Did I get reamed, or what?
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen
I picked it up, the bill was $440.00! I was shocked. I picked the bill
apart and found that they had charged me for parts they didn't use (e.g.
ATF on a car with a manual transmission), but that only got me back
about $22. They would not admit that they were charging me for work not
done, and they did not itemize the labor charges, but I am not inclined
to trust them at this point.
How does this charge compare with others' experiences?
--
Dave Livesay (http://www.erols.com/dlivesay/)
aka Immanuel Tranz-Mischen ("Perhaps you know my brother, Otto?")
Jason Thomas Vance
You went back to the dealership? Are you nuts? The only time you should be
on the dealer's lot is to test-drive the car, haggle a price and buy it.
Never use their financers, never bring up a "trade-in" until you hammer
out the final price, and after you buy it, never come back! That means to
hell with 30,000 mile service!!! Your lender can provide service
warranties better than the dealers and you can choose your own mechanic
(just because the dealer sells these vehicles does not make their
mechanics experts with these vehicles).
Some people may argue with their good experiences with dealers, but
car-salesman will lie through their teeth to get a sale...the service
department will do you even worse since service is where dealerships make
most of their money.
The last 30k miles of my Legacy (at 107k) has not even requested that much
money for service...and this includes a timing belt, oil pump, spark
plugs, many oil changes, and labor. While some of my service warranty
picked this up, the first 30k should not never require this.
I'm willing to bet most people receive this disservice when returning
their vehicles for service...after this experience, you would be wise not
to go back.
-Jason
p.s. this wasn't to insult you...dealerships project a formed "friendship"
so you, the buyer, develop trust. They are not all like that, but too many
are. Remember, it is always a buyers market with cars...if you don't like
the price, leave the dealership and spend your money elsewhere 8^)
Jeff Cochran
>I picked it up, the bill was $440.00! I was shocked. I picked the bill
>apart and found that they had charged me for parts they didn't use (e.g.
>ATF on a car with a manual transmission), but that only got me back
>about $22. They would not admit that they were charging me for work not
>done, and they did not itemize the labor charges, but I am not inclined
>to trust them at this point.
>
>How does this charge compare with others' experiences?
The 30,000 mile service point is a biggie as far as work needed, and
the price you paid for the services suggested at 30,000 miles isn't
out of line. And that's not just for Subarus, nor just from dealers.
Jeff
Jason Thomas Vance
On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, tradca wrote:
>
> > The 30,000 mile service point is a biggie as far as work needed, and
> > the price you paid for the services suggested at 30,000 miles isn't
> > out of line. And that's not just for Subarus, nor just from dealers.
> >
> > Jeff
Let's see, $400...
change the oil, and oil filter...usually $25 bucks (Jiffy Lube), but at a
dealership, we'll say $50. Change the fuel filter...costs about $20 plus
labor, let's say $50 at the dealership. Change the air filter...about $10
bucks plus labor...let's call it $50.
Okay, there is $150 in parts and labor...all at the dealership's inflated
price. I did this myself in less than an hour at a cost less than $50
(I've got a K&N filter, but the filter "charger" cost $10 so it's even).
Where else does the other $250 go? You mentioned you have a stick, so
there was no flushing the AT. Top off the fluids? Check the belts? Check
the brakes? Check the plugs? None of these need replacing after 30k miles
(well, maybe flushing the radiator...that could cost $100 at the dealer).
The sparkplugs will last another 30K miles, as will the belts. You don't
replace headlamps unless they are burned out or dimming significantly.
There is no distributer cap and rotor to replace. Eventhough the engine
looks like a VW (hey, keep the comments down), you don't need to adjust
the valves...and no, the lash adjusters should be fine after 30K, or even
130K. Did they vacuum the interior? They must have done a hell of a job
because they sure cleaned your pocketbook.
Even if you got an itemized list of the service performed, I cannot
imagine half of it being neccessary. I'm racking my brain trying to figure
out how you would acrue a $400 dollar bill at one time of service
(somebody explain...maybe one of you who thinks this is normal). Heck,
taking your car to jiffy lube 10 times (that would be 30K total) costs
$250 plus a little extra for the occasional air filter; cheaper if you
did it yourself. Total maintenance over the course of 30k should be
$400...not the charge for a 30k recommended service.
I'm not trying to say dealerships are evil, but give me a good reason why
they aren't...
-Jason
p.s. the only good things about the dealer are the cars on the lot
Elliott Peeler
certainly would try and find another dealer. Seems a little odd that they
would just hand you a bill for $440 with nothing noted except "30K service".
