GM Gives Up on the Minivan Market
John Horner
I guess this is another segment that Detroit is handing over to Asia on
a platter. Ford is also said to be giving up on trying to build a
competitive minivan. I guess that leaves the Germans, the Japanese and
the Koreans in the segment.
Have you ever noticed that when a segment stops growing, the US makers
abandon it, yet Toyota & Honda keep going at it?
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061122/gm_minivans.html?.v=2
John
Mike Hunter
downhill slide for several years. Chrysler dominates the segment, nobody
else even come close. Crossovers and AWD cars are the current rage. That
is where Ford is putting their limited funds at the moment, with four AWD
cars on the market today, two more coming in 2008 like the MKT, the new
Towncar replacement. F.M.C. has two crossovers coming to market as we speak
and another in 2008. The only Japanese contender, in the medium priced AWD
car and crossover market, is Subaru and they are in the bottom end of that
market.
mike hunt
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nW49h.8022$oP6.6276@trnddc03...
>
> I guess this is another segment that Detroit is handing over to Asia on a
> platter. Ford is also said to be giving up on trying to build a
> competitive minivan. I guess that leaves the Germans, the Japanese and
> the Koreans in the segment.
>
> Have you ever noticed that when a segment stops growing, the US makers
> abandon it, yet Toyota & Honda keep going at it?
>
> > John
John Horner
> Ford is in the lead in that regard. Minivan sales have been in a continuing
> downhill slide for several years. Chrysler dominates the segment, nobody
> else even come close. Crossovers and AWD cars are the current rage. That
> is where Ford is putting their limited funds at the moment, with four AWD
> cars on the market today, two more coming in 2008 like the MKT, the new
> Towncar replacement. F.M.C. has two crossovers coming to market as we speak
> and another in 2008. The only Japanese contender, in the medium priced AWD
> car and crossover market, is Subaru and they are in the bottom end of that
> market.
>
Which is my point. Ford and GM chase the fad of the moment and abandon
established markets. Then when the fad shifts, they will once again be
caught with their pants down. GM gave up on the sport coupe market when
it was declining and killed the Camaro/Firebird. Now they are
scrambling to get back in that game.
Ford replacing the Town Car, gee, do you think it might be time???? Nah,
give it a few more decades. At least they are giving the replacement a
snappy marketing name :(.
John
Dave
Don't forget Chrysler which started the segment and is STILL the leader.
Hickabob McCrane
you saw a man driving a mini van??
<RJ>
wrote:
>Ford is in the lead in that regard. Minivan sales have been in a continuing
>downhill slide for several years. Chrysler dominates the segment, nobody
>else even come close. Crossovers and AWD cars are the current rage. That
>is where Ford is putting their limited funds at the moment, with four AWD
>cars on the market today, two more coming in 2008 like the MKT, the new
>Towncar replacement. F.M.C. has two crossovers coming to market as we speak
>and another in 2008. The only Japanese contender, in the medium priced AWD
>car and crossover market, is Subaru and they are in the bottom end of that
>market.
>
>
>mike hunt
>
The original Plymouth minivan was a perfect market fit.
Detroit then "improved" it by making minivans
that looked like beached whales.
<rj>
80 Knight
news:12ma45i...@corp.supernews.com...
> Thank god...mini vans suck and are for woman anyway, when was the last
> time
> you saw a man driving a mini van??
Many men drive mini van's. If you think they are 'only for women' then you
are as much as a dipshit as Horner.
grappletech
> Thank god...mini vans suck and are for woman anyway, when was the last
> time you saw a man driving a mini van??
Minivans are great. I keep most of the seats out of mine. I leave the 2
middle captain's chairs in for occasional passengers. I leave them folded
forward and locked, leaving tons of cargo space in the back to haul cargo
for my business. Also, great for camping. You can get a double size
mattress back there.The other 2 seats that came with the Sedona minivan I
have are in the garage and are occasioanlly used for seating. They have
wheels on them and are very comfy.
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Just Facts
John Horner <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Of course DCs Chrysler are still the market leader here, but they are
now a foreign manufacturer aren't they.
