Hybrid Lovers Read This and Lament
Nomen Nescio
>costs involved in maintenance: alignments up to twice or more a year,
>replacing "special" tires that cost $150 each up to every 7,000 miles,
>power and fuel economy "mystery" drops, software crashes that leave
>you in a coffin driving 65 on a freeway. Toyota needs a big boot up
>their rear for this lemon. Let us all sue the bastards for allowing
>this known defect to continue to roll.
>
>http://www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyCommentsMMY.jsp
>
>http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/firestone_prius.html
>
>http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_tires.html
>
>
> Janet of Sarasota FL (11/24/04):
>After less than two years and 16,000 miles my front tires are falling
>apart on my 2002 Toyota Prius and back tires practically threadbare.
>Neither the car dealer nor the Bridgestone dealer is willing to give
>any compensation for tire replacement. I have photos of the tires and
>had my husband not looked at them recently I could have had a major
>accident on I-75 from a blowout. The manufacturer and Toyota both knew
>about this problem and they now use different tires on the 2004 Prius.
>
>Toyota Prius
>. Availability
>. Battery
>. Fuel Gauge
>. Insurance Costs
>. Service Delays
>. Tires
>. Transmission
>. Happy Hybrid Owners
>---
>News
>. Prius Tops Consumer Satisfaction Survey
>. Hybrids Don't Always Deliver the Expected Fuel Economy
>
>
>It is costing me over $400 to replace the tires and have car aligned
>so the savings in the gasoline was moot. They should have had a recall
>on them before someone is maimed or killed.
>
>Howard of Inver Grove Heights MN (11/12/04):
>I have a 2002 Toyota Prius. It came with Bridgestone 175/65-14
>Protenza tires. At about 24,000 miles the right front blew out at
>highway speed. I was able to pull to the side of the road without
>incident and change the tire. Upon examination I discovered that the
>sidewall at its junction with the tread had separated with about a 4"
>tear. The tire was evenly worn. I purchased a repacement tire from
>Bridgestone but they would give only a $10 discount on a new tire.
>
>Several weeks later I noticed that a tire appeared to be
>underinflated. Upon examination I discovered that this tire had the
>same defect as the one stated above but the tear was only abount 1
>inch. I replaced this tire also. The Prius went in for scheduled
>maintenance about a week later and they found yet another tire with
>the same defect. (I cannot totally fault the manufacture here as this
>tire did show a wear pattern indicative of underinflation) I have
>replaced all tires with another brand. I will neither buy new tires
>nor purchase a new vehicle with Bridgestone/Firestone tires on it.
>
>Andrea of Plano TX (7/8/03):
>My complaints are numerous (2001 Toyota Prius):
>1. Front end alignment -- cause unknown. Several alignments, still
>doesn't track well.
>2. Gas tank problems -- went from 45.0mg to 29.5 mpg - took several
>trips to get the problem "solved" -- not sure that it is totally
>solved. Consumption screen is screwy and so is the gas gauge. Also
>told car loses gas mileage as they get older -- car was only a year or
>so old and a Prius doesn't use gas when stopped.
>3. Rack and pinion steering -- several trips to service before they
>agreed there's a problem and fixed it.
>4. 3rd set of tires -- 18,000, 36,000 and about 45,000 miles
>5. Accelerator assembly quit in rush hour traffic -- fixed, took two
>trips. There's still a noticeable drop in power, almost daily.
>
>Most problems "fixed" but I don't trust this car nor do I trust Toyota
>of Richardson Tex to fix my car. The second trip for the accelerator I
>was told there was nothing wrong with the car, but the "sticky" place
>disappeared after second trip. They didn't want to admit they were
>wrong.
do...@xrexxhybri.usenet.us.com
> >The Fuel savings from owning a Prius are soon overshadowed by the
> >costs involved in maintenance: alignments up to twice or more a year,
Is this a Toyota group?
It looks like Ford, GM, and Chrysler in the cross-post.
The Toyota and Honda Hybrids come with recommendations for extremely low
pressure in the tires, but anyone visiting an appropriate newsgroup (not
these), knows that the pressure should be increased, for both handling and
tire life.
Other than that, this post looks like ... complete crap.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
Grayfox
Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
> Is this a Toyota group?
> It looks like Ford, GM, and Chrysler in the cross-post.
>
> The Toyota and Honda Hybrids come with recommendations for extremely low
> pressure in the tires, but anyone visiting an appropriate newsgroup (not
> these), knows that the pressure should be increased, for both handling and
> tire life.
>
> Other than that, this post looks like ... complete crap.
>
Clarence, Nomen Nescio, whose real name is Ken Mitchell, drops in and
out of NewsGroups and is generally little more than a nuisance. He is
what is generally referred to as "A Legend in His Own Mind". His modus
operandi is to post lengthy meandering posts, which are most often
merely newspaper clips which he has plagiarized. Simply, he's not too
bright - which is why he posts through anonymous remailers. He is to be
pitied rather than scorned. Sad really.
NJ Vike
You may want to read this.
Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy.
BY BROCK YATES
September 2005
I'm not exactly a betting man, but I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that if
you're reading this nonsense you are not a hybrid-car owner. That's probably
a good wager, considering that the new miracle vehicles are stuck at about a
one-half-percent market share of the roughly 17 million annual new car and
light-truck domestic sales and that you are vastly more likely to tear up
the asphalt in a gas-swilling, earth-choking, mega-speed road rocket like
the rest of us motorized Neanderthals.
Of course, if we pay attention to the Cassandra-like fulminations of the
liberal media, we might be led to believe that hybrid vehicles are our only
hope to save us all from ozone asphyxiation and indentured slavery to the
Arab oil barons. To ignore their PC incantations and to continue our binge
buying of conventional internal-combustion engines will, according to these
all-knowing scribes and electronic chatterers, doom civilization to a dark
age embroiled in a heat-soaked Sahara.
Yeah, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Yes, we understand the feds are giving a
one-time $2000 tax credit to hybrid owners, and 16 states are offering
come-on tax breaks ($1500 in Oregon, $4173 in Colorado), inspection
exemptions, and single-driver use of HOV lanes as incentives.
Moreover, the hybrids being sold by Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Ford, and, soon,
Chevrolet are all reasonably priced. Example: The hot-selling Toyota
Prius-with a three-month waiting list in most markets-can be purchased for
under $22,000 loaded (although most experts estimate that Toyota is taking a
$2000 hit on each sale). The Pious-oops-Prius costs about $5000 more to
manufacture than a conventional Corolla and retails for about three-grand
extra.
Now let's jump ugly about the whole situation and talk a little reality. The
guys at Edmunds.com, who run hard numbers about the car business as well as
anyone, estimate that a Prius owner would have to drive at least 66,500
miles annually for five straight years, or gasoline would have to soar to 10
bucks a gallon, to equal the cost of operating a cheaper, conventional
Corolla.
Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice
boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much, according
to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000
miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids,
and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.
Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will
they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will
the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as they
age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be
answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your
flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power with
age.
And now comes word that the computer brain inside the gas-electric grids in
some Priuses is tending to go nuts. This causes instant blackout stalling at
either 35 mph or 65 mph-the latter possibly in the fast lane of an
interstate where 50-ton semis running 90 mph can crush compacts like beer
cans.
This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid
batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These are
hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact
self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these poisonous
boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be considered,
much less resolved.
And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on
the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have
announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles,
openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.
As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly realized
that the national power grid could not energize millions of vehicles without
massive expansion of horrors-nuclear generation-the dark side of the hybrid
miracle is now beginning to surface.
Says a dealer friend whose immense franchise network includes several brands
offering hybrids: "There is no advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel
mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in. Period. Do the math.