Generally, for scheduled maintenance stuff like that you're going to be
better off going to the dealer from a warranty standpoint. If it comes down
to a disputed warranty claim you'll have a lot more leverage if the
"Authorized" service facility has been the one performing the maintenance
with factory parts.
Not all factory shops are dishonest and not all independent shops are full
of 2-bit wannabe mechanics who don't know their tail from a hole in the
ground.
---------
Elliott
>Immanuel Tranz-Mischen <dliv...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3873F712...@erols.com...
> I took my 97 Outback in for the 30,000 mile maintenance yesterday. When
> I picked it up, the bill was $440.00! I was shocked. I picked the bill
> apart and found that they had charged me for parts they didn't use (e.g.
> ATF on a car with a manual transmission), but that only got me back
> about $22. They would not admit that they were charging me for work not
> done, and they did not itemize the labor charges, but I am not inclined
> to trust them at this point.
>
> How does this charge compare with others' experiences?
tradca
Jeff Cochran <jcoc...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:dfea7s0idulucq73j...@4ax.com...
> The 30,000 mile service point is a biggie as far as work needed, and
> the price you paid for the services suggested at 30,000 miles isn't
> out of line. And that's not just for Subarus, nor just from dealers.
>
> Jeff
$400.00 for a 30,000 mile service is no biggie??? I dont know about the
anyone else, but here in Ohio it is required that the work is itemized and
used/old parts have to be returned to the owner upon request. With all the
advancements in auto technology, the length between service checks for most
cars has risen. Some car mfgs even suggesting that their engine wont need a
tune up for 100,000. I myself own a 93 Toyota pick-up with over 80,000
miles and haven't had the need to take it into the shop. I change the oil
every 3,000 miles and have the basic maintenance taken care of. If after
only 30,000 I had to shell out $400.00 I sure would let someone know how I
felt. Especially when one of the charges on the bill is erroneous. I do
plan on purchasing a Subaru Forester soon, but if it is going to need that
kind of $$ attention(which I highly doubt) to own it I think I will look at
another mfg for my next purchase. The only thing that I can even suspect in
that price range and mileage would be breaks and that's only if that vehicle
is used for city driving. . If it were the breaks then you should of been
told. I wouldn't trust the dealership that you are using. I would find
another dealership to look at your car.
almurray
It's obvious you don't know much about dealer mechanics. Although they are
not perfect (who is)
I work for a Subaru dealer and make a very good living out of repairing
Subaru that the local independent repair shop has screwed up.
The big hint is when the independent looks at that flat four and scratches
his head.
Or the quickie oil change places that drain the from diff. and put 4 more
quarts of oil in the car.
I have replaced two front diffs. ($2800.00 ea.) on 2000 foresters already
because the owner thinks like you do. lots of luck collecting from your
independent garage.
true...@my-deja.com
<Pine.GSO.3.96.100010...@gladstone.uoregon.edu>,
Jason Thomas Vance <va...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote:
This is not Subaru-specific, but not all dealers are
rip-offs, price-wise. Mostly the gripe with dealers is
lack of discounts for comodity items (tires!) and lack
of flexibilty for repair (and diagnostics) procedures.
> change the oil, and oil filter...usually $25 bucks (Jiffy Lube),
> but at a dealership, we'll say $50.
My Chevy dealer for my truck: $26.
> Where else does the other $250 go? [...] Check the belts?
Or replace if worn...
> Check the brakes?
New pads? How about warped rotor replacement?
> Even if you got an itemized list of the service performed,
> I cannot imagine half of it being neccessary.
Often it is "neccessary" if you want to keep warrantied.
Frequently the itemized list is in the owner materials
that came with your car. My last 5 cars all came with
100,000 miles (minimum) worth of maintenance schedules.
> I'm not trying to say dealerships are evil,
Actually, Jason, that is PRECISELY what you are implying.
Saying that you are not saying it does not negate the
fact that, essentially, you ARE saying it. That statement
is like telling somebody, "It's nothing personal but..."
right before you insult them.
> but give me a good reason why they aren't...
Here's one reason: they are humans like yourself --
maybe less flexible due to company policy -- but generally
doing their job competently.
> p.s. the only good things about the dealer are the
> cars on the lot
And their work is "factory authorized" and will never
void warranty.
And they will always use correct parts (not whatever
they might have on hand.)
And so on.
- - -
But back to the main point, $400 seems a bit high for a
30,000 mile maintenance and I would seek itemization of
the costs.
--scot
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris
>I work for a Subaru dealer and make a very good living out of repairing
>Subaru that the local independent repair shop has screwed up.
Perhaps you can lend credence to the $440+ charge for a 30K mile service then?
