What to do with a ruined 02R96
Jon Dansby
weren't out to steal anything. They actually made off with a sack of stuff,
but dropped it when they almost got caught. We sorted through the bag and
found several things. Among them were name tags, golf pencils, zip ties, a
piece-of-junk radio, and other assorted things.
Unfortunately, there was a piece of equipment that got ruined. We had a
Yamaha 02R96 and the kids decided that it would be funny for them to pour
vanilla syrup for coffee all over the sound board. I mean it is COVERED.
Well, the syrup ran into every nook and cranny. We took it to a
Yamaha-authorized repair and restoration shop and they have recently told us
that the syrup has pretty much ruined the unit. It is in every motorized
fader and basically everything will need to be replaced.
Here is where I need your advice. Is it possible to take the 02R96 apart and
sell it for parts? Should I sell it whole to some hobbyist? Is there a
market for either? I know that the preamps are quality and seem to be
untouched. Would it be worth taking them out and rigging them up in some
kind of rack configuration for a studio? What do you guys (and/or gals)
think I should do with a ruined 02R96?
Jerry Wood
"Jon Dansby" <jon...@removethis.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:44u2c.7928$D07....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
and challenge them to take it completely apart clean it and put it back to
gether again?
Jerry
Saxology
"Jon Dansby" <jon...@removethis.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:44u2c.7928$D07....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
That sucks dude. I have one idea that might give you a chance.... but it
may be hard to find. In the electronic business, when making boards, the
final step is a cleaning process to degrease the board and to remove flux.
If you could find someone with a vapor cleaner they could put your boards
through a cleaning. This should do the trick as anything that could go into
a component should be able to be washed out.
The problem is that it will be hard to find anyone that wants to do this for
you. No one will want vanilla syrup in their degreaser. You could get some
spray degreaser/flux remover and try a test spot yourself.
Just don't turn the thing on until you are satisfied everything is clean or
you risk blowing all sorts of things up.
Not an easy task to be sure...
-Sax
Hope somebody thinks of a better solution for you......
Phil Allison
"Saxology" <Saxolo...@yahoo.com>
> >
>
> That sucks dude. I have one idea that might give you a chance.... but it
> may be hard to find. In the electronic business, when making boards, the
> final step is a cleaning process to degrease the board and to remove flux.
> If you could find someone with a vapor cleaner they could put your boards
> through a cleaning. This should do the trick as anything that could go
into
> a component should be able to be washed out.
>
> The problem is that it will be hard to find anyone that wants to do this
for
> you. No one will want vanilla syrup in their degreaser. You could get
some
> spray degreaser/flux remover and try a test spot yourself.
** Solder flux is not a grease and PCBs do not normally become greasy in
manufacture. None of the usual flux solvents will not have any effect on a
sugary mess.
Sugar, other foods and drink spills are easily dissolved away with the
same method used to wash the dishes after a meal. Immerse the items to be
cleaned in warm water with a squirt of liquid detergent, agitate with a
brush to get all the goop off - then rinse with clean water and dry
thoroughly with warm air.
With careful and patient cleaning of each sub assembly that mixer can be
probably be restored - something the guys in most electronics service
centres have no wish to even try.
The OP should try approaching some other techs with the problem.
........... Phil
Pooh Bear
Not a million miles away from the solution I would suggest.
*DO NOT* use solvents. They will remove critical oils and grease from bearings
and sliding surfaces.
Similarly - any use of detergents is to best avoided.
If you know anyone with an ultrasonic cleaner of suitable size - immerse in
clean water and agitate. Repeat until the liquid is clear.
You just might have a chance then.
Ideally de-ionised water is best for the last rinse or two.
Graham
Saxology
> *DO NOT* use solvents. They will remove critical oils and grease from
bearings
> and sliding surfaces.
>
The biggest problems arise with motorized parts. Any lube will be gone
after a real cleaning. Generally, these bearings are lubed for life. If
they are sealed, the poor guy has a chance.
