U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
C. E. White
Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
regulators said after studying data recorders.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also saw no evidence of
electronics-related causes for the accidents in reviewing the vehicle
recorders, known as black boxes, the agency said today in a report to
lawmakers.
The preliminary findings bolster Toyota's contentions that there's no
evidence of flaws in electronic controls on its vehicles and that motorists
in some cases confused the accelerator and brake pedals.
But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
data only when the airbag is activated.
"The data should also be independently corroborated, e.g., through physical
evidence, other research, etc." he said in an e-mail to Automotive News.
Toyota's black boxes are built into the airbag sensor and usually begin
recording only when the airbag is deployed, Lyons said.
Since November, Toyota has recalled 9.4 million vehicles worldwide,
including 7.5 million in the U.S., for acceleration problems involving floor
mats and sticky pedals, Lyons said.
"At this early point in its investigation, NHTSA officials have drawn no
conclusions about additional causes of unintended acceleration in Toyotas
beyond the two defects already known -- pedal entrapment and sticking gas
pedals," the agency said in the report provided for a briefing to lawmakers
in Washington.
In addition to the 60 percent of cases where brakes weren't used, NHTSA
cited accidents in which the brakes were applied partially or the data
recorder failed.
Toyota has conducted more than 4,000 on-site vehicle inspections, and said
today it has not found electronic throttle controls to be a cause of
unintended acceleration.
"Toyota's own vehicle evaluations have confirmed that the remedies it
developed for sticking accelerator pedal and potential accelerator pedal
entrapment by an unsecured or incompatible floor mat are effective," the
company said.
"We have also confirmed several different causes for unintended acceleration
reports, including pedal entrapment by floor mats, pedal misapplication and
vehicle functions where a slight increase in engine speed is normal, such as
engine idle up from a cold start or air conditioning loads."
In many cases studied by federal regulators, the driver made an allegation
of unintended acceleration.
Questions about data
NHTSA said its study was limited to post 2007 vehicles because most Toyota
models made before 2007 did not have black boxes that stored pre-crash data.
Most sudden acceleration complaints since 1999 occurred before 2007,
according to a February study by Safety Research & Strategies, a research
and advocacy firm funded in part by plaintiff lawyers.
A high proportion of these involved 2002-2006 Camrys and 2005-2006 Tacoma
pick-up trucks, the study found.
"The idea that Toyota has been exonerated is preposterous given all the
facts," said Sean Kane, the firm's president. "This is a small sampling of
crashes."
Kane added that the vast majority of sudden acceleration incidents are at
too low a speed to activate the black boxes. The NHTSA study is thus limited
to an examination of high-speed crashes, he said.
In addition, Toyota itself has said in court that the scientific accuracy of
its black boxes has never been validated, calling into question the validity
of their data, Kane said.
Limited braking
Of the 58 recording devices analyzed, 35 showed that at the moment of the
crash impact, the driver hadn't depressed the brake pedal at all, safety
officials said. Fourteen more cases showed partial braking. In another nine
cases, the brake had been depressed at the "last second" before impact.
The government's preliminary examination also said there were a handful of
other crashes where the brake was pressed early and released, or in which
the brake and gas pedals were pressed at the same time. There was one case
of pedal entrapment by a floor mat.
In five cases, NHTSA said, the electronic recording device failed to work.
The agency is continuing its review of Toyota defects and is working with
NASA, the U.S. space agency, and the National Academy of Sciences to probe
the cause of the crashes.
Neil Roland and Bloomberg News contributed to this report
Read more:
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100810/OEM/100819988/1424
jim beam
<snip masquerade>
you're a detroit shill "farmer" ed. trying to "blend in" by posting
something we already knew doesn't work.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
hls
"C. E. White" <cewhite...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:mt-dnThtVN8zgf_R...@earthlink.com...
> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
Isnt that what was found in the Audi cases some years ago? AFAIK,
they never found a failure in the systems in those cases.
Harry K
wrote:
I have often wondered about the case that kicked it all off - the LEO
who took his family into a ?bridge abutment? while on the phone. I
wonder if there ever was an investigation into the possibility of a
murder/suicide.
Harry K
JoeSpareBedroom
news:adf540ab-a316-428f...@m35g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
I have often wondered about the case that kicked it all off - the LEO
who took his family into a ?bridge abutment? while on the phone. I
wonder if there ever was an investigation into the possibility of a
murder/suicide.
Harry K
==============
None of the occupants have agreed to discuss the matter.
Michael Dobony
> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
> Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
> Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
> UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
>
> WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
> least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
> regulators said after studying data recorders.
>
That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a technique
of the guilty.
hls
"Michael Dobony" <sur...@stopassaultnow.net> wrote in message
> That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
> driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a technique
They said "at least".. As I read the piece, the data from the car's
computers
is not as complete as would be desireable.
So, they know that in 35 cases, no brakes were applied. In the others
they dont know for sure, or there could have been brakes and accelerator
simultaneously.
So, bottom line, you cant draw much of a conclusion one way or the other
on this......except that in a substantial number of cases, the brakes were
never applied, and in the rest the data is not conclusive.
At least that is the way I see it.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:LsCdnaZePovMU__R...@giganews.com...
Who knows for sure? If what the Toyota spokesman says is true, the black
boxes are set up to be useless. Recording *begins* after a car hits a tree?
This contradicts what other sources have said in the past: The black boxes
record 5 seconds of data at a time.
"But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
data only when the airbag is activated.
...
Harry K
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
That was my opinion. What were they thinking? About as useless as
tits on a boar hog.
Harry K
dr_jeff
By breaks, do you mean they were stopping for a snack?
> Interesting deflection technique, a technique
> of the guilty.
