistic about it, we can't help but conclude this world as it is is not
facing the best of times. Somehow we can feel that something ominous is
going to descend upon us all. Recently, I watched a news item on television
about Russia testing her 1991 missiles "for future use." The Middle East
continues to be volatile like a tinder box ready to explode anytime;
violence there has not stopped. Iran is very vocal about her intentions.
But global war is not the only threat to world stability. The weather
pattern worldwide has gone awry, with more than the normal number of strong
typhoons, tornadoes, hurricanes. Depletion of ozone gas layer continues
unabated, with impending dire consequences to all life on the planet.
Earthquakes, as prophesied by the Lord, are occurring "in divers places."
The December 26, 2004 earthquake-generated tsunami that hit south Asia and
part of east Africa is a specific fulfillment of His prophecy - ".upon the
earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which
are coming on the earth." (Luke 21:25,26). I have always believed that this
prophecy will come to pass inside the Tribulation Period. Now I have to
adjust a little bit. No doubt the full fury of tsunamis are yet to come,
but the December 26 catastrophe serves to warn the world of the soon-coming
judgment of God, and at the same time to awaken a sleeping Church, asleep to
prophecy (Luke 18:8 ; Matt. 25:5).
For clarity and for specific signification we will call the last seven
years of this world the Tribulation, and the second half of that period -
the last three and a half years - the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21). This
brings us to the book of Daniel. We will return to the Olivet Discourse
later.
DANIEL'S 70 -WEEK PROPHECY
Here is the explanation why the Tribulation will last seven years, after
which Christ will come in power and great glory. It is in Daniel 9:24-27.
The prophet Daniel was given by God a prophecy on the nation Israel and
its capital city Jerusalem about 530 BC. The prophet had been confessing
Israel's sins and his own when the angel Gabriel delivered to him probably
the most amazing prophecy in the Bible, the prophecy of the "Seventy Weeks."
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to
finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy" (Dan.
9:24). Seventy weeks of years is meant here, or 490 Biblical years of 360
days a year. We know that the first half of the verse was fulfilled by
Christ at His first coming almost two thousand years ago - "to finish the
transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for
iniquity." The other half He will fulfill at His Second Coming.
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after three score
and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" (verses 25,
26a). Nehemiah testified (Nehemiah 2:1-8) that the proclamation by Persian
King Artaxerxes Longimanus to rebuild Jerusalem came out on Nisan 1, 445 BC,
calculated by the Royal Observatory, Greenwich to be March 14, 445 BC.
Sixty nine weeks, or 483 years (i.e., 173,880 days) from March 14, 445 BC
would bring us to April 6, AD 32, the exact day when Jesus Christ was
presented to the Jews as their Messiah (Luke 19:36-44). (This is based on
the computations made by Sir Robert Anderson in his Christological
interpretation of the 70-Week Prophecy.) The exact timing of His triumphal
entry into Jerusalem is a proof of His Messiahship. Had he entered Jerusalem
sooner or later, it would mean He was not the "Messiah the Prince." Here we
have an example of how exact and reliable Bible prophecies are. We can
therefore be sure that the specific prophecies that refer to our time will
come to pass precisely as written in the Holy Scriptures (1 Pet. 1:19-21).
Just as the angel Gabriel predicted, the Messiah was "cut off," that is,
slain - crucified - after the 69 weeks of years had expired, not for Himself
but for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16). It happened within five
days. Then what?
"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and
the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end
of the war desolations are determined" (Dan. 9:26b). This was fulfilled in
AD 70 when the Romans under Titus burned Jerusalem and the temple. Thirty
seven years had passed since AD 32 before verse 26b was fulfilled, therefore
it is obvious that the last week of the Seventy-Week-Prophecy - or the last
seven years - cannot have been fulfilled at that time. God's time clock for
Israel must have stopped at the close of the 69 weeks in AD 32. Yet the
prophecy must fulfill all of the 70 weeks.
The 70th Week: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one
week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the
oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make
it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
poured upon the desolate" (verse 27). Who is "he" that shall confirm a
covenant with many for one week? Here is an error in interpretation made by
some. It is supposed that "he" is the Messiah accomplishing His ministry
for seven years but was killed "in the midst of the week." It is believed
that God's time clock for the Seventy Weeks stopped at the Crucifixion and
will re-start at the Second Coming, and the Messiah will preach again for
another three and a half years. That there is a Prophetic Gap of about 2000
years after the 69 weeks is seen correctly. But the interpretation is
wrong. For one thing, and this is important, the antecedent of "he" is
misplaced. And the "covenant" is misunderstood. The whole seventieth week
is wrongly interpreted to be the Messiah's preaching ministry to the Jews.
Who, then, is "he" and what is the "covenant"? The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
none other than "the prince that shall come" mentioned in verse 26. Bible
expositors agree that he is the end-time Antichrist. He is the Beast from
the sea (Rev. 13) and the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8. He is referred to by
Christ in John 5:43, ".if another shall come in his own name, him ye will
receive." This coming personal Antichrist will be accepted by the Jews as
their messiah. When this powerful man appears on the world scene he will
make a "covenant" - or a treaty - with many for seven years. The "many"
refers to the nation of Israel and other nations. Since Jerusalem, in the
last days, will become "a cup of trembling. a burdensome stone for all
people" (Zech. 12:2,3), the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 must be a
peace settlement for Jerusalem and the whole Middle East. The man who will
be able to bring about peace in the region will be looked up to by the
whole world as a hero, in fact more than a hero - he will be worshipped
(Rev. 13:3,4,8). But after three and a half years from the signing of the
treaty - "in the midst of the week"- his true colors will come out. He will
break the formal agreement with the Jews and will enter the rebuilt temple
in Jerusalem, causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and proclaim
that he is God (2 Thess. 2:4)! Why, he is also "that man of sin. the son of
perdition" (verse 3).
We have seen that the 70th Week of Daniel 9:24-27 is yet to come. God's
prophetic time clock for His plan for the Jews and for the establishment of
the Kingdom stopped on April 6, AD 32, when the Messiah was formally
rejected by the Jews (John 1:11). Within two months the Church was
inaugurated on the day of Pentecost (John 1:12.13 ; Acts 2). We are right
now in the closing days of the Prophetic Gap between the 69 Weeks and the
70th Week. The last seven years to complete the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27
are being held in abeyance by the presence of the Church of God on earth (2
Thess. 2:6-8). The Church, because it will no longer have role on the earth
during that time (Rom. 11:25), will be raptured to heaven shortly before the
70th Week sets in.
We are now ready, in this article, to appreciate the scriptural proofs for
a preTribulation Rapture of the Church. But before that, let me get back to
the Tribulation which corresponds to the 70th Week.
THE TRIBULATION DESCRIBED
The following scriptures give other names for the impending Tribulation
that will engulf this unsuspecting world:
"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a
destruction from the Almighty. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel
both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall
destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Therefore I will shake the heavens,
and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of
hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger" (Isaiah 13:6,9,13).
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time
of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (Jer. 30:7).
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed
till the time of the end" (Dan.12:9).
"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(Rev.6:17)
".Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come;
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains
of waters" (Rev. 14:7).
"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it
be in the end of the world" (Matt. 13:40).
"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about
thee; hide thy self as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be
overpast. For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury
upon all their armies." (Isaiah 26:20 ; 34:2).
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth
for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time trouble, such as
never was since there was a nation even to that same time." (Dan. 12:1).
1. "AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE. . ."
Proof number one for a preTribulation Rapture of the Church is in the
Olivet Discourse itself. I never realised it before but it is now clear to
me.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes
of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:29,30). This is the
glorious Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is plain that He will come after
the Tribulation. Verse 31, at first glance, is the strongest proof for a
postTribulation Rapture: "And he shall send his angels with a great shout of
a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other."
Now, where is the preTrib Rapture there, you might say. It's so plain
that Christ, as He descends from heaven, uses His angels to rapture the
Church at His Second Coming. How could you explain that away in order to
push a preTrib Rapture?
Before further explanation, let me go forward in Matthew 24. "But of that
day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father
only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
man be" (vv. 36,37). Two facts can be gathered here: 1) The day or the
hour of Christ's coming cannot be known by any man, and 2) His coming is
compared to the days of Noah. We don't have to guess what the days of Noah
were like, for the next verses say, the Lord speaking, "For as in the days
that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and
giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew
not until the flood came, and took them all away; SO SHALL THE COMING OF THE
SON OF MAN BE" (vv. 38,39).
"The coming of the Son of man" in verses 37 and 39 refers to the first
stage of the Second Advent, that is, Christ coming to rapture the Church to
heaven before the Tribulation begins, as promised in John 14:2,3.
A) Our Lord enumerated the signs that would precede His Second Coming,
including cataclysmic occurrences such as international conflicts, famines,
pestilences, and earthquakes. And He gave the specific sign of the
"abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet." When people
see these signs happening they should be sure the Second Coming is near, in
fact, only three and a half years away from the Abomination of Desolation.
"So likewise ye, when ye shall see these things, know that it is near, even
at the doors" (v. 33).
But Jesus also says, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as
ye think not the Son of man cometh" (v. 44). How can these His seemingly
contradictory statements be reconciled? Surely, Christ will not contradict
Himself! In one verse He says watch for signs of His coming; a few verses
later He warns us to be ready, for there is no specific sign of His coming.
We are therefore forced to conclude that our Savior must be talking about
two distinct and separate events. There must be two future Comings. The
first one requires no specific sign to watch before it occurs; the other
will be preceded by so many signs. In other words, first He comes to
rapture His Church. Then seven years later (refer back to the 70-Week
Prophecy) He comes to end the Great Tribulation (v. 22) and rescue the Jews
at Armageddon (Rev.19).
B) The Rapture cannot be postTribulational because just like in days of
Noah it will be "business as usual" in the world just before "the coming of
the Son of man" (v. 39) - "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in
marriage." That is hardly the situation during the Great Tribulation, when
hundreds of millions will die from wars, famines, etc. If we go by the book
of Revelation BILLIONS will have already died by the end of the Great
Tribulation; the days of Noah were not like that before he and his family
were taken into the ark. If Jesus is coming at a time similar to the days
of Noah when the world is relatively peaceful this coming must occur before
the Tribulation. Therefore, He is coming for the Church at that time - the
first phase of His "parousia."
C) The Second Coming in glory can be pinpointed to the day by believers
who will be alive during the Tribulation. How? By simply counting days
from the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and referring to Daniel
12:11,12. But the Coming discussed in Matthew 24:36-44 will be sudden and
unexpected. This "coming of the Son of man" cannot be the one that is
referred to in verse 30, where it is stated that all the tribes of the earth
will finally see the Son of man after a series of signs have happened.
D) "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other
left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and
the other left" (vv. 40,41). These verses immediately follow the Noachic
comparison. People are "taken" - raptured - before the time of global
cataclysm suddenly comes on the whole world. This is a preTribulation
taking-away of Christians to heaven (John 14:2,3).
Now concerning the gathering of "the elect" Matthew 24:30, 31 does not
substantiate a postTribulation Rapture of the Church, contrary to what many
believe. When the Second Coming occurs Jesus Christ comes down to earth
with His saints from heaven; the saints will have been in heaven for seven
years by that time (Zech. 14:5 ; Jude 14 ; Col. 3:4 ; 1 Thess. 3:13 ; 4:14 ;
Rev. 19:14). The Church, the Bride of the Lamb, is already in heaven when
the Lord returns to earth in glory (Rev. 19:7-9). Wherever the Husband goes
there goes His Wife.
Who, then, are the "elect" whom the angels will gather from the four
winds? Mark 13:27 makes it clearer; "And then shall he send his angels, and
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part
of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The Bible does not leave us
in the dark as to who God's "elect'' are. In Isaiah 45:4 God is quoted as
saying, "For Jacob my servant's sake and ISRAEL mine elect. . . ."
Therefore, it is the remnant of Israel in the last days who are the "elect"
that will be gathered from around the globe when Christ begins to establish
His Kingdom in the Millennium. It is thus prophesied by God in Isaiah, "And
I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my
mountains; and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell
there" (65:9). Ezekiel sheds more light: "As I live, saith the Lord GOD,
surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury
poured out, will I rule over you" (Ezek. 20:33). The language strongly
indicates that the fulfillment of this prophecy is shortly after the
Tribulation.
Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are enlarged upon by the following verses
from Ezekiel: "And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you
out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with
a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into
the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt,
so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass
under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I
will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against
me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they
shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the
LORD" (vv. 34-38).
The gathering of the elect at the Second Coming will also include the
resurrection of Old Testament saints, as strongly indicated in Daniel
12:1,2. The first resurrection and the translation of living Christians at
the Rapture will include only the Bride of Christ, that is, the Church.
Notice 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven.and the dead in Christ shall rise first." But the gathering of the
elect ISRAELITES, including the dead Old Testament saints, will happen at
the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation; they will be gathered
together "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven," the remnant from every corner of the earth, and
the dead Israelite saints from heaven where their spirits will be brought
from.
2. A RAPTURE LESSON FROM THE THESSALONIANS
The apostle Paul's letters to the Thessalonians were his earliest. He is
said to have spent only four weeks in Thessalonica on his second missionary
journey. Within one month he had taught a number of important doctrines to
the Thessalonians, including the Rapture. The Rapture is mentioned in every
chapter of the first letter (1 Thess. 1:10 ; 2:19,20 : 3:12,13 ; 4:13-18 ;
5:1-11). But our concern under this heading is the Rapture lesson contained
in Second Thessalonians.
It is unfortunate that many Christians today do not believe that Christ
will return for the Church before the Tribulation. In fact, many are not
anymore waiting for Christ's return; they say we are now in the Millennium,
that it may take thousands of years from now before the Judgment Day comes.
They are called amillennialists. I've heard of their "Kingdom Now" theology.
I just wonder how they can locate the Kingdom in this present evil world. I
guess Augustine of Hippo is the original culprit. As for the postTrib
premillennialists, however, it seems to me that they would rather have Jesus
return for them after the Tribulation. Are they too curious about
Tribulation events and therefore they want to see them with their own eyes?
Maybe they just don't see the light yet. What amazes me more is that some,
seeing the scriptural proofs for a preTribulation Rapture, still have a hard
time accepting it. A case of "doctrinal inertia," I suppose, if not a
display of unbelief. But I check myself - 1 Corinthians 4:5 says, ".judge
nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light
the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the
hearts.."
Choices of various beliefs regarding the Rapture were simply not available
during apostolic times. The early Church held only the preTribulation
Rapture preparatory to premillennial Second Coming, as taught by the apostle
Paul. Only in the fourth century did the churches begin to abandon the
belief when prophecy began to be interpreted allegorically, and
Amillennialism gained acceptance through the influential teachings of
Augustine.
The converts in Thessalonica believed in a preTrib Rapture. Second
Thessalonians was occasioned by their being "shaken in mind.troubled. that
the day of the Lord is now present" (2:2, correct translation). Paul wrote
in order to assure them that the rumor that the Day of the Lord had begun
was just that, a rumor. Chapter 2:1,2 presents the theme of the letter:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or
be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day of the Lord is now present." Probably a forged letter was
circulating, stating that they were now inside the Tribulation; and that the
persecutions they were experiencing at the hand of their enemies were part
of the fulfillment of the prophecies. But the persecutions and hardships
were not the cause of their being "shaken" and "troubled." They were
greatly agitated and disturbed because they thought they were LEFT BEHIND!
They knew that if they were now inside the Tribulation - the 70th Week - the
Rapture must have already occurred. And what were they doing on earth? They
were therefore very afraid - frightened - maybe they were left behind
because of some sin on their part, and now they were about to face the
Antichrist and endure the Tribulation.
Think about it. If Paul had taught the Thessalonians a postTrib Rapture
why would they be shaken in mind to find themselves in the Tribulation?
Instead of being troubled they would rejoice in the realisation that the
Rapture was now only seven years away; what they had to do now was to
prepare some civil defense and wait for the Second Coming. But that was not
the case. The Thessalonian converts were fearful because they were taught
by the apostle that before the Tribulation would begin the Rapture must come
first to deliver them "from the wrath to come" (1Thess. 1:10). But here
they were, supposedly caught in the middle of the Tribulation, and their
feet literally still on the ground; they had not been "caught up." That's
why they were confounded.
As hinted above, the confusion about the timing of the Rapture in the
Second Thessalonians has resulted from a mistranslation - "that the day of
Christ is at hand" (2:2). Paul would not caution them against the day of
Christ being at hand. Why, he believed so. He taught an imminent coming of
Christ for the Church (1 Cor. 15:51,52). He was saying in effect to the
faithful Thessalonians, "Don't you worry, don't believe the detractors, we
are not yet in the Tribulation Period. Didn't I tell you that the Rapture
must come first? At the Rapture we shall ALL be included. If all the
immature Corinthians will be raptured, you can be sure you will be. Some
things must first occur in the world before the day of the Lord can begin.
And you will not be present on earth to witness the full manifestation of
those things. As I taught you before, RAPTURE FIRST."
The apostle Paul was reassuring the brethren that the Rapture was still
future though imminent. Why, he himself was still there. He who was one of
the two apostles to whom the mystery of the Rapture was revealed (along with
John). The fact that Paul was not yet raptured was proof enough to the
Thessalonians that the "snatching away" had not yet occurred. But he went
on to unveil something more:
3. THE RESTRAINER TAKEN AWAY MEANS THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED
Second Thessalonians 2:3 : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
day" - the Day of the Lord, verse 2 - "shall not come, except there come a
falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
The apostasy in the churches was already underway even during Paul's time,
"for the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 8a). It was to
intensify until the whole world would have totally abandoned God's truth
(Matt. 24:11 ; 2 Tim. 4:3). Right now "the whole world lieth in wickedness"
(1 John 5:19), but just before the start of the Tribulation and about the
time of the Rapture the world and professing Christendom will have committed
the Great Apostasy, having "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:12b). Side by side with the Great Apostasy is
the rise of the Antichrist.
But the other event to occur before the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation
being the first short part of the Day of the Lord) is the RAPTURE ITSELF.
The Antichrist will not be revealed unless his Restrainer is finished with
the work of restraining. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth" - or restrains - "will let, until he be taken out
of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:7, 8a).
The restrainer of the Antichrist is the Holy Spirit. Nothing and nobody in
the world can do the job of restraining Satan, who is the force behind the
Antichrist. The Holy Spirit has been doing the work of a restrainer since
the days of the apostle Paul. Only an omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnipresent Being can do that. When the Holy Spirit, in His capacity as the
Restrainer, is "taken out of the way," then the Antichrist will be free to
reveal himself, for God will now allow it. Now, the "taking out of the way"
of the Restrainer from the world scene is the same as saying that the Church
is raptured - taken away from the earth - because the Holy Spirit works
primarily through the Church in controlling the outbreak of apostasy in the
professing Christendom and in the world.
When the Church is taken away, then the Great Apostasy will be complete
and the Antichrist will reign supreme over the whole world.
4. THE RAPTURE IS "THAT BLESSED HOPE"
". denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed
hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus
Christ" (Titus 2:12,13). It is assumed by many that this passage is
referring only to the glorious Second Coming. I've read the book, "The
Blessed Hope," written by postTribulationist George Ladd. He put forth
Titus 2:13 as a proof text for a postTrib Rapture. But the syntax
contradicts that position. Look at that. "Looking for that blessed
hope," - one event, that is, the Rapture, - "and the glorious appearing
of . Jesus Christ,' another event. They are two distinct events, separated
by seven years of Tribulation.
Why is the Rapture called the "blessed hope" of the Christian? The answer
is in 1 John 3:2,3, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we
shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath
this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." The first and
primary purpose of the Rapture is to change us completely. "For our
citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior,
the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be
conformed to His glorious body." (Phil. 3:20,21 New King James Version).
The Rapture is the time when the living and dead Christians are finally
given their spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:51-54). No wonder it is called the
Blessed Hope.
But there is a secondary reason why the Rapture is "that blessed hope."
5. THE RAPTURE DELIVERS US FROM THE TRIBULATION
The Rapture of the Church can hardly be called a "hope" - or at least its
being a hope is tarnished - if it comes after the Tribulation. Imagine it.
If the Rapture is postTrib, how can one be hopeful when he knows he is to
undergo the difficulties of the Tribulation? In all likelihood he may even
face martyrdom. The Antichrist will have open opportunity of killing the
saints, as revealed by Jesus, Daniel, John, and others. The Rapture is
somewhat "spoiled" if it is postTribulational. Happily, that is not the
case. God promises to deliver His children prior to the Tribulation by
transporting them to heaven. Consider the following:
A) ". to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even
Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1Thess. 1:10). "For God
hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
Christ" (5:9). The wrath to come is the Tribulation, exhaustively described
in Revelation 6 - 18. By the time the First Horseman rides (Rev.6:1) the
Church (Rev. 2 & 3) will have been transported to heaven (Rev. 4:1).
B) Christ to the Church: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which will come upon all
the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). This is a
promise from Jesus to the faithful in Philadelphia. We know that
Philadelphia is an end-time Church, the sixth of the seven Churches. The
Philadelphian Era of God's Church covers the period from about 1750 to
Rapture. God's promise is clear-cut - "I. will keep thee from the hour of
temptation," - or the time of trial - "which shall come upon all the world."
"The hour" refers to the short period of seven years when God's righteous
judgments will be poured out on sinning mankind. How can anyone mistake the
meaning of that scripture? God will deliver the Church from the
Tribulation. And the means is by transporting her to heaven: "Come up
hither." (4:1).
C) In 2 Peter 2:4-10 the apostle spoke of "judgment" on the world of the
ungodly during the days of Noah and Lot, wherein God saved the just from the
outpouring of judgment, for "the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out
of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be
punished" (v. 9). The conclusion that we can derive here is that God will
deliver His own - the godly - before He allows the global "day of
judgment" - the Tribulation - to begin, just as He did to Noah and Lot. We
are therefore assured that the Church will not go through the coming
Tribulation. God's promise will never fail. We are expected to believe
that; can we do otherwise?
However, some argue that if God will keep us from the troubles ahead it
would not be fair to the countless thousands who died from martyrdom
throughout the centuries, and they presume that there's no reason why we
should escape the same fate. Sort of a sado-macho thinking, not scriptural.
Who are we to question God? "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do
right?" (Gen. 18:25b) God is just, no question about that. We ought to
be thankful that we have the additional blessing of protection from the
Wrath to Come by divine "summons" to heaven at the Rapture.
6. THE DOCTRINE OF IMMINENCE
The noted Bible scholar William Barclay commented that the apostle Paul
was wrong when he proclaimed, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51,52). Barclay stated positively that Paul
made a mistake in believing that Christ could come in his day. "The wise
are not always right" - pointing to Barclay, not to the apostle. But, was
Paul wrong in believing that the Lord's coming for the Church was imminent?
Of course not. Christ could have come in the first century. Remember,
there was no specific sign given the Church to signal the approach of the
Rapture. Christ simply promised, "I will come again, and receive you unto
myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Time and again
the Lord warned the disciples to be ever ready, for He could come anytime
(Luke 12:34-40 ; 21:34-36 ; Mark 13:32-37 : Matt. 24:36-44).
Against the Doctrine of Imminence the argument is advanced that Christ
could not come unless world condition has deteriorated to the point when it
is possible for mankind to obliterate himself from off the face of the
earth, as prophesied by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:21, 22, and that that
time came only after almost two thousand years. I believe this argument
does not destroy imminency of Christ's coming for the Church. Remember the
Tower of Babel. God Himself does not underestimate man. "And the LORD
said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this
they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they
have imagined to do" (Gen. 11:6). As we have seen, only the Restrainer has
been hindering the Antichrist from becoming active on the world scene. Had
God decided to take away the Restrainer any time from apostolic times, world
condition could have come to where it is right now by the "genius" of man;
nothing could have hindered him from rapidly developing ways and means of
destroying himself within a seven-year period. Once the 70th Week had
begun, all the prophecies that pertain to the period must come to pass,
regardless of when within the last twenty centuries it began. Right now we
are exactly in that situation; therefore the Rapture is more imminent now
than ever.
This is a strong proof for the correctness of the "rapture theory." The
Doctrine of Imminence can only be applied to the preTrib Rapture, which will
happen unexpectedly like an operation of a thief in the night. A thief does
not give signs to his potential victims. The Rapture, being imminent,
requires no signs. It will come at an hour when people of the world -
including many Christians - least expect it. Imminency cannot refer to the
glorious Second Coming because this coming of Jesus Christ will be preceded
by specific signs for which He told His disciples to watch.
Of the two stages of the Second Advent only the first - the Rapture of the
Church - is imminent. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John talked imminence.
Therefore, the doctrine of an Imminent Rapture is true. Otherwise, Jesus
and His apostles were liars.
7. THE BOOK OF REVELATION PORTRAYS IT
Although I think that the foregoing logical, scriptural proofs of the
preTrib Rapture are unassailable enough, I offer here, last, the most
concrete evidence - the book of Revelation.
The book of Revelation is not as mysterious as is commonly supposed.
"Apocalupsis" is an unveiling. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1:1),
meaning, it is a book about the person of Jesus - His Deity - His testimony,
and about His Second Coming and the events thereafter. The future events
leading to the setting up of the Kingdom are set forth in the book in
explicit details.
Of all the books of the Bible only the Revelation has a special blessing
for its readers: "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words
of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the
time is at hand" (1:3). There, again, is imminency. The blessing is
reiterated near the end of the book, "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he
that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book" (22:7).
Revelation was written by the apostle John about the year AD 96. This
fact alone should dispose of the claims of preterists that the events
mentioned in the book up to chapter 19 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem
in AD 70. I follow the futuristic interpretation of the book, as well as
the literal. Literal interpretation allows for allegorical or symbolic
interpretation when the text and contexts dictate it. But otherwise we take
the primary, common-sense, ordinary, and literal meaning of the words used
by John, and the other biblical writers for that matter.
From the fourth century Augustine has dominated the theological thinking
of the churches. His teachings have continued to be the basis of the
amillennial approach to prophecy only because of the allegorical method of
interpretation. We cannot begin to realise the damage this has inflicted to
professing Christendom and to the world in general. (Anti-Semitism, for
example, can be traced to it.) Spiritualising the Revelation caused
uncounted souls to disbelieve in the coming millennial Kingdom of God. They
also spiritualised away God's judgmental warning in 22:18,19 - "For I
testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues
that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the
words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the
book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are
written in this book." Actually, I cannot conceive how anyone can interpret
that in any way except literally. Of course, the phrase "take away from the
words of the book of this prophecy" does not mean to literally print our own
copy of Revelation in which words have been edited out, or to cut off parts
of the last pages of our Bibles. The plain meaning of "take away" must be
disbelieving what the words are saying in plain language. For instance:
Amillennialists would say that the Millennium is mentioned only in
Revelation 20:1-7, therefore it is not true that there will be a Millennium.
That is taking away from the words of the book of Revelation. We had better
take warning. There is no doubt that the "God, that cannot lie" (Titus 1:2)
means what He says and says what He means. It is a fearful thing to
knowingly reject revelation.
If we will follow the flow of events described in Revelation we can see
clearly that the Rapture of the Church is preTribulational. The outline of
the book is presented in chapter 1 verse 19: "Write the things which thou
hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be
hereafter." Thus the book is divided into three parts - 1) the things which
thou hast seen, 2) the things which are, and 3) the things which shall be
hereafter. "Hereafter" is meta tauta in Greek. This is significant for
locating the timing of the Rapture in the book of Revelation. We'll see
later why. This little lesson in Greek I owe to Chuck Smith.
A) THE RAPTURE ENDS THE CHURCH AGE, USHERS IN
THE TRIBULATION HOUR
The term "Tribulation Hour" is taken from Revelation 3:10: "Because thou
hast kept the
word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Another lesson from Greek here is that the preposition "from" - "from the
hour of temptation" - is ek, which means out of. The Philadelphian
faithful, as well as all the faithful remnant from Thyatira down to
Laodicea, are promised escape out of the time of the Tribulation, not
through it. In other words, they will be evacuated from the earth just
before the Tribulation begins.
"The things which thou hast seen" refers to John's vision of
Christ (1:8-20). "The things which are" are the messages to the seven
Churches (chapters 2 and 3), which corresponds to the whole Church Age.
"And the things which shall be hereafter" refers to the Tribulation Hour and
thereafter (chapters 4 to 22).
Revelation 2 and 3 spans the Church Age from Pentecost to
Rapture. Revelation 4:1 is the point in the panorama of events when the
Church is raptured. Notice: "AFTER THIS." After what? Of course, after
the Church Age described in chapters 2 and 3. It's the same meta tauta in
1:19. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be
hereafter." Here is a double meta tauta, so that the readers of Revelation
will not mistake that from here on they will be reading of events future
from the Rapture, that is, "after these Church things."
In vision John is taken up to heaven. He is the representative
of the Church being raptured to heaven at the close of the Church Age and
prior to the start of the Tribulation. The language of Revelation 4:1 is
very much similar to the Rapture text of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. People
who contend that the Thessalonian scripture refers to Christ's Coming in
glory are simply mistaken. Notice that the event described is a meeting "in
the air." We do not right then and there descend on the Mount of Olives.
Instead we go up to heaven - "Come up hither," Christ says. We return to
earth with the Lord of Lords and King of kings seven years later (Rev. 19),
after the Tribulation Hour described in chapters 6 through 18 is finished
(The book was written chronologically, with some flashbacks or interludes,
or parentheses).
The command "come up hither," as can be seen in context, means
coming into heaven. We know that the Two Witnesses will be raptured to
heaven: "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up
hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld
them" (11:12). Likewise, the Church, when the time comes, will be commanded,
"Come up hither"! (4:1)
B) THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN WHILE ON EARTH TRIBULATION RAGES ON
Chapters 4 and 5 portrays to us what will happen when we get to
heaven at the Rapture. Don't we look forward to that? I understand that
some sincere and godly people are repulsed by the idea of going to heaven.
For so many years we have been bombarded by the unorthodox and
"iconoclastic" teaching, "Nobody will go to heaven!" What a tragedy; we
were virtually taught not to believe the Bible, because the Bible does teach
people can go to heaven. It was Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda
minister, who once said that when a lie is constantly repeated long enough
people will tend to believe it. Something similar has happened to our view
of heaven. Partly because of not taking the words of the Bible literally we
have been misled into believing that humans do not go to heaven. And,
perhaps, out of a desire to be different from apostate Christianity, we were
only too willing to believe that no one is going to heaven.
Let me cite right now just one scripture that proves humans,
indeed, go to heaven, right from within the Rapture Text: "For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in
Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM" (1 Thess. 4:14). Whether that means God will
bring the dead Christians with Jesus to heaven or from heaven is not
important just now. The point is, people do enter heaven because Jesus
ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
What's more, the Revelation pictures the Church in heaven
praising God after the Rapture in 4:1. John saw in vision the glory of God.
"And round about the throne were four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in
white raiment,; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (v. 4). I
believe these twenty-four elders are humans, not angels, for angels are
never crowned. The Judgment for rewards must have been finished at this
point in time because they have already been rewarded with crowns (cf. James
1:12 ; 1 Pet. 5:4). "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to
take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we
shall reign on the earth" (5:9,10). The redeemed, who are raptured to
heaven by this time, are looking forward to Christ's return to earth when
they, with Him, will begin to reign. How clear!
While the Church is in heaven worshipping God, down on earth the
Tribulation rages on. It is graphically described in chapters 6 to 18.
C) AFTER THE TRIBULATON CHRIST RETURNS WITH HIS CHURCH
"After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven,
saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory and honour, and power, unto the Lord
our God" (19:1). The Marriage of the Lamb with His Wife, the Church, is
made in heaven (vv. 7,8), but the wedding feast and honeymoon will be on
earth and will last a thousand years (ch. 20). But first the Bridegroom and
the Bride have to destroy their enemies: "And I saw heaven opened." Twice
in Revelation the door of heaven is opened. First, in 4:1, to receive the
Church at the Rapture. Second, to let Christ and His Church - now His
Wife - return to earth. ".and behold, a white horse; and he that sat upon
him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and
make war." (At the Rapture the Lord will not be riding a white horse, Acts
1:9-11.) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a
sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule
them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and
wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name
written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (19:11, 14-16). This is the
Second Coming of Jesus Christ in power and great glory. He comes with His
Wife the Church. No wonder Jude says, ".Behold, the Lord cometh with ten
thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all." (Jude 14,15).
After the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) the Millennial Reign
will begin. The
Lord will not be alone ruling the world, for "we shall reign on the earth"
(Rev. 5:10). "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17b).
D) MORE RAPTURE PROOFS FROM THE REVELATION
For those who can't see the Rapture in chapter 4 verse 1, I challenge them
to look for the
Church on earth during the Tribulation. Remember, the Tribulation period
corresponds to chapters 6 through 18. I know that postTribulationists will
be quick to point to the "woman" of Revelation 12. Let's look at that.
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"
(12:1).