Chris
Jason Thomas Vance
On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, almurray defends his pride:
> In response to Jason,
> It's obvious you don't know much about dealer mechanics. Although they are
> not perfect (who is)
> I work for a Subaru dealer and make a very good living out of repairing
> Subaru that the local independent repair shop has screwed up.
>
> The big hint is when the independent looks at that flat four and scratches
> his head.
>
> Or the quickie oil change places that drain the from diff. and put 4 more
> quarts of oil in the car.
>
> I have replaced two front diffs. ($2800.00 ea.) on 2000 foresters already
> because the owner thinks like you do. lots of luck collecting from your
> independent garage.
Ah, what is obvious is that I do not know much about you...and even more
so, you don't know jack about me. Maybe I'm a bit naive about independent
garages but our small town here in Eugene has two Subaru independent
garages. Neither work on anything but Subaru's and neither use anything
but genuine Subaru parts. You are right, I would be a fool to take my
Legacy to any old garage and let the "experts" figure it out for
themselves. I would also be stupid to figure that quickie lube could even
do their job right. I bet on neither and I do almost all maintenance
myself.
While you may be an honest bloke, you have done nothing to defend this
guy's $400 service maintenance. Tell me, expert, at a 30k visit, how might
one ring up $400 in service? And why would the dealer/service department
not itemize nor explain the work performed?
In all honesty, I'm sure if you were presented this complaint from a
customer, you would put the car back on the lift, explain, locate and show
the customer every task you performed. This way you would satisfy the
customer's needs and maintain the trust established with this customer. If
you feel that the only explanation warranted is "30k maintenance, routine
service" then you, sir, are the idiot. Honesty is being questioned here;
it is obvious this individual's dealer was not honest with him, whether
the service was needed or not, and you being a mechanic for a dealer
should be well aware of the reputation your profession carries.
Face up to the fact that other people, even mechanics, are smarter than
you. I have yet to meet one that scratches their head wondering what a
flat-four is doing in a modern automible. But then again, if you gave
those people some credit, you would be out of a job.
-Jason
Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie
<Pine.GSO.3.96.100010...@gladstone.uoregon.edu>, Jason
Thomas Vance <va...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> While you may be an honest bloke, you have done nothing to defend this
> guy's $400 service maintenance.
I was just to the local dealer last night and the rate on the wall for
a 30K service was listed as $395. Also there are reports on the
FordTruck list I am on about similar costs.
I don't know what is involved, but it sounds a typical charge
--
Ralph Lindberg personal email n7...@amsat.org
RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv
If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is
Jason Thomas Vance
This may be a retraction of sort, but I spoke with the local Sube dealer
and got the run-down on their 30k service:
includes-
-rotate tires
-flush brake fluid (for a 2000 Forrester)
-check and clean brakes
-adjust parking brake
-flush tranny and diffs
-flush cooling system
-tune-up...what this may include???
-check on board computer if necessary (i.e. necessity for tune-up and
other problems)
-check battery
-check belt tension
-a bunch of other stuff (that's what the mechanic said)
they quoted $415 and approximately 4-5 hours labor included in price.
While some of this service needs to be performed by a mechanic of sort
(flushing tranny and diff, checking computer, flushing brake fluid), the
rest can be performed by the owner with the help of a Haynes manual and a
torque wrench.
While it appears this is a usuall charge for 30k maintenance, much of it
is not necessary if the owner performes routine maintenance (you know, the
way your father and his father used to do it). Also, while I jumped on a
dealer-bashing theme, I realize there are many honest dealers out there.
But let's face it, our bad experiences with dealers is what forms this
opinion about them. If they were perfectly honest (i.e. not perfect, but
HONEST), then we would give them glowing recommendations to all of our
friends. But they are not and failing to itemize and describe the service
performed, even after the customer was billed erroneously (AT charge in a
manual...that's more stupid than scratching your head wondering what a
flat-four is doing under the hood), is dishonest at best...whether the
service and charge was routine or not.
I think I'll get off here before this thread explodes...
-JV
Jeff Cochran
>is not necessary if the owner performes routine maintenance (you know, the
>way your father and his father used to do it).
Perhaps that's why it's called "recommended maintenance". Heck, if
you do all your own maintenance you don't need to take it to the
dealer. And if you don't want to pay the dealer's price, you're
welcome to take it elsewhere or do it yourself.
My 30,000 mile maintenance on a Saturn was $545, on a Ford Contour
was $485. Both were simply what the maintenance schedule recommended,
and both were a package deal from the dealer. I priced the Ford's
services with two outside garages and got quotes that were within a
few bucks of the dealer's prices.
