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A Personal Testimony
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Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 1:53:01 AM7/2/12
to
The following I give as testimony to the truth of a certain event and
the promise that came out of it.
It was a Saturday afternoon in the summer of 2009, and outside St.
John's members of the congregation were offering refreshments to
passers-by. They made no charge for this, no price list was displayed,
but there was a cash box where one could leave a donation.
I stopped by, as I had on many such afternoons for nothing more than a
drink of water and some conversation. I asked a group sitting at one
of the tables if I might join them and was invited warmly to do so.
Our conversation touched on many subjects, but they are of no
importance in this account.
One elderly lady in the group asked me if I would care for a cup of
tea or coffee rather than just having another glass of water, I
politely declined and she asked me why. So I told her of my kidney
problem that had been diagnosed in February 2001, and how research had
shown how the caffeine contained in such drinks may aggravate the
cysts.
She accepted all this, and when it came to the time for her to leave
she promised that she would pray for me. I thanked her for this as one
should thank another for any offer of assistance genuinely offered, as
this clearly was.
Now as time went by, each blood test showed my kidney function
continued to decline. In August 2010 I was told that I would need a
fistula operation. This operation was carried out in November of the
same year. And as my kidney function continued to decline I began
regular dialysis in March 2011.
So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
the promise that came out of it.
It was a Saturday afternoon in the summer of 2009, and outside St.
John's members of the congregation were offering refreshments to
passers-by. They made no charge for this, no price list was displayed,
but there was a cash box where one could leave a donation.
I stopped by, as I had on many such afternoons for nothing more than a
drink of water and some conversation. I asked a group sitting at one
of the tables if I might join them and was invited warmly to do so.
Our conversation touched on many subjects, but they are of no
importance in this account.
One elderly lady in the group asked me if I would care for a cup of
tea or coffee rather than just having another glass of water, I
politely declined and she asked me why. So I told her of my kidney
problem that had been diagnosed in February 2001, and how research had
shown how the caffeine contained in such drinks may aggravate the
cysts.
She accepted all this, and when it came to the time for her to leave
she promised that she would pray for me. I thanked her for this as one
should thank another for any offer of assistance genuinely offered, as
this clearly was.
Now as time went by, each blood test showed my kidney function
continued to decline. In August 2010 I was told that I would need a
fistula operation. This operation was carried out in November of the
same year. And as my kidney function continued to decline I began
regular dialysis in March 2011.
So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
JTEM
Jul 2, 2012, 2:09:02 AM7/2/12
to
Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
a waiter?
The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
they give him presents.
If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
the Supernatural world to function like that?
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 3:04:51 AM7/2/12
to
On Jul 2, 7:09 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
That isn't what I'm saying at all. I merely recounted the event in
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
which a believer made the aforementioned promise.
>
> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> they give him presents.
If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> they give him presents.
Jesus taught them.
Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7 if you want to know why.
>
> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> the Supernatural world to function like that?
The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> the Supernatural world to function like that?
It is supposed to be the source of miracles.
Are you suggesting it isn't?
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Andrew
Jul 2, 2012, 4:41:21 AM7/2/12
to
"JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:c2936ec5-083e-43eb...@o4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
>
> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> they give him presents.
Agree.
>
>> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
>
> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> they give him presents.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 4:47:24 AM7/2/12
to
On Jul 2, 9:41 am, "Andrew" <andrew.321re...@usa.net> wrote:
> "JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c2936ec5-083e-43eb...@o4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
You too need to realise I didn't ask for anything, a promise was
offered.
And being a decent human being I accepted it.
> "JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c2936ec5-083e-43eb...@o4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> > So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> > all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> > a waiter?
>
> > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > they give him presents.
>
> Agree.
>
It seems you also need to read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
>
> >> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> > So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> > all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> > a waiter?
>
> > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > they give him presents.
>
> Agree.
>
You too need to realise I didn't ask for anything, a promise was
offered.
And being a decent human being I accepted it.
Jeanne Douglas
Jul 2, 2012, 5:12:32 AM7/2/12
to
In article <sYGdnZQaetr-w2zS...@earthlink.com>,
A little boy KNOWS his parents exist.
We have no reason to believe your god exists.
Is coming up with silly and faulty analogies a symptom of godbotism?
Though I will admit this one wasn't as putrid as most of Jason's.
JD
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
> "JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c2936ec5-083e-43eb...@o4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
> >
> > So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> > all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> > a waiter?
> >
> > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > they give him presents.
>
> Agree.
Idiots. Why is it necessary to explain something to simple to you?
> "JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c2936ec5-083e-43eb...@o4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
> >
> > So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> > all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> > a waiter?
> >
> > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > they give him presents.
>
> Agree.
A little boy KNOWS his parents exist.
We have no reason to believe your god exists.
Is coming up with silly and faulty analogies a symptom of godbotism?
Though I will admit this one wasn't as putrid as most of Jason's.
JD
Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 5:25:42 AM7/2/12
to
On Jul 2, 10:12 am, Jeanne Douglas <hlwdj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <sYGdnZQaetr-w2zSnZ2dnUVZ_vudn...@earthlink.com>,
The poster called JTEM posited it.
Andrew only agreed with it.
> In article <sYGdnZQaetr-w2zSnZ2dnUVZ_vudn...@earthlink.com>,
Andrew only agreed with it.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 2, 2012, 6:14:01 AM7/2/12
to
On Monday, 2 July 2012 06:53:01 UTC+1, Devils Advocaat wrote:
> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
Probably she did. Do you really think a miracle cure would result?
> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
I can't really see the logic of intercession. I mean, do you think there's a God who didn't notice your problem. and needs His attention drawn to it?
Do you think He'd go "Oops! Didn't notice that kidney, I'll put in on my to-do list."
Not that I've any problem with one person wishing a stranger well, of course.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 6:54:51 AM7/2/12
to
On Jul 2, 11:14 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
deity's existence.
to any possibility.
> Do you think He'd go "Oops! Didn't notice that kidney, I'll put in on my to-do list."
In my case it's both kidneys, I have Polycystic Kidney Disease.
sincerity.
wrote:
> On Monday, 2 July 2012 06:53:01 UTC+1, Devils Advocaat wrote:
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> Probably she did. Do you really think a miracle cure would result?