Just because the great false religious system of the Tribulation is called
a "woman" and a
"whore" in Revelation 17 many are quick to conclude the woman in chapter
12 is the true Church. But they are mistaken. As we have already seen by
so many scriptural proofs the Church will not go through the Tribulation.
The obvious truth is that the woman in Revelation 12 is not the Church. She
is ISRAEL. Proof? In Genesis the patriarch Joseph dreamed the exact
"wonder" pictured in Revelation 12:1. "And he dreamed yet another dream,
and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more, and
behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me"
(37:9). This proves that the woman in Revelation 12 is the nation Israel.
"And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered" (Rev. 12:2), referring to the Messiah being born from Israel, "a
man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was
caught up unto God, and to his throne" (v.5), that is, Christ ascended to
heaven. The "Place of Safety" for this woman is referred to in verses 6 and
14; this is taken to mean by postTribulationists that the Church is on earth
during the Tribulation. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she
hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two
hundred and threescore days.And to the woman were given two wings of a great
eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is
nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the
serpent."
It is indisputable that a remnant of Israel will be protected
from the wrath of Satan for a period of three and a half years. The
question is, are these believing remnant literal descendants of the Jews or
the Church? The answer is given by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 24.
Speaking of the beginning of the Great Tribulation, His instruction is for
the JEWS: "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him
which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And
woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But PRAY YE THAT YOUR FLIGHT BE NOT IN THE WINTER, NEITHER ON THE SABBATH
DAY" (vv. 16-20). This is the same flight spoken of in Revelation 12:14.
It is the Jews, not the Church, who are to flee to the mountains where there
is a special place prepared for them (probably Petra). Notice that Christ
is concerned about their flight happening on a Sabbath day. The Jews keep
the Sabbath law; the Church does not. While the believing remnant of Israel
are in their place of refuge (Isaiah 26:20), the Church is up in heaven
preparing for her return to earth to rule with Christ a thousand years.
Can we find the Church on earth during the seven-year
Tribulation? If so, we ought to find her mentioned in Revelation 6 through
18. I tried but I didn't find her in those thirteen chapters.
In Revelation 1 to 3 "church" and "churches" are mentioned
nineteen times. The Church is mentioned again only in 22:16, and that only
in retrospect. In Revelation 19 the Church, being in heaven, is called the
Bride and Wife of the Lamb. (The Church is never called a "woman" in the
Bible; another point concerning Revelation 12.)
In the letters to the seven Churches there is the formula, "He
that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches," to
admonish the leaders and members of the Church. But in chapter 13 the
admonition-formula is "edited" to conform to the new subject and new
situation - "If any man have an ear, let him hear" (v.9). The Church is no
more, and the Spirit is gone with her. The Tribulation saints - Jews and
Gentiles alike - are being addressed here. Notice the gloomy warning: "He
that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: and he that killeth
with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and
faith of the saints" (v.10). The Tribulation saints are advised to endure
with patience and faith. It's far better to be a believer now and be
raptured to heaven when the time comes than to believe later and endure the
Tribulation. At that time, the evaluation of a voice in heaven will be, "
Therefore, rejoice, ye heavens, and YE THAT DWELL IN THEM" - the Church,
because God spared her the Tribulation - but "Woe to the inhabiters of the
earth and of the sea!" - those left behind - "for the devil is come down
unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short
time" (12:12). Where would you rather be at that time?
One more scriptural proof that the Church will not be present on
earth during the Tribulation is in Revelation 7. "After this" - after John
has seen the 144,000 Jewish servants of God sealed - "I beheld, and, lo, a
great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds,
and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud
voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto
the Lamb" (vv.9,10). These are new arrivals in heaven. John does not know
who they are. One of the elders in heaven asks him, "What are these which
are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?" (v.13). Notice John's
answer: "Sir, thou knowest" (v.14a). If these people were part of the
Church John would know. The elder goes on to enlighten John, "These are
they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and
made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (v.14b). These people are
Tribulation converts. They will pay the price of martyrdom for their
belated faith. I can imagine that they will include people who will believe
because of the witness of Church members who used to "pester" them with the
gospel or with the "rapture theory." For them, "to see is to believe" will
be amended to to see not is to believe. In other words, when their
Christian relatives, regular acquaintances, and friends - and enemies, for
that matter - are gone, nowhere to be found on earth, then they will
believe. "Those people, after all, told the truth," they will finally
realise.
Salvation will still be available during the Tribulation. Only
it will be a terrible time for believers. I'd rather be a believer NOW.
IS IT IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE?
Now that we have seen that the Rapture will occur immediately before the
Tribulation, does it make any difference? In this regard I have received
some not-so-positive responses from people with whom I have tried to share
this "discovery." One commented that to know when the Rapture will occur in
relation to the Tribulation is not important at all. Whether it is preTrib
or postTrib, he said it should not make any difference; what's important is
"to do the work" (in a sense, that is true). A friend said that trying to
know where in the chronology of endtime events the Rapture will happen is
"merely an intellectual exercise." "It is not of urgent importance,"
insisted a local church elder. They have their reasons for such indifferent
responses to the Rapture question, but one thing I can infer from their
comments: they do not believe that Christ may come any moment now; if they
did they would not say those words.
How is it, then? Is it important to know the timing of the Rapture? Does
it make any difference in a Christian's life to know that the Rapture is
preTribulational and imminent?
First of all, we Christians are expected to be interested in the Lord's
Second Coming. One who is not is suspect. "If ye then be risen with
Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right
hand of God, Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth"
(Col. 3:1,2). We have the original disciples for an example, who were very
much interested to know the timing of the Second Coming, when they asked the
Lord, "Tell us, when shall these things be...?" (Matt. 24:3).
The establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth is a foundational
doctrine of the Bible. If we are obeying the injunction to pray "Thy
Kingdom come," out of a sincere heart, then we will be interested to know
all things that have to do with that Kingdom, so far as God reveals them,
including the Biblical teaching as to when the Rapture will occur in the
series of prophesied events.
Not of urgent importance? Christ's loving warning has a sense of urgency
(Matt. 24:36-44 ; Mark 13:32-37 ; Luke 12:34-40 ;21:34-36). It is very
important to know and understand that we should be eagerly looking for Him
to take us to Himself (1 Cor. 1:7). If we are so careless as to believe
that that the Lord will come for us at the end of the Tribulation, then,
truly, there is no sense of urgency in us, because we "know" Jesus will not
come for at least seven more years ahead of us. That is the doctrine of "My
lord delayeth his coming" (Matt. 24:48), which would put us in danger of
carelessness in regard to preparing for the Lord's unexpected coming. On
the other hand, when one knows that the Lord may come this very day (the
doctrine of imminence), he makes sure he is ready for it anytime, "for every
man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1
John 3:3). The realisation that Christ may come at any moment is the
greatest motivating factor for any Christian to live a holy life. It is
interesting to note that a "crown of righteousness" is reserved for those
who love the doctrine of the Rapture (2 Tim. 4:8).
HOW CLOSE ARE WE?
There have been many a "Disappointment" since the day of William Miller.
Are we in a different situation now? Are we really approaching the close of
the age? Remember, the disciples asked Jesus the question "WHEN?" And the
Lord answered. He gave signs pointing to His Second Coming in glory. And
we know the Rapture will come seven years earlier.
There was one incident recorded in the gospels when the Jews were asking
for a sign from heaven. The Lord said to them, "When it is evening, ye say,
It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be
foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye
can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the
times?" (Matt. 16:2,3) Those religious leaders could not discern the signs
of the times because they refused to believe Jesus and the scriptures.
Today, we, in like manner, are confronted with a similar situation. Will we
also close our eyes to the truth? Do we not see that the stage has been set
for the endtime prophecies to be fulfilled? Granted, we cannot know for
sure exactly when the 70th Week - the Tribulation - will begin. But we are
promised that we can know the general time. Notice, "Surely the Lord GOD
will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the
prophets" (Amos 3:7). When God is about to do something with regard to
Israel He sends prophets to warn the people. At this stage, no prophet is
on the scene (there will be once the Tribulation starts), so we have to go
to the writings of the prophets.
Daniel the prophet gives unmistakable signs to signal that the 70th Week
is very near. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall
be increased" (12:4). This prophecy, given through the angel Gabriel, began
to be fulfilled with the invention of the combustion engine. The airplane
is only a hundred years old. Today we take for granted the ease and speed
with which we travel and communicate; we forget that people transported
themselves "by horse and buggy," so to speak, for about 5,900 years (if we
reckon that Adam and Eve were created 4000 BC). Fast travel and knowledge
explosion, according to the book of Daniel, are a definite sign that God is
about to complete the fulfillment of the 70-Week Prophecy.
But the greatest Prophet of all - the Lord Jesus Christ - gives another
sign which is nothing less miraculous. It is the sign of the modern nation
of ISRAEL. "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet
tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh ; So likewise
ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the
doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:32-34). The fig tree is a symbol of
Israel (Hosea 9:10). The parable therefore seems to reveal that when Israel
is back on her original land - and she must be if the prophecies are to be
fulfilled (Isaiah 66:8) - then the generation which saw the rebirth of the
nation (1948) will not pass till the Messiah returns. At any rate, the fact
that Israel is back in the Middle East is a sure sign that the prophecies
concerning the Kingdom as well as God's judgment on the nations can now be
fulfilled.
Moreover, in the book of Luke, the Lord gave a statement the meaning of
which is to me as clear as the day: "...upon the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring... And when these things
begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh" (Luke 21:25b, 28). The December 26, 2004 tsunami
is a clear sign of the nearness of "redemption." Redemption for the
Israelites when they will at last recognise their Messiah, and they will be
delivered (Jer. 30:7 ; Dan. 12:1); and redemption for us Christians when we
will be raptured to heaven (Rev. 4:1 ; 1 Thess. 4:15-17 ; Rev. 5:8-10 ; Rom.
8:23). I'm reminded of an old song which has the line, "We're almost there"!
That's how close we are to the Rapture and to the Glorious Second Coming of
Jesus Christ.
Our Lord says, "I am... the bright and morning star" (Rev. 22:16b).
Although the world is about to enter its darkest hour - "the hour of trial"
(Rev. 3:10) - we look eagerly to the breaking of the "light that shineth in
a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise..." (2 Pet. 1:19b).
The Rapture is the event when the dawn's bright "morning star" - our
Redeemer - will appear in the sky to take us to Himself (John 14:3) when it
is still dark in the world (the seven-year Tribulation) before sunrise.
Then the Sun of Righteousness (Mal. 4:2) - the "DAY STAR" - shall arise at
His Glorious Second Coming.
It is said that the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. Literally, yes.
But the revelation of the doctrine is in there. This article, though, is
not intended to be exhaustive.
IT'S TIME TO REPLACE REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY
Before I close, I would like to say a few words on Replacement Theology.
I understand it to mean that because the Jews rejected Christ, God's
promises to them have all been abrogated and transferred to the Church.
Hence, whenever the word "Israel" is mentioned in the Bible, having to do
with God's promises, we have only to change it to "Church" to get the
"correct" meaning; and "Jerusalem" is taken to mean "heaven." I've heard
that about 3,600 times in the Bible this "magic" is advanced. This gross
mishandling of the Word of God is a big reason why so many are not able to
see the truth of the Rapture of the Church.
If we understand that God's program for Israel is distinct from
His program for the Church, then it would be clear to us that the Church
will have to be raptured before the 70-Week prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 can
be continued to its conclusion. The Church will have to be evacuated from
the earth so that God's prophecies for Israel will be fulfilled during the
last seven years, the "time of Jacob's trouble".
When the Bible says "Israel" it means Israel, not the Church.
Old Testament prophets did not know about the coming of the Church.
Although they had some hint of a timespan we call the Church Age, as in
Psalm 110:1, the Church itself was a mystery - "hid" in God (Col. 1:26) - to
them.
To say that the Church Age is the GREAT PARENTHESIS in the plan
of God for Israel is not to minimise the importance of the Church. It is
all explained in Romans 9, 10, 11. On the other hand, Replacement Theology
does away with God's promises to Israel, which is a wrong interpretation of
the message of the Bible. The plain truth is, the Church is the Bride of
Christ and Israel will surely receive all the promises made to them, from
the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant down to Davidic Covenant and the
"Marian Covenant." Let's look at the last one: "Fear not, Mary: for thou
hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb,
and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great,
and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto
him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of
Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:30-33).
It is beyond the scope of this article to discuss the Kingdom of
God. I am only making this last point to underscore the fact that the
prophecies for the endtime will be fulfilled literally, just as the
prophecies concerning Christ's first coming were fulfilled literally. Only
by taking the prophecies of the Bible literally will we understand that
Christ's Second Coming will be in two stages - first, the imminent Rapture
of the Church, afterwards the Glorious Revelation seven years later. I hope
the above seven proofs thereof are complete enough for anyone who heretofore
has entertained some honest doubts.
For readers who have not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord
and Saviour, the following scripture references are listed for them to read,
study and take to heart. Salvation is not a complicated matter.
1. Romans 3:23
2. Romans 6:23
3. Romans 5:8-10
4. Acts 3:19
5. Ephesians 2:8
6. Romans 10:9,10,13
7. Acts 2:38
SEE YOU AT THE RAPTURE!!! (Take that literally.)
The 5th Horseman
THE TRIBULATION
THE TRIBULATION DESCRIBED
winds? Mark 13:27 makes it clearer; "And then shall he send his angels, and
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:05vri15egmuedbiko...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 03:02:13 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
>> <Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Not possible. Christians reject the teachings of Jesus in favor of
>> man-made theologies.
>
>As usual, you have it backwards: It was the man-made theologies of the Jews
>that prompted God to send Jesus to straigten out the situation.
And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees. He could not
even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
with His theology.
Yet Christians go about rejecting the Commandmants for no biblicl
reson at all. Paul even identified this Christian theology with the
Anti-Christ in Second Thessalonians, but the Christians, like you,
Ike, follow the man-made theology, Antinomianism instead of following
Jesus.
>
>>>And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're fulfilled
>>>in
>>>Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our
>>>sins
>>>in no way "disavows" the commandments.
>>
>> You are not making sense.
>
>To a Jew still trying to live under the burden of the law, no I wouldn't.
You don't make any sence because you claim that you believe that jesus
was the Messiah, but you reject His teaching and hate his people. You
disagree with me so you try to use "Jew" as an insult. Jesus IS a
Jew, so I do not feel insulted. You try to use "Pharisee" as an
insult, but Jesus IS a Pharisee, so I am not insulted. However your
attempts to use personal attacks rather than backing up you claims
with scripture demonstrates that you doubt your proclaimed theology.
You choice of words to use as insults indicates racism against Jesus
Himself. I would not consider this following Jesus at all.
>
>> If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
>> true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
>> obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
>> intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
>
>Jesus fulfilled the law that man could never keep, and, in its place,
>established salvation by grace.
God said that man COULD keep the Commandments. In Deiteronomy
30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants. the
Bible says that Enoch, Abraham, Zachariah, and Elishivah all kept the
Commandments. The Bible says that the truth is known on the account
of two or more witnesses. The Bible gives us two times two witnesses:
two from the Old Testament and two from the Gospel.
Furthermore, the LAW states that salvation is through grace, in Exodus
20:6. Of course, you cannot have garce unless the Law is in full
effect. So grace and the law work together to bring us closer to God.
>Immediately the Pharisees that infiltrated
>the early church set about the work of perverting Jesus' Good News, laying
>the yoke of law back on man's shoulders despite God's grace.
Jesus IS a Pharisee, so you are not making sense.
Historically speaking the deviation away from God's Law occured
gradually begining in the Later Second Century CE.
>
>> Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>
>Jesus has two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor.
No Jesus said that our obedience to all 613 Commandmants depends on
those two motivations.
>
>The rest are fulfilled in Him (but woe to those who teach that grace is
>license).
that is nonsencical and double talk.
Fulfilled = filled to fullness = complete.
Now correct motivations are required as well as correct actions.
You say that the law is abolished, then you pronounce woe to those who
disobey the Law. That is hypocritical nonsence.
>
>[sip]
>
>>>Jesus uses the dual symbolisms in the same way he uses "Balaam and Barak"
>>>and "Jezebel" in the Seven Letters.
>>>
>>>"Balaaam and Barak" represents the masculine problem of putting
>>>righteousnes
>>>before Grace.
>>
>> LOL
>> Obviouly to anyone who has read the Bible, you cannot have Grace
>> without the Law, therefore Righteousness and grace are intertwined and
>> inseprable.
>
>Grace was necessary because of the law, which no man (save Jesus) could
>keep.
Wrong. The Bible specifically gives us three men other than Jesus and
one woman who all obeyed the Law. If you bothered to read the Bible,
you would know that salvation by grace is not "Plan-B." Obedience to
all of the Law, perfectly in thought word and deed, does not "earn"
you salvation. God did not promise that anyone could get into Heaven
for obeying the commandmants perfectly.
You are teaching that legalism was god's desire but he will settle for
grace. That is wrong on both counts. he expects us to love Him
enough to obey without thinking of reward and gives us salvation
despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Perfect obedience to all
Commandmants is the bare minimum level of righteousness that entitles
you to live on the Earth. Salvation is way beyong that!
>
>>>"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is
>>>license.
>>>(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe regard.)
>>
>> So, Jezebel, in your opinion symbolized Christianity?
>
>"Jezebel," "Balaam and Barak," and the "Nicolaitans" represent divisive
>factions that would (and have) risen within the churches.
>
>"Jezebel" represents the difilement of believers via the seduction of
>spiritual whoredom.
>"Balaam and Barak" represent the difilement of believers via the deception
>of false ritual and ordinance.
>The "Nicolaitans" represent the difilement of believers via the perversion
>of judgment.
Your description of Jezabel describes all Christianity.
The other are more specific, though all branches of Christianity
follow Pagan rituals and holidays that are forbidden in the Bible.
These evil customs of Christianity could not exist without the
leadership judging them falsely and allowing paganism in the churches.
>
>>>It's all part of the symetry of prophecy.
>>>
>>>Which brings us right back to those 140,000 Judeo-Christians who don't
>>>have
>>>the feminine problem (playing the whore) or the masculine problem (playing
>>>the ogre).
>>
>> So they are not christian at all, basically Orthodox Jews who accept
>> Jesus as Messiah! Yes, that fits!
>
>Orthodox Judaism is dead. It died when Jesus said "Amen" to the destruction
>of the temple.
Ike, your swastika is showing, again.
Orthodox Judiasm was founded after the destruction of the Temple, and
agrees with the lifestyle that Jesus taught. the Orthodox Jews who
reject Jesus' identity as Messiah obey his teachings because they are
biblical, and the Christians who proclaim jesus' identity as Messiah
reject His teachings because they are biblical(Jewish). Most
interestingly, the Jews Celebrate Chanukkah, but it is only mentioned
in the New Testamant when Jesus celebrated it and is not mentioned in
the Old Testament at all.
It is ironic, but you can see God's hand. The Orthodox Jews have one
half of the puzzle, and the Christians have the other, but you need
BOTH to see the picture.
>
>>>>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
>>>
>>>Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc. etc.
>>>etc.
>
>The 144,000 come from the lineage of the Jews, but believe in the Gospel of
>Jesus Christ, without the perversions of the Pharisees, Saducees, and
>Herodians.
>
>> No, they never met a christian. Christianity did not begin spliting
>> off from Jesus' faith until the end of the second Century CE.
>
>Christianity IS Jesus' faith.
He never wnt to church, celebrated Christmas, easter, communion,
sunday, permitted us to pray to Him or worship Him; He forbid all
this. Sorry, Jesus opposes Christianity. The theologies that
separate Christianity from Judaism developed over time begining in the
Late Second Century CE.
>
>>>> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
>>>> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
>>>> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
>>>> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>>>
>>>Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
>>
>> Since Jesus IS a Pharisee, you compliment me greatly!
>
>Your delusions know no bounds: Jesus was not a party to any of the
>perversities of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin.
What perversions?
You are just making things up!
It was the Sanhedrin that ruled that Jews who accepted Jesus as
Messiah should NOT be persecuted because He might BE the Messiah.
This is recorded in Acts 5:34-39. Note that the speaker, Rabban
Gamliel the Elder, was the leader of Beyt Hillel at the time, and Beyt
hillel was the majority faction of the Pharisees.
Yes, the Saducees were corrupt by the time of Jesus, but the Pharisees
were a collection of severl groups with two unifying theologies, both
of which were opposed by the Saducees.
A Pharisee was a Jew who believed that there was an afterlife and that
each person must take responcibility for his own righteousness. This
is exactly what Jesus taught. there were several groups of Pharisees
and Jesus DID oppose some of the teachings of Beyt Shammai, but he
agreed with Beyt Hillel, the majority group of Pharisees.
>
>[snip]
>
>>>Nonsense, but one would expect that from a Pharisee living in the image of
>>>those who tried to corrupt the Gospel in the first century, too.
>>
>> So, Ike, since you cannot support your theology logically, you make
>> personal attacks. I guess that shows what kind of person you are.
>
>You wear your defilements of the Gospel like a badge of honor, and anyone
>who knows the teachings of Jesus Christ can plainly see it.
>
>[snip]
>
>> Yes, a book that adds your personal fantasies to the book of
>> Revelations, and the author of Revelation promises that anyone who
>> adds to the book will have added to him all the plagues described in
>> the book of Revelation. Maybe, for your own sake, you should re-think
>> your plan.
>
>I already have the plagues. I have all my life. And there are more yet to
>come. Bring them all on. It still doesn't change the fact that what I am
>saying is the truth, plagues be damned.
So, no matter how god tries to speak to you and urge you not to commit
evil actions you will do them anyways? That is selfdestructive.
>
>(Funny thing about the Bible: One has to know when to keep the letter of the
>rules, and when to break the letter of the rules, as did Jesus.)
Jesus NEVER broke the letter of the Law.
Why would you accuse Jesus of evil actions?
Do you think that this blasphemy justifies your choices?
Jesus disregarded man-made additions to the Letter of the Law, but
obeyed all of the Letter of the Law, and Demonstrated the Spirit of
the Law.
>
>>>That won't exactly fit here.
>>>
>>>For now, we'll go through the simple list of the six initial sins of the
>>>churches (with two more to come in the End of the Age).
>>>
>>>Ephesus = the sin of legalism (a.k.a. Pharisee-like fundamentalists who
>>>put
>>>law before grace) = 1st century.
>>
>> That is NOT Pharisaic theology. You should not use a word when you
>> are obviously ignorant of its meaning. Jesus Himself is a Pharisee,
>> and you used His beliefs as an insult. Very Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jesus)
>> of you!
>
>1) It IS Pharisaic theology.
No, you just immagine that it might be Pharisaic theology.
>It's what Paul had to fight against when the
>infiltrators of Judaism started preaching this and that law, and
>circumcising Gentiles, teaching them to put behind their first love and
>readopt the ordinances, sitting in council against one another. Fortunately,
>Paul and the gang clarified the situation and put a stop to the problem at
>the council of Jerusalem. [Acts 15:27-29]
The Ruling of the Beyt Din Yhudim Meshiachi, in Acts 15, is found in
verses 19-21
"Dio egô krinô mê parenochlein tois apo tôn ethnôn epistrephousin epi
ton theon, alla episteilai autois tou apechesthai apo tôn alisgêmatôn
tôn eidôlôn kai tês porneias kai tou pniktou kai tou aimatos, môusês
môsês gar ek geneôn archaiôn kata polin tous kêrussontas auton echei
en tais sunagôgais kata pan sabbaton anaginôskomenos."
("Because of this, I give judgement: not to trouble those from the
Gentiles converting to God, but to write to them to abstain from
defilement of idols, from sexual sin, from starangled [animals], and
from blood, because Moses has from ancient generations had those
proclaiming his [Prophecy/Torah], being read in the synagogues every
Sabbath.")
So the new believers learned the Commandments in their synagogues at
their own pace without being treatened with damnation. Yes, you left
out the context and the actual question. The discussion was not about
whether or not to obey God's Commandmants; it was about whether or
not somone who did not know the Law yet could still be saved. The
Sanhedrin had theorized that a Goy became a Ger, and thus saved, after
demonstrating that he knew all 613 Commandmants, could read and write
Hebrew, and knew the techniques for obeying the Commandments. They
were working without all the facts, so their mistake is
understandable, but wrong in ligt of what Jesus taught. From Jesus'
teachings we know that the intention to learn and obey the Law is
sufficient to become a Ger.
>
> "We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the
>same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to
>lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain
>from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and
>from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare
>ye well."
>
>This is the whole end of the matter of the law where Christians are
>concerned. God deals with the rest as He goes.
And yet you skipped those parts of the biblical text that disprove
your theory. Ike you have failed to prove your idea.
>
>2) Jesus was in no way a party to the Pharisees, Saducees, or Sanhedrin.
>These things He prophecies against, and these things He destroyed.
That is not true. Jesus taught the defining theologies of Pharisaic
Judaism and even quoted Rabbi Hillel's "Golden Rule." Many of Jesus'
teachings were settleing disputes between Beyt Hillel and Beyt
Shammai. So he took a very active interest in setting Pharisaic
Judaism on a unified and correct track. This goal was accomplished
though the Holy Spirit guiding the formation of Orthodox Judaism to
agree with Beyt Hillel and Jesus.
>
>3) I am very pro-Semitic, pro-Jesus, and pro-Old Testament, but I am
>anti-abomination, which means anti-Pharisee, anti-Saducee, and
>anti-Herodian, especially when these characters come insidiously creeping in
>the back door to pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Obviously you do not know what a Herodian was. Herodians were
Israelite who abandoned Judaism to support the paganism and political
power of Herod. They were a political group and not even Jewish. In
many respects they are analagous to those nominal Christians who
abandoned the Law of God to make Christianity more popular to the
pagans.
>> In Pharisaic Judaism, grace was more important than the Law.
>> Christians frequently miss this concept because God was a lot more
>> important to the Pharisees that He is to Christians.
>
>LOL. Christians didn't "miss" the concept. It was never there to begin with.
Your Swastika is showing again.
You make false assumptions and bear false witness due to your
anti-Semitism. I saw the filth on your website. You even promote
Replacement Theology.
>
>>>Smyrna = the dangers of disloyalty to the Gospel in persecution = 2nd and
>>>3rd century.
>>>Pergamos = the reliance on high ceremony and ritual = The council of Nicea
>>>to the reformation.
>>
>> So you say that this would be Catholics and Greek Orthodox...
>> Your identification of these denominations with Pergamos is purely
>> theoretical. I am not saying that you are wrong here, but Catholicism
>> is also the Whore of Babylon, so I would like to see how you harmonize
>> these theories.
>
>The Whore of Babylon hasn't reared her ugly head yet. But she peeks out once
>in awhile to see if it is safe to come out.
I am not sure that you are correct here.
My personal opinion is that we need to keep an open mind since the
prophecies will be fulfilled in a way that takes all humanity by
surprise just as happened about 2000 years ago.
Still "whore" = dolatry for money and/or power.
The Catholic church has cretainly done that!
It has even adopted Babylonian paganism to replace the Biblical Holy
Days and uses Babylonian theologies such as the supposed "perpetual
virginity" of Mary.
Chapter 18 refers to other caught up in her abominations.
The Protestants are certainly more catholic than biblical.
So, you might say that Pergamos represents some of the ignorant common
people within the Catholic/Greek churches, while the Whore is the
institution???
>
>Do Catholicism and Orthodoxy have problems. Absolutely! The ones laid out in
>the letter to Pergamos.
>
>Then again, all the other churches problems are laid out in the other
>letters, so to single out Catholicism and Orthodoxy for judgment before its
>time is the evil of the accuser.
And yet we are told to be discerning and Catholicism is just
dressed-up Babylonian Mithra worship. and Greek Orthodox is just its
mirror image (they do their "cross" in the opposite direction.
>
>Take out the good half from the combination of all seven churches by
>accusation, persecution, discrimination, and defilement, and what you have
>left is the Whore of Babylon. We're not there yet, so you bring judgment
>against yourself with your judgement.
So since the organization already exists, I am correct, but you feel
the need to bear false witness because you wrote some falsehood in you
book.
To clarify: I am refering to institutions and theologies, NOT PEOPLE.
We can certinly judge and condemn false theologies and corrupt
institutions. Since you have done the same, it would be hypocritical
for you to accuse me of anything here.
>
>Then again, Pharisees are all about judgment, aren't they?
Mostly about Grace, but you are too consumed with hatred to see that.
>
>>>Thyatira = licentiousness = reformation era.
>>
>> Again a theory. This would include the non-Charismatic denominations
>> of Protestantism.
>
>Don't make the mistake of thinking purely chronologically: Certain
>fundamentalist churches may have come after the others, but they are still
>Ephesians.
no you are attempting to draw from your own fiction here, so your
words make no sense.
Remember: I am refering to institutions and theologies, NOT PEOPLE.
We can certinly judge and condemn false theologies and corrupt
institutions.
>
>>>Sardeis = the immature churches = modernism (about 1800 to present).
>>
>> Again a theory. This would be the Charismatic Protestants.
>
>Too limiting a distinction.
OK, but their sin of idolatry by worshiping miracles instead of God is
due to the excitement of youth.
>
>Jesus starts the letter with the credentials that He hold the seven stars in
>His right hand, so the problems are across the spectrum of the seven
>Spirits, i.e.:
>
>-Seeking glory in the political arena.
>-Seeking honor in the courts.
>-Claiming power from God they don't have.
>-Claiming wisdom they haven't earned by disciplined practice and procedure.
>-Prosperity preaching.
>-Seeking the false blessings of noteriety, i.e. sensationalism, especially
>in the media.
>-Using bullying tactics to impose their will on the unbelievers.
>-Claiming all these things are done in the name of God when they are doing
>it in their own name.
That is your THEORY.
You could be correct, but your interpretation does not follow the
symbolism used in the Prophets. Since the Bible says that God set the
sun moon and stars as signs, it could simply mean that he is using
these seven to be examples to all future denominations and religions
that claim to follow Him.
>
>>>Laodiceans = the marginalists = the Jesus Seminarians, Universalists, etc.
>>>just coming to the fore.
>>
>> Again a theory. Mormons, JWs and nominal Christians.
>
>Not a theory: Laodicea addresses the cold, dead faith of the latter-day
>intellectuals who attack the authenticity and authority of the Word, the
>reality and divinity of Jesus Christ, etc. etc.
It is a theory, because the text does not say what you say.
It could also mean that they are like the Calvinists (aka "Frozen
Chosen").
>
>Your statement is just a "theory," without reference to the symbolisms in
>the text.
Actually, I was commenting on YOUR theory, not opposing it, but
clarifying it - putting names to YOUR descrioptions. But, it is still
a theory.
>
>[snip]
>
>>>> In fact, this
>>>> community of believers was warned that they lost their original
>>>> zealous love for God and have stopped doing what they used to do.
>>>> Since Paul wrote in Ephesians that the gentiles there were no longer
>>>> Gentiles, but converts to Judaism, it is more likely that they stopped
>>>> doing the Law as diligently as they had previously.
>>>
>>>Ah, no, you just turned the facts around 180 degrees out of phase, exactly
>>>as expected.
>>
>> No, Ike. YOU seem to be mistaken. You are reading Revelation with
>> your own personal prejudices and completely ignoring the Book of
>> Ephesians.
>
>You make your assumptions in your own personal extinct Jewish frame of
>reference and ingnore the entire New Testament.
You really do seem to hate Jews. Jesus is a Jew, a Pharisee even and
you attempt to use these words as insults. By doing so you prove
yourself to be even more prejudiced than I had expected.
>
>>>Paul rebuked the Ephesians for putting on the law again and leaving behind
>>>the Gospel of Grace.
>>
>> No he did not.
>> In Ephesians 4:17, he said that they were longer
>> Goyim/Ethnos/Pagans/Gentiles. He continued to describe the ways of
>> the Gentiles with great disdain and revulsion.
>
>Christians are "Israel," but they are not "Jews," at least not Jews that in
>any way has to do with the Pharisees, Saducees, and Herodians, i.e. the
>traditional (and dead) Judaism you espouse.
Ike, Christians are NOT Israel. They are defined by their refusal to
graft into the Olive Tree. Jesus the Pharisee was a prime exmple of
the majority opinions of Pharisaic Judaism. Granted, He wrote off the
Saducees, but they had already written off the idea of a Messiah
saving souls, so there is symatry there. Herodians were not even
Jews; they were Karet (cut off from Israel for committing idolatry)
and a political group. I espouse the Judaism taught by Jesus in the
Gospels.
>
>>>Moreover, Paul rebuked Peter for doing exactly what you said-circumcising
>>>Gentiles--when circumcision of the flesh is now irrelavent to Jew and
>>>Gentile alike.
>>
>> Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
>> the Law.
>
>Paul rebuked Peter for circumcising Gentiles, plain and simple, and for
>taking on the Pharisees seperatist attitudes.
That is NOT in the Bible.
I notice that you snipped out the explanation that I gave you before
you told that lie. Here it is again. If you think that you can use
the Bible to dispute it give me some quotes. Otherwise don't tell
such obvious lies.
Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
the Law. Peter followed a man-made stricture against eating with
Gntiles, even converts, because Gentiles were unclean. The Bible does
say that Toshavim (people who have not accepted the covenant
(including all of the Law)) are unclean, but the NT specifies that it
is at the point where they dedicate themselves to learning and obeying
the Commandmants that they become Gerim (Converts to Judaism). There
is no prohibition against eating with the Toshavim, they simply cannot
partake of the Passover either the physical animal Offering or that of
Jesus. The Bible does require Jews to treat gerim with respect.
Since the people in Peter's synagogue had made the commitment to serve
God, Peter was not only allowed to eat with them, he was required to
show them this respect. Paul, while serving Messiah converted
literally thousands of Gentiles to Judaism.
Circumcision of the flesh is a Commandment of God's. It is only
irrelivant if the person then acts as if he is not part of the
Covenant, just like Paul wote.
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you) because
>>>>>of
>>>>>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
>>>>
>>>> Christians of many denominations.
>>>
>>>The pot calling the kettle black, Ephesian.
>>
>> I have never been to that city.
>
>You ARE that city.
>
>[snip]
>
>> Ike, you have demonstrated complete ignorance of what was said to the
>> epesians because you seem to have an irrational aversion to the Word
>> of God. You denounce the Commandmants that God, in his Grace, gave
>> us.
>
>Rather, you are completly ignorant of what the letter to Ephesus really
>says, for it speaks of you, and you don't want to hear it.
LOL
It speaks to Gentiles who converted to the form of Judaism taught by
Jesus. You have not come up with anything to dispute that.
>
>I know my church and its problems, which is the beginning of healthly
>healing.
Obviously, you do not since you have demonstrated racism against Jesus
and have rejected his teachings.
>
>You, however, don't know your own.
I know that you bear false witness.
>
>>>>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>>>>
>>>> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>>>
>>>Worse than that.
>>>
>>>Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New Testament
>>>in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of
>>>Christ,
>>>they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
>>
>> The New and Old Testaments completely agree with each other.
>> Since both are the word of God, and God never lies and never makes
>> mistakes, they cannot disagree on even a tiny point.
>
>The New and Old Testament are opposite sides of the same coin (for now).
No, both teach salvation by grace and righteousness through actions.
>The age of law has passed.
That is not in the Bible.
Satan might say a thing like that, but it opposes what jesus said and
what the entire Bible says.
>We are now in the age of grace.
That started in the Garden of Eden.
>In due course of time, God will put them together as He sees fit.
If you bothered to actually study the Bible, you would know that they
two concepts are intertwined and inseparable.
>
>[snip]
>
>>>> Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
>>>> word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
>>>> obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
>>>
>>>Legalists are those who preach a Gospel of salvation or damnation by law,
>>>rather than salvation or damnation by acceptance or rejection of God's
>>>grace
>>>as established in Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Maybe...
>> You used a few catch-phrases there, but you might be correct.
>> Do you mean that they teach that salvation must be earned by
>> (mis)using the Law?
>
>Salvation by grace and the law have nothing to do with each other, except
>that the law makes salvation by grace (without law) necessary.
No, there is no promise of entry into Heaven by anything other than
grace. The Law brings us closer to God in THIS life, and grace brings
us closer to God in the NEXT life.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>Would you please cite the passage where Paul tells
>>the Ephesians they are converts to Judaism?
>
>Ephesians 4:17
"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the
vanity of their mind," - Ephesians 4:17
That doesn't say a word about them being Jewish.
It says not to walk "as the OTHER Gentiles walk".
In other words, he is writing to Gentiles, telling
them not to walk as the other Gentiles (those
caught up in the ways of the world) walk.
--
Pastor Dave
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>You are not making sense.
>If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
>true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
>obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
>intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
>
>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
His Commandments. He gave two. Once the Law
is fulfilled, it is complete. When you fill a glass of
water, you don't keep trying to fill it. It's full.
Pastor Dave
<slapm...@myhome.org> spake thusly:
>A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH
>- DOES THE BIBLE TEACH IT?
I don't see a rapture in the Bible at all.
Ranger Fan
That's quite a stretch. Of the seven translations I reviewed, only
ONE (the 1901 ASV) could possibly be interpreted that way. The KJV
says they are to "walk not as OTHER Gentiles walk" (emphasis mine).
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"The 5th Horseman" <slapm...@myhome.org> wrote in message
news:KFxXe.553$4f3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH - DOES THE BIBLE TEACH IT?
> "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain
> unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For
> the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
> the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall
> rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
> with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever
> be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:15-17).
>
>
>
>
>
> The above New Testament quotation describes the Rapture of the Church.
No, it doesn't. It describes an event that will happen to "those who are
alive and remain," i.e. the remnant, i.e. the 144,000, and even that will
bear more resemblance to the martyrdom of Stephen than some mass
disappearance of people.
The only part that applies to the church-at-large is "the dead in Christ
will rise first."
> The blessed hope of the Christian is Christ taking him to Himself forever,
> as He promises in John 14:2,3, "In my father's house are many mansions; if
> it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
> And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive
> you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." The question is,
> WHEN?
Which has nothing to do with the fictional "rapture."
[snip]
> The Rapture is the time when faithful Christians are suddenly snatched
> away from the earth to be with the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is not taught anywhere in the Bible.
[snip]
> I used to ignore the topic "Rapture of the Church" whenever I encountered
> it in my readings.
And you should have kept on "ignoring" it, since its not in the readings.
Jesus never taught it.
Jesus taught "whoever shall save their life shall loose it, but whoever
shall loose their life for my sake and the Gospel's shall save it."
Jesus taught "be faithful unto death and I shall give you a crown of life."
Jesus taught "They shall lead you unto governors and kings for my sake, for
a testimony against them: In your patience, posses ye your souls."
Jesus taught "whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not
worthy of me."
Stick to what Jesus taught.
[snip the rest of the drivel]
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
news:KFxXe.553$4f3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain
> unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For
> the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
> the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall
> rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
> with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever
> be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:15-17).
>
> The above New Testament quotation describes the Rapture of the Church.
No, it doesn't. It describes an event that will happen to "those who are
alive and remain," i.e. the remnant, i.e. the 144,000, and even that will
bear more resemblance to the martyrdom of Stephen than some mass
disappearance of people.
The only part that applies to the church-at-large is "the dead in Christ
will rise first."
> The blessed hope of the Christian is Christ taking him to Himself forever,
> as He promises in John 14:2,3, "In my father's house are many mansions; if
> it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
> And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive
> you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." The question is,
> WHEN?
Which has nothing to do with the fictional "rapture."
[snip]
> The Rapture is the time when faithful Christians are suddenly snatched
> away from the earth to be with the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is not taught anywhere in the Bible.
[snip]
> I used to ignore the topic "Rapture of the Church" whenever I encountered
> it in my readings.
And you should have kept on "ignoring" it, since its not in the readings.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Happy One" <happ...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d987c836...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
[snip]
> For those wanting evidence that Saul/Paul founded
> Christianity, not Jesus, note that verses this person
> cites to read about salvation are all written by
> Saul/Paul or surrogate, not words of Jesus.
You bafoon.
Paul was one of the editors of and contributors to all four of the Gospels,
either directly or indirectly.
You didn't notice that the names at the top of those Gospels happened to be
men that were running with Paul, or were in direct communication with the
inner circle?
You didn't notice that the Gospels contain conversations from closed-door
sessions that only a former Pharisee and Roman Proconsul could know about?
You didn't notice that all of the first three Gospel's are based on the
draft text, which was not supposed to get out in the open?
You didn't notice that Mark's "Gospel" is only a draft text?
And, as far as John's Gospel is concerned, you didn't know that John had to
write three epistles to counter those who errantly taught that his Gospel,
and Revelation, where not in opposition to Paul's theology?
Goofball: You don't know what Jesus said apart from Paul said because it was
Paul and the inner circle who told you what Jesus said. The same guys who
wrote the epistles and Revelation are the same guys who wrote the Gospels
which they did together, not separately--Matthew, John Mark, Luke, Paul,
Peter, and John Zebedee.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
>> Xeickleb...@comcast.net says...
>>
>> "Happy One" <happ...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1d987c836...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > For those wanting evidence that Saul/Paul founded
>> > Christianity, not Jesus, note that verses this person
>> > cites to read about salvation are all written by
>> > Saul/Paul or surrogate, not words of Jesus.
>>
>> You bafoon.
>
>
>
>> Paul was one of the editors of and contributors to all four of the
>> Gospels,
>> either directly or indirectly.
>>
>> You didn't notice that the names at the top of those Gospels happened to
>> be
>> men that were running with Paul, or were in direct communication with the
>> inner circle?
>
> supports the assertion that Saul/Paul founded
> Christianity, not Jesus.>
>
>> Goofball:
>
> Again, thank you.
>
> How many insults to you think it takes before someone
> will accept your fallacious arguments?
>
>> You don't know what Jesus said apart from Paul said because it was
>> Paul and the inner circle who told you what Jesus said. The same guys who
>> wrote the epistles and Revelation are the same guys who wrote the Gospels
>> which they did together, not separately--Matthew, John Mark, Luke, Paul,
>> Peter, and John Zebedee.
>
Oh, Jesus existed all right, and the men who knew Him, or knew about Him,
are the ones who wrote the New Testament, including the Gospels.
It's not like one groups of guys wrote the Gospels and another group
commented on them: The same group that comments on them is the same group
that wrote them down.
That's where you keep dropping the ball: You can't know anything about Jesus
Christ except by the New Testament, and the guy you keep trying to separate
from the Gospels, Paul, is one of the guys who wrote and edited the Gospels.
There is no difference between "what Paul said" and "what Jesus said"
because Paul and the rest of the inner circle are the ones who told you what
Jesus said.
Come on buddy, get with the program.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
>>
>> Oh, Jesus existed all right,
>
> that provided by believers.
>
>> That's where you keep dropping the ball: You can't know anything about
>> Jesus
>> Christ except by the New Testament, and the guy you keep trying to
>> separate
>> from the Gospels, Paul, is one of the guys who wrote and edited the
>> Gospels.
>
> different view of Jesus.
>
> Who's dropping the ball.
And the thing that the spurious accounts don't have that the known Gospels
do have is the testimony of members of the twelve, specifically (but not
exclusively) Matthew, James & John Zebedee, and Peter.
The spurious accounts, like the so-called "Gospel of Thomas" et al. are so
dumb that forgery is self-evident.
Ranger Fan
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> bashed randomly on a keyboard, which
resulted in:
>
>"Happy One" <happ...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1d98ae852...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>> Xeickleb...@comcast.net says...
>>>
>>> "Happy One" <happ...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.1d987c836...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>>
<snip>
>It's not like one groups of guys wrote the Gospels and another group
>commented on them: The same group that comments on them is the same group
>that wrote them down.
>
>That's where you keep dropping the ball: You can't know anything about Jesus
>Christ except by the New Testament, and the guy you keep trying to separate
>from the Gospels, Paul, is one of the guys who wrote and edited the Gospels.
>
>There is no difference between "what Paul said" and "what Jesus said"
>because Paul and the rest of the inner circle are the ones who told you what
>Jesus said.
>
>Come on buddy, get with the program.
>
>Ike
Ike,
I've read your comments here and in the "how we got the gospels" post,
and am I curious if there is evidence for this assertion somewhere, or
just speculation on your part?
=======================================================
<Insert Pithy Saying Here - it's apparently required on Usenet>
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
>> Xeickleb...@comcast.net says...
>
>> And the thing that the spurious accounts don't have that the known
>> Gospels
>> do have is the testimony of members of the twelve, specifically (but not
>> exclusively) Matthew, James & John Zebedee, and Peter.
>
>
>> The spurious accounts, like the so-called "Gospel of Thomas" et al. are
>> so
>> dumb that forgery is self-evident.
>
> aware of that.
From the Gospel of Thomas:
Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the
Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
James the Just, a.k.a. James the brother of Jesus, wasn't even a disciple
until sometime after the crucifixion, and he wasn't called "James the Just"
until he began leading the Jerusalem church about the time that Paul was
teaching and preaching.
Oops. Guess someone dropped the ball on that one.
And that's the way all these spurious documents are.
They don't begin to show up until about the 3rd century, or someone just
happened to recently "find" them in the desert somewhere, or no one ever
heard of them, or they make dumb mistakes like the one above.
And isn't it funny that these spurious documents never uphold the
Judeo-Christian accounts already documented in the verifiable Gospels? For
some strange reason (he said, his words dripping with sarcasm) they all just
happen to conflict with the Bible as we know it, which came from the men who
knew Him or knew about Him. And they hardly ever agree with each other,
either.
Stick to the Bible as known. It was written by the guys who were there.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
"Ranger Fan" <res0...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:j20ui11igquc93c04...@4ax.com...
The evidence is internal and external.
1) All three Gospels are based on the same common text (Mark's drafts) with
differences in annotations and slightly different evolving details.
2) There are at least four different versions of the "Mark" manuscripts,
each stopping at a different place in the story.
3) The Matthew Gospel practically proves the assertion, for it is obviously
based on a "Mark" manuscript, but with Matthew's observation.
4) This has been pretty much the orthodox Christian perspective on the
origins of the Gospels. It wasn't until the last century that certain
scholars started talking about a "Q", or unknown manuscript common to the
three Gospels, but they usually make this claim to separate Paul from the
Gospels, nevermind the links between the inner circle that runs throughout
the entire New Testament.
Aaron
"nomos." "Nomos" is also used in the Septuagint to translate the
Hebrew word "Torah" (Instruction). Several times in the New
Testament, the word "nomos" appears with an "a-" prefix attached to
it, making a new word: "anomos." In Greek, the "a-" prefix means
"no," "not," or "without."
The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless." Sometimes
the word appears in the New Testament in its noun form: "anomia" or
"anomian." You may recognize this as the source for the English word
"anomian" orits more common form "antinomian" Webster's Dictionary
defines an antinomian as "one who holds that under the gosple
dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because
faith alone is necessary to salvation."
I have heard many Christians promote this theology, even if they did
not know what the term for it is. When you consider what the Bible
says about Antinomians and Antinomianism, it is hard to see how anyone
would want to follow this doctrine. Let's look at a few places where
the Bible discusses Antinomianism.
Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the
Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy
in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform
many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces,
‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers against the
Commandmants'!" (Matt 7:21-23)
Here the Son of God describes a multitude of people ("many," he said,
not just a small handfull of cult-members) who find them selves
excluded from the Kingdom. Who are these people? It certainly cannot
be Atheists, Hindus, Islamics, or Buddhists who are being talked about
here. The people being talked about here call Jesus "Lord" and even
do good works in His name. These are Church people involved in Church
activities. They expect to inherit eternal life, but are stunned to
fing themselves excluded from the Kingdom. The "Jesus" that they
thought they knew was obviously a counterfeit Messiah. What is the
proof that they never really knew Him? They were Antinomians -
"worker of lawlessness."
Yshu`a spoke again of Antinomians in the parable of the wheat and the
tares. The tares (those who belong to the Evil One) grow alongside
the wheat (the people who belong to the Kingdom) until harvest time,
when the Angels are sent forth to "collect out of his Kingdom all the
things that cause people to sin and all those who practice lawlessness
(the Greek text uses the word "anomian")" (Matt 13:41) Throughout the
history of Christianity, the wheat and the tares have been side by
side, and it is often dificult to tell which is which. However, as
the harvest comes near, it will become more appearent which people are
wheat and which are tares. The Antinomians are the tares, Jesus told
us. The have been in His Kingdom for a long time, and soon He will
send forth His malachim (angels/messangers) to rid His Kingdom of
Antinomianism.
Paul wrote about a great "falling away" ("apostasia," departure from
the truth) that was to come. this falling away was not just refering
to some event in the distant future. Paul described the falling away
as "the mystery of iniquity (anomias, "lawlessness")," and said that
this "secret power of lawlessness" was "already at work," and that the
"wicked (anomos)" would be revealed (2Thes. 2:7). Since "anomos" is
an adjective, many translators provide a noun and render this as "the
Wicked One" or "the Lawless One," having in mind an end-time
"Anti-Chist" figure. While it is possible that there may be some
reference here to the Anti-Christ, the word "anomos" more likely is
refering to Lawless Theology (Antinomianism) which caused the Church
to depart from the Torah, the Word of God, and go into apostasy, or
possibly both. The error of Antinomianism , the "secret power of
lawlessness," is being exposed in our generation. Many Christians are
waking up and returning to Torah, to G-d's word. The secret power of
lawlessness is no longer secret to these people who love Messiah.
When the secret is out lawlessness losses its grip over these people.
The root of the Christian Church's apostasy has been her rejection of
the Torah. Perhaps it would be fairer and more accurtae to say that
the Church rejected those elements of the Bible that seemed "too
Jewish" for her. The transgression of any of God's Commandments is
wrong, though, because "sin is the transgression of the Torah (God's
instructions) (1 John 3:4). When we violate God's Torah, we sin.
Is there any hope for people who are part of a Church that has been
Apostatae for almost all of her history? Deliverance from the spirit
of lawlessness come by the grace of God, but it is a grace that
teaches us to honor God's Torah, not a grace that teaches us to be
Antinomians.
"For God’s grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all
people. It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures,
and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age;
while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain
hope, which is the appearing of the Sh'khinah (Divine Presence) of our
great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yshu`a the Messiah. He
gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation
of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager
to do good" (Titus 2:11-14).
A grace which does not teach us to honor God's Torah is NOT the Grace
of God, and a savior who does not redeem us from evil (Antinomianism)
is not the true Savior, but a counterfeit "Christ" who cannot save.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
>> Xeickleb...@comcast.net says...
>> > I've read your comments here and in the "how we got the gospels" post,
>> > and am I curious if there is evidence for this assertion somewhere, or
>> > just speculation on your part?
>>
>> The evidence is internal and external.
>>
>> 1) All three Gospels are based on the same common text (Mark's drafts)
>
> Bible? In other words, just speculation on his part.
There are at least four types of "Mark" documents. The NSRV documents the
variations, and includes both the short and long endings, along with
variations of the long ending.
> And boy is he sure - no evidence, but sure. But,
> obviously, that is the definition of "faith" - belief
> in the absence of, or contrary to, the evidence.
Ah, you're such a putz.
All of the evidence is in the texts, as I documented in an earlier post.
Of course, you never could deal with the literary facts.
However, like a good little Jesus Seminarian/Agnostic/anti-orthodox heretic,
you just keep throwing those accusations out there. Who knows? Maybe
somebody will actually believe you. Never mind if the evidence says
otherwise.
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>
>Salvation by grace alone simply isn't good enough for the Pharisees, and, in
>due course of time, they'll kill you for not adhering to their laws and
>ordinances.
Jesus IS a Pharisee, and He taught that those who obey God's
commandmants are saved by grace, while those who reject the
Commandments are not saved even when they call upon Him for salvation
(Matthew 7:21-23).
>
>In other words, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be at the end.
Yes, Christians pretending to follow Jesus will attack the people who
really follow Jesus, just as you do Ike.
>
>Ike
>
>
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:49:55 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>Would you please cite the passage where Paul tells
>>>the Ephesians they are converts to Judaism?
>>
>>Ephesians 4:17
>
>"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
>henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the
>vanity of their mind," - Ephesians 4:17
Yep! Now that they have converted, they no longer do Pagan things.
>
>That doesn't say a word about them being Jewish.
There were TWO choices: Jewish or Gentile.
They abandoned Paganism and converted to Judaism.
>It says not to walk "as the OTHER Gentiles walk".
>In other words, he is writing to Gentiles, telling
>them not to walk as the other Gentiles (those
>caught up in the ways of the world) walk.
So, walk as the Jews walk.
Got it!
Aaron
<res0...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
Since there are just the two options: Jewish (according to the Bible),
and Gentile (opposing the Bible), there is not stretch at all to say
that they were converted from Paganism to Judaism.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:56:17 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>You are not making sense.
>>If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
>>true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
>>obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
>>intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
>>
>>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>
>That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
>His Commandments. He gave two.
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says that all 613 Commandmants will be in
effect and must be obeyed until Heaven and Earth are destroyed.
In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that our obediance to all 613
Commandmants must be motivated by our love for God and our love for
our fellow man.
In Mathew 7:21-23 Jesus says that those who reject the Commandmants
are not saved even when they call upon Him for salvation.
>Once the Law
>is fulfilled, it is complete. When you fill a glass of
>water, you don't keep trying to fill it. It's full.
Yes, full, not non-existant.
Now that the Law is complete, we can obey it far better than before.
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
[snip]
> And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the
Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
> He could not
> even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
> with His theology.
Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
> Yet Christians go about rejecting the Commandmants for no biblicl
> reson at all.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son
Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment, And he that
keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know
that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
> Paul even identified this Christian theology with the
> Anti-Christ in Second Thessalonians, but the Christians, like you,
> Ike, follow the man-made theology, Antinomianism instead of following
> Jesus.
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes
and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you
observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say,
and do not.For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay
them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of
their fingers.
>>>>And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're
>>>>fulfilled
>>>>in
>>>>Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our
>>>>sins
>>>>in no way "disavows" the commandments.
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when
there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who
is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the
offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by
grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not
as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to
condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which
receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in
life by one, Jesus Christ.
>>> You are not making sense.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But
for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised
up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was
raised again for our justificatio
> You don't make any sence because you claim that you believe that jesus
> was the Messiah, but you reject His teaching and hate his people.
Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,
even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I
proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He
was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there
is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he
is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
> You
> disagree with me so you try to use "Jew" as an insult.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
> Jesus IS a
> Jew, so I do not feel insulted.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision,
which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and
circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;
whose praise is not of men, but of God.
> You try to use "Pharisee" as an
> insult, but Jesus IS a Pharisee, so I am not insulted.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land
to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the
child of hell than yourselves.
> However your
> attempts to use personal attacks rather than backing up you claims
> with scripture demonstrates that you doubt your proclaimed theology.
> You choice of words to use as insults indicates racism against Jesus
> Himself. I would not consider this following Jesus at all.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited
sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of
dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear
righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs
of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we
had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with
them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto
yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.Ye serpents, ye generation of
vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
>>> If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
>>> true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
>>> obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
>>> intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the
truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the
law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the
Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many
things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among
you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
>>Jesus fulfilled the law that man could never keep, and, in its place,
>>established salvation by grace.
>
> God said that man COULD keep the Commandments.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that
understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out
of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth
good, no, not one.
> In Deiteronomy
> 30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater
burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to
idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from
which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
> the
> Bible says that Enoch, Abraham, Zachariah, and Elishivah all kept the
> Commandments.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
> The Bible says that the truth is known on the account
> of two or more witnesses.
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a
greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom
of God is greater than he. And all the people that heard him, and the
publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the
Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being
not baptized of him.
The Bible gives us two times two witnesses:
> two from the Old Testament and two from the Gospel.
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye
entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
> Furthermore, the LAW states that salvation is through grace, in Exodus
> 20:6. Of course, you cannot have garce unless the Law is in full
> effect. So grace and the law work together to bring us closer to God.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy
through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them
all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
>>Immediately the Pharisees that infiltrated
>>the early church set about the work of perverting Jesus' Good News, laying
>>the yoke of law back on man's shoulders despite God's grace.
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed,
saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep
the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,
Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among
us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and
believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them
the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and
them, purifying their hearts BY FAITH.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we
believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,
even as they.
> Jesus IS a Pharisee, so you are not making sense.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the
tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say,
If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers
with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto
yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and
some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in
your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may
come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of
righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew
between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things
shall come upon this generation.
> Historically speaking the deviation away from God's Law occured
> gradually begining in the Later Second Century CE.
>
>>
>>> Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>
>>Jesus has two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor.
>
> No Jesus said that our obedience to all 613 Commandmants depends on
> those two motivations.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you
rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in
heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my
burden is light.
>>The rest are fulfilled in Him (but woe to those who teach that grace is
>>license).
>
> that is nonsencical and double talk.
> Fulfilled = filled to fullness = complete.
> Now correct motivations are required as well as correct actions.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but
under grace.
> You say that the law is abolished, then you pronounce woe to those who
> disobey the Law. That is hypocritical nonsence.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by
the law; ye are fallen from grace.
>>>>Jesus uses the dual symbolisms in the same way he uses "Balaam and
>>>>Barak"
>>>>and "Jezebel" in the Seven Letters.
>>>>
>>>>"Balaaam and Barak" represents the masculine problem of putting
>>>>righteousnes
>>>>before Grace.
>>>
>>> LOL
>>> Obviouly to anyone who has read the Bible, you cannot have Grace
>>> without the Law, therefore Righteousness and grace are intertwined and
>>> inseprable.
>>
>>Grace was necessary because of the law, which no man (save Jesus) could
>>keep.
>
> Wrong.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The Bible specifically gives us three men other than Jesus and
> one woman who all obeyed the Law.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> If you bothered to read the Bible,
> you would know that salvation by grace is not "Plan-B." Obedience to
> all of the Law, perfectly in thought word and deed, does not "earn"
> you salvation. God did not promise that anyone could get into Heaven
> for obeying the commandmants perfectly.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon
all.
> You are tacing that legalism was god's desire but he will settle for
> grace.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the
law of sin and death.
> That is wrong on both counts. he expects us to love Him
> enough to obey without thinking of reward and gives us salvation
> despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Perfect obedience to all
> Commandmants is the bare minimum level of righteousness that entitles
> you to live on the Earth. Salvation is way beyong that!
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law,
did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are
delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should
serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
>>>>"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is
>>>>license.
>>>>(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe
>>>>regard.)
>>>
>>> So, Jezebel, in your opinion symbolized Christianity?
>>
>>"Jezebel," "Balaam and Barak," and the "Nicolaitans" represent divisive
>>factions that would (and have) risen within the churches.
>>
>>"Jezebel" represents the difilement of believers via the seduction of
>>spiritual whoredom.
>>"Balaam and Barak" represent the difilement of believers via the deception
>>of false ritual and ordinance.
>>The "Nicolaitans" represent the difilement of believers via the perversion
>>of judgment.
>
> Your description of Jezabel describes all Christianity.
> The other are more specific, though all branches of Christianity
> follow Pagan rituals and holidays that are forbidden in the Bible.
> These evil customs of Christianity could not exist without the
> leadership judging them falsely and allowing paganism in the churches.
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an
answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with
meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil
of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good
conversation in Christ.
>>>>It's all part of the symetry of prophecy.
>>>>
>>>>Which brings us right back to those 140,000 Judeo-Christians who don't
>>>>have
>>>>the feminine problem (playing the whore) or the masculine problem
>>>>(playing
>>>>the ogre).
>>>
>>> So they are not christian at all, basically Orthodox Jews who accept
>>> Jesus as Messiah! Yes, that fits!
>>
>>Orthodox Judaism is dead. It died when Jesus said "Amen" to the
>>destruction
>>of the temple.
>
> Ike, your swastika is showing, again.
>
> Orthodox Judiasm was founded after the destruction of the Temple, and
> agrees with the lifestyle that Jesus taught. the Orthodox Jews who
> reject Jesus' identity as Messiah obey his teachings because they are
> biblical, and the Christians who proclaim jesus' identity as Messiah
> reject His teachings because they are biblical(Jewish). Most
> interestingly, the Jews Celebrate Chanukkah, but it is only mentioned
> in the New Testamant when Jesus celebrated it and is not mentioned in
> the Old Testament at all.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that
are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together,
as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold,
your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall
not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh
in the name of the Lord.
> It is ironic, but you can see God's hand. The Orthodox Jews have one
> half of the puzzle, and the Christians have the other, but you need
> BOTH to see the picture.
>
>>
>>>>>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
>>>>
>>>>Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc.
>>>>etc.
>>>>etc.
>>
>>The 144,000 come from the lineage of the Jews, but believe in the Gospel
>>of
>>Jesus Christ, without the perversions of the Pharisees, Saducees, and
>>Herodians.
>>
>>> No, they never met a christian. Christianity did not begin spliting
>>> off from Jesus' faith until the end of the second Century CE.
>>
>>Christianity IS Jesus' faith.
>
> He never wnt to church,
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the
midst of them.
celebrated Christmas,
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary
his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened
their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and
myrrh.
easter,
1Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain
of the church.
And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter
also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to
four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring
him forth to the people.
communion,
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my
body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This
cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in
remembrance of me.
> sunday,
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to
break bread...
> permitted us to pray to Him or worship Him; He forbid all
> this.
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping
him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou?
Sorry, Jesus opposes Christianity. The theologies that
> separate Christianity from Judaism developed over time begining in the
> Late Second Century CE.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but
when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which
were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also
was carried away with their dissimulation.
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the
gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest
after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou
the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a
man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus
Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of
the law shall no flesh be justified.
>>>>> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
>>>>> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
>>>>> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
>>>>> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>>>>
>>>>Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
>>>
>>> Since Jesus IS a Pharisee, you compliment me greatly!
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the
outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion
and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup
and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
>>Your delusions know no bounds: Jesus was not a party to any of the
>>perversities of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin.
>
> What perversions?
> You are just making things up!
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he
said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the
wrath to come?
> It was the Sanhedrin that ruled that Jews who accepted Jesus as
> Messiah should NOT be persecuted because He might BE the Messiah.
> This is recorded in Acts 5:34-39. Note that the speaker, Rabban
> Gamliel the Elder, was the leader of Beyt Hillel at the time, and Beyt
> hillel was the majority faction of the Pharisees.
and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that
they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were
counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in
every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
> Yes, the Saducees were corrupt by the time of Jesus, but the Pharisees
> were a collection of severl groups with two unifying theologies, both
> of which were opposed by the Saducees.
>
> A Pharisee was a Jew who believed that there was an afterlife and that
> each person must take responcibility for his own righteousness. This
> is exactly what Jesus taught. there were several groups of Pharisees
> and Jesus DID oppose some of the teachings of Beyt Shammai, but he
> agreed with Beyt Hillel, the majority group of Pharisees.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint
and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave
the other undone.
>>>>Nonsense, but one would expect that from a Pharisee living in the image
>>>>of
>>>>those who tried to corrupt the Gospel in the first century, too.
>>>
>>> So, Ike, since you cannot support your theology logically, you make
>>> personal attacks. I guess that shows what kind of person you are.
>>
>>You wear your defilements of the Gospel like a badge of honor, and anyone
>>who knows the teachings of Jesus Christ can plainly see it.
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Yes, a book that adds your personal fantasies to the book of
>>> Revelations, and the author of Revelation promises that anyone who
>>> adds to the book will have added to him all the plagues described in
>>> the book of Revelation. Maybe, for your own sake, you should re-think
>>> your plan.
>>
>>I already have the plagues. I have all my life. And there are more yet to
>>come. Bring them all on. It still doesn't change the fact that what I am
>>saying is the truth, plagues be damned.
>
> So, no matter how god tries to speak to you and urge you not to commit
> evil actions you will do them anyways? That is selfdestructive.
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the
Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
>>(Funny thing about the Bible: One has to know when to keep the letter of
>>the
>>rules, and when to break the letter of the rules, as did Jesus.)
>
> Jesus NEVER broke the letter of the Law.
> Why would you accuse Jesus of evil actions?
> Do you think that this blasphemy justifies your choices?
> Jesus disregarded man-made additions to the Letter of the Law, but
> obeyed all of the Letter of the Law, and Demonstrated the Spirit of
> the Law.
>
>
>>
>>>>That won't exactly fit here.
>>>>
>>>>For now, we'll go through the simple list of the six initial sins of the
>>>>churches (with two more to come in the End of the Age).
>>>>
>>>>Ephesus = the sin of legalism (a.k.a. Pharisee-like fundamentalists who
>>>>put
>>>>law before grace) = 1st century.
>>>
>>> That is NOT Pharisaic theology. You should not use a word when you
>>> are obviously ignorant of its meaning. Jesus Himself is a Pharisee,
>>> and you used His beliefs as an insult. Very Anti-Semitic (Anti-Jesus)
>>> of you!
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a
publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I
am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this
publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes
unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a
sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:
for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth
himself shall be exalted.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law,
then Christ is dead in vain.
>> "We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the
>>same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to
>>lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye
>>abstain
>>from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled,
>>and
>>from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare
>>ye well."
>>
>>This is the whole end of the matter of the law where Christians are
>>concerned. God deals with the rest as He goes.
>
> And yet you skipped those parts of the biblical text that disprove
> your theory. Ike you have failed to prove your idea.
>
>>
>>2) Jesus was in no way a party to the Pharisees, Saducees, or Sanhedrin.
>>These things He prophecies against, and these things He destroyed.
>
> That is not true. Jesus taught the defining theologies of Pharisaic
> Judaism and even quoted Rabbi Hillel's "Golden Rule." Many of Jesus'
> teachings were settleing disputes between Beyt Hillel and Beyt
> Shammai. So he took a very active interest in setting Pharisaic
> Judaism on a unified and correct track. This goal was accomplished
> though the Holy Spirit guiding the formation of Orthodox Judaism to
> agree with Beyt Hillel and Jesus.