Could I do some of that maintenance myself? Sure. I chose not to
because I get paid more than the mechanic and my time is more valuable
to me than the cost of the repairs was. Should everyone just pay the
dealer and let it go? Certainly not, but I'd advise my mother to.
Probably my sister as well.
Jeff
ski...@my-deja.com
inspect exterior belts
inspect cam belts (time consuming)
replace oil and filter
replace antifreeze and inspect hoses, pumps, etc
replace fuel filter and inspect system
replace air filter
replace spark plugs (how time consuming is this? gotta be more than
an inline 4!)
inspect transmission AND differential fluids (mighta replaced them...)
replace brake fluid
inspect brake pads, discs
inspect axle boots and cv joints
inspect brake lines
inspect parking brake
service brake system (?)
inspect clutch operation
inspect steering
inspect suspension
This is straight out of my owner's manual.
If your dealer was actually conscienceous enough to do all of these,
you got good service.
Kripes, it took me a half hour just to key the list in! ;-)
Get a list of what they did, just for piece of mind.
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen
>
> In response to Jason,
> It's obvious you don't know much about dealer mechanics. Although they
> are not perfect (who is)
> I work for a Subaru dealer and make a very good living out of repairing
> Subaru that the local independent repair shop has screwed up.
>
> The big hint is when the independent looks at that flat four and
> scratches his head.
>
> Or the quickie oil change places that drain the from diff. and put 4
> more quarts of oil in the car.
>
> I have replaced two front diffs. ($2800.00 ea.) on 2000 foresters
> already because the owner thinks like you do. lots of luck collecting
> from your independent garage.
Perhaps being the consummate expert on Subarus that you are you'd be
able to tell me why a 30,00 mile service should cost $440?
I used to work for an indy, and we used to fix up the Volkswagens,
Porsches and Audis that the dealers screwed up.
Dealers don't have a monopoly on good mechanics. The real issue is
whether the guy calling the shots is honest or dishonest and whether
he's willing to stand behind the work his guys do, and the guy I used to
work for was the most honest man I ever met.
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen
Elliott Peeler wrote:
>
> I would ask for an itemized list of all charges. If they can't provide
> one I certainly would try and find another dealer. Seems a little odd
> that they would just hand you a bill for $440 with nothing noted except
> "30K service".
Actually, they did itemize the parts, and I found a few that were not
correct, like the ATF that I mentioned, and the oil filter I told them
not to change because I had just changed it a month ago, but they didn't
itemize the labor. When I asked how he could be sure they hadn't charged
me for work not done, just as they had for parts not used, he just said
that the amount of labor was correct for the time they spent. (I know
about flat rates, so I know this is b.s.) Also, they are supposed to do
a clutch inspection as part of the 30,000 mile service, but at the same
time, they also replaced the throw-out bearing, so they had to R&R the
transaxle, so unless they did it twice, they are charging both me and
SOA for the same work, and somehow that doesn't seem fair. Who is
actually supposed to pay for the labor in a case like that?
> Generally, for scheduled maintenance stuff like that you're going to be
> better off going to the dealer from a warranty standpoint. If it comes
> down to a disputed warranty claim you'll have a lot more leverage if
> the "Authorized" service facility has been the one performing the
> maintenance with factory parts.
If they overcharge you to the tune of a couple hundred a year, you can
afford to eat a warranty repair or two over the life of the car. We only
used to charge about $500 for a valve job on a 4-cylinder when I was a
mechanic. That was 20 years ago, but still, I can't believe a scheduled
maintenance is even in the same ballpark, especially when it doesn't
seem like such a bad car to work on from what little maintenance I've
done on it.
I think it's time to break the Dickies out of the mothballs and become a
serious do-it-yourselfer.
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen
>
> The 30k maint is a biggie:
>
> inspect exterior belts
> inspect cam belts (time consuming)
I'd have to assume they inspected them. They didn't replace any.
> replace oil and filter
This was not supposed to be included. They charged me for the filter
anyway, but I told them not to replace the oil and filter because I had
just done it. They are reimbursing me for the filter, but they refuse to
admit they overcharged me for labor.
> replace antifreeze and inspect hoses, pumps, etc
> replace fuel filter and inspect system
> replace air filter
> replace spark plugs (how time consuming is this? gotta be more than
> an inline 4!)
They did not list spark plugs among the parts replaced, so there should
be no labor for changing them either.
> inspect transmission AND differential fluids (mighta replaced them...)
Well, they say they replaced them, but they also said they replaced the
ATF, so....
> replace brake fluid
> inspect brake pads, discs
Only requires pulling the wheels. No big deal when you have a floor lift.
