UAW forced to be paid as a Southern Foreign factory worker.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 10:41:56 AM12/20/08

to

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121903856.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered to
join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker but
they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID can
people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting the
same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher standard
of life and there would have been an even playing field for all manufactures
from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese choose the
southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I guess the
article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern worker will
be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the southern worker. Its
a simple question of is everyone on board to make a lot of money or will a
segment of the community just drag others down to make a lesser amount of
money???

E. Meyer

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 12:34:33 PM12/20/08

to

On 12/20/08 9:41 AM, in article
494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com, "Rock Hardson"
<RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:

> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200812190385

If the Southern workers had joined the union and tried to force Detroit
style pay and benefit packages, then the Japanese plants would all be in
Mexico (just like many GM and Mercedes plants already are).

sept...@peoplepc.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:05:57 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 9:41 am, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

>
> The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered to
> join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker but
> they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID can
> people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting the
> same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher standard
> of life and there would have been an even playing field for all manufactures
> from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese choose the
> southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I guess the
> article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern worker will
> be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the southern worker. Its
> a simple question of is everyone on board to make a lot of money or will a
> segment of the community just drag others down to make a lesser amount of
> money???

I make it a point to NEVER buy any car, new or used, assembled by UAW
dumb-fuck overpaid slob morons...

There is not a single UAW leak in possession of a skill set worth
their extortionistic wage and benefit package. Back in the sixties,
8th. grade dropouts all over the country would wind up getting $25/hr.
to slap hubcaps on Fords and Chevys. Fuck the UAW and anyone who
supports them.

mech...@telusplanet.net

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:07:27 PM12/20/08

to

Stupid.... interesting term that could be applied to many different groups
of people...

Stupid... as in customers continuing to pay prices that have been driven
high by over-priced wage packages for union workers? Come on... this is
assembly line work... put tab A in slot B... what rolls off the end of the
line could be a toaster, a car or Mattels latest toy... It ain't rocket
science.

Someone is signing the cheque for this, doofus.... and that would be the
consumer...

Where I live, we have a labour shortage.... our local McDonalds is offering
$13 per hour.... I wonder how many 99 cent burgers you need to sell to make
that idea profitable?

I'm sure that all of your fellow Americans will love the hell out of you
calling them "ignorant".

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:17:45 PM12/20/08

to

"E. Meyer" <epme...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:C57288BC.155D%epme...@msn.com...

I got news for you, japanese are already in Mexico.
The US is there because of the Bush/Clinton NAFTA sellout/New world Order
BS.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:21:46 PM12/20/08

to

<sept...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:060c0f2f-c6a9-4e00...@c36g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over again
8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy. If you have
a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your while
and get paid for it. And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
American would you?

Gosi

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:23:06 PM12/20/08

to

On 20 Dec, 19:07, <mecha...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Stupid.... interesting term that could be applied to many different groups
> of people...
>
> Stupid... as in customers continuing to pay prices that have been driven
> high by over-priced wage packages for union workers? Come on... this is
> assembly line work... put tab A in slot B... what rolls off the end of the
> line could be a toaster, a car or Mattels latest toy... It ain't rocket
> science.
>
> Someone is signing the cheque for this, doofus.... and that would be the
> consumer...
>
> Where I live, we have a labour shortage.... our local McDonalds is offering
> $13 per hour.... I wonder how many 99 cent burgers you need to sell to make
> that idea profitable?
>
> I'm sure that all of your fellow Americans will love the hell out of you
> calling them "ignorant".
>
> "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>

> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

>
> > The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered
> > to join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker
> > but they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID
> > can people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting
> > the same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher
> > standard of life and there would have been an even playing field for all
> > manufactures from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese
> > choose the southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I
> > guess the article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern
> > worker will be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the
> > southern worker. Its a simple question of is everyone on board to make a
> > lot of money or will a segment of the community just drag others down to
> > make a lesser amount of money???

The quality control of Toyota is done by each worker.
If someone notices that something is missing from a former step they
pull the chain and stop the line.
In the beginning the line was stopping all the time.
Then the quality improved and the line hardly ever needs to be
stopped.

In GM they did not dare to do it so inspection is done after the car
has been sold and the customer finds something wrong.
First they deny the problem and then the customer gets angry and
stoppes buying GM cars.

That is a major difference and I have been waiting to see how long
this could go on like this.

It is very exciting to see that GM is finally dead and the prolonged
funeral is taking place over the next months.

RIP

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:25:35 PM12/20/08

to

<mech...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:Pnb3l.1181$Ve.564@edtnps82...

> Stupid.... interesting term that could be applied to many different groups
> of people...
>
> Stupid... as in customers continuing to pay prices that have been driven
> high by over-priced wage packages for union workers? Come on... this is
> assembly line work... put tab A in slot B... what rolls off the end of the
> line could be a toaster, a car or Mattels latest toy... It ain't rocket
> science.
>
> Someone is signing the cheque for this, doofus.... and that would be the
> consumer...
>
> Where I live, we have a labour shortage.... our local McDonalds is
> offering $13 per hour.... I wonder how many 99 cent burgers you need to
> sell to make that idea profitable?
>
> I'm sure that all of your fellow Americans will love the hell out of you
> calling them "ignorant".
>

What do you know about fellow Americans when you would rather see your
dollars go to Japan rater than keep it here providing a stronger US economy.
I bet you are one who would rather see 100s of thousands om AMERICANS lose
jobs rather than bail out the US auto industry.

sept...@peoplepc.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:27:53 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 1:21 pm, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> <septic...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message

> American would you?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The UAW is living proof that one does not need to invest in oneself in
terms of high skills and knowledge. That, in and of itself, is
anathema to capitalism.

e.meyer

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:35:19 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 1:17 pm, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> "E. Meyer" <epmeye...@msn.com> wrote in message

>
> news:C57288BC.155D%epme...@msn.com...
>
> > On 12/20/08 9:41 AM, in article

> > 494d1243$0$1509$82264...@news.adtechcomputers.com, "Rock Hardson"
> > <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

Yes they are already in Mexico, and if the workers in the Southern US
states had sold out to the UAW, all those Southern US factories would
be gone, or never built in the first place.

You are obviously a union troll.

mech...@telusplanet.net

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 2:50:18 PM12/20/08

to

I would rather keep my dollar HERE making for a stronger Canadian economy
you self centered bastard...

As for my dollars going to Japan? Two Fords, a Harley Davidson and a holiday
trailer made in fucking Colorado are parked in my driveway and you have the
temerity to speak untruths???? My money goes to Japan? Fuck... even kittens
eventually open their eyes... FWIW, I'm a tech in a Ford store - in order to
pay those overpriced whining bastuhds, Ford has re-engineered the labour
rates that techs are paid for warranty repairs.... raped is about the best
word you could use there.

And now you are changing the tune you are playing... we have gone from
getting paid an appropriate wage to "losing jobs". The Japs are paying
assembly line labour pretty much what assembly line labour is worth... to
pretend it is worth more only drives the cost of the product higher...or
haven't you heard the term "inflation" before?

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message

news:494d46ae$0$1536$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Moses

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 3:34:11 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 9:41 am, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...
>

I'm sorry the workers may lose benefits but, the option is to shut
down American Auto companies. To understand, look at the history.
Unions organized in the 1930s and became very powerful by 1950. With
unsustainable profits and prosperity in the 1950s, the companies met
most union demands to keep the production lines rolling. Today, on
the other hand, the 3 remaining auto makers are on the brink of
banruptcy and most American consumers are unable to buy a 35,000
automobile.
I'd like to see all auto makers unionised but I'd also like to see the
price of cars reduced. Lets hope the OBama guys make significant
advances to level the plying field for all auto makers.
The Japanese companies have no retired pensioners to support but
companies like GM have thousands. Auto makers in foreign countries
can rely on the government to provide health care while here health
care costs knock your socks off. Hospital fees, like union benefits,
are based on a level of prosperity that hasn't existed in America for
40 years.
It's funny the administration demands auto makers to get rid of all
corporate jets. What about eliminating air force one? And what about
all those congressmen and Senators who are flown wherevever they want
to go by military aircraft?

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 4:14:43 PM12/20/08

to

You are almost correct for change, worker in domestic assembly can't pull a
chain. They have to push the big red stop button to halt the line when
someone caused an error or notices that something is missing to stop the
line when there is a problem.

Why don't you say in my opinion when you post your goofy comments? You are
entitled to that, but at least then you will simply appear to be uninformed
and not just stupid LOL

"Gosi" <gos...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:fc3b7194-3d91-41c1-946f->

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 5:20:39 PM12/20/08

to

What do you do for a living?

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 5:25:56 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 2:07 pm, <mecha...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Stupid.... interesting term that could be applied to many different groups
> of people...
>
> Stupid... as in customers continuing to pay prices that have been driven
> high by over-priced wage packages for union workers? Come on... this is
> assembly line work... put tab A in slot B... what rolls off the end of the
> line could be a toaster, a car or Mattels latest toy... It ain't rocket
> science.
>
> Someone is signing the cheque for this, doofus.... and that would be the
> consumer...
>
> Where I live, we have a labour shortage.... our local McDonalds is offering
> $13 per hour.... I wonder how many 99 cent burgers you need to sell to make
> that idea profitable?
>
> I'm sure that all of your fellow Americans will love the hell out of you
> calling them "ignorant".
>
> "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>

> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

>
> > The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered
> > to join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker
> > but they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID
> > can people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting
> > the same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher
> > standard of life and there would have been an even playing field for all
> > manufactures from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese
> > choose the southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I
> > guess the article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern
> > worker will be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the
> > southern worker. Its a simple question of is everyone on board to make a
> > lot of money or will a segment of the community just drag others down to
> > make a lesser amount of money???