Gee, how do you know? Perhaps 23 of the 58 crashes are still under
investigation. Or, there was no way to difinitively say whether or not
the brakes were applied.
T.J. Higgins
You are correct. The official finding in the Audi situation was
"pedal misapplication." Audi redesigned the pedals and evenutually
renamed the cars.
--
TJH
Clive
<sur...@stopassaultnow.net> writes
>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:44:48 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
>> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
>> Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is needed
>> Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
>> UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
>> WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in at
>> least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S. auto-safety
>> regulators said after studying data recorders.
>That leaves 23 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration where the
>driver DID apply the breaks. Interesting deflection technique, a technique
>of the guilty.
fault, or is it just your imagination.
What about all the vehicles with automatic transmissions that would drop
into reverse if left unattended and were never repaired because it would
bankrupt the company?
--
Clive
Clive
<news...@frontiernet.net> writes
>"But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
>company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
>data only when the airbag is activated.
that everyone takes their foot off of the brake the moment they know
they're going to crash? I KNOW I wouldn't.
--
Clive
hls
"Clive" <cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> into reverse if left unattended and were never repaired because it would
> bankrupt the company?
> --
> Clive
We in fact dont know what happened.
I dont remember specifically what cars dropped into reverse.. Could you
refresh my memory?
Nate Nagel
Think it was Fords, back in the 70's... way long ago. only heard about
it, cars were beaters before I was old enough to notice.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Scott Dorsey
hls <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>"Clive" <cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> What about all the vehicles with automatic transmissions that would drop
>> into reverse if left unattended and were never repaired because it would
>> bankrupt the company?
>
>I dont remember specifically what cars dropped into reverse.. Could you
>refresh my memory?
Dunno, but I had a Datsun 710 that dropped into reverse on the highway
while the prindle was in drive. The end result was very exciting... it
is amazing how much mechanical stuff is inside a transmission when all
of a sudden it isn't inside any longer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
hls
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message news:i3v8e2
> Dunno, but I had a Datsun 710 that dropped into reverse on the highway
> while the prindle was in drive. The end result was very exciting... it
> is amazing how much mechanical stuff is inside a transmission when all
> of a sudden it isn't inside any longer.
> --scott
ROTFLMAO>>>>
A friend of mine had a 53 or 54 Chevy with a Powerglide tranny that
he used to intentionally drop into reverse so that he could emulate
squealing tires. Amazing how tough those old trannies were..
In latter years, another friend ran dragsters and used 427 Ford crossbolt
engines, but the same Powerglide tranny with computer control on those
beasts.
We are damn near out of the period of time where we can do fun things
with pieces of different cars. Shame
Harry K
> In message <KeA8o.55691$Zp1.45...@newsfe15.iad>, JoeSpareBedroom
> <newstr...@frontiernet.net> writes>"But Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons acknowledged this evening that the
> >company's black boxes have limited capability because they typically produce
> >data only when the airbag is activated.
>
> As the airbag is activated on impact, are you trying to tell the world
> that everyone takes their foot off of the brake the moment they know
> they're going to crash? I KNOW I wouldn't.
> --
> Clive
The most important information occurs prior to impact.
Harry K
His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-Hammock
I made the same error. Mine was unsafe at any speed.
Kev
> On 08/11/2010 06:05 PM, hls wrote:
>>
>> "Clive" <cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> What about all the vehicles with automatic transmissions that would
>>> drop into reverse if left unattended and were never repaired because
>>> it would bankrupt the company?
>>> --
>>> Clive
>>
>> We in fact dont know what happened. I dont remember specifically what
>> cars dropped into reverse.. Could you
>> refresh my memory?
>
> Think it was Fords, back in the 70's... way long ago. only heard about
> it, cars were beaters before I was old enough to notice.
That would be the column auto shift cars
the ones where people would jam them into park without their foot on the
brake pedal or the vehicle was still moving and the gearbox wouldn't
properly engage park
also due to laziness wouldn't pull the lever forward far enough so that
the locking tag would wear out or break, in this case ther vehicle could
then be shifted between park, reverse, neutral and drive without pulling
the lever back(towards the steering wheel)
I have seen this plenty of times on older 60s and 70s cars and not just
fords either
Kev
chuckcar
news:AwoK8OZU...@yewbank.demon.co.uk:
Last minute suicide pact <g>
--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
chuckcar
news:i3v8e2$ghi$1...@panix2.panix.com:
The problem would be all the cars behind you annoyed at all the caltrops
you dropped I imagine.<g>
chuckcar
> U.S. study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents
> Automaker acknowledges other research, independent corroboration is
> needed Staff and wire reports August 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm ET
> UPDATED: 8/10/10 6:56 p.m. ET
>
> WASHINGTON -- Brakes weren't applied by drivers of Toyota vehicles in
> at least 35 of 58 crashes blamed on unintended acceleration, U.S.
> auto-safety regulators said after studying data recorders.
>
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also saw no
> evidence of electronics-related causes for the accidents in reviewing
> the vehicle recorders, known as black boxes, the agency said today in
> a report to lawmakers.
Pretty standard for accident investigation - you eliminate human error
first because that's *always* the most common cause. In planes it's
almost impossible to find other ones these days.
I still say that Toyota (at least the executive part) has handled this
*extremely* badly. They should have stuck by their guns and said "wait
for the investigation to *find* the cause(s)". I can see at least one
falling on his sword in the very near future. The CEO. It may even help
their racing program. God knows they need to get the boardroom away from it.
"Toyota *hasn't* been exonerated". Typical unethical lawyer.
On another note, it's still clear that the web has a long way to go
before it comes close to usenet's credibility - judging by the replies
to that article at least.