ON TOPIC - Auto Paint & EPA
Kevin Wolford
worthwhile cause, this is it. Everyone here should do what little they can
to avoid another R12/R134A fiasco from happening. And yes, I consider this
ON TOPIC:
From Hemming's Weekly Newsletter:
Legislation
Hobbyists May Be Banned From Buying Paint
If you're planning on refinishing your car somewhere down the line, you
might want to think about buying your paint today.
Addressing the Collision Industry Conference on November 1, 2005, held at
the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Los Vegas in conjunction with the SEMA show, EPA
Environmental Protection Surface Coating Specialist Kim Teal outlined some
of her agency's plans for their next air-pollution rule from automotive
surface coating.
The last version of this rule, issued in February, 2004, was focused
primarily on bodyshops, but the new regulations, scheduled for release in
2007 and adoption in August, 2011, are far more sweeping.
"The rule will impact everyone, no matter how much you use," she is reported
as saying in Automotive Body Repair News. That may have a major effect on
the hobby, as "the rule will attempt to restrict sales of paint to people
who are not certified users."
This language has some powerful support. In a letter to Teal dated October
26, 2005,representatives from the Automotive Service Association (ASA) and
National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA), recommended steps that sound
uncannily like Teal's remarks just a few days later.
The letter, which suggests measures to be incorporated in the proposed rule,
suggests that "Prospective purchasers and users of automotive refinishing
products would need to be employed by a certified shop...Clearly, reasonable
controls on the purchase and use of automotive refinishing products is key
to helping eliminate unnecessary VOC emissions..."
We'll let you draw your own conclusions about the EPA's, ASA's and NADA's
intentions, but if there was ever a piece of car-related legislation about
which to write your legislator, this is it. Kim Teal's contact information
can be found at www.epa.gov and your legislators at www.senate.gov and
www.house.gov. The original letter from ASA and NADA is available at
www.asashop.org.
- By David B. Traver Adolphus
Dick S.
and the small body shops.
Is there a house or senate bill number we should reference, or some rule
under an existing law, or are they just blowing smoke at this point?
Dick S.
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:xsadnaN_k9QFnune...@kconline.com...
John Poulos
retail sale, so I suspected it was coming. They are really going after
the small shade tree shops doing work in their garage but it will effect
everyone that is not "certified". They have been trying to make it
illegal to work on your own car at all, but the parts store guys have
fought that. I have enough friend in the business that will get me paint
even if the law passes, but that still sucks for most folks.
--
JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 R1 GT Hawk
63 Daytona convert.
62 Lark 2 door
60 Hawk
53 coupe rod.
Jim Turner
Collision Centers don't care about the hobbyist painting their own cars!
It's the "tree hugging whacko environmentalists" that are pushing this.
Probably because some whacko lived next door to a hobbyist that painted his
car in his garage! One thing to remember, the paints that are now used,
contain isocyanides, (cyanide) which can kill you. And unless you have an
"osha" <G> approved paint booth, or access to one, and the proper breathing
apparatus, (preferably a fresh air system) you probably shouldn't be
painting anyway. And, do you want to risk your health to save some $$$?
We used to "spray" hobbyists cars, they prepped 'em, and masked 'em, and all
we did was spray 'em. some were prepped pretty good, some, not so good. It's
all in the prep.
Everything seems to start in California, In July 1990 the use of HVLP (high
volume low pressure) spray guns were a mandatory thing, along with water
based primers. These are designed to "put more paint on the car, and less in
the air" and they do that, just takes a lot longer to spray a complete car.
The epa has been pushing this for a few years, seems that they are "afraid"
that the VOC's (volatile organic chemicals) that collision centers put in
the air are bad. Which, left unfiltered, and unregulated, they are.ALL of
the better shops have the proper equipment to paint, and dispose of the
waste.
