Fuel Induction Service

[tww1491]

It appears the dealer I use has decided that Fuel Induction service is
absolutely necessary in my 06 Accord (103k miles) and our 09 CRV (71k miles)
The response to my question -- how do you determine that -- was mileage and
age of the vehicle. In fact the inspection report includes a picture of
crudded up intake valve as proof and the explanation that ethanol is a key
factor in this occurring. Both vehicles are still running smoothly and
getting the gas mileage they have since bought new. In Googling this
service, I find the results seem to indicate it really is not necessary in
most cases -- just a dealer cash cow. Does anyone have any pro/con on this
issue.

[Geoff Welsh]

Pros: Taking a shower before you smell is good
Cons: It costs money

I use to work at a shop with a Motovac FI cleaning machine. We used it
on cars that ran like crap, along with replacing cap/rotor/wires (if
equipped), spark plugs, air filter, and fuel filter, on cars with no
history of ANY preventative maintenance (black air filter, etc) before
attempting further diagnosis. We did this only with customer approval,
(after recommending just getting a new car that wasn't a giant POS).

Using it on a car that runs fine, gets proper gas mileage, has had all
manufacturer recommended maintenance, and is not setting any "lean
condition" codes in PCM memory seems unnecessary to me. (as I sit here
at a computer not seeing the actual cars).

GW

[NotMe]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:hsxkt.8020$EN2....@newsfe15.iad...

The reference to the intake valve being curded suggest that a road trip with
sustained interstate highway speeds would do wonders.

Basically if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[jim beam]

dealer cash cow. ignore.

if you really want to "do something", just buy a bottle of fuel injector
cleaner at your local supermarket and use that - will have the same effect.

there is however something to be said for buying decent quality
gasoline. it generally has both a better detergent package, and less
crud in the first place. that'll keep your valves cleaner. and as
another poster said, a sustained freeway run will do it a power of good too.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 05/14/2013 05:10 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <hsxkt.8020$EN2....@newsfe15.iad>,

> "tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> It appears the dealer I use has decided that Fuel Induction service is
>> absolutely necessary
>

> what the fuck is THAT?
>

"injection" typo i'm supposing.

o.t., and to the point about gasoline quality you often make, i had an
interesting experience recently. made a road trip, one i've made many
times before, with some sustained grades on it. i know the route, know
the best gas stations and know how the car performs along it. but this
time, i deviated a little and filled up with chevron before the longest
grade, which i don't normally do. omfg, what utter garbage. whenever
i've used chevron before, for normal driving, it's ok, with maybe the
gas mileage being a little low. but put on this occasion on this long
steep grade and the need for full power - it simply wouldn't pull. the
car normally cruises up a particular grade at 75 without flooring it
provided you get a decent run at it and provided you don't let the revs
drop below 3500. this time, i was pressing a dent in the boards, and
she just wouldn't go faster than 55. further into the route with
another sustained grade and back to my usual shell brand, the car was
back to normal and pulling like a champ.

maybe this was a one-off bad tank, but it was a dramatic difference. i
can't say i'm buying chevron any time again soon - supposed engine
cleaning ingredients or not.


--
fact check required

[Tegger]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in
news:hsxkt.8020$EN2....@newsfe15.iad:

> It appears the dealer I use has decided that Fuel Induction service

Fuel INJECTION Service. Nobody induces fuel in his engine.

> is absolutely necessary in my 06 Accord (103k miles) and our 09 CRV
> (71k miles) The response to my question -- how do you determine that
> -- was mileage and age of the vehicle.

That's meaningless.

> In fact the inspection report includes a picture of crudded up intake
> valve as proof

ALL intake valves get crud on them. That's why gasoline has detergents, to
control the amount of crud.

> and the explanation that ethanol is a key factor in this occurring.

That's wrong. Intake deposits have been occurring since forever. In
fact, they were worse back when detergent levels were lower.

> Both vehicles are still running smoothly and getting the gas mileage
> they have since bought new.

Do you have a smog check in your area? If so, what are the cars'
numbers? If intake deposits are great enough to cause problems,
emissions will be the first to be affected.

Since both of your vehicles have OBD-II, serious emissions issues would
be flagged by the Check Engine light. I'm guessing yours is OFF.

How's your fuel trim (long and short)? That's a tell-tale for developing
problems.