Just 8% of a car's cost is labor. Fifty percent is parts. The rest,
42%,is sucked up do-nothing, fat-assed managers - the real cause for
the decline of American business. In a Japanese car company the
manager who has to layoff people must lay himself off. Never happens
in American corporations. Management is like a diaper, always on your
ass and always full of shit.

When I have a UK manager, I'm managed in an enlightened way. Never
happens with American managers.

Gosi

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 6:12:28 PM12/20/08

to

On 20 Dec, 22:25, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

The manager was trying to make a decision about Jack and Jill.
He is talking to Jill and says I am not sure if I should lay you or
Jack off.
She answered that he should jack off.

Jack

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 8:51:54 PM12/20/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

So a bail will do what ?? There's hundreds of thousands of their cars
sitting unsold on car lots...oh yeah, lets get them back to work to make
many more thousands of cars that nobody wants so they came park them on
lots.

I'd personally like to see all three go down the tubes...get rid of their
management, unions, and baggage. Let the Jap companies buy up the corpses
and resurrect them into efficient concerns.

cleanwi...@gmail.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 8:57:24 PM12/20/08

to

On Dec 20, 5:51 pm, "Jack" <bigcletus...@yahoo.com.com> wrote:
> "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>

> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

>
> > The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered
> > to join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker
> > but they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID
> > can people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting
> > the same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher
> > standard of life and there would have been an even playing field for all
> > manufactures from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese
> > choose the southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I
> > guess the article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern
> > worker will be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the
> > southern worker. Its a simple question of is everyone on board to make a
> > lot of money or will a segment of the community just drag others down to
> > make a lesser amount of money???
>
> So a bail will do what ?? There's hundreds of thousands of their cars
> sitting unsold on car lots...oh yeah, lets get them back to work to make
> many more thousands of cars that nobody wants so they came park them on
> lots.
>
> I'd personally like to see all three go down the tubes...get rid of their
> management, unions, and baggage. Let the Jap companies buy up the corpses
> and resurrect them into efficient concerns.

========================================
1989-1998 240sx tutorials (91-94 unless indicated) :
========================================

Note: People are just sharing their experience in these articles/
tutorials. The authors are not experts. Always refer to factory
service manual for safety and expert opinion.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Trusting your life to something you read on the
internet is just plain stupid. Get corroboration from a more reliable
source, use your common sense, don't get yourself killed, and don't
come crying to us if you do

Mike Marlow

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 10:42:49 PM12/20/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:21:46 -0500, Rock Hardson cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

>
> Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
> paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over again
> 8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy.

It does not matter if it drives them crazy. If they want more interesting
work then let them get off their duff and get an education or develop
skills that will afford them those opportunities. Boring work is not a
justification for pay. If you don't have a lot to offer, you do the crummy
work for the crummy pay.

> If you have
> a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your while
> and get paid for it.

At minimum wage those people would indeed be getting all the pay
worthwhile. Don't like crazy mind draining activity? Then get off your
duff and improve yourself. Quit crying about mind draining activity.

> And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
> American would you?

I have no problem buying either American or import and my father is dead,
so he's not putting bread on the table for screwing in a bolt. He did
however, instill in us a drive to work for what you want and not rely on
lame whines like "mind draining". He taught us that if we don't like where
we are/what we're doing, then improve yourself in order to move on past it.
You might want to try the same.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net

Mike Marlow

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 10:44:25 PM12/20/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 11:27:53 -0800 (PST), sept...@peoplepc.com cast forth
these pearls of wisdom...:

> On Dec 20, 1:21 pm, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:

Indeed. Only in the union environment is stupid (mind-numbing) turned
around to be a merit, and a case for more money.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:12:11 PM12/20/08

to

"e.meyer" <epme...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:463c9c12-3550-43a6...@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

Not at all, you obviosly someone with no answers.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:14:42 PM12/20/08

to

<sept...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:6700b59e-7760-4886...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

No thats a matter of choice. Since when have you become concerned with
someone elses education??

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:33:28 PM12/20/08

to

"Jack" <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:494da138$0$5457$9a56...@news.aliant.net...

Uhhh...why not just sell the whole country off to the japanese?? We can then
depend on them to make everything we need even grow our own food. Yeh we can
then be totaly dependent on Japanese for our economy.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:22:08 PM12/20/08

to

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:11qblp5o740yd$.1pmm6suhfojjp$.dlg@40tude.net...

Wow...and what do you think the union was developed for? Why were people
dying and getting there heads cracked open in the 20 and 30's? Maybe so
people like you or your father could actually do a job no matter how menial
or mind numbing with dignity and respect without being walked over and
disrepected by corporate and for that matter people like you.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:35:03 PM12/20/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message

news:494dc2b3$0$1515$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> The UAW is living proof that one does not need to invest in oneself in
> terms of high skills and knowledge. That, in and of itself, is
> anathema to capitalism.
>
> No thats a matter of choice. Since when have you become concerned with
> someone elses education??

The UAW is organized crime syndicate that has bilked the American people out
of billions of dollars.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:42:27 PM12/20/08

to

<mech...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:_%b3l.1190$Ve.576@edtnps82...

>I would rather keep my dollar HERE making for a stronger Canadian economy
>you self centered bastard...
>

Ohh did I touch a nerve? Me self centered? You are the one who doesn't give
a damn about US workers, oh right you must be canadian so who cares.

> As for my dollars going to Japan? Two Fords, a Harley Davidson and a
> holiday trailer made in fucking Colorado are parked in my driveway and you
> have the temerity to speak untruths???? My money goes to Japan? Fuck...
> even kittens eventually open their eyes... FWIW, I'm a tech in a Ford
> store - in order to pay those overpriced whining bastuhds, Ford has
> re-engineered the labour rates that techs are paid for warranty
> repairs.... raped is about the best word you could use there.
>

Yeh rape... funny what can happen when there is not an even playing field
and people are against the wall because they need to get paid. Those who
want to see American industry fail will find out soon enough what its like
to get raped once the economical trickle down takes effect. Brother havn't
been raped yet.

And what is wrong with Colorado that you have to defame that too?

>

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:49:06 PM12/20/08

to

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:11qblp5o740yd$.1pmm6suhfojjp$.dlg@40tude.net...

He taught you to improve yourself?? Well maybe its what the unionizers
fathers in the 20s and 30s taught them too. Maybe its because that got tired
of doing a job no matter how menial or dirty it was while being walked over
and disrespected by corporate or for that matter people like you. Maybe
because they thought they had a right in sharing some of the wealth the
ceo's were making off there semi slave labor.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 20, 2008, 11:52:43 PM12/20/08

to

"Jack" <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:494da138$0$5457$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
>

> "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
> news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121903856.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR
>>
>> The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered
>> to join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker
>> but they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID
>> can people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting
>> the same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher
>> standard of life and there would have been an even playing field for all
>> manufactures from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese
>> choose the southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I
>> guess the article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern
>> worker will be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the
>> southern worker. Its a simple question of is everyone on board to make a
>> lot of money or will a segment of the community just drag others down to
>> make a lesser amount of money???
>
> So a bail will do what ?? There's hundreds of thousands of their cars
> sitting unsold on car lots...oh yeah, lets get them back to work to make
> many more thousands of cars that nobody wants so they came park them on
> lots.

You mean like the Ford F-150, or the Chevy Silverado? You know, the #1 and
#2 top selling vehicles?

> I'd personally like to see all three go down the tubes...get rid of their
> management, unions, and baggage. Let the Jap companies buy up the corpses
> and resurrect them into efficient concerns.

Yes, what a very good thing we have the nice God-Like Japs to do everything
for us, right? Don't worry. If enough idiots like you keep running things,
the Japs will one day own the US, and the rest of the world. Perhaps you
will be happier then. Oh, and when WWIII breaks out, and Japan is against
us, they will build our weapons, and equipment too. Just because they are
nice. Idiot.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 12:04:46 AM12/21/08

to

"Gosi" <gos...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:fc3b7194-3d91-41c1...@p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

Again your Glee in American job loss is showing. I just wonder what type of
work you do and long you could sustain a job loss.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 12:06:10 AM12/21/08

to

"Gosi" <gos...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1aa154fe-a5d0-4f22...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

Not only are your comments asinine, but so are your jokes.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 12:08:00 AM12/21/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message

news:494dce6c$0$1494$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Gosi lives in Iceland. He is a sick asshole, who cares about no one but
himself.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 1:06:08 AM12/21/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message

news:494dce6c$0$1494$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> Again your Glee in American job loss is showing. I just wonder what type
> of work you do and long you could sustain a job loss.

Here is a question for you:

Suppose you were offered choice between these two:

1. Agree to only use gasoline made from crude oil produced in the US, which
would result in a price of $2.50 per gallon.

2. Willing to purchase gasoline made from imported or US crude oil so that
you only have to pay $1.50 per gallon and hundreds of thousands of US oil
industry jobs would be lost.

That's what I thought. Your buy American only counts when it applies to you.

Caesar Romano

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 3:27:17 AM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:33:28 -0500, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com>
wrote Re Re: UAW forced to be paid as a Southern Foreign factory
worker.:

>Uhhh...why not just sell the whole country off to the japanese?? We can then
>depend on them to make everything we need even grow our own food. Yeh we can
>then be totaly dependent on Japanese for our economy.

No can do. We have already sold ourselves to the Chinese.