When I ran a shop in So. Cal. I had to deal with the South Coast Air
Quality Management District (SCAQMD) and they had/have the power to shut
down a business. In Ca. I am still liable for any hazardous waste that the
shop I ran created, IF any of the waste turns up NOT properly disposed of,
and the dealer has been sold or out of business, I am still liable, which
really sucks, but, we paid dearly to get the HW properly disposed of. and we
always got a copy of the paperwork when it was delivered, and again when it
was destroyed, and a copy went to the Ca. epa dept.
Indiana, that's a whole different story! We "cook" our waste now, turn it
into a solid "cookie" and toss it in the dumpster, and that's legal, as it's
a solid waste, not a liquid, BUT, when we change filters, (once a month, and
about $500-600) the old filters are considered hazardous waste, go figure.
And about every year, they change the rules!
I painted the 62 ragtop I bought off eBay last year, the guy had "just done
all the body work and painted it" I just re did most of the body work and re
painted it. I have about $750 in paint materials alone in the car. etching
primer, catalyzed primer, color coat, clear coat reducers, hardeners etc.
and I'm probably pretty light on that number. We use DuPont and mix our own
colors, and we also get a large discount on liquids at the end of the month,
but, clear still costs about $150 a gallon, a complete will take about 3 to
4 quarts, giving enough to color sand and buff.
The days of the $200 paint jobs are long gone! Even Earl Scheib and Macco
are getting $400 and up
Jim (don't blame the Collision Industry) Turner
Craig Parslow
> contain isocyanides, (cyanide) which can kill you. And unless you have an
> "osha" <G> approved paint booth, or access to one, and the proper
> breathing apparatus, (preferably a fresh air system) you probably
> shouldn't be painting anyway. And, do you want to risk your health to save
> some $$$?
>
> We used to "spray" hobbyists cars, they prepped 'em, and masked 'em, and
> all we did was spray 'em. some were prepped pretty good, some, not so
> good. It's all in the prep.
>
> I painted the 62 ragtop I bought off eBay last year, the guy had "just
> done all the body work and painted it" I just re did most of the body work
> and re painted it. I have about $750 in paint materials alone in the car.
> etching primer, catalyzed primer, color coat, clear coat reducers,
> hardeners etc. and I'm probably pretty light on that number. We use DuPont
> and mix our own colors, and we also get a large discount on liquids at the
> end of the month, but, clear still costs about $150 a gallon, a complete
> will take about 3 to 4 quarts, giving enough to color sand and buff.
>
> The days of the $200 paint jobs are long gone! Even Earl Scheib and Macco
> are getting $400 and up
>
> Jim (don't blame the Collision Industry) Turner
Jim, that's very true about the cost of materials. I've been using PPG
Ditzer products, but all I do in my garage is prime (DX series of Epoxy
Primers) and use the high-build primer (K200, K38). Its not necessarily
saving the saving of a few $$ as why I do my own prep work, although I
leave the top coat for a 'real' bodyshop that has the proper down-draft
spraybooth that gets rid of the air borne paint before it settles on top of
your work. The reason I have to do the prep work in my garage is because no
body shop would think of, or 'waste' time preping certain areas of a
vehicle, one example being the fish plating on the frame of my truck; which
is still visible with a deck installed. If its my vehicle, I want it to
look good, just as you and most others here do. Our standards are often
higher than commercial body shops, and the old saying applies; "If you want
it done right; you must do it yourself!"
Craig.
Bob40
store enough components to paint cars well into the future.
Bob40
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:xsadnaN_k9QFnune...@kconline.com...
Kevin Wolford
without a hearing, vote, or any type of debate. In my estimation, the only
way to fight this is to write so many letters in opposition to what this Kim
Teal, EPA Environmental Protection Surface Coating Specialist, wants to do,
that it makes his/her job a political nightmare. If numerous congressmen
get enough letters that they have staffers contact Teal's office for
information on what is going on, Teal may get the message.
I've always been extremely troubled by the way the EPA is authorized to
enact rules and regulations. The way I look at it, the World War II
Generation made one hell of a sacrifice to make sure we wouldn't have to
tolerate dictators and zealots, and governance on a whim. It's way past
time to reign the EPA in.
