#1

The American Historical Review Vol. 104 # 3 June 1999.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/104.3/br_36.html

Allen Jayne. Jefferson's Declaration of Independence: Origins, Philosophy,
and Theology. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky. 1998. Pp. xiii, 245.
$39.95.

This book is a clear, concise, and accurate account of the philosophical
and religious views that inspired Thomas Jefferson to compose the United
States' formative document. Allen Jayne leaves no doubt that the "Nature's
God" found in the Declaration of Independence, the deity who provides the
American colonists with their right to rebel against the British
government, is the rationalist God of deism, not the personal God of
Abraham.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------
 "Second, the contributions of religion, especially Protestantism,
to the shaping of American society must be put into clearer perspective. In
the generation that produced the Constitution, only about ten percent of
the population were church members, and "in 1800 there were fewer churches
relative to population than at any other time before or since"' Whether one
seeks to explain this by the rural nature of American society and the
relative lack of clergy, or the attraction to natural, as opposed to
revealed religion, the low level of church membership is a sobering fact."
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Religion & Constitutional Government in the United
States, A Historical Overview with Sources. John E. Semonche, Signet Books
Carrboro, N.C. (1985)  pp 30
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alt.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.chri stian
Re: School Prayer Continued

Who was the first Christian President?

Washington is somewhat of a mystery.  Although he often attended
church services, it is known that he always left before communion.
One of his pastors stated, "Washington was a Deist."

Adams, Jefferson, and Madison were absolutely not Christian.

John Adams and his son, John Quincy Adams, were both
Unitarians who leaned towards Deism.

My source, "The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents" by Franklin Steiner
(not yet published,  list both Adams as Unitarians.  If you have other
information, please list it.

        "When the crisis came, Jefferson, Paine, John Adams,
     Washington, Franklin, Madison, and many lesser lights
     were to be reckoned among either the Unitarians or the
     Deists. it was not Cotton Mather's God to whom the
     author of the Declaration of Independence appealed, it
     was to 'Nature's God.' From whatever source derived, the
     effect of both Unitarianism and Deism was to hasten the
     retirement of historic theology from its empire over the
     intellect of American leaders, and to clear the atmosphere
     for secular interests"
                        -- The Rise of American Civilization,"
                        by Charles A. and Mary R. Beard. (Vol. I., p. 449.)

It seems absurd that you would call Jefferson a Christian when you
admit that he did not accept Christ as the son of God.

We went over the issue of whether Thomas Jefferson called himself a
Christian or not in another thread.  It turns out that the person claiming
Jefferson said it, was using an out of context passage from one of
Jefferson's letters.   In context, you could see that Jefferson only meant
that he was a Christian because he followed the real Jesus Christ while all
those who claimed to be Christians were following a Christ who was not
real.

James Madison's religious views are unknown.

   He was a strong advocate of
freedom of religion, but he kept his mouth shut on his own religion.

I have read some of his private letters.  I have seen nothing where he
declares himself to be a Christian.  If you have seen anything else, then
present it.

  He did not attend church except special affairs at St. John's Church in
Washington D.C.

Technically, a congregational church is any local church in which is
independent of any other religious body although many of them may share a
common creed.  A definition which includes Unitarians.

Unitarianism began as a reaction against the Trinity, but most of them have
now dropped all religious dogma and have accepted freedom of conscience.
It is up to the individual's own conscience to decide what to believe.
Even an atheist can belong.

Even though you appear to have done far more reading on these men than I
have, you really have not been able to say any more than they "seems to be
.
. . "  A major problem here is that we are talking about politicians.

John Adams once complimented George Washington by saying, "He knew when to
keep his mouth shut."  Many politicians follow that rule.  If a politician
is speaking to a group of Christians, that politician "seems to be" a
Christian.  If that same politician is speaking to a group of atheist, that
politician "seems to be" an atheist.  There are few groups of atheists,
therefore the politician will lean towards sounding like a Christian.

A reference to God in a political speech does not mean that the speaker is
religious.  Even in private letters it may not mean anything.  There are
numerous phrases with references God that are casually thrown around, but
which does not mean that the speaker is a Christian, e.g. "God be with
you", "God help me", "God willing".

Trying to determine a person's religion by their background or training is
also dangerous.  It is often that background or training which causes a
rejection of that religion.

There is an inconsistency among many of the contributors to this newsgroup.
If I refer to Torquemada as a Christian (which he unquestionably was), I
will get arguments claiming that Torquemada was not a Christian.  When I
claim that Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, there are angry posters
who state that he was.

I go by the simple dictionary definition of a Christian: "a person
professing belief in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based upon the
teachings of Jesus."  I find no place where any of these men have made such
a profession, therefore their Christianity is in doubt.
Some of these men, like Jefferson and Paine, are definitely not Christian.

Weatherwax
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Subject: Re: George Washington not Christian
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:43:42 GMT

 Actually, Adams was considered to be a Universalist, with some Deist
 leanings. He began as a Calvinist.

Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S. Gaustad, Harper
& Row, (1987) pp 85 - 97  should be good.

For Washington:

Well the book I have been citing:

George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller, Southern Methodist
University Press: Dallas TX (1962)

Then:

Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S. Gaustad, Harper
& Row, (1987) pp 71 - 85  has some good material

And don't forget this:

"Though the cool deism of Washington can hardly be distinguished in broad
outline from that of Jefferson, the public reaction to the two men and
their religious views differed sharply. Only Jefferson was denounced as the
'howling atheist,' never Washington. Only Jefferson was attacked as the
enemy of the churches and the clergy, never Washington. A curious public
probed and punches Adams, Franklin and Jefferson regarding their Christian
convictions, but never Washington."
Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S. Gaustad, Harper
& Row, (1987) pp 77

 There is at least one letter where he gets down on his son for being such
a
 orthodox Christian.

The founders were not as easy to classify as you would like to think and
try so hard to tell others.

They were complex, as most humans are, and that complexity extended to
their religious beliefs and thoughts as well.