If a cure did result, it would have been the biggest evidence for a
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> Probably she did. Do you really think a miracle cure would result?
deity's existence.
>
> I can't really see the logic of intercession. I mean, do you think there's a God who didn't notice your problem. and needs His attention drawn to it?
>
I'm a pragmatist, I go where the evidence leads, my mind remains open
> I can't really see the logic of intercession. I mean, do you think there's a God who didn't notice your problem. and needs His attention drawn to it?
>
to any possibility.
> Do you think He'd go "Oops! Didn't notice that kidney, I'll put in on my to-do list."
>
> Not that I've any problem with one person wishing a stranger well, of course.
That's why I was grateful to this woman as her offer was made in all
> Not that I've any problem with one person wishing a stranger well, of course.
sincerity.
Jn.2:22@thewell.com Ps.119
Jul 2, 2012, 7:42:09 AM7/2/12
to
this woman could have been praying to Mary or one of the many, many other dead people to whom they
gave the attributes of God... you're not specific in revealing the denomination of this church you
mention.
nonetheless, prayer to the Living God does not necessarily fix what's being prayed for. if that
were the case, there would be no war, famine, disease and so on. God does according to His will,
Dan.4:35
besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
example.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 2, 2012, 8:23:59 AM7/2/12
to
On Jul 2, 12:42 pm, Ps.119 <1 Jn.2:2...@thewell.com> wrote:
Well no one made you post here, did they?
You are also presuming to criticise Christians for deifying people,
and I don't know of any Christians that do that.
simple situation.
I didn't ask to be prayed for, the promise was made, and I accepted
this believer would do as she promised.
Your last words are rather cold-hearted and dismissive, and very Un-
Christian.
>
> this woman could have been praying to Mary or one of the many, many other dead people to whom they
> gave the attributes of God... you're not specific in revealing the denomination of this church you
> mention.
That's because I don't know the denomination.
> this woman could have been praying to Mary or one of the many, many other dead people to whom they
> gave the attributes of God... you're not specific in revealing the denomination of this church you
> mention.
You are also presuming to criticise Christians for deifying people,
and I don't know of any Christians that do that.
>
> nonetheless, prayer to the Living God does not necessarily fix what's being prayed for. if that
> were the case, there would be no war, famine, disease and so on. God does according to His will,
> Dan.4:35
Then that makes the words of Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7 lies.
> nonetheless, prayer to the Living God does not necessarily fix what's being prayed for. if that
> were the case, there would be no war, famine, disease and so on. God does according to His will,
> Dan.4:35
>
> besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
> example.
Let me make it clear, so you can get your head round this incredibly
> besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
> example.
simple situation.
I didn't ask to be prayed for, the promise was made, and I accepted
this believer would do as she promised.
Your last words are rather cold-hearted and dismissive, and very Un-
Christian.
Malcolm McMahon
Jul 2, 2012, 9:27:32 AM7/2/12
to
On Monday, 2 July 2012 12:42:09 UTC+1, Ps.119 wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat >
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat >
> besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
> example.
Hang on, how can you "not hear" something if you're omniscient?
> example.
kni...@baawa.com
Jul 2, 2012, 9:36:09 AM7/2/12
to
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat
<manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Now as time went by, each blood test showed my kidney function
>continued to decline. In August 2010 I was told that I would need a
>fistula operation. This operation was carried out in November of the
>same year. And as my kidney function continued to decline I began
>regular dialysis in March 2011.
>
>So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
Maybe she did pray for you but she fucked it up by not praying hard
>Now as time went by, each blood test showed my kidney function
>continued to decline. In August 2010 I was told that I would need a
>fistula operation. This operation was carried out in November of the
>same year. And as my kidney function continued to decline I began
>regular dialysis in March 2011.
>
>So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
enough. You should sue her for breach of promise.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
Message has been deleted
MarkA
Jul 2, 2012, 5:20:27 PM7/2/12
to
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
Free Lunch
Jul 2, 2012, 6:14:55 PM7/2/12
to
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:09:02 -0700 (PDT), JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:
>Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
>So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
>all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
>a waiter?
That god cannot be omnibenevolent. Why worship such a god that doesn't
give a damn about people?
in alt.talk.creationism:
>Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
>So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
>all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
>a waiter?
give a damn about people?
US4ZION
Jul 2, 2012, 6:24:55 PM7/2/12
to
duhhhhhhh....
u4z
Free Lunch
Jul 2, 2012, 6:46:21 PM7/2/12
to
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 07:42:09 -0400, Ps.119 <1 Jn.2:2...@thewell.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:
Yes, you have made your self-righteous opinion known. Of course you
backed up none of it with evidence. Why should we take your word about
it?
>this woman could have been praying to Mary or one of the many, many other dead people to whom they
>gave the attributes of God... you're not specific in revealing the denomination of this church you
>mention.
What evidence do you have that she did or that it is wrong to do so?
>nonetheless, prayer to the Living God does not necessarily fix what's being prayed for. if that
>were the case, there would be no war, famine, disease and so on. God does according to His will,
>Dan.4:35
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus
You are saying that your god isn't worth bothering with.
>besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
>example.
Why do you love those Old Testament quotes. Remember that the Old
Testament made it clear that God was only the god of Israel. You are out
of luck.
in alt.talk.creationism:
backed up none of it with evidence. Why should we take your word about
it?
>this woman could have been praying to Mary or one of the many, many other dead people to whom they
>gave the attributes of God... you're not specific in revealing the denomination of this church you
>mention.
>nonetheless, prayer to the Living God does not necessarily fix what's being prayed for. if that
>were the case, there would be no war, famine, disease and so on. God does according to His will,
>Dan.4:35
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus
You are saying that your god isn't worth bothering with.
>besides that, God does not hear, let alone respond to the prayers of the unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for
>example.
Testament made it clear that God was only the god of Israel. You are out
of luck.
Smiler
Jul 2, 2012, 7:22:14 PM7/2/12
to
your supposed god swill?
>
> besides that, God does not hear,
> let alone respond to the prayers of the
> unredeemed, Ps.66:18 for example.
and downright lies, why?
--
Smiler,
The godless one. a.a.# 2279
All gods are tailored to order. They're made to
exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 3, 2012, 12:23:10 AM7/3/12
to
Devils Advocaat
Jul 3, 2012, 12:25:49 AM7/3/12
to
Richo
Jul 3, 2012, 12:47:25 AM7/3/12
to
is "No."
