GM 3800 series II
James Goforth
Paul
> What is the difference between the GM 3800 and the 3800 Series II?
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
Paul
George Orwell
The Series II is prone to coolant leakage and sometimes catatrosphic
failure of its composite plastic intake manifold, initiating roadside
stopages and/or huge repair bills, often exceeding the value of the whole
automobile. GM knows about this deficiency, refuses to make good on it by
replacement with an alloy manifold (at their cost or the owner's) and for
this reason alone deserves to be ignored when shopping for a new or used
car.
I own one and the manifold seeps. It cannot be tightened down due to
blocked fastener access. Tightening may not even remedy the seepage and
certainly will not prevent eventual perforation and failure as described
above. People, even knowledgeable ones buy complicated products with the
assumption that they were competently engineered. GM products never were:
28-52 Chevies had babbit rod bearings, lubricated by dippers, prone to melt
out
V-8s had erosion-prone valve seats and warp-prone exhaust valves. All it
took was one, short maximum speed drive.
Dual fluid coupling Hydramatics would stop shifting after one 110 mph run.
51 & 52 Powerglides would fracture their reverse band struts in normal use
and blow out their torque converter o-rings with immediate loss of all
transmission fluid without warning
Loose worm & roller sector steering gears
The list is endless.
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HLS
"Rick_LT1" <see_si...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>
> Toyotas are also known for sludging up into a mess quite a lot.
>
Not quite a true statement.
80 Knight
news:agl6m.8876$8r....@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Rick_LT1" <see_si...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>>
>> Toyotas are also known for sludging up into a mess quite a lot.
>>
>
> Not quite a true statement.
HLS are you going senile? Rick is an idiot, but for once he made a
completely true statement. You should know this from the thread about it in
this very group last year.
HLS
"80 Knight" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message
news:c6GdndhvMsToccTX...@giganews.com...
We all know that Toyota had a run of engines that were prone to sludging.
Toyota is NOT "known for sludging up into a mess quite a lot".
It happened, it passed, is not a continuing phenomenon.
C'mon, Knight.
Vic Smith
<nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
>I'm glad you asked this question.
>
>The Series II is prone to coolant leakage and sometimes catatrosphic
>failure of its composite plastic intake manifold, initiating roadside
>stopages and/or huge repair bills, often exceeding the value of the whole
>automobile.
There is an improved lower manifold gasket and an improved upper
plenum that can eliminate this problem.
You can do the job yourself for less than 200 bucks in a few hours.
Though the chance is low for the problem to happen, nobody needs that.
I'm not defending GM for the initial bad engineering, but if you're
handy around cars it's not a big deal.
My kid is going to replace what I mentioned above as a preventative
measure on his '95 Bonneville. He loves the car.
But he can do most of this stuff with one hand.
--Vic
HLS
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> There is an improved lower manifold gasket and an improved upper
> plenum that can eliminate this problem.
> You can do the job yourself for less than 200 bucks in a few hours.
> Though the chance is low for the problem to happen, nobody needs that.
> I'm not defending GM for the initial bad engineering, but if you're
> handy around cars it's not a big deal.
The plenum WILL decompose, given time. There is a new and improved
plenum but it is probably more like $250.
GM screwed around with this for approximately 10 years, and never improved
the breed. And they dodged the responsibility. A class action suit was
initiated,
and GM begrudgingly offered some pennies on the dollar for repairs..
Vic Smith
>
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> There is an improved lower manifold gasket and an improved upper
>> plenum that can eliminate this problem.
>> You can do the job yourself for less than 200 bucks in a few hours.
>> Though the chance is low for the problem to happen, nobody needs that.
>> I'm not defending GM for the initial bad engineering, but if you're
>> handy around cars it's not a big deal.
>
>The plenum WILL decompose, given time. There is a new and improved
>plenum but it is probably more like $250.
>
My feeling is just do it. Why worry about it?
I'm finding the parts for my kid. New in box aftermarket Dorman
plenums - with all upper gaskets - can be had for < 80 bucks on eBay.
Dorman plenums get good marks from what I've read on the forums.
The LIM improved gasket - Felpro - is 20 bucks.
OEM injector o-ring kit is 32 bucks.
It'll be less than $200 even including shipping and tax.
>GM screwed around with this for approximately 10 years, and never improved
>the breed. And they dodged the responsibility. A class action suit was
>initiated,
>and GM begrudgingly offered some pennies on the dollar for repairs..
One of the reasons they went bankrupt.
And they did actually improve the plenums, but piecemeal from what I
gathered. Started in '99 I think.
Can't remember if they started with Buicks or Pontiacs. But they were
much later in improving the LIM gasket, another weak point.
But that's neither here nor there if you own one of the cars.
The kid wants me to take his '95 Bonneville on my long mile vacation
trip, because it's in better shape and has quite a few miles less than
my 3.1 Lumina. I told him unless he does the plenum/LIM gasket I'll
feel better in the Lumina.