This is a feel-good purchase. Hybrids are a statement about the environment,
and they simply do not square with economic reality.
"The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords
and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look like
conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an iconic
status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."
Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost, reliability,
and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding performance and
disposability, we're going to be driving conventional
internal-combustion-powered vehicles-either gas or diesel -until rogue
asteroids clean us all out.
Daniel Armstrong
balance out all of the bad things about the prius with some of the good. A
few item I can think of are: no accessory drive belt to replace, no starter
or alternator to replace (starting is handled by motor/generator1 and 12v
battery charging is handled by a 100amp dc-dc converter with no moving parts
that gets its power from the traction battery), long brake pad life thanks
to the regenerative braking (some owners have reported better than 50% pad
material remaining at 100,000 miles). The way I see it the whole point of
owning the prius is not about the fuel economy, it is because they are fun
to drive and are 90% cleaner than a SULEV vehicle such as my friend's ford
windstar minivan (which has the infamous growling ford power steering pump
with less than 80,000 miles on the clock). Also the NiMh traction batteries
will not be filling up landfills they are being recycled presumably into new
traction batteries and/or being made into consumer AAA, AA, etc size cells
for your home use. Speaking of consumer rechargeables the mass-production of
the traction batteries has desirable side affects. Less than a year ago the
highest capacity AA size NiMh I could find were 2300mAh and those were from
1 brand with all of the others being lower capacity, last week I picked up
an 8 pack of 2500mAh ones and there were about 4 brands to choose from at
that capacity.
Backyard Mechanic
since I was a kid and I'm now in my sixties....like the experimental
Chrysler asphalt-melter turbine car of the fifties, and the Wonderful
Wankel (Mazda Rotary for you young'uns), all the glam tech is shown to
have a "man behind the curtain" that you have to ignore to feel good.
Repeat after me!!!
There is STILL nothing more efficient as motive power than producing an
explosion inside a closed box with one movable side connected to an axle!
I have YET to see that ethanol is as economical to produce as gasoline...
though that is the hype we see in ads and hear on the floors of
legislatures! Ethanol seems to be the 21st century 'perpetual motion'
fuel, and, as such, will be proven a boondoggle and nothing more.
I am STILL waiting on the Ceramic block engine I read about in the late
seventies.
I am STARTING to hear whispers that, environmentally, the Fuel cell "aint
all that green".
I'm THINKING that NiMH batteries ARE NOT going to end up in toxic waste
dumps but the effluent of battery reprocessing plants might.
All the while the cost of Natural Gas is inflated by power plant
consumption when modern coal technology is right around the corner...
snuffed by environmental concerns over what to do with the residual
'slag' after the gases are cooked out. and of course the inevitable CO2
concerns.
The TRUE best source of cheap power of course is unthinkable, never mind
that fluidized bed/pelletized fuel reactors are both safer and relatively
environmental-friendly.
- note you can go buy a natural gas powered home generator at Home Depot
as I write this.
So we wait on the next round of 'Cold Fusion' hoaxes...WHAT TO DO WITH
ALL THAT SPENT DEUTERIUM!.
But what's amazing to me, as gas prices drop below $2 at the pump here,
is all the EFFECTS of the hysteria on fuel prices, themselves... almost
as if it were a commodity investor conspiracy.....
Hmmmmm!
Meanwhile, if people WANT to buy a Hybrid to make themselves feel good,
more power to 'em. Sure cant hurt!
- - - - - -- - - - -
"NJ Vike" <ErieLac...@Scranton.com> wrote:
>
> "The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda
> Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they
> look like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling.
> It has an iconic status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's
> real life."
>
> Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost,
> reliability, and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding
> performance and disposability, we're going to be driving conventional
> internal-combustion-powered vehicles-either gas or diesel -until rogue
> asteroids clean us all out.
--
Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!
Richard
all that green".
The basic breakthrough in chemistry in the area of catalysts is still way in
the future for fuel cells. Current fuel cell technology is only possible
because of government support and military purchase programs that do not
factor in cost effectiveness or long term reliability. People I work with in
this field tell me it could be another 10 years before the technology is
mature enough for it to stand on its own.
Richard.
Central Committee of The Bonobo Chimpanzee
"Nomen Nescio" <nob...@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:7d4a6756fea12170...@dizum.com...
I will rather drive my Toyota than some General Motors
or Chrysler made piece of UAW made CRAP any day
of the week bunkie.
PFHBBLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!!
^ ^ ^ ^
(that's how you write the fart noise for the uneducated among us)
Mike Hunter
and the Escape, is buyer don't think to compare it to Toyotas similar size
car, the Corolla. Buyers looking at the other hybrids have the opportunity
to compare it to the convention powered models. When they do it quickly
become apparent that the premium price of driving home the hybrid model
will buy nearly ALL of the fuel to power the conventional model for several
years. When one factors in the enviable cost of battery replacement, at
some point down the road, purchasing the conventional powered model over the
hybrid becomes a no brainer. I think that says a lot about Toyota buyers
mike hunt
"Backyard Mechanic" >> "The truth is, although the Prius is selling like
Daniel J. Stern
> Current fuel cell technology is only possible because of government
> support
Same goes for fuel ethanol.
Daniel J. Stern
> HEh... I've been hearing the 'news' of wonderful new automotive tech
> since I was a kid and I'm now in my sixties....like the experimental
> Chrysler asphalt-melter turbine car of the fifties
That's cute and all, but not accurate. Even the earliest turbine cars'
exhaust was of comparable temperature to standard cars' exhaust as it
exited the tailpipe.
> I have YET to see that ethanol is as economical to produce as gasoline...
It's not.
> I am STILL waiting on the Ceramic block engine I read about in the late
> seventies.
Yeah, Ford farted around with ceramic engines and then suddenly quit
talking about them.
> All the while the cost of Natural Gas is inflated by power plant
> consumption when modern coal technology is right around the corner...
Well, hell's bells, then, let's all run our cars on coal!
> The TRUE best source of cheap power of course is unthinkable, never mind
> that fluidized bed/pelletized fuel reactors are both safer and
> relatively environmental-friendly.
The professionally-offended types won't have it. Nor will they have wind
power (which they give cutesy deluxe names to, such as 'bird cuisinarts').
> But what's amazing to me, as gas prices drop below $2 at the pump here,
> is all the EFFECTS of the hysteria on fuel prices, themselves... almost
> as if it were a commodity investor conspiracy.....
Gee...y'think?
Daniel J. Stern
> Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000 miles, battery
> replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the
> Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200. Moreover, the industry
> types aren't talking about total battery life. Will they actually last
> 100,000 miles?
No. My officemate has an '03 Honda Civic hybrid. It started giving
problems on his way from Montreal to Toronto. The Integrated Motor Assist
system went offline, which also meant the SLI battery (Starting, Lighting,
Ignition -- the conventional 12v item under the hood) was not being
charged. When he limped into the parking lot, his SLI battery read 9.9v.
Towed to the dealer, who after three days gave the diagnostic report: The
traction battery's dead. Good thing the battery warranty is 6 years,
otherwise it'd be a C$8,000+ event. Dealer claims this is the first-ever
failure of a traction battery in a Honda hybrid of any year or model,
anywhere in the world (Sure, right...) and that a new traction battery has
to be brought in from Japan, which will take AT LEAST three weeks.
Of course, there are multiple different issues going on here. There's the
car problem itself, then there's the dealer's fairy tales. I can think of
half a dozen courier companies that'll happily get a package from Japan to
North America in a matter of a couple of days, so that shoots the "three
weeks to come from Japan" theory all to hell. And if this were indeed the
very first-ever instance of this heretofore unheard-of failure in one of
Honda's high-profile, high-PR-value enviro models, one would think the
company would be falling all over itself to make the repair as quickly as
possible to keep the customer as quiet as possible about it.