8-(
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardson61ATgmailDOTcom
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
Richo
Jul 3, 2012, 12:56:53 AM7/3/12
to
On Jul 2, 4:09 pm, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
>
Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> a waiter?
>
completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
Pray to him, don't pray to him, believe in him, don't believe in him -
you have exactly the same outcome.
A completely non interventionist God is as good no god at all.
(And a completely non involved God is not the God of Christianity -
its a totally different concept of "God" )
Devils Advocaat
Jul 3, 2012, 1:57:08 AM7/3/12
to
Don Martin
Jul 3, 2012, 10:42:22 AM7/3/12
to
Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 5:47 am, Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo>
> On Jul 3, 5:47 am, Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>>> or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>>
>> Or ...God always answers prayers - its just that sometimes the answer
>> is "No."
>> 8-(
> So this god is not omnibenevolent.
--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
Dakota
Jul 3, 2012, 2:06:31 PM7/3/12
to
God Answers Prayers Of Paralyzed Little Boy
'No,' Says God
December 9, 1998 | ISSUE 34•19
http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-answers-prayers-of-paralyzed-little-boy,475/
or
http://tinyurl.com/23schj7
JTEM
Jul 3, 2012, 7:28:20 PM7/3/12
to
Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> Jesus taught them.
>
> Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
You're not reading. You're imposing. There is a difference. If you
> If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> Jesus taught them.
>
> Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
kept
reading further you would have seen this: If ye then, being evil,
know
how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
In other words, the context is "Holy Spirit," not a new Mercedes or a
medical favors.
Ironically, you're all at once exempting yourself from these passages,
but you're not a believer. You don't want and wouldn't accept the
thing that they're asking for.
In Christian tradition, the gift comes with God.
And, lets face it, you wouldn't accept that. And even if it weren't
true, and even if Christians thought it was automatic and you were
in fact healed, you'd just be here laughing at those Christians for
thinking they had anything to do with your totally natural spontaneous
remission...
"Oh, they happen all the time!"
Now I'm not saying that you're wrong to criticize religion or beliefs,
I'm just saying that you're not criticizing what they believe. You're
criticizing what you think they should believe, and then attributing
it all to them.
> > If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> > the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
> The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
is supernatural because there is no natural or scientific means of
producing it, you're saying that if its possible in the natural world
than
its impossible in the supernatural realm.
Now I'm not claiming to be an expert on the supernatural, but my
experience is that Ghosts, Spirits, Angels (etc) are often attributed
with natural as well as supernatural powers.
> Are you suggesting it isn't?
not seeing things from their perspective, you're not judging them by
their standards, and you're certainly not addressing any of their
arguments.
Do you need to? No. This is alt.atheism. But from my perspective,
if you're going to present an argument you might as well present
the best one you can, one that is effective on people who didn't
already agree with you before you spoke.
That's all.
If this isn't important to you, my remarks are largely irrelevant.
It's really up to you, what you want to accomplish.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
JTEM
Jul 3, 2012, 7:37:22 PM7/3/12
to
Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> That god cannot be omnibenevolent. Why worship such a god that doesn't
> give a damn about people?
People is plural, and even a lowly mortal like you or me can
> That god cannot be omnibenevolent. Why worship such a god that doesn't
> give a damn about people?
see the wisdom in taking a course of action that allows some
to suffer, when it benefits the group as a whole.
A child at the doctors can't understand how or why a needle
in their arm could be good for them. All they know is the pain.
We, as adults, can both wince at their pain and see the
greater good that results from it.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
JTEM
Jul 3, 2012, 7:39:13 PM7/3/12
to
Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
> completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
"I'll worship God just as soon as He starts worshiping me."
> Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
> completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
Of all the really bad arguments I've heard, completely incapable of
swaying a theist, this has got to be the worst...
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Smiler
Jul 3, 2012, 7:50:35 PM7/3/12
to
JTEM
Jul 3, 2012, 7:45:44 PM7/3/12
to
Jeanne Douglas <hlwdj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > > they give him presents.
>
> > Agree.
> Idiots. Why is it necessary to explain something to simple to you?
Not that it matters, but it's spelled "Too."
> > > The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> > > a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> > > they give him presents.
>
> > Agree.
> Idiots. Why is it necessary to explain something to simple to you?
> A little boy KNOWS his parents exist.
First you have to define "Parents." If you define them as merely
"Custodial Adults" then you've for a point....
Oops, no you don't. You'd have to define them as BOTH "Custodial
Adults" AND insist that nobody is allowed a different definition.
Come on, this is too simple...
If, say, a child refuses to believe that a pair of adults are really
their parents because these adults won't give them presents.....
There. So you are wrong.
> We have no reason to believe your god exists.
that one, too) was that he wasn't addressing anyone's idea of
God or prayer. He was inventing a position/view than attacking
others for following it (when they weren't).
> Is coming up with silly and faulty analogies a symptom of godbotism?
You're just digging that hole deeper & deeper....
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Free Lunch
Jul 3, 2012, 8:53:30 PM7/3/12
to
On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:37:22 -0700 (PDT), JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:
> Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
>> That god cannot be omnibenevolent. Why worship such a god that doesn't
>> give a damn about people?
>
>
>People is plural, and even a lowly mortal like you or me can
>see the wisdom in taking a course of action that allows some
>to suffer, when it benefits the group as a whole.
Possibly, but God is supposedly all powerful. If He cannot fix the
problems or refuses to, He isn't worthy of worship.
in alt.talk.creationism:
> Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
>> That god cannot be omnibenevolent. Why worship such a god that doesn't
>> give a damn about people?
>
>
>People is plural, and even a lowly mortal like you or me can
>see the wisdom in taking a course of action that allows some
>to suffer, when it benefits the group as a whole.
problems or refuses to, He isn't worthy of worship.
Richo
Jul 3, 2012, 8:57:59 PM7/3/12
to
one the least interesting.
8-)
Richo
Jul 3, 2012, 8:58:46 PM7/3/12
to
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/23schj7
I actually had that one in mind !
Andrew
Jul 3, 2012, 10:21:20 PM7/3/12
to
"JTEM" <jte...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ee0b1fe0-22d8-43c8...@b20g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
Excellent post.