"Dick S." <rshu...@no-spamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:zoednR6k8PR...@comcast.com...
Jeff Rice
mentioned that the
enforcement of this would be difficult, if not impossible.
Imagine the damage it would cause to the small businessman trying to survive
selling paint and bodywork materials to the smaller user.
Try telling them that they can't sell products to 60+% of their customers.
Maybe in California..
Maybe then only illegal aliens will be allowed in to paint for us all...
Jeff
"Kevin Wolford" wrote..
bi...@bondobilly.com
<stude...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>! One thing to remember, the paints that are now used,
>> contain isocyanides, (cyanide) which can kill you. And unless you have an
>> "osha" <G> approved paint booth, or access to one, and the proper
>> breathing apparatus, (preferably a fresh air system) you probably
>> shouldn't be painting anyway. And, do you want to risk your health to save
>> some $$$?
>
>>
>> We used to "spray" hobbyists cars, they prepped 'em, and masked 'em, and
>> all we did was spray 'em. some were prepped pretty good, some, not so
I can no longer purchase the paint used on the Gilden Hawk in this
ciunty and the twi below it. However, my body shop, can mix it for ne,
but it cannot go off property.
If I go upstate, 8 miles I can buy the paint.
Big trick, disposing of paper towels, filters, redcer ti ckean gun and
sealing the activator
bi...@bondobilly.com
wrote:
>All my refinishing thinners and paints are already labeled not for
>retail sale, so I suspected it was coming. They are really going after
By 2011 we might be buying a "prosumer" version of the water based
coatings that have been on the market. All we need is an inexpensive,
less than $500 electrostatic paint disperaer, Enough to chharge at
least a roof or rear quarter
Alex
the $5000 or so that a shop wants for a nice paint job.
Alex
"Jim Turner" <diskb...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:ZiUcf.318378$084.204576@attbi_s22...
Alex
life.
"Bob40" <rup...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:2wVcf.12697$cg....@news02.roc.ny...
John Poulos
http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/
Alex wrote:
> $750 sounds about right for paint and materials. Still beats the hell out of
> the $5000 or so that a shop wants for a nice paint job.
>
> Alex
>
>
Mike Hunter
the paint they buy will be the same paint used in shops?
Indeed you are correct, it is time for the average American to become aware
of what the environuts are doing to our county in the name of improving the
environment. We are ALL environmentalist in that we do not want to harm the
environment unnecessarily but the environmental extremist, that I view as
invironuts, have taken over the road to a better environment. We simply can
not allow the environuts to continue to force our industrial jobs to be
moved off shore, as they have with the jobs in steel, cement, paint,
chemical, oil, plastics, etc over the past twenty five years with
extraordinarily harsh environmental laws that actually do little to help the
environment.
I was their actions that cause paint to literally blow off of our cars in
the last decade. Setting standards is fine but setting standards
arbitrarily with out allowing the industry time to first develop replacement
products is ridicules. The invironuts like to set dates for manufactures to
comply rather than setting a goal to create newer better ways to do the
things we need to do to improve the environment . The asbestos debacle is
another example of date setting rather than allow the industry time to
develop a suitable replacement products. That led to failed gasket
thought-out the industry and cost the industry and customers millions of
dollars and much bad will.
The insistence on higher fuel mileage in the seventies, by a date certain
rather than allowing the industry time to meet those goals, resulted in
poorly running underpowered vehicles and actually set back by ten years the
advancement in the cleaner more fuel efficient vehicles available on the
market today..
What possible difference can it make to allow individuals to buy paint, when
the paint they buy will be the same paint used in shops?
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:xsadnaN_k9QFnune...@kconline.com...
mid...@earthlink.net
Jeff Rice wrote:
.
> Maybe in California..
> Maybe then only illegal aliens will be allowed in to paint for us all...
> Jeff
>
grandkids, nephews and neices, neighborhood kids. and so on how to pick
fruit and vegetables, cut grass, wash cars, clean houses and businsses,
bus tables and whatever, the illegals could/would probably go home.