-Sax
Saxology
<snip>
>
>
> ** Solder flux is not a grease and PCBs do not normally become greasy in
> manufacture. None of the usual flux solvents will not have any effect on
a
> sugary mess.
The process is called degreasing. look at any vapor phase degreaser used in
PCB manufacture. 1-1-1 Tri used to be the solvent of choice but now, in the
US anyway, this has given way to citrus based solvents.
-Sax
Phil Allison
"Saxology" .
>
> <snip>
> >
> >
> > ** Solder flux is not a grease and PCBs do not normally become greasy
in
> > manufacture. None of the usual flux solvents will not have any effect
on
> a sugary mess.
> > <snip>
>
> The process is called degreasing.
** It is more usually called PCB cleaning or de-fluxing.
Your advice to try a de-fluxer spray on sticky sugar is stupid.
........... Phil
Arny Krueger
news:404A8571...@hotmail.com
> Phil Allison wrote:
>> "Saxology" Saxolo...@yahoo.com
>>> That sucks dude.
Agreed. Hopefully there is some kind of insurance. The equiment was
effectively stolen.
>>> I have one idea that might give you a chance....
>>> but it may be hard to find. In the electronic business, when
>>> making boards, the final step is a cleaning process to degrease the
>>> board and to remove flux. If you could find someone with a vapor
>>> cleaner they could put your boards through a cleaning. This should
>>> do the trick as anything that could go into
>>> a component should be able to be washed out.
>>> The problem is that it will be hard to find anyone that wants to do this
for
>>> you. No one will want vanilla syrup in their degreaser. You could get
some
>>> spray degreaser/flux remover and try a test spot yourself.
Putting regular electronic components into a commercial parts degreaser is a
horrifically bad idea. Sure fire way to trash *everything*. A commercial
degreaser uses a bath of vaporized organic solvent to degrease the parts.
The vapor is at a temperature below the boiling point of water, but hot
enough to burn skin on contact.
It is well known among people who actually use these things (such as
myself) that they will dissolve most common organic materials including most
rubbers and plastics. Teflon survives.
For example, one always removes seals and gaskets that one wants to reuse
before degreasing, because the degreaser will basically make them go away or
at least damage them beyond the point of salvage. If these things dissolve
nitrile rubber gaskets, you can imagine what they do to vinyl-covered wire.
Some high temperature insulations, such as used on better motor and
transformer windings, and of course Teflon, survives a parts degreaser.
>> ** Solder flux is not a grease and PCBs do not normally become
>> greasy in manufacture. None of the usual flux solvents will not
>> have any effect on a sugary mess.
There are now such things as water-soluble fluxes, and so now water with a
little surfactant is considered to be a "usual flux solvent". But this
obviously goes beyond the intended context of the statement. Yeah, normal
organic flux solvents aren't the right thing to use to remove sugar syrup.
OTOH water with a little surfactant or chlorinated cleaner or a water
alcohol/ surfactant mix could be a good thing. The bad news - if you apply
this to mechanical parts, kiss any lubricants goodbye.
>> Sugar, other foods and drink spills are easily dissolved away
>> with the same method used to wash the dishes after a meal. Immerse
>> the items to be cleaned in warm water with a squirt of liquid
>> detergent, agitate with a brush to get all the goop off - then
>> rinse with clean water and dry thoroughly with warm air.
Agreed. That would be a good first step - a thorough soaking in warm mild
soapy water, one or more good rinses in basically pure warm water with a
tiny amount of surfactant, and then a long drying phase (a day or two) in a
drier. I use a spice dryer for this purpose because it allows me to control
the temperature and lots of air is exchanged.
>> With careful and patient cleaning of each sub assembly that mixer
>> can be probably be restored - something the guys in most
>> electronics service centres have no wish to even try.
All I have to say is that I wish the parties a lot of luck. I have brought
computer parts and other complex electronics back from the brink, but my
track record is far from perfect. As long as power is not applied until the
equipment is thoroughly clean, there is at least hope for recovering major
subassemblies.