Mike Marlow

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 7:30:34 AM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:22:08 -0500, Rock Hardson cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

> Wow...and what do you think the union was developed for? Why were people
> dying and getting there heads cracked open in the 20 and 30's? Maybe so
> people like you or your father could actually do a job no matter how menial
> or mind numbing with dignity and respect without being walked over and
> disrepected by corporate and for that matter people like you.

Actually, my father who was in the workforce through those formative years,
did not need a union to protect him any more than his son did throughout
his career. Maybe you have a romantic notion about what the unions are.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net

Jim Higgins

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 11:13:46 AM12/21/08

to

On Dec 20, 8:52 pm, "80 Knight" <nospam> wrote:
> "Jack" <bigcletus...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message

>
> news:494da138$0$5457$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
> >news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...

Keep on buying junkers 80, Red Ink Rick depends on you for his bonus!

Vic Smith

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 11:42:53 AM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:42:49 -0500, Mike Marlow
<mmarlo...@alltel.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:21:46 -0500, Rock Hardson cast forth these pearls of
>wisdom...:
>
>
>>
>> Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
>> paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over again
>> 8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy.
>
>It does not matter if it drives them crazy. If they want more interesting
>work then let them get off their duff and get an education or develop
>skills that will afford them those opportunities. Boring work is not a
>justification for pay. If you don't have a lot to offer, you do the crummy
>work for the crummy pay.
>

I guess you weren't notified.
UAW workers are well paid for tedious "crummy" work.
And so are the non-UAW transplant autoworkers.
That might just blow a hole in your theory about what is well paid
work, and what is "have a lot to offer."

>> If you have
>> a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your while
>> and get paid for it.
>
>At minimum wage those people would indeed be getting all the pay
>worthwhile. Don't like crazy mind draining activity? Then get off your
>duff and improve yourself. Quit crying about mind draining activity.
>

I repeat.
I guess you weren't notified.
UAW workers are well paid for tedious "crummy" work.
And so are the non-UAW transplant autoworkers.
They aren't paid minimum wage.
Sounds like that's disagreeable to your notions of fair pay.
Maybe you can form the MWU (minimum-wage union) to get it changed.
Just talk to some autoworkers and let them know what they are worth.
Start with some non-UAW Tennessee boys so's you don't get involved
in UAW business.
Let me know how that works out.

>> And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
>> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
>> American would you?
>
>I have no problem buying either American or import and my father is dead,
>so he's not putting bread on the table for screwing in a bolt. He did
>however, instill in us a drive to work for what you want and not rely on
>lame whines like "mind draining". He taught us that if we don't like where
>we are/what we're doing, then improve yourself in order to move on past it.
>You might want to try the same.

I hope he taught you that in general you have no sayso about peoples'
wages excepting your own.
And not to say in the face of the workers who tediously produce the
goods you consume that they are worth only minimum wage.
I'm guessing you already know that one way or another.
Now, why don't you go ahead and set minimum wage too.
Workers of the world need you badly.

--Vic

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 12:36:35 PM12/21/08

to

"Jim Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0add440-959c-4290...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

=======================================================

Keep on getting your welfare check, Jimmy.

E. Meyer

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 7:49:21 PM12/21/08

to

On 12/20/08 4:20 PM, in article
778f334f-558e-4223...@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com,
"edspy...@yahoo.com" <edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm a retired engineer (from a US company). How about you?

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 8:35:27 PM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:21:46 -0500, Rock Hardson wrote:

>
> I make it a point to NEVER buy any car, new or used, assembled by UAW
> dumb-fuck overpaid slob morons...
>
> There is not a single UAW leak in possession of a skill set worth
> their extortionistic wage and benefit package. Back in the sixties,
> 8th. grade dropouts all over the country would wind up getting $25/hr.
> to slap hubcaps on Fords and Chevys. Fuck the UAW and anyone who
> supports them.
>

> Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
> paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over again

> 8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy. If you have

> a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your while

> and get paid for it. And I bet if your father was putting bread on your

> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
> American would you?

At first I thought your original post was tongue-in-cheek and that you
were *FOR* UAW workers having their pay cut to match the pay of others
with similar jobs.

This post proves you really *ARE* as ignorant as your original post belies
you to be.

You don't really know anything about the car industry, do you?

Your last line in this post: if my father were putting bread on the table
screwing Toyotas together, why would I want to buy an American car?

Look through other posts I have made in other threads similar to this one.
I went and looked at an HHR. Two years ago. I am *STILL* waiting for the
car I asked for to show up: 171HP engine with a 5-speed. NO ONE HAS ONE!
It was listed as an option back in 2006.

I got fed up with waiting and bought yet another Toyota. The car I wanted
was sitting on the lot the second I drove in. It was the display piece.

Blame the workers? Maybe. Why should they get paid $25 an hour (~$68 with
benefits and pension figured in) when others do it for less?

Oh, and the workers for Japanese companies get rotated around the floor
and different lines so they don't get bored, and so they learn more. And
they also have the 'whistle' that will stop the entire factory when
defects are found.

Another Hammerhead post defending workers that shouldn't have jobs,
judging from the quality of the product they put out. If the Chinese sent
cars over here that were the same quality as US cars have been, you'd be
calling it "Cheap Chinese junk."

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 8:38:34 PM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:42:49 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

>> And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
>> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
>> American would you?
>
> I have no problem buying either American or import and my father is dead,
> so he's not putting bread on the table for screwing in a bolt. He did
> however, instill in us a drive to work for what you want and not rely on
> lame whines like "mind draining". He taught us that if we don't like where
> we are/what we're doing, then improve yourself in order to move on past it.

LOL! Right-o.

I had some mind-numbing jobs for slightly better than minimum wage.
No union in sight So I went out asap and got another job.

Assembling cars can be dangerous, and there should be pay accounting for
that. But the current wage structure is ridiculous.

I was making less than autoworkers when I was assembling and testing
aircraft components. Of course, that was a bit more stimulating than
turning bolts...

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 8:42:00 PM12/21/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:14:42 -0500, Rock Hardson wrote:

>> Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
>> paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over
>> again
>> 8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy. If you
>> have
>> a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your while
>> and get paid for it. And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
>> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
>> American would you?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> The UAW is living proof that one does not need to invest in oneself in
> terms of high skills and knowledge.

I am afraid I am lost...are you *FOR* UAW workers, or against???

This post leads me to believe you are against UAW. Make up your mind, will
ya?

IOW, this post says, "It's OK to remain stupid. The UAW will get your
money for you."

That's a good sentiment...Whew...

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 9:21:31 PM12/21/08

to

On Dec 21, 7:49 pm, "E. Meyer" <epmeye...@msn.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/08 4:20 PM, in article

> 778f334f-558e-4223-bab9-99a9fe9aa...@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com,

Still working at a Pharmaceutical company. They have finally got
around to outsourcing the entire messaging/IT departments. The
layoffs will happen June 2009, Dec 2009, and Aug 2010. Not sure which
one's net I will be caught in.

I think unions are getting some of the flak that should be directed to
our government. The government won't provide national healthcare
benefits but also enables companies to stop providing them because
that makes them too expensive compared to companies in other
countries. The government wants to get out of the retirement business
and offload Social Security to wall street but refuses to put limits
on wall street, and it enables companies to do away with retirement
pensions because providing them makes US companies less able to
compete with companies in other companies.

The government creates a market that permits all drug companies to
charge US citizens a much higher price for prescription drugs - enough
to make up for the loss of discounting prescription drugs to all
countries with national healthcare. It also makes it illegal to buy
the same drugs from Canada.

I think shooting for ideological purity will destroy all but the upper
class, the plutocrats; although how the plutocrats will continue to
exist without a working class who can afford to buy consumer goods is
beyond me.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 9:49:15 PM12/21/08

to

><edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:f86d32cf-eaea-4bcf...@e25g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

>
> I think unions are getting some of the flak that should be directed to
> our government. The government won't provide national healthcare
> benefits but also enables companies to stop providing them because
> that makes them too expensive compared to companies in other
> countries.

Nobody who works for a company with decent heath insurance is willing to
settle for the same kind of health care that is provided by those nations
with a national health care system. That is especially true of the UAW.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 9:52:31 PM12/21/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message
news:VZk3l.10473$M01....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

So your point is Japanese cars cost thousands less than American cars? Thats
your reasoning for buying Japanese? The last time I looked japanese cost
about the same or more. Also your hypothetical question makes little sense
to compare a $1.50 per gallon product to a $20,000 product. Its like asking
would I buy a hershey bar made in the U.S or a German made chocolate bar.
Not only that, the number of American workers working on oil rigs will have
no major effect on the US economy.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 9:58:35 PM12/21/08

to

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@alltel.net> wrote in message

news:1x5psd1jx10hl.1...@40tude.net...

I personally don't care what type of work daddy did, but the fact is the
unions were formed by workers who needed protection in certain industries.
If you were not part of that industry then you obviously did not need a
union. I personally never worked in industry so I have no use for a union,
but again the facts remain that some industries needed to be unionized.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 10:20:07 PM12/21/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message

news:494f00ee$0$1528$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> So your point is Japanese cars cost thousands less than American cars?
> Thats your reasoning for buying Japanese? The last time I looked japanese
> cost about the same or more. Also your hypothetical question makes little
> sense to compare a $1.50 per gallon product to a $20,000 product. Its like
> asking would I buy a hershey bar made in the U.S or a German made
> chocolate bar. Not only that, the number of American workers working on
> oil rigs will have no major effect on the US economy.

If everyone was forced to buy American cars (or did so voluntarily) the
price would increase because they would have no (or little) competition and
the quality would start to fall off dramatically.

