Need some help once again
ricky...@gmail.com
trust you guys well, because you've always been right in the past.
anyways, ran a compression test a few months back. all were at about
180 except for #3, which was 130. A few weeks ago, I took the engine
out, replaced that pistons rings ( even tho I shoulda done all of
them, but couldn't afford it) along with the oil pan gasket, head
gasket, valve cover gasket, all my belts, and a few motor mounts. put
it all back together and it runs like a champ...around town. when i
went out of town the other day, i got about 2 hours down the road and
had to put a quart of oil in the car. also there was a hazy oil
smudge all over my bumper and the back of the trunk. ran another
compression test today and they all checked about between 180 and
165. is this the exhaust valve? seals?
basically i guess i need to figure out what the problem is and decide
whether i need to replace the culprit, get a reman. head, get a jdm
engine, or just sell the car for what its worth. all those parts that
were replaced were OEM courtesy of hondaautomotiveparts.com!
thanks,
Ricky
93 civic lx 1.5
208k miles
jim beam
just the rings on #3??? that's highly irregular. what is the
compression on that cylinder now?
and did you deglaze the cylinder before re-fitting the piston? if so,
how did you clean up afterward? also, how did you clean the head/block
before reassembly?
excess oil consumption is typical if rings don't seat or wear
excessively. if you didn't deglaze, the new rings won't seat, or if
they do, only /VERY/ slowly. and it'll suck oil.
otoh, if you used abrasives in cleanup and/or deglazing, you could have
wear problems already. after deglazing, you MUST clean up very
thoroughly because abrasive remains embedded in the metal surface. you
need to scrub the walls thoroughly with a wooden bristled brush and lots
of soapy water to do a good job of clean-up. if you used abrasives on
the head/block, same problem, only it's now stuck in the cylinder/piston
gap.
bottom line, rebuilds, unless undertaken by an anally obsessive freak
that charges a fortune, or you are an anally obsessive freak, are
usually doomed to premature death. much better use of time to buy a
cheapo jdm motor and enjoy a nearly new lease of life.
[beware some jdm - there's a bunch of d15b1's out there. low power due
to a low-lift econo-cam.]
ricky...@gmail.com
extra 70 for the rest of them at the time. The compression on that
cylinder was around 165. The others ranged between 175 and 180.
I did the work with my girlfriend's dad, who is very particular with
the work. We did deglaze the the cylinder, measured all the rings up
with a feeler gauge, cleaned the piston with a broken old ring, etc.
as far as the head, just used light pressure with a scrape and then
cleaned it up with some sandpaper and wiped it off with a rag. taped
off all the coolant and oil ducts with painters tape to make sure
nothing fell in.
being that i only burn oil on the highway, 3k+ rpms, it just makes me
think that the exhaust valve gets stuck open or something. i have
been looking around for another d15b7 engine, but it seems like that
might be a bit of a challenge..
the only reason i am concerned is because i travel a lot and oil is
definitely not cheap right now haha
jim beam
> Yea just on #3. On a college budget, so I really couldn't swallow the
> extra 70 for the rest of them at the time. The compression on that
> cylinder was around 165. The others ranged between 175 and 180.
>
> I did the work with my girlfriend's dad, who is very particular with
> the work. We did deglaze the the cylinder, measured all the rings up
> with a feeler gauge, cleaned the piston with a broken old ring, etc.
> as far as the head, just used light pressure with a scrape and then
> cleaned it up with some sandpaper and wiped it off with a rag.
next time, use a scraper and solvent only. i've seen this stuff under
the microscope - it's almost impossible to /not/ get abrasive into the
critical parts of the engine if you use abrasives.
> taped
> off all the coolant and oil ducts with painters tape to make sure
> nothing fell in.
paradoxically, the coolant channels are probably the least critical.
>
> being that i only burn oil on the highway, 3k+ rpms, it just makes me
> think that the exhaust valve gets stuck open or something.
doesn't burn oil.
> i have
> been looking around for another d15b7 engine, but it seems like that
> might be a bit of a challenge..
d15b2's do the same job and are readily available.
>
> the only reason i am concerned is because i travel a lot and oil is
> definitely not cheap right now haha
fixing it properly is the right thing to do. technically, you can
repair that motor, but in reality, it's not worth it when you can buy
jdm so easily and so cheap.
depending on state, you could even get [and legally smog] a single cam
zc motor for <$500. those things ROCK. if you're in california,
unfortunately, they're not street legal.
ricky...@gmail.com
>
> depending on state, you could even get [and legally smog] a single cam
> zc motor for <$500. those things ROCK. if you're in california,
> unfortunately, they're not street legal.
well..im pretty sure down here in the sunshine state they have never
asked for emissions test. whats the full engine code on that?
thanks for all your input
Ricky
jim beam
there are other sources, but this is the one i have in mind.
basically the same as the d16a6, but with a more aggressive cam. its
code is "zc", and that's it.