>> The OP should try approaching some other techs with the problem.
> Not a million miles away from the solution I would suggest.
People who have some experience with water-soaked electronic gear have
relevant wisdom to share. Been there done that, but its a risky business. I
only provide these services on the conditions that it is agreed that the
equipment is already a total loss.
> *DO NOT* use solvents. They will remove critical oils and grease from
> bearings and sliding surfaces.
Agreed, but so will warm soapy water. Mechanical subassemblies will need to
be dismantled and inspected and re-lubricated.
> Similarly - any use of detergents is to best avoided.
Agreed, but there might be some fat in the flavored syrup, especially if it
has a buttery flavor, or chocolate, or caramel fudge flavor, & etc.
> If you know anyone with an ultrasonic cleaner of suitable size -
> immerse in clean water and agitate. Repeat until the liquid is clear.
Subassemblies could be treated this way, but again mechanical subassemblies
will need to be relubricated. That includes most switches and
potentiometers.
> You just might have a chance then.
Thee is the situation - there might be a chance.
> Ideally de-ionized water is best for the last rinse or two.
Yeah, especially with high impedance circuits. I don't think a digital board
would have these but it might.
Phil Allison
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop.com>
Yeah, normal
> organic flux solvents aren't the right thing to use to remove sugar syrup.
> OTOH water with a little surfactant or chlorinated cleaner or a water
> alcohol/ surfactant mix could be a good thing. The bad news - if you apply
> this to mechanical parts, kiss any lubricants goodbye.
** That is not my experience - the grease used in the bearings of a
rotary pot is not easily removed by brief immersion in dishwashing
solution. Small motors normally have no grease in them - they use
sintered bronze bearings which are self oiling.
Unless a fader is disassembled and cleaned internally the silicone grease
film will normally survive immersion in warm water and detergent long enough
to allow the sugary mess left behind by beer, coke etc to dissolve away.
Where grease is used on gears or levers it can be replaced if need be.
.......... Phil
Ernie Garner
premature. Ignore the Yamaha guys. Take it apart and wash it off
already. If it's insured, get the insurance money, get a new one and
buy it back cheap for a spare.
With the exception of the mechanical parts it probably works right
now, even with the gunk on it.
Ernie
(old-school tech)
eric white - pro audio services
> >think I should do with a ruined 02R96?
> >
i totally agree, sounds like thoses yamaha guys are just not willing
to spend the time to service it , maybe because its not their dime
that paid for it.
the sugar , as far as i would think, has low enough moisture content
that the circuits would not even come close to being destroyed by
corrosion. What would i do?? Ive been in the repair biz for 15yrs and
personally i would take the unit apart and clean it with 70% isopropyl
alcohol. the other 30% is water and will disolve/cut the sugars in the
syrup. I would even (no flaming me here) soak the faders, minus motors
if possible. Slow bake everything that was cleaned in an oven at VERY
low temps (like 120-130) deg for awhile to bake out the remaining
moisture. Regrease the sliders and motor(if soaked) with white lithium
grease which you can get in aerosol form. Then reassemble and
everything should be like new again.
Leave the fader knobs sticky, they can substitute as jolly ranchers.
Bob Urz
Well, the motorized faders are history. Been there and done that with a
DMP-7. Those will have to be replaced. I have tried to clean then and
lube them but it was a lost cause. They will NEVER be 100% again.
I agree you don't want to use to caustic of solvents on the main PC
board. Some people have condoned a mild wash in a dish washer.
Personally, i had not tried this on a PC board and think it may end up
doing other damage but i have seen it suggested.
What i might try is one of these home based steamers. I have one that
has a wand on a hosed extension from the heater tank. The pressure of
the steam and water combination done carefully might do the job. Then
quickly dry off the boards when your done. This would use straight water
so the caustic effects of a cleaning solution would be minimized.