Chrysler keeps improving their mini van so frequently the slugs at GM
and Ford can't begin to keep up.
Much like Apple is doing with the iPod.
Mike Marlow
> a platter. Ford is also said to be giving up on trying to build a
> competitive minivan. I guess that leaves the Germans, the Japanese and
> the Koreans in the segment.
>
> Have you ever noticed that when a segment stops growing, the US makers
> abandon it, yet Toyota & Honda keep going at it?
>
You are a piece of work John. When the automakers continue to do something
as they always have, seemingly ignorant of market trends, you babble on
about how out of touch they are and how that's the reason for the imports
taking market share. Then... when they respond to market trends you babble
about them abandoning platforms that are losing ground. Someone made a
mistake in the past by suggesting to you that you would make a good
critic... or in not pointing out that you don't.
BTW - this is a GM group - post this to a Ford group.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net
Mike Hunter
out of the established market that is waning fast. . Can we assume your
degree is not marketing? ;)
mike
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%b69h.3092$JQ.649@trnddc06...
Mike Hunter
Dodge alone outsells all of the import brands combined. When it comes to
minivans most smart buyers think Chrysler / Dodge, just as they go to Ford
for trucks, as the most product for the money.
mike hunt
"Just Facts" <Jf...@intnet.wrld> wrote in message
news:Jfact-B69B50....@news.telus.net...
Scott
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:yYecnS7-Brq...@ptd.net...
> Duh! Ford IS following the market toward AWD car and Crossovers and
> getting out of the established market that is waning fast. . Can we
> assume your degree is not marketing? ;)
>
>
> mike
My money is on animal husbandry or sociology.
Mike Hunter
mike hunt
"Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message
news:12mbip6...@corp.supernews.com...
John Horner
Note I included the Germans. Chrysler is a subsidiary of a German
company now and is no more "American" than Honda USA is.
John
John Horner
> "John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nW49h.8022$oP6.6276@trnddc03...
>> I guess this is another segment that Detroit is handing over to Asia on
>> a platter. Ford is also said to be giving up on trying to build a
>> competitive minivan. I guess that leaves the Germans, the Japanese and
>> the Koreans in the segment.
>>
>> Have you ever noticed that when a segment stops growing, the US makers
>> abandon it, yet Toyota & Honda keep going at it?
>>
>
> You are a piece of work John. When the automakers continue to do something
> as they always have, seemingly ignorant of market trends, you babble on
> about how out of touch they are and how that's the reason for the imports
> taking market share.
Care to document your attack Mike?
Minivans are going to continue to be sold, just now it is going to be
the Germans and Asians doing the selling.
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some usenet posters resort to ad
hominem attacks.
However, it is a fact that Ford and GM do not refresh their vehicle
designs as often as Toyota and Honda do. It is a fact that both US
companies are completely dependent upon their truck businesses to keep
the doors open and have lost an increasingly large share of the car
market. GM and Ford do not have their acts together as businesses.
Giving up on the minivan market and rolling the dice on their next
generation SUVs is just more of the same.
Tell me this. Why can't the largest automobile company in the world
field a range of no apologies vehicles in every segment which has global
sales of over 500,000 units per year and refresh those designs every 4-6
years? If the #2 maker in the world can do so (Toyota), why can't #1?
Toyota consistently recognizes weak spots in it's product portfolio and
invests like crazy until they earn a major spot in the game. For years
Toyota had almost there minivans, and they kept at it until they now
produce one of the very best. Toyota's large pickup trucks have missed
the boat several times, and now they have spent over $1B to build a new
US factory and tool up a new design to give it another go. Relentless
persistence is obviously part of the Toyota management DNA. GM and
Ford flip-flop worse than a recent Democratic Presidential Candidate.
How can anyone make excuses for the way GM has botched it's
participation in the minivan market and now it's complete retreat? Part
of the reason that the minivan market has been shrinking is that GM and
Ford have put such lackluster efforts into it. The last redesigns of
the GM and Ford vans were the worst kind of on the cheap half-baked
efforts we have seen in the minivan market. The GM nose jobs are
especially hideous.