If everyone was forced to buy gasoline produced from American oil companies,
the price would increase because they would have no (or little) competition.

In the late 1980's, when the price of oil hit a low of $8 per barrel, there
were about 500,000 US jobs lost in the oil industry, and other jobs lost in
the communities were those jobs were located. The oil industry jobs in
question are not just those who work on oil rigs.

Since those oil industry job loses didn't occur where you live, you don't
care, and you seem to suggesting the job losses don't really matter or
didn't even happen. I can assure you that those jobs losses had a
devastating effect on many part of Texas, Louisiana, Colorado, and other
places that went far beyond those directly employed in the oil industry.

Rock Hardson

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 10:24:38 PM12/21/08

to

"Hachiroku ハチロク" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.12.22....@e86.GTS...

> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:21:46 -0500, Rock Hardson wrote:
>
>>
>> I make it a point to NEVER buy any car, new or used, assembled by UAW
>> dumb-fuck overpaid slob morons...
>>
>> There is not a single UAW leak in possession of a skill set worth
>> their extortionistic wage and benefit package. Back in the sixties,
>> 8th. grade dropouts all over the country would wind up getting $25/hr.
>> to slap hubcaps on Fords and Chevys. Fuck the UAW and anyone who
>> supports them.
>>
>> Yeh...and its just fine to that Japanese CEO get billions in return for
>> paying workers $14 and hour to screw on a bolt over and over and over
>> again
>> 8 hours a day. You try doing that and see if you don't go crazy. If you
>> have
>> a job doing crazy mind draining activity at least make it worth your
>> while
>> and get paid for it. And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
>> table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
>> American would you?
>
> At first I thought your original post was tongue-in-cheek and that you
> were *FOR* UAW workers having their pay cut to match the pay of others
> with similar jobs.
>
> This post proves you really *ARE* as ignorant as your original post belies
> you to be.
>

> You don't really know anything about the car industry, do you?

Probably just as much if not more as you.

>
> Your last line in this post: if my father were putting bread on the table
> screwing Toyotas together, why would I want to buy an American car?

Learn to read english, because thats not what the last line says.

>
> Look through other posts I have made in other threads similar to this one.
> I went and looked at an HHR. Two years ago. I am *STILL* waiting for the
> car I asked for to show up: 171HP engine with a 5-speed. NO ONE HAS ONE!
> It was listed as an option back in 2006.

> I got fed up with waiting and bought yet another Toyota. The car I wanted
> was sitting on the lot the second I drove in. It was the display piece.
>
>
> Blame the workers? Maybe. Why should they get paid $25 an hour (~$68 with
> benefits and pension figured in) when others do it for less?

$25 and hour isnt that much in todays economy, how many people really add in
the cost of benefits into there entire salary other than to exagerate a
point. If I am making $100,000 per year should I say I really make $140,000
a year with my health and other benefits? Is that the new way of now
determining someones salary or is it just a new way to exagerate a point to
make a point?
>

> Oh, and the workers for Japanese companies get rotated around the floor
> and different lines so they don't get bored, and so they learn more. And
> they also have the 'whistle' that will stop the entire factory when
> defects are found.
>

And I thought all car manufacturers were now rotating around the floor.

> Another Hammerhead post defending workers that shouldn't have jobs,
> judging from the quality of the product they put out. If the Chinese sent
> cars over here that were the same quality as US cars have been, you'd be
> calling it "Cheap Chinese junk."
>

So now you are determining who should not have a job?? Where should they
be... on welfare on your tax dollar? Another knucklehead post who crawled
out from under a rock.
And how would you know the quality of a US car, you drive a Toyota. You are
pissed because you couldn't find a HHR, at least that is your excuse. If the
quality was so bad why were you looking for a HHR?? Whos posts are ignorant?
>

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 10:53:10 PM12/21/08

to

On Dec 21, 9:49 pm, "Mark A" <some...@someone.com> wrote:
> ><edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

BUT, how many people have good healthcare plans? The number is
dwindling. In addition, very few can afford the increasing costs of
medical treatments without an HMO. Do you know the stats on how many
people use emergency rooms as their doctor? All opponents of
universal healthcare say taxes will increase. Well, I will lose my
excellent medical plan soon when I'm outsourced and layed off. To
provide something similar will cost me $12,000 or more a year. That
is going to be a stretch if I wind up making $25,000 a year in one of
the few service jobs still available.

Most of the people here who rant and rave about universal healthcare
are retired. I expect a storm of flame posts.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 21, 2008, 11:05:35 PM12/21/08

to

> <edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:00f16450-205e-4612...@r28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...

> BUT, how many people have good healthcare plans? The number is
> dwindling. In addition, very few can afford the increasing costs of
> medical treatments without an HMO. Do you know the stats on how many
> people use emergency rooms as their doctor? All opponents of
> universal healthcare say taxes will increase. Well, I will lose my
> excellent medical plan soon when I'm outsourced and layed off. To
> provide something similar will cost me $12,000 or more a year. That
>is going to be a stretch if I wind up making $25,000 a year in one of
> the few service jobs still available.

Maybe you are confusing "good" with "free" (or close to free). I am talking
about quality, not cost.

In virtually all countries that provide government health care, they decide
what doctor you go to, they decide what treatment will be done (unless you
go to a private doctor and pay for it yourself). Even if you get the
treatment you want, you might have wait months or years to get it, unless it
is emergency surgery. If you are of a certain age, they will often not
approve certain procedures because they cost too much for someone who
doesn't have a lot of years to live (they decide what "a lot" means).

Now, whether or not these things that are characteristic of government run
health care systems are reasonable or not, the UAW will not accept them for
their own coverage. If they did, the Big 3 auto workers would not need to
borrow billions from the US government to stay in business.

BTW, who was chosen as our company's outsourcing provider?

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 12:46:22 AM12/22/08

to

On Dec 21, 11:05 pm, "Mark A" <some...@someone.com> wrote:
> > <edspyhil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> >news:00f16450-205e-4612...@r28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> > BUT, how many people have good healthcare plans? The number is
> > dwindling. In addition, very few can afford the increasing costs of
> > medical treatments without an HMO. Do you know the stats on how many
> > people use emergency rooms as their doctor? All opponents of
> > universal healthcare say taxes will increase. Well, I will lose my
> > excellent medical plan soon when I'm outsourced and layed off. To
> > provide something similar will cost me $12,000 or more a year. That
> >is going to be a stretch if I wind up making $25,000 a year in one of
> > the few service jobs still available.
>
> Maybe you are confusing "good" with "free" (or close to free). I am talking
> about quality, not cost.
>

I'm talking 'good' or 'free'. I'm talking some or none. You know, it
doesn't have to be government supplied, managed, etc. Just make the
providers switch to non-profit.

The outsourcing has several streams and centers, Central America,
Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, and a large American corporation. The
goal is to outsource all services and operations. I don't want to get
too specific.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 1:46:51 AM12/22/08

to

<edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3ac36b4f-e34b-413a...@e24g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

> I'm talking 'good' or 'free'. I'm talking some or none. You know, it
> doesn't have to be government supplied, managed, etc. Just make the
> providers switch to non-profit.

No one is forcing companies to deal with providers that are for proift. In
fact there are a number of health care systems that are non-profit, but they
are typically not as efficient as the for profit ones. Of course, since you
are a socialist, you will not ever admit that.

Most of the Blue-Cross Plans were non-profit until the last 10-15 years when
switched over to for profit organizations. Many hospitals are non-profit,
but they are usually the ones in the most financial trouble.

Most large companies such as IBM and GM are self-insured, and they only pay
a fee for an insurance company to do claims administration, so in that sense
they are non-profit because the companies are trying to reduce costs, but
not make a profit.

While we are making companies non-profit, I guess that apply to your company
also, which means that you will would have to take a pay cut (people who
work for non-profit rarely make as much as those in a for profit company).

JimG

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 2:30:57 AM12/22/08

to

Well said!

"Moses" <awe...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:76718d19-a702-43cc...@n28g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 20, 9:41 am, "Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR200...
>

I'm sorry the workers may lose benefits but, the option is to shut
down American Auto companies. To understand, look at the history.
Unions organized in the 1930s and became very powerful by 1950. With
unsustainable profits and prosperity in the 1950s, the companies met
most union demands to keep the production lines rolling. Today, on
the other hand, the 3 remaining auto makers are on the brink of
banruptcy and most American consumers are unable to buy a 35,000
automobile.
I'd like to see all auto makers unionised but I'd also like to see the
price of cars reduced. Lets hope the OBama guys make significant
advances to level the plying field for all auto makers.
The Japanese companies have no retired pensioners to support but
companies like GM have thousands. Auto makers in foreign countries
can rely on the government to provide health care while here health
care costs knock your socks off. Hospital fees, like union benefits,
are based on a level of prosperity that hasn't existed in America for
40 years.
It's funny the administration demands auto makers to get rid of all
corporate jets. What about eliminating air force one? And what about
all those congressmen and Senators who are flown wherevever they want
to go by military aircraft?

JimG

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:39:05 AM12/22/08

to

Moses,

Well said! I think you have captured the essence of the issue without the
union bashing fingerpointing that this thread now wallows in.

American labor unions grew at a time when manufacturing jobs were plentiful
to produce a multitude of products that were in great demand. US industrial
capacity won WWII and became an industrial powerhouse replacing factories
destroyed by the conflict in Europe and Asia. US unions became strong as
world demand for products grew. A US middle class was created. But,
automation has eliminated many of those manufacturing jobs and offshore
production capacity/low labor costs now drain the rest. This thread talks
about the auto industry jobs but ignores the fact that most US manufacturing
capacity (clothing, leather, electronics, etc.) is already long gone. Even
high tech jobs are now outsourced.