And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto
us Barabbas: (Who for a certain sedition made in the city, and for murder,
was cast into prison.)
Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
>>3) I am very pro-Semitic, pro-Jesus, and pro-Old Testament, but I am
>>anti-abomination, which means anti-Pharisee, anti-Saducee, and
>>anti-Herodian, especially when these characters come insidiously creeping
>>in
>>the back door to pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
>
> Obviously you do not know what a Herodian was. Herodians were
> Israelite who abandoned Judaism to support the paganism and political
> power of Herod. They were a political group and not even Jewish. In
> many respects they are analagous to those nominal Christians who
> abandoned the Law of God to make Christianity more popular to the
> pagans.
But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
>>> In Pharisaic Judaism, grace was more important than the Law.
>>> Christians frequently miss this concept because God was a lot more
>>> important to the Pharisees that He is to Christians.
But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
>>LOL. Christians didn't "miss" the concept. It was never there to begin
>>with.
>
> Your Swastika is showing again.
> You make false assumptions and bear false witness due to your
> anti-Semitism. I saw the filth on your website. You even promote
> Replacement Theology.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say
all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Go back and read what you just wrote about Jesus' churches, for better or
worse.
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever
they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after THEIR works:
for they say, and do not.
>>>>Paul rebuked the Ephesians for putting on the law again and leaving
>>>>behind
>>>>the Gospel of Grace.
>>>
>>> No he did not.
>>> In Ephesians 4:17, he said that they were longer
>>> Goyim/Ethnos/Pagans/Gentiles. He continued to describe the ways of
>>> the Gentiles with great disdain and revulsion.
>>
>>Christians are "Israel," but they are not "Jews," at least not Jews that
>>in
>>any way has to do with the Pharisees, Saducees, and Herodians, i.e. the
>>traditional (and dead) Judaism you espouse.
>
> Ike, Christians are NOT Israel.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he
that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit,
even so it is now.
> They are defined by their refusal to
> graft into the Olive Tree. Jesus the Pharisee was a prime exmple of
> the majority opinions of Pharisaic Judaism. Granted, He wrote off the
> Saducees, but they had already written off the idea of a Messiah
> saving souls, so there is symatry there. Herodians were not even
> Jews; they were Karet (cut off from Israel for committing idolatry)
> and a political group. I espouse the Judaism taught by Jesus in the
> Gospels.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy
through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Jews don't save Christians. Christians save Jews.
>>>>Moreover, Paul rebuked Peter for doing exactly what you
>>>>said-circumcising
>>>>Gentiles--when circumcision of the flesh is now irrelavent to Jew and
>>>>Gentile alike.
>>>
>>> Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
>>> the Law.
>>
>>Paul rebuked Peter for circumcising Gentiles, plain and simple, and for
>>taking on the Pharisees seperatist attitudes.
>
> That is NOT in the Bible.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation
with them,
*************
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he
was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with
the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself,
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also
was carried away with their dissimulation.
> I notice that you snipped out the explanation that I gave you before
> you told that lie. Here it is again. If you think that you can use
> the Bible to dispute it give me some quotes. Otherwise don't tell
> such obvious lies.
>
> Paul rebuked Peter for obeying a man-made stricture while disobeying
> the Law. Peter followed a man-made stricture against eating with
> Gntiles, even converts, because Gentiles were unclean. The Bible does
> say that Toshavim (people who have not accepted the covenant
> (including all of the Law)) are unclean, but the NT specifies that it
> is at the point where they dedicate themselves to learning and obeying
> the Commandmants that they become Gerim (Converts to Judaism). There
> is no prohibition against eating with the Toshavim, they simply cannot
> partake of the Passover either the physical animal Offering or that of
> Jesus. The Bible does require Jews to treat gerim with respect.
> Since the people in Peter's synagogue had made the commitment to serve
> God, Peter was not only allowed to eat with them, he was required to
> show them this respect. Paul, while serving Messiah converted
> literally thousands of Gentiles to Judaism.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation
with them,
*************
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he
was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with
the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself,
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also
was carried away with their dissimulation.
> Circumcision of the flesh is a Commandment of God's. It is only
> irrelivant if the person then acts as if he is not part of the
> Covenant, just like Paul wote.
>
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>>>He takes only 1/3 of Pergomos (I have a few things against you)
>>>>>>because
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>idolatry and spiritual fornication. (3/7)
>>>>>
>>>>> Christians of many denominations.
>>>>
>>>>The pot calling the kettle black, Ephesian.
>>>
>>> I have never been to that city.
>>
>>You ARE that city.
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Ike, you have demonstrated complete ignorance of what was said to the
>>> epesians because you seem to have an irrational aversion to the Word
>>> of God. You denounce the Commandmants that God, in his Grace, gave
>>> us.
>>
>>Rather, you are completly ignorant of what the letter to Ephesus really
>>says, for it speaks of you, and you don't want to hear it.
>
> LOL
> It speaks to Gentiles who converted to the form of Judaism taught by
> Jesus. You have not come up with anything to dispute that.
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you,
to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are
the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ
Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
>>I know my church and its problems, which is the beginning of healthly
>>healing.
>
> Obviously, you do not since you have demonstrated racism against Jesus
> and have rejected his teachings.
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I
know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the
synagogue of Satan.
>>You, however, don't know your own.
>
> I know that you bear false witness.
>
>>
>>>>>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>>>>>
>>>>> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>>>>
>>>>Worse than that.
>>>>
>>>>Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New
>>>>Testament
>>>>in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of
>>>>Christ,
>>>>they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
>>>
>>> The New and Old Testaments completely agree with each other.
>>> Since both are the word of God, and God never lies and never makes
>>> mistakes, they cannot disagree on even a tiny point.
>>
>>The New and Old Testament are opposite sides of the same coin (for now).
>
> No, both teach salvation by grace and righteousness through actions.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God:
>>The age of law has passed.
>
> That is not in the Bible.
> Satan might say a thing like that, but it opposes what jesus said and
> what the entire Bible says.
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is
no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not
sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of
him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the FREE gift. For if through the offence
of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,
which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was
by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto
justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which
receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in
life by one, Jesus Christ.
>>We are now in the age of grace.
>
> That started in the Garden of Eden.
>
>>In due course of time, God will put them together as He sees fit.
>
> If you bothered to actually study the Bible, you would know that they
> two concepts are intertwined and inseparable.
>
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>> Ike, do you even know what a "legalist" is? Most people who use the
>>>>> word to descibe other simply mean that the other person is more
>>>>> obediant to God than the speaker chooses to be.
>>>>
>>>>Legalists are those who preach a Gospel of salvation or damnation by
>>>>law,
>>>>rather than salvation or damnation by acceptance or rejection of God's
>>>>grace
>>>>as established in Jesus Christ.
>>>
>>> Maybe...
>>> You used a few catch-phrases there, but you might be correct.
>>> Do you mean that they teach that salvation must be earned by
>>> (mis)using the Law?
>>
>>Salvation by grace and the law have nothing to do with each other, except
>>that the law makes salvation by grace (without law) necessary.
>
> No, there is no promise of entry into Heaven by anything other than
> grace. The Law brings us closer to God in THIS life, and grace brings
> us closer to God in the NEXT life.
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy
boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more
excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou
thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An
instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of
knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that
preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man
should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest
idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law,
through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is
written.
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a
breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if
the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his
uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision
which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and
circumcision dost transgress the law?
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision,
which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and
circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;
whose praise is not of men, but of God.
>>Now, and at this time, we are saved by grace through faith, and we do not
>>add or subtract anything to it or from it.
>
>
>>
>>Ike
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:21:56 GMT, Pastor Dave
><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:49:55 -0400, Aaron
>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>>>Would you please cite the passage where Paul tells
>>>>the Ephesians they are converts to Judaism?
>>>
>>>Ephesians 4:17
>>
>>"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
>>henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the
>>vanity of their mind," - Ephesians 4:17
>
>Yep! Now that they have converted, they no longer do Pagan things.
Which has nothing to do with being Jewish.
>>That doesn't say a word about them being Jewish.
>
>There were TWO choices: Jewish or Gentile.
And this means what? Gentiles are not pagan by nature.
I am a Gentile and I am not a pagan.
>They abandoned Paganism and converted to Judaism.
If they had done that, they would have been violating
the Gospel. Paul dealt with those who were coming
into the church in Galatia and telling people that they
had to convert to Judaism.
Galatians 3:1-3
1) O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey
the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was
written among you crucified?
2) This only I would learn from you: Did you receive
the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
3) Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do
you now perfect yourself in the flesh?
Galatians 5:1-8
1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which
Christ has made us free, and do not again be held
with the yoke of bondage.
2) Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you are
circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3) For I testify again to every man that is
circumcised, that he is a debtor to do all
the Law,
4) you who are justified by Law are deprived of all
effect from Christ; you fell from grace.
5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of
righteousness out of faith.
6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working
through love.
7) You were running well. Who hindered you that
you do not obey the truth?
8) This persuasion is not from Him who calls you.
>>It says not to walk "as the OTHER Gentiles walk".
>>In other words, he is writing to Gentiles, telling
>>them not to walk as the other Gentiles (those
>>caught up in the ways of the world) walk.
>
>So, walk as the Jews walk.
>Got it!
You are being disingenuous and sarcastic.
Sarcasm is not Biblical proof.
If one is told not to walk as the other Gentiles walk,
then one is being called a Gentile.
For example, if I say to my son, "Just because the
other kids do it, that doesn't mean that you should",
I am saying that he is a kid. I am not saying that
he has become an adult, just because he doesn't
do as the other children do.
So far, you are batting zero, Scripturally. And if you
wish to discuss this, I am willing, but thus far, you
have only offered, "I said so.". :)
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>
>>That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
>>His Commandments. He gave two.
>
>In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says that all 613 Commandmants will be in
>effect and must be obeyed until Heaven and Earth are destroyed.
No, He did not. Those words are not found there.
You changed them.
I believe heaven and earth has passed. That was
a symbolic statement. But even if you take it to be
literal, the presence of the Law does not equal being
under the Law for believers. The Law serves to convict
those who are in unbelief.
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak
through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the
likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin
in the flesh;" - Romans 8:3
Note: The Law could not do it. No one has followed
the Law perfectly and thus, no one could be saved
by it.
1) You don't seem to understand the time line.
When Jesus walked the Earth, *HE* had to
fulfill the Law perfectly, in order to be a perfect
sacrifice.
2) Once He accomplished what He did, those
who believe in Him are freed from the Law.
Colossians 2:13-14
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened
together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
was against us, which was contrary to us, and took
it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
"For the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
set me free from the law of sin and of death."
- Romans 8:2
"Why then the Law? It was added because of
transgressions, until the Seed should come to
those to whom it had been promised, being
ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand."
- Galatian 3:19
Note: *UNTIL* the Seed should come. He did come.
3) Believers are not saved by the Law, nor could they
be. Believers are saved by grace through faith UNTO
good works in Christ. Again, note the time line.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that
not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
to good works, which God has before ordained that we
should walk in them.
>In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that our obediance to all 613
>Commandmants must be motivated by our love for God and our love for
>our fellow man.
He never said any such words. You added them.
Do not add your own words and think that anyone
here is going to think you're quoting the Bible.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>Since there are just the two options: Jewish (according to the Bible),
No, the two options are believer and unbeliever.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
Romans 2:10-11
10) But glory, honor, and peace, to every man
that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to
the Gentile:
11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
Yes, we can tell by what He said to them...
"You are of your father the Devil and the lusts of your
father you will do." - John 8:44a
>He could not
>even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
>with His theology.
Really?
Is that why He was crucified, as they shouted for it
to happen?
Is that why they said to Pilate that by their law, He
was worthy of death?
>God said that man COULD keep the Commandments. In Deiteronomy
>30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
No, God did not say that. And if it were so easy,
people would have. You must think God the fool,
for setting up all of those sacrifices, when it was
so easy to keep the Law.
Do you also practice animal sacrifices?
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>The Greek word used in the Greek translations of the New Testament is
>"nomos." "Nomos" is also used in the Septuagint to translate the
>Hebrew word "Torah" (Instruction). Several times in the New
>Testament, the word "nomos" appears with an "a-" prefix attached to
>it, making a new word: "anomos." In Greek, the "a-" prefix means
>"no," "not," or "without."
>
>The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless." Sometimes
>the word appears in the New Testament in its noun form: "anomia" or
>"anomian." You may recognize this as the source for the English word
>"anomian" orits more common form "antinomian" Webster's Dictionary
>defines an antinomian as "one who holds that under the gosple
>dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because
>faith alone is necessary to salvation."
You haven't made a point.
>I have heard many Christians promote this theology, even if they did
>not know what the term for it is. When you consider what the Bible
>says about Antinomians and Antinomianism, it is hard to see how anyone
>would want to follow this doctrine. Let's look at a few places where
>the Bible discusses Antinomianism.
No one is saying that. Liberty does not equal license
and it is dishonest of you to say that someone is
saying that.
>Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the
>Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
>22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy
>in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform
>many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces,
>‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers against the
>Commandmants'!" (Matt 7:21-23)
The Bible does not say, "workers against the
Commandments". You are dishonestly changing
the wording of the Bible.
And you forgot to note that the people He told to
"get away from Him", were those who were doing
good works. That should teach you that it is not
by good works that we are saved. Rather, good
works flow forth from a good heart and good works
does not mean being bound under the Law.
"But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has
made me free from the law of sin and death."
- Romans 8:2
This is very simple stuff. You are preaching exactly
what the Gospel of Christ teaches against.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:20:32 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
><Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>>news:t0bsi19r7jp4h9h0m...@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Since actual faith in Messiah and faith in God require obedience to
>>> all the Commandments as well as an understanding that this obedience
>>> does not "earn" salvation through this obedience. Obviously "keeping
>>> faithful even unto death" means obeying the Commandmants, and trusting
>>> that the death of Messiah provides the atonement that allows us to
>>> eneter heaven.
>>
>>Salvation by grace "requires" nothing but faith (maturity and growth not
>>withstanding).
>
>Of course The English word "faith" is a poor translation of the hebrew
>word "emmunah" and/or the Greek word "pistis," both of which mean a
>moral conviction that brings about actions. So, without obedience to
>God's Commandmants, there is no faith.
Obedience is to the Law of liberty in Christ.
As for the rest, that is true, it is a moral conviction
that brings about actions, which is the lesson
James was teaching.
StratMatt
... we have now entered the twilight zone...
Try reading the Bible. Then you'll actually know what it says.
Matt
Read The Bible
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his
disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit
in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you
observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after
their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind
heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them
on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move
them with one of their fingers. But all their works
they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their
phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their
garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and
the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in
the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master,
even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no
man your father upon the earth: for one is your
Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called
masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he
that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for
ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them
that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and
Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses,
and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye
shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea
and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than
yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say,
Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing;
but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple,
he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is
greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the
gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is
nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is
upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for
whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that
sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by
the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it,
and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall
swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and
by him that sitteth thereon.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for
ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have
omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment,
mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and
not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which
strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean
the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within
they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind
Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup
and platter, that the outside of them may be clean
also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres,
which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within
full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men,
but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe
unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because
ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the
sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been
in the days of our fathers, we would not have been
partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye
are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye
serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape
the damnation of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise
men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and
crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your
synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed
upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto
the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew
between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto
you, All these things shall come upon this
generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest
the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto
thee, how often would I have gathered thy children
together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under
her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is
left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall
not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is
he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
> You're not following Jesus.
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware
of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the
Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
There rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees
which believed, saying, That it was needful to
circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law
of Moses.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went
out from us have troubled you with words, subverting
your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep
the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.
Read The Bible
> BIBLE TEACH IT?
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And
then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And
he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the
other.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air.
After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars
of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in
heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the
Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and
glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall
gather together his elect from the four winds, from
the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part
of heaven.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto
him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above
all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so
that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I
was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye
know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in
his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already
work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be
taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be
revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness
of his coming.
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may
rest from their labours; and their works do follow
them.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that
shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
> The blessed hope
In hope of eternal life.
That blessed hope.
The hope of eternal life.
> the Judgment Seat of Christ for rewards
The seventh angel sounded (the 7th trumpet); and
there were great voices in heaven, saying, The
kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our
Lord.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead, that they should be
judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy
servants the prophets, and to the saints.
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a
fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very
tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the
heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may
judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me.
Read The Bible
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and hope to the end for the grace that is to be
brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven
with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking
vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey
not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall
be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his
power; When he shall come to be glorified in his
saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.
> the coming judgment from God.
When he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of them that were slain for the word
of God, and for the testimony which they held: And
they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O
Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge
our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white
robes were given unto every one of them; and it was
said unto them, that they should rest yet for a
little season, until their fellowservants also and
their brethren, that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before
the throne.
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with
fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the
beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and
over the number of his name, stand on the sea of
glass, having the harps of God.
And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for
the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and
which had not worshipped the beast, neither his
image, neither had received his mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of
the dead lived not again until the thousand years
were finished. This is the first resurrection.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and
shall reign with him a thousand years.
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make
unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of
wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of
wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy
in this mountain the face of the covering cast over
all people, and the vail that is spread over all
nations. He will swallow up death in victory.
Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
*******
> Christians go about rejecting the Commandments for
> no Biblical reason at all.
All the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
He that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For
this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not
kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any
other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this
saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
We keep his commandments, and do those things that
are pleasing in his sight. And this is his
commandment, That we should believe on the name of
his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he
gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his
StratMatt
"The 5th Horseman" <slapm...@myhome.org> wrote in message
news:0GxXe.554$4f3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH - DOES THE BIBLE TEACH IT?
NO!!!
You cannot find it ANYWHERE in the Bible!! Nowhere!
> I used to ignore the topic "Rapture of the Church" whenever I encountered
> it in my readings.
That was smart.
> After all, I had been taught that the only Second Coming
> of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be visible, with power and great
> glory; that there will be no secret Rapture. Some writers I've read
> virtually ridiculed the "rapture theory." I gave my silent assent as a
> matter of course.
Yes they were ridiculing it because they were testing that false doctrine
with the words of God in the Bible.
Result? Pre-trib rapture is unBiblical nonsense.
The writers you read knew that.
> Lately, however, I got myself interested in the subject and, to my
> surprise, I found out that a preTribulation Rapture of the Church has more
> scriptural bases than postTribulationists will care to admit.
Okay, let's see it then.
Please. :)
> At the outset
> let me point out that postTribulationists - those who hold that the Rapture
> will happen after the Great Tribulation - have no great doctrinal variance
> with preTribulationists, those who believe that the Rapture will occur
> shortly before the Tribulation Period starts.
Yes we do.
> The bone of contention, therefore, is the timing of the
> Rapture in relation to the Tribulation Period.
Exactly!
Fortunately I don't have to read this entire post because I've already read
Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 previously.
Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 are describing the SAME event.
Matthew 24:29-31 says, " But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars
will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and
then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the
tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on
the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather
together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the
other."
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 says, " For the Lord Himself will descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of
God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and
remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord
in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one
another with these words."
The very SAME event.
BUT, Matthew 24:29 says AFTER THE TRIBULATION!!!
Matt
>
> First of all, let's make sure what period of time we are referring to.
We've
> all heard about "the great tribulation," at least those of us who are Bible
> readers. Even then there are different beliefs about this subject. Some
> say it all had happened in AD 70 when the Roman General Titus burned
> Jerusalem and the temple. Others believe that the great tribulation has
> been going on since the first century. Let's see what the Bible says.
>
>
>
> THE TRIBULATION
>
>
>
> The Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24 and 25 gives us the certainty
> we are looking for. The disciples asked Jesus, "Tell us, when shall these
> things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the
> world?" Here it is clear that it is about the end of the age that the
> disciples were asking about. The Tribulation, then, is that short period
of
> time - seven years - that immediately precedes the "end of the world," or
> age.
>
>
>
> The Lord gave the general course of events in the world from His time to
> the end of this age. He enumerated a series of prophesied occurrences
which
> have characterised the world. False teachers, wars, famines, pestilences,
> and earthquakes spoken of in Matt. 24:4-7 have been happening since our
> Savior uttered those words, only with increased intensities in the last
> century.
>
>
>
> Persecutions described in verses 9-13, as applied to Christians, began
> almost immediately after the establishment of the Church on Pentecost. The
> fulfillment of this part of the Olivet Prophecy is well documented (I have
> my copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs), and will no doubt continue with
> increased severity in the near future.
>
>
>
> Matthew 24:14 has a double reference. In line with the great commission
> in 28:19,20 this prophecy refers first to the Church preaching the gospel
of
> salvation to the world, beginning in Jerusalem (Acts 1:8). Secondly, it
> refers to the powerful preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom during the
> Tribulation Period to be carried out by the 144,000 Jewish evangelists
(Rev.
> 7:3,4) and by the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:3). The end will come, Christ
> says, only after the gospel of the Kingdom has been preached in all the
> world. The exact fulfillment of this particular prophecy will come only
> during the Tribulation, when once again, the focus of God will be on the
> Jews' part in proclaiming the promised Kingdom of God to be established
> literally on earth.
>
>
>
> Some contend that there will be no literal Kingdom of God, also known as
> the Millennium (Rev.20:1-6). But they are mistaken. Acts 1:6 says, "When
> they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt
> thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" We should
remember
> that Jesus had been with His disciples for forty days after His
> resurrection, "speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"
> (Acts 1:3). The fact that they asked the Lord about "the kingdom" points
to
> Him having taught them about it. Notice that He did not censure the
> disciples' query. He did not say, "who says there's going to be a literal
> Kingdom of God on earth?" Instead, He answered, "It is not for you to know
> the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
(verse
> 7). But I have digressed. our concern for the moment is to pin down the
> Tribulation. Then we will determine, from the word of God, when the Rapture
> is going to happen in relation to the Tribulation.
>
>
>
> A UNIQUE PERIOD OF TIME
>
>
>
> Matthew 24:15-28 deals with the Great Tribulation. Notice in particular
> verses 21 and 22. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
> since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And
> except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but
> for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The Tribulation will
> be a unique period of time in world history. Nothing that has gone before
> is like it. This proves that the preterists' belief that the prophecies of
> Matthew 24 had all been fulfilled in AD 70 is wrong. Hitler's Holocaust
was
> greater than AD 70 in the number of Jews killed. And Christ foretold that
> the Tribulation will be greater than the Holocaust! Not only for the Jews,
> but this time the whole world will be affected by the coming judgment from
> God.
>
>
>
> I don't want to sound like a doomsday prophet, but if we are going to be
> realistic about it, we can't help but conclude this world as it is is not
> facing the best of times. Somehow we can feel that something ominous is
> going to descend upon us all. Recently, I watched a news item on
television
> about Russia testing her 1991 missiles "for future use." The Middle East
> continues to be volatile like a tinder box ready to explode anytime;
> violence there has not stopped. Iran is very vocal about her intentions.
> But global war is not the only threat to world stability. The weather
> pattern worldwide has gone awry, with more than the normal number of strong
> typhoons, tornadoes, hurricanes. Depletion of ozone gas layer continues
> unabated, with impending dire consequences to all life on the planet.
> Earthquakes, as prophesied by the Lord, are occurring "in divers places."
> The December 26, 2004 earthquake-generated tsunami that hit south Asia and
> part of east Africa is a specific fulfillment of His prophecy - ".upon the
> earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
> Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things
which
> are coming on the earth." (Luke 21:25,26). I have always believed that
this
> prophecy will come to pass inside the Tribulation Period. Now I have to
> adjust a little bit. No doubt the full fury of tsunamis are yet to come,
> but the December 26 catastrophe serves to warn the world of the soon-coming
> judgment of God, and at the same time to awaken a sleeping Church, asleep
to
> prophecy (Luke 18:8 ; Matt. 25:5).
>
>
>
> For clarity and for specific signification we will call the last seven
> years of this world the Tribulation, and the second half of that period -
> the last three and a half years - the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21).
This
> brings us to the book of Daniel. We will return to the Olivet Discourse
> later.
>
>
>
> DANIEL'S 70 -WEEK PROPHECY
>
>
>
> Here is the explanation why the Tribulation will last seven years, after
> which Christ will come in power and great glory. It is in Daniel 9:24-27.
>
>
>
> The prophet Daniel was given by God a prophecy on the nation Israel and
> its capital city Jerusalem about 530 BC. The prophet had been confessing
> Israel's sins and his own when the angel Gabriel delivered to him probably
> the most amazing prophecy in the Bible, the prophecy of the "Seventy
Weeks."
>
>
>
> "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to
> finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
> reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
> to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy" (Dan.
> 9:24). Seventy weeks of years is meant here, or 490 Biblical years of 360
> days a year. We know that the first half of the verse was fulfilled by
> Christ at His first coming almost two thousand years ago - "to finish the
> transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for
> iniquity." The other half He will fulfill at His Second Coming.
>
>
>
> "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
> commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
> shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be
> built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after three score
> and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" (verses 25,
> 26a). Nehemiah testified (Nehemiah 2:1-8) that the proclamation by Persian
> King Artaxerxes Longimanus to rebuild Jerusalem came out on Nisan 1, 445
BC,
> calculated by the Royal Observatory, Greenwich to be March 14, 445 BC.
> Sixty nine weeks, or 483 years (i.e., 173,880 days) from March 14, 445 BC
> would bring us to April 6, AD 32, the exact day when Jesus Christ was
> presented to the Jews as their Messiah (Luke 19:36-44). (This is based on
> the computations made by Sir Robert Anderson in his Christological
> interpretation of the 70-Week Prophecy.) The exact timing of His triumphal
> entry into Jerusalem is a proof of His Messiahship. Had he entered
Jerusalem
> sooner or later, it would mean He was not the "Messiah the Prince." Here
we
> have an example of how exact and reliable Bible prophecies are. We can
> therefore be sure that the specific prophecies that refer to our time will
> come to pass precisely as written in the Holy Scriptures (1 Pet. 1:19-21).
>
>
>
> Just as the angel Gabriel predicted, the Messiah was "cut off," that is,
> slain - crucified - after the 69 weeks of years had expired, not for
Himself
> but for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16). It happened within five
> days. Then what?
>
>
>
> "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and
> the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end
> of the war desolations are determined" (Dan. 9:26b). This was fulfilled in
> AD 70 when the Romans under Titus burned Jerusalem and the temple. Thirty
> seven years had passed since AD 32 before verse 26b was fulfilled,
therefore
> it is obvious that the last week of the Seventy-Week-Prophecy - or the last
> seven years - cannot have been fulfilled at that time. God's time clock
for
> Israel must have stopped at the close of the 69 weeks in AD 32. Yet the
> prophecy must fulfill all of the 70 weeks.
>
>
>
> The 70th Week: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one
> week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the
> oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make
> it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be
> poured upon the desolate" (verse 27). Who is "he" that shall confirm a
> covenant with many for one week? Here is an error in interpretation made
by
> some. It is supposed that "he" is the Messiah accomplishing His ministry
> for seven years but was killed "in the midst of the week." It is believed
> that God's time clock for the Seventy Weeks stopped at the Crucifixion and
> will re-start at the Second Coming, and the Messiah will preach again for
> another three and a half years. That there is a Prophetic Gap of about
2000
> years after the 69 weeks is seen correctly. But the interpretation is
> wrong. For one thing, and this is important, the antecedent of "he" is
> misplaced. And the "covenant" is misunderstood. The whole seventieth week
> is wrongly interpreted to be the Messiah's preaching ministry to the Jews.
>
>
>
> Who, then, is "he" and what is the "covenant"? The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is
> none other than "the prince that shall come" mentioned in verse 26. Bible
> expositors agree that he is the end-time Antichrist. He is the Beast from
> the sea (Rev. 13) and the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8. He is referred to
by
> Christ in John 5:43, ".if another shall come in his own name, him ye will
> receive." This coming personal Antichrist will be accepted by the Jews as
> their messiah. When this powerful man appears on the world scene he will
> make a "covenant" - or a treaty - with many for seven years. The "many"
> refers to the nation of Israel and other nations. Since Jerusalem, in the
> last days, will become "a cup of trembling. a burdensome stone for all
> people" (Zech. 12:2,3), the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 must be a
> peace settlement for Jerusalem and the whole Middle East. The man who will
> be able to bring about peace in the region will be looked up to by the
> whole world as a hero, in fact more than a hero - he will be worshipped
> (Rev. 13:3,4,8). But after three and a half years from the signing of the
> treaty - "in the midst of the week"- his true colors will come out. He
will
> break the formal agreement with the Jews and will enter the rebuilt temple
> in Jerusalem, causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and proclaim
> that he is God (2 Thess. 2:4)! Why, he is also "that man of sin. the son
of
> perdition" (verse 3).
>
>
>
> We have seen that the 70th Week of Daniel 9:24-27 is yet to come. God's
> prophetic time clock for His plan for the Jews and for the establishment of
> the Kingdom stopped on April 6, AD 32, when the Messiah was formally
> rejected by the Jews (John 1:11). Within two months the Church was
> inaugurated on the day of Pentecost (John 1:12.13 ; Acts 2). We are right
> now in the closing days of the Prophetic Gap between the 69 Weeks and the
> 70th Week. The last seven years to complete the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27
> are being held in abeyance by the presence of the Church of God on earth (2
> Thess. 2:6-8). The Church, because it will no longer have role on the
earth
> during that time (Rom. 11:25), will be raptured to heaven shortly before
the
> 70th Week sets in.
>
>
>
> We are now ready, in this article, to appreciate the scriptural proofs
for
> a preTribulation Rapture of the Church. But before that, let me get back
to
> the Tribulation which corresponds to the 70th Week.
>
>
>
> THE TRIBULATION DESCRIBED
>
>
>
> The following scriptures give other names for the impending Tribulation
> that will engulf this unsuspecting world:
>
>
>
> "Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a
> destruction from the Almighty. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel
> both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall
> destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Therefore I will shake the heavens,
> and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of
> hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger" (Isaiah 13:6,9,13).
>
>
>
> "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the
time
> of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (Jer. 30:7).
>
>
>
> "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed
> till the time of the end" (Dan.12:9).
>
>
>
> "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
> (Rev.6:17)
>
>
>
> ".Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come;
> and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains
> of waters" (Rev. 14:7).
>
>
>
> "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it
> be in the end of the world" (Matt. 13:40).
>
>
>
> "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about
> thee; hide thy self as it were for a little moment, until the indignation
be
> overpast. For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury
> upon all their armies." (Isaiah 26:20 ; 34:2).
>
>
>
> "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth
> for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time trouble, such as
> never was since there was a nation even to that same time." (Dan. 12:1).
>
>
>
> 1. "AS THE DAYS OF NOE WERE. . ."
>
>
>
> Proof number one for a preTribulation Rapture of the Church is in the
> Olivet Discourse itself. I never realised it before but it is now clear to
> me.
>
>
>
> "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
> darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall
> from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall
> appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes
> of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
> of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:29,30). This is the
> glorious Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is plain that He will come
after
> the Tribulation. Verse 31, at first glance, is the strongest proof for a
> postTribulation Rapture: "And he shall send his angels with a great shout
of
> a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
> from one end of heaven to the other."
>
>
>
> Now, where is the preTrib Rapture there, you might say. It's so plain
> that Christ, as He descends from heaven, uses His angels to rapture the
> Church at His Second Coming. How could you explain that away in order to
> push a preTrib Rapture?
>
>
>
> Before further explanation, let me go forward in Matthew 24. "But of
that
> day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father
> only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of
> man be" (vv. 36,37). Two facts can be gathered here: 1) The day or the
> hour of Christ's coming cannot be known by any man, and 2) His coming is
> compared to the days of Noah. We don't have to guess what the days of Noah
> were like, for the next verses say, the Lord speaking, "For as in the days
> that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and
> giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew
> not until the flood came, and took them all away; SO SHALL THE COMING OF
THE
> SON OF MAN BE" (vv. 38,39).
>
>
>
> "The coming of the Son of man" in verses 37 and 39 refers to the first
> stage of the Second Advent, that is, Christ coming to rapture the Church to
> heaven before the Tribulation begins, as promised in John 14:2,3.
>
>
>
> A) Our Lord enumerated the signs that would precede His Second Coming,
> including cataclysmic occurrences such as international conflicts, famines,
> pestilences, and earthquakes. And He gave the specific sign of the
> "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet." When people
> see these signs happening they should be sure the Second Coming is near, in
> fact, only three and a half years away from the Abomination of Desolation.
> "So likewise ye, when ye shall see these things, know that it is near, even
> at the doors" (v. 33).
>
>
>
> But Jesus also says, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as
> ye think not the Son of man cometh" (v. 44). How can these His seemingly
> contradictory statements be reconciled? Surely, Christ will not contradict
> Himself! In one verse He says watch for signs of His coming; a few verses
> later He warns us to be ready, for there is no specific sign of His coming.