> How will this affect resale value?
Pah. What resale value? This kind of traction battery failure does NOT
bode well for the durability of these cars. Sure, it's covered under his
battery warranty. The new replacement battery does not reset the battery
warranty clock. What about in 5 years? They are disposable cars. 10 years
*tops*. More like "end of warranty plus time to next failure".
> This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid
> batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These
> are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact
> self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these
> poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to
> be considered, much less resolved.
NiMH batteries are indeed hair-raisingly toxic and expensive to
reclaim/recycle. Once no longer in the dealer chain, they will simply get
tossed -- along with the rest of the car.
DS
do...@xrexxstill.usenet.us.com
> car, the Corolla. Buyers looking at the other hybrids have the opportunity
> to compare it to the convention powered models. When they do it quickly
> become apparent that the premium price of driving home the hybrid model
> will buy nearly ALL of the fuel to power the conventional model for several
I say 100,000 miles for my Ford Escape. That may be 10 years for some
people, two or three for others.
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend
out all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
Backyard Mechanic
>> HEh... I've been hearing the 'news' of wonderful new automotive tech
>> since I was a kid and I'm now in my sixties....like the experimental
>> Chrysler asphalt-melter turbine car of the fifties
>
> That's cute and all, but not accurate. Even the earliest turbine cars'
> exhaust was of comparable temperature to standard cars' exhaust as it
> exited the tailpipe.
>
Is that right?!!!
Granted, the only real problem was at long stops at stop signs, signals,
etc... where DID that turbine heat go?
necromancer
to say this in rec.autos.driving on 21 Nov 2005 09:35:24 -0800:
> Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
> family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
> 250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
>
>
<intro to business lesson>
Then why don't they?
</intro to business lesson>
John Horner
>
> No. My officemate has an '03 Honda Civic hybrid. It started giving
> problems on his way from Montreal to Toronto. The Integrated Motor
> Assist system went offline, which also meant the SLI battery (Starting,
> Lighting, Ignition -- the conventional 12v item under the hood) was not
> being charged. When he limped into the parking lot, his SLI battery read
> 9.9v.
>
Yep, this is the dirty little secret of hybrids. They are going to be
worthless after they hit the end of warranty period because the cost to
replace the battery pack will exceed the value of the vehicle.
Have people learning nothing from cell phones and laptop computers where
failure to take a charge rechargeable batteries are often the death
sentence?
John
Backyard Mechanic
And just plate it brass when the occasion arises and doubles as a neat-o
coffin! Holds a family of four to save plot space too!
;)
doug
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kNngf.2035$PC2.606@trnddc03...
Hold on there! I just bought a replacement battery for my Dell Inspiron -
total cost $72. It was a little over two years old (a bit soon for failure
IMHO). But the cost was only about 10-15% of the laptop's resale value.
Certainly no reason to trash it.
Point being that IF the cost of a replacement battery pack for a hybrid was
10-15% of the vehicle's value at the time it was needed, the resale would
not be so adversely affected. I admit, though, that the price is unlikely to
drop to that level.
Doug
Larry Bud
What the fuck would you know about routain maintenance, Mr. Drive a POS
vehicle with bald tires and no dash lights?
Alex Rodriguez
xeto...@yahoo.com says...
>The whole idea of hybrids is stupid. Just make cars smaller and leave
>out all the useless crap.
Holy shit, you are making sense.
>Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
>family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
>250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
Then right on cue, you do a 180 and starting talking out of your ass.
I suggest you go to China and drive an $8000 car. I think you will be
unpleasantly surprised.
Replacing steel with other materials could help bring the weight of cars
down, but the price is not going be anywhere near $8k.
---------------
Alex
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend
Cause they make more selling the $50,000 cars with all sorts of
useless gadgets. You think they sell AC and CD players and electric
seats at cost??
Daniel J. Stern
>> Even the earliest turbine cars' exhaust was of comparable temperature
>> to standard cars' exhaust as it exited the tailpipe.
>>
>
> Is that right?!!!
Yep. One of the very first publicity photos was of a 1954 turbine-equipped
car running with a gentleman's hand placed about six inches from the
tailpipe.
> Granted, the only real problem was at long stops at stop signs, signals,
> etc...
This "melted asphalt" problem exists only in your head (and possibly in
the typewriters of certain ignorant motoring press yuk-yuks)
> where DID that turbine heat go?
Where DOES that piston-engine heat go?
Mike Hunter
mike
"necromancer" <necro...@kretp.tmy> wrote in message
news:MPG.1debd219d...@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Mike Hunter
mike
"necromancer" <necro...@kretp.tmy> wrote in message
news:MPG.1debd219d...@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Steve
>> where DID that turbine heat go?
Out the tailpipe, but don't confuse "heat" with "temperature."
Suppose you have a piston engine and a gas turbine engine that both put
out the same amount of power and are the same efficiency. That implies
that they both have to shed exactly the same amount of waste heat
energy. For the piston engine, much of the waste heat goes out the
radiator, a little bit out the oil pan, and a fair amount out the
exhaust pipe. OK, for the turbine almost all of it goes out the tailpipe
because there IS no radiator. But the exhaust isn't any hotter, because
the turbine pumps so much excess air through its exhaust. IOW, it puts
out a much bigger volume of exhaust (much of it just hot air) than does
the gasoline engine, so the heat energy flow down the exhaust pipe is
greater but the exhaust gas temperature is about the same.
Remember, heat energy flow is proportional to temperature x volume. Make
the volume big enough and the temperature can be the same (or lower) for
a larger total heat flow.
ILoveMyS...@spamgourmet.com
Have a good weekend at the bath house, pud licker?
Mike Hunter
some point. Current cost of the Escape battery pack is over $7,000 ;)
mike
<do...@XReXXStill.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
news:dlsv65$blq$1...@blue.rahul.net...
> In alt.autos.ford Mike Hunter <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>> car, the Corolla. Buyers looking at the other hybrids have the
>> opportunity
>> to compare it to the convention powered models. When they do it quickly
>> become apparent that the premium price of driving home the hybrid model
>> will buy nearly ALL of the fuel to power the conventional model for
>> several
>> years
Xeton2001IsAM...@spamgourmet.com
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:
But then they wouldn't be able to pay the salaries of those socialist
UAW members, would they?
do...@xrexxstill.usenet.us.com
> I hope you are you putting away some money to replace the battery pack a
> some point. Current cost of the Escape battery pack is over $7,000 ;)
Last time this came up, I asked what the list price was at the Ford dealer
for the standard 12v battery.
X-rated Vermonter
<danielt...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>I personally do not own a prius yet but I think sometimes you have to
>balance out all of the bad things about the prius with some of the good. Also the NiMh traction batteries
>will not be filling up landfills they are being recycled presumably into new
>traction batteries and/or being made into consumer AAA, AA, etc size cells
>for your home use. Speaking of consumer rechargeables the mass-production of
>the traction batteries has desirable side affects. Less than a year ago the
>highest capacity AA size NiMh I could find were 2300mAh and those were from
>1 brand with all of the others being lower capacity, last week I picked up
>an 8 pack of 2500mAh ones and there were about 4 brands to choose from at
>that capacity.
=======
I never knew that the Prius ran on AA NiMh batteries.
>
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE
wrote:
I change the oil every 1500 miles and grease the front end every 1000.
And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
That's what i'm talking about. My present vehicle has 190K on it and
is as happy as a republican at a bathhouse.