In your/our daily life we all support the "illegals" industry.
Karl
Bob40
adapt any change...i.e. safety belts,side marker lights,air bags,unless
prodded to the point of being forced.Cuts into profits.The same can be said
for the addition of scrubbers on coal fired electricity plants.I'm no
environut but just look at the way any super huge business runs and watch as
they stall things out for years.They have the technology,they have built the
products but will never/wont use them until they have to.
Bob40 ...tossing in my wooden nickles worth
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:xoCcnU8leNu...@ptd.net...
Kevin Wolford
emission controls on a modern car aren't included in the price, think again.
If a company has to pay for something, the customer always ends up paying
for it sooner or later.
Some of the things the EPA and NHSTA have forced are good things. Some
would have come to market without regulation (like Fuel Injection). Many
wouldn't have. I would argue that the agencies, especially in recent
years, have become Bureaucratic Job Preservation and Justification
Departments, instead of advocates for positive change. The returns from
further regulative intrusion into corporate and private lives are becoming
so minimal, that the price of further regulations, both economic and in the
loss of personal freedoms, are too severe. Especially if elected officials
have no checks or balances on the system. That's the case with the EPA.
"Bob40" <rup...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:Bv4df.12817$cg....@news02.roc.ny...
Jim Caldwell
about the ozone layer or controlling all types of pollution. Next who thinks
that stringent rules in North America is going to make a large difference in
world environmental pollution. Our EPA is worried about our pollution but who
is policeing the rest of the world? Sorry for the brief rant but I have always
wondered what the answers to the above questions would be if asked of the EPA.
Kevin Wolford
how R12 could get many miles into the upper atmosphere to "destroy" the
ozone layer, given the fact that if released in a shop the gas was heavier
than air and ended up hugging the floor.
The exchange I got into degraded to the EPA representative claiming that R12
itself was not the offending compound, it was the decay of R12 leading to
the release of free chlorine that had the negative effect on the ozone
layer.
I then wrote back asking why laundry bleach and pool chlorine was still
allowed for sale if chlorine was the big problem. I received no further
correspondence after that.
I've also read where some of the tile adhesion problems on the Space Shuttle
descend from EPA regulations forcing NASA to use water based adhesives to
glue the tiles to the shuttle (to reduce VOC (volatile organic compound)
emissions, of course!) Flat out lunacy! Could the EPA have cost us the
lives of some brave astronauts? (I guess astronauts aren't "Endangered
Species", though.)
If you think auto paint is the only thing to be affected by this over anal
environmental lunacy, think about the other oil based paint applications,
and adhesive applications that will be affected. Will "Liquid Nails" be
available? How about oil based barn and fence paint????
If we don't stand up for our rights, unfortunately, someone is waiting to
take them away from us. The EPA MUST be made accountable for their actions.
Our rights are too valuable to just put them to the wind in the name of
panic and junk science tailored to a political point of view! This appeal
should cross party affiliations, and goes to the very existence of our
hobby, and way of life! I've had it with the EPA. We need to put a
moratorium on any further environmental regulation NOW!
"Jim Caldwell" <llew...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:j5CdnQD0p7V...@gbronline.com...
John Poulos
no idea why they did not explain that, but I Googled it for you:
"Chlorofluorocarbons are not "washed" back to Earth by rain or destroyed
in reactions with other chemicals. They simply do not break down in the
lower atmosphere and they can remain in the atmosphere from 20 to 120
years or more. As a consequence of their relative stability, CFCs are
instead transported into the stratosphere where they are eventually
broken down by ultraviolet (UV) rays from the Sun, releasing free
chlorine. The chlorine becomes actively involved in the process of
destruction of ozone. The net result is that two molecules of ozone are
replaced by three of molecular oxygen, leaving the chlorine free to
repeat the process:
Cl + O3 ® ClO + O2
ClO + O ® Cl + O2
Ozone is converted to oxygen, leaving the chlorine atom free to repeat
the process up to 100,000 times, resulting in a reduced level of ozone."
