On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 04:24:03 GMT, remov...@sonic.net (Timothy J. Lee) wrote:
>In article <dckj00tebolpcqjbkib364bc9h4g7l3...@4ax.com>, >Andy Lee <a...@NOSPAMblueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> Mind you a lot of Americans seen fascinated with this tyre >>rotation thing as well. Seems like a waste of time and money to me >>what possible benefit can changing wheels from front to back have just >>leave em on till they are worn out then replace them.
>If you like having your tires matched, then tire rotation will cause >them to all wear out at about the same time, so you can replace them >with all of the same type of tire (instead of trying to match your >remaining not worn out tires that may no longer be available).
The simple truth is that the tires tend to wear even and so last longer. Many tire stores will rotate and balance tires bought in their store at regular intervals for free. Driving on evenly worn and well balanced tires sure makes the car drive better. As the shop owner of the last place I bought tires said, "be sure and come back every 6,000 miles and let me rotate and balance your tires. They'll last longer, you'll like them more and that will make you buy your next set from me as well".
As the shop owner of the last place I bought tires said, "be sure and come back every 6,000
> miles and let me rotate and balance your tires. They'll last longer, > you'll like them more and that will make you buy your next set from me > as well".
Here in the UK the front tyres on my Focus are down to the legal limit (1.6mm) within 10,000 miles. I wouldn't be going back many times, would I.....!
I guess this is down to the fact that not many roads here are straight for more than half a mile or so. Also, because of much higher traffic densities, there are many more traffic lights, roundabouts and other junctions than in the US. Nipping out smartly into a busy traffic stream must take its toll.
Getting back on topic, before my '99 Focus I owned two other Zetec engined cars. (Both Escorts). These only ever had oil changes at 10,000 miles. Both vehicles ran totally reliably up to 4 years old/80,000 miles. None of them have ever needed a single drop of oil to top up with between changes. I would say these longer intervals between changes are fine unless you regularly do trips less than 3 miles.
In message <3vdgub.eu8...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> wrote
>The best tires should be mounted on the rear of your car.
Surely not on a front wheel drive car? The fact that the front tyres wear faster than the rear suggests that the best tyres should be fitted to the front.
-- Alan mailto:news2me_a_2...@amacleod.clara.co.uk
> Here in the UK the front tyres on my Focus are down to the legal limit > (1.6mm) within 10,000 miles. I wouldn't be going back many times, would > I.....!
You must go like jensen Button- both sets of (4) tyres on my '00 Zetec have lasted 25k!! I dont hang about either.
Alan <junk_new...@amacleod.clara.co.uk> wrote: > In message <3vdgub.eu8...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> wrote
> >The best tires should be mounted on the rear of your car. > Surely not on a front wheel drive car? The fact that the front tyres > wear faster than the rear suggests that the best tyres should be fitted > to the front.
Ever heard of hydroplaning/aquaplaning? If the front wheels get out of control, not a big problem, but if the rear ones do, well you'll be skidding and be hardly able to get it back safely.
It doesn't matter what kind of car, the best tires belong to the rear, unless you live in a desert. You can try that with some small toy car and some tape on the front/rear to simulate no contact.
-- Michael Heiming
Remove +SIGNS and www. if you expect an answer, sorry for inconvenience, but I get tons of SPAM
>> Here in the UK the front tyres on my Focus are down to the legal limit >> (1.6mm) within 10,000 miles. I wouldn't be going back many times, would >> I.....!
>You must go like jensen Button- both sets of (4) tyres on my '00 Zetec have >lasted 25k!! I dont hang about either.
Nah you only think you go fast Tim :-) Seriously mine normally last around 20,000 as well. Chris must really give em some stick!!!
All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
> All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and > less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot > longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you > were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round > but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
Not sure of the validity of your technical terminology Andy, but I agree 100% that tyre rotation makes no sense at all. ;-)
<andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote: >I could see if you >were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round
...and why in the hell would you not want the same make and model all around?
>but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
It looks as trashy on a focus as on any other car. I can't imagine a people noted for their love of motor cars and driving, thinking it's OK to have more than one make and model tire on a car. What's become of all that pride, the stiff upper lip and all that good stuff. Sir Reginald out for a spin in his MG with 2 or 3 different kinds of tires? What's this world coming too?