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE
wrote:
I'm not talking about getting rid of steel just getting rid of all the
useless expensive gadgets. Forget the AC, PS, PB, electric seats and
windows. Leave out the radio-CD player and garbage like the trunk
light and the notorious windshield washer fluid guage.
Cars could be so much simpler than they are and they would cost much
less and with fewer problems. But GM Ford, toyota and honda work
together as a monopoly to give us this overpriced junk.
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE
wrote:
>
>Have people learning nothing from cell phones and laptop computers where
>failure to take a charge rechargeable batteries are often the death
>sentence?
>
>John
Ever hear of proofreading??
Scott en Aztlán
<xeto...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>necromancer wrote:
>> Laura Bush murdered her boy friend, <xeto...@yahoo.com> was motivated
>> to say this in rec.autos.driving on 21 Nov 2005 09:35:24 -0800:
>> > Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
>> > family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
>> > 250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> <intro to business lesson>
>>
>> Then why don't they?
Because they are too saddled with pension and health care obligations
thanks to Organized Labor.
>Cause they make more selling the $50,000 cars with all sorts of
>useless gadgets. You think they sell AC and CD players and electric
>seats at cost??
Don't forget the most useless gadgets of all: alarm systems...
c-bee1_likes_its_f...@spamgourmet.com
Speaking at republicans at bath houses, remember this quote from one of
your posts, faggot?
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie. I get
RESPECT now.
:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en
c-bee1_likes_its_f...@spamgourmet.com
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:
Just waiting for you to address it, homo.
--
Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend (Xeto...@yahoo.com)'s words of
wisdom, love, and respect (spelling and grammatical errors left intact)
c-bee1_likes_its_f...@spamgourmet.com
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:
What would you know about the subject, faggot?
c-bee1_likes_its_f...@spamgourmet.com
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:
Just maintaining your low standards, semen slurper.
necromancer
say this in rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:43:52 GMT:
> I change the oil every 1500 miles and grease the front end every 1000.
> And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
> That's what i'm talking about.
>
How's that emergency brake doing, psycho??
--
Get back under your bridge, troll!
"Hey stupid - I've tried to fix it and i can't. The cable adjusting
nuts are rusted solid."
--Laura Bush - Vehicular Homicide (a.k.a. Laura Bush murdered her
boyfriend, Pride of America, aunt millie and Judy Dairya,
among others. See: http://tinyurl.com/ahphj),
6 Apr 2005 11:05:54 -0700
Ref: or9851dpb7a4s8fduf7bf83gab02t9u...@4ax.com
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/8exv3
necromancer
> I'm not talking about getting rid of steel just getting rid of all the
> useless expensive gadgets. Forget the AC, PS, PB, electric seats and
> windows. Leave out the radio-CD player and garbage like the trunk
and emergency brakes and tires with thread....
--
"My tars have been bald for two years.
Every month i glue some sandpaper to them and
everythings cool."
--Laura Buch murdered her boyfriend
/ laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE 10/25/05
Message ID: s2ttl1tgnpq5pr6p4...@4ax.com
http://tinyurl.com/7p7xq
Bob
"Steve" <n...@spam.thanks> wrote in message
news:qYqdnWTdGPsqyR_e...@texas.net...
>
>>> where DID that turbine heat go?
>
>
> Out the tailpipe, but don't confuse "heat" with "temperature."
>
> Suppose you have a piston engine and a gas turbine engine that both put
> out the same amount of power and are the same efficiency. That implies
> that they both have to shed exactly the same amount of waste heat energy.
> For the piston engine, much of the waste heat goes out the radiator, a
> little bit out the oil pan, and a fair amount out the exhaust pipe. OK,
> for the turbine almost all of it goes out the tailpipe because there IS no
> radiator. But the exhaust isn't any hotter, because the turbine pumps so
> much excess air through its exhaust. IOW, it puts out a much bigger volume
> of exhaust (much of it just hot air)
IOW a turbine is much like Stern.....
Ted 'defend me and be a criminal coddler' Kennedy
<necro...@kretp.tmy> was understood to have stated the following:
>laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE, <xeto...@yahoo.com> was motivated to
>say this in rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:49:23 GMT:
>> I'm not talking about getting rid of steel just getting rid of all the
>> useless expensive gadgets. Forget the AC, PS, PB, electric seats and
>> windows. Leave out the radio-CD player and garbage like the trunk
>> light...
>
>and emergency brakes and tires with thread....
and speedometers....
--
"Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en
Joshua Calvert <joshua_l...@hotmail.com> demonstrates his lack of understanding of the terms "sarcasm", "irony", and "hypocrisy":
Poor rightard, forced to whine about an 40 year old event.
Message-ID: <Xns970A68202F1C5jo...@68.6.19.6>
Bill Putney
> This "melted asphalt" problem exists only in your head (and possibly in
> the typewriters of certain ignorant motoring press yuk-yuks)
However it is a real problem for Harrier jets in hover mode. :)
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney
> ...And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
> That's what i'm talking about...
New plugs, rotor, and cap every 10k? That's not very smart.
Ted 'defend me and be a criminal coddler' Kennedy
understood to have stated the following:
>
>New plugs, rotor, and cap every 10k? That's not very smart.
He has to; his POS beater keeps fouling them out.
Daniel Armstrong
capacity modules for the car helps to make all sizes and shapes of cells
better(the original 1997-2000 model in japan only did use "D" size cells in
the traction battery)
Brent P
> NiMH batteries are indeed hair-raisingly toxic and expensive to
> reclaim/recycle. Once no longer in the dealer chain, they will simply get
> tossed -- along with the rest of the car.
And to think, the point where conventional cars could be entirely
recycled had just been reached.
(I was watching ask-this-old-house a couple weeks ago and they had a
landscaping railroad tie type thing that was made out out of the 'fluff',
the last 6% or so of material from automobilies that nobody had a use
for)
Brent P
> laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:
>
> > ...And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
> > That's what i'm talking about...
>
> New plugs, rotor, and cap every 10k? That's not very smart.
Especially when using a flashlight to see the gauges and all the other
things that are let go.
Ted 'defend me and be a criminal coddler' Kennedy
<xeto...@yahoo.com> was understood to have stated the following:
>I change the oil every 1500 miles and grease the front end every 1000.
>And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
Damned, your car must be a real POS if you've got to change the plugs
and rotor/cap every 10k.
Ted 'defend me and be a criminal coddler' Kennedy
<mike...@mailcity.com> was understood to have stated the following:
>What would you expect form a guy that says Mrs. Bush murder someone? LOL
Not much...
Which is exactly what we get.
Robert "Sheets" Byrd
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 01:10:45 -0500, Bill Putney <bp...@kinez.net> was
> understood to have stated the following:
>
>
>>New plugs, rotor, and cap every 10k? That's not very smart.
>
>
> He has to; his POS beater keeps fouling them out.
Oh I see! :)
Spam Hater
"Laura Bush murdered her boy friend" <xeto...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The whole idea of hybrids is stupid. Just make cars smaller and leave
> out all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
> family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
> 250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
For more money you can now get a European car giving more MPG and more
trouble free miles.
Spam Hater
laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE <xeto...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I change the oil every 1500 miles
Too soon.
> and grease the front end every 1000.
Very frequent.
> And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
Too frequent for the plugs.
> That's what i'm talking about. My present vehicle has 190K on it and
> is as happy as a republican at a bathhouse.
Your current vehicle must be very old to require such frequent oil and
plug changes. If it isn't old you're wasting the environment.
Ted 'defend me and be a criminal coddler' Kennedy
understood to have stated the following:
>In article <9o45o1lemcula40k1...@4ax.com>,
Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend (Xeto...@yahoo.com)'s words of
wisdom, love, and respect (spelling and grammatical errors left
intact)
Even a safety nut like me doesn't carry things that far.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/c24964a9d26bba6d?hl=en&
My tars have been bald for two years. Every month i glue some
sandpaper to them and everythings cool - as long as you drive slow and
sensible.