>
>
>
> We are therefore forced to conclude that our Savior must be talking about
> two distinct and separate events. There must be two future Comings. The
> first one requires no specific sign to watch before it occurs; the other
> will be preceded by so many signs. In other words, first He comes to
> rapture His Church. Then seven years later (refer back to the 70-Week
> Prophecy) He comes to end the Great Tribulation (v. 22) and rescue the Jews
> at Armageddon (Rev.19).
>
>
>
> B) The Rapture cannot be postTribulational because just like in days of
> Noah it will be "business as usual" in the world just before "the coming of
> the Son of man" (v. 39) - "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in
> marriage." That is hardly the situation during the Great Tribulation, when
> hundreds of millions will die from wars, famines, etc. If we go by the
book
> of Revelation BILLIONS will have already died by the end of the Great
> Tribulation; the days of Noah were not like that before he and his family
> were taken into the ark. If Jesus is coming at a time similar to the days
> of Noah when the world is relatively peaceful this coming must occur before
> the Tribulation. Therefore, He is coming for the Church at that time - the
> first phase of His "parousia."
>
>
>
> C) The Second Coming in glory can be pinpointed to the day by believers
> who will be alive during the Tribulation. How? By simply counting days
> from the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and referring to
Daniel
> 12:11,12. But the Coming discussed in Matthew 24:36-44 will be sudden and
> unexpected. This "coming of the Son of man" cannot be the one that is
> referred to in verse 30, where it is stated that all the tribes of the
earth
> will finally see the Son of man after a series of signs have happened.
>
>
>
> D) "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the
other
> left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and
> the other left" (vv. 40,41). These verses immediately follow the Noachic
> comparison. People are "taken" - raptured - before the time of global
> cataclysm suddenly comes on the whole world. This is a preTribulation
> taking-away of Christians to heaven (John 14:2,3).
>
>
>
> Now concerning the gathering of "the elect" Matthew 24:30, 31 does not
> substantiate a postTribulation Rapture of the Church, contrary to what many
> believe. When the Second Coming occurs Jesus Christ comes down to earth
> with His saints from heaven; the saints will have been in heaven for seven
> years by that time (Zech. 14:5 ; Jude 14 ; Col. 3:4 ; 1 Thess. 3:13 ; 4:14
;
> Rev. 19:14). The Church, the Bride of the Lamb, is already in heaven when
> the Lord returns to earth in glory (Rev. 19:7-9). Wherever the Husband
goes
> there goes His Wife.
>
>
>
> Who, then, are the "elect" whom the angels will gather from the four
> winds? Mark 13:27 makes it clearer; "And then shall he send his angels,
and
> shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost
part
> of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The Bible does not leave us
> in the dark as to who God's "elect'' are. In Isaiah 45:4 God is quoted as
> saying, "For Jacob my servant's sake and ISRAEL mine elect. . . ."
> Therefore, it is the remnant of Israel in the last days who are the "elect"
> that will be gathered from around the globe when Christ begins to establish
> His Kingdom in the Millennium. It is thus prophesied by God in Isaiah,
"And
> I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my
> mountains; and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell
> there" (65:9). Ezekiel sheds more light: "As I live, saith the Lord GOD,
> surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury
> poured out, will I rule over you" (Ezek. 20:33). The language strongly
> indicates that the fulfillment of this prophecy is shortly after the
> Tribulation.
>
>
>
> Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 are enlarged upon by the following verses
> from Ezekiel: "And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather
you
> out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with
> a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into
> the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
> Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt,
> so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass
> under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I
> will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against
> me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they
> shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the
> LORD" (vv. 34-38).
>
>
>
> The gathering of the elect at the Second Coming will also include the
> resurrection of Old Testament saints, as strongly indicated in Daniel
> 12:1,2. The first resurrection and the translation of living Christians at
> the Rapture will include only the Bride of Christ, that is, the Church.
> Notice 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - "For the Lord himself shall descend from
> heaven.and the dead in Christ shall rise first." But the gathering of the
> elect ISRAELITES, including the dead Old Testament saints, will happen at
> the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation; they will be gathered
> together "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
> uttermost part of heaven," the remnant from every corner of the earth, and
> the dead Israelite saints from heaven where their spirits will be brought
> from.
>
>
>
> 2. A RAPTURE LESSON FROM THE THESSALONIANS
>
>
>
> The apostle Paul's letters to the Thessalonians were his earliest. He is
> said to have spent only four weeks in Thessalonica on his second missionary
> journey. Within one month he had taught a number of important doctrines to
> the Thessalonians, including the Rapture. The Rapture is mentioned in
every
> chapter of the first letter (1 Thess. 1:10 ; 2:19,20 : 3:12,13 ; 4:13-18 ;
> 5:1-11). But our concern under this heading is the Rapture lesson
contained
> in Second Thessalonians.
>
>
>
> It is unfortunate that many Christians today do not believe that Christ
> will return for the Church before the Tribulation. In fact, many are not
> anymore waiting for Christ's return; they say we are now in the Millennium,
> that it may take thousands of years from now before the Judgment Day comes.
> They are called amillennialists. I've heard of their "Kingdom Now"
theology.
> I just wonder how they can locate the Kingdom in this present evil world.
I
> guess Augustine of Hippo is the original culprit. As for the postTrib
> premillennialists, however, it seems to me that they would rather have
Jesus
> return for them after the Tribulation. Are they too curious about
> Tribulation events and therefore they want to see them with their own eyes?
> Maybe they just don't see the light yet. What amazes me more is that some,
> seeing the scriptural proofs for a preTribulation Rapture, still have a
hard
> time accepting it. A case of "doctrinal inertia," I suppose, if not a
> display of unbelief. But I check myself - 1 Corinthians 4:5 says, ".judge
> nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light
> the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the
> hearts.."
>
>
>
> Choices of various beliefs regarding the Rapture were simply not
available
> during apostolic times. The early Church held only the preTribulation
> Rapture preparatory to premillennial Second Coming, as taught by the
apostle
> Paul. Only in the fourth century did the churches begin to abandon the
> belief when prophecy began to be interpreted allegorically, and
> Amillennialism gained acceptance through the influential teachings of
> Augustine.
>
>
>
> The converts in Thessalonica believed in a preTrib Rapture. Second
> Thessalonians was occasioned by their being "shaken in mind.troubled. that
> the day of the Lord is now present" (2:2, correct translation). Paul wrote
> in order to assure them that the rumor that the Day of the Lord had begun
> was just that, a rumor. Chapter 2:1,2 presents the theme of the letter:
> "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
> by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or
> be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
> that the day of the Lord is now present." Probably a forged letter was
> circulating, stating that they were now inside the Tribulation; and that
the
> persecutions they were experiencing at the hand of their enemies were part
> of the fulfillment of the prophecies. But the persecutions and hardships
> were not the cause of their being "shaken" and "troubled." They were
> greatly agitated and disturbed because they thought they were LEFT BEHIND!
> They knew that if they were now inside the Tribulation - the 70th Week -
the
> Rapture must have already occurred. And what were they doing on earth? They
> were therefore very afraid - frightened - maybe they were left behind
> because of some sin on their part, and now they were about to face the
> Antichrist and endure the Tribulation.
>
>
>
> Think about it. If Paul had taught the Thessalonians a postTrib Rapture
> why would they be shaken in mind to find themselves in the Tribulation?
> Instead of being troubled they would rejoice in the realisation that the
> Rapture was now only seven years away; what they had to do now was to
> prepare some civil defense and wait for the Second Coming. But that was
not
> the case. The Thessalonian converts were fearful because they were taught
> by the apostle that before the Tribulation would begin the Rapture must
come
> first to deliver them "from the wrath to come" (1Thess. 1:10). But here
> they were, supposedly caught in the middle of the Tribulation, and their
> feet literally still on the ground; they had not been "caught up." That's
> why they were confounded.
>
>
>
> As hinted above, the confusion about the timing of the Rapture in the
> Second Thessalonians has resulted from a mistranslation - "that the day of
> Christ is at hand" (2:2). Paul would not caution them against the day of
> Christ being at hand. Why, he believed so. He taught an imminent coming
of
> Christ for the Church (1 Cor. 15:51,52). He was saying in effect to the
> faithful Thessalonians, "Don't you worry, don't believe the detractors, we
> are not yet in the Tribulation Period. Didn't I tell you that the Rapture
> must come first? At the Rapture we shall ALL be included. If all the
> immature Corinthians will be raptured, you can be sure you will be. Some
> things must first occur in the world before the day of the Lord can begin.
> And you will not be present on earth to witness the full manifestation of
> those things. As I taught you before, RAPTURE FIRST."
>
>
>
> The apostle Paul was reassuring the brethren that the Rapture was still
> future though imminent. Why, he himself was still there. He who was one
of
> the two apostles to whom the mystery of the Rapture was revealed (along
with
> John). The fact that Paul was not yet raptured was proof enough to the
> Thessalonians that the "snatching away" had not yet occurred. But he went
> on to unveil something more:
>
>
>
> 3. THE RESTRAINER TAKEN AWAY MEANS THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED
>
>
>
> Second Thessalonians 2:3 : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
> day" - the Day of the Lord, verse 2 - "shall not come, except there come a
> falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
> The apostasy in the churches was already underway even during Paul's time,
> "for the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 8a). It was to
> intensify until the whole world would have totally abandoned God's truth
> (Matt. 24:11 ; 2 Tim. 4:3). Right now "the whole world lieth in
wickedness"
> (1 John 5:19), but just before the start of the Tribulation and about the
> time of the Rapture the world and professing Christendom will have
committed
> the Great Apostasy, having "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
> unrighteousness" (2 Thess. 2:12b). Side by side with the Great Apostasy is
> the rise of the Antichrist.
>
>
>
> But the other event to occur before the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation
> being the first short part of the Day of the Lord) is the RAPTURE ITSELF.
> The Antichrist will not be revealed unless his Restrainer is finished with
> the work of restraining. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
> only he who now letteth" - or restrains - "will let, until he be taken out
> of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:7, 8a).
> The restrainer of the Antichrist is the Holy Spirit. Nothing and nobody in
> the world can do the job of restraining Satan, who is the force behind the
> Antichrist. The Holy Spirit has been doing the work of a restrainer since
> the days of the apostle Paul. Only an omnipotent, omniscient, and
> omnipresent Being can do that. When the Holy Spirit, in His capacity as
the
> Restrainer, is "taken out of the way," then the Antichrist will be free to
> reveal himself, for God will now allow it. Now, the "taking out of the
way"
> of the Restrainer from the world scene is the same as saying that the
Church
> is raptured - taken away from the earth - because the Holy Spirit works
> primarily through the Church in controlling the outbreak of apostasy in the
> professing Christendom and in the world.
>
>
>
> When the Church is taken away, then the Great Apostasy will be complete
> and the Antichrist will reign supreme over the whole world.
>
> 4. THE RAPTURE IS "THAT BLESSED HOPE"
>
>
>
> ". denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
> righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed
> hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus
> Christ" (Titus 2:12,13). It is assumed by many that this passage is
> referring only to the glorious Second Coming. I've read the book, "The
> Blessed Hope," written by postTribulationist George Ladd. He put forth
> Titus 2:13 as a proof text for a postTrib Rapture. But the syntax
> contradicts that position. Look at that. "Looking for that blessed
> hope," - one event, that is, the Rapture, - "and the glorious appearing
> of . Jesus Christ,' another event. They are two distinct events, separated
> by seven years of Tribulation.
>
>
>
> Why is the Rapture called the "blessed hope" of the Christian? The
answer
> is in 1 John 3:2,3, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
> yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we
> shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath
> this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." The first and
> primary purpose of the Rapture is to change us completely. "For our
> citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior,
> the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be
> conformed to His glorious body." (Phil. 3:20,21 New King James Version).
> The Rapture is the time when the living and dead Christians are finally
> given their spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:51-54). No wonder it is called the
> Blessed Hope.
>
>
>
> But there is a secondary reason why the Rapture is "that blessed hope."
>
>
>
> 5. THE RAPTURE DELIVERS US FROM THE TRIBULATION
>
>
>
> The Rapture of the Church can hardly be called a "hope" - or at least its
> being a hope is tarnished - if it comes after the Tribulation. Imagine it.
> If the Rapture is postTrib, how can one be hopeful when he knows he is to
> undergo the difficulties of the Tribulation? In all likelihood he may even
> face martyrdom. The Antichrist will have open opportunity of killing the
> saints, as revealed by Jesus, Daniel, John, and others. The Rapture is
> somewhat "spoiled" if it is postTribulational. Happily, that is not the
> case. God promises to deliver His children prior to the Tribulation by
> transporting them to heaven. Consider the following:
>
>
>
> A) ". to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
even
> Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1Thess. 1:10). "For God
> hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
> Christ" (5:9). The wrath to come is the Tribulation, exhaustively
described
> in Revelation 6 - 18. By the time the First Horseman rides (Rev.6:1) the
> Church (Rev. 2 & 3) will have been transported to heaven (Rev. 4:1).
>
>
>
> B) Christ to the Church: "Because thou hast kept the word of my
patience,
> I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which will come upon all
> the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). This is a
> promise from Jesus to the faithful in Philadelphia. We know that
> Philadelphia is an end-time Church, the sixth of the seven Churches. The
> Philadelphian Era of God's Church covers the period from about 1750 to
> Rapture. God's promise is clear-cut - "I. will keep thee from the hour of
> temptation," - or the time of trial - "which shall come upon all the
world."
> "The hour" refers to the short period of seven years when God's righteous
> judgments will be poured out on sinning mankind. How can anyone mistake
the
> meaning of that scripture? God will deliver the Church from the
> Tribulation. And the means is by transporting her to heaven: "Come up
> hither." (4:1).
>
>
>
> C) In 2 Peter 2:4-10 the apostle spoke of "judgment" on the world of
the
> ungodly during the days of Noah and Lot, wherein God saved the just from
the
> outpouring of judgment, for "the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out
> of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be
> punished" (v. 9). The conclusion that we can derive here is that God will
> deliver His own - the godly - before He allows the global "day of
> judgment" - the Tribulation - to begin, just as He did to Noah and Lot. We
> are therefore assured that the Church will not go through the coming
> Tribulation. God's promise will never fail. We are expected to believe
> that; can we do otherwise?
>
>
>
> However, some argue that if God will keep us from the troubles ahead it
> would not be fair to the countless thousands who died from martyrdom
> throughout the centuries, and they presume that there's no reason why we
> should escape the same fate. Sort of a sado-macho thinking, not
scriptural.
> Who are we to question God? "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do
> right?" (Gen. 18:25b) God is just, no question about that. We ought to
> be thankful that we have the additional blessing of protection from the
> Wrath to Come by divine "summons" to heaven at the Rapture.
>
>
>
> 6. THE DOCTRINE OF IMMINENCE
>
>
>
> The noted Bible scholar William Barclay commented that the apostle Paul
> was wrong when he proclaimed, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
> changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the
> trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
> shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51,52). Barclay stated positively that Paul
> made a mistake in believing that Christ could come in his day. "The wise
> are not always right" - pointing to Barclay, not to the apostle. But, was
> Paul wrong in believing that the Lord's coming for the Church was imminent?
> Of course not. Christ could have come in the first century. Remember,
> there was no specific sign given the Church to signal the approach of the
> Rapture. Christ simply promised, "I will come again, and receive you unto
> myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Time and again
> the Lord warned the disciples to be ever ready, for He could come anytime
> (Luke 12:34-40 ; 21:34-36 ; Mark 13:32-37 : Matt. 24:36-44).
>
>
>
> Against the Doctrine of Imminence the argument is advanced that Christ
> could not come unless world condition has deteriorated to the point when it
> is possible for mankind to obliterate himself from off the face of the
> earth, as prophesied by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:21, 22, and that that
> time came only after almost two thousand years. I believe this argument
> does not destroy imminency of Christ's coming for the Church. Remember the
> Tower of Babel. God Himself does not underestimate man. "And the LORD
> said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this
> they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they
> have imagined to do" (Gen. 11:6). As we have seen, only the Restrainer has
> been hindering the Antichrist from becoming active on the world scene. Had
> God decided to take away the Restrainer any time from apostolic times,
world
> condition could have come to where it is right now by the "genius" of man;
> nothing could have hindered him from rapidly developing ways and means of
> destroying himself within a seven-year period. Once the 70th Week had
> begun, all the prophecies that pertain to the period must come to pass,
> regardless of when within the last twenty centuries it began. Right now we
> are exactly in that situation; therefore the Rapture is more imminent now
> than ever.
>
>
>
> This is a strong proof for the correctness of the "rapture theory." The
> Doctrine of Imminence can only be applied to the preTrib Rapture, which
will
> happen unexpectedly like an operation of a thief in the night. A thief
does
> not give signs to his potential victims. The Rapture, being imminent,
> requires no signs. It will come at an hour when people of the world -
> including many Christians - least expect it. Imminency cannot refer to the
> glorious Second Coming because this coming of Jesus Christ will be preceded
> by specific signs for which He told His disciples to watch.
>
>
>
> Of the two stages of the Second Advent only the first - the Rapture of
the
> Church - is imminent. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John talked imminence.
> Therefore, the doctrine of an Imminent Rapture is true. Otherwise, Jesus
> and His apostles were liars.
>
>
>
> 7. THE BOOK OF REVELATION PORTRAYS IT
>
>
>
> Although I think that the foregoing logical, scriptural proofs of the
> preTrib Rapture are unassailable enough, I offer here, last, the most
> concrete evidence - the book of Revelation.
>
>
>
> The book of Revelation is not as mysterious as is commonly supposed.
> "Apocalupsis" is an unveiling. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1:1),
> meaning, it is a book about the person of Jesus - His Deity - His
testimony,
> and about His Second Coming and the events thereafter. The future events
> leading to the setting up of the Kingdom are set forth in the book in
> explicit details.
>
>
>
> Of all the books of the Bible only the Revelation has a special blessing
> for its readers: "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words
> of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the
> time is at hand" (1:3). There, again, is imminency. The blessing is
> reiterated near the end of the book, "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he
> that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book" (22:7).
>
>
>
> Revelation was written by the apostle John about the year AD 96. This
> fact alone should dispose of the claims of preterists that the events
> mentioned in the book up to chapter 19 refer to the destruction of
Jerusalem
> in AD 70. I follow the futuristic interpretation of the book, as well as
> the literal. Literal interpretation allows for allegorical or symbolic
> interpretation when the text and contexts dictate it. But otherwise we
take
> the primary, common-sense, ordinary, and literal meaning of the words used
> by John, and the other biblical writers for that matter.
>
>
>
> From the fourth century Augustine has dominated the theological thinking
> of the churches. His teachings have continued to be the basis of the
> amillennial approach to prophecy only because of the allegorical method of
> interpretation. We cannot begin to realise the damage this has inflicted
to
> professing Christendom and to the world in general. (Anti-Semitism, for
> example, can be traced to it.) Spiritualising the Revelation caused
> uncounted souls to disbelieve in the coming millennial Kingdom of God.
They
> also spiritualised away God's judgmental warning in 22:18,19 - "For I
> testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
> if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues
> that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the
> words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the
> book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are
> written in this book." Actually, I cannot conceive how anyone can
interpret
> that in any way except literally. Of course, the phrase "take away from
the
> words of the book of this prophecy" does not mean to literally print our
own
> copy of Revelation in which words have been edited out, or to cut off parts
> of the last pages of our Bibles. The plain meaning of "take away" must be
> disbelieving what the words are saying in plain language. For instance:
> Amillennialists would say that the Millennium is mentioned only in
> Revelation 20:1-7, therefore it is not true that there will be a
Millennium.
> That is taking away from the words of the book of Revelation. We had
better
> take warning. There is no doubt that the "God, that cannot lie" (Titus
1:2)
> means what He says and says what He means. It is a fearful thing to
> knowingly reject revelation.
>
>
>
> If we will follow the flow of events described in Revelation we can see
> clearly that the Rapture of the Church is preTribulational. The outline of
> the book is presented in chapter 1 verse 19: "Write the things which thou
> hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be
> hereafter." Thus the book is divided into three parts - 1) the things which
> thou hast seen, 2) the things which are, and 3) the things which shall be
> hereafter. "Hereafter" is meta tauta in Greek. This is significant for
> locating the timing of the Rapture in the book of Revelation. We'll see
> later why. This little lesson in Greek I owe to Chuck Smith.
>
>
>
>
>
> A) THE RAPTURE ENDS THE CHURCH AGE, USHERS IN
>
> THE TRIBULATION HOUR
>
>
>
> The term "Tribulation Hour" is taken from Revelation 3:10: "Because thou
> hast kept the
>
> word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
> which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the
earth."
> Another lesson from Greek here is that the preposition "from" - "from the
> hour of temptation" - is ek, which means out of. The Philadelphian
> faithful, as well as all the faithful remnant from Thyatira down to
> Laodicea, are promised escape out of the time of the Tribulation, not
> through it. In other words, they will be evacuated from the earth just
> before the Tribulation begins.
>
>
>
> "The things which thou hast seen" refers to John's vision of
> Christ (1:8-20). "The things which are" are the messages to the seven
> Churches (chapters 2 and 3), which corresponds to the whole Church Age.
> "And the things which shall be hereafter" refers to the Tribulation Hour
and
> thereafter (chapters 4 to 22).
>
>
>
> Revelation 2 and 3 spans the Church Age from Pentecost to
> Rapture. Revelation 4:1 is the point in the panorama of events when the
> Church is raptured. Notice: "AFTER THIS." After what? Of course, after
> the Church Age described in chapters 2 and 3. It's the same meta tauta in
> 1:19. "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
> the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
> which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be
> hereafter." Here is a double meta tauta, so that the readers of Revelation
> will not mistake that from here on they will be reading of events future
> from the Rapture, that is, "after these Church things."
>
>
>
> In vision John is taken up to heaven. He is the representative
> of the Church being raptured to heaven at the close of the Church Age and
> prior to the start of the Tribulation. The language of Revelation 4:1 is
> very much similar to the Rapture text of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. People
> who contend that the Thessalonian scripture refers to Christ's Coming in
> glory are simply mistaken. Notice that the event described is a meeting
"in
> the air." We do not right then and there descend on the Mount of Olives.
> Instead we go up to heaven - "Come up hither," Christ says. We return to
> earth with the Lord of Lords and King of kings seven years later (Rev. 19),
> after the Tribulation Hour described in chapters 6 through 18 is finished
> (The book was written chronologically, with some flashbacks or interludes,
> or parentheses).
>
>
>
> The command "come up hither," as can be seen in context, means
> coming into heaven. We know that the Two Witnesses will be raptured to
> heaven: "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up
> hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld
> them" (11:12). Likewise, the Church, when the time comes, will be
commanded,
> "Come up hither"! (4:1)
>
>
>
> B) THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN WHILE ON EARTH TRIBULATION RAGES ON
>
>
> Chapters 4 and 5 portrays to us what will happen when we get to
> heaven at the Rapture. Don't we look forward to that? I understand that
> some sincere and godly people are repulsed by the idea of going to heaven.
> For so many years we have been bombarded by the unorthodox and
> "iconoclastic" teaching, "Nobody will go to heaven!" What a tragedy; we
> were virtually taught not to believe the Bible, because the Bible does
teach
> people can go to heaven. It was Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda
> minister, who once said that when a lie is constantly repeated long enough
> people will tend to believe it. Something similar has happened to our view
> of heaven. Partly because of not taking the words of the Bible literally
we
> have been misled into believing that humans do not go to heaven. And,
> perhaps, out of a desire to be different from apostate Christianity, we
were
> only too willing to believe that no one is going to heaven.
>
>
>
> Let me cite right now just one scripture that proves humans,
> indeed, go to heaven, right from within the Rapture Text: "For if we
> believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in
> Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM" (1 Thess. 4:14). Whether that means God
will
> bring the dead Christians with Jesus to heaven or from heaven is not
> important just now. The point is, people do enter heaven because Jesus
> ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
>
>
>
> What's more, the Revelation pictures the Church in heaven
> praising God after the Rapture in 4:1. John saw in vision the glory of
God.
> "And round about the throne were four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in
> white raiment,; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (v. 4). I
> believe these twenty-four elders are humans, not angels, for angels are
> never crowned. The Judgment for rewards must have been finished at this
> point in time because they have already been rewarded with crowns (cf.
James
> 1:12 ; 1 Pet. 5:4). "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to
> take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
> redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
> people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and
we
> shall reign on the earth" (5:9,10). The redeemed, who are raptured to
> heaven by this time, are looking forward to Christ's return to earth when
> they, with Him, will begin to reign. How clear!
>
>
>
> While the Church is in heaven worshipping God, down on earth
the
> Tribulation rages on. It is graphically described in chapters 6 to 18.
>
>
>
>
>
> C) AFTER THE TRIBULATON CHRIST RETURNS WITH HIS CHURCH
>
>
> "After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven,
> saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory and honour, and power, unto the Lord
> our God" (19:1). The Marriage of the Lamb with His Wife, the Church, is
> made in heaven (vv. 7,8), but the wedding feast and honeymoon will be on
> earth and will last a thousand years (ch. 20). But first the Bridegroom
and
> the Bride have to destroy their enemies: "And I saw heaven opened." Twice
> in Revelation the door of heaven is opened. First, in 4:1, to receive the
> Church at the Rapture. Second, to let Christ and His Church - now His
> Wife - return to earth. ".and behold, a white horse; and he that sat upon
> him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and
> make war." (At the Rapture the Lord will not be riding a white horse, Acts
> 1:9-11.) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
> horses clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth
a
> sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule
> them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness
and
> wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name
> written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (19:11, 14-16). This is the
> Second Coming of Jesus Christ in power and great glory. He comes with His
> Wife the Church. No wonder Jude says, ".Behold, the Lord cometh with ten
> thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all." (Jude 14,15).
>
>
>
> After the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25:31-46) the Millennial Reign
> will begin. The
>
> Lord will not be alone ruling the world, for "we shall reign on the
earth"
> (Rev. 5:10). "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17b).
>
>
>
>
>
> D) MORE RAPTURE PROOFS FROM THE REVELATION
>
>
> For those who can't see the Rapture in chapter 4 verse 1, I challenge
them
> to look for the
>
> Church on earth during the Tribulation. Remember, the Tribulation period
> corresponds to chapters 6 through 18. I know that postTribulationists will
> be quick to point to the "woman" of Revelation 12. Let's look at that.
> "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,
> and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"
> (12:1).
>
>
>
> Just because the great false religious system of the Tribulation is
called
> a "woman" and a
>
> "whore" in Revelation 17 many are quick to conclude the woman in chapter
> 12 is the true Church. But they are mistaken. As we have already seen by
> so many scriptural proofs the Church will not go through the Tribulation.
> The obvious truth is that the woman in Revelation 12 is not the Church.
She
> is ISRAEL. Proof? In Genesis the patriarch Joseph dreamed the exact
> "wonder" pictured in Revelation 12:1. "And he dreamed yet another dream,
> and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more,
and
> behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me"
> (37:9). This proves that the woman in Revelation 12 is the nation Israel.
> "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
> delivered" (Rev. 12:2), referring to the Messiah being born from Israel, "a
> man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child wa
s
> caught up unto God, and to his throne" (v.5), that is, Christ ascended to
> heaven. The "Place of Safety" for this woman is referred to in verses 6
and
> 14; this is taken to mean by postTribulationists that the Church is on
earth
> during the Tribulation. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she
> hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand
two
> hundred and threescore days.And to the woman were given two wings of a
great
> eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is
> nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the
> serpent."
>
>
>
> It is indisputable that a remnant of Israel will be protected
> from the wrath of Satan for a period of three and a half years. The
> question is, are these believing remnant literal descendants of the Jews or
> the Church? The answer is given by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 24.
> Speaking of the beginning of the Great Tribulation, His instruction is for
> the JEWS: "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let
him
> which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:
> Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And
> woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those
days!
> But PRAY YE THAT YOUR FLIGHT BE NOT IN THE WINTER, NEITHER ON THE SABBATH
> DAY" (vv. 16-20). This is the same flight spoken of in Revelation 12:14.
> It is the Jews, not the Church, who are to flee to the mountains where
there
> is a special place prepared for them (probably Petra). Notice that Christ
> is concerned about their flight happening on a Sabbath day. The Jews keep
> the Sabbath law; the Church does not. While the believing remnant of
Israel
> are in their place of refuge (Isaiah 26:20), the Church is up in heaven
> preparing for her return to earth to rule with Christ a thousand years.
>
>
>
> Can we find the Church on earth during the seven-year
> Tribulation? If so, we ought to find her mentioned in Revelation 6 through
> 18. I tried but I didn't find her in those thirteen chapters.
>
>
>
> In Revelation 1 to 3 "church" and "churches" are mentioned
> nineteen times. The Church is mentioned again only in 22:16, and that only
> in retrospect. In Revelation 19 the Church, being in heaven, is called the
> Bride and Wife of the Lamb. (The Church is never called a "woman" in the
> Bible; another point concerning Revelation 12.)
>
>
>
> In the letters to the seven Churches there is the formula, "He
> that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches," to
> admonish the leaders and members of the Church. But in chapter 13 the
> admonition-formula is "edited" to conform to the new subject and new
> situation - "If any man have an ear, let him hear" (v.9). The Church is no
> more, and the Spirit is gone with her. The Tribulation saints - Jews and
> Gentiles alike - are being addressed here. Notice the gloomy warning: "He
> that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: and he that killeth
> with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and
> faith of the saints" (v.10). The Tribulation saints are advised to endure
> with patience and faith. It's far better to be a believer now and be
> raptured to heaven when the time comes than to believe later and endure the
> Tribulation. At that time, the evaluation of a voice in heaven will be, "
> Therefore, rejoice, ye heavens, and YE THAT DWELL IN THEM" - the Church,
> because God spared her the Tribulation - but "Woe to the inhabiters of the
> earth and of the sea!" - those left behind - "for the devil is come down
> unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short
> time" (12:12). Where would you rather be at that time?
>
>
>
> One more scriptural proof that the Church will not be present
on
> earth during the Tribulation is in Revelation 7. "After this" - after John
> has seen the 144,000 Jewish servants of God sealed - "I beheld, and, lo, a
> great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds,
> and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb,
> clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud
> voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto
> the Lamb" (vv.9,10). These are new arrivals in heaven. John does not know
> who they are. One of the elders in heaven asks him, "What are these which
> are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?" (v.13). Notice John's
> answer: "Sir, thou knowest" (v.14a). If these people were part of the
> Church John would know. The elder goes on to enlighten John, "These are
> they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and
> made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (v.14b). These people are
> Tribulation converts. They will pay the price of martyrdom for their
> belated faith. I can imagine that they will include people who will
believe
> because of the witness of Church members who used to "pester" them with the
> gospel or with the "rapture theory." For them, "to see is to believe" will
> be amended to to see not is to believe. In other words, when their
> Christian relatives, regular acquaintances, and friends - and enemies, for
> that matter - are gone, nowhere to be found on earth, then they will
> believe. "Those people, after all, told the truth," they will finally
> realise.
>
>
>
> Salvation will still be available during the Tribulation. Only
> it will be a terrible time for believers. I'd rather be a believer NOW.
>
>
>
> IS IT IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE?
>
>
>
> Now that we have seen that the Rapture will occur immediately before the
> Tribulation, does it make any difference? In this regard I have received
> some not-so-positive responses from people with whom I have tried to
share
> this "discovery." One commented that to know when the Rapture will occur
in
> relation to the Tribulation is not important at all. Whether it is preTrib
> or postTrib, he said it should not make any difference; what's important is
> "to do the work" (in a sense, that is true). A friend said that trying to
> know where in the chronology of endtime events the Rapture will happen is
> "merely an intellectual exercise." "It is not of urgent importance,"
> insisted a local church elder. They have their reasons for such
indifferent
> responses to the Rapture question, but one thing I can infer from their
> comments: they do not believe that Christ may come any moment now; if they
> did they would not say those words.
>
>
>
> How is it, then? Is it important to know the timing of the Rapture? Does
> it make any difference in a Christian's life to know that the Rapture is
> preTribulational and imminent?
>
>
>
> First of all, we Christians are expected to be interested in the Lord's
> Second Coming. One who is not is suspect. "If ye then be risen with
> Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the
right
> hand of God, Set your affection on things above, not on things on the
earth"
> (Col. 3:1,2). We have the original disciples for an example, who were very
> much interested to know the timing of the Second Coming, when they asked
the
> Lord, "Tell us, when shall these things be...?" (Matt. 24:3).
>
>
>
> The establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth is a foundational
> doctrine of the Bible. If we are obeying the injunction to pray "Thy
> Kingdom come," out of a sincere heart, then we will be interested to know
> all things that have to do with that Kingdom, so far as God reveals them,
> including the Biblical teaching as to when the Rapture will occur in the
> series of prophesied events.