In article <q72q00dkdllan2apcd7j9gkc4i6d13j...@4ax.com>, Andy Lee <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote:
>All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and >less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot >longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you >were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round >but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
Two things that may be an issue with mismatched tires:
1. With half-worn tires in front and new tires in back (assuming same make and model of tire), the front will grip better in dry conditions, while the back will grip better in wet conditions. Might make for some "interesting" handling characteristics. Different make and model tires may also grip differently.
2. It is possible that if you just keep changing front tires as they wear out (never moving the partially worn tires to the front), the rear tires may deteriorate due to age before you use up all of the tread, so you'll have wasted some of their tread life.
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:45:50 GMT, saynothankyou toSPAM@ ourhouse.com (Freddie The Crook Finder) wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:34:25 +0000, Andy Lee ><andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote:
>>I could see if you >>were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round >...and why in the hell would you not want the same make and model all >around?
Being honest I really couldn't care less what make of tyre is on the wheel so long as it does the job, as for cosmetic purposes if you spend your time worrying what makers trade mark is moulded into the tyrewall then you have way too much time on your hands.
>>but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem >It looks as trashy on a focus as on any other car. I can't imagine a >people noted for their love of motor cars and driving, thinking it's >OK to have more than one make and model tire on a car.
As a keen driver I'm more concerned with a tyres performance going around bends than what it looks like. Do you guys still paint the makers marking with white or gold paint? I'll leave that to the chaps who are more show than go :-)
> What's become >of all that pride, the stiff upper lip and all that good stuff. Sir >Reginald out for a spin in his MG with 2 or 3 different kinds of >tires? What's this world coming too?
You really want to watch those sterotypes old been they will catch you out one day :-)
>> All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and >> less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot >> longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you >> were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round >> but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
>Not sure of the validity of your technical terminology Andy, but I agree >100% that tyre rotation makes no sense at all. ;-)
>Chris
Well it seemed like a good term at the time but maybe not. The comment lower down the thread about the rears perishing before being completely worn out has some validity, but I'm fairly sure no rear tyres I've ever had have ever experienced this problem they usually last around twice as long as the fronts and are never perished when replaced. It could be a problem in countries where exposure to the sun is more of a problem or in cars that have a very low annual mileage rate.
<andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote: >Do you guys still paint the >makers marking with white or gold paint? I'll leave that to the chaps >who are more show than go :-) >You really want to watch those sterotypes old been they will catch you >out one day :-)
Yep, I agree. Tyre rotation for a car you are going to keep really is bollocks. ESPECIALLY, all this bollocks about the best tyres should be on the back!! Who are these morons?
1. Tyre tread is there only to cope with water on the road. 2. Tyre tread is not necessary for acceleration, is the tyres slip while giving it some stick - so what, you know what you are doing. 3. You need very good water removal when breaking and cornering, and its the fronts that do all the braking and cornering. The back wheels just follow, that's why tyres on the back last longer than on the front. 4. And where is all the weight on a car - the front. Ever seen a car sinking in water - always front first. 5. Even on non ABS cars, it is never possible to lock the rear wheels. There is very little braking effect from the rear wheels as they lock up so easily, so why do you need tread?
So, starting with a new set of 4 tyres, I wait until the fronts are 2/3 rds worn at the front, then swap the fronts for the backs. This gives me a few more K miles when I end up with worn out backs, and 1/3 fronts. Then by 2 new fronts, and put the used fronts back on the back. When the backs get down 2mm, I buy 2 new for the fronts, and new the warn fronts to the back.
This is a great way to use the tyres to their fullest amount, while limiting tyre purchase to only 2. Give a try. 4 tyres at a time is too rich for me!
And how do I know when it is time to change the fronts? - When I go round a corner I know well, in the rain, at a particular speed, I can feel the front starting to slide.
And I wonder why UK TDCIs can do 12,500 UK miles before an oil change, and yet USA TDCIs can only do 5000 Km (2500 miles). Must be due to the low cost of oil products. If us in the UK were told to change the oil every 2500 miles, we would say to the car manufacturer 'get knotted' and they wouldn't sell a single car.
Uk costs would be about Ł18-20 for the oil plus Ł30-40 for the change if you paid someone to do it - I guess as I usually do it myself.
You in the USA should do the same thing.
"Andy Lee" <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:45:09 +0000 (UTC), " Tim \(Remove NOSPAM. > Registry corupted, reformated HD and lost alot of stuff :\(" > <the.f...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Here in the UK the front tyres on my Focus are down to the legal limit > >> (1.6mm) within 10,000 miles. I wouldn't be going back many times, would > >> I.....!