I have been waiting for the right victim to try this on.
I tried to revive a flat screen monitor once that had something a little
caustic dripped into it. I was using alcohol and a small tooth brush and
q tips. One of the flat pac ics with many small pins had some of the
pins break when i tried to clean them. The dripped gunk weakening them
and my cleaning killed it. Careful is the word. Sometimes you get lucky,
sometimes you don't.
The sooner you clean it off, the better the odds are of revival.
Bob
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Phil Allison
"Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com>
> >
> Well, the motorized faders are history.
** More arse venting from Mr Errs.
>Been there and done that with a DMP-7. Those will have to be replaced. I
have tried to clean then and
> lube them but it was a lost cause. They will NEVER be 100% again.
** Geez - that was a really ripe one. Phew !
>
> I agree you don't want to use to caustic of solvents on the main PC
> board. Some people have condoned a mild wash in a dish washer.
> Personally, i had not tried this on a PC board and think it may end up
> doing other damage but i have seen it suggested.
** Dishwashing liquid contains no caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) - it
is a synthetic, non soap detergent - what Arny called a surfactant. It
is harmless to metals, plastics etc.
The various powders and liquids sold for washing clothes and for use in a
dishwashing machine normally contain large amounts of caustic and ** MUST
NOT ** be used for cleaning any electronics.
Caustic soda is a very strong alkali - it attacks and corrodes most
metals.
............. Phil
GK
"Phil Allison" <phila...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:404d67f3$0$8360$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Based on the results of what we have done in our shop, Phil has been dead on
right with his recommendations. For us, remote controls are the most popular
items with sticky syrupy stuff in them .[1] Soapy (Dawn) water and a
toothbrush is the thing for that type of contaminant. If you are really
picky, rinsing in distilled water will leave less conductive residue after
drying. Probably not a factor on this instance. A hair dryer is useful for
drying after rinsing, but a fan blowing on the item will work just as well.
In the case of this mixer, it seems unlikely that the fader motors have any
syrup inside of them, so washing the external goo off of them will probably
suffice.
GK
[1] The most extreme case, a VCR with melted, dried up orange popsicle did
not survive. 8~)
Bob Urz
Phil Allison wrote:
> "Bob Urz" <so...@inetnebr.com>
>
>>Well, the motorized faders are history.
>
>
>
> ** More arse venting from Mr Errs.
>
>
>
>>Been there and done that with a DMP-7. Those will have to be replaced. I
>
> have tried to clean then and
>
>>lube them but it was a lost cause. They will NEVER be 100% again.
>
>
>
> ** Geez - that was a really ripe one. Phew !
>
Well Mr. Allison, tell us you experience with ANY yamaha moving faders.
How many have you done? NON? That's what i thought.........
I have worked on them. Tried to revive them. Spent a LOT of time doing
it. The end result? Erratic operation. You can clean them, you can
change the drive belt on the motor. Those pots are NOT the highest
quality pots in the first place and then they add a motor to them.
Penny and giles there not. On the DMP-7's i tried this on, they would
never reliably track once they were cleaned. They would work one time,
then not move right the next. I think there was multiple reasons for
this. It could be partially a lubrication issue inside the pot.
Tension of the wipers. damaging of the resistance strip. Take your pick.
You might get them to work manually after a cleaning, but the motorized
functions will never be 100%. Them pots are Yamaha only items are are
NOT cheap.
Now, if you clean the main board and then clean the pots just to see if
it works, that's a possibility. Then once manual function is confirmed,
replace the motorized pots as needed.
BOB URZ
Careful about what you say about sugar not causing a problem.
When it gets into a sticky goo on the board, it can be conductive and cause
problems (beer and pop do wonders also) . I would not run any board that had
gunk inside until cleaning was at least attempted. I did a spirit soundcraft
that had wine dumped on it at a church. Talk about a pain. Just getting the
pots and switches off without PC damage was a work of art. I ended up damaging
a few traces and had to jump
them. The Pots and switches all had to be replaced that had direct contact
with the wine. And i found even after cleaning, some junk
under the switches i did not replace was causing some noise problems.