Just pushing him to do it, really. I'm taking the Lumina.
--Vic
80 Knight
It happened for many, many years, and Toyota did everything they could to
avoid it, and never did admit to the problem, always blaming it on the
customer. Why do you defend Toyota for that, while you constantly complain
about GM's intake problem? At least GM finally admitted to the problem,
and started offering rebates.
HLS
> I'm finding the parts for my kid. New in box aftermarket Dorman
> plenums - with all upper gaskets - can be had for < 80 bucks on eBay.
> Dorman plenums get good marks from what I've read on the forums.
AFAIK, the Dorman plenum works fine.. They were going for about $200-250
here, from NAPA. If you can get them so cheaply from EBAY, and know
that they are real, good on ya.
HLS
"80 Knight" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message news:V9udnXOzTt0-
>> C'mon, Knight.
>
> It happened for many, many years, and Toyota did everything they could to
> avoid it, and never did admit to the problem, always blaming it on the
> customer. Why do you defend Toyota for that, while you constantly
> complain about GM's intake problem? At least GM finally admitted to the
> problem, and started offering rebates.
Toyota was very good about fixing or replacing those engines, AND solving
the problem. GM farted around for about ten years and did little or nothing.
GM dodged repairs, and when they did, under formation of a class action
suit, they offered pennies.
The two policies were clearly different. GM cannot be lauded or even
forgiven
for their way of handling things.
Vic Smith
Correcting/updating my last post.
Price is probably dropping as the engine dies outs.
The eBay Dormans were about 60 bucks with shipping, but one was open
box and the other won't end for a while, so who knows.
Ordered it new from Amazon for 61 and change, free shipping.
According to reviewers there, it includes injector o-rings.
GM has the best LIM gasket, which runs about 60 bucks retail.
It's aluminum framed. The Felpro "improved" is still plastic framed.
Most mechs and GM parts counter folks will tell you have to use
the plastic framed original LIM gasket on the '95-'96.
Not true. Starting in '97 GM widened the head lips at the ends to
accommodate LIM gasket retainer pins. Holes in the widened lips for
the new gasket pins.
But you can use pinned aluminum frame gasket for the '95-'96. The
pins just hang over the edge of the thinner lip.
This is all from the Bonneville forum, a great group.
Now I understand why many are pissed about Pontiac going away.
Some real Pontiac fans there, even with GM's bullshit.
Seems that original LIM gasket is as much a problem as the upper
plenum, especially if you had Dexcool in there.
For me, none of GM's missteps have been a problem, since I buy used,
and already know the problem areas. Always avoided their worse stuff,
and fixing problem areas is nothing since I wrench myself.
Considering that GM used stuff is cheap as dirt compared to others
it's worked very well for me.
But damn if I wouldn't think 3 times before I bought a new GM car.
Hope they get their act together enough to stay in business, so I'll
have a future supply of cheap cars.
Even if they're basically excellent, they'll still be cheap used since
the perception of bad quality will remain.
Hard to unring a bell.
--Vic
HLS
> Hope they get their act together enough to stay in business, so I'll
> have a future supply of cheap cars.
> Even if they're basically excellent, they'll still be cheap used since
> the perception of bad quality will remain.
> Hard to unring a bell.
>
> --Vic
Yes, it is hard to unring a bell.. It is not hard to keep customer loyalty,
much harder to regain it.
80 Knight
Sorry HLS, I can't agree with you. For starters, everything I read, and
everyone I talked too had a lot of problems getting Toyota to even admit
there was a mistake, let alone help them out. The last article I read about
it stated that Toyota still blames the condition on the consumer, and does
very little about it. GM may have take quite a few years to admit to the
problem, but they did. You seem to have different standards for GM then you
do Toyota, and that's fine. You sound like a typical Toyota customer
(though, I know you are a new one), and I hope you enjoy your new product,
but when two companies do the same thing, it isn't really fair to judge one
bad, one good.
HLS
>> forgiven
>> for their way of handling things.
>
> Sorry HLS, I can't agree with you. For starters, everything I read, and
> everyone I talked too had a lot of problems getting Toyota to even admit
> there was a mistake, let alone help them out. The last article I read
> about it stated that Toyota still blames the condition on the consumer,
> and does very little about it. GM may have take quite a few years to
> admit to the problem, but they did. You seem to have different standards
> for GM then you do Toyota, and that's fine. You sound like a typical
> Toyota customer (though, I know you are a new one), and I hope you enjoy
> your new product, but when two companies do the same thing, it isn't
> really fair to judge one bad, one good.
I studied this a lot before we bought our first Toyota. From everything I
read, and from the people I talked with, Toyota did publicly express the
position that most of these sludging failures were due to failure to
maintain,
but that even in those cases they stood behind the customer. The problem
is, AFAIK, solved.
It was my impression that this problem sometimes manifested itself during
a particular run of engines, built over a year or 18 months. Now, it has
been a long time since I researched this, and would not bet the cow on this
information.