> >You must go like jensen Button- both sets of (4) tyres on my '00 Zetec have > >lasted 25k!! I dont hang about either.
> Nah you only think you go fast Tim :-) Seriously mine normally last > around 20,000 as well. Chris must really give em some stick!!!
> All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and > less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot > longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you > were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round > but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
You posting name "blown fuse" is a description that suits you very well.
These people you refer to as "morons" are the tire manufacturers and knowledgeable tire dealers.
If you really knew what you were talking about, instead of bull shitting, you would be also knowledgeable in the latest recommendations from the tire manufacturers.
You put the best tires or the 2 new tires on the back because the back will break free sooner than the front in adverse weather conditions and hard manoeuvres. This applies to both rear wheel drive as well as front drive vehicles .
Tire tread is really necessary for traction and acceleration.
The back wheels do not always follow the front. In snow and really icy conditions, put summer tires on the back and snow tires on the front and you will find out really quick that the fronts do not follow the back. Worn tires on the back will not always follow the front (on a front drive car) under these conditions.
A car sinks front first in water, of course it does its heavier at the front. But a rear engine car in water, will sink rear first, so what's your point.
"Even on non ABS cars, it is never possible to lock the rear wheels. There is very little braking effect from the rear wheels as they lock up so easily, so why do you need tread?'
I do not understand this statement as you first say that rear brakes never lock up and then you say they do.
Yep you should rotate tires so you get even wear. If you do not, you can get cupping and uneven wear especially with cars which have rear independent link suspension. You will also increase the "life" of you tires.
The latest information coming out from testing, is tires might start to have expiry dates on them. It has been found that tires naturally degrade over time due to weathering, ozone exposure and heat, cracks and internal faults develop causing the tread and belts to separate.
But I am sure you will respond to that information with "bollocks"???
Regardless of tires a professional driver (( imo) which you do not appear to be) will always drive and take into account weather conditions.
news:WGBPb.26$v05.8@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net... Yep, I agree. Tyre rotation for a car you are going to keep really is bollocks. ESPECIALLY, all this bollocks about the best tyres should be on the back!! Who are these morons?
1. Tyre tread is there only to cope with water on the road. 2. Tyre tread is not necessary for acceleration, is the tyres slip while giving it some stick - so what, you know what you are doing. 3. You need very good water removal when breaking and cornering, and its the fronts that do all the braking and cornering. The back wheels just follow, that's why tyres on the back last longer than on the front. 4. And where is all the weight on a car - the front. Ever seen a car sinking in water - always front first. 5. Even on non ABS cars, it is never possible to lock the rear wheels. There is very little braking effect from the rear wheels as they lock up so easily, so why do you need tread?
So, starting with a new set of 4 tyres, I wait until the fronts are 2/3 rds worn at the front, then swap the fronts for the backs. This gives me a few more K miles when I end up with worn out backs, and 1/3 fronts. Then by 2 new fronts, and put the used fronts back on the back. When the backs get down 2mm, I buy 2 new for the fronts, and new the warn fronts to the back.
This is a great way to use the tyres to their fullest amount, while limiting tyre purchase to only 2. Give a try. 4 tyres at a time is too rich for me!
And how do I know when it is time to change the fronts? - When I go round a corner I know well, in the rain, at a particular speed, I can feel the front starting to slide.
And I wonder why UK TDCIs can do 12,500 UK miles before an oil change, and yet USA TDCIs can only do 5000 Km (2500 miles). Must be due to the low cost of oil products. If us in the UK were told to change the oil every 2500 miles, we would say to the car manufacturer 'get knotted' and they wouldn't sell a single car.
Uk costs would be about Ł18-20 for the oil plus Ł30-40 for the change if you paid someone to do it - I guess as I usually do it myself.
You in the USA should do the same thing.
"Andy Lee" <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:45:09 +0000 (UTC), " Tim \(Remove NOSPAM. > Registry corupted, reformated HD and lost alot of stuff :\(" > <the.f...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Here in the UK the front tyres on my Focus are down to the legal limit > >> (1.6mm) within 10,000 miles. I wouldn't be going back many times, would > >> I.....!
> >You must go like jensen Button- both sets of (4) tyres on my '00 Zetec have > >lasted 25k!! I dont hang about either.