The world is a smaller place in these last 50~100 years. The internet has
made it smaller.

Detroit's problems ARE caused by managements' many failures including their
capitulation to union demands but let's not quibble about the demise of,
what is in essence, the buggy whip industry. Where to now?

I didn't vote for Obama but he will be our President and his team will
direct the next four, may be eight, years. Let's all pull in the same
direction.

This thread has determinate into a union bashing

Message has been deleted

Mike Marlow

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 8:25:36 AM12/22/08

to

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:58:35 -0500, Rock Hardson cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:1x5psd1jx10hl.1...@40tude.net...
>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:22:08 -0500, Rock Hardson cast forth these pearls
>> of
>> wisdom...:
>>
>>
>>> Wow...and what do you think the union was developed for? Why were people
>>> dying and getting there heads cracked open in the 20 and 30's? Maybe so
>>> people like you or your father could actually do a job no matter how
>>> menial
>>> or mind numbing with dignity and respect without being walked over and
>>> disrepected by corporate and for that matter people like you.
>>
>> Actually, my father who was in the workforce through those formative
>> years,
>> did not need a union to protect him any more than his son did throughout
>> his career. Maybe you have a romantic notion about what the unions are.
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> mmarlo...@alltel.net
>
> I personally don't care what type of work daddy did, but the fact is the
> unions were formed by workers who needed protection in certain industries.
> If you were not part of that industry then you obviously did not need a
> union. I personally never worked in industry so I have no use for a union,
> but again the facts remain that some industries needed to be unionized.

... and to go full circle - those days are long gone. Nice to see you
catch up, even if it is by circling around the rabbit trail a little bit.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net

Jack

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 8:43:16 AM12/22/08

to

>
> In virtually all countries that provide government health care, they
> decide what doctor you go to, they decide what treatment will be done
> (unless you go to a private doctor and pay for it yourself). Even if you
> get the treatment you want, you might have wait months or years to get it,
> unless it is emergency surgery. If you are of a certain age, they will
> often not approve certain procedures because they cost too much for
> someone who doesn't have a lot of years to live (they decide what "a lot"
> means).

I'm in one of "those" countries...the gov't DOES NOT decide which doctor I
see...I have a family dr, and I see her whenever I need to.
I recently torn the hell out of my knee during sports...(I'm 53 and getting
too old for that kind of shit!!), anyways, I saw my family Dr with 2 days,
had an MRI within 2 weeks, saw an Ortho surgeon within 1 month and surgery
within 2 months. Since it was not a life -threatening injury, thats not too
bad, and acceptable.
Is the health care system here perfect ?? no...is the US one ?? absolutely
NOT. Millions do not get the care they need.

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 8:48:47 AM12/22/08

to

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

>
>>
>> Your last line in this post: if my father were putting bread on the table
>> screwing Toyotas together, why would I want to buy an American car?
>
> Learn to read english, because thats not what the last line says.

Gee. I thought it said this:

And I bet if your father was putting bread on your
table for screwing on a bolt, you would have no problem at all buying
American would you?

Could'a sworn that's what it said.

>
>>
>> Look through other posts I have made in other threads similar to this one.
>> I went and looked at an HHR. Two years ago. I am *STILL* waiting for the
>> car I asked for to show up: 171HP engine with a 5-speed. NO ONE HAS ONE!
>> It was listed as an option back in 2006.
>
>> I got fed up with waiting and bought yet another Toyota. The car I wanted
>> was sitting on the lot the second I drove in. It was the display piece.
>>
>>
>> Blame the workers? Maybe. Why should they get paid $25 an hour (~$68 with
>> benefits and pension figured in) when others do it for less?
>
> $25 and hour isnt that much in todays economy, how many people really add in
> the cost of benefits into there entire salary other than to exagerate a
> point.

$25 is a lot for people that have the skills necessary to wash dishes.
I know people that work at GM. Hey, good for them! They have a job that
pays well. Some of them even have high school diplomas.

> If I am making $100,000 per year should I say I really make $140,000
> a year with my health and other benefits? Is that the new way of now
> determining someones salary or is it just a new way to exagerate a point to
> make a point?

Benefits, Worker's Comp, Unemployment insurance and pensions cost the
employer money per employee. Most people don't figure it in the cost of a
salary. It's often calculated under Cost Of Goods Sold or some other such
accounting principle. But it is part of the compensation a worker
receives, and is figured into the cost of the car.

You don't consider your benefits part of your wage package? Must be a
union worker. They don't consider much of anything, on the whole.

And I was a union worker a couple times. Yeah, I was paid well. But I also
had highly skilled jobs that required a certain level of education,
training and experience. You want to to get on a plane that had parts
assembled by the lowest common denominator?

And I was still $6 less than the average Detroit UAW member. That is, what
I got in my paycheck. I didn't have quite as good benefits as they did,
either.

>>
>
>> Oh, and the workers for Japanese companies get rotated around the floor
>> and different lines so they don't get bored, and so they learn more. And
>> they also have the 'whistle' that will stop the entire factory when
>> defects are found.
>>
>
> And I thought all car manufacturers were now rotating around the floor.

Took them long enough...

>
>
>> Another Hammerhead post defending workers that shouldn't have jobs,
>> judging from the quality of the product they put out. If the Chinese sent
>> cars over here that were the same quality as US cars have been, you'd be
>> calling it "Cheap Chinese junk."
>>
>
> So now you are determining who should not have a job??

Yup. I spend my money where I want. I get the best I can for the dollars I
work for.

I had a Chrysler. Damn good car. It was given to me by a friend. I traded
it toward the Scion I bought instead of the HHR. One of the nicest cars I
ever owned, ran well, dependable, comfortable. It was also $30,000 in 1994.
Nice car, but no car is worth $30,000. For inflation, that car would now
be ~$40,000.

If Detroit can compete, they should. But they don't. They're too damn
arrogant to realize they don't make the best product. GM has been getting
cheaper and cheaper over the years. You know why? They want to keep the
Shareholders happy. So the customer suffers so the shareholders can have a
bigger return.

For 25 years I have been saying that keeping the shareholders happy was
not the way to do business, and if they don't start making the customers
happy, they're going to be in trouble. I even put that in a paper I wrote
about the car industry 17 years ago.

The only reson none of this happened earlier was because they were using
the financial divisions to hold up the failures of the manufacturing
divisions. Guess what? The financials collapsed, and now they're caught
with their pants down.

The bottom line? not only are the customers not happy, but the
shareholders aren't either. And they've proved it by voting with their
feet. Seen the price of GM stock lately?

So tell me, why should I buy a crummy car in order that someone should
have a job?

Welcome to the Real World.

> Where should they
> be... on welfare on your tax dollar? Another knucklehead post who crawled
> out from under a rock.

You chose to cross post this to the Nissan, Toyota and Honda groups. So
someone comes up and throws an egg at you and you go to pieces?

Next time try alt.kids.movies where it won't get pointed out what a
hammerhead you are.

Or are you just a Troll?

> And how would you know the quality of a US car, you drive a Toyota.

See above about the Chrysler. And I have also had a 2-year old Caravan,
and 2 15 year old Grand Voyagers. They were beaters (except for the
Caravan) but they ran well. Of course, all of them had the transmissions
replaced at some point in time. And one of the Voyagers had an egine
problem common to early 3.3 liter engine, sounded like it was going to
blow up any second, but it still ran.

> You are
> pissed because you couldn't find a HHR, at least that is your excuse. If the
> quality was so bad why were you looking for a HHR?? Whos posts are ignorant?

Because I was looking for something to haul band gear around in, that
looked good, and would be fun to drive if there wasn't any band equipment
anymore. And I liked the old Pie Wagons from the 50's.

The damn thing couldn't get out of it's own way with two people. I have to
admit the interior didn't look as cheap as GMs from the late 80's/early
90's, and the switches didn't feel like they were going to come off in my
hand.

But I waited 2 weeks before buying the Scion, and then 4 weeks after that
they called me and said they had a 171 HP model on the lot. Five-speed?
Nope?

Can't guy something they don't have, can I? The Scion I wanted wa right on
the corner of the lot waiting for me when I pulled in.

Message has been deleted

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 11:22:46 AM12/22/08

to

"me" <noe...@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:fmbvk4dhp8jqi3ak6...@4ax.com...
> Jack, unfortunately, you are not arguing against facts. You are
> arguing against a massive propaganda effort by the neo-cons and one of
> their best buddies, the insurance industry. They have been
> brainwashing the ignorant folks here in the USA for years with their
> stories of doom and gloom.
>
> The fact is that here in the USA the insurance companies are a totally
> unnecessary profit layer between people paying for the health
> "insurance" (really a service plan, not insurance) and the people they
> are paying. The insurance companies are smart enough to keep that
> issue from being discussed. Instead, they wave the red flag of "you
> don't want the government deciding on your health care" - when the
> alternative is an insurance company executive whose only goal is to
> maximize profit by providing the minimum amount of care and coverage.
>
> Unfortunately the neo-con machine is very sharp in their marketing aka
> brainwashing.

There is a lot of profit in the health care business, but not very much in
the insurance end. Most big companies are self-insured for health care and
that includes GM (also companies like IBM). They only pay a fee to the
insurance companies to do claims administration. There is nothing preventing
these companies from doing there own claims administration if they thought
they could do it cheaper.

If you are so convinced the problem is with insurance companies, then you
might want to invest them, because their stocks are very depressed.