True or false, I dont know because I have not had this problem.
Another little problem that Toyota had was when they switched from the
Aisin 5 speed transmission to the newer non-Aisin box. Some cars and
drivers hated that tranny because of its odd and unsettling shift habits.
On that one, Toyota rather quickly resolved the problem on affected
trannies. (I dont believe this was a major issue.. Maybe solved by a
reprogramming or somesuch...)
I have been through the GM debacle. There is little you can teach me about
their product stewardship. And it stinks. Been there, done that, over too
many
years, too many models, too many "built-in defects".
Maybe ToyotaMDT in MO can comment on these points.
80 Knight
The real question is, if you had a problem with your new Toyota similar in
severity to the gasket problem you had with your GM, and Toyota did nothing,
would you drop that brand too? By the way I have seen you talk about
Toyota, I doubt it. And I mean no offence by that either.
> Maybe ToyotaMDT in MO can comment on these points.
I have no idea who that person is, but any comments are welcome in a group I
would guess <g>
hls
"80 Knight" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message news:L-
> The real question is, if you had a problem with your new Toyota similar in
> severity to the gasket problem you had with your GM, and Toyota did
> nothing, would you drop that brand too? By the way I have seen you talk
> about Toyota, I doubt it. And I mean no offence by that either.
>
I would denounce any automobile company that behaved as GM did, and would
refuse to buy their products. And that is a fair and honest assessment.
GM problems I have experienced, lest you get hung up on this plenum issue,
include:
Rotting panels under rear windows
Cracked blocks (Iron Puke)
Shoddy alternators (ECS100, etc), doomed to fail
Poorly engineered rear disc brake systems, (piston actuated parking brake)
The well known, doomed to fail early, Metric transmission
The V7 air conditioning compressor, early failure guaranteed
The gasket and coolant problems GM were conspirators to
The failure prone GM HVAC computers, and lets not forget the
shaft leakage prone regular GM compressors
The self destructing aluminum evaporators (earlier GMs)
and now you can add the idiotic plastic plenum.
Contrary to the beliefs of some, I am not a cheerleader for Toyota. I own
two of them however - my first two ever - and they have been spectacular -
so
far.
Time will tell.
I owned many Fords, and none of them had the durability and reliability
problems that my MANY GM's presented, but by the same token they
rode like haywagons.
My last attempt at a Ford was in 1990, when I tried to buy a new
Thunderbird.
I drove 6-7 of them. They bumped, rattled, and shimmied, and the sales
personnel alibied that they probably needed wheel balance, etc.NOT
My sis DID buy one and it had the Ford V6 engine problems that
are similar to the ones GM has had - leaking internals, etc.
I have owned two Italian cars, both Fiats, and one was a POS and the other
was really quite good and reliable..But I wouldnt buy another.
I have had two Passats, both extremely good cars, one AMC Sportabout wagon
(good for old technology), a Dodge van (unbreakable but rough), a SAAB (
pre GM -excellent), a plethora of Ford Mustangs (reliable, but not very
refined in the ride department).
I have probably forgotten a few.
But I have never had such a run of products such as GM, ALL with built in
weaknesses, outright defects, and poor support.
I dont know why I bought them all those years. If they really improve their
product and their attitude, I might buy again, but not for a while.
Vic Smith
>
>"80 Knight" <nos...@thanks.com> wrote in message news:L-
>> The real question is, if you had a problem with your new Toyota similar in
>> severity to the gasket problem you had with your GM, and Toyota did
>> nothing, would you drop that brand too? By the way I have seen you talk
>> about Toyota, I doubt it. And I mean no offence by that either.
>>
>
>I would denounce any automobile company that behaved as GM did, and would
>refuse to buy their products. And that is a fair and honest assessment.
>
>GM problems I have experienced, lest you get hung up on this plenum issue,
>include:
>
We just finished replacing my kid's lower manifold gasket and upper
plenum. The plenum around the stovepipe didn't look bad but I haven't
dug at it with a pick. It may be degraded from heat.
The lower manifold gasket was ready to go.
I think the poor quality lower manifold gasket is a greater sin than
the plenum.
>Rotting panels under rear windows
>Cracked blocks (Iron Puke)
>Shoddy alternators (ECS100, etc), doomed to fail
>Poorly engineered rear disc brake systems, (piston actuated parking brake)
>The well known, doomed to fail early, Metric transmission
>The V7 air conditioning compressor, early failure guaranteed
>The gasket and coolant problems GM were conspirators to
>The failure prone GM HVAC computers, and lets not forget the
> shaft leakage prone regular GM compressors
>The self destructing aluminum evaporators (earlier GMs)
>and now you can add the idiotic plastic plenum.
>
Always avoided those issues, but I've always bought used and
researched first. Only new car - especially GM/Ford due to their
commonly foisting bad engineering on the public - I would consider is
one with a known 4-5 year track record.
But that's me, not the general buying public.
--Vic