Atheists and Lack of Faith
Reverend Lovejoy
news:4d6c3e8.02080...@posting.google.com...
> First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Faith starts where reason ends. I've reasoned that there is no god, and it
requires no faith to hold such a position.
--
"This so called new religion is nothing
but a pack of weird rituals and chants
designed to take away the money of
fools. Let us say the Lord's prayer 40
times, but first let's pass the collection
plate."
Reverend Lovejoy, The Simpsons
Liz
<4d6c3e8.02080...@posting.google.com>, wrote:
>First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
>what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
>It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
>faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
>Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Once upon a time there was a little boy who believed in a magical being
that lived in the sky. When other people pointed out to the little boy
that there was no evidence of his magical being, the little boy replied to
all who doubted, "I have faith." This made the little boy very happy.
The other people who never saw any sign of the magical being nor any
indication that the magical being ever existed except in the little boy's
imagination, shook their heads and walked away.
The End
Liz #658 BAAWA
Liz, you like most people do not want to have faith in
things which have no basis in reality. -- josalt
Mike Smith
=Once upon a time there was a little boy who believed in
=a magical being that lived in the sky. When other people
=pointed out to the little boy that there was no evidence
=of his magical being, the little boy replied to all who
=doubted, "I have faith." This made the little boy very
=happy.
=The other people who never saw any sign of the magical
=being nor any indication that the magical being ever
=existed except in the little boy's imagination, shook
=their heads and walked away.
=The End
Nice story. Unfortunately, the world is largely made
up of these little boys.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"He that doubteth is damned." - Romans 14:23
Verl
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
Our position on what? If you mean religion, then you need not have wasted
your time here, you could have just looked up the word atheist in the
dictionary.
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
I do not have faith for my lack of faith. I have reason. But if by faith you
mean trust, then my faith in things is only through reason. I have faith in
my family, my doctor and so on, but not blind faith. I trust them because
they have proven themselves.
Verl
johac
Andrew...@hotmail.com (Andrew) wrote:
> First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
For me, faith alone is meaningless. I want evidence.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
It was the schoolboy who said: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910).
Marc Fleury
>It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
>faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
>Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Sure. Different definitions of "faith".
Besides which, who said that we have "faith" that we are correct? I
*believe* that I'm right, but I don't have "faith" in it.
--
Marc.
Comics begin at panel 1 ... PANEL1.COM
George Ricker
> First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Try this. I first posted it in 1995. (I've made a few minor editorial
changes.)
Begin post ______________________________________
Since I have been monitoring this newsgroup, I've noticed one of the most
common tactics used by the religious to attack those of us who aren't
seems to be to equate atheism and theism with the assertion that atheists
must have "faith" in their beliefs just as theists do.
Some have noted, quite rightly, that atheism denotes an absence of belief
rather than a belief, therefore no "faith" is required. In other words,
if I don't believe in gods, I'm not articulating any belief about gods,
just the absence of one. Again, I need no "faith" to support a
non-belief.
Needless to say, that answer never seems to satisfy the faithful, and the
discussion often degenerates, after that point has been made, into
something like "Do to!" "Do not!" "Yes, you do!" "No, I don't!" followed
by various comments on ancestral lineage and the like. :-)
Since most of this flack seems to come from members of the flock who have
wandered in from alt.christnet or one of the other religion newsgroups
and apparently have nothing better to do than to harrass people who don't
share their point of view (all this in the name of saving our
non-existent souls so that we will make it to their non-existent
heaven), I thought I would try offer them some food for thought - even
though I suspect, when it comes to that particular menu item, most of
them are always dieting.
Faith, in the context of the Christian religion at least, is "the
evidence of things not seen." It also might be described as the firm
belief in that which cannot be proven. Faith then is a substitute for
evidence. In fact, faith works best when there is no evidence. Evidence
can be examined and weighed. It can be analyzed. It can be shown to be
true or false.
Faith suffers none of those deficiencies. The True Believer cannot be
challenged on points of faith because they are the heart and soul of his
or her belief. And in any argument or discussion with a True Believer,
sooner or later, what is presented always will come down to a matter of
faith. Many Christians will tell you that you cannot comprehend the
reality of their deity or their religion until you have faith. Once you
have it, of course, everything will be made clear and your doubts will
disappear. And how do you get it? Well ... you have to ask the deity for
it. In other words, if you believe, belief becomes possible - or
something like that.
Obviously, those of us, like myself, who thought we were Christians at
one time in our lives really weren't. Our faith wasn't strong enough
else we never would have left. I've used that line of thought in sermons
myself, back when I was in that business.
And the purpose for insisting that atheists must have faith too (because
they don't have certain knowledge about anything either) is to reduce the
entire discussion to a debate about points of view. "I choose to believe
this. You choose to believe that." Of course, the religious really don't
believe that the god/no-god question is just a matter of point-of-view.
But once they get us to concede that "yes, everybody has faith in
something," they're in a much stronger debating position. Besides it's a
convenient way to escape those inconvenient questions about evidence and
contradictions and the like.
Needless to say, none of us claims absolute certainty about much, if
anything at all - at least, not if we're rational. But most of us act as
though we were reasonably certain about quite a few things. That's
because most of us accept the axiom that "reality exists." We observe
that we interact with the world around us. It appears, according to our
perceptions, to be there. We can have impact on it, and it can have
impact on us. While the idea that reality exists may require faith - if
you want to call it that - it is an axiom that is constantly being
verified every moment we are alive and can always be revised if the
evidence changes.
Beyond that axiom, however, no faith is required.