PerfectReign

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 2:51:33 PM12/22/08

to

edspy...@yahoo.com turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

> Most of the people here who rant and rave about universal healthcare
> are retired. I expect a storm of flame posts

You are a completely fucked up pigfucking social commie moron who doesn't
give a rat's ass about the needs of children and those who can make it on
their own.

</flame>

Okay, feel better?

Good.

Now back to my regularly scheduled government job. :P

--
www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org

Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee
Hock

Jack

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:22:58 PM12/22/08

to

> The fact is that here in the USA the insurance companies are a totally
> unnecessary profit layer between people paying for the health
> "insurance" (really a service plan, not insurance) and the people they
> are paying. The insurance companies are smart enough to keep that
> issue from being discussed. Instead, they wave the red flag of "you
> don't want the government deciding on your health care" - when the
> alternative is an insurance company executive whose only goal is to
> maximize profit by providing the minimum amount of care and coverage.
>
> Unfortunately the neo-con machine is very sharp in their marketing aka
> brainwashing.

I'm "conservative" by nature...however the US is the only Western nation
with health care. And with the upcoming massive job losses, more folks will
not be covered by their employer's insurance. I've also had relatives in
the US tell me the nightmares that HMOs cause, i.e. some conditions not
covered etc..

Jeff Findley

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:27:20 PM12/22/08

to

"Jack" <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:494ff725$0$5469$9a56...@news.aliant.net...

I'm guessing you meant the US is the only western nation without universal
health care.

Yesterday, I just got a letter from my physician's group which said they
will not be taking our insurance after December 30, 2008. What a nice time
of year for me to find out that I have to go search for a new doctor. My
company's benefits enrollment is already "locked in" for next year, so I
can't change insurance coverage.

So yes, my insurance company is saving money by reimbursing so little that
doctors are dropping them. :-P

Jeff
--
"Many things that were acceptable in 1958 are no longer acceptable today.
My own standards have changed too." -- Freeman Dyson

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:41:43 PM12/22/08

to

"Jack" <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:494ff725$0$5469$9a56...@news.aliant.net...

> I'm "conservative" by nature...however the US is the only Western nation
> with health care. And with the upcoming massive job losses, more folks
> will not be covered by their employer's insurance. I've also had
> relatives in the US tell me the nightmares that HMOs cause, i.e. some
> conditions not covered etc..

You mean "without" healthcare? Actually, if there is a medical emergency,
one can go to a county hospital and they will treat you without insurance
and the hospital will try and collect later. They do not deny health care in
an emergency. I am not talking about elective surgery, but any kind of
serious health care problem. The taxpayers foot the bill for this if the
people cannot pay. This would not include things like reconstructive surgery
for torn ligaments, which is usually considered elective surgery. In
addition, there is Medicaid government insurance for poor people, and
Medicare for those over 65.

HMO's cover pretty much the same things that are covered in countries that
have "free healthcare". Some "treatments" are not covered, because they are
too expensive or experimental, just like in countries with free healthcare.
In the US, one reason for our high health care costs is that way too many
things are covered, such as Viagra, which even covered with government paid
health care (when I say covered, I mean highly discounted prescriptions).
Americans may not get their health care for free, but they are getting off
much more often than in other Western countries.

Those who complain about HMO's are usually given a choice of several
different health care plans, and some choose to get the cheapest ones
(HMO's) and then complain when coverage is not as good as the more expensive
plans. When I say expensive, I mean the cost to the employee, which averages
about 20% of the actual cost (this can vary from 0% to 100) and the company
they work for pays the other 80%.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:56:25 PM12/22/08

to

"Jeff Findley" <jeff.f...@ugs.nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:48ccd$494ff825$927a2cda$26...@FUSE.NET...

> I'm guessing you meant the US is the only western nation without universal
> health care.
>
> Yesterday, I just got a letter from my physician's group which said they
> will not be taking our insurance after December 30, 2008. What a nice
> time of year for me to find out that I have to go search for a new doctor.
> My company's benefits enrollment is already "locked in" for next year, so
> I can't change insurance coverage.
>
> So yes, my insurance company is saving money by reimbursing so little that
> doctors are dropping them. :-P
>
> Jeff

Wait until we get government run health care. They will pay even less than
your insurance company. Even now there are many doctors who do not accept
Medicare.

BTW, it is unlikely that your insurance company is to blame. It could be
that your doctor wants to charge more than he did last year, and/or he is
not willing to accept the same as last year. It is unusual that an insurance
plan will pay less to a provider from one year to the next. But even if that
is true, it probably would have been initiated by your company who wants to
pay less premiums.

Insurance is optional. Most big companies with lots of employees are
self-insured (they only pay a administrative fee to an insurance company to
do claims administration), but even they are trying to reduce costs, so they
may limit the amount they want to pay providers. The purpose of insurance is
to mitigate risk when you have a small pool of insured persons. Any company
can offer health care without being insured.

Regardless of whether a company is self-insured or is insured by an
insurance company for health care, the company can provide whatever level
and amount of coverage they want if they are willing to pay the insurance
company for what it will cost. The insurance business is very competitive,
and there is not much profit in it these days. I don't mean to suggest that
there is no profit, but it is not as much as one would think. The people who
are getting rich are the doctors, and most of all the ambulance chaser
lawyers who force doctors to pay about $100,000 for malpractice insurance.
That's how John Edwards made all his money.

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 3:56:41 PM12/22/08

to

On Dec 22, 3:41 pm, "Mark A" <some...@someone.com> wrote:
> "Jack" <bigcletus...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message

>
> HMO's cover pretty much the same things that are covered in countries that
> have "free healthcare".

I beginning to realize you make stuff up. You'll have to come up with
vetted comparisons before I can stop laughing at your posts. I bet
you didn't even go see "Sicko".

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:03:43 PM12/22/08

to

On Dec 22, 2:51 pm, PerfectReign <theperfectre...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> edspyhil...@yahoo.com turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:
>
> > Most of the people here who rant and rave about universal healthcare
> > are retired. I expect a storm of flame posts
>
> You are a completely fucked up pigfucking social commie moron who doesn't
> give a rat's ass about the needs of children and those who can make it on
> their own.
>

Useless comment. Has no reasons, facts, data, substance. Does that
tactic work anywhere? Maybe in shot and beer bars.

So you don't want the same health care coverage that Senators and
Congressmen have?

GILL

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:14:21 PM12/22/08

to

Mark A wrote:

>
> Regardless of whether a company is self-insured or is insured by an
> insurance company for health care, the company can provide whatever level
> and amount of coverage they want if they are willing to pay the insurance
> company for what it will cost. The insurance business is very competitive,
> and there is not much profit in it these days. I don't mean to suggest that
> there is no profit, but it is not as much as one would think. The people who
> are getting rich are the doctors, and most of all the ambulance chaser
> lawyers who force doctors to pay about $100,000 for malpractice insurance.
> That's how John Edwards made all his money.
>
>

Just a comment on auto insurance, and I may just be talking from my arse
here, my brother who worked as an adjusters manager told me that the
insurance co.'s made their big money from investing premiums into the
stock markets. Might be the next one's in line for a bail-out?

edspy...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:19:34 PM12/22/08

to

On Dec 22, 3:56 pm, "Mark A" <some...@someone.com> wrote:
> there is no profit, but it is not as much as one would think. The people who
> are getting rich are the doctors, and most of all the ambulance chaser
> lawyers who force doctors to pay about $100,000 for malpractice insurance.
> That's how John Edwards made all his money.

Republicans love and need lawyers more than any other group. Nobody
can lawyer up faster than a republican.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:20:50 PM12/22/08

to

> <edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9a279ca7-5afe-4650...@v39g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

> I beginning to realize you make stuff up. You'll have to come up with
> vetted comparisons before I can stop laughing at your posts. I bet
> you didn't even go see "Sicko".

I agree that there is a lot of profit in the health care business, but I
just don't think it is in the insurance companies (not much anyway). Anyone
can start there own non-profit insurance company as I am sure there are
enough left-wingers to fund one. But in reality, there are already many
non-profit insurance companies. Blue Cross Blue Shield used to be 100%
non-profit and provided the insurance for the majority of Americans at one
time, although some in states they have converted over to for profit
companies. Insurance companies are not the problem, although they appear to
be because they are the ones who are trying cut the cost of medical care on
behalf of those who are funding it (mainly corporate America). Also, most
large companies are self-insured, and only pay insurance companies to do
claims administration.

Medical providers (especially physicians) make much more (probably 2-3 times
as much) as those in UK, Canada, or France. That is a big part of the
problem. I once went to an IT training class and there were some people from
the UK there. One was an ex-physician who said he switched to IT because
being a doctor in the UK did not pay enough.

In 2007 the US total health care spending represented 17 percent of the
gross domestic product (GDP), which is up from 8 percent in 1980. The
percentage is expected to continue to rise. That is way more than UK, CA, or
FR, and there are so many people on the gravy train that it will be very
difficult to stop it. To make matters worse, if one did try to stop it, that
would cause massive new unemployment, so no politician wants to mess with
17% of the GDP right now with all our other problems.

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:29:24 PM12/22/08

to

Why then are nearly ALL of the rich shark lawyer Dimocrats? LOL

<edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b1e11d7-3d1a-4033...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:37:08 PM12/22/08

to

"GILL" <gil...@spamalotcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:giovvi$i0f$1...@news.motzarella.org...

> Just a comment on auto insurance, and I may just be talking from my arse
> here, my brother who worked as an adjusters manager told me that the
> insurance co.'s made their big money from investing premiums into the
> stock markets. Might be the next one's in line for a bail-out?

All insurance companies make their money on investments and unfortunately
many of them invested in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgage backed bonds
and they also issued credit default swaps.