> Nah you only think you go fast Tim :-) Seriously mine normally last > around 20,000 as well. Chris must really give em some stick!!!
> All this rotation stuff is bollocks Tires wear faster at the front and > less at the rear. If you leave em on the back they will last a lot > longer and just replace the fronts as and when. I could see if you > were concerned about keeping the same tyre make and model all round > but on cars like a focus I don't see this as a major problem
I agree with you as far as rotation...maybe I should start a survey as to mileage and tire brand used...with and w/o rotation. I don't have money to waste on replacing tires sooner than I have to but I did notice with my 2000 wagon I got shorter wear than expected even with rotation...and I'm sure it wasn't my driving as the wagon was a little underpowered. Still love my Focus though - 2003 ZX5 Linda
Info <unkn...@centre.com> wrote: > You posting name "blown fuse" is a description that suits you very well. > These people you refer to as "morons" are the tire manufacturers and > knowledgeable tire dealers. > If you really knew what you were talking about, instead of bull shitting, > you would be also knowledgeable in the latest recommendations from the tire > manufacturers. > You put the best tires or the 2 new tires on the back because the back will > break free sooner than the front in adverse weather conditions and hard > manoeuvres. This applies to both rear wheel drive as well as front drive > vehicles .
Ack, that was just a troll who probably never heard about hydroplaning/aquaplaning.
If the front wheels get out of control, not a big problem, but if the rear ones do, well you'll be skidding and be hardly able to get it back safely.
-- Michael Heiming
Remove +SIGNS and www. if you expect an answer, sorry for inconvenience, but I get tons of SPAM
Andy Lee <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:15:38 +0100, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> wrote: > >Ack, that was just a troll who probably never heard about > >hydroplaning/aquaplaning.
> >If the front wheels get out of control, not a big problem, > So if the front wheels get out of control/aquaplane its not a problem? > Would you like to explain how one controls a car with no steering.
It will drive straight with no problems at all, as long as the rear wheels have contact, if those break out you have lost.
> >but if the rear ones do, well you'll be skidding and be hardly > >able to get it back safely. > Never heard of opposite lock? How do you think rally drivers control a > car which is almost always skidding.
Are you a rally driver? No you aren't as you have obviously not even the slightest clue about elementary physics that keep a car on the road.
BTW *Plonk*
-- Michael Heiming
Remove +SIGNS and www. if you expect an answer, sorry for inconvenience, but I get tons of SPAM
In message <mh3rub.s1h...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes
>Andy Lee <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote:
>> So if the front wheels get out of control/aquaplane its not a problem? >> Would you like to explain how one controls a car with no steering.
>It will drive straight with no problems at all, as long as the >rear wheels have contact, if those break out you have lost.
What a load of nonsense. How is the car going to drive straight if your front wheels step out when cornering. It might drive straight into the oncoming vehicle but that's about it. Like most others, I stick my new tyres on the front if its a FWD car.
>> >but if the rear ones do, well you'll be skidding and be hardly >> >able to get it back safely.
>> Never heard of opposite lock? How do you think rally drivers control a >> car which is almost always skidding.
>Are you a rally driver? No you aren't as you have obviously not >even the slightest clue about elementary physics that keep a car on the >road.
I'm not sure that you do.
>BTW >*Plonk*
Do you always plonk when you are losing an argument? That's not very mature is it. Perhaps you might want to plonk me too.
Paul Giverin <p...@giverin.co.uk> wrote: > In message <mh3rub.s1h...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes > >Andy Lee <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote:
> >> So if the front wheels get out of control/aquaplane its not a problem? > >> Would you like to explain how one controls a car with no steering.
> >It will drive straight with no problems at all, as long as the > >rear wheels have contact, if those break out you have lost.
> What a load of nonsense. How is the car going to drive straight if your > front wheels step out when cornering. It might drive straight into the > oncoming vehicle but that's about it. Like most others, I stick my new > tyres on the front if its a FWD car.
LOL...You obviously don't have a clue about about physics that hold a car on the road, or about hydroplaning/aquaplaning. Ask someone that knows more about it and stop dispersing your false assertions. I don't feel like wasting anymore time about the problem, as you insist on your FUD.
Once again, the best tires belong to the back of a car, no matter if front/rear driven. Ask some tire manufacturer about it, they will tell you.