: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/d0d9405ce0464706?hl=en&
Driving twenty year old beaters doesn't keep me up to date. Anyway
it's a stupid idea.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/ff331395cfc7b81b?hl=en
My dash lights burned out years ago.
: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/1edbd9e8ee94fa7a?
Yes, but never deliberately. In fact i got a speeding ticket about 5
years ago for doing 41 in a 25. I just about kicked the cops teeth in
cause i was sure he was lying. No way the SL on this wide open stretch
could be 25, i thought. Turns out the cop was right. No complaints
from me then. I should have known the law.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.autos/msg/b140009050c624a9
STFU YOU HATEFILLED TROLL.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf/msg/4bafc59af1481a15?hl=en
I'm the troll here dood.
: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/15b11b019363dee4?hl=en&
I'm the troll here.
: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.golf/msg/d6c3bc1eb365fc67?hl=en&
Fork you, beyatch. I'm the greatest troll that ever lived!!!!
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/msg/8316b755126bd447
Being a troll is an honorable life.
: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/c795f38d501be2d8?hl=en&
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Daniel J. Stern" <das...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.63.05...@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, NJ Vike quoted from Car & Driver:
>
> > Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000 miles, battery
> > replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the
> > Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200. Moreover, the industry
> > types aren't talking about total battery life. Will they actually last
> > 100,000 miles?
>
> No. My officemate has an '03 Honda Civic hybrid. It started giving
> problems on his way from Montreal to Toronto. The Integrated Motor Assist
> system went offline, which also meant the SLI battery (Starting, Lighting,
> Ignition -- the conventional 12v item under the hood) was not being
> charged. When he limped into the parking lot, his SLI battery read 9.9v.
>
> Towed to the dealer, who after three days gave the diagnostic report: The
> traction battery's dead. Good thing the battery warranty is 6 years,
> otherwise it'd be a C$8,000+ event. Dealer claims this is the first-ever
> failure of a traction battery in a Honda hybrid of any year or model,
> anywhere in the world (Sure, right...) and that a new traction battery has
> to be brought in from Japan, which will take AT LEAST three weeks.
>
> Of course, there are multiple different issues going on here. There's the
> car problem itself, then there's the dealer's fairy tales. I can think of
> half a dozen courier companies that'll happily get a package from Japan to
> North America in a matter of a couple of days, so that shoots the "three
> weeks to come from Japan" theory all to hell. And if this were indeed the
> very first-ever instance of this heretofore unheard-of failure in one of
> Honda's high-profile, high-PR-value enviro models, one would think the
> company would be falling all over itself to make the repair as quickly as
> possible to keep the customer as quiet as possible about it.
>
> > How will this affect resale value?
>
> Pah. What resale value? This kind of traction battery failure does NOT
> bode well for the durability of these cars. Sure, it's covered under his
> battery warranty. The new replacement battery does not reset the battery
> warranty clock. What about in 5 years? They are disposable cars. 10 years
> *tops*. More like "end of warranty plus time to next failure".
>
Hold on there Daniel!
The battery industry is well able to come up with aftermarket replacement
batteries for these cars. They aren't doing so now because there's no
demand
for them - because the warranties are all still in effect.
The dollar values of these battery packs are funny money, they are
accounting
fictions. Since the automakers pays for the warranty replacement of the
battery, the automakers can price them however they want.
Consider for a moment this scenario. Honda could have figured out
even before commencing manufacture that the battery pack will fail
at least 1 time under warranty. We also know that Honda is probably
losing $2,000 on every new hybrid they manufacture.
So Honda decided to engage in a bit of creative accounting. In order to
minimize the loss on each car that they manufacture, they understate the
actual cost of the battey pack by $2000. Thus while the real dollar
amount they are losing on every new car is $4,000, because the
battery pack is underestimated, the loss looks less than it is really.
Now, they have to get the money for these understated batteries
somewhere. That's where the overinflated $8000 warranty battery
comes in. Because it's a warranty, Honda can argue next year
to it's stockholders that they didn't know warranty costs on the hybrids
would be so high, thus their profits are down. In the meantime the
$8000 warranty batteries are actually subsidizing the cost of the
new batteries.
You have to assume that Honda's and Toyota's stockholders will
tolerate some loss on hybrids, as a skunkworks market. But
they won't tolerate it for very long, and they won't tolerate it
if it's pretty massive. If the loss gets to high the investors will
force those companies to jettison hybrid production. So if Honda's
managers want to continue building and losing money on hybrids,
they are going to have to do some creative accounting tricks
to hide some of the losses on these cars. Pushing the loss out
of the manufacturing cost bucket and into the warranty claims
bucket is one of these tricks.
> > This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid
> > batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These
> > are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact
> > self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these
> > poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to
> > be considered, much less resolved.
>
> NiMH batteries are indeed hair-raisingly toxic and expensive to
> reclaim/recycle. Once no longer in the dealer chain, they will simply get
> tossed -- along with the rest of the car.
>
Why are you thinking that these cars batteries are going to be replaced
by NiMH? My guess is the aftermarket battery industry will come out
with a lead acid gel cell conventional technology retrofit battery for these
cars, that will cost a quarter of the NiMH. Obviously the fuel mileage will
suffer but not a lot, and the battery industry is under no obligation to
manufacture a part that will retain the existing mileage. All that would
probably need to be done is a reprogrammed battery computer to
be installed that will properly maintain charge on a lead acid pack.
Ted
Mike Hunter
mike hunt
<do...@XReXXStill.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
news:dltnph$4ha$1...@blue.rahul.net...
> In alt.autos.ford Mike Hunter <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote:
>> I hope you are you putting away some money to replace the battery pack a
>> some point. Current cost of the Escape battery pack is over $7,000 ;)
>
> Last time this came up, I asked what the list price was at the Ford dealer
> for the standard 12v battery.
>
>
> ---
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
>
Mike Hunter
produce enough voltage? ;)
mike
"Ted Mittelstaedt" >
John Horner
You must have way too much time on your hands to be spending it
nitpicking on usenet over spelling and grammar. Now go back to that
high school and make the kids there miserable like so many teachers do.
John
necromancer
rec.autos.driving on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:31:09 GMT:
> You must have way too much time on your hands to be spending it
> nitpicking on usenet over spelling and grammar. Now go back to that
> high school and make the kids there miserable like so many teachers do.
Judy spends its free time (when its not showing its silliness in r.a.d.)
by sitting out in the back porch of its trailer wearing a tinfoil hat
and watching for black helicopters with UN logos piloted by grey
aliens...
Steve
> On 21 Nov 2005 10:44:27 -0800, "Larry Bud" <larryb...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:
>>
>>>The whole idea of hybrids is stupid. Just make cars smaller and leave
>>>out all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
>>>family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
>>>250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.
>>
>>What the fuck would you know about routain maintenance, Mr. Drive a POS
>>vehicle with bald tires and no dash lights?
>
>
> I change the oil every 1500 miles and grease the front end every 1000.
Absolutely idiotic! Changing the oil at 3000 mile intervals is wasteful
enough given that modern oils are generally good to 7000 or more miles,
1500 is just flat stupid. But what I'd expect from an "environmental
responsibility is for everyone BUT me" liberal...
Backyard Mechanic
Here we go again!
NOT if that coincides with every three months on a grocery getter..
BUT!
Lubing joints that often MAY be bad... tends to burst boots and seals,
leading to premature failure, UNLESS you are very careful.