--
Gordon Richmond
solar UV being absorbed by normal oxygen (O2), breaking the O-O bond,
releasing monatomic oxygen, which is VERY reactive. Some of it
immediately recombines to form O2 again, but some combines to form the
triple molecule, O3, which is ozone.
If CFCs can break down in the upper atmosphere, releasing free
chlorine to destroy the ozone layer, why is it that HCFCs do not break
down, given that both are supposedly "stable" compounds.
In any case, since it is the FORMATION of ozone that causes the
absorption of quanta of UV light, what difference does it make if the
ozone is immediately broken down once more, as long there continues to
be a supply of normal diatomic oxygen molecules available to absorb UV
and by so doing, form the ozone?
Gord Richmond
Jeff DeWitt
agencies that needed to be abolished, among them are the EPA, CIA, IRS,
DOE (both of them), TVA, FCC.
The only thing any of these agencies are really good at is wasting our
money making our lives more complicated and costing us our freedom.
Jeff DeWitt
Dave's Place
> agencies that needed to be abolished, among them are the EPA, CIA, IRS,
> DOE (both of them), TVA, FCC.
Add FEMA to the list, in my book.
(I have some experience with them.)
--
Dave Lester
Dave's Place
Home of the Internationally Renowned Studebakers, 'Sheba and Goliath
See pictures at www.davesplaceinc.com
randee
Jim Turner wrote:
>
One thing to remember, the paints that are now used,
> contain isocyanides, (cyanide) which can kill you.
AFAIK, the old standby, nitrocellulose lacquer, is still available,
altho only in black nowadays. Properly sanded it still provides the
best depth of any paint I have seen. Best paint job I think I ever
judged was a maroon nitrocellulose job (think Duco) some 30 years ago on
a Duesy. Altho the modern paints perhaps last longer, they have lost
that wonderful depth.
--
wf.
Alex
air in the Grand Canyon. That is caused by the californian pollution and the
pollution from the power plants in Nevada. And the acid rain that is
destroying lakes back east comes mostly from the states to the west.
"Jim Caldwell" <llew...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:j5CdnQD0p7V...@gbronline.com...
Kevin Wolford
Mother nature itself creates more free chlorine than man ever has.
The ozone hole opens and closes every year, as it has for eons. Why does
the hole open and close?
You hear very little about it now, because environmentalists shut down R12,
caused a whole bunch of trouble, got their way, and are on to trying to
craft their next Henny Penny Crisis.
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:vN-dnXuaXZs...@comcast.com...
Jeff Rice
Interesting how the media driven ozone spin, the legislation, the patent
expiration date all fall into a nice sequence...
Kind of shows who pulls the environmentalist puppet strings...
Jeff (and the legislators puppet strings...) Rice
"Kevin Wolford" wrote...
>I will never buy it John. Period.
>
> Mother nature itself creates more free chlorine than man ever has.
>
> The ozone hole opens and closes every year, as it has for eons. Why does
> the hole open and close?
>
> You hear very little about it now, because environmentalists shut down
> R12, caused a whole bunch of trouble, got their way, and are on to trying
> to craft their next Henny Penny Crisis.
>
> "John Poulos" wrote...
Kevin Wolford
on forever. But I feel you need a better explanation than "I won't buy it,
period".
The chemical reaction is fact. But this theory, and other theories of
environmental doomsday science, draw conclusions from a simple fact and
assume there are no other inputs or variables that affect the given reaction
at face value. They depend on statements such as "repeat the process up to
100,000 times", and "they can remain in the atmosphere from 20 to 120 years
or more". On top of that, they explain complicated theoretical issues that
can't be seen, felt, heard or touched. They build an image in the mind.
In the sake of brevity, I'd like to equate Doomsday Environmentalism to the
many older folks I knew growing up who swore that the Apollo Moon Walks were
created on a back lot somewhere in Hollywood. The parallels are multiple.