i can vouch for the cam because i have one in my crx - lotsa lotsa fun!!!
ricky...@gmail.com
i'm unfamiliar with how the whole liter thing works...any special
things that would need to be done for this to be swapped in or is it
just a straight bolt on exchange...besides the belts, hoses, sensors,
etc..?
jim beam
afaik, it's bolt in - why i mentioned it. seen many such transplants in
junkyards. belts and all accessories are standard d16. oil cooler is
like the prelude, but you shouldn't need to mess with that. get an
exhaust from your generation of ex for best results. otherwise, works
great stock. junkyards are your friend. use quality oil 'cos this
motor revs high and hard and pulls best up at the top end.
ricky...@gmail.com
>
> afaik, it's bolt in - why i mentioned it. seen many such transplants in
> junkyards. belts and all accessories are standard d16. oil cooler is
> like the prelude, but you shouldn't need to mess with that. get an
> exhaust from your generation of ex for best results. otherwise, works
> great stock. junkyards are your friend. use quality oil 'cos this
> motor revs high and hard and pulls best up at the top end.
speaking of the devil, i was just there today. very cool, thanks for
the find. your're a rockstar
ricky...@gmail.com
sure if all the zc's are 5 spd) and do they have a space for the air
conditioner? possibly idiotic questions, but you never know
jim beam
yes, i've seen them bolted up to auto transmissions. [all the zc's are
5-speed - they have their own beefed-up transmission if you can find
one. you might need hybrid driveshafts because i believe the inner
joints are larger like integra.] i believe a/c still fits - it's a d16
block, but i've not seen that.
Tegger
news:97WdnRinOvsPBrnX...@speakeasy.net:
> ricky...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Yea just on #3. On a college budget, so I really couldn't swallow the
>> extra 70 for the rest of them at the time. The compression on that
>> cylinder was around 165. The others ranged between 175 and 180.
>>
>> I did the work with my girlfriend's dad, who is very particular with
>> the work. We did deglaze the the cylinder, measured all the rings up
>> with a feeler gauge, cleaned the piston with a broken old ring, etc.
>> as far as the head, just used light pressure with a scrape and then
>> cleaned it up with some sandpaper and wiped it off with a rag.
>
> next time, use a scraper and solvent only. i've seen this stuff under
> the microscope - it's almost impossible to /not/ get abrasive into the
> critical parts of the engine if you use abrasives.
Oh this is BAD BAD BAD. My mechanic (who has rebuilt countless engines and
replaced countless head gaskets) SPECIFICALLY says ***NEVER*** under ANY
circumstances to use ANY sort of abrasive to remove head gasket remains.
It is, as you say, impossible to keep the "sand" particles out of the
cylinders, and the result will be very rapid wear and very high oil
consumption very quickly.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
ricky...@gmail.com
that the compression wasn't bad and i only burn oil at high rpm's on
the highway..i can only think that the exhaust valve may be getting
stuck open or the seal may be leaking. called around today and i can
get a head from a local junkyard for $75 and i could send it off to a
place that the honda dealership recommended for a complete rebuild for
$250.
I kept digging to find another d15b7 engine, but couldn't find one
without going to a vtech and having to change my exhaust & intake
manifolds..
thoughts on this?
Tegger
@c9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> i've come up with a slightly expensive, but temporary solution. being
> that the compression wasn't bad and i only burn oil at high rpm's on
> the highway..i can only think that the exhaust valve may be getting
> stuck open
That would have nothing to do with oil consumption. If a valve was stuck
open (or burnt) you'd get pretty much zero compression in that cylinder.
> or the seal may be leaking. called around today and i can
> get a head from a local junkyard for $75 and i could send it off to a
> place that the honda dealership recommended for a complete rebuild for
> $250.
>
Not likely to do much for your oil consumption.
I think your problem is in the block, not the head. Are you quite certain
you installed the new rings the correct way around? Installing them upside
down will do very bad things for oil consumption (they are NOT flat). Did
you rotate the rings so the gaps are properly away from each other, and did
you check the ring end gaps to make sure they were correct? Are you certain
the bore was not worn oval? Are you certain the pistons' ring groove
clearances are not excessive?
> I kept digging to find another d15b7 engine, but couldn't find one
> without going to a vtech and having to change my exhaust & intake
> manifolds..
>
> thoughts on this?
A VTEC engine will still function well with the VTEC disconnected. You'll
just lose the "high rev" cam lobes, that's all.
ricky...@gmail.com
it was not on the compression side of the piston or whatever the
manual called it. we checked every ring by pushing inside the chamber
with the piston and using a feeler gauge. all were well within the
new limits. it's just completely throwing me off that it only occurs
on the highway. i think a may do a leak down test either tomorrow or
friday to see if i can pin point it further.
I would definitely be willing to throw in a vtech if i didn't have to
get the manifolds from the donor car. i just can't spend all that
money for those right now.
hopefully this leak down will give me a better idea of whats going on.