--
Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!
necromancer
on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:24:42 -0600:
> But what I'd expect from an "environmental
> responsibility is for everyone BUT me" liberal...
Or a speed limits are for everyone BUT me nincompoop...
--
"> Have you ever driven a car faster than the legal speed limit?
Yes, but never deliberately. In fact i got a speeding ticket about 5
years ago for doing 41 in a 25. I just about kicked the cops teeth in
cause i was sure he was lying. No way the SL on this wide open
stretch could be 25, i thought."
Pride of America (c.k.a. "laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMOCIDE), 10/3/2002
Message-ID: <3c1753f7.02100...@posting.google.com>
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/5u4wg
Connecting POA to LBMHB/lbVH:
See the following: http://tinyurl.com/ahphj
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend
Bill Putney wrote:
> laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE wrote:
>
> > ...And i change the air filter and plugs and rotor/cap every 10k or so.
> > That's what i'm talking about...
>
> New plugs, rotor, and cap every 10k? That's not very smart.
>
I got an old car. Not old enough to have points mind you; it does use
electronic ignition. But even with EI i don't believe that 30K miles
stuff. Same with greasing the front end. Every 1000 miles sounds like
overkill to some people but i think it's a good idea.
TedKennedyMurderedHisP...@spamgourmet.com
Uh, Judy hasn't been to high school yet.
Bill Putney
> Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
> produce enough voltage? ;)
Mike Hunter wrote:
> Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
> produce enough voltage? ;)
Put two 9 volt transistor radio batteries in series and you have enough
*voltage* - I can carry that in my pocket. I think you mean enough
power - voltage is only half the equation. :)
TedKennedyMurderedHisP...@spamgourmet.com
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:
Only person I've ever known to switch the plugs out every 10k or so did
so at the end of his vehicle's life, and ended up selling his POS
beater for scrap. Damned thing belched so much smoke when it was
running (which was rare) and it's idling (if it could be considered
idling) was horrendous. Guy had to keep one foot on the brake and one
on the gas at stop signs to make sure the thing wouldn't choke out.
Mike Hunter
To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common
flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce more
amps. Ask Mr. Ohms ;)
mike
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:dm0c5e$tlb$1...@news.isdn.net...
Whoever
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, Mike Hunter wrote:
> Hydrides use higher voltage to produce the proper amperage to do the work.
> To do so with LA batteries you would need a truck load. All common
> flashlight batteries produce 1 1/2 volts but the larger sizes produce more
> amps. Ask Mr. Ohms ;)
I think Mr. Ohms did not give you a complete reply when you asked him.
Different battery technologies have different voltages per CELL. A normal
flashlight battery is a single cell that produces 1.5v. NiCd battery cells
produce a little under 1.5v. Lead acid battery cells produce 2v per cell
-- a normal 12v battery has 6 cells in series.
There are 2 other factors that are key to battery usage:
1. Internal resistance. This really determines how large a current the
battery can deliver.
2. Capacity: how long can the battery deliver the necessary current?
Now, to replace a battery with one of a different type, one would have to
match the voltage and the internal resistance (otherwise it would not
produce the necessary power) of the original. To build a small 48v LA
battery is not hard -- it just requires 24 cells, each of which could be
quite small. The overall size need not be bigger than a standard 12v
battery.
The next question becomes the capacity -- or really, the energy storage
density. How much energy can you store in a given weight or size?
Finally, as was mentioned earlier, charging would likely be a problem when
replacing one type of battery with another: a charging profile that works
well for one battery technology may kill another quite quickly.
So, it's not just about what Mr. Ohm says, but also what Mr. Capacity says
and Mr. charging profile.
So, the question should be: Will they also design a trailer to carry all
the LA batteries need to store enough energy?
Bill Putney
Exactly. I didn't realize they used a nominal 48V. So to modify what I
said in my previous, you could get the 48 volts still with a pocketful
(6) of 9-volt transistor radio batteries. Like you said - you have to
have the energy/power. That's why I said that voltage is only half the
equation.
Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the
convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to
*not* capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write
"48 volt battery", or "48V battery". :)
Whoever
I am not claiming that they use 48V. This may be correct, or not. I have
read that there are some plans to move all vehicle systems to 48V.
> Since we're being picky, as with all units named after a person, the
> convention is to capitalize the 'V' when *abbreviating* "volts", and to *not*
> capitalize it when writing it out. For example, you would write "48 volt
> battery", or "48V battery". :)
Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered that. I have even been
to Volta's birthplace.
Grayfox
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.05...@localhost.localdomain...
<snip>
> I have even been to Volta's birthplace.
<lol> We can only hope that you return to Volta's birthplace soon and
spare us further painfully boring rhetoric. You two could drive old
people to fornicate!
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:ZtWdnSxKK8B...@ptd.net...
> Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
> produce enough voltage? ;)
>
:-)
Very funny, I'll admit I laughed.
But seriously, in a hybrid, the battery is simply used to store braking
energy, it is
not used as power source like batteries are in an electric car. The energy
comes
from the gasoline engine, the battery capacity only needs to be big enough
to store
a reserve.
http://www.edrivesystems.com/ has already demonstrated a working electric
vehicle
retrofit on the Prius that REPLACES the existing Prius NiMH battery and
Toyota
battery control computer. They aren't selling it yet - for obvious
reasons - no demand
since all the Priuses are still under battery warranty. But their install
keeps the
gasoline engine, which means that for a Prius to be a candidate for this
company, it
really needs to have a shot battery that isn't under warranty, and a
gasoline engine
that is expected to last at least for the following decade, in order to
cover the
expected life of the replacement system
I think this is not a particularly valid approach - because Toyota's battery
warranty
is going to insure that by the time the battery comes off warranty, that the
gasoline engine in the Prius will be shot.
A better approach I think is to gut the battery and engine and computer and
all that garbage out of the vehicle, and install an even larger battery pack
and
charger and make it fully an electric vehicle. It would, of course, kill
it's
usefulness for long distance interstate drives of hundreds of miles, but
it would be still very useful as an around-the-town vehicle.
The General Motors EV-1 program demonstrated that there IS a market for
fully electric vehicles. Lots of people screamed when GM took back their
EV1s. The problem with the GM initative is that the demand wasn't large
enough
for GM to make the EV1 profitably.
BUT, in a decade or so when there's lots of used Priuses that have shot
batteries,
not under warranty, and shot gasoline engines, why then the economics will
be quite different.
There have been people doing electric cars for years - Flight Systems Inc.
for
example sold plans to convert a Chevy Chevette to full electric, using a 6
volt
lead acid battery bank, back in 1982, that would go 30-40 miles on a single
charge. A book "build your own electric vehicle" by Bob Bryant in 1994 did
a 1993 Ford Ranger pickup conversion that would go 75Mph and got 60
miles to the charge that also used lead-acid batteries.
The only difference between these two more low-tech approaches and the
higher-tech edrivesystems approach, is the edrivesystems approach uses
lithion ion batteries, and a computer to manage power and charging, while
the older designs used simpler electronics and lead-acid batteries. The
higher-tech approach is more expensive and gets you a greater range, but
the lower-tech approach could be done by anyone in their garage.
So yes, I do think that when the warranty ends on the traction battery in
a hybrid, that there will be lots of choices other than to drop $5000 into
a new traction battery, into a vehicle that probably has about 4 years of
life left in it's gasoline engine.
Ted
Matt Whiting
> "Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:ZtWdnSxKK8B...@ptd.net...
>
>>Will they also design a trailer to carry all the LA batteries need to
>>produce enough voltage? ;)
>>
>
>
> :-)
>
> Very funny, I'll admit I laughed.