Andrew
Jul 3, 2012, 10:22:02 PM7/3/12
to
"Richo" wrote in message news:34062697-0518-4b34...@m2g2000pbv.googlegroups.com...
> JTEM wrote:
your foolish reasoning was here exposed.
>
> Mark.
> JTEM wrote:
>> Richo wrote:
>> > Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
>> > completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
>>
>> "I'll worship God just as soon as He starts worshiping me."
>>
>> Of all the really bad arguments I've heard, completely incapable of
>> swaying a theist, this has got to be the worst...
>>
> Of all the possible responses you could have made to me I find this
> one the least interesting. 8-)
Nevertheless what he said was true, and
>> > Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
>> > completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
>>
>> "I'll worship God just as soon as He starts worshiping me."
>>
>> Of all the really bad arguments I've heard, completely incapable of
>> swaying a theist, this has got to be the worst...
>>
> Of all the possible responses you could have made to me I find this
> one the least interesting. 8-)
your foolish reasoning was here exposed.
>
> Mark.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 3:06:45 AM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 12:28 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> > Jesus taught them.
>
> > Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
>
> You're not reading. You're imposing. There is a difference. If you
> kept
> reading further you would have seen this: If ye then, being evil,
> know
> how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
> heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
>
> In other words, the context is "Holy Spirit," not a new Mercedes or a
> medical favors.
>
> Ironically, you're all at once exempting yourself from these passages,
> but you're not a believer. You don't want and wouldn't accept the
> thing that they're asking for.
Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> > Jesus taught them.
>
> > Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
>
> You're not reading. You're imposing. There is a difference. If you
> kept
> reading further you would have seen this: If ye then, being evil,
> know
> how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
> heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
>
> In other words, the context is "Holy Spirit," not a new Mercedes or a
> medical favors.
>
> Ironically, you're all at once exempting yourself from these passages,
> but you're not a believer. You don't want and wouldn't accept the
> thing that they're asking for.
And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
others?
Surely such unselfish prayers would be heard and answered?
>
> In Christian tradition, the gift comes with God.
>
> And, lets face it, you wouldn't accept that. And even if it weren't
> true, and even if Christians thought it was automatic and you were
> in fact healed, you'd just be here laughing at those Christians for
> thinking they had anything to do with your totally natural spontaneous
> remission...
>
> "Oh, they happen all the time!"
My condition isn't likely to undergo a "totally natural spontaneous
> In Christian tradition, the gift comes with God.
>
> And, lets face it, you wouldn't accept that. And even if it weren't
> true, and even if Christians thought it was automatic and you were
> in fact healed, you'd just be here laughing at those Christians for
> thinking they had anything to do with your totally natural spontaneous
> remission...
>
> "Oh, they happen all the time!"
remission".
Read up on Autosomal Polycystic Kidney Disease.
And I might respectfully point out your assumption that I would be
inclined to laugh at a believer in such a manner is out of order.
>
> Now I'm not saying that you're wrong to criticize religion or beliefs,
> I'm just saying that you're not criticizing what they believe. You're
> criticizing what you think they should believe, and then attributing
> it all to them.
You seem from this to be assuming I'm ignorant of, or at least limited
> Now I'm not saying that you're wrong to criticize religion or beliefs,
> I'm just saying that you're not criticizing what they believe. You're
> criticizing what you think they should believe, and then attributing
> it all to them.
in my understanding of Christianity.
I was born into and bought up in the faith, but in my upbringing I was
also encouraged to question things, especially where there was room
for doubt.
Let's not forget Thomas Didymus.
>
> > > If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> > > the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
> > The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
>
> Not in that way. You've got everything reversed. Where something
> is supernatural because there is no natural or scientific means of
> producing it, you're saying that if its possible in the natural world
> than
> its impossible in the supernatural realm.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
> > > If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> > > the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
> > The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
>
> Not in that way. You've got everything reversed. Where something
> is supernatural because there is no natural or scientific means of
> producing it, you're saying that if its possible in the natural world
> than
> its impossible in the supernatural realm.
>
> Now I'm not claiming to be an expert on the supernatural, but my
> experience is that Ghosts, Spirits, Angels (etc) are often attributed
> with natural as well as supernatural powers.
>
> > Are you suggesting it isn't?
>
> I'm suggesting that your argument is useless against theists. You're
> not seeing things from their perspective, you're not judging them by
> their standards, and you're certainly not addressing any of their
> arguments.
I disagree, having been a believer before becoming a pragmatic
> Now I'm not claiming to be an expert on the supernatural, but my
> experience is that Ghosts, Spirits, Angels (etc) are often attributed
> with natural as well as supernatural powers.
>
> > Are you suggesting it isn't?
>
> I'm suggesting that your argument is useless against theists. You're
> not seeing things from their perspective, you're not judging them by
> their standards, and you're certainly not addressing any of their
> arguments.
agnostic, I am more familiar with the point of view of those who
believe.
>
> Do you need to? No. This is alt.atheism.
It's also posted in alt.talk.creationism
> Do you need to? No. This is alt.atheism.
> But from my perspective,
> if you're going to present an argument you might as well present
> the best one you can, one that is effective on people who didn't
> already agree with you before you spoke.
>
> That's all.
>
> If this isn't important to you, my remarks are largely irrelevant.
>
> It's really up to you, what you want to accomplish.
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 3:34:46 AM7/4/12
to
JTEM
Jul 4, 2012, 5:47:25 AM7/4/12
to
Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
believe that God will heal you. But I also believe that you are
supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
That is my understanding.
> And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
> others?
and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
> Surely such unselfish prayers would be heard and answered?
> > And, lets face it, you wouldn't accept that. And even if it weren't
> > true, and even if Christians thought it was automatic and you were
> > in fact healed, you'd just be here laughing at those Christians for
> > thinking they had anything to do with your totally natural spontaneous
> > remission...
>
> > "Oh, they happen all the time!"
>
> My condition isn't likely to undergo a "totally natural spontaneous
> remission".
know you've got to believe...
> Read up on Autosomal Polycystic Kidney Disease.
>
> And I might respectfully point out your assumption that I would be
> inclined to laugh at a believer in such a manner is out of order.