>
>
>
> Not of urgent importance? Christ's loving warning has a sense of urgency
> (Matt. 24:36-44 ; Mark 13:32-37 ; Luke 12:34-40 ;21:34-36). It is very
> important to know and understand that we should be eagerly looking for Him
> to take us to Himself (1 Cor. 1:7). If we are so careless as to believe
> that that the Lord will come for us at the end of the Tribulation, then,
> truly, there is no sense of urgency in us, because we "know" Jesus will not
> come for at least seven more years ahead of us. That is the doctrine of
"My
> lord delayeth his coming" (Matt. 24:48), which would put us in danger of
> carelessness in regard to preparing for the Lord's unexpected coming. On
> the other hand, when one knows that the Lord may come this very day (the
> doctrine of imminence), he makes sure he is ready for it anytime, "for
every
> man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1
> John 3:3). The realisation that Christ may come at any moment is the
> greatest motivating factor for any Christian to live a holy life. It is
> interesting to note that a "crown of righteousness" is reserved for those
> who love the doctrine of the Rapture (2 Tim. 4:8).
>
>
>
> HOW CLOSE ARE WE?
>
>
>
> There have been many a "Disappointment" since the day of William Miller.
> Are we in a different situation now? Are we really approaching the close
of
> the age? Remember, the disciples asked Jesus the question "WHEN?" And the
> Lord answered. He gave signs pointing to His Second Coming in glory. And
> we know the Rapture will come seven years earlier.
>
>
>
> There was one incident recorded in the gospels when the Jews were asking
> for a sign from heaven. The Lord said to them, "When it is evening, ye
say,
> It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will
be
> foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye
> can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the
> times?" (Matt. 16:2,3) Those religious leaders could not discern the signs
> of the times because they refused to believe Jesus and the scriptures.
> Today, we, in like manner, are confronted with a similar situation. Will
we
> also close our eyes to the truth? Do we not see that the stage has been
set
> for the endtime prophecies to be fulfilled? Granted, we cannot know for
> sure exactly when the 70th Week - the Tribulation - will begin. But we are
> promised that we can know the general time. Notice, "Surely the Lord GOD
> will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the
> prophets" (Amos 3:7). When God is about to do something with regard to
> Israel He sends prophets to warn the people. At this stage, no prophet is
> on the scene (there will be once the Tribulation starts), so we have to go
> to the writings of the prophets.
>
>
>
> Daniel the prophet gives unmistakable signs to signal that the 70th Week
> is very near. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
> even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall
> be increased" (12:4). This prophecy, given through the angel Gabriel,
began
> to be fulfilled with the invention of the combustion engine. The airplane
> is only a hundred years old. Today we take for granted the ease and speed
> with which we travel and communicate; we forget that people transported
> themselves "by horse and buggy," so to speak, for about 5,900 years (if we
> reckon that Adam and Eve were created 4000 BC). Fast travel and knowledge
> explosion, according to the book of Daniel, are a definite sign that God is
> about to complete the fulfillment of the 70-Week Prophecy.
>
>
>
> But the greatest Prophet of all - the Lord Jesus Christ - gives another
> sign which is nothing less miraculous. It is the sign of the modern nation
> of ISRAEL. "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet
> tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh ; So likewise
> ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the
> doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
> these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:32-34). The fig tree is a symbol of
> Israel (Hosea 9:10). The parable therefore seems to reveal that when
Israel
> is back on her original land - and she must be if the prophecies are to be
> fulfilled (Isaiah 66:8) - then the generation which saw the rebirth of the
> nation (1948) will not pass till the Messiah returns. At any rate, the
fact
> that Israel is back in the Middle East is a sure sign that the prophecies
> concerning the Kingdom as well as God's judgment on the nations can now be
> fulfilled.
>
>
>
> Moreover, in the book of Luke, the Lord gave a statement the meaning of
> which is to me as clear as the day: "...upon the earth distress of nations,
> with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring... And when these things
> begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
> redemption draweth nigh" (Luke 21:25b, 28). The December 26, 2004 tsunami
> is a clear sign of the nearness of "redemption." Redemption for the
> Israelites when they will at last recognise their Messiah, and they will be
> delivered (Jer. 30:7 ; Dan. 12:1); and redemption for us Christians when we
> will be raptured to heaven (Rev. 4:1 ; 1 Thess. 4:15-17 ; Rev. 5:8-10 ;
Rom.
> 8:23). I'm reminded of an old song which has the line, "We're almost
there"!
> That's how close we are to the Rapture and to the Glorious Second Coming of
> Jesus Christ.
>
>
>
> Our Lord says, "I am... the bright and morning star" (Rev. 22:16b).
> Although the world is about to enter its darkest hour - "the hour of trial"
> (Rev. 3:10) - we look eagerly to the breaking of the "light that shineth in
> a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise..." (2 Pet. 1:19b).
> The Rapture is the event when the dawn's bright "morning star" - our
> Redeemer - will appear in the sky to take us to Himself (John 14:3) when it
> is still dark in the world (the seven-year Tribulation) before sunrise.
> Then the Sun of Righteousness (Mal. 4:2) - the "DAY STAR" - shall arise at
> His Glorious Second Coming.
>
>
>
> It is said that the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. Literally, yes.
> But the revelation of the doctrine is in there. This article, though, is
> not intended to be exhaustive.
>
>
>
> IT'S TIME TO REPLACE REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY
>
>
> Before I close, I would like to say a few words on Replacement Theology.
> I understand it to mean that because the Jews rejected Christ, God's
> promises to them have all been abrogated and transferred to the Church.
> Hence, whenever the word "Israel" is mentioned in the Bible, having to do
> with God's promises, we have only to change it to "Church" to get the
> "correct" meaning; and "Jerusalem" is taken to mean "heaven." I've heard
> that about 3,600 times in the Bible this "magic" is advanced. This gross
> mishandling of the Word of God is a big reason why so many are not able to
> see the truth of the Rapture of the Church.
>
>
>
> If we understand that God's program for Israel is distinct from
> His program for the Church, then it would be clear to us that the Church
> will have to be raptured before the 70-Week prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 can
> be continued to its conclusion. The Church will have to be evacuated from
> the earth so that God's prophecies for Israel will be fulfilled during the
> last seven years, the "time of Jacob's trouble".
>
>
>
> When the Bible says "Israel" it means Israel, not the Church.
> Old Testament prophets did not know about the coming of the Church.
> Although they had some hint of a timespan we call the Church Age, as in
> Psalm 110:1, the Church itself was a mystery - "hid" in God (Col. 1:26) -
to
> them.
>
>
>
> To say that the Church Age is the GREAT PARENTHESIS in the plan
> of God for Israel is not to minimise the importance of the Church. It is
> all explained in Romans 9, 10, 11. On the other hand, Replacement Theology
> does away with God's promises to Israel, which is a wrong interpretation of
> the message of the Bible. The plain truth is, the Church is the Bride of
> Christ and Israel will surely receive all the promises made to them, from
> the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant down to Davidic Covenant and
the
> "Marian Covenant." Let's look at the last one: "Fear not, Mary: for thou
> hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb,
> and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great,
> and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give
unto
> him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of
> Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:30-33).
>
>
>
> It is beyond the scope of this article to discuss the Kingdom
of
> God. I am only making this last point to underscore the fact that the
> prophecies for the endtime will be fulfilled literally, just as the
> prophecies concerning Christ's first coming were fulfilled literally. Only
> by taking the prophecies of the Bible literally will we understand that
> Christ's Second Coming will be in two stages - first, the imminent Rapture
> of the Church, afterwards the Glorious Revelation seven years later. I
hope
> the above seven proofs thereof are complete enough for anyone who
heretofore
> has entertained some honest doubts.
>
>
>
> For readers who have not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their
Lord
> and Saviour, the following scripture references are listed for them to
read,
> study and take to heart. Salvation is not a complicated matter.
>
>
>
> 1. Romans 3:23
>
> 2. Romans 6:23
>
> 3. Romans 5:8-10
>
> 4. Acts 3:19
>
> 5. Ephesians 2:8
>
> 6. Romans 10:9,10,13
>
> 7. Acts 2:38
>
>
>
> SEE YOU AT THE RAPTURE!!! (Take that literally.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Read The Bible
Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain
the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under
the law, that I might gain them that are under the
law; To them that are without law, as without law,
(being not without law to God, but under the law to
Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know
the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man
as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an
husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as
he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed
from the law of her husband. So then if, while her
husband liveth, she be married to another man, she
shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be
dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no
adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to
the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be
married to another, even to him who is raised from
the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins,
which were by the law, did work in our members to
bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are
delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we
were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,
and not in the oldness of the letter.
For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and
engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the
children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the
face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which
glory was to be done away: How shall not the
ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if
the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more
doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in
glory. For even that which was made glorious had no
glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that
excelleth. For if that which is done away was
glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great
plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a
vail over his face, that the children of Israel could
not stedfastly look to the end of that which is
abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until
this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the
reading of the old testament; which vail is done away
in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is
read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when
it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken
away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the
Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
of the way, nailing it to his cross.
> Antinomianism instead of following Jesus.
The Jews sought the more to kill him, because he
(had) broken the sabbath.
Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and
his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the
ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw
it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that
which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But
he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did,
when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the
shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat,
neither for them which were with him, but only for
the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that
on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane
the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you,
That in this place is one greater than the temple.
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned
the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the
sabbath day.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or
of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to
come; but the body is of Christ.
The law having a shadow of good things to come, and
not the very image of the things.
> So grace and the law work together
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ
hath made us free, and be not entangled again with
the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you,
that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you
nothing. For I testify again to every man that is
circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of
you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from
grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of
righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither
circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;
but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who
did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A
little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have
confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be
none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you
shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. And I,
brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet
suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross
ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble
you.
Read The Bible
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the
law of commandments contained in ordinances.
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,
that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look
to the end of that which is abolished.
The ministration of death, written and engraven in
stones.
Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in
of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto
God.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under
the curse.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to
every one that believeth.
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the
world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through
the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
> the Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus' identity as
> Messiah obey his teachings
If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in
your sins.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is
the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the
Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son,
the same hath not the Father.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see
life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature. He that
believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs
shall follow them that believe; In my name shall
they cast out devils; they shall speak with new
tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they
drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they
shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all
things whatsoever I have commanded you.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,
and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
The Lord Jesus the same night in which he was
betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he
brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which
is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he
had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in
my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in
remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread,
and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till
he come.
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife,
let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say
unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to
commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that
is divorced committeth adultery.
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to
give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of
your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but
from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto
you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be
for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth
adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away
doth commit adultery.
Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master,
Read The Bible
> worship Him
When he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto
him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb
for ever and ever.
The four beasts and four and twenty elders fell
down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are
the prayers of saints.
Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do.
They stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying,
Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help
me.
They saw the young child with Mary his mother, and
fell down, and worshipped him.
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,
saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped
him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
When he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.
And they came and held him by the feet, and
worshipped him.
Worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea,
and the fountains of waters.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God. The same was in the
beginning with God. All things were made by him; and
without him was not any thing made that was made.
For by him were all things created, that are in
heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him: And he is before all things, and
by him all things consist. And he is the head of the
body, the church: who is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might
have the preeminence.
Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his
judgment is come.
The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
judgment unto the Son.
Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever
and ever.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my
God.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I am.
Thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among
the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come
forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose
goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and
his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The
mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of
Peace.
*******
> Saul/Paul founded Christianity, not Jesus
Brethren, I (Paul) declare unto you the gospel which
I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and
wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye
keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye
have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first
of all that which I also received, how that Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures; And
that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen
of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was
seen of above five hundred brethren at once.
Read The Bible
As (Saul) journeyed, he came near Damascus: and
suddenly there shined round about him a light from
heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice
saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said,
I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee
to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and
astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the
city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose
from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw
no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him
into Damascus. And he was three days without sight,
and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a
certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to
him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said,
Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him,
Arise, and go into the street which is called
Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one
called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And
hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in,
and putting his hand on him, that he might receive
his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of
this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at
Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief
priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the
Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen
vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles,
and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will
shew him how great things he must suffer for my
name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered
into the house; and putting his hands on him said,
Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared
unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me,
that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled
with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from
his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight
forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he
had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was
Saul certain days with the disciples which were at
Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the
synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
*******
> There were TWO choices: Jewish or Gentile.
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the
Gentiles, nor to the church of God.
We conclude that a man is justified by faith without
the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only?
is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles
also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the
circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through
faith.
Not only I give thanks, but also all the churches
of the Gentiles.
Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ
Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor
Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's
seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision
nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor
free: but Christ is all, and in all.
> walk as the Jews walk
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments
of men, that turn from the truth.
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and
deceivers, specially they of the circumcision.
When the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled
with envy, and spake against those things which were
spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save
one.
Ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God
which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have
suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as
they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord
Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted
us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all
men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they
might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the
wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
The Jews sought the more to kill (Jesus), because he
not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that
God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Read The Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I
was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses, and in the
prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,
that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of
him, they took him down from the tree.
Because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the
prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have
fulfilled them in condemning him.
We declare unto you glad tidings, how that the
promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath
fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he
hath raised up Jesus again.
---
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child.
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the
prophet, saying, In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I
called my son.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias
the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the
land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond
Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat
in darkness saw great light.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias
the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have
chosen.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not
understand.
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be
fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed
our report?
This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which
was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the
daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee,
meek, and sitting upon an ass.
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye
took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
None of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that
the scripture might be fulfilled.
That the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth
bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy
the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces
of silver.
This cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a
cause.
All this was done, that the scriptures of the
prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples
forsook him, and fled.
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he
was numbered with the transgressors.
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias
the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities.
That the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith,
They parted my raiment among them.
For these things were done, that the scripture should
be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Those things, which God before had shewed by the
mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer,
he hath so fulfilled.
> Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
> commandments
I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his
brother without a cause shall be in danger of the
judgment.
I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to
lust after her hath committed adultery.
I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his
wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth
her to commit adultery.
I say unto you, Swear not at all.
I say unto you, That ye resist not evil.
I say unto you, Love your enemies.
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men.
When thou prayest, enter into thy closet.
When thou fastest, anoint thine head.
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth.
Take no thought for your life.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow.
Judge not.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs.
Every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and
doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish
man.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be
called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth
them, I will liken him unto a wise man.
Whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall
be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Budikka
offers evidence for so-called macroevolution. I did it on three
occasions with more to come:
http://tinyurl.com/dxqjc
http://tinyurl.com/b5sjn
http://tinyurl.com/7lvwr
If you're too cowardly to even acknowledge them, let alone provide the
discussion you're so afraid of - the discussion you claimed the
evolutionists would run from but you would not, I'll understand. Waht
greater calling could a believer have than to emulate a saint - a limp
Peter at the passion.
You know, if you don't evolve your thinking, you creationists are going
to become extinct.
I guess the evolutionists win.
Budikka
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:42:58 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:20:32 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
>><Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>>>news:t0bsi19r7jp4h9h0m...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> Since actual faith in Messiah and faith in God require obedience to
>>>> all the Commandments as well as an understanding that this obedience
>>>> does not "earn" salvation through this obedience. Obviously "keeping
>>>> faithful even unto death" means obeying the Commandmants, and trusting
>>>> that the death of Messiah provides the atonement that allows us to
>>>> eneter heaven.
>>>
>>>Salvation by grace "requires" nothing but faith (maturity and growth not
>>>withstanding).
>>
>>Of course The English word "faith" is a poor translation of the hebrew
>>word "emmunah" and/or the Greek word "pistis," both of which mean a
>>moral conviction that brings about actions. So, without obedience to
>>God's Commandmants, there is no faith.
>
>Obedience is to the Law of liberty in Christ.
Since man-made additions to Jewish law required Toshavim (partial
converts) to commit certain sins because they were deemed unworthy to
celebrate Sabbath, wear tzitziyot, or obey a few Commandments, the
Liberty that Messiah taught was that men should not restrain you from
godliness. Obedience is to all 613 Commandmants that jesus commanded
His follower to obey in Matthew 5:17-19.
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:6g7ui11silm1i9aoe...@4ax.com...
>Mr 13:9-11 et al.
>
> "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils;
>and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before
>rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel
>must first be published among all nations.
> "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
>beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
>shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak,
>but the Holy Ghost."
>
Yes, Jesus did warn of the Tribulation, but the Greek word "sunedrion"
can mean more things that just the Sanhedrin. The Greek can refer to
any religious tribunal (court) by any religion, including
Christianity.
>
>>>Salvation by grace alone simply isn't good enough for the Pharisees, and,
>>>in
>>>due course of time, they'll kill you for not adhering to their laws and
>>>ordinances.
>>
>> Jesus IS a Pharisee, and He taught that those who obey God's
>> commandmants are saved by grace, while those who reject the
>> Commandments are not saved even when they call upon Him for salvation
>> (Matthew 7:21-23).
>
>Jesus was never, ever a Pharisee.
He was all His life, and still is.
Ike, I know that you are a racist and that you do not believe what
Paul wrote in Romans, but you really look silly now! Pharisees were
defined by two beliefs, both of which Jesus taught. One: There is an
afterlife; no one can claim that jesus did not speak of the world to
come. Two: Each individual must take responcibility for his own
actions and not just "buy permission to sin" with animal offerings;
Jesus frequently said to people "Go, and sin no more."
So Jesus was a Pharisee. His theologies in general agreed with Beyt
Hillel, the Majority group among the Pharisees. The second group,
Beyt Shammai disagreed with Beyt Hillel and Jesus on almost
everything, and the Gospel records their agents attempting to trap
Jesus into discrediting Himself.
>
>That has to be one of the most warped lies against scripture ever spoken.
LOL you only say that because it opposes your racism.
>
>>>In other words, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be at the end.
>>
>> Yes, Christians pretending to follow Jesus will attack the people who
>> really follow Jesus, just as you do Ike.
>
>You're not following Jesus. You're wallowing in the religion of death
>created by infiltrators into Israel.
???
What Nazi myth are you spouting now?
>
>Ike
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:55:51 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>The Greek word used in the Greek translations of the New Testament is
>>"nomos." "Nomos" is also used in the Septuagint to translate the
>>Hebrew word "Torah" (Instruction). Several times in the New
>>Testament, the word "nomos" appears with an "a-" prefix attached to
>>it, making a new word: "anomos." In Greek, the "a-" prefix means
>>"no," "not," or "without."
>>
>>The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless." Sometimes
>>the word appears in the New Testament in its noun form: "anomia" or
>>"anomian." You may recognize this as the source for the English word
>>"anomian" orits more common form "antinomian" Webster's Dictionary
>>defines an antinomian as "one who holds that under the gosple
>>dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because
>>faith alone is necessary to salvation."
>
>You haven't made a point.
Defining terms here...
>
>
>>I have heard many Christians promote this theology, even if they did
>>not know what the term for it is. When you consider what the Bible
>>says about Antinomians and Antinomianism, it is hard to see how anyone
>>would want to follow this doctrine. Let's look at a few places where
>>the Bible discusses Antinomianism.
>
>No one is saying that. Liberty does not equal license
>and it is dishonest of you to say that someone is
>saying that.
The vast majority of Christianity says just that!
They wear shatznez, eat pork, celebrate Christmas and Easter, violate
the Sabbath, pray to Jesus, take communion and many other evil things
that God forbids.
>
>
>>Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the
>>Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
>>22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy
>>in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform
>>many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces,
>>‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers against the
>>Commandmants'!" (Matt 7:21-23)
>
>The Bible does not say, "workers against the
>Commandments". You are dishonestly changing
>the wording of the Bible.
It says, "...ergazomenoi tên anomian." Note the use of the definate
article "tên;" this is used in Ancient Greek similarly to the Ancient
Hebrew usage whereby it intensifies the meaning. In Modern English we
would capialize the next word, which is the one that it modefies. So,
"...workers against the Law" or "...workers against the Commandmants."
God's Law IS the Commandmants. Since it cannot be argued that anyone
can be damned for violating man-made laws, we can only accept that
this is God's Law, the 613 Commandmants.
So, your claim was inaccurate.
>
>And you forgot to note that the people He told to
>"get away from Him", were those who were doing
>good works. That should teach you that it is not
>by good works that we are saved. Rather, good
>works flow forth from a good heart and good works
>does not mean being bound under the Law.
The Biblke does not say that they did any "good" works. They claimed
that their works were good, but they opposed the Commandmants.
>
>"But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has
>made me free from the law of sin and death."
>- Romans 8:2
So, the salvation though Messiah is part of the Law and protects us
from the damnation that would otherwise be our lawful fate. Yes, this
is good, but it does not address the point.
>
>This is very simple stuff. You are preaching exactly
>what the Gospel of Christ teaches against.
Dave you are preaching the theology of the Anti-Christ (Second
Thessalonians, Chapter 2) and blaspheming against Jesus to do it
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
[snip]
>>Mr 13:9-11 et al.
>>
>> "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to
>> councils;
>>and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before
>>rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel
>>must first be published among all nations.
>> "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
>>beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
>>shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that
>>speak,
>>but the Holy Ghost."
>>
>
> Yes, Jesus did warn of the Tribulation, but the Greek word "sunedrion"
> can mean more things that just the Sanhedrin. The Greek can refer to
> any religious tribunal (court) by any religion, including
> Christianity.
Kind of skipped over the word "synagogue," but that was to be expected.
[snip]
> Ike, I know that you are a racist and that you do not believe what
> Paul wrote in Romans, but you really look silly now!
I know precisely what Paul wrote in Romans: God will remove half of the
"branches" of the original olive tree (Judaism), and cast down those that
defile the truth (such as yourself) while upholding the Jews who are Jews
indeed. Moreover, God will replace those lost branches with branches from
the "wild olive tree," i.e. the Gentile believers, i.e. Christians, bringing
grace into the great equation.
So it's not a matter of your false claims of "racism" or "Nazism." It's a
matter of God saving the truth-telling humble and contrite Jews, such as the
patriarchs of the Old Testament, versus God casting down the manipulative
and hateful Pharisees (such as yoursef), Saducees, and Herodians (whom Jesus
despised) into the bowels of the earth.
Hence, I do not have a problem with "Jews who are Jews indeed." I have a
problem with "Jews who are not Jews" (such as yourself) that John prophesied
would greatly torment the churches in the last days.
Just another sign of the coming times, I guess.
Only a liar of the umpteenth magnitude, a base deceit, a spawn of the unholy
trinity itself would ever make the claim that "Jesus was a Pharisee."
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:52:44 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>>
>>>That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
>>>His Commandments. He gave two.
>>
>>In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says that all 613 Commandmants will be in
>>effect and must be obeyed until Heaven and Earth are destroyed.
>
>No, He did not. Those words are not found there.
>You changed them.
"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you
that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yod or a tag
will pass from the Torah - not until everything has happened. So,
whoever disobeys the least of the Mitzvot (the 613 Commandmants) and
teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of
Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in
the Kingdom of Heaven."
Obviously, I did NOT change them.
>
>I believe heaven and earth has passed. That was
>a symbolic statement. But even if you take it to be
>literal, the presence of the Law does not equal being
>under the Law for believers. The Law serves to convict
>those who are in unbelief.
That is ridiculous! the Law is to bless believers. Unbelievers have
no real knowledge of the Law and it does not effect them (at least not
until judgement makes them believers for that brief period proceeding
their damnation).
The fact that the Messianic prophecies have not all been accomplished
yet also indictaes that the time spoken of has not arrived. Messiah's
return is foretold in the prophets. of particular interest is Isaiah
66 which also includes an statement that at that time there will be
saved people who just before entering paradise violate the dietary
commandmants and loose their salvation for this sin.
>
>"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak
>through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the
>likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin
>in the flesh;" - Romans 8:3
>
>Note: The Law could not do it. No one has followed
>the Law perfectly and thus, no one could be saved
>by it.
The law could not do WHAT????
The Law was never intended as a means of salvation.
Read the entire Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy - where all the
Commandmants are located) and you will see that entrance into Heaven
is NOT promised as a reward for obeying all of the Commandmants
perfectly. The Commandmants are to bring us closer to God in THIS
life; only Messiah can bring us closer to God in the NEXT life.
Also, God says that the Commandments are easy to obey in Deuteronomy
30:10-14. granted most of humanity disobeyes God. the Bible only
lists four people other than Jesus who obeyed all the Commandments
(enoch, Abraham, Zachariah, and Elishevah - two from the Torah and two
from the Gospel).
>
>1) You don't seem to understand the time line.
>When Jesus walked the Earth, *HE* had to
>fulfill the Law perfectly, in order to be a perfect
>sacrifice.
Which means that he could not anull the Commandments, because
Deuteronomy 4:2 describes that as an evil action, a sin.
>
>2) Once He accomplished what He did, those
>who believe in Him are freed from the Law.
The Bible does not say that.
>
>Colossians 2:13-14
>
>13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
>uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened
>together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
>14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
>was against us, which was contrary to us, and took
>it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
LOL that is a horrible mistranslation.
The Greek reads, "exaleipsas to kath êmôn cheirographon tois dogmasin
o ên upenantion êmin kai auto êrken ek tou mesou prosêlôsas auto tô
staurô
(Blotting out the Bill of Charges against us, the ordinances that
were our opposition, and has removed [it] from our way, nailing it to
the stake.)"
The words "bill of charges" in this translation are a more accurate
expression of the context of the words than some translations. The
symbolism here draws from the Roman customs at crucifixion. The
Romans placed a placard listing the charges for which a prisoner was
convicted on the stake where he was executed. This public display was
supposed to deter potential criminals. It is also clear that the
phrase "the ordinances that were our opposition" is a modifier for
this same "bill of charges." This modifying phrase holds two
meanings. It means that the charges against us are actually true, we
have sinned, we have opposed God's Law, and that the guilt incurred
though our sins opposed our path to Heaven. So, we see that it is our
guilt that was nailed, the accusations of Satan that were nailed, not
the Word of God.
>
>
>"For the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus
>set me free from the law of sin and of death."
>- Romans 8:2
Yes, we are freed from the punishment described in the Law and have
the Heaven foretold in the Law.
>
>"Why then the Law? It was added because of
>transgressions, until the Seed should come to
>those to whom it had been promised, being
>ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand."
>- Galatian 3:19
>
>Note: *UNTIL* the Seed should come. He did come.
The main point of the entire passage is that Salvation is not and
never was a function of the Law. But to address this specific verse,
it must be interpreted to agree with the rest of the Messianic
Prophecies. The Circumcision of the Heart/writing the Law upon out
hearts not yet ocurred. Both deuteronomy 30:1-6 and Jeremiah 31:27-34
place this after the Tribulation. Thus, when Messiah return's and
everything has happened (See: Matthew 5:17-19) this prophecy will be
accomplished and we will obey all the commandmants by nature rather
than having to overcome temptation.
>
>3) Believers are not saved by the Law, nor could they
>be. Believers are saved by grace through faith UNTO
>good works in Christ. Again, note the time line.
Salvation is by garce!
no one said that it was not!
In fact salvation is not even the topic, so I don't know why you are
bringing it up.
>
>Ephesians 2:8-10
>
>8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that
>not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
>9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
>10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
>to good works, which God has before ordained that we
>should walk in them.
Yes, I am sure that we all agree with this.
It is noit the topic, but we do agree.
>
>
>>In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that our obediance to all 613
>>Commandmants must be motivated by our love for God and our love for
>>our fellow man.
>
>He never said any such words. You added them.
>Do not add your own words and think that anyone
>here is going to think you're quoting the Bible.
Dave, I paraphrased a translation, but I did say the same thing that
he said. No one who read what i typed would be stupid enough to think
it was a quote.
The passage translates as: "'Rabbi, which Commandment is greatest in
the Law?'
"And He answered him, '"You must love the Lord You God, with all your
heart, with all your with all your soul and with all your mind." This
is the first and greatest Commandmant.And the second is like to it:
"You must love your comrade as yourself." On these two Commandments
depend all of the Law and the prophets'."
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>No one is saying that. Liberty does not equal license
>>and it is dishonest of you to say that someone is
>>saying that.
>
>The vast majority of Christianity says just that!
>They wear shatznez, eat pork, celebrate Christmas and Easter, violate
>the Sabbath, pray to Jesus, take communion and many other evil things
>that God forbids.
According to you.
Acts 15:23-29
23) And they wrote these things by their hand: The
apostles and elders and brothers send greeting to
the brothers, from the nations in Antioch and Syria
and Cilicia.
24) Because we have heard that certain ones who
went out from us have troubled you with words,
unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and
keep the law! (to whom we gave no such command);
25) it seemed good to us, being assembled with one
accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved
Barnabas and Paul,
26) men who have given up their lives for the name
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27) Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who will
also announce to you the same things by word.
28) For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us
to lay on you no greater burden than these necessary
things:
29) that you abstain from meats offered to idols, and
from blood, and from things strangled, and from
fornication; from which, if you keep yourselves, you
shall do well. Be prospered.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>>>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>>>
>>>>That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
>>>>His Commandments. He gave two.
>>>
>>>In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says that all 613 Commandmants will be in
>>>effect and must be obeyed until Heaven and Earth are destroyed.
>>
>>No, He did not. Those words are not found there.
>>You changed them.
>
>"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
>have come not to abolish but to complete.
And when it is complete, that's it.
>Obviously, I did NOT change them.
Obviously, you did. It doesn't say, "Torah".
Jesus discussed what *HE* came to do.
He did not say, "and you must obey all
613 commandments until heaven and
earth pass".
YOU ADDED THOSE WORDS!
>>I believe heaven and earth has passed. That was
>>a symbolic statement. But even if you take it to be
>>literal, the presence of the Law does not equal being
>>under the Law for believers. The Law serves to convict
>>those who are in unbelief.
>
>That is ridiculous! the Law is to bless believers. Unbelievers have
>no real knowledge of the Law and it does not effect them (at least not
>until judgement makes them believers for that brief period proceeding
>their damnation).
Believers are not bound under the Law.
Colossians 2:13-14
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive
together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14) blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
was against us, which was contrary to us, and has
taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.
>The fact that the Messianic prophecies have not all been accomplished
That is your opinion.
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:i99ui1phqstdkc49g...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:14:37 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
>> <Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
>
>Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the
>Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Yes, some smaller groups od Pharisees were almost as corrupt as the
Saducees.
>
>> He could not
>> even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
>> with His theology.
>
>Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
> Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
So, you admit that the majority of the Pharisees agreed with His
theology.
They were waiting to see Him return as King Messiah. While their
interpretation of the Prophecy had the right timeline, they wer wrong
about the actual time between Servant Messiah and King Messiah.
Your quote is off topic.
>
>
>> Yet Christians go about rejecting the Commandmants for no biblical
>> reson at all.
>
>And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son
>Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment, And he that
>keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know
>that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that
until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yod or a tag will
pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has
happened. So, whoever disobeys the least of the Mitzvot and teaches
others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the
Kingdom of Heaven." Matthew 5:17-19
So, Ike, you see that all 613 Commandmants were commanded by Jesus.
>
>> Paul even identified this Christian theology with the
>> Anti-Christ in Second Thessalonians, but the Christians, like you,
>> Ike, follow the man-made theology, Antinomianism instead of following
>> Jesus.
>
>Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes
>and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you
>observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say,
>and do not.For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay
>them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of
>their fingers.
Well that is off topic, but an interesting quote since in this passage
He criticizes a small group of pharisees for violating the Oral Law,
of which most Christians are completely ignorant.
>
>
>
>>>>>And Christians do not "disavow" the Bible commandments: They're
>>>>>fulfilled
>>>>>in
>>>>>Jesus Christ. That they are fulfilled in Him, and His blood covers our
>>>>>sins
>>>>>in no way "disavows" the commandments.
>
> For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when
>there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over
>them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who
>is the figure of him that was to come.
> But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the
>offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by
>grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not
>as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to
>condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
> For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which
>receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in
>life by one, Jesus Christ.
Well that is completely off topic, but at least you can cut and paste.
Salvation is not the topic. The Law never provided salvation because
it was never intended for salvation.
>
>
>
>>>> You are not making sense.
>
>Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But
>for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised
>up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was
>raised again for our justificatio
Again, you are off topic.
We all know that the Pharisaic doctrine of Salvation by Grace is
correct.
>
>> You don't make any sence because you claim that you believe that Jesus
>> was the Messiah, but you reject His teaching and hate his people.
>
>Ye do the deeds of your father.
>Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,
>even God.
>Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I
>proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
> Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
>Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He
>was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there
>is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he
>is a liar, and the father of it.
>And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here.
If you are trying to vilify the Jews, you must be reading a Nazi
pamphlet. Sirely no one in this day and age is stupid enough to this
that this passage villifies the Jews!
>
>
>> You
>> disagree with me so you try to use "Jew" as an insult.
>
>For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
If a Jew committed a crime, such as the Herodians did that was
punishable by karet, they were no longer part of Israel. Rejection of
the Law was/is one such crime.
>
>> Jesus IS a
>> Jew, so I do not feel insulted.
>
>For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision,
>which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and
>circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;
>whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Yes, so an American who is circumsized at birth for health reasons is
not automatically Jewish. Physical circumcision was always supposed
to be a sign of inner faith. Your quote does not address the topic at
all. It does however address the main topic of Jesus' teaching and
the way in which He made the Law more strict. Our inner motivations
must be pure for out outward actions to have spiritual value.