-Ricky
Tegger
50b2ee...@g1g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
I suspect the problem is bore/ring/piston wear caused by the abrasive
particles from the sandpaper you used to clean the block surface. In other
words, the engine is now permanently damaged. For your sake, I hope I'm
wrong.
You're burning oil only on the highway now, but you'll be puffing
everywhere before long.
Tegger
> yea, all the rings were put on with the letter facing up and turned so
> it was not on the compression side of the piston or whatever the
> manual called it.
Did you put all the ring gaps so they were in line with each other?
ricky...@gmail.com
piston
i don't believe any particles could have made it into the cylinder
because they were taped off until i was finished. when the oil pan
was off, my crankshaft looked amazing and all looked well under there.
i could really find out how fast i am getting rid of oil on the
highway if i had remembered to throw the new oil pressure switch on
there while i had the engine out. now i just have to stop every two
hours and do a check.
i hope you're wrong as well about the problem being in the block. i
guess we will find out in the next few days!
Grumpy AuContraire
Tegger wrote:
I could also be a ventilation issue/emmissions etc.
JT
jim beam
complete waste of money. valves aren't sticking or they'd either be
sticking open - measurable as zero compression - or making a clattering
noise you could hear in rio. and valves themselves don't burn oil.
even with no seals, oil consumption is minor.
don't need to change manifolds afaik. it's better if you do for
performance, but i don't believe it's a prerequisite for bolt-on.
jim beam
have you done the simple stuff like check the pcv valve?
jim beam
> no the manual had the gaps at arranged at different points around the
> piston
>
> i don't believe any particles could have made it into the cylinder
> because they were taped off until i was finished.
you're laboring under a badly wrong impression on that. guaranteed.
> when the oil pan
> was off, my crankshaft looked amazing and all looked well under there.
shouldn't be surprising unless you're running without air filter, have a
blown head gasket or use truly crappy oil and never change it.
>
> i could really find out how fast i am getting rid of oil on the
> highway if i had remembered to throw the new oil pressure switch on
> there while i had the engine out. now i just have to stop every two
> hours and do a check.
>
> i hope you're wrong as well about the problem being in the block. i
> guess we will find out in the next few days!
>
dude, honestly, don't dick about with repair. while technically
possible, and i can see you geeking out on this, it's simply not cost
effective. this is not a rare engine for which no replacements are
available. and it's extremely rare for any repair to match the quality
of an originally assembled engine. simply replace for a few hundred
bucks, buy low mileage jdm, and be done. imo, buying a used engine from
a domestic junkyard is a waste of time because it'll be high mileage and
not appreciably cheaper.
go zc. i'll slap the nasal mucus out of your existing motor, and the
vtec come to that. cheapo bolt-in.
ricky...@gmail.com
that in the a.m.
kudos to the first one that can help me find a zc engine that can bolt
up to an auto tranny ( or at least help me figure out how to set it in
an auto tranny)
i'm looking at a lot of jdm sites that are out of d15b7's and d16z6's
(zc?)
jim beam
> good call, haven't thought to check the pcv valve yet. will check
> that in the a.m.
>
> kudos to the first one that can help me find a zc engine that can bolt
> up to an auto tranny ( or at least help me figure out how to set it in
> an auto tranny)
check the bolt pattern, but i've seen it done. as long as the torque
plate goes on, the transmission goes on. compare d16a6 with your d15b7
output bolt counts. do you have the honda workshop manual for your
vehicle? i have the 88-91 so we can compare notes.
>
> i'm looking at a lot of jdm sites that are out of d15b7's and d16z6's
> (zc?)
>
so call anyway. if worst comes the worst, get one from a domestic
junkyard. there are plenty out there.
ricky...@gmail.com
http://www.tigerautoparts.com/autoparts.php?category=33&query=257
i would love to get a jdm if i can. most ones in the lot around here
are around 125k. it would be like starting over with a clean slate!
jim beam
don't have direct experience of suppliers - my honda engines are
original. [but i've seen a lot of them in junkyards, especially zc's
here in ca. because they can't be smogged in this state, people smog
the car, swap the motors, run them for two years until the smog expires,
then junk them. they seem to work great, and are generally in much
better condition than the domestics because of low mileage.] but there
have been a number of people on this group doing the jdm engine thing so
google for their contributions.
ricky...@gmail.com
in canada a being sorry. checked the pcv valve today, checked out ok.
think i found an engine about 4 hours away from me. waiting to hear
back on mileage and if there were any previous problems with it. not
sure why its taken apart tho.
take a look...http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/pts/1202639282.html
jim beam
i wouldn't touch that. the whole point of going jdm is that you get an
engine that hasn't been f'ed about. one that's been disassembled, you
don't have a clue. for instance, you're supposed to reassemble head
bolts in the same location from which they came...
again, i wouldn't touch it.