> inspect axle boots and cv joints
> inspect brake lines
> inspect parking brake
> service brake system (?)
> inspect clutch operation
They had to replace the throw-out bearing under waranty anyway, so why
should I have to pay them to inspect the clutch when they have it apart already?
> inspect steering
> inspect suspension
>
> This is straight out of my owner's manual.
> If your dealer was actually conscienceous enough to do all of these,
> you got good service.
> Kripes, it took me a half hour just to key the list in! ;-)
How much do I owe you? :-)
> Get a list of what they did, just for piece of mind.
I have a list, but the labor is not itemized. I can only assume they
replaced/installed the items they charged me for (except the ones I've
noted). Assuming they did everything you said, except the spark plugs
and the oil and filter, they still did not do anything but inspect
things (most of which I check weekly anyway) and replace fluids and
filters, and the charge for R&R of the transaxle was part of a covered
warranty repair, so I just don't see how they get $264 worth of labor.
Also, the parts they do list are all way more than I'd pay at a good
auto parts store (I'm not talking K-Mart. I know better than that.). It
looks like $156 for about $75 worth of filters and fluids.
So I guess there's my answer: I did get reamed.
I called Subaru, and they said I do not have to go to the dealer in
order to protect my warranty coverage, so from now on, what I can't do
myself I'll take to an indy. The only thing I'll let the dealer do is
warranty repairs. They're not getting another dime out of me.
Chris Torek
<dliv...@erols.com> wrote:
>I called Subaru, and they said I do not have to go to the dealer in
>order to protect my warranty coverage, so from now on, what I can't do
>myself I'll take to an indy. The only thing I'll let the dealer do is
>warranty repairs. They're not getting another dime out of me.
There are good and bad dealers and good and bad independent shops
-- but suppose you have to act in an information vacuum (which is
sometimes the case), and suppose you like to drive your cars into
the ground (the last car I bought was in 1991, and my 2000 Subaru
is not in yet). I think it is worth noting that the incentives at
an independent shop are more in your favor than are those at a
dealer. Suppose you have an aging Zorg-brand car; then consider
the dealer, vs the independent.
The *mechanics* at the dealer may well *want* to do a good job at
a fair price. The dealer (by which I mean "the guy or corporation
owning the facility at which new and/or used cars are sold and at
which service is performed) may even run his sales and service
organizations on separate accounting books (this is, as far as I
know, standard practise). But "Joe Blo Cars Inc" makes its money
off *sales and* service, not *just* service. As I understand it,
most dealers make substantially *more* via sales than via service.
If they can sell you a new car every few years, they will probably
make *more* money overall. That means our hypothetical Mr Blo has
at least *some* reason to want to cut corners in maintenance. The
more trouble you have with your car, the more likely you are to
replace it. The overall pressure on the "dealer system" is to keep
your car running "almost good enough" so that you will replace it
with their latest model.
On the other hand, at the independent shop -- especially one that
specializes in the Zorg brand -- if you replace your car, the new
one will likely need less service. Moreover, there is no guarantee
you will buy another Zorg (if you think "Zorgs are trouble", as it
were). If you buy something else, you will cease to be a Zorg
Independent Shop Customer. This means the overall pressure on the
independent is to keep your car running "good enough" to keep you
from buying any new car.
(Of course, you might not buy a new Zorg at Joe Blo Cars Inc; if
you buy a Norble at Xerf Auto, Mr Blo loses out. But people tend
to exhibit brand loyalty, and I believe some dealers tend to count
on that.)
Your best bet, of course, is not to operate in an information vacuum
in the first place. Find some kind of independent service-rating
organization, ask other people what they think, gather whatever
information you can, etc., and you will be better off than just
"playing the odds".
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Berkeley Software Design Inc
El Cerrito, CA Domain: to...@bsdi.com +1 510 234 3167
http://claw.bsdi.com/torek/ (not always up) I report spam to abuse@.
ziser
if they infact did the full checklist ( ask them to explain how each item is
checked).
here at least (Australia) you dont have to take it to a dealer to keep
warranty, you just have to have a qualified shop do it & stamp your book.
The independent guys (some in particular) really do have a clue and know the
jobs well enough to quote (competitively) from their experience on service
and repair jobs, but if not going to the dealer voids warranty (& that sux)
then you'll probably get reamed by default. You wont change the way they
operate.