As far as sugar goes, years ago i had a hitachi VCR in for repair.
The electric mech. control buttons were all screwed up. Some worked, some did
not, some did a different function. That one had me going. I though the CPU
was out. CPU was fine. This unit had a different precision resistor on each
switch and used voltage division to determine which switch was pushed. Someone
spilled brown sugar
from oatmeal or such into one of the vent holes. This got on the board
where the precision resistors were. It added enough resistance to different
parts of the circuit to screw all the functions up. Cleaned it all off and all
was fine.
One thing about spill restoration. I takes TIME. Time cost money.
Many shops that flat rate might pass do to the time it takes to do
it right. There is no way of knowing how long it will take to get
all the gremlins out. If the spilled junk got under those mega pin soldered on
flat pack DSP's, what guarantee is there that you got it all with a cleaning?
The only 100% way is remove them and resolder them back on. Most shops don't
have SM soldering equipment to properly do these flat packs. And the pins are
so small it takes
magnifiers to properly see them. (at least for us old F techs)
That may be why a factory repair center doesn't want to go that route and
recommend board replacement.
Phil Allison
"BOB URZ" <"sound(remove)"@inetnebr.com>
>.
>
> Careful about what you say about sugar not causing a problem.
> When it gets into a sticky goo on the board, it can be conductive and
cause
> problems (beer and pop do wonders also) .
** The Yamaha was NOT switched on at the time of the spillage nor since -
so there is no possibility of electrolysis.
Correct comments on this have been posted by others in the thread.
> I did a spirit soundcraft
> that had wine dumped on it at a church.
** Wine is highly acidic and hence corrosive to metals.
> Talk about a pain. Just getting the
> pots and switches off without PC damage was a work of art. I ended up
damaging
> a few traces and had to jump
> them. The Pots and switches all had to be replaced that had direct contact
> with the wine. And i found even after cleaning, some junk
> under the switches i did not replace was causing some noise problems.
** Same years back I was presented with a Soundcraft 200B that had be
deliberately sabotaged with a whole glass of beer poured inside by removing
one module - this was done secretly while the desk was stored in a room
in a pub. The desk in its road case was then transported to another gig so
moved around spreading the beer everywhere inside. The owner then made an
attempt to use the desk but the PSU DC lead exploded preventing that (the AC
wiring in the rig had been tampered with as well).
The desk was a mess when I got it - all the PCBs were splashed with beer,
push button switches had beer inside plus all the pots, connectors etc -
even the VUs. Every module including the master module had to be removed,
washed in warm water and detergent - some more than once, then dried and
tested.
The desk was returned to service two days later without the need to
replace any parts and everything worked just fine.
............ Phil
eric white - pro audio services
>
> Careful about what you say about sugar not causing a problem.
> When it gets into a sticky goo on the board, it can be conductive and cause
> problems (beer and pop do wonders also) .
ABSOLUTELY! i never said power it up with moisture or gunk on the PCB
chassis.
The moisture can cause digita circuits to crosstalk and can do things
like erase flash eproms and corrupt RAM data. It can cause op amp
circuits to simply lock up due to + or -15vdc appearing at inputs also
caused by voltage leak over or pcb trace crosstalk.
> I did a spirit soundcraft
> that had wine dumped on it at a church. Talk about a pain. Just getting the
> pots and switches off without PC damage was a work of art. I ended up damaging
> a few traces and had to jump
> them. The Pots and switches all had to be replaced that had direct contact
> with the wine. And i found even after cleaning, some junk
> under the switches i did not replace was causing some noise problems.
Seems to me that wine would have some acidic properties ( coke sure as
hell does!) that would have eaten the resistive trace right out of the
faders and caused damage to the coating on the contact surfaces of the
switches. In these cases, the longer you wait, the worse the damage.