> In Googling this service, I find the results seem to indicate it
> really is not necessary in most cases -- just a dealer cash cow. Does
> anyone have any pro/con on this issue.
>

Pro: Puts money in the dealer's wallet.
Con: Removes money from your wallet.

If the engine runs as it always has, gets the same mileage as it
always has, and emissions are normal, then the injection service is
unnecessary.


--
Tegger

[tww1491]

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message
news:elmop-FFA1F2.20103214052013@[78.46.70.116]...

In article <hsxkt.8020$EN2....@newsfe15.iad>,
"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote:

> It appears the dealer I use has decided that Fuel Induction service is
> absolutely necessary

what the fuck is THAT?

That's what they call it -- a fancy name for an old service I would guess.

[tww1491]

"Tegger" wrote in message news:XnsA1C127C5...@208.90.168.18...

That's my take here. BTW -- they label it Fuel/Air Induction service or
Fuel Induction service. The service advisor I dealt with this time was
positively insistent about doing and even called the mechanic out to "talk"
to me. This is a new approach by a dealer I have found to be pleasant to
deal with in the past and quite above board. We don't have smog checks in
this area.

--
Tegger

[tww1491]

"jim beam" wrote in message news:kmukh2$han$5...@dont-email.me...

I buy Shell as it seems to work the best. This "requirement" is a new
approach by a dealer I have found quite satisfactory in the past. Seems
like things are changing. Appreciate the comments -- validate what I have
been thinking all along.


--
fact check required

[Tegger]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in
news:07Lkt.1270$mY6...@newsfe13.iad:

Your replies are really confusing to read. Can't you separate your reply
from the part you're quoting?

If your Windows Live Mail is too dumb to know to put ">" characters in
front of the quoted part, you can always add a line of dashes to separate
new from quoted, as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
tww1491's reply:

<your reply would be typed here>

--
Tegger

[Tegger]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in
news:icLkt.25879$KS1....@newsfe05.iad:

>
> That's my take here. BTW -- they label it Fuel/Air Induction service
> or Fuel Induction service.

They must be using "Induction" as a synonym for "Intake". It's a silly
term.



--
Tegger

[jim beam]

that kind of "hard sell" is bullshit - and they know it. i'd seriously
consider:

1. calling honda usa [not the dealer] and telling them you're unhappy
and that it affects your willingness to consider future honda purchases.
you'll almost certainly get a fawning apology next time you go in.

2. simply not going there any more. chances are, there is a decent
honda-trained independent in your area - you just need to find them.
dealer service is *not* mandatory to maintain warranties - by law.


--
fact check required

[tww1491]

"Tegger" wrote in message news:XnsA1C15CD6...@208.90.168.18...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Mail is the problem .. thanks and sorry for the confusion. Appreciate
input.

--
Tegger

[Tegger]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in news:q9Nkt.461$lt3...@newsfe12.iad:

Live Mail is the problem .. thanks and sorry for the confusion.
Appreciate input.

----------------------------------------------------
Tegger's reply:

You need to include the text AND dashed line as above, which indicates that
it is your reply that follows. The dashed line alone isn't enough.

I have formatted my reply to illustrate what I'm trying to say.




--
Tegger

[jim beam]

dealer's kid probably just got back home from business school and is
trying to justify the expense by "helping" pops make an extra buck today
at the expense of lost business tomorrow. pops will figure it out soon
enough, but in the mean time, best to stay out of junior's "learning curve".

[NotMe]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in message

news:yeLkt.11485$iS....@newsfe27.iad...

Can't supply a 'fact' for you to check but I've been working on engines for
over 50 years. My dad and I rebuilt WWI aircraft and moved to WWII
aircraft. Much of what I know I learned from him. Might mention that a
*lot* of that has not been written down anywhere. I have however passed the
information to my kids and they have made good livings by treating their
customers honestly without the need to resort to creative service and
maintance fees.

[JRStern]

On Tue, 14 May 2013 17:50:00 -0700, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>maybe this was a one-off bad tank, but it was a dramatic difference. i
>can't say i'm buying chevron any time again soon - supposed engine
>cleaning ingredients or not.

I always thought Chevron was the good stuff, and my previous Hondas
have loved it. Not entirely sure about this new one.

What gas do you like better?

J.