Where I work we get anything the dealers can't solve by looking up manuals
or using the "just try replacing the . . . and see if that fixes it"
method, that's not the dealers fault they're there to get the 'bread &
butter' service jobs that they are quicker than the book at completing.
otherwise do what we owners of Soobys that are out of warranty do - get into
fixing & servicing it yourself, they aren't that bad - half the fun of
having one is actually understanding some of the cool engineering that makes
them what they are, it's worth doing that stuff yourself if you can so you
know why they're so good.
ski...@my-deja.com
> > Kripes, it took me a half hour just to key the list in! ;-)
>
> How much do I owe you? :-)
I'll consider what I learned from this thread to be good enough.
Besides, you couldn't afford me!!! ;-)
Good luck with your shadetree auto service, I enjoy mine!
WV
problem it is an extra cost item to replace and repair. like somebody
posted earlier this is where a dealership makes it money. they should
give a description of the service (not just 30k inspection) before the
job is done. but then again - buyer beware.
ski...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> The 30k maint is a biggie:
>
> inspect exterior belts
> inspect cam belts (time consuming)
> replace oil and filter
> replace antifreeze and inspect hoses, pumps, etc
> replace fuel filter and inspect system
> replace air filter
> replace spark plugs (how time consuming is this? gotta be more than
> an inline 4!)
> inspect transmission AND differential fluids (mighta replaced them...)
> replace brake fluid
> inspect brake pads, discs
> inspect axle boots and cv joints
> inspect brake lines
> inspect parking brake
> service brake system (?)
> inspect clutch operation
> inspect steering
> inspect suspension
>
> This is straight out of my owner's manual.
> If your dealer was actually conscienceous enough to do all of these,
> you got good service.
> Kripes, it took me a half hour just to key the list in! ;-)
>
> Get a list of what they did, just for piece of mind.
>
Alan Peterman
>The 30k maint is a biggie:
>
>inspect exterior belts
5 minutes
>inspect cam belts (time consuming)
Not really needed as they are 100K belts, but even so it's about 45
minutes at most to inspect them.
>replace oil and filter
10 minutes of work, maybe 10 more waiting for draining of
oil, during which one can do other tasks.
>replace antifreeze and inspect hoses, pumps, etc
30 minutes at most.
>replace fuel filter and inspect system
Again 30 minutes tops.
>replace air filter
10 minutes
>replace spark plugs (how time consuming is this? gotta be more than
>an inline 4!)
NOT TO BE DONE until 60K on 2.5 engines.
>inspect transmission AND differential fluids (mighta replaced them...)
5 minutes each to "inspect"
>replace brake fluid
Call it one hour, including the other brake inspections and such.
>inspect brake pads, discs
>inspect axle boots and cv joints
>inspect brake lines
>inspect parking brake
>service brake system (?)
>inspect clutch operation
5 minutes..
>inspect steering
5 minutes
>inspect suspension
5 minutes
>
>This is straight out of my owner's manual.
>If your dealer was actually conscienceous enough to do all of these,
>you got good service.
Yes good service but it should be about 4 hours tops. At $60 rip off
per hour that's $240 plus $50 in parts. Still under $300, not $400.
And that's tops. In reality it should be 2.5 hours at $50/hr plus
parts for a total of around $175. Or do most of it yourself in a
morning for $40 in parts.
Alan Peterman a...@scn.rain.com Tigard, OR 97224
http://www.scn.rain.com/alweb 503-684-1984
As I grow older, the days seem longer and the years seem shorter.
n-iterate
>
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.3.96.100010...@gladstone.uoregon.edu>,
> Jason Thomas Vance <va...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
> rip-offs, price-wise. Mostly the gripe with dealers is
> lack of discounts for comodity items (tires!) and lack
> of flexibilty for repair (and diagnostics) procedures.
>
> > change the oil, and oil filter...usually $25 bucks (Jiffy Lube),
> > but at a dealership, we'll say $50.
>
> My Chevy dealer for my truck: $26.
>
> > Where else does the other $250 go? [...] Check the belts?
>
> Or replace if worn...
>
> > Check the brakes?
>
> New pads? How about warped rotor replacement?
>
> > Even if you got an itemized list of the service performed,
> > I cannot imagine half of it being neccessary.
>
> Often it is "neccessary" if you want to keep warrantied.
>
> Frequently the itemized list is in the owner materials
> that came with your car. My last 5 cars all came with
> 100,000 miles (minimum) worth of maintenance schedules.
>
nice service. better yet, why bother with receipt at all then?
if all these works were done, why not, at least, put'em in the bill?
i think that (itemized billing) is a standard level of service expected
from anyone.
> > I'm not trying to say dealerships are evil,
>
> Actually, Jason, that is PRECISELY what you are implying.
> Saying that you are not saying it does not negate the
> fact that, essentially, you ARE saying it. That statement
> is like telling somebody, "It's nothing personal but..."