>
>> You try to use "Pharisee" as an
>> insult, but Jesus IS a Pharisee, so I am not insulted.
>
>Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land
>to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the
>child of hell than yourselves.
So SOME Pharisees were hypocrites. Jesus was NOT, no matter what
accusations you bring against Him!
>> However your
>> attempts to use personal attacks rather than backing up you claims
>> with scripture demonstrates that you doubt your proclaimed theology.
>> You choice of words to use as insults indicates racism against Jesus
>> Himself. I would not consider this following Jesus at all.
>
>Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited
>sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of
>dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear
>righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
>Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs
>of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we
>had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with
>them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto
>yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
>Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.Ye serpents, ye generation of
>vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Again, you are proving nothing. You are pasting in verses that
demonstrate that Jesus believed in Pharisaic doctrine specifically
that os the Majority faction.
>>>> If the Commandmants are fulfilled then they are complete, which is
>>>> true; Jesus DID make the Law much more strict in that now we have to
>>>> obey all 613 Commandmants AND do so motivated by the coirrect
>>>> intentions (love of God and Love for out fellow man).
>
>1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the
>truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
>crucified among you?
>This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the
>law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the
>Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many
>things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
>He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among
>you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Yes, the Saducees were counterevangelizing in the Galatian Messianic
Synagogue. They taught man-made law and conned Gentiles into
rejecting the Messiah.
>>>Jesus fulfilled the law that man could never keep, and, in its place,
>>>established salvation by grace.
>>
>> God said that man COULD keep the Commandments.
>As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that
>understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out
>of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth
>good, no, not one.
So you did not bother to check out the entire Psalm or its historical
context before quoting it.
David wrote it after he drove the Babylonians back across the
Euphrates River, annex ing the lands that He took from them. When he
returned the Pagans surrounding Israel claimed that they had hoped
that Israel would drive out the babylonians and had been "just about
to help." So david said to them "There is none righteous, no, not
one..."
>> In Deiteronomy
>> 30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
>For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater
>burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to
>idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from
>which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
That is out of context and dishonest.
In acts 15:19-21, the actual ruling takes palce with the statment in
verse 21 that the new converts will be hearing the torah read in their
synagogues on Sabbath. They were allowed to learn at their own pace.
>
>> the
>> Bible says that Enoch, Abraham, Zachariah, and Elishivah all kept the
>> Commandments.
>For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Yet the Bible says that these four were without sin.
>> The Bible says that the truth is known on the account
>> of two or more witnesses.
>For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a
>greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom
>of God is greater than he. And all the people that heard him, and the
>publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the
>Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being
>not baptized of him.
You are not making sense. Are you just cutting and pasting random
verses?
>>The Bible gives us two times two witnesses:
>> two from the Old Testament and two from the Gospel.
>Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye
>entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
That is completely nonsequitur.
>> Furthermore, the LAW states that salvation is through grace, in Exodus
>> 20:6. Of course, you cannot have garce unless the Law is in full
>> effect. So grace and the law work together to bring us closer to God.
>
>For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy
>through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that
>through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them
>all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
That does not addess the topic either.
>>>Immediately the Pharisees that infiltrated
>>>the early church set about the work of perverting Jesus' Good News, laying
>>>the yoke of law back on man's shoulders despite God's grace.
>
>But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed,
>saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep
>the law of Moses.
>And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
>And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,
>Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among
>us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and
>believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them
>the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and
>them, purifying their hearts BY FAITH.
>Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
>disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we
>believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,
>even as they.
You skipped Verse ONE of the chapter which gives us the complete
context. they claimed that the gentiles had to obey all 613
commandmants to be saved. This was based on the rabbinical
understanding of conversion. The bible uses the terms Goy (pagan),
Toshav (partial convert to Judaism), and Ger (full convert to
Judaism). The Bible makes it clear that Goyin and Toshavim and
unclean and not saved. The problem that the pre-Messianic Pharisees
had was that they did not know at which point to draw the line between
Toshav and Ger. Jesus taught that making the commitment to learn and
obey the commendments was the point where the line was drawn, not
completing the education.
So, a person can be saved even before he learns the Commandments.
Verse 21 of the chapter does say that the gentile would hear the rest
in their synagogues on Sabbath.
>> Jesus IS a Pharisee, so you are not making sense.
> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the
>tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say,
>If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers
>with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto
>yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
>Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
>Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of
>hell?
>Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and
>some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in
>your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may
>come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of
>righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew
>between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things
>shall come upon this generation.
Yes, the Pharisees were a very diverse group. Beyt Shammai and Beyt
Hillel disgareed on almost everything and Jesus agreed with Beyt
Hillel, so Beyt Shammai verbally attacked Him a lot and tried to trick
Him into discrediting Himself.
>
>> Historically speaking the deviation away from God's Law occured
>> gradually begining in the Later Second Century CE.
>>
>>>
>>>> Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>>
>>>Jesus has two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor.
>>
>> No Jesus said that our obedience to all 613 Commandmants depends on
>> those two motivations.
>
>Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you
>rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in
>heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my
>burden is light.
Yes, and in Deuteronomy 30:10-14, God said that it was easy to obey
all the Commandmants. The man-made additions on the other hand were
immpossible to obey because they were written by many rabbis who did
not agree with eachother.
>>>The rest are fulfilled in Him (but woe to those who teach that grace is
>>>license).
>>
>> that is nonsencical and double talk.
>> Fulfilled = filled to fullness = complete.
>> Now correct motivations are required as well as correct actions.
>
>For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but
>under grace.
Since the Law does not accomplish salvation and never did, your quote
does not address the topic.
>> You say that the law is abolished, then you pronounce woe to those who
>> disobey the Law. That is hypocritical nonsence.
>
>Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by
>the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Yes, but that is not the topic. you are just pastinf random quotes
again.
Yes, Jesus does provide salvation to those who do not deserve it,
delivering us from the damnation promised in the Law. And he did make
the Law more strick in that we must obey the Spirit of the Law when we
perform the physical actions of the Law. Thank you for quoting a
verse to prove my point.
>>>>>"Jezebel" represents the feminine problem of thinking that grace is
>>>>>license.
>>>>>(The Nicolaitans represent the complete lack of judgment in eithe
>>>>>regard.)
>>>>
>>>> So, Jezebel, in your opinion symbolized Christianity?
>>>
>>>"Jezebel," "Balaam and Barak," and the "Nicolaitans" represent divisive
>>>factions that would (and have) risen within the churches.
>>>
>>>"Jezebel" represents the difilement of believers via the seduction of
>>>spiritual whoredom.
>>>"Balaam and Barak" represent the difilement of believers via the deception
>>>of false ritual and ordinance.
>>>The "Nicolaitans" represent the difilement of believers via the perversion
>>>of judgment.
>>
>> Your description of Jezabel describes all Christianity.
>> The other are more specific, though all branches of Christianity
>> follow Pagan rituals and holidays that are forbidden in the Bible.
>> These evil customs of Christianity could not exist without the
>> leadership judging them falsely and allowing paganism in the churches.
>
>But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an
>answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with
>meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil
>of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good
>conversation in Christ.
Are you ashamed of the accusation that YOU brought against
Christianity? I restated your claim. The institution of Christianity
rejects the teachings of Jesus.
Yes, that is also told in the Old Testament.
That the Jews will weep and bless the name of the Messiah.
In Romans, Paul even said that all the Jews would be saved.
But your quote does not address the fact that the orthodox Jews follow
the teachings of Jesus better than the Christians.
>> It is ironic, but you can see God's hand. The Orthodox Jews have one
>> half of the puzzle, and the Christians have the other, but you need
>> BOTH to see the picture.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>They are Jews and they are Christians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot be both a Jew and a Christian.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gee, I guess somebody forgot to tell Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, etc.
>>>>>etc.
>>>>>etc.
>>>
>>>The 144,000 come from the lineage of the Jews, but believe in the Gospel
>>>of
>>>Jesus Christ, without the perversions of the Pharisees, Saducees, and
>>>Herodians.
>>>
>>>> No, they never met a christian. Christianity did not begin spliting
>>>> off from Jesus' faith until the end of the second Century CE.
>>>
>>>Christianity IS Jesus' faith.
>>
>> He never wnt to church,
>For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the
>midst of them.
So, Jesus never went to a Church and never will.
>>celebrated Christmas,
>And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary
>his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened
>their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and
>myrrh.
Yes, he was born on the fifteenth day of Tishri in a sukkah turning
the Holy Day of Sukkot (Tabernacles). he NEVER celebrated Christmas.
In fact christmas is just a whitewashed pagan festival and it is
forbidden to attempt to "clean up" pagan holidays and use them in
attempts to worship God. So, celebrating Christmas is evil.
>
>>easter,
>1Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain
>of the church.
>And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
>And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter
>also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
>And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to
>four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring
>him forth to the people.
The BIBLE says that they were celebrating PASSOVER.
>>communion,
>And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my
>body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
>After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This
>cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in
>remembrance of me.
So Jesus Identified himself with the Cup of Redemption and the
Afikomen (bread representing Resurrection) at the Passover. Well,
that agrees with your citation above!
>
>> sunday,
>And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to
>break bread...
Yes, Havdalah (ending Sabbath) is usually followed with a meal.
Acts 15:21 says that they had synagogue services on Sabbath
(Saturday).
>
>> permitted us to pray to Him or worship Him; He forbid all
>> this.
>Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping
>him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
>And he said unto her, What wilt thou?
the greek text says" (to kiss, to fawn, to crouch)" This physical
action was an act of respect, not worship.
>
>Sorry, Jesus opposes Christianity. The theologies that
>> separate Christianity from Judaism developed over time begining in the
>> Late Second Century CE.
>
>For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but
>when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which
>were of the circumcision.
>And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also
>was carried away with their dissimulation.
>But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the
>gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest
>after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou
>the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
>We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a
>man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus
>Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
>the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of
>the law shall no flesh be justified.
So, Peter obeyed a man-made custom rather than following the Biblical
Law that was part of Judaism and was rebuked for it. This is off
topic, but it does show that the biblical Laws which are obeyed in
Judaism were what the disciple followed, not the man-made dogmas of
Christianity.
>>>>>> A Hebrew/Israelite can be a christian, but he has to blaspheme against
>>>>>> the Holy Spirit by disavowing the Covenant. A Jew can accept Jesus as
>>>>>> Messiah without accepting the extra-biblical, and Anti-Biblical
>>>>>> theologies that define Christianity as a religion outside of Judaism.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thus speaks another out-of-balance legalist, who is a Pharisee to boot.
>>>>
>>>> Since Jesus IS a Pharisee, you compliment me greatly!
>
>Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the
>outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion
>and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup
>and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Yes, yes, Jesus did disagree with a minority faction of the Pharisees.
>>>Your delusions know no bounds: Jesus was not a party to any of the
>>>perversities of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin.
>>
>> What perversions?
>> You are just making things up!
>
>But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he
>said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the
>wrath to come?
Can you answer the question?
You made an accusation and now you only quote a verse wherein a few
men are ridiculed by a prophet. I asked you to specify what
"perversities" you think that the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the
Sanhedrin commited.
>
>> It was the Sanhedrin that ruled that Jews who accepted Jesus as
>> Messiah should NOT be persecuted because He might BE the Messiah.
>> This is recorded in Acts 5:34-39. Note that the speaker, Rabban
>> Gamliel the Elder, was the leader of Beyt Hillel at the time, and Beyt
>> hillel was the majority faction of the Pharisees.
>
>and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that
>they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
>And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were
>counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. And daily in the temple, and in
>every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Yes, the guards of the Sanhedrin disobeyed the ruling of the
Sanhedrin. I notice how you dishonestly left out the actual ruling of
the Sanhedrin.
>> Yes, the Saducees were corrupt by the time of Jesus, but the Pharisees
>> were a collection of severl groups with two unifying theologies, both
>> of which were opposed by the Saducees.
>>
>> A Pharisee was a Jew who believed that there was an afterlife and that
>> each person must take responcibility for his own righteousness. This
>> is exactly what Jesus taught. there were several groups of Pharisees
>> and Jesus DID oppose some of the teachings of Beyt Shammai, but he
>> agreed with Beyt Hillel, the majority group of Pharisees.
>
>Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint
>and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
>judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave
>the other undone.
Ike, you REALLY HATE JEWS like Jesus, don't you?
We already know that a minority faction that was corrupt opposed jesus
frequently, but you really want to wallow in your hatred, don't you?
So?
That has nothing to do with the topic. The publican actually obeyed
Pharisaic theology, while the Pharisees acted like a Saducee.
So you can take a single verse out of contxt and mistranslate it at
the same time! "Dikiaonsune" the word that you translated as
"righteousness" is actually a Greek legal term describing the cut off
point between an offence to minor to convict a person for and the
point at which they become culpable. In English we use the word
"equity," which is used differently in financial circles. But in this
case we are talking about Divine judgement. A person who accidentally
violates a commandment, either through ignornce or weakness can be
forgiven. the question of "equity" is the point at which sin is
punished or forgiven. Either way the person broke the Law. Messiah
established an Equity in that by placing our faith in Him, which
includes obeying Him, we can be saved.
Yes, the NON-JEWISH Judeans said that. the actual Jews were preparing
for Passover at the Temple. The Greek text just says that they were
Judean, not Jewish.
>>>3) I am very pro-Semitic, pro-Jesus, and pro-Old Testament, but I am
>>>anti-abomination, which means anti-Pharisee, anti-Saducee, and
>>>anti-Herodian, especially when these characters come insidiously creeping
>>>in
>>>the back door to pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
>>
>> Obviously you do not know what a Herodian was. Herodians were
>> Israelite who abandoned Judaism to support the paganism and political
>> power of Herod. They were a political group and not even Jewish. In
>> many respects they are analagous to those nominal Christians who
>> abandoned the Law of God to make Christianity more popular to the
>> pagans.
>
>But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
?????
That has nothing to do with the fact that Herodians were a political
faction made up of non-Jewish Judeans
You only pasted that there because you are anti-Semitic.
>>>> In Pharisaic Judaism, grace was more important than the Law.
>>>> Christians frequently miss this concept because God was a lot more
>>>> important to the Pharisees that He is to Christians.
>
>But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
You only pasted that there because you are anti-Semitic.
It has nothing to do with Pharisaic theology, or Jews since the Jews
did not say that; nonJewish judeans did.
>>>LOL. Christians didn't "miss" the concept. It was never there to begin
>>>with.
>>
>> Your Swastika is showing again.
>> You make false assumptions and bear false witness due to your
>> anti-Semitism. I saw the filth on your website. You even promote
>> Replacement Theology.
>
>Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say
>all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Ike, You are not serving God when you hate His People.
You have proven that you are an Anti-Semite.
Your webpage is full of anti-Semitic filth.
Yes, I read it over couple of time in this discussion before
responding to your theories. You claims are not suppoerted by the
text
So, you are saying that Christians should study the Talmud (collected
oral teachings)?
Do not think that your quote in any way justifies your hatred of Jews.
Peter is NOT "Certain men"
And the dispute was the point at which a gentile can be saved.
>*************
>But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he
>was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with
>the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself,
>fearing them which were of the circumcision.
>And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also
>was carried away with their dissimulation.
That was VERY DISHONEST of you!
Those quotes were not even from the same book, but you tried to lash
them together as if they were parts of one story
He accuses Peter, correctly, or violating the Written Law
(specifically the Commandment to show respect to Gerim) so that he
could uphold a man-made custom.
You did the same dishonest thing again!
Those quotes were not even from the same book, but you tried to lash
them together as if they were parts of one story
He accuses Peter, correctly, or violating the Written Law
(specifically the Commandment to show respect to Gerim) so that he
could uphold a man-made custom.
Yes, Ike, all followers of Jesus should beware of you.
>>>I know my church and its problems, which is the beginning of healthly
>>>healing.
>>
>> Obviously, you do not since you have demonstrated racism against Jesus
>> and have rejected his teachings.
>
>I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I
>know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the
>synagogue of Satan.
Yes, Ike, you see your doom! You claim that non-Jews are really Jews.
You claim to be grafted into the Olive tree, but you are not even in
the same grove. Your roots are sunk deeply into the paganism od
Babylon.
>
>>>You, however, don't know your own.
>>
>> I know that you bear false witness.
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>He takes none of the marginalists from Laodicea (1/7)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nominal Christians (Christmas and Easter only)
>>>>>
>>>>>Worse than that.
>>>>>
>>>>>Those who dismiss the authority of scripture (especially the New
>>>>>Testament
>>>>>in lieu of a reinterpretation of the Old Testament) the divinity of
>>>>>Christ,
>>>>>they bring universalistic doctrines into the church, etc.
>>>>
>>>> The New and Old Testaments completely agree with each other.
>>>> Since both are the word of God, and God never lies and never makes
>>>> mistakes, they cannot disagree on even a tiny point.
>>>
>>>The New and Old Testament are opposite sides of the same coin (for now).
>>
>> No, both teach salvation by grace and righteousness through actions.
>
>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
>the gift of God:
Yes. Old testament and New teach that same message, but you only got
part of it.
>
>>>The age of law has passed.
>>
>> That is not in the Bible.
>> Satan might say a thing like that, but it opposes what jesus said and
>> what the entire Bible says.
>
>For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is
>no law.
>Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not
>sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of
>him that was to come.
>But not as the offence, so also is the FREE gift. For if through the offence
>of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,
>which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
>And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was
>by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto
>justification.
>For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which
>receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in
>life by one, Jesus Christ.
So, you have no Biblical justification for your mythical "age of law"
or its supposed end.
You just grabbed a random quote about grace and think that the
opposition that the Disciple had to the Gentile/Pagan dogma of
Legalism somehow countermands jesus' assertion that the Law is still
in effect???
Sorry, no one is stupid enough to believe that!
That quote does not adderss the topic, so i can only suspect that you
feel that taking it out of context will somehow villify al jews, even
Jesus.
Ike, you are a sick sick racist.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:47:33 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
>
>Yes, we can tell by what He said to them...
>
>"You are of your father the Devil and the lusts of your
>father you will do." - John 8:44a
He was addressing members of Beyt Shammai at the time.
They did oppose His teachings and thus attacked His valididty as a
teacher.
>
>
>>He could not
>>even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
>>with His theology.
>
>Really?
>
>Is that why He was crucified, as they shouted for it
>to happen?
He was crusifyed by Romans for political insurrection (being King of
the Jews) the Sanhedrin never even tried him. Ciaphas held a midnight
meeting on the 14th on Nissan because those Pharisees who agreed with
Jesus would be too busy going about Passover preparations to notice
Ciaphas' actions. Since he did not have the votes for a conviction,
he could not execute jesus, but he was sneaky enough to trick Pilate
into doing the deed.
The crowd that called for Jesus' execution were not Jewish, if they
had been they would be at the temple getting ready for Passover. the
Greek text says that they were Judeans.
>
>Is that why they said to Pilate that by their law, He
>was worthy of death?
>
One man said that and God struck him dead six months later for
entering the Holy of Holies without the right to do so.
>
>>God said that man COULD keep the Commandments. In Deiteronomy
>>30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
>
>No, God did not say that.
Yes, he did!
>And if it were so easy,
>people would have.
No they would not!
It is easy not to eat pork, but christians do that evil action all the
time! People sin because they choose evil over good.
>You must think God the fool,
>for setting up all of those sacrifices, when it was
>so easy to keep the Law.
You must BE a fool if you think all the Offerings were for salvation.
And there was never an offering to atone for rejecting the
Commandments (Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).
You seem to think that God was a fool who would establish a Law that
no one could obey.
>
>Do you also practice animal sacrifices?
You obviously do not read Hebrew!
Animal offerings are not Commandments.
The Bible allows animals to be used but mentions another technique
without explaining what it will be. The Oral Law states that when
messiah comes prayer and praise take the place of animal blood. So
the Ancient Jews knew more about Messiah than a christian "pastor."
your question was foolish to begin with since even if you do not know
Jesus is the Messiah you should know that Offerings can only be given
on the Temple Mount so there is no Temple in which to give offerings.
Sadly you attempt to trip me up exposes your ignorance of Jesus' role
as the offering to provide our salvation. at this point in time we
can obey thos Commandment by accepting that jesus shed His blood for
our sins and praying for forgivness.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:45:18 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:21:56 GMT, Pastor Dave
>><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:49:55 -0400, Aaron
>>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Would you please cite the passage where Paul tells
>>>>>the Ephesians they are converts to Judaism?
>>>>
>>>>Ephesians 4:17
>>>
>>>"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
>>>henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the
>>>vanity of their mind," - Ephesians 4:17
>>
>>Yep! Now that they have converted, they no longer do Pagan things.
>
>Which has nothing to do with being Jewish.
LOL
Pagan things would be anything that was not part of Judaism.
>
>
>>>That doesn't say a word about them being Jewish.
>>
>>There were TWO choices: Jewish or Gentile.
>
>And this means what? Gentiles are not pagan by nature.
>I am a Gentile and I am not a pagan.
Gentiles were Pagan by culture and religion.
So far you have not demonstarted any such non-paganism.
>
>
>>They abandoned Paganism and converted to Judaism.
>
>If they had done that, they would have been violating
>the Gospel.
Jesus never told Simon the canaanite or Judas Escariot to go to
another religion or eat unclean foods or anything like that even
though they were Gentile.
>Paul dealt with those who were coming
>into the church in Galatia and telling people that they
>had to convert to Judaism.
The book of Galatians deal with Gentiles who had accepted jesus
rejecting Him to convert to saducaic Judaism.
the text satates that the people causing trouble were not part of the
followers of messiah in 4:17. Their insistance on Circumsicion mean
that they were either beyt Shammai or the Saducees. Then in 5:12 Paul
says that he wishes they would castrate themselves. The Saducees ran
the Temple, and Paul offered animal offerings there, as mentioned in
Acts 21:26. His remark as not a tempertantrum. Eunuchs were not
allowed to serve in the Temple, even if their injury was the result of
an accident. So, Paul is stating that he wishes that they did not
have the power that they had.
Dave, you have faild to prove your point again. You make claims based
on your own opinion but cannot validate them with biblical proof.
***SNIP***
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:47:26 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>Since there are just the two options: Jewish (according to the Bible),
>
>No, the two options are believer and unbeliever.
Satan is a believer
It is the walk that makes the difference. Satan believes that Jesus is
the Mssiah, but Satan does not OBEY Jesus or the Commandments.
>
>"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
>all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
The three pairs must all be interpreted the same way.
Physically, there are men and women, master and slaves, anbd Jews and
Gentiles.
Spiritually, there are commandments that only apply to men and some
that onlt apply to women. (Since some of these are stated in Paul's
writings there can be no doubt about their currenbt validity,) There
are commandments that only apply to masters and some that apply to
slaves. (Again, since some of these are stated in Paul's writings
there can be no doubt about their currenbt validity.) There are
commandmants that only apply to Jews. so spiritually there are men and
women, master and slaves, anbd Jews and Gentiles.
With respect to Salvation: there is only one way to be saved.
>
>Romans 2:10-11
>
>10) But glory, honor, and peace, to every man
>that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to
>the Gentile:
>11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
If you believe that quote, then there is no justification for any
nonJudaic worship, custome, or lifestyle among Gentiles; they would
all be converts to Judiasm.
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:5nd0j19nki7nhkah0...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:16:08 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
>> <Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>Mr 13:9-11 et al.
>>>
>>> "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to
>>> councils;
>>>and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before
>>>rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel
>>>must first be published among all nations.
>>> "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
>>>beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever
>>>shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that
>>>speak,
>>>but the Holy Ghost."
>>>
>>
>> Yes, Jesus did warn of the Tribulation, but the Greek word "sunedrion"
>> can mean more things that just the Sanhedrin. The Greek can refer to
>> any religious tribunal (court) by any religion, including
>> Christianity.
>
>Kind of skipped over the word "synagogue," but that was to be expected.
To uses "synagogue" I would also have to include "church,"
"Cathedral," "Kinddom hall," "Abbey," and a host of others, so I stuck
to the actual meaning not to your choice of words.
>
>[snip]
>
>> Ike, I know that you are a racist and that you do not believe what
>> Paul wrote in Romans, but you really look silly now!
>
>I know precisely what Paul wrote in Romans: God will remove half of the
>"branches" of the original olive tree (Judaism), and cast down those that
>defile the truth (such as yourself) while upholding the Jews who are Jews
>indeed. Moreover, God will replace those lost branches with branches from
>the "wild olive tree," i.e. the Gentile believers, i.e. Christians, bringing
>grace into the great equation.
He also wrote that ALL the Jews would be saved ans all the Jews are
all the Jews.
>
>So it's not a matter of your false claims of "racism" or "Nazism." It's a
>matter of God saving the truth-telling humble and contrite Jews, such as the
>patriarchs of the Old Testament, versus God casting down the manipulative
>and hateful Pharisees (such as yoursef), Saducees, and Herodians (whom Jesus
>despised) into the bowels of the earth.
>
>Hence, I do not have a problem with "Jews who are Jews indeed." I have a
>problem with "Jews who are not Jews" (such as yourself) that John prophesied
>would greatly torment the churches in the last days.
Ike, all the Jews all the physiacl descendants of Abraham Isaac and
Jacob will be saved. That is what it says and it is true.
You use double talk because you hate Jews.
>
>Just another sign of the coming times, I guess.
>
>Only a liar of the umpteenth magnitude, a base deceit, a spawn of the unholy
>trinity itself would ever make the claim that "Jesus was a Pharisee."
Ike that is an extremely racist and dishonest thing to say. i have
proven that Jesus IS a pharisee. You are just too evil to admit it.
You ahte Jesus for being a Jew and a Pharisee, so you attempt to
reinvent Him. This make you an idolater.
>
>Ike
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>Paul dealt with those who were coming
>>into the church in Galatia and telling people that they
>>had to convert to Judaism.
>
>The book of Galatians deal with Gentiles who had accepted jesus
>rejecting Him to convert to saducaic Judaism.
No, it does not. It deals with people being mislead by
false teachers who said the same thing you are, which
is that in addition to being believers, they ALSO had
be converted to Judaism.
>Dave, you have faild to prove your point again.
>You make claims based on your own opinion
>but cannot validate them with biblical proof.
Is that why I quoted Scripture that proved exactly
what I said?
Fact: This issue was dealt with at the first Council.
Read Acts 15.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:56:12 GMT, Pastor Dave
><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:47:33 -0400, Aaron
>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>>And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
>>
>>Yes, we can tell by what He said to them...
>>
>>"You are of your father the Devil and the lusts of your
>>father you will do." - John 8:44a
>
>He was addressing members of Beyt Shammai at the time.
>They did oppose His teachings and thus attacked His valididty as a
>teacher.
You were wrong. And you assume to know a lot more than
the texts say.
>>>He could not
>>>even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
>>>with His theology.
>>
>>Really?
>>
>>Is that why He was crucified, as they shouted for it
>>to happen?
>
>He was crusifyed by Romans for political insurrection (being King of
>the Jews) the Sanhedrin never even tried him. Ciaphas held a midnight
>meeting on the 14th on Nissan because those Pharisees who agreed with
>Jesus would be too busy going about Passover preparations to notice
>Ciaphas' actions. Since he did not have the votes for a conviction,
>he could not execute jesus, but he was sneaky enough to trick Pilate
>into doing the deed.
They did try him, illegally and you have not answered
my question. Why did the JEWS shout for Him to be
crucified and force the issue with Pilate?
>The crowd that called for Jesus' execution were not Jewish,
Okay, you have proved that you are either truly stupid,
or you wish to intentionally change the Bible.
John 18:12-13,24,28
12) Then the band and the captain and officers of the
Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
13) And led him away to Annas first; for he was father
in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same
year.
24) Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the
high priest.
28) Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of
judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went
not into the judgment hall, lest they should be
defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
John 19:6-7
6) When the chief priests therefore and officers saw
him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him:
for I find no fault in him.
7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by
our law he ought to die, because he made himself
the Son of God.
>>Is that why they said to Pilate that by their law, He
>>was worthy of death?
>>
>One man said that and God struck him dead six months later for
>entering the Holy of Holies without the right to do so.
I quoted it above and you are being foolish.
It says, "THE JEWS".
>>>God said that man COULD keep the Commandments. In Deiteronomy
>>>30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
>>
>>No, God did not say that.
>
>Yes, he did!
Quote it.
>>And if it were so easy,
>>people would have.
>
>No they would not!
Yes, they would.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:40:40 GMT, Pastor Dave
><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:47:26 -0400, Aaron
>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>
>>
>>>Since there are just the two options: Jewish (according to the Bible),
>>
>>No, the two options are believer and unbeliever.
>
>Satan is a believer
Intellectually.
>It is the walk that makes the difference.
I did not say one word about Christians living sinful
lives.
>>"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>>nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
>>all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
>
>The three pairs must all be interpreted the same way.
It says what it says.
>With respect to Salvation: there is only one way to be saved.
That is correct. By grace, through faith, as the Bible
says. Ephesians 2:8-9.
>>Romans 2:10-11
>>
>>10) But glory, honor, and peace, to every man
>>that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to
>>the Gentile:
>>11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
>
>If you believe that quote, then there is no justification for any
>nonJudaic worship, custome, or lifestyle among Gentiles; they would
>all be converts to Judiasm.
That was a very stupid statement. It says, "and ALSO
to the Gentiles". What it does NOT say, is for
Gentiles to convert to Judaism.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless."
Which does not automatically mean, "without Torah".
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
[snip]
You've been well told.
Ike
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
Yes, Christians who are not Christians (beasts of the "sea") conspiring with
Jews who are not Jews (beasts of the "earth," such as yourself) in council
and synagogue alike, trying the believers maintain sola fide, sola
scriptura, sola kyrios, etc. etc.
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Ike, I know that you are a racist and that you do not believe what
>>> Paul wrote in Romans, but you really look silly now!
>>
>>I know precisely what Paul wrote in Romans: God will remove half of the
>>"branches" of the original olive tree (Judaism), and cast down those that
>>defile the truth (such as yourself) while upholding the Jews who are Jews
>>indeed. Moreover, God will replace those lost branches with branches from
>>the "wild olive tree," i.e. the Gentile believers, i.e. Christians,
>>bringing
>>grace into the great equation.
>
> He also wrote that ALL the Jews would be saved ans all the Jews are
> all the Jews.
"some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
>>So it's not a matter of your false claims of "racism" or "Nazism." It's a
>>matter of God saving the truth-telling humble and contrite Jews, such as
>>the
>>patriarchs of the Old Testament, versus God casting down the manipulative
>>and hateful Pharisees (such as yoursef), Saducees, and Herodians (whom
>>Jesus
>>despised) into the bowels of the earth.
>>
>>Hence, I do not have a problem with "Jews who are Jews indeed." I have a
>>problem with "Jews who are not Jews" (such as yourself) that John
>>prophesied
>>would greatly torment the churches in the last days.
>
> Ike, all the Jews all the physiacl descendants of Abraham Isaac and
> Jacob will be saved. That is what it says and it is true.
> You use double talk because you hate Jews.
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
>>Just another sign of the coming times, I guess.
>>
>>Only a liar of the umpteenth magnitude, a base deceit, a spawn of the
>>unholy
>>trinity itself would ever make the claim that "Jesus was a Pharisee."
>
> Ike that is an extremely racist and dishonest thing to say. i have
> proven that Jesus IS a pharisee. You are just too evil to admit it.
> You ahte Jesus for being a Jew and a Pharisee, so you attempt to
> reinvent Him. This make you an idolater.
You haven't proven anything except for your own ability to deceive yourself.
Jesus was the most Jewish of Jews, but He was no Pharisee.
You, however, are the antithesis is that proves the thesis.
Shaqad
I know it seems like its too hard to keep the commandments, the Jews
must feel overwhelmed like you, like there are 613 commandments!.. But
the truth is, ( that not one has mentioned in this thread ) is that
Jesus gave 7 commandments:
Someone asked Jesus "what good thing shall I do, that I may have
eternal life"? ..Jesus said "keep the commandments". They asked "Which
ones?" and mentioned 6 that are unique to loving other people, even 7:
*Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
*Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep
the commandments.
*Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness,
*Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
__
Which of the 10 did Jesus leave out, and why?
1. Don't try to put nothing above God because there is nothing above
him.
Why? When Moses wrote this, thats what the heathens did, but by Jesus
time it was made known that this is foolishness, and Jesus foreseen the
time when it would not be such a rampid problem.
2. Don't worship statues made of wood or anything else, and call them
your God!
Why? A long time ago idiots did that, not so much anymore. It was
plain stupid to do so, and Christ foreseen the day when it would not be
so common and accepted, or such a big problem as it was 100s of years
before Christ.
(3) Don't use the name of Jehova your God irreverently, nor use it to
swear to a falsehood.You will not escape punishment if you do.