[JRStern]

On Wed, 15 May 2013 08:29:02 -0400, "tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote:

>That's my take here. BTW -- they label it Fuel/Air Induction service or
>Fuel Induction service. The service advisor I dealt with this time was
>positively insistent about doing and even called the mechanic out to "talk"
>to me. This is a new approach by a dealer I have found to be pleasant to
>deal with in the past and quite above board. We don't have smog checks in
>this area.

Well, what do they DO?

If it's *injector* service, then it has little to do with the valves.

And I've never found injector service necessary, just a dealer add-on,
and how do you know they did anything at all other than add however
much to your bill?

J.

[tww1491]

"JRStern" wrote in message
news:9mm8p8tebfucoh4c3...@4ax.com...

--------------------------------------------------------
Reply:
As described by the dealers inspection report: " Utilizing specialized
tools, our skilled technicians will clean fuel injectors, clean the throttle
body, clean the plenum and air-intake, clean intake valves and ports, remove
combustion chamber deposits and correct the balance of fuel and air in the
system." The claim the service must be performed every 15,000 miles. Cost
$129.95. This ought to warm Jim Beam's heart!

TWW

[jim beam]

i generally use shell - mainly because it's my closest to home. i've
never had that kind of power problem with it. and i love the fact that
if you do engine work, valves and pistons are very clean. some cars run
on cheap crap are crudded up badly, and just like the advertisements
show, intake valves are caked in crud. that may also be true with other
brands, but this is my experience.

--
fact check required

[jim beam]

translation: "we spray a $3 can of cleaner into the throttle body. maybe."

> The claim the service must be performed
> every 15,000 miles. Cost $129.95. This ought to warm Jim Beam's heart!
>
> TWW

--
fact check required

[Tegger]

"tww1491" <twa...@cox.net> wrote in
news:ig3lt.584$q83...@newsfe26.iad:

> As described by the dealers inspection report: " Utilizing specialized
> tools, our skilled technicians will clean fuel injectors, clean the
> throttle body, clean the plenum and air-intake, clean intake valves
> and ports, remove combustion chamber deposits and correct the balance
> of fuel and air in the system." The claim the service must be
> performed every 15,000 miles.

Oh, come on. This sounds like your typical dealer profit-building bumpf.

The "plenum and air intake" NEVER need attention. NEVER NEVER NEVER!.

The intake valves and ports, plus any combustion chamber deposits, will get
cleaned when the injectors are cleaned. From that description, they're
probably doing a Motorvac. Motorvac isn't bad, just not often necessary.

If the air/fuel balance was off by enough to matter, your Check Engine
light would be on by now. Or your fuel-trim numbers would be way off
normal.

Now, the throttle-body clean IS actually a pretty good idea, but that takes
about 15 minutes once the car is in the bay. See what they'd charge for
that alone. If it's more than $50, skip it for now.


--
Tegger

[tww1491]

"Tegger" wrote in message news:XnsA1C2CEEE...@208.90.168.18...

-------------------------------------------------------
Reply:
This is a colorful pamphlet that they use to convince customers that they
are neglecting their maintenance. Interestingly the same "inspection"
failed me for wiper blades that needed replacement -- which they had done
just 4 months before. Rot has set in.

TWW

[jim beam]

ok, when responding to a post, don't write below someone's sig. for
both email and usenet, a reader app looks for a line with two hyphens,
two spaces and a carriage return in a row. when it sees them, it
ignores anything below and won't quote on any response. to get your
response quoted above, i had to copy and paste or i'd simply have
tegger's response and writing to you would make no sense.

the best way to read usenet is to use a specific usenet application, and
point it at a proper usenet server. there are a multitude of apps for
all o/s platforms, and there are free servers if your isp does not
already provide. others will recommend i'm sure.


re your car, to "inspect" prior to determining whether this operation is
actually appropriate or not, they would need to borescope [if they
wanted to be less invasive] or they'd need to remove the intake
manifold. since you already know they're not doing either, that tells
you all you need to know about their sales ethic here.


--
fact check required

[~misfit~]

The term's been in use for years; Induction and exhaust, the two manifolds.
You never heard the term 'induction noise' for an engine that's run without
an air filter?

Perhaps it's a regional thing?
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
[Sent from my OrbitalT ocular implant interface.]