Kind of reminds me of the old SNL skit about 3 mile island and one of
the nuke techs spilled a coke on the controls. Cleaning is not much of
an option with a fader that has has a corrosive liquid spilled in it.
Syrup is not acidic , at least not enough to cause damage soon.
>
> As far as sugar goes, years ago i had a hitachi VCR in for repair.
> The electric mech. control buttons were all screwed up. Some worked, some did
> not, some did a different function. That one had me going. I though the CPU
> was out. CPU was fine. This unit had a different precision resistor on each
> switch and used voltage division to determine which switch was pushed. Someone
> spilled brown sugar
> from oatmeal or such into one of the vent holes. This got on the board
> where the precision resistors were. It added enough resistance to different
> parts of the circuit to screw all the functions up. Cleaned it all off and all
> was fine.
JVC , RCA and hitachi (same as rca in the old days) were a pain in the
ass because of this. even without spill damage , if a switch contact
didnt "completely make" it would caude irradic functions. Those little
snap action pcb mounted switches were a pain. Ive repaired my share
back in the day.
>
> One thing about spill restoration. I takes TIME. Time cost money.
> Many shops that flat rate might pass do to the time it takes to do
> it right. There is no way of knowing how long it will take to get
> all the gremlins out. If the spilled junk got under those mega pin soldered on
> flat pack DSP's, what guarantee is there that you got it all with a cleaning?
> The only 100% way is remove them and resolder them back on. Most shops don't
> have SM soldering equipment to properly do these flat packs. And the pins are
> so small it takes
> magnifiers to properly see them. (at least for us old F techs)
> That may be why a factory repair center doesn't want to go that route and
> recommend board replacement.
>
Wnen you start flushing the PCB with anythiong, it WILL end up under
the PCB chips. Thats why i use an air compressor to blow away all the
moisture i can , then i do the low temp baking think. And...your
right, most factory repair dont want to spend the time....but there
are other people out there that are better than the "factory people"
and are willing to do it.
Denny Conn
> ** Same years back I was presented with a Soundcraft 200B that had be
> deliberately sabotaged with a whole glass of beer poured inside by removing
> one module - this was done secretly while the desk was stored in a room
> in a pub. The desk in its road case was then transported to another gig so
> moved around spreading the beer everywhere inside. The owner then made an
> attempt to use the desk but the PSU DC lead exploded preventing that (the AC
> wiring in the rig had been tampered with as well).
>
> The desk was a mess when I got it - all the PCBs were splashed with beer,
> push button switches had beer inside plus all the pots, connectors etc -
> even the VUs. Every module including the master module had to be removed,
> washed in warm water and detergent - some more than once, then dried and
> tested.
>
> The desk was returned to service two days later without the need to
> replace any parts and everything worked just fine.
>
Being the resident beer expert ;), I would have to say success would be
dependent on what type of beer got dumped in. A North American
Industrial Lager or something like Foster's should do no harm at all
since those are pretty close to water. A Belgian dubbel, German
dopplebock, or sweet stout would definitely wreak havoc! :)
-------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.
Reply to denny_dot_g_dot_conn_at_ci_dot_eugene_dot_or_dot_us
Ernie Garner
http://global.horiba.com/story_e/conductivity/conductivity_03.htm :
"You now understand that we can determine the salinity of salt water
by knowing its conductivity. Some of you may wonder whether sugar
water can also be measured. Unfortunately, a conductivity meter cannot
tell you the density of sugar in water. Although sugar is soluble in
water, it does not form ions, which means that it is not an
electrolyte. Only when ions are produced in water can the density of
the dissolved substance be calculated from conductivity measured using
a conductivity meter."
From what I can see, the problem with "sugar" is actually the organic
contaminants - the acids from food products in the sugar solution. In
this case we should be talking about the "chemical" sugar so I still
think the major problem with be with physical sugar crystals and
artifacts from the cleaning process.
Ernie