The older folks couldn't explain the fact astronauts were on TV and on the
Moon any other way than that "it was staged". Unfortunately, Doomsday
Environmentalists often draw conclusions from a set of facts that could only
remain whole in a sterile, controlled environment. And they prey on the
fact the public likes to solve complex problems simply.
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:u6GdnTbPx8K...@kconline.com...
John Poulos
global warming, the cutting of the rain forests and rest won't effect me
very much. <g>
poor N8<g>
Jeff DeWitt
>>For a long time I've believed that there were a bunch of alphabet
>>agencies that needed to be abolished, among them are the EPA, CIA, IRS,
>>DOE (both of them), TVA, FCC.
>
>
> Add FEMA to the list, in my book.
>
> (I have some experience with them.)
Done! <G>
Jeff DeWitt
Mike Hunter
That's ozone you smell and there are hundreds of electrical storms somewhere
in the world 24/7 The strange part is if an electric furnace in as steel
mill produces ozone the company is fined thousands of dollars by the EPA. I
wonder when the EPA will ever find a way to fine someone for electrical
storms? Perhaps the ACLU will argue the government is promoting religion by
not fining churches for electrical storm ozone pollution The nuts are
indeed running the asylum today ;)
mike hunt
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:u6GdnTbPx8K...@kconline.com...
Mike Hunter
involved
When the Congress authorized the NHTSA and the EPA, by a stretching the
commerce clause, one of the regulation enacted REQUIRED manufactures to
include the cost of all safety and pollution control equipment in the base
price of the vehicle, just as they passed laws that required that there be
no posting of the amount of taxes on gasoline, under penalty of loosing
federal highways trust fund money that those taxes collected. The current
federal gas tax is 18.5C a gallon and state taxes are as high as 63C, far
more than anybody in the oil business earns per gallon.
mike hunt
"Jeff DeWitt" <JeffD...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TZedf.92$3o6....@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Mike Hunter
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
John Poulos
it. the fact that pollution of all kinds has been reduced significantly
by EPA standards proves that man is the biggest polluter.
Mike Hunter
( even though it meets every requirement to be on the list) that would
required a license to use it and toxic disposal efforts that would quadruple
the price of an oil change. Car owners, like swimming pool owners and those
that bleach their whites, are voters and they would get pissed off and vote
against those in office if they needed a license to use those products.
mike hunt
"Kevin Wolford" <kwol...@NOSPAMkconline.com> wrote in message
news:-cWdnbV9spPR9eje...@kconline.com...
Mike Hunter
is rising. However assuming man can do anything to change that, except
perhaps in specific local areas, is a rather moronic concept. The
archeological record proves changes are the result of forces beyond the
control of man. forces like the movement of tectonic plates that change
water temperature that result in warmer air can not be effected by man. Sun
spots that effect are atmosphere are beyond mans control and the relative
position of the sun to the earth or thousand of years is beyond man control
as well any or all of those forces when they change are forces effects the
climate on earth. It proves beyond any doubt that the planet has been much
warmer and much colder at various times in the past. The archeological
record proves that during the 160 million years that the dinosaurs roamed
the earth the average temperate was at least four degrees warmer than they
are predicting for the world in fifty years.
The archeological record proves the oceans have been much higher and lower
than they are now. The archeological record proves the icecaps have been
large an smaller than they are today. Any climatologists worth his salt
will tell you climate is cyclical and beyond the control of mere man and
that they can not predict the climate out any further than five days,
period. Certainly we should not unnecessarily ruin our environment but
beyond that man is be rather presumptuous to believe it can actually change
the climate. Any of the current computer climate change models in use today
can not account for the last ice age, just 35,000 years ago, when used to
determine what the climate was actually know to have been back then
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:09OdnaK9-eG...@comcast.com...
Mike Hunter
and every river in the US that is situated or runs through forested land is
acidic. Go to the Georgia swamps in the midst of the pine forests and you
will see water so acidic and dark that the fish are blackened. The natural
product know as 'Tannin' is the reason and it is a by product of decaying
vegetation. Tannin has been used to preserve leather ever since the Indians
first found a dead deer in a swamp and it hide was much tougher then
untreated hides.
mike hunt
"Alex" <En...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:dl3vv...@news2.newsguy.com...