In the insurance business, the customer pays the premium in advance, so the
insurance company can invest it. They usually just break even on the claims,
although for property and casualty insurance it is a little more volatile
(some profitable years and some losses) because of hurricanes and other
natural disasters.

That is how Warren Buffet got rich. He owns Geico and General Re (which
sells insurance to insurance companies to mediate risk). He then takes the
money and invests it.

AIG, the largest insurance company in world was already bailed out by the
Federal Reserve a few months ago to the tune of $85 billion. The reason is
that held a huge number of mortgage backed securities. But the Fed took an
79.9% equity position in the company in exchange for the $85 billion, so
they could end making a profit down the road.

Jim Higgins

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:45:28 PM12/22/08

to

On Dec 22, 12:56 pm, "edspyhil...@yahoo.com" <edspyhil...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

He never bothered to look at links as to how other governments handle
healthcare:

Sick Around the World
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

====================================================================

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

"The world health report 2007 - A safer future: global public health
security in the 21st century"

Full report download as a .pdf file:
http://www.who.int/entity/whr/2007/whr07_en.pdf (4.15MB)

====================================================================

Healthcare For All: In Western Europe Its a Reality
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91972152

France: Health Care for All
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91970968

Germany: Health Care for All
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971170

Great Britain: Health Care for All
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971293

Netherlands: Health Care for All
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91973552

Switzerland: Health Care for All
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91974014

=====================================================================

Health Care: An International Comparison
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/healthcare/healthcare_profiles.html

Netherlands' Health Care Reflects National Values
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92641635

Keeping German Doctors On A Budget Lowers Costs
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036

France At Forefront Of Free, Innovative Cancer Care
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92362918

While the U.S. Spends Heavily on Health Care, a Study Faults the
Quality
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/business/17health.html

After-Hours Doctor Calls Save Holland Money
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92606938

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 4:48:29 PM12/22/08

to

<edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b1e11d7-3d1a-4033...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

> Republicans love and need lawyers more than any other group. Nobody
> can lawyer up faster than a republican.

If you look at Congress, the percentage of Democrats who are lawyers is far
higher than Republicans.

If you look at presidential candidates since 1984, it is the same:

Reagan, Bush 1, Dole, Bush 2, McCain - none were lawyers

Modale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama - all lawyers.

You are so full of crap.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 5:07:29 PM12/22/08

to

> "Jim Higgins" <gordi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e0dd6d0d-bc54-4491-8bf5-

> He never bothered to look at links as to how other governments handle
> healthcare:

I know how they do it, and I didn't even say I am against it.

But the fact is that the quality of health care in the US is much higher
than other countries if one is willing to pay, and even for the average
corporate employee whose company foots 80-100% of the bill. But I don't
think we can afford that level of quality anymore.

But considering the number of people who get rich in the US health care
business, it will hard to change it. Getting the government to pay is not
going to help unless we drastically reduce the cost.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 5:45:56 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message
news:ufE3l.11132$dc4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>> <edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> news:00f16450-205e-4612...@r28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>> BUT, how many people have good healthcare plans? The number is
>> dwindling. In addition, very few can afford the increasing costs of
>> medical treatments without an HMO. Do you know the stats on how many
>> people use emergency rooms as their doctor? All opponents of
>> universal healthcare say taxes will increase. Well, I will lose my
>> excellent medical plan soon when I'm outsourced and layed off. To
>> provide something similar will cost me $12,000 or more a year. That
>>is going to be a stretch if I wind up making $25,000 a year in one of
>> the few service jobs still available.
>

> In virtually all countries that provide government health care, they
> decide what doctor you go to, they decide what treatment will be done
> (unless you go to a private doctor and pay for it yourself). Even if you
> get the treatment you want, you might have wait months or years to get it,
> unless it is emergency surgery. If you are of a certain age, they will
> often not approve certain procedures because they cost too much for
> someone who doesn't have a lot of years to live (they decide what "a lot"
> means).

I don't know what countries you are talking about, but here in Canada, I can
choose whatever Doctor I want, I and my Doctor decide what treatment I get,
and the waiting times are much less then most people think they are. As for
you comment about age, that is pure bull shit.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 6:00:17 PM12/22/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message
news:zPadnayjd4M6hc3U...@giganews.com...

> I don't know what countries you are talking about, but here in Canada, I
> can choose whatever Doctor I want, I and my Doctor decide what treatment I
> get, and the waiting times are much less then most people think they are.
> As for you comment about age, that is pure bull shit.

I can't speak about CA but in most European countries if a patient has a
serious disease and are over a certain age, they might not spend as much
money treating you as if you were younger (depending on what the treatment
costs are).

You cannot go to "any" doctor and get free care, you can only go to doctors
who are paid by the national health care plan. That is like an HMO and why
people in the US complain about it. A lot of Canadians come to the US and
pay for healthcare out of their own pocket, to get the treatment they want.

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 6:05:34 PM12/22/08

to

Besides the shark lawyers, one of the primary reason healthcare costs are so
high in the US is BECAUSE of the government! It SETS the Medicare
reimbursement rates very high. Any doctor or hospital that accepts
Medicare patients MUST charge the SET Medicare reimbursement rates TO
EVERYBODY or they can be charged with Medicare fraud!

The reason the government sets the rates high is to pay the doctors and
hospital to provide the so called FREE care to the indigent under the US
Hill Burton Act. The government IS the cause NOT the cure.

Our local volunteer ambulance corps was shut down by the feds for Medicare
fraud. The feds took all of their money and sold all of their equipment
and were ready to put the VOLUNTEER leaders in jail, untill a US Senator
stepped in and stopped the lunacy. The problem was the Medicare
reimbursement rate to the hospital, three miles out of town, was $750 but
the corps only charged the VOLUNTEER fireman's insurance company $250!

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:L5U3l.11491$dc4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 6:23:18 PM12/22/08

to

Really? I had an angina attack and went to the local hospital. The ER
doctor their told me I needed to be seen by a cardiologist at once. Ten
minutes later he was there. He sent me by helicopter to one to the best
cardiology hospital in the world, just 50 miles away. When I arrived they
gave me a test and told me I needed heart bypasses surgery. Only seven
hours after my attack I was in the recovery room.

My friend was hunting in Canada and suffered a hart attack. He was taken
by ambulance on a five hour ride to a hospital. Thee DAYS later he was
seen by a cardiologist, who told him he needed heart bypass surgery. The
cardiologist told him they would put him on a monitor to watch him untill
they could do the surgery in THREE to FOUR weeks.

He engaged an air ambulance to take him the St Luke's in Milwaukie and was
operated on the next
day.

Any America that thinks we should have government healthcare was never in
the US military and if they were, they certainly were never in a VA hospital

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message
news:zPadnayjd4M6hc3U...@giganews.com...

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 6:42:17 PM12/22/08

to

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:41:56 -0500, Rock Hardson wrote:

> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121903856.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR
>
> The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered to
> join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker but
> they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID can
> people be! If they had simply joined the union they would be getting the
> same exact pay and benefits as the northern worker living a higher standard
> of life and there would have been an even playing field for all manufactures
> from the start. For years it has been said that the Japanese choose the
> southern worker simply to take advantage of there ignorance. I guess the
> article proves they were right about that one. Now the northern worker will
> be forced to be dragged down to the level of pay of the southern worker. Its
> a simple question of is everyone on board to make a lot of money or will a
> segment of the community just drag others down to make a lesser amount of
> money???

I had a good job with a *BIG* corporation (at the time #3 in the Fortune
500). It became very apparent there was going to be a layoff.

I was *NOT* a good union member. We were coming up to contract
negotiations, and there was word of a strike. Screw that. I was reading
the WSJ every day and aircraft orders were waning.

A real union dog came up and asked me what I was going to do. Cross the
line, of course! Nobody in the friggin' union signs my paycheck.

So I asked him, if it comes down to you getting $0.25 an hour more (we
were making $17 and hour in 1991, full medical, dental, pension, etc) and
watching 5 people walk out the door, what would you say?

"Gimme the quarter".

I would have taken a cut in pay, even back to $12~14 an hour. In a bad
economy, a good job at lower pay is better than *NO* job at all.

They got the quarter. We got the axe. The one good thing out of it all
was, even though the other guy had been with the company longer, he went
out the door before me.

Stupid union dogs.

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 6:49:43 PM12/22/08

to

If your company went belly up over $10 a week per employee, they were going
to go under no matter what the Union did. LOL

"Hachiroku ????" <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.12.22....@e86.GTS...

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 7:14:39 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:fTU3l.11518$dc4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...

> "80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message
> news:zPadnayjd4M6hc3U...@giganews.com...
>> I don't know what countries you are talking about, but here in Canada, I
>> can choose whatever Doctor I want, I and my Doctor decide what treatment
>> I get, and the waiting times are much less then most people think they
>> are. As for you comment about age, that is pure bull shit.
>
> I can't speak about CA but in most European countries if a patient has a
> serious disease and are over a certain age, they might not spend as much
> money treating you as if you were younger (depending on what the treatment
> costs are).

Depends on the country. Some are pretty bad, some very good.

> You cannot go to "any" doctor and get free care, you can only go to
> doctors who are paid by the national health care plan.

I assume you are still speaking about European countries. As I said, in
Canada, we can choose whomever we want as our Doctor.

> That is like an HMO and why people in the US complain about it.
> A lot of Canadians come to the US and pay for healthcare out of their own
> pocket, to get the treatment they want.