-- Michael Heiming
Remove +SIGNS and www. if you expect an answer, sorry for inconvenience, but I get tons of SPAM
> In message <mh3rub.s1h...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes > >Andy Lee <andy.leeNO_SPAM_PLE...@siemens.com> wrote:
> >> So if the front wheels get out of control/aquaplane its not a problem? > >> Would you like to explain how one controls a car with no steering.
> >It will drive straight with no problems at all, as long as the > >rear wheels have contact, if those break out you have lost.
> What a load of nonsense. How is the car going to drive straight if your > front wheels step out when cornering. It might drive straight into the > oncoming vehicle but that's about it. Like most others, I stick my new > tyres on the front if its a FWD car.
Perhaps like many Germans he's most familiar with driving in a straight line ad nauseum on the Autobahn. My experience from following German tourists through the Alps is they really don't have a clue what a curve is, and therefore he could be excused if he has never experienced understeer in a corner.
In message <5o8rub.3sk...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes
>LOL...You obviously don't have a clue about about physics that >hold a car on the road, or about hydroplaning/aquaplaning.
So you keep saying (to everyone who disagrees with you).
> Ask >someone that knows more about it and stop dispersing your false >assertions. I don't feel like wasting anymore time about the >problem, as you insist on your FUD.
So you feel that posting here is a waste of time? Don't bother then. I suspect that you really means that you don't want to see your own views challenged.
>Once again, the best tires belong to the back of a car, no matter >if front/rear driven. Ask some tire manufacturer about it, they >will tell you.
I don't have to ask anyone about it. I've got almost 25 years experience of driving FWD cars and its always the front wheels which will step out, not the rears. That's why I make sure the best rubber is on the front wheels.
Paul Giverin <p...@giverin.co.uk> wrote: > In message <5o8rub.3sk...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes > >LOL...You obviously don't have a clue about about physics that > >hold a car on the road, or about hydroplaning/aquaplaning. > So you keep saying (to everyone who disagrees with you).
Yep, only that some people state something wrong doesn't make it anymore true.
[..]
> >Once again, the best tires belong to the back of a car, no matter > >if front/rear driven. Ask some tire manufacturer about it, they > >will tell you.
> I don't have to ask anyone about it. I've got almost 25 years experience > of driving FWD cars and its always the front wheels which will step out,
You fear that they tell you the truth?
;)
-- Michael Heiming
Remove +SIGNS and www. if you expect an answer, sorry for inconvenience, but I get tons of SPAM
> In message <5o8rub.3sk...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming > <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes
> I don't have to ask anyone about it. I've got almost 25 years experience > of driving FWD cars and its always the front wheels which will step out, > not the rears. That's why I make sure the best rubber is on the front > wheels.
Well, yes and no. Not so relevant to aquaplaning, but in poor traction such as snow or slick roads, but where the tire still contacts the road, having the poorer tires on the back can exaggerate any evil tendencies a FWD car may have under braking or in lift-throttle conditions. If you've ever driven a Peugeot 205GTI, you're well aware of the concept of lift-throttle-snap-oversteer. :-) On my 1st generation VW Scirocco (light, fairly neutral handling) the best setup in the winter was to rotate the worst tires to the *front*. There was more than enough weight over the front wheels to help out on traction. With the worse tires on the back, it had more of a tendency to oversteer. Now, did it ever spontaneously go into oversteer without being provoked (i.e. braking or lift-throttle in a *heavy* corner, or being a hooligan with the steering)? Nope. Of course, when I say "worse" tires, I'm really only talking about a mm of tread depth difference max. Anything more than that and you should probably be visiting a tire store quickly.
In message <vaarub.vfm...@news.heiming.de>, Michael Heiming <michael+USE...@www.heiming.de> writes
>Paul Giverin <p...@giverin.co.uk> wrote: >> >Once again, the best tires belong to the back of a car, no matter >> >if front/rear driven. Ask some tire manufacturer about it, they >> >will tell you.
>> I don't have to ask anyone about it. I've got almost 25 years experience >> of driving FWD cars and its always the front wheels which will step out,
>You fear that they tell you the truth?
If you would choose to disregard 25 years of your own experience on the road in favour of someone else's opinions then you are either brave or foolish.
Do you believe everything your are told by a large company?
Was Thalidomide a safe drug? The manufacturer thought so. Are cigarettes safe to smoke? The manufacturer's say they are. What where the manufacturer's claims about the Titanic?
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