Mike Hunter
atmosphere was much higher than todays 21% or so. During the 160 million
years the dinosaurs roamed the earth there was so much oxygen in the air
that dinosaurs did not need a diaphragm to breath. Some believe it was the
lack of a diaphragm that led to their demise 65 million years ago when the
oxygen levels dropped over time while the mammals, with a diaphragms
survived.. Everyone has a theory it seems. ;)
mike hunt
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:wZSdnWxojaS...@comcast.com...
John Poulos
warming by burning fossil fuels:
http://whyfiles.org/updates/080global_warm/
John Poulos
active volcano, but pollution has come down in cities due to pollution
controls. You can't ignore the data.
Mike Hunter
US since the seventies. That is not the point however. Had the regulation
been more reasonable that would have allowed industry enough time to develop
the engineering to find newer better ways of reducing pollution rather than
settling unreasonable dates to reach a required reduction, the current rate
of pollution rate would likely be even lower. The patch work pollution
devices added to car to meet a date certain back then only delayed by at
least ten years the development of the extremely efficient and clean
vehicles offered on the market today. Had industry in general been give
enough time to develop newer more effective products perhaps we would not
have forced so much of our manufacturing out of the business or out the
country
mike hunt
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:demdnSJ68P8...@comcast.com...
Mike Hunter
calling a dummy is a genius when it comes to global temperature change? (The
environuts do not call it global warming now that many areas of the plant
are cooling down) What he said was the earth is warming but there is
nothing we can do to stop it LOL
mike hunt
"John Poulos" <ava...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:demdnSN68P9...@comcast.com...
Jeff Rice
I hear the sound of squealing tires...
This thread is swerving OFF TOPIC faster than an SUV rolling over in a
snowstorm....<lol>
John Poulos
porch light shot out, gets it.<g>
John Poulos
Alex
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:PumcnfSyTrY...@ptd.net...
bi...@bondobilly.com
wrote:
>All my refinishing thinners and paints are already labeled not for
>retail sale, so I suspected it was coming. They are really going after
As with anything we get ourselves involved with, there are products
that are always labeled, known to cause cancer in the state of
California.
The other night the History channel did a 60 min show the story of
paint. Because of the anount of VOC's that are now being put into the
atmosphere they are coming out with some amazing products.
In the 30's and 40's of the paint applied to a car almost 60% of the
VOC's were going out the stacks. Today, using water as the solvent,
mixed with some petroleum products, less than 1% VOC is going up and
out so to speak.
Problem is that they have yet to come out with a user friendly water
based coatings that we can use with ease.
We had a dear friend who was a suprem court judge in NY, he had a
slogan, educate, don't legislate. BASF and 3M were discussing a
polymer style coating for all types of vehicles that would "heal"
themselves.
Should the coating be compromised, a matching liquid comes out from
under the hardened surface and repairs the damge.
This legislation could be based on the cost of cleaning up or
disposing of the hobbyist waist products.
We used to have a paint mask washer, it removed the paint that
accumulated on metal masks we used on the trains, The solvent cost us
$285, tto remove the solvent and the paint residue, it was $1100.
Bill
mid...@earthlink.net
b...@bondobilly.com wrote:
> As with anything we get ourselves involved with, there are products
> that are always labeled, known to cause cancer in the state of
> California.
I think that our forces have caused Tijuana* to be unavailable as an
alternative.
Karl
*Pronounced Tee-wha-na, not Tee-ah-wa-na
Gordon Richmond
porch light shot out, gets it.<g>"
Maybe that's WHY he gets it? <BOSEG>
Gord Richmond
Mike Hunter
mike
"Alex" <En...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:dl6h7...@news2.newsguy.com...
Grumpy AuContraire
JT
(Sounds "timely" to me...)