Actually, the reason some Canadian's go to the US to get treatment, is it is
sometimes quicker. In the US, money gives you priority over illness.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 7:19:21 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:RAD3l.11119$dc4....@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> If everyone was forced to buy American cars (or did so voluntarily) the
> price would increase because they would have no (or little) competition
> and the quality would start to fall off dramatically.

Why does no one seem to think this can work the other way around too? If
all Domestic automakers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) were to go under, the Japanese
companies (with no real competition) could pay there employees whatever
slave-wage they wanted, price there cars at whatever (even more) bloated
price they wanted, and wouldn't give two shits about quality, because there
isn't competition. How would that help anyone?

labatyd

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 7:25:12 PM12/22/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message

news:zOOdnU1TpbPssM3U...@giganews.com...

Ya Canada it's free but you stand a good chance of dying waiting in line.
There's always a catch isn't there?

>
>

labatyd

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 7:27:53 PM12/22/08

to

<edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9da6b670-acbf-4684...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

Apples and Oranges

Hachiroku ハチロク

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 9:39:52 PM12/22/08

to

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:49:43 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:

> If your company went belly up over $10 a week per employee, they were going
> to go under no matter what the Union did. LOL

It was aircraft parts manufacturing. Clinton cut the military budget, so
that business went away, and thanks to the taxes Congress levied the
airline business went away...

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 9:45:53 PM12/22/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message

news:zOOdnU1TpbPssM3U...@giganews.com...

> I assume you are still speaking about European countries. As I said, in
> Canada, we can choose whomever we want as our Doctor.

No, you can only choose a doctor who is part of the Canadian government
health care plan.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 9:49:20 PM12/22/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message

news:yoGdnZpl_IYWs83U...@giganews.com...

> Why does no one seem to think this can work the other way around too? If
> all Domestic automakers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) were to go under, the
> Japanese companies (with no real competition) could pay there employees
> whatever slave-wage they wanted, price there cars at whatever (even more)
> bloated price they wanted, and wouldn't give two shits about quality,
> because there isn't competition. How would that help anyone?

I don't think anyone thinks that. But having The US taxpayer throw money
into the bottomless pit called the US auto industry is not something that
benefits anyone but those who work in the auto industry, or those who live
in a city that where there are a lot of auto industry employees.

It would great if Intel had more competition, but I don't think the US
government should bailout AMD.

Jack

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 10:16:22 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:4eY3l.11278$M01....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

All the doctors (other than some specialists) are part of the Medicare plan.
They have billing numbers which they submit to the gov't to get paid, like a
contractor would do.

It works..is it perfect ? No..but NO ONE gets left behind..everyone has
"chevy" coverage, not cadillac coverage, and it seems to work reasonable
well.

Mark A

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 10:38:37 PM12/22/08

to

"Jack" <bigcle...@yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:49505809$0$5470$9a56...@news.aliant.net...

> All the doctors (other than some specialists) are part of the Medicare
> plan. They have billing numbers which they submit to the gov't to get
> paid, like a contractor would do.
>
> It works..is it perfect ? No..but NO ONE gets left behind..everyone has
> "chevy" coverage, not cadillac coverage, and it seems to work reasonable
> well.

Jack, I agree with you. It does work. But the point is that those Americans
who have HMO's (which are very similar to the kind of coverage and care you
get in Canada and EU) constantly complain about it, because they were
spoiled with their traditional health care plans (that cost a lot more).

Chief among those who complain are the UAW who will not accept such a plan.
If they did, then GM, Ford, and Chrysler might have a chance to survive.
Don't count on it. The unions will take at least 2 of the 3 into the grave
just like they did Eastern Airlines.

Jack

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 11:10:36 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:w%Y3l.11298$M01....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Our biggest problem "up here" is the misuse of Emergency departments...some
people go there for routine medical issues, i.e. the flu, bad colds, twisted
ankle etc..tying up valuable resources from "real" medical problems.
Another problem, not unlike the US, we are getting older as a population and
with that comes more medical problems...there's a shortage of doctors..and
the med schools can't generate them fast enough. There is no easy answer,
both south and north of the border.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 11:44:24 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:4eY3l.11278$M01....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Which are all but a few specialists, and most times, they are covered too.
You may know the US health care system, but you don't know the Canadian.

80 Knight

unread,

Dec 22, 2008, 11:46:54 PM12/22/08

to

"Mark A" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message

news:jhY3l.11280$M01....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

So, what would happen if GM, Ford, and Chrysler went under, and WWIII
started? Sure, Japan are our "friends" now, but what would happen if they
were on the opposite side of the US? Do you think they would supply us with
the tools and equipment we would need to kick there own asses? "Those who
fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it...Those who fail to learn it
correctly, why they are simply doomed".

Mark A

unread,

Dec 23, 2008, 1:07:58 AM12/23/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message

news:M_Odnfk1WfPd8M3U...@giganews.com...

> So, what would happen if GM, Ford, and Chrysler went under, and WWIII
> started? Sure, Japan are our "friends" now, but what would happen if they
> were on the opposite side of the US? Do you think they would supply us
> with the tools and equipment we would need to kick there own asses?
> "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it...Those who fail
> to learn it correctly, why they are simply doomed".

Making cars is not rocket science. Anyway, the foreign car companies have
plants in the US, and if Japan every was at war with the US (probably the
least likely country besides UK to be at war with US), then we can take
their plants over.

If we are at war with Japan, we are not going to kick their asses with cars.

Andrew Chaplin

unread,

Dec 23, 2008, 9:45:37 AM12/23/08

to

"80 Knight" <nospam> wrote in message

news:zradneemvMY38c3U...@giganews.com...

One needs to start with the basic fact that health is a provincial
responsibility under Section 92 (the distribution of powers section) of the
Constitution Act, 1867, and know that it gets more complicated as the Act
effectively divides the "Canadian health care system" among 10 provinces,
three territories, umpteen aboriginal peoples and the armed forces.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

HLS

unread,

Dec 23, 2008, 10:28:18 AM12/23/08

to

"Rock Hardson" <RH...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:494d1243$0$1509$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/19/AR2008121903856.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR
>
> The article states that the southern japanese factory worker was offered
> to join the union bringing wages on par to its northern American worker
> but they opted to stay bare foot and po' for japanese pennies. How STUPID
> can people be!

******Pretty stupid, for you to make a comment like that.

Southerners are no more stupid or uneducated than Northerners.

Because of traditional factors, including the obvious weather, it can
be a lot more expensive to live in some areas of the North. The cost
of living is traditionally lower in many areas of the South.

I guess you need no more to join a union than your dues and the
ability to sign your name.

Gordon McGrew

unread,

Dec 23, 2008, 8:17:19 PM12/23/08

to

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:05:34 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

>Besides the shark lawyers, one of the primary reason healthcare costs are so
>high in the US is BECAUSE of the government! It SETS the Medicare
>reimbursement rates very high. Any doctor or hospital that accepts
>Medicare patients MUST charge the SET Medicare reimbursement rates TO
>EVERYBODY or they can be charged with Medicare fraud!
>
>The reason the government sets the rates high is to pay the doctors and
>hospital to provide the so called FREE care to the indigent under the US
>Hill Burton Act. The government IS the cause NOT the cure.
>
>Our local volunteer ambulance corps was shut down by the feds for Medicare
>fraud. The feds took all of their money and sold all of their equipment
>and were ready to put the VOLUNTEER leaders in jail, untill a US Senator
>stepped in and stopped the lunacy. The problem was the Medicare
>reimbursement rate to the hospital, three miles out of town, was $750 but
>the corps only charged the VOLUNTEER fireman's insurance company $250!

Sounds like BS to me (so surprising coming from Mike.)

Hospitals and doctors routinely charge much higher fees to uninsured
than to insured patients. So is the discount to the insurance company
Medicare fraud? Or are uninsured patients being charged much more
than the "very high" Medicare rates?

Mike Hunter

unread,

Dec 23, 2008, 8:36:19 PM12/23/08

to

No and yes ;)

Everything I posted is factual and can be verified if you do a proper
search. I could not care less what you choose to believe or not

"Gordon McGrew" <gRmEcM...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:j533l4hi28b4fubhl...@4ax.com...

ranto...@mail.com

unread,

Dec 24, 2008, 12:36:38 AM12/24/08

to

Mike Hunter wrote:
>:

>Besides the shark lawyers, one of the primary reason healthcare costs are so
>high in the US is BECAUSE of the government! It SETS the Medicare
>reimbursement rates very high. Any doctor or hospital that accepts
>Medicare patients MUST charge the SET Medicare reimbursement rates TO
>EVERYBODY or they can be charged with Medicare fraud!
>

You could be correct if the year was still 1968, but Medicare has
operated under cost controls since the mid-1970s, and currently no
health payment system, public or private, sets lower reimbursements
for hospitals and doctors than Medicare, except possibly some Medicaid
programs or Tricare.

Gordon McGrew

unread,

Dec 24, 2008, 9:21:02 AM12/24/08

to

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:36:19 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

>No and yes ;)
>
>Everything I posted is factual and can be verified if you do a proper
>search.

A proper search would include dates and locations - details you did
not provide. This is just your trademark "do your own research"
horseshit. This story is just another Mike Hunter lie until you back
it up.

> I could not care less what you choose to believe or not

I choose not.

Gordon McGrew

unread,

Dec 24, 2008, 9:28:52 AM12/24/08

to

Good point. One proposal is to open Medicare to anyone willing to pay
the premium. This would drive the private insurance companies out of
business overnight.

BTW, Mike, how was your coronary bypass paid for? You didn't rely any
nasty government programs did you? Given your age and what little we
know about your medical history, I would guess that private health
insurance is costing you at least $5,000 per month if you can get it
at all.