> right before you insult them.
as many of them should be insulted. i'm sure there are some good
dealers (mine was ok, though i haven't taken the car in for service) but
i suspect, at least according to experiences of mine and others i've
known, such dealers are quite rare. most of them are out to sell cars,
not to keep them in good working order. they charge more and often are
less competent/honest than independent shops (probably cuz they can
afford to - again, they do not rely on service revenue alone).
>
> > but give me a good reason why they aren't...
>
> Here's one reason: they are humans like yourself --
> maybe less flexible due to company policy -- but generally
> doing their job competently.
>
like charging for services not rendered?
company policy disallows itemization of the bill? come on.
it's one thing to make a mistake. but failing to redress it is wholly
another. if they generally do competent job, why are so many people
complaining about dealer service?
> > p.s. the only good things about the dealer are the
> > cars on the lot
>
> And their work is "factory authorized" and will never
> void warranty.
nor will the work performed by other competent shop, most likely at a
lower rate, likely with better service. i'm sure they are many indy
shops that are worse than dealer service, but at least they have an
additional incentive - they can't rely on sales revenue to make up for
service revenue.
and the warranty service isn't all it's crocked up to be. for example,
let's say your brand new engine is burning oil at the rate of quart
every 3000 miles. is that a problem? yeah. it'll get worse and worse,
and couple years down the line, you won't even pass smog inspection.
but to the dealer, it's a non-issue. engine still runs, and, at the
moment, emission is not so bad. they don't have to do anything.
>
> And they will always use correct parts (not whatever
> they might have on hand.)
>
i agree with this one, but you can demand OEM parts be used with any
mechanic.
> And so on.
>
indeed.
i know that you are arguing against the blanket "dealers are evil"
sentiment, but dealer's service dept do need a smack in the backside of
the head. after all, we paid good amount of money buying the car from
them, and pay a higher rate for service. it is eminently reasonable to
expect them to provide better service, with all the resources they have
due to their relationship with the manufacturer, but that is rarely the
case.
> - - -
>
> But back to the main point, $400 seems a bit high for a
> 30,000 mile maintenance and I would seek itemization of
> the costs.
>
> --scot
>
and when you do, the dealer should have no reason to be defensive
(itemization should have been done in the first place without asking).
*IF* they keep dicking you over, report to BBB, make a stink on the
sales floor (preferably when there are a lot of customers around). if
you have time, take it to small claims court, and make a stink far and
wide. let the market know what's up with this particular dealer. of
course, if your dealer does good job, do the same (spread the word).
let the lousy ones go under and good ones in the business.
notice the "if". it would be a bad form to go in there with accusatory
tone from the start.
Jim Untch
http://carpoint.msn.com/home/New.asp ... you can create your own personnel
car. In my case, I have a 97 Outback, with 30K. If I did everything on the
recommended list, it would cost $674 US. !! Of course, some of the items do
not apply to my car. With this being my 4th Subaru in 22 years, I enjoy
doing most of the maintenance myself :) hth jim
n-iterate <nite...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:38791038...@pacbell.net...
unc'
price sounds about right, the 60k is usually about $475 so start saving.
The subaru is a fine piece of machinery, it requires maintenance. Of
course when it becomes a GM product, you will really love having a buick
mechanic looking at it and rolling his eyes all the while whining about
having to work on some funny furrin car.
I will certainly GUARANTEE you cannot do the 60k service yourself
for less than the dealer. If you can, then you have a lot of time on
your hands, not to mention wheel bearing grease. Price the parts, all of
them, and you will see it is better to let them do it. Routine service
you can do yourself, but the big ones you will find are more
economically done at the dealer. Been there, done that. Had wanky local
garage do 2/3 of what was required, had to re-do the timing belt on my
own because it was WRONG, and still it cost me $425. Not including my
time to re-do the belt.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed!
DH2246
the heck did you trust a local shop to do it right. I don't do my own service
just to save money but to make sure it's done right. All shops, even the
dealers hire from the same emploee pool and some people take their job
seriously and have pride in their work and some just plain don't.
Powderfinger
I have to agree with jeff!! If I had nothing better to do with my life than
play back yard mechanic...I guess I would... But I would rather spend my time
with the wife and kids....and by the way....90000 mile service on my Volvo 940
cost $850.00 But I have been taking my car to the same Volvo dealer since it
was new....and have followed all of Volvo's recommended maintenance....And have
never had one single problem !!!!... also I had to have a tire repaired once at
an "independent" garage...and when I got into the car to leave there were big
greasy foot prints on my carpet...and grease on the drive seat......I never had
that at the dealer
In article <qi0d7soa04dkiu202...@4ax.com>, jcoc...@gate.net
says...