God, turn you into a "Witness" for God? If so, post a challenge.
Experiment.
I suggest you pick a date some weeks or more in advance.
Ideally you would choose a date near (before) a medical
appointment where your condition will be checked/monitored.
Post multiple notices to all relevant newsgroups explaining
your medical needs and solicit prayers for your recovery on
the given date, at or near a given time.
State your agreement to admit that God is real and you are
a believer if a cure is had.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
JTEM
Jul 4, 2012, 5:50:56 AM7/4/12
to
Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> Possibly, but God is supposedly all powerful. If He cannot fix the
> problems or refuses to, He isn't worthy of worship.
Ah, but now you are using a variation of the "God has to think
> Possibly, but God is supposedly all powerful. If He cannot fix the
> problems or refuses to, He isn't worthy of worship.
like me, with my 98% DNA from a Chimpanzee, or he can't
exist" argument.
Remember, if God does exist than He is an all knowing, all
seeing, all powerful creator and you are 2% off from a
furry jungle midget that poops in it's own hand and throws
it at others.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Richo
Jul 4, 2012, 6:00:50 AM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 12:22 pm, "Andrew" <andrew.321re...@usa.net> wrote:
> "Richo" wrote in messagenews:34062697-0518-4b34...@m2g2000pbv.googlegroups.com...
Was it?
I don't see it myself.
And you give no explanation to back up your opinion.
Cheers, Mark
> "Richo" wrote in messagenews:34062697-0518-4b34...@m2g2000pbv.googlegroups.com...
I don't see it myself.
And you give no explanation to back up your opinion.
Cheers, Mark
Richo
Jul 4, 2012, 6:17:05 AM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 10:57 am, Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 9:39 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
> > > completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
>
> > "I'll worship God just as soon as He starts worshiping me."
>
Answering the odd deserving prayer is the equivalent of worshiping the
> On Jul 4, 9:39 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Richo <m.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Rather, there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful God who is
> > > completely uninterested in us, so why should we be interested in Him?
>
> > "I'll worship God just as soon as He starts worshiping me."
>
petitioner?
That's a very odd viewpoint.
> > Of all the really bad arguments I've heard, completely incapable of
> > swaying a theist, this has got to be the worst...
>
Cheers, Mark
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 7:38:33 AM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 10:47 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>
> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
Why are you presuming my position is exactly the same as yours?
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>
> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
I'm a pragmatic agnostic with a habit of questioning everything.
Are you the same?
>
> But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
> believe that God will heal you. But I also believe that you are
> supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
>
> In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
> being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
>
> That is my understanding.
>
> > And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
> > others?
>
> Of course. But, again, it is my understanding that a belief in
> and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
Well I did thank her for her intention to pray for me.
> But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
> believe that God will heal you. But I also believe that you are
> supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
>
> In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
> being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
>
> That is my understanding.
>
> > And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
> > others?
>
> Of course. But, again, it is my understanding that a belief in
> and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
And I didn't react in thought or word in any way that could have been
considered a rejection of what may come about.
wouldn't need to believe said god exists, I would know it exists.
Message has been deleted
Christopher A. Lee
Jul 4, 2012, 12:24:14 PM7/4/12
to
On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 04:38:33 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat
<manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 4, 10:47 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>>
>> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
>> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
>> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
>
>Why are you presuming my position is exactly the same as yours?
>
>I'm a pragmatic agnostic with a habit of questioning everything.
What is there to question about what is merely somebody else's
<manky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 4, 10:47 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>>
>> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
>> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
>> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
>
>Why are you presuming my position is exactly the same as yours?
>
>I'm a pragmatic agnostic with a habit of questioning everything.
religious belief?
In order to be agnostic, you have to have something to be agnostic
about, and the "question of God" only exists in the minds of its
believers.
They daren't ask it themselves but are so stupid they imagine
everybody else should.
>Are you the same?
>>
>> But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
>> believe that God will heal you.
>> But I also believe that you are
>> supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
>> In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
>> being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
religious paradigm to believe in it or even "be open to the idea".
Because they can't think outside it they don't even realise there is a
real world outside it.
But it does put them in the right frame of mind to help recovery.
Although it can have the opposite effect when they do it to
non-believers.
>> That is my understanding.
>>
>> > And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
>> > others?
>>
>> Of course. But, again, it is my understanding that a belief in
>> and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
>
>Well I did thank her for her intention to pray for me.
It causes problems the other way round when people who don't
understand that atheists don't pray (for obvious reasons) an ask them
to pray for a loved one in intensive care.
I made the mistake of asking them to give him my best wishes for his
recovery.
Even after 60+ years I have no idea what to say to theists under
circumstances like this.
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 12:55:31 PM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 5:24 pm, Christopher A. Lee <chrislee95...@comcast.net>
wrote:
direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
position is the same as mine.
especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity,
but also other religious and metaphysical claims - are unknown or
unknowable.
I apply that to any claim made from an apparent, or actual, position
of authority.
By way of example, a renal doctor declared that my CVC would have to
come out because "it will get infected".
My response was to ask "Really?" to which he replied "Of course it
will, everyone knows they always get infected".
I then said "Given that it's locked with trisodium citrate, and the
exit site and catheter hubs are subject to a rigorous antiseptic
protocol reduces the incidence of bloodstream related infections to
less than one event in one thousand days".
Which completely flummoxed him, and left him speechless.
encouraged to question things especially if there was room for doubt.
wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 04:38:33 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat
>
>
> <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 4, 10:47 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>
> >> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
> >> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
> >> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
>
> >Why are you presuming my position is exactly the same as yours?
>
> >I'm a pragmatic agnostic with a habit of questioning everything.
>
> What is there to question about what is merely somebody else's
> religious belief?
Pragmatics go where the facts lead them, and to go in the right
> >On Jul 4, 10:47 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>
> >> You realize that we've got two people here -- you and me --
> >> talking about a bible that neither one of us believes in, from
> >> a religion that neither one of us belongs to....
>
> >Why are you presuming my position is exactly the same as yours?
>
> >I'm a pragmatic agnostic with a habit of questioning everything.
>
> What is there to question about what is merely somebody else's
> religious belief?
direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
position is the same as mine.
>
> In order to be agnostic, you have to have something to be agnostic
> about, and the "question of God" only exists in the minds of its
> believers.
Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims -
> In order to be agnostic, you have to have something to be agnostic
> about, and the "question of God" only exists in the minds of its
> believers.
especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity,
but also other religious and metaphysical claims - are unknown or
unknowable.
I apply that to any claim made from an apparent, or actual, position
of authority.
By way of example, a renal doctor declared that my CVC would have to
come out because "it will get infected".
My response was to ask "Really?" to which he replied "Of course it
will, everyone knows they always get infected".
I then said "Given that it's locked with trisodium citrate, and the
exit site and catheter hubs are subject to a rigorous antiseptic
protocol reduces the incidence of bloodstream related infections to
less than one event in one thousand days".
Which completely flummoxed him, and left him speechless.
>
> They daren't ask it themselves but are so stupid they imagine
> everybody else should.
>
> >Are you the same?
>
> >> But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
> >> believe that God will heal you.
>
> Their pretend friend.
>
> >> But I also believe that you are
> >> supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
>
> Another figment of their imagination.
>
> >> In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
> >> being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
>
> They can't understand that you already have to be inside their
> religious paradigm to believe in it or even "be open to the idea".
>
> Because they can't think outside it they don't even realise there is a
> real world outside it.
>
> But it does put them in the right frame of mind to help recovery.
>
> Although it can have the opposite effect when they do it to
> non-believers.
I did point out earlier that I was raised in the faith, but was
> They daren't ask it themselves but are so stupid they imagine
> everybody else should.
>
> >Are you the same?
>
> >> But, yes, I do believe you are right. The Christians do actually
> >> believe that God will heal you.
>
> Their pretend friend.
>
> >> But I also believe that you are
> >> supposed to be open to/believe in the spirit.
>
> Another figment of their imagination.
>
> >> In other words, believing that God can cure you (or at least
> >> being open to the idea) is a condition of the cure.
>
> They can't understand that you already have to be inside their
> religious paradigm to believe in it or even "be open to the idea".
>
> Because they can't think outside it they don't even realise there is a
> real world outside it.
>
> But it does put them in the right frame of mind to help recovery.
>
> Although it can have the opposite effect when they do it to
> non-believers.
encouraged to question things especially if there was room for doubt.
>
> >> That is my understanding.
>
> >> > And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
> >> > others?
>
> >> Of course. But, again, it is my understanding that a belief in
> >> and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
>
> >Well I did thank her for her intention to pray for me.
>
> I usually do that unless it's particularly obnoxious.
>
> It causes problems the other way round when people who don't
> understand that atheists don't pray (for obvious reasons) an ask them
> to pray for a loved one in intensive care.
>
> I made the mistake of asking them to give him my best wishes for his
> recovery.
>
> Even after 60+ years I have no idea what to say to theists under
> circumstances like this.
A difficult one, and I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestion.
> >> That is my understanding.
>
> >> > And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
> >> > others?
>
> >> Of course. But, again, it is my understanding that a belief in
> >> and/or acceptance of God's healing gift is necessary.
>
> >Well I did thank her for her intention to pray for me.
>
> I usually do that unless it's particularly obnoxious.
>
> It causes problems the other way round when people who don't
> understand that atheists don't pray (for obvious reasons) an ask them
> to pray for a loved one in intensive care.
>
> I made the mistake of asking them to give him my best wishes for his
> recovery.
>
> Even after 60+ years I have no idea what to say to theists under
> circumstances like this.
duke
Jul 4, 2012, 4:49:52 PM7/4/12
to
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com>
wrote:
final decision is based on the greater good.
The dukester, American - American
********************************************
A vote for obama is a vote for the end of
democracy in America as we know it. Let the
rolling thunder guide your decision at the
ballot box to put an end to Imperial Obama.
May God bless America.
********************************************
wrote:
>So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
Only God knows. And only God knows the result of her prayers for you. God's
>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
final decision is based on the greater good.
The dukester, American - American
********************************************
A vote for obama is a vote for the end of
democracy in America as we know it. Let the
rolling thunder guide your decision at the
ballot box to put an end to Imperial Obama.
May God bless America.
********************************************
duke
Jul 4, 2012, 4:50:53 PM7/4/12
to
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>which a believer made the aforementioned promise.
wrote:
>> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>>
>> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>>
>> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
>> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
>> a waiter?
>
>That isn't what I'm saying at all. I merely recounted the event in
>> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
>> a waiter?
>
>which a believer made the aforementioned promise.
>>
>> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
>> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
>> they give him presents.
>
>> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
>> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
>> they give him presents.
>
>If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
>Jesus taught them.
>
>Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7 if you want to know why.
>Jesus taught them.
>
>>
>> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
>> the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
>> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
>> the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
>The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
>
>It is supposed to be the source of miracles.
>
>
>Are you suggesting it isn't?
The answer lies in the greater good as God sees it.
>Are you suggesting it isn't?
Mike Lovell
Jul 4, 2012, 4:57:24 PM7/4/12
to
On 2012-07-04, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> Only God knows. And only God knows the result of her prayers for you. God's
> final decision is based on the greater good.
That's strange because you claim to know. You say his decision is based
>>So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
>>or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> Only God knows. And only God knows the result of her prayers for you. God's
> final decision is based on the greater good.
on the greater good.
Are you God now? Actually that can't be right --- *you* exist :-)
--
Jews, Christians & Muslims
The content of your posts will show how much you
really believe God is looking over your shoulder
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 5:54:33 PM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 9:49 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com>
Your words contradict themselves.
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com>
Devils Advocaat
Jul 4, 2012, 5:56:20 PM7/4/12
to
On Jul 4, 9:50 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com>
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 2, 7:09 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> >> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> >> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> >> a waiter?
>
> >That isn't what I'm saying at all. I merely recounted the event in
> >which a believer made the aforementioned promise.
>
> >> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> >> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> >> they give him presents.
>
> >If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> >Jesus taught them.
>
> >Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7 if you want to know why.
>
> >> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> >> the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
> >The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
>
> >It is supposed to be the source of miracles.
>
> >Are you suggesting it isn't?
>
> The answer lies in the greater good as God sees it.
These words contradict part of the post you made moments earlier.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 2, 7:09 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > So did this good Christian woman remember her promise to pray for me,
> >> > or did she being advanced in years forget her promise to me?