John
John Horner
> Thank god...mini vans suck and are for woman anyway, when was the last time
> you saw a man driving a mini van??
>
>
Hmmm, more new college graduates today are female than are male. Women
control the majority of retail purchases as well.
Your premise that men don't drive minivans is incorrect:
"The typical minivan or sport utility purchaser is most often a fairly
affluent married couple in their 40's with children. And while minivans
are sometimes labeled ''mom-mobiles,'' the principal drivers of
minivans, like sport utility vehicles, are actually a little more likely
to be men than women."
However, even if it were only women who drove minivans, what would the
point be? Is it that GM is the company for poorly educated macho men?
Women who want to buy a new vehicle are request to please stay away
from their local Chevrolet dealer?
John
hls
> Hmmm, more new college graduates today are female than are male. Women
> control the majority of retail purchases as well.
Yep, and they have at least half the money and all the p***y
1st Lt. Hanley
"80 Knight" <80_knight...@rogers.com - Remove SPMASUCKS To Reply>
wrote in message news:6PydnVEwj8Ogh_jY...@giganews.com...
1st Lt. Hanley
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:I4n9h.9548$yE6....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
the back seat.
80 Knight
news:12mbvrp...@corp.supernews.com...
I disagree. They can be very helpful with men with kids, or men with lots of
business stuff to carry around.
Mike Hunter
federal corporate income tax laws on the profits earned in the US. The
Japanese companies operating within the US are just that, wholly owned sales
companies and not subject to US tax laws. Japanese companies operating in
the US do not pay federal corporate income taxes on the millions in profits,
earned in the US on the cars sold or assembled in the US. Japanese
corporations do not have that tax advantage in Europe. That is one reason
Japanese cars do not sell as well in Europe.
mike
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ssm9h.7028$Uz.6146@trnddc05...
Mike Hunter
expand their market then the Japanese follow suit. Most of the expansion of
the market for Japanese vehicles, over the past ten years, has not been in
cars but rather in markets developed by the domestics, minivan, light
trucks, SUVs, crossovers etc. and they did it by copying what the domestics
have developed. Most of the vehicle the Japanese sell around the world are
far different than what sells best for them in the US.
Whether you like it or not both GM and Ford outsell any Japanese manufacture
in the US because more American prefer the vehicles they have to offer
;)
mike hunt
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qHm9h.7029$Uz.5097@trnddc05...
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
> Tell me this. Why can't the largest automobile company in the world field
> a range of no apologies vehicles in every segment which has global sales
> of over 500,000 units per year and refresh those designs every 4-6 years?
> If the #2 maker in the world can do so (Toyota), why can't #1?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
Mike Hunter
video tape equipment, one can still buy that stuff but the market is going
digital. LOL
mike
"John Horner" <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5Tm9h.7030$Uz.3579@trnddc05...
> Hickabob McCrane wrote:
> "The typical minivan or sport utility purchaser is most often a fairly
> affluent married couple in their 40's with children. And while minivans
> are sometimes labeled ''mom-mobiles,'' the principal drivers of minivans,
> like sport utility vehicles, are actually a little more likely to be men
> than women."
> John
Dave
> You are living in the past it seems. Minivan are like film cameras and
> video tape equipment, one can still buy that stuff but the market is going
> digital. LOL
>
>
> mike
I would disagree with you on this. Station wagons are making a comeback
since they are so practical. They were dumped for their image for
minivans. Minivans are slowing down for their image and sport-utes
arose. Sport-utes are fading in favor of cross-overs. Just cycles. Their
is still money to be made selling minivans. They are here to stay.
Some O
wrote:
> I would disagree with you on this. Station wagons are making a comeback
> since they are so practical. They were dumped for their image for
> minivans. Minivans are slowing down for their image and sport-utes
> arose. Sport-utes are fading in favor of cross-overs. Just cycles. Their
> is still money to be made selling minivans. They are here to stay.
My current car desire is for a Sebring sized station wagon.
Since the Big 2.5 don't produce one, "imports" such as the Subaru have
to be on my short list.