Powderfinger
va...@gladstone.uoregon.edu says...
>
>
>
>On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, tradca wrote:
>
>>
>> >
>. I'm racking my brain .....That shouldn't take long!
>
>-Jason
Jason Thomas Vance
On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Powderfinger wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.100010...@gladstone.uoregon.edu>,
> va...@gladstone.uoregon.edu says...
> >
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, tradca wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > (the "apparent" addition is right below!)
> >. I'm racking my brain .....That shouldn't take long!
> >
> >-Jason
> >
> >p.s. the only good things about the dealer are the cars on the lot
uh...I guess it is my ultra slow synapses at work here, but it took me a
while to figure where you added the text into this quote. Good one.
Hopefully you can drive smoother than you can post.
I just spent 6 hours replacing the struts on my Legacy. I bought a set of
KYB's, paid about $70 a piece for them. The indy-Subaru shop wanted $100 a
corner and the Subaru dealership wanted $118 a corner. This does not
include labor. The indy-Subaru shop quoted me $600 for parts and labor and
I didn't bother with the dealer (anybody wanna guess?).
Since I had to buy new mounts up front and boots, the total cost was $400.
And saving $200 for six hours of my own labor is definitely worth my time,
money, and learning knowledge about my car.
Next week the brake pads are being replace and the rotors surfaced. I
wonder how much I'll save on this one...
-Jason
Powderfinger
college ,then get a real job. then maybe you can afford to have your car
repaired?
But hey....I know that would be a big disappointment to McDondalds...?? right
Jason Vance
----------
In article <ly9l4.910$_p2.3...@nnrp1.ptd.net>, nyo...@hotmail.com
(Powderfinger) wrote:
>Seems like a lot of trouble to save a few bucks....
Lets see, $200 for 6-7 hours...that is about 28-33 bucks an hour.
>Maybe you should go to
>college ,then get a real job.
You sound really smart. First you reply to a thread that is over a week old
and substantially dead, and when you finally do reply, you send me and the
NG a post where, unless you were a psychic, you couldn't tell where you
added your smart-ass remark. Second (and if I gave you any credit before,
I'm not giving you any now), you failed to notice my e-mail address. That
whole "...@...uoregon.edu" part just screams "COLLEGE!" Yes, Einstein, I am
in college.
>then maybe you can afford to have your car
>repaired?
Not only am I in college, but, like many college kids, I am rather broke. My
income hovers around the povery-line in Alabama. So that means I not only
look for the best deals around and try to save money by doing routine (and
not so routine) maintenance myself, I am also receiving a great deal of
financial aid. So back to that hourly wage I calculated; if you made that
wage, you would be earning $58K to $68K per year. You, as a tax-paying
citizen (I presume...you sound like the FEDS are doing you up the butt), are
paying for that financial aid. Thanks! I enjoy receiving money from idiots
like you!
>But hey....I know that would be a big disappointment to McDondalds...?? right
>
Are you talking from experience?
I'm really going out on a limb and feeding the troll here, but it appears if
you are serious, you really don't understand the NG concept...or Subaru
owners. The NG is basically a forum for people to exchange experience,
ideas, and suggestions (say, "information"). I use the NG because I like
learning more about my vehicle and others made by Subaru. I like helping
people and I like giving advice (so do you; you advised me to go to college
and get a real job).
One of the joys about owning my Legacy has been learning how to service this
car. I appreciate my car every minute because I have put many hours of labor
into it. It is definitely not a money pit, nor is it a lemon. After 105k
miles, some things do need replacing. I take the car to the shop when I
don't have the time or the confidence to perform certain maintenance
(oil-pump), however, replacing the struts was a piece of cake. The manual
was straightforward and a spring-compressor and a torque-wrench were the
only special items I needed (some would argue that a torque wrench is a
standard item...).
Regardless of my income, my education, or whether I am a grease-monkey or
not, I am an enthusiast of automobiles. Others on the NG would claim the
same and, regardless, users of the NG seek information just as I do. The NG
provides info pertaining to self-maintenance, and (more important to others)
how much that maintenance should cost from a shop. Obviously how much it
"should" cost varies from individual.
After I get a job (actually, the plan is to stay in the land of Academia;
yes, gov't funded research will land MORE of your money into my bank account
8^) that lives up to your expectations I will still do my own maintenance.
It is something I enjoy, something I am proud of, and well worth my time
(usefull knowledge is even better when I am not paying for it).
I'll step of my soap-box now...do you have anything useful to add or retort
(have you added anything useful yet?)?
-Jason
p.s. learning is a lifetime process...it appears you stopped somewhere...