>
> >> So you're saying that there can't be an all seeing, all knowing,
> >> all powerful creator God unless you can order him around like
> >> a waiter?
>
> >That isn't what I'm saying at all. I merely recounted the event in
> >which a believer made the aforementioned promise.
>
> >> The theist would argue that you are the spiritual equivalent to
> >> a little boy, insisting that he won't believe in his parents unless
> >> they give him presents.
>
> >If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
> >Jesus taught them.
>
> >Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7 if you want to know why.
>
> >> If the natural world doesn't work that way, why would you expect
> >> the Supernatural world to function like that?
>
> >The supernatural is supposed to be different to the natural world.
>
> >It is supposed to be the source of miracles.
>
> >Are you suggesting it isn't?
>
> The answer lies in the greater good as God sees it.
JTEM
Jul 4, 2012, 6:27:01 PM7/4/12
to
Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pragmatics go where the facts lead them, and to go in the right
> direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
> position is the same as mine.
It seems "Facts" are far more subjective than most people
> Pragmatics go where the facts lead them, and to go in the right
> direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
> position is the same as mine.
let on...
Human beings have a spiritual component. We have an
actual spiritual center within our brains. Spiritual experiences
have been produced by stimulating the brain under
laboratory conditions. This came as a surprise to no one
has humans had been producing the exact same spiritual
experiences at will, ingesting various natural compounds
("drugs," some might call them). Still other humans have
reported such spiritual experiences all on their own, without
the use of external stimulants.
The point is, and this is a fact, humans have an innate
Spiritual capacity.
It just so happens that some of the earliest evidence for
"Symbolic Thought" -- what made us fully modern
humans, and not just anatomically modern -- would be
prepared burials. And, yes, these are evidence for
the same Spiritual capacity we can't deny in humans
today.
Now, officially these prepared burials (and evidence for
Spirituality/Symbolic thought) go back to the Neanderthals
(Denisovans?), but there's evidence for them much further
back, with Heidelberg Man and the use of Red Ochre in
burials about 400,000 years ago....
So this is a fact. Humans have a built-in Spirituality. It is
innate. It's part of us. Now you can argue that innate
Spirituality no more requires the existence of a God than
our innate capacity for Love requires a giant, external
manifestation of love, but...
But it's there. We have it. And I've raised this fact many
times over the years only to have imbeciles deny it. Not
argue against it, not rationalize it away but just plain
deny it.
We have it. And that is a fact.
Religions, on the other hand, are external. They are not
innate. They give form and reason behind our innate
Spirituality, but at a brutal cost.
Thus, I see no use for organized religions, and not a lot
of value in debates over the existence of God. The fact
is, we are humans and we have Spirituality built into us.
We do. This is real. This isn't a matter up for debate, it's
not something that reasonable people can question. It's
in us, and the evidence tells us that it has been there
since our pre-modern ancestors.
Deal with it.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
JTEM
Jul 4, 2012, 6:29:55 PM7/4/12
to
Burkhard <b.scha...@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> You mean like, assuming they want to be worshipped,
> just because we carry so many insecurities with us
> that we find it absolutely fabulous when someone
> does it to us, and tells us permanently how great we
> are, how they appreciate us etc etc?
Yes, that too would be an example of someone
claiming that, in order to exist, an all seeing, all
knowing, all powerful creator God must think exactly
like the close genetic relative to a Chimpanzee.
Thank you.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
> You mean like, assuming they want to be worshipped,
> just because we carry so many insecurities with us
> that we find it absolutely fabulous when someone
> does it to us, and tells us permanently how great we
> are, how they appreciate us etc etc?
Yes, that too would be an example of someone
claiming that, in order to exist, an all seeing, all
knowing, all powerful creator God must think exactly
like the close genetic relative to a Chimpanzee.
Thank you.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Free Lunch
Jul 4, 2012, 9:13:14 PM7/4/12
to
On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:29:55 -0700 (PDT), JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:
So you agree that the God invented by Christianity is a joke.
in alt.talk.creationism:
Devils Advocaat
Jul 5, 2012, 1:15:35 AM7/5/12
to
On Jul 4, 11:27 pm, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pragmatics go where the facts lead them, and to go in the right
> > direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
> > position is the same as mine.
>
> It seems "Facts" are far more subjective than most people
> let on...
Are they really?
> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pragmatics go where the facts lead them, and to go in the right
> > direction you need to ask questions. I was only asking JTEM if his/her
> > position is the same as mine.
>
> It seems "Facts" are far more subjective than most people
> let on...
It's a word used to describe personal, subjective experiences that
otherwise would make no real sense in the world of objective reality
and experience.
And you cannot point out or identify this "spiritual centre" you claim
exists in the brain.
>
> Religions, on the other hand, are external. They are not
> innate. They give form and reason behind our innate
> Spirituality, but at a brutal cost.
>
> Thus, I see no use for organized religions, and not a lot
> of value in debates over the existence of God. The fact
> is, we are humans and we have Spirituality built into us.
> We do. This is real. This isn't a matter up for debate, it's
> not something that reasonable people can question. It's
> in us, and the evidence tells us that it has been there
> since our pre-modern ancestors.
If spirituality is built in as you assert, then where is it built in?
> Religions, on the other hand, are external. They are not
> innate. They give form and reason behind our innate
> Spirituality, but at a brutal cost.
>
> Thus, I see no use for organized religions, and not a lot
> of value in debates over the existence of God. The fact
> is, we are humans and we have Spirituality built into us.
> We do. This is real. This isn't a matter up for debate, it's
> not something that reasonable people can question. It's
> in us, and the evidence tells us that it has been there
> since our pre-modern ancestors.
If it's not a matter up for debate, why post such a long screed about
it?
If there is evidence that it's built in, where is that evidence?
What part of the brain contains the spiritual centre?
>
> Deal with it.
You won't wriggle off of the hook so easily.
Are you a pragmatic agnostic?
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/
JTEM
Jul 5, 2012, 5:32:23 AM7/5/12
to
> Spirituality, to use your word, isn't a proven fact.
>
> It's a word used to describe personal, subjective experiences that
> otherwise would make no real sense in the world of objective reality
> and experience.
well as by chemical stimulants, not to mention countless reports
of entirely natural experiences. It easily meets or surpasses any
scientific standard for "Real."