>
> But seriously, in a hybrid, the battery is simply used to store braking
> energy, it is
> not used as power source like batteries are in an electric car. The energy
> comes
> from the gasoline engine, the battery capacity only needs to be big enough
> to store
> a reserve.
It is used as a power source, just not the only power source. There are
many modes of operation where the power required by a hybrid exceeds
what the gasoline engine alone can provide and then the battery pack is
a power source.
> The General Motors EV-1 program demonstrated that there IS a market for
> fully electric vehicles. Lots of people screamed when GM took back their
> EV1s. The problem with the GM initative is that the demand wasn't large
> enough
> for GM to make the EV1 profitably.
They proved that there was a market for HIGHLY subsidized electric
vehicles. If they had charged what these vehicles actually cost them,
they market would have likely been zero. A subsidized market doesn't
reflect the true underlying demand.
> BUT, in a decade or so when there's lots of used Priuses that have shot
> batteries,
> not under warranty, and shot gasoline engines, why then the economics will
> be quite different.
Yep, the glow will wear off in a few more years as the first vehicles
begin to require substantial maintenance and replacement of expensive
components.
Matt
Mike Hunter
Escape operate, if that is what you believe. When I drove them, while
running below a certain speed the electric motor alone did the motivating.
The engine did not come on until they were up to speed or when the HVAC
system was operating
mike hunt
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$mqbgqi$j031$1...@news.ipinc.net...
Mike Hunter
the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an
engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v
battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a
motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in question?
Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a
windshield wiper motor? ;)
mike
"Whoever" <nob...@devnull.none> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.05...@localhost.localdomain...
>
>
Dori A Schmetterling
48 V, which is the actual official way...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"Bill Putney" <bp...@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:dm313s$d7t$1...@news.isdn.net...
[...]
Ted Mittelstaedt
> Better do some research on how the hybrid systems in the Pruis and the
> Escape operate, if that is what you believe. When I drove them, while
> running below a certain speed the electric motor alone did the motivating.
> The engine did not come on until they were up to speed or when the HVAC
> system was operating
>
Try driving one below a certain speed for more than 20 minutes and see
what happens.
This is a vehicle that takes gasoline as a power source, there is no plug
for a charger. I understood it only stores power generated from
braking but if they are powering it from the battery for low speed
operation, they are obviously running the gasoline motor in a way
as to produce more energy to motivate the car, and sucking some of
that off to charge the battery. Nevertheless, the battery does not
produce power out of thin air. It either comes from regenerative
braking or from the gasoline engine. Thus the battery capacity does
not need to be as large as a fully electric car. I still think it would
be quite easy to substitute lead-acid batteries for the NiMh traction
battery, assuming you wanted to preserve the gas engine and
such.
The significant thing here is that in the Prius or other hybrid you
have a complete vehicle chassis with an interior, carpet, seats,
etc. and powertrain that is fully electric. 80% of the work is done
for you in building an electric car, all you have to do is gut the
gas engine and traction battery and the Toyota computer, and
put your own batteries in, configured to supply the power that
the Toyota traction motor requires, and add a charger.
Clearly in old used Priuses, the traction battery and gasoline
engine will wear out long before the electric traction motors
do. It is really a ripe candidate for a conversion once that happens,
since you will be able to get them for practically nothing, and
nobody is forcing you to replace their guts with Toyota's
rather expensive hybrid system.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
> OK I was not entirely correct. They would NOT need to design a trailer
for
> the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an
> engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v
> battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a
> motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in
question?
> Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a
> windshield wiper motor? ;)
>
If AAA carbon batteries could supply the high current needed they would do
it, but if that was the case AAA batteries would be somewhat dangerous to
use
in consumer applications.
You can take 8 AAA nicads, fully charged, and draw an arc with them, though.
(OK, a small one)
Ted
Whoever
On Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> The significant thing here is that in the Prius or other hybrid you
> have a complete vehicle chassis with an interior, carpet, seats,
> etc. and powertrain that is fully electric. 80% of the work is done
> for you in building an electric car, all you have to do is gut the
> gas engine and traction battery and the Toyota computer, and
> put your own batteries in, configured to supply the power that
> the Toyota traction motor requires, and add a charger.
>
A group of researchers built an interesting mod to a Prius (or some other
hybrid). They added more batteries - but not enough for a long range --
and a charger.
The result was a vehicle that could cope with a short commute using energy
from the overnight charge, while long distances could also be achieved
through the gas engine. The overall fuel economy (and vehicle cost) was
significantly greater than that of the original hybrid, while the range
was grater than that of a 100% battery vehicle.
Ken Weitzel
Mike Hunter wrote:
> OK I was not entirely correct. They would NOT need to design a trailer for
> the LA batteries, they will need to design one for the LA batteries AND an
> engine driven generator. Ask Mr. Ohms this question. Why are the 12v
> battery and the starter in my V8 Lincoln so much larger then the ones in a
> motorcycle, neither one of which needs to motivates the vehicle in question?
> Why don't they just use 8 AAA batteries and a starter the size of a
> windshield wiper motor? ;)
>
>
> mike
Yes! And a recoil starter, just like on my snowblower for when the
batteries get weak! :) :)
Ken
Ken Weitzel
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
Hi...
If one is foolish enough to put 4 AA nimh's in their pocket while
bike riding with their grand daughter, they can burn their leg
terribly painfully, leaving a bad scar :(
Don't ask me how I know that, eh? :)
Ted Mittelstaedt
"Whoever" <nob...@devnull.none> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.05...@localhost.localdomain...
>
>
Yes, that was the http://www.edrivesystems.com/ link that I already posted.
Ted
Coasty
pioneers, and you know how you could tell who the poineers were? They were
the ones face down with arrows in there back.
--
Coasty
Remove The SPOOGE To Reply
"NJ Vike" <ErieLac...@Scranton.com> wrote in message
news:YBggf.3651$wf....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Here's an interesting article from Car & Driver on the subject:
>
>
> You may want to read this.
>
> Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy.
> BY BROCK YATES
> September 2005
>
>
> I'm not exactly a betting man, but I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that if
> you're reading this nonsense you are not a hybrid-car owner. That's
> probably a good wager, considering that the new miracle vehicles are stuck
> at about a one-half-percent market share of the roughly 17 million annual
> new car and light-truck domestic sales and that you are vastly more likely
> to tear up the asphalt in a gas-swilling, earth-choking, mega-speed road
> rocket like the rest of us motorized Neanderthals.
>
> Of course, if we pay attention to the Cassandra-like fulminations of the
> liberal media, we might be led to believe that hybrid vehicles are our
> only hope to save us all from ozone asphyxiation and indentured slavery to
> the Arab oil barons. To ignore their PC incantations and to continue our
> binge buying of conventional internal-combustion engines will, according
> to these all-knowing scribes and electronic chatterers, doom civilization
> to a dark age embroiled in a heat-soaked Sahara.
>
> Yeah, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Yes, we understand the feds are giving
> a one-time $2000 tax credit to hybrid owners, and 16 states are offering
> come-on tax breaks ($1500 in Oregon, $4173 in Colorado), inspection
> exemptions, and single-driver use of HOV lanes as incentives.
>
> Moreover, the hybrids being sold by Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Ford, and, soon,
> Chevrolet are all reasonably priced. Example: The hot-selling Toyota
> Prius-with a three-month waiting list in most markets-can be purchased for
> under $22,000 loaded (although most experts estimate that Toyota is taking
> a $2000 hit on each sale). The Pious-oops-Prius costs about $5000 more to
> manufacture than a conventional Corolla and retails for about three-grand
> extra.
>
> Now let's jump ugly about the whole situation and talk a little reality.
> The guys at Edmunds.com, who run hard numbers about the car business as
> well as anyone, estimate that a Prius owner would have to drive at least
> 66,500 miles annually for five straight years, or gasoline would have to
> soar to 10 bucks a gallon, to equal the cost of operating a cheaper,
> conventional Corolla.
>
> Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride
> juice boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much,
> according to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years
> or 100,000 miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and
> Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.
>
> Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will
> they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will
> the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as
> they age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be
> answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your
> flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power
> with age.
>
> And now comes word that the computer brain inside the gas-electric grids
> in some Priuses is tending to go nuts. This causes instant blackout
> stalling at either 35 mph or 65 mph-the latter possibly in the fast lane
> of an interstate where 50-ton semis running 90 mph can crush compacts like
> beer cans.
>
> This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid
> batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These
> are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact
> self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these
> poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be
> considered, much less resolved.
>
> And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on
> the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have
> announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such
> vehicles, openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.
>
> As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly
> realized that the national power grid could not energize millions of
> vehicles without massive expansion of horrors-nuclear generation-the dark
> side of the hybrid miracle is now beginning to surface.
>
>
> Says a dealer friend whose immense franchise network includes several
> brands offering hybrids: "There is no advantage to owning a hybrid in
> terms of fuel mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in.
> Period. Do the math. This is a feel-good purchase. Hybrids are a statement
> about the environment, and they simply do not square with economic
> reality.
>
> "The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda
> Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look
> like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an
> iconic status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."
>
> Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost, reliability,
> and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding performance and
> disposability, we're going to be driving conventional
> internal-combustion-powered vehicles-either gas or diesel -until rogue
> asteroids clean us all out.
>
>
>
>
>
Mike Hunter
LOL
mike
"Ken Weitzel" <kwei...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Cgwhf.607144$1i.367415@pd7tw2no...
Bill Putney
> If one is foolish enough to put 4 AA nimh's in their pocket while
> bike riding with their grand daughter, they can burn their leg
> terribly painfully, leaving a bad scar :(
>
> Don't ask me how I know that, eh? :)
To paraphrase Mae West: "Is that a pair of C-cells in your pocket or are
you just happy to see me?"
Bill Putney
> Would the pull cord be long enough to start the motor from inside the car?
> LOL
>
> mike
Heh heh! I don't know if the big diesel manufacturers still do this,
but when I was a kid, I remember being told (probably by my dad) that
the Caterpillar scraper engines used small gasoline engines (with their
own electric starter of course) to start the main engine. Not sure if
the starter engines were one lungers or something bigger. I think also,
in some large engines, electric motors spin up a flywheel to start a
larger main engine (some WWII aircraft engines sound as if they use such
a system).
Theoretically you could probably transfer the total energy of a few C-
or D- cells into such a flywheel system (or a large capacitor for that
matter) over a minute or two - use them once, then throw them away. Not
sure if a handful of AA's have the total energy necessary. "Give me a
big enough lever and i can move the earth." :)
Mark Olson
> Mike Hunter wrote:
>
>> Would the pull cord be long enough to start the motor from inside the car?
>> LOL
>>
>> mike
>
> Heh heh! I don't know if the big diesel manufacturers still do this,
> but when I was a kid, I remember being told (probably by my dad) that
> the Caterpillar scraper engines used small gasoline engines (with their
> own electric starter of course) to start the main engine. Not sure if
> the starter engines were one lungers or something bigger. I think also,
> in some large engines, electric motors spin up a flywheel to start a
> larger main engine (some WWII aircraft engines sound as if they use such
> a system).
>
> Theoretically you could probably transfer the total energy of a few C-
> or D- cells into such a flywheel system (or a large capacitor for that
> matter) over a minute or two - use them once, then throw them away. Not
> sure if a handful of AA's have the total energy necessary. "Give me a
> big enough lever and i can move the earth." :)
Google for "Coffman Cartridge"
Mike Hunter
mike
"Mark Olson" <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote in message
news:11oeeto...@corp.supernews.com...
Dave
I recently saw a print article about this topic, not sure if this is
the full thing, but quite interesting to me.
http://www.sdreader.com/php/cover.php?mode=article&showpg=1&id=20051020
"The chassis that's sitting in a workroom on the campus of San Diego
State University is painted a shade of red you'd expect to see on the
lips of an attention-starved woman. On a car, the color conjures up
speed, sass, and power. But this car's looks are deceptive. Although
it can blast from a standstill to 60 miles per hour in less than five
seconds, a single gallon of fuel can propel the vehicle 80 miles. The
engine is augmented by a battery-powered motor, which can be recharged
by plugging a cord into an ordinary wall socket. And the engine fuel?
You can run it on diesel if that's convenient. But soybean oil works
just as well."
"San Diego State University Professor Jim Burns says people have asked
him where they could buy a car like this. "Nowhere," he has to say.
When Burns and his team of engineering students designed and built the
car -- which they called the "Enigma" -- they weren't trying to develop
a commercial product. Instead they wanted to prove that it was possible
to make an automobile that used no fossil fuels, got phenomenal
mileage, and looked and performed like a race car. Four years later,
Burns and a new team of students are attempting to transform
Chevrolet's Equinox into the kind of SUV even an environmentalist could
love. Their work is part of the Challenge X competition, which is being
cosponsored by General Motors and the Department of Energy. Theirs is
one of 17 teams, and hardly among the front-runners."
The team's site is at:
http://www.engineering.sdsu.edu/~hev/index.htm
Dave
Bill Putney
stuff"? Don't bother me with details. :)
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney
> ...You two could drive old people to fornicate!
That seems kind of weird, but if our discussion helped you fire up the
ol' "number one spark plug" again, then glad we could help. The
centerfolds aren't working for you anymore? :)
Ted Mittelstaedt
> Ken Weitzel wrote:
>
> > If one is foolish enough to put 4 AA nimh's in their pocket while
> > bike riding with their grand daughter, they can burn their leg
> > terribly painfully, leaving a bad scar :(
> >
> > Don't ask me how I know that, eh? :)
>
> To paraphrase Mae West: "Is that a pair of C-cells in your pocket or are
> you just happy to see me?"
>
She electrified him.
Ted
Spam Hater
Whoever <nob...@devnull.none> wrote:
> A group of researchers built an interesting mod to a Prius (or some other
> hybrid). They added more batteries - but not enough for a long range --
> and a charger.
>
> The result was a vehicle that could cope with a short commute using energy
> from the overnight charge, while long distances could also be achieved
> through the gas engine. The overall fuel economy (and vehicle cost) was
> significantly greater than that of the original hybrid, while the range
> was grater than that of a 100% battery vehicle.
Good idea.
Including the cost of electricity to charge it?
Ript
> What will you use for a fulcrum? ;)
>
> mike
>
the moon of course :)
gos...@gmail.com
Those who have not started making hybrids are out in the cold
Fuel cells in combination with something else is the future
Brian
Brian
model.
gos...@gmail.com
I guess all the major car companies have at least one for you to try
out
Lets say ordinary petrol/diesel cars have a lifespan of 10 years with
all their moving parts
The fuel cell cars have a lot less moving parts and theoretically they
could last for decades
We are then talking about comfort and usability of the cars
You do not take ordinary car and turn it into a fuel cell car
Because we are in fact talking about a revolution, there is hardly any
experince with these cars yet
Even if the numbers are marginal at the moment in a few years they will
be taking over from the others
There is not much production capacity for these cars yet
It is changing dramatically and fast
All the infrastructures for energydistribution needs to be built up and
it will
The need for oil will eventually drop
Fuel cells can be used for heating up houses and in your cell phones
Nuclear plants will be built to generate electricity
There is a lot riding on this new technology
We may not need to pay terrorists for the energy in the future