Why? Because God sent his Holy Spirit in Jesus time, to cut both ways,
the Holy Spirit now becoming a most Holy presence that moves and cuts
to the heart of the speaker of such foolishness. Jesus said anything we
might say to offend the name of Jehovah or Jehoshua may be forgiven us,
but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
I venture to say that this practise of swearing to falsehoods in the
name of the LORD was not such common practice in Jesus' time either,
because the Holy Spirit would convict the swearer.
4. Remember the Sabbath, keep it Holy and rest.
Why? The Sabbath was not given for God to demand praise on a certain
day, but for Mankind to keep their minds on God, remember all he has
done and made...and rest. Jesus became our rest from the burden of the
Law. And in believing (trusting) upon Christ as a rememberance of the
greatest work of God for mankind, redemption of souls, Christ is even
greater than the Sabbath.
__
So listen up you Jew of Judaism, and beast of burdens, you who are
overwhelmed with 613 traditions of men, and even you God-less
heathens...It is not so hard to please God, just 7 fair requests were
made, and it is as easy as loving other people, because if you love
your neighbor (everyone), you will not murder them, sleep with their
spouse, steal from them, lie to them, or even purposely bring shame to
your mom and dad...if you truly love them as Christ loved us.
And if you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind like Christ
asked, you will not seek to offend him, put anything above him, or use
his name irreverently by swearing to falsehoods in the name of the good
LORD.
If you mess up--fess up, take responsibility, ask to be forgiven, and
just for the asking in Jesus' name with a sincere heart, being sorry
for that sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we
confess them to the LORD in prayer.
(No need to buy a lamb and sacrifice it anymore, Jesus became that
Lamb of God, a final sin offering for mankind. There is no other name
which we may call upon for the forgiveness of sins, and there is no
forgiveness of sins without Christ.)
__
PS...HARPAZO!
Those who are alive and remain shall be "Caught up" we read, "Caught
up to be with the Lord" is an expression for putting off the flesh, and
so it will be, ALL flesh shall be changed. This is one scripture that
tells us of a "Rapture", but the word rapture is not used, IT IS CALLED
"The Harpazo"!
G726
harpazo¯
har-pad'-zo
>From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch
(away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
G726
harpazo¯
Total KJV Occurrences: 18
"caught", 5
Act_8:39, 2Co_12:2, 2Co_12:4, 1Th_4:17, Rev_12:5
"force", 3
Mat_11:12, Joh_6:15, Act_23:10
"take", 3
Mat_11:12, Joh_6:15, Act_23:10
"away", 2
Mat_13:19, Act_8:39
"catcheth", 2
Mat_13:19, Joh_10:12
"pluck", 2
Joh_10:28-29 (2)
"pulling", 1
Jud_1:23
If we indeed go by the Bible and not teachings of men or crazy old
ladys, we should say "THE HARPAZO", not "The Rapture". This is
Biblical, and this is truth.
Shaqad
__
Download a FREE e-Bible from http://www.e-sword.net , it works on/off
line and has many helpful features. Many versions, many languages, most
helpful. the Sword of the Lord with an electronic edge.
Check out my website concerning many mysteries within the Revelation
and more:
*The Oracles* (0xxx]www.angelfire.com/oz2/shaqad>
Pss... Dear person, He wants to tell you something:
http://www.homewithgod.com/Cards/fathersloveletter.shtml
(free video presentation)
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
Ike, I notice that you decietfully fail to cite the book chapter and
verse for your "quotes." Obviously you are attempting to take verses
out of context.
Ike, I am not sure what you are attempting to say.
All that was actually obvious is that you hate Jews.
You disagree with me so you use "Jew" as if it was an insult. Them
when I say that I am not insulted you say "Jews who are not Jews" to
try to cover your bases. You are too ridiculous a figure for your
words to insult me. You hate the fact that Jesus is a Pharisee so
much that you make yourself look foolish when the fact is proven and
you try to make Jesus seem like an anti-Semite. You are using the
same lies that the Nazis used, and we all think that they were sick,
stupid and evil. Maybe you should reevaluate your beliefs before you
type thing you will later regret. I can only assume that you are
jealous of Jews. I know that Hitler was very jealous of Jews.
>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>> Ike, I know that you are a racist and that you do not believe what
>>>> Paul wrote in Romans, but you really look silly now!
>>>
>>>I know precisely what Paul wrote in Romans: God will remove half of the
>>>"branches" of the original olive tree (Judaism), and cast down those that
>>>defile the truth (such as yourself) while upholding the Jews who are Jews
>>>indeed. Moreover, God will replace those lost branches with branches from
>>>the "wild olive tree," i.e. the Gentile believers, i.e. Christians,
>>>bringing
>>>grace into the great equation.
>>
>> He also wrote that ALL the Jews would be saved ans all the Jews are
>> all the Jews.
>
>"some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Romans 11:26 says, "And so in this way all Israel will be saved as it
has been written, 'the Deliverer will come out if Zion and He will
turn away ungodliness from Jacob'." So, according to Paul, Jesus'
role as Messiah hinges upon His ability to save all of Israel. Note
that in Romans 11, Paul make it very clear that "Israel" is the
physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and does not exclude
Jews who did nor accept Jesus as Messiah. A lot of men have made a
lot of money writing books to explain this, but no one has been able
to put forth anything more than a theory, so I will not attempt to
explain how this will work, we will know it when we see it.
>
>>>So it's not a matter of your false claims of "racism" or "Nazism." It's a
>>>matter of God saving the truth-telling humble and contrite Jews, such as
>>>the
>>>patriarchs of the Old Testament, versus God casting down the manipulative
>>>and hateful Pharisees (such as yoursef), Saducees, and Herodians (whom
>>>Jesus
>>>despised) into the bowels of the earth.
>>>
>>>Hence, I do not have a problem with "Jews who are Jews indeed." I have a
>>>problem with "Jews who are not Jews" (such as yourself) that John
>>>prophesied
>>>would greatly torment the churches in the last days.
>>
>> Ike, all the Jews all the physiacl descendants of Abraham Isaac and
>> Jacob will be saved. That is what it says and it is true.
>> You use double talk because you hate Jews.
>"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
Yes, and Jew who converts to Christainity betrays the Covenant that he
already made with God, and rejects the New Testament teaching that
Jews must remain Jews. To embrace Christian theology, a Jew must
blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
>
>>>Just another sign of the coming times, I guess.
>>>
>>>Only a liar of the umpteenth magnitude, a base deceit, a spawn of the
>>>unholy
>>>trinity itself would ever make the claim that "Jesus was a Pharisee."
>>
>> Ike that is an extremely racist and dishonest thing to say. I have
>> proven that Jesus IS a pharisee. You are just too evil to admit it.
>> You ahte Jesus for being a Jew and a Pharisee, so you attempt to
>> reinvent Him. This make you an idolater.
>
>You haven't proven anything except for your own ability to deceive yourself.
Ike, you know that you are lying.
Jesus taught the two defining theologies of Pharisaic Judaism.
1: There is an Afterlife
2: Each person is responcible for his own spiritual life.
>
>Jesus was the most Jewish of Jews, but He was no Pharisee.
He Taught Pharisaic theology.
He quoted the Golden Rule written by Rabbi Hillel, the founder of the
Pharisaic school of though, Beyt Hillel, the most numerous of the
various groups of Pharisees. He agreed with the theologies of Beyt
Hillel. Rabban Gamliel the Elder even refused to denounce the
possibility that Jesus was the Messiah. Many of Jesus' teachings
addressed disputes among the houses of Pharisaic Judaism on how the
Torah should be interpreted in various matter. Healing of Sabbath was
one such argument between Beyt Hillel who agreed with Jesus and Beyt
Shammai who opposed Him.
Either you are too filled with hatred to admit the truth, or you are
ignorant of the fact that there were several different groups of
Pharisees and that only one of these is know to have opposed jesus and
thus been opposed by Him.
>
>You, however, are the antithesis is that proves the thesis.
Ike, your attempt at a personal attack does not make any sense. even
if i was as reactionary as you are, I would be too confused by your
gibberish to be offended.
>
>>>Ike
Aaron
<Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>"Aaron" <an...@home.net> wrote in message
>news:b4k0j1hf3euee62m0...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:21:14 -0500, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
>> <Xeickleb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>You've been well told.
Ike that is hardly a gracious way to admit that you were wrong.
You should be happy that I was able to educate you.
...or maybe you meant something silly by that vague statement.
>
>Ike
>
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:49:33 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:56:12 GMT, Pastor Dave
>><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:47:33 -0400, Aaron
>>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>
>>>
>>>>And yet Jesus agreed with the Majority of the Pharisees.
>>>
>>>Yes, we can tell by what He said to them...
>>>
>>>"You are of your father the Devil and the lusts of your
>>>father you will do." - John 8:44a
>>
>>He was addressing members of Beyt Shammai at the time.
>>They did oppose His teachings and thus attacked His valididty as a
>>teacher.
>
>You were wrong. And you assume to know a lot more than
>the texts say.
No, if you actually knew what was going on in Israel at the time, it
would be obvious to you too. The historical backgroud is vaguely
covered in some histories, but specific theologies are discussed in
full in the Talmud. The Talmud was the product of Pharisaic Judaism
adapting to become modern rabbinical (Orthodox) Judaism. They
attacked him for supporting the theologies of Beyt Hillel and opposing
Beyt Shammai.
Beyt Shammai said you needed two witenesses for certain prayers so
they prayed publically. Beyt Hillel and Jesus said that only God
really needs to hear you pray and that making your personal prayers
public distracts you from their meaning.
Beyt Shammai said that rendering medical assitance on Sabbath was a
violation of Sabbath because a person might pay you for your help
being as doctors were paid professionals. Beyt Hillel and Jesus said
that we are required to alliviate pain and suffering and to protect
human life no matter what day it is. jesus even proved that He was
correct by using obviously divine power to heal on Sabbath.
Beyt Shammai said that if you hate someone and lie in wait to ambush
him with a rock bigger than your fist, and strike him from behind, if
he goes into a coma instead of dieing you are not a murderer because
his heart did not stop. Beyt Hillel and Jesus said that if you hate
somone enough to want to pick up the rock, you are laready a murderer.
In Matthew 23 Jesus condemns certain Pharisees for wearing Tzitziyot
and Tfillin made in the manner of Beyt Shammai and against the manner
described in the Oral Law as recorded in the Talmud.
The pattern continues like this across the board.
>
>
>>>>He could not
>>>>even be convicted in the Sanhedrin because too many Pharisees agreed
>>>>with His theology.
>>>
>>>Really?
>>>
>>>Is that why He was crucified, as they shouted for it
>>>to happen?
>>
>>He was crusifyed by Romans for political insurrection (being King of
>>the Jews) the Sanhedrin never even tried him. Ciaphas held a midnight
>>meeting on the 14th on Nissan because those Pharisees who agreed with
>>Jesus would be too busy going about Passover preparations to notice
>>Ciaphas' actions. Since he did not have the votes for a conviction,
>>he could not execute jesus, but he was sneaky enough to trick Pilate
>>into doing the deed.
>
>They did try him, illegally and you have not answered
>my question. Why did the JEWS shout for Him to be
>crucified and force the issue with Pilate?
First: the Sanhedrin only met durring daylight hours, and not on the
fourteenth of Nissan at all. there was no trial, just trick questions
and accusations from two minority groups. Had there been an actual
trial, Jesus would have been stoned to death.
Second: Your question was WRONG. The Jews did NOT shout for Jesus to
be crusified, the Judeans did. It is a similar word in Greek, but a
different one. "Ioudaioi" is "Judeans," and "ioudaiôn" is Jews. Of
course, the context precludes the Jews from being there to do the
shouting.
>
>
>>The crowd that called for Jesus' execution were not Jewish,
>
>Okay, you have proved that you are either truly stupid,
>or you wish to intentionally change the Bible.
Dave, your statement proves that you are using a translation instead
of the Bible.
>
>John 18:12-13,24,28
>
>12) Then the band and the captain and officers of the
>Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
>13) And led him away to Annas first; for he was father
>in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same
>year.
>24) Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the
>high priest.
>28) Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of
>judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went
>not into the judgment hall, lest they should be
>defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
No mention of any trial before the Sanhedrin here.
>
>John 19:6-7
>
>6) When the chief priests therefore and officers saw
>him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
>Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him:
>for I find no fault in him.
So Pilate and a few of his Sadducees were there among the Gentiles in
the crowd. And six months later God killed Pilate for entering the
Holy of Holies when he was not the legitimate High Priest.
>7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by
>our law he ought to die, because he made himself
>the Son of God.
Dave, you are using a translation instead of a Bible!
The Greek text does not say "ioudaiôn (Jews); it says "ioudaioi
(Judeans)."
>
>
>>>Is that why they said to Pilate that by their law, He
>>>was worthy of death?
>>>
>>One man said that and God struck him dead six months later for
>>entering the Holy of Holies without the right to do so.
>
>I quoted it above and you are being foolish.
>It says, "THE JEWS".
Dave, you are either being dishonest, or foolish.
I hope that you are not really a "pastor" because I though that
pastors had to learn some Greek, but maybe that is not true in your
denomination.
I have already shown that the Greek does not say "ioudaiôn (Jews).
The Greek says "ioudaioi (Judeans)."
Dave, Certainly, we both agree that Caiaphas was corrupt and that he
lied about Jesus to his own people when he accused Jesus of blasphemy.
Is it so hard for you to believe that a man who would lie to his own
people would also lie to the leader of a military force occupying his
country, a pagan whose hand Caiaphas would not even shake?
>
>
>>>>God said that man COULD keep the Commandments. In Deiteronomy
>>>>30:10-14, it says that it is easy to keep all 613 Commandmants.
>>>
>>>No, God did not say that.
>>
>>Yes, he did!
>
>Quote it.
"When you listen to the voice of THE LORD, your God, to observe Hid
Commandments and His Decrees, that are written in this Scroll of the
Torah, when you shall return to THE LORD, your God, with all your
Heart and all your soul. For this Commandment that I command you
today - it is not hidden from you and it is not distant. It is not in
Heaven for you to say, 'Who can ascend to the heaven for us and take
it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?' Nor is it
across the Sea for you to say, "Who can cross to the other side of the
sea for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform
it?' Rather the matter is very near to you - in your mouth and heart
to perform it."
>
>
>>>And if it were so easy,
>>>people would have.
>>
>>No they would not!
Restoring what you dishonestly snipped without notation:
It is easy not to eat pork, but christians do that evil action all the
time! People sin because they choose evil over good.
>
>Yes, they would.
Dave, you could easily obey the Commandmants if you wished to. It
would not violate your beliefs to obey the Commandments even if you do
not believe that you are required to do so. You could choose to do so
to demonstrate love for God.
You choose to violate them.
The fact that you are so opposed to obeying God's Commandments
disproves your claim.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:05:50 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>No one is saying that. Liberty does not equal license
>>>and it is dishonest of you to say that someone is
>>>saying that.
>>
>>The vast majority of Christianity says just that!
>>They wear shatznez, eat pork, celebrate Christmas and Easter, violate
>>the Sabbath, pray to Jesus, take communion and many other evil things
>>that God forbids.
>
>According to you.
And Jesus!
>
>Acts 15:23-29
LOL,
I have already correct Ike for dishonestly going to a letter rather
than the decision that the letter be written, the ACTUAL ruleing and
leaving out the context, and you try the same thing with the same
verses, completely skipping Acts 15:19-21
"Dio egô krinô mê parenochlein tois apo tôn ethnôn epistrephousin epi
ton theon, alla episteilai autois tou apechesthai apo tôn alisgêmatôn
tôn eidôlôn kai tês porneias kai tou pniktou kai tou aimatos, môusês
môsês gar ek geneôn archaiôn kata polin tous kêrussontas auton echei
en tais sunagôgais kata pan sabbaton anaginôskomenos."
("Because of this, I give judgement: not to trouble those from the
Gentiles converting to God, but to write to them to abstain from
defilement of idols, from sexual sin, from starangled [animals], and
from blood, because Moses has from ancient generations had those
proclaiming his [Prophecy/Torah], being read in the synagogues every
Sabbath.")
So the new believers learned the Commandments in their synagogues at
their own pace without being treatened with damnation. Yes, you left
out the context and the actual question. The discussion was not about
whether or not to obey God's Commandmants; it was about whether or
not somone who did not know the Law yet could still be saved. The
Sanhedrin had theorized that a Goy became a Ger, and thus saved, after
demonstrating that he knew all 613 Commandmants, could read and write
Hebrew, and knew the techniques for obeying the Commandments. They
were working without all the facts, so their mistake is
understandable, but wrong in ligt of what Jesus taught. From Jesus'
teachings we know that the intention to learn and obey the Law is
sufficient to become a Ger.
Besides all this, do you actually believe that a group of rabbis, even
those trained by Jesus Himself would have the authority to countermand
Jesus' command that all of His followers obey all of the Commandmants
until Heaven and earth are destroyed and all prophecies accomplished?
Since none of these three things has yet occured, there is no reason
to believe that we are not obliged to obey the Commandments.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:55:51 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless."
>
>Which does not automatically mean, "without Torah".
If we are talking about religeous matter it does since that is the
ONLY Law that God gave humanity. Jesus taught the Torah with
particular attention to areas where the Pharisees of his day argued
among themselves about the correct meaning, but He did not anull or
add to the Commandments.
try re-reading:
The Greek word used in the Greek translations of the New Testament is
"nomos." "Nomos" is also used in the Septuagint to translate the
Hebrew word "Torah" (Instruction). Several times in the New
Testament, the word "nomos" appears with an "a-" prefix attached to
it, making a new word: "anomos." In Greek, the "a-" prefix means
"no," "not," or "without."
The Greek word "anomos," means "without law," or "lawless." Sometimes
the word appears in the New Testament in its noun form: "anomia" or
"anomian." You may recognize this as the source for the English word
"anomian" orits more common form "antinomian" Webster's Dictionary
defines an antinomian as "one who holds that under the gosple
dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because
faith alone is necessary to salvation."
I have heard many Christians promote this theology, even if they did
not know what the term for it is. When you consider what the Bible
says about Antinomians and Antinomianism, it is hard to see how anyone
would want to follow this doctrine. Let's look at a few places where
the Bible discusses Antinomianism.
Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the
Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy
in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform
many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces,
‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers against the
Commandmants'!" (Matt 7:21-23)
Here the Son of God describes a multitude of people ("many," he said,
not just a small handfull of cult-members) who find them selves
excluded from the Kingdom. Who are these people? It certainly cannot
be Atheists, Hindus, Islamics, or Buddhists who are being talked about
here. The people being talked about here call Jesus "Lord" and even
do good works in His name. These are Church people involved in Church
activities. They expect to inherit eternal life, but are stunned to
fing themselves excluded from the Kingdom. The "Jesus" that they
thought they knew was obviously a counterfeit Messiah. What is the
proof that they never really knew Him? They were Antinomians -
"worker of lawlessness."
Yshu`a spoke again of Antinomians in the parable of the wheat and the
tares. The tares (those who belong to the Evil One) grow alongside
the wheat (the people who belong to the Kingdom) until harvest time,
when the Angels are sent forth to "collect out of his Kingdom all the
things that cause people to sin and all those who practice lawlessness
(the Greek text uses the word "anomian")" (Matt 13:41) Throughout the
history of Christianity, the wheat and the tares have been side by
side, and it is often dificult to tell which is which. However, as
the harvest comes near, it will become more appearent which people are
wheat and which are tares. The Antinomians are the tares, Jesus told
us. The have been in His Kingdom for a long time, and soon He will
send forth His malachim (angels/messangers) to rid His Kingdom of
Antinomianism.
Paul wrote about a great "falling away" ("apostasia," departure from
the truth) that was to come. this falling away was not just refering
to some event in the distant future. Paul described the falling away
as "the mystery of iniquity (anomias, "lawlessness")," and said that
this "secret power of lawlessness" was "already at work," and that the
"wicked (anomos)" would be revealed (2Thes. 2:7). Since "anomos" is
an adjective, many translators provide a noun and render this as "the
Wicked One" or "the Lawless One," having in mind an end-time
"Anti-Chist" figure. While it is possible that there may be some
reference here to the Anti-Christ, the word "anomos" more likely is
refering to Lawless Theology (Antinomianism) which caused the Church
to depart from the Torah, the Word of God, and go into apostasy, or
possibly both. The error of Antinomianism , the "secret power of
lawlessness," is being exposed in our generation. Many Christians are
waking up and returning to Torah, to G-d's word. The secret power of
lawlessness is no longer secret to these people who love Messiah.
When the secret is out lawlessness losses its grip over these people.
The root of the Christian Church's apostasy has been her rejection of
the Torah. Perhaps it would be fairer and more accurtae to say that
the Church rejected those elements of the Bible that seemed "too
Jewish" for her. The transgression of any of God's Commandments is
wrong, though, because "sin is the transgression of the Torah (God's
instructions) (1 John 3:4). When we violate God's Torah, we sin.
Is there any hope for people who are part of a Church that has been
Apostatae for almost all of her history? Deliverance from the spirit
of lawlessness come by the grace of God, but it is a grace that
teaches us to honor God's Torah, not a grace that teaches us to be
Antinomians.
"For God’s grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all
people. It teaches us to renounce godlessness and worldly pleasures,
and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives now, in this age;
while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain
hope, which is the appearing of the Sh'khinah (Divine Presence) of our
great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yshu`a the Messiah. He
gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation
of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager
to do good" (Titus 2:11-14).
A grace which does not teach us to honor God's Torah is NOT the Grace
of God, and a savior who does not redeem us from evil (Antinomianism)
is not the true Savior, but a counterfeit "Christ" who cannot save.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:09:45 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>>>>Thus anyone who follows Jesus MUST obey all 613 Commandmants.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's not what Jesus said at all. He said to keep
>>>>>His Commandments. He gave two.
>>>>
>>>>In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus says that all 613 Commandmants will be in
>>>>effect and must be obeyed until Heaven and Earth are destroyed.
>>>
>>>No, He did not. Those words are not found there.
>>>You changed them.
>>
>>"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
>>have come not to abolish but to complete.
>
>And when it is complete, that's it.
>
>
>>Obviously, I did NOT change them.
>
>Obviously, you did. It doesn't say, "Torah".
The Original Hebrew did!
Do you honestly think he spoke English to a crowd of People in Galilee
where they only spoke Hebrew? Even the Greek text uses Ton Nomon (the
Law (proper noun Law)), which can Either be translated as "The Mitzvot
(all 613 Commandmants)" or "the Torah," which contains all the
Commandmants. Since the Jewish Bible (OT) is broken into three groups
(Torah, Naviyim (Prophets), and Ketuvim ([Holy} Writings), the Use of
"The Prophets" as the next words indicates that "Torah" is the correct
translation. So no matter which ancient text/language you choose to
use, "Torah" is the correct word to use here.
>
>Jesus discussed what *HE* came to do.
>He did not say, "and you must obey all
>613 commandments until heaven and
>earth pass".
>
>YOU ADDED THOSE WORDS!
False accusations again, Dave.
Certainly you cannot be too stupid to understand paraphrasing or
translating. So, it seems that you are being dishonest again.
Well, just in case you really do not understand:
"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that
until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yod or a tag will
pass from the Torah - not until everything has happened. So, whoever
disobeys the least of the Mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be
called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and
so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."
So, all followers of Jesus must obey all 613 Commandments.
>
>
>>>I believe heaven and earth has passed. That was
>>>a symbolic statement. But even if you take it to be
>>>literal, the presence of the Law does not equal being
>>>under the Law for believers. The Law serves to convict
>>>those who are in unbelief.
>>
>>That is ridiculous! the Law is to bless believers. Unbelievers have
>>no real knowledge of the Law and it does not effect them (at least not
>>until judgement makes them believers for that brief period proceeding
>>their damnation).
>
>Believers are not bound under the Law.
LOL
That does not agree with What Jesus said.
>
>Colossians 2:13-14
>
>13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
>uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive
>together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
>14) blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
>was against us, which was contrary to us, and has
>taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.
This mistranslation again!
I just corrected ike on this.
The actual text says, "kai umas nekrous ontas en tois paraptômasin
kai tê akrobustia tês sarkos umôn sunezôopoiêsen sun autô charisamenos
umin panta ta paraptômata, exaleipsas to kath êmôn cheirographon tois
dogmasin o ên upenantion êmin kai auto êrken ek tou mesou prosêlôsas
auto tô staurô."
"And you, being dead in the offences and the uncircuncision of your
flesh, He made alivewith Him having forgiven youall the offenses,
blotting out the Bill of Charges against us, the ordinances that were
our opposition, and has removed [it] from our way, nailing it to the
stake."
The words "bill of charges" in this translation are a more accurate
expression of the intent of the words than some translations. The
symbolism here draws from the Roman customs at crucifixion. The
Romans placed a placard listing the charges for which a prisoner was
convicted on the stake where he was executed. This public display was
supposed to deter potential criminals. It is also clear that the
phrase "the ordinances that were our opposition" is a modifier for
this same "bill of charges." This modifying phrase holds two
meanings. It means that the charges against us are actually true, we
have sinned, we have opposed G-d's Law, and that the guilt incurred
though our sins opposed our path to Heaven. So, we see that it is our
guilt that was nailed, the accusations of HaSatan that were nailed,
not the Word of G-d.
Dave you really need to use the acrual verses not some twisted
mistranslation if you want anyone with a brain to believe you.
>
>
>>The fact that the Messianic prophecies have not all been accomplished
>
>That is your opinion.
Do you believe that Jesus has returned, established universal worls
peace, judged humanity, established the third temple, brought all Jews
back to the land of Israel? I did not say that He failed to prove
that He IS the Messiah, I said that He has not completed all of the
things that it has been prophesied that He will do. In Matthew 5:18
it says "pas" in the Greek, "kal" in the Hebrew both of which mean
"ALL." "All" means "all," not "selected bits."
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:05:59 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>
>>>Paul dealt with those who were coming
>>>into the church in Galatia and telling people that they
>>>had to convert to Judaism.
>>
>>The book of Galatians deal with Gentiles who had accepted jesus
>>rejecting Him to convert to saducaic Judaism.
>
>No, it does not. It deals with people being mislead by
>false teachers who said the same thing you are, which
>is that in addition to being believers, they ALSO had
>be converted to Judaism.
That is a ridiculous thing to say since 4:17 says that the false
teachers were not followers of Jesus and were trying to get the
Gentile Converts to convert to a non-Messianic faith, and in 5:12 Paul
says that he wishes that they would castrate themselves. The Saducees
controlled the Temple and Eunuchs were forbidden from serving in the
Temple. So, Paul is not having a temper tantrum, He is making a
remark specific to their position which they had corrupted.
Sorry Dave, but your anti0Semitic myth does not stand up to any close
examination.
>
>
>>Dave, you have faild to prove your point again.
>>You make claims based on your own opinion
>>but cannot validate them with biblical proof.
>
>Is that why I quoted Scripture that proved exactly
>what I said?
Dave, you MISquoted Scripture and lied.
>
>Fact: This issue was dealt with at the first Council.
>Read Acts 15.
Yes, in Verse 21 they said that the gentiles could learn the Law at
their own pace in their synagogues on Sabbath. Again your attempts to
twist the Scripture to promote a theology that Paul uses to describe
the Anti-Christ fails.
Aaron
<1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:15:04 -0400, Aaron
><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>
>>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:40:40 GMT, Pastor Dave
>><1news-gr...@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:47:26 -0400, Aaron
>>><an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Since there are just the two options: Jewish (according to the Bible),
>>>
>>>No, the two options are believer and unbeliever.
>>
>>Satan is a believer
>
>Intellectually.
Emotionally too!
>
>
>>It is the walk that makes the difference.
>
>I did not say one word about Christians living sinful
>lives.
????
You said that they are allowed to do evil things.
>
>
>>>"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
>>>nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are
>>>all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
>>
>>The three pairs must all be interpreted the same way.
>
>It says what it says.
Yes, and since there are men and women, you are being dishonest by
trying to say that it should not be interpretaed so as to be true.
Let me restore what you dishionestly snipped out without notation.
(I have noticed you do that when you are proven wrong, but are too
dishonest to face facts)
Physically, there are men and women, master and slaves, anbd Jews and
Gentiles.
Spiritually, there are commandments that only apply to men and some
that onlt apply to women. (Since some of these are stated in Paul's
writings there can be no doubt about their currenbt validity,) There
are commandments that only apply to masters and some that apply to
slaves. (Again, since some of these are stated in Paul's writings
there can be no doubt about their currenbt validity.) There are
commandmants that only apply to Jews. so spiritually there are men and
women, master and slaves, anbd Jews and Gentiles.
With respect to Salvation: there is only one way to be saved.
>
>
>>With respect to Salvation: there is only one way to be saved.
>
>That is correct. By grace, through faith, as the Bible
>says. Ephesians 2:8-9.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with out responsibility to obey the
Commandments.
>
>
>>>Romans 2:10-11
>>>
>>>10) But glory, honor, and peace, to every man
>>>that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to
>>>the Gentile:
>>>11) For there is no respect of persons with God.
>>
>>If you believe that quote, then there is no justification for any
>>nonJudaic worship, custome, or lifestyle among Gentiles; they would
>>all be converts to Judiasm.
>
>That was a very stupid statement. It says, "and ALSO
>to the Gentiles". What it does NOT say, is for
>Gentiles to convert to Judaism.
But you quoted a verse that says that they all followed the same
religion - Judaism. Dave, you are just being foolish by trying to
insert your anti-Semitism into the Bible.
Obviously you are NOT a real Pastor.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>>>Paul dealt with those who were coming
>>>>into the church in Galatia and telling people that they
>>>>had to convert to Judaism.
>>>
>>>The book of Galatians deal with Gentiles who had accepted jesus
>>>rejecting Him to convert to saducaic Judaism.
>>
>>No, it does not. It deals with people being mislead by
>>false teachers who said the same thing you are, which
>>is that in addition to being believers, they ALSO had
>>be converted to Judaism.
>
>That is a ridiculous thing to say since 4:17 says that the false
>teachers were not followers of Jesus and were trying to get the
>Gentile Converts to convert to a non-Messianic faith,
No, it does not say that. You seem to like to make up
your own verses.
Pastor Dave
<an...@home.net> spake thusly:
>>Obviously, you did. It doesn't say, "Torah".
>
>The Original Hebrew did!
According to you.
>>Jesus discussed what *HE* came to do.
>>He did not say, "and you must obey all
>>613 commandments until heaven and
>>earth pass".
>>
>>YOU ADDED THOSE WORDS!
>
>False accusations again, Dave.
I stated the truth. You used THOSE WORDS (we must obey
all 613 commandments) and you claimed that Jesus said
them, when it is clear that He did not.
>"Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah
>or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to
>complete.
That's right. *HE* came to complete, or fulfill them.
What Jesus is saying, is that He did not come to
abolish the Law and the prophets, as if they were
wrong. He came to complete them. Once that is
accomplished, they are no longer in effect.
>>>>I believe heaven and earth has passed. That was
>>>>a symbolic statement. But even if you take it to be
>>>>literal, the presence of the Law does not equal being
>>>>under the Law for believers. The Law serves to convict
>>>>those who are in unbelief.
>>>
>>>That is ridiculous! the Law is to bless believers. Unbelievers have
>>>no real knowledge of the Law and it does not effect them (at least not
>>>until judgement makes them believers for that brief period proceeding
>>>their damnation).
>>
>>Believers are not bound under the Law.
>
>LOL
>That does not agree with What Jesus said.
Yes, it does.
>>Colossians 2:13-14
>>
>>13) And you, being dead in your sins and the
>>uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive
>>together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
>>14) blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that
>>was against us, which was contrary to us, and has
>>taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.
>
>This mistranslation again!
>I just corrected ike on this.
>
>The actual text says, "kai umas nekrous ontas en tois paraptômasin
>kai tê akrobustia tês sarkos umôn sunezôopoiêsen sun autô charisamenos
>umin panta ta paraptômata, exaleipsas to kath êmôn cheirographon tois
>dogmasin o ên upenantion êmin kai auto êrken ek tou mesou prosêlôsas
>auto tô staurô."
>
>
>"And you, being dead in the offences and the uncircuncision of your
>flesh, He made alivewith Him having forgiven youall the offenses,
>blotting out the Bill of Charges against us, the ordinances that were
>our opposition, and has removed [it] from our way, nailing it to the
>stake."
Actually, you're wrong. The words are, "cheirographon"
and "dogma" and translate as, "hand written law", not
"bill of charges". But even if it did translate that
way, it is the Law that makes it so that we can be
charged and thus, if the Law is still in effect, you
are in the same position again, because you cannot
possibly follow it perfectly and thus, Jesus' sacrifice
was meaningless, because you will still be condemned.
And if you say you won't, because of His sacrifice,
then you are admitting that the Law is no longer in
effect for believers. Thus, you are in a losing
argument, no matter which way you turn.
They cannot be taken out of the way and nailed to
the cross, if they are still in effect for believers.
It is that simple.
The fact is, this was dealt with, at the first Council.
It tells us, in Acts 15, that the Gentiles were only
commanded to "abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication, and from things strangled,
and from blood" (Acts 15:20).
Sorry, you lose. :)