Presently you are no better than a Fundy, whose sliding standard
of proof can never be satisfied. I mean, in my experience, I would
not be able to prove the existence of the Sun to a young earth
creationist. Literally. Their standard of proof would never allow it.
The best I could hope for would be for them to ACCEPT the existence
of the sun. Now, getting back to you...
Human spirituality is scientifically established not only by the
chemical & magnetic inducements (I've even heard of others
using electrodes), not only by the reports but by the Archaeology.
Our earliest ancestors left ZERO evidence for symbolic thought,
and it is widely believed that this is because they lacked the
capacity, that symbolic thought is an only recent development.
Well, one of the very first indicators of symbolic thought (and by
that I mean the very first, the very oldest) are prepared burials,
evidence for Spirituality.
At this point you might as well claim that there is no evidence
for anger.... that anger's existence isn't a fact, that it's all just
subjective opinion....
> And you cannot point out or identify this "spiritual centre" you claim
> exists in the brain.
the level of the fundies. What you and the fundies don't understand
is just because medical science can't do something today doesn't
mean that it can't be done.
Science will continue to advance.
After all, why are you and the fundies picking today, the present?
Why don't you claim that what wasn't possible 100 years ago is
forever impossible?
Well, we both know why....
But, never mind, because you're wrong. Researchers are claiming
that they have uncovered the "Spiritual Center of the Brain."
> If spirituality is built in as you assert,
innate capacity for anger...
Did you even try and Google it? Seriously. Are you simply
autorejecting an uncomfortable reality, or do you try to
Google it first, try to disprove me, and then fell on this
blanket rejection of reality as a last resort?
Read your post. That's what fundies look like.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
duke
Jul 5, 2012, 6:54:59 AM7/5/12
to
On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 00:06:45 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Jul 4, 12:28 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
>> > Jesus taught them.
>>
>> > Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
>>
>> You're not reading. You're imposing. There is a difference. If you
>> kept
>> reading further you would have seen this: If ye then, being evil,
>> know
>> how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
>> heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
>>
>> In other words, the context is "Holy Spirit," not a new Mercedes or a
>> medical favors.
>>
>> Ironically, you're all at once exempting yourself from these passages,
>> but you're not a believer. You don't want and wouldn't accept the
>> thing that they're asking for.
>
>Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
Physical or spiritual. For you or for the greater good - physical or spiritual.
>And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
>others?
>Surely such unselfish prayers would be heard and answered?
Do you possess a valid reason by you in particular should be healed? Does your
life offset or justify faith healing?
wrote:
>On Jul 4, 12:28 am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Devils Advocaat <mankygo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If that is what a theist would argue, then they don't believe what
>> > Jesus taught them.
>>
>> > Read Luke 11:9 and Matthew 7:7
>>
>> You're not reading. You're imposing. There is a difference. If you
>> kept
>> reading further you would have seen this: If ye then, being evil,
>> know
>> how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
>> heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
>>
>> In other words, the context is "Holy Spirit," not a new Mercedes or a
>> medical favors.
>>
>> Ironically, you're all at once exempting yourself from these passages,
>> but you're not a believer. You don't want and wouldn't accept the
>> thing that they're asking for.
>
>Isn't one of the gifts of the spirit the gift of healing?
>And don't many believers pray for healing, not for themselves but for
>others?
>Surely such unselfish prayers would be heard and answered?
life offset or justify faith healing?
duke
Jul 5, 2012, 2:09:34 PM7/5/12
to
On Wed, 4 Jul 2012 14:56:20 -0700 (PDT), Devils Advocaat <manky...@gmail.com>
wrote:
No, it doens't.
wrote:
Virgil
Jul 5, 2012, 6:39:18 PM7/5/12
to
Personal testimony, unless backed up by objective physical evidence, is
highly unreliable.
--
highly unreliable.
--
JTEM
Jul 5, 2012, 8:23:59 PM7/5/12
to
Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> So you agree that the God invented by Christianity is a joke.
I agree that you are not Christianity, that the people
> So you agree that the God invented by Christianity is a joke.
I've been responding to don't claim to be Christian, and
none of us here get to define Christianity.
We only represent ourselves.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Free Lunch
Jul 5, 2012, 8:35:20 PM7/5/12
to
On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 17:23:59 -0700 (PDT), JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:
Based on your previous comment, it appears that you think the God of
Christianity is a joke, a false god invented to deceive.
>
>-- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/
in alt.talk.creationism:
Christianity is a joke, a false god invented to deceive.
>
>-- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/
Mike Lovell
Jul 5, 2012, 8:59:06 PM7/5/12
to
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Hash: SHA1
On 2012-07-06, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So you agree that the God invented by Christianity is a joke.
>
> I agree that you are not Christianity, that the people
> I've been responding to don't claim to be Christian, and
> none of us here get to define Christianity.
Indeed, it's already defined.
A follower of the teachings of Jesus.
> We only represent ourselves.
Also indeed! We do.
However we can determine for the behavior of self-proclaimed Christians
if they fit the definition or not.
What they believe to be the teachings of Jesus (contained within the
Bible) are available for us to review.
If we find them violating these teachings then it's not compatible with
being a Christian - Then we can call them on this.
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Hash: SHA1
On 2012-07-06, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So you agree that the God invented by Christianity is a joke.
>
> I agree that you are not Christianity, that the people
> I've been responding to don't claim to be Christian, and
> none of us here get to define Christianity.
A follower of the teachings of Jesus.
> We only represent ourselves.
Also indeed! We do.
However we can determine for the behavior of self-proclaimed Christians
if they fit the definition or not.
What they believe to be the teachings of Jesus (contained within the
Bible) are available for us to review.
If we find them violating these teachings then it's not compatible with
being a Christian - Then we can call them on this.
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JTEM
Jul 6, 2012, 4:14:03 AM7/6/12
to
Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> Based on your previous comment, it appears that
> you think the God of Christianity is a joke, a false
> god invented to deceive.
I believe the bible is a joke. Jesus was invented
> Based on your previous comment, it appears that
> you think the God of Christianity is a joke, a false
> god invented to deceive.
as Roman-approved alternative to the Jews, the
O.T. only dates to the 6th century or so.
-- --
http://jtem.tumblr.com/
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