Just Facts
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote:
> Duh! Ford IS following the market toward AWD car and Crossovers and getting
> out of the established market that is waning fast. . Can we assume your
> degree is not marketing? ;)
FOLLOWING is the word Mike.
Subaru is having a chuckle I'm sure.
Some O
John Horner <jtho...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Note I included the Germans. Chrysler is a subsidiary of a German
> company now and is no more "American" than Honda USA is.
Ah yes, you are thinking clearly.
Just Facts
"Mike Hunter" <mike...@mailcity.com> wrote:
> You have it backwards. GM, Ford and Chrysler developed new vehicles to
> expand their market then the Japanese follow suit. Most of the expansion of
> the market for Japanese vehicles, over the past ten years, has not been in
> cars but rather in markets developed by the domestics, minivan, light
> trucks, SUVs, crossovers etc. and they did it by copying what the domestics
> have developed. Most of the vehicle the Japanese sell around the world are
> far different than what sells best for them in the US.
So the Japanese recognize the market and sell to it. Good for them.
However they haven't followed everything the Big 2.5 have tried to push
on us, such as the Chryslers 300s that are now filling up dealers lots.
Then we have the Big 2.5 not keeping up with significant engine
developments such as VVT and Hybrids. They are many years behind the
Japanese there and are now having to buy these technologies from the
Japanese companies.
Mike Hunter
mike
"Dave" <dave...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:9RF9h.9860$a_2.9606@trnddc01...
Mike Hunter
mike
"Just Facts" <Jf...@intnet.wrld> wrote in message
news:Jfact-D05A5A....@news.telus.net...
Mike Hunter
"Just Facts" <Jf...@intnet.wrld> wrote in message
<RJ>
wrote:
>Buyers once bought hatchback models, as well ;)
>
>mike
>
Buyers didn't stop wanting hatchbacks. ( a useful configuration )
Detroit stopped selling them !
<rj>
Edwin Pawlowski
An artilce in the Hartford Courant this morning says according to Edmunds
Magazine the Honda Oddesy and Kia Sedona rank better than the Chrysler.
Mike Hunter
selling? ;)
Mike
"<RJ>" <bara...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:uekgm29f8vc56ccg8...@4ax.com...
Mike Hunter
buyers believe, are the sales numbers. Chrysler sell more in few months
than they sell in a year. Obviously that is the most accurate 'opinion,' of
which is ranked better. ;)
mike
"Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:atY9h.9670$6t....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
James Goforth
good gas mileage, have good power -- and I could stack 4' X 8' sheets of
plywood between the wheelwells and get the rear hatch door shut --
while my Dakota pickup (longbox) didn't have 4' between ITS wheelwells,
nor the length required!
Also, as other posters said, excellent for camping, firewood,
equipment, etc.
From a practical standpoint, my Caravan c/v (cargo) was probably one
of my favorite vehicles I've ever had.
jcr
trips carrying a lot of gear! and average over 20MPG driving "around
town". Crossovers are too small to carry a sheet of plywood or drywall.
You need a larger SUV to do that...then you're in the 16MPG gas
mileage range. No thanks!
Eugene
I thought that once. Then we bought a minivan and got 15mpg around town,
had to remove seats and store them somewhere to haul anything. Visiting my
parents in the mountains of WV would eat up our brakes so I ended up
needing to replace brake pads and rotors once a year. Being front wheel
drive based it required regular alignments to keep from ruining tires.
I bought a full size extended cab 4x4 truck and get better gas milage and
don't have to do any maintenance but change the oil and can still carry the
same amount of people but don't have to remove any seats to carry cargo.
jcr
Something was wrong with the mini-van you drove. I've been driving them
for over 20 years now. Brakes last me on average 40K-45K miles, I've
done maybe 2-3 alignments over those 20 years with tires lasting 60K
miles or better (I had one set of Michelin's last over 80K miles). My
current 97 Grand Caravan with the 3.3 V6 has _averaged_ 21MPG mixed
driving over the past 3 years (I log mileage from every fill-up) with
the *worst* tank at just over 17MPG and the best tank at slightly over
28MPG. Some of the miles were spent in western Maryland and
Pennsylvania (mountainous). The only ting I share experience with you
is the issue with removing the seats. However, some of the new models
have solved that issue with under-the-floor seat storage. I did own a
truck in there as well. It was nice with plenty of utility, but *much*
more expensive to operate and maintain and far less comfortable on trips.
Eugene
Ours was the AWD version which cut the milage down some and the mountains
were back roads in WV.
We replaced it with a 2001 Impala and I just changed the brakes and rotors
for the first time at 75K.
jcr
Ah, AWD will take a hit in gas mileage. Still, the brake service
interval you experiences seems very odd to me.
I hear the Impala with the 3.8 engine pulls better real-world gas
mileage than one with the 3.4 engine.
Eugene
The main problem is the chrysler transmission won't let you downshift on
long downhill grades, you shift down out of overdrive and eventually it
goes back in so you have to ride the brakes.
80 Knight
news:V7ednQ2ukPAmF_LY...@comcast.com...
> Eugene wrote:
>> jcr wrote:
<snip>
> I hear the Impala with the 3.8 engine pulls better real-world gas mileage
> than one with the 3.4 engine.
The 3.8 engines are incredible, IMHO. My '96 Bonnie with the supercharged
version of the 3800 Series II, get's better gas mileage then my sister's
3400.
Grappletech
> The main problem is the chrysler transmission won't let you downshift
> on long downhill grades, you shift down out of overdrive and
> eventually it goes back in so you have to ride the brakes.
Wow, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Is there a wire you could snip?
Probably not, it's probably programmed into the computer that controls the
tranny. I'd rather ruin a tranny than overheat the brakes and plunge off a
cliff. But a good tranny should allow downshifting with no damage, and not
too much more wear on the tranny.
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Eugene
>
>> The main problem is the chrysler transmission won't let you downshift
>> on long downhill grades, you shift down out of overdrive and
>> eventually it goes back in so you have to ride the brakes.
>
>
>
> Wow, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Is there a wire you could snip?
> Probably not, it's probably programmed into the computer that controls the
> tranny. I'd rather ruin a tranny than overheat the brakes and plunge off
> a
> cliff. But a good tranny should allow downshifting with no damage, and
> not too much more wear on the tranny.
>
Its not that it wouldn't allow downshifting, you could downshift but it
would eventually ignore the selector and upshift. The first trip with that
van when we got into town after going down that mountain I had to stand
both feet on the brake pedal to get it to stop. Checked with the dealer
later and it was even documented in the manual that this is a feature.
That wasn't the only problem, the AWD made by AUDI was slow to engage so you
would get front wheel slip, then the back end would engage and if you
hadn't let off the gas by then the back wheels would start pushing and
front end having already broke traction would slide sideways. Then
sometimes when you would be backing out of a driveway or parking space the
AWD would bind up and release with a bang, I thought I backed into
something the first time. Then the electrical parts that were
subcontracted out to Mitsubishi were so cheap the engine would just shut
off while driving down the road. I paid a lot of $ trying to get that
fixed both in warranty deductable and after the warranty ran out. I
finally found it cheaper to just swap parts myself and it ended up being
bad connectors for the crank and cam sensors. If you were to take a look
at them you see that they don't have the normal rubber seal around the
outside of the connectors so they would get a bit of water inside and it
would cause the resistance of the pins to go up. I kept a can of WD40 to
spray in when if would quit and not want to start and would put in a little
dielectric grease every so often trying to keep the water out. There were
other problems but I've written enough.
The basic minivan design isn't all that great, you take a front wheel drive
car and stretch it out adding more weight high up. Everyone makes a big
deal about SUV's rolling over but since traditional SUV's have a frame and
more parts to the drivetrain down low their CG is lower than a minivan so
they are actually not as bad as the media made them out to be. The minivan
was very top heavy with too soft of suspension, I had to drive real slow
around curves because it would lean over a lot. On PA highways where they
cut the expansion joints all the way through and then the concrete sections
shift a little bit you get that constant bump bump, bump, bump, the minivan
wold make us seasick if we tried to drive 65 as it would start rocking back
and forth with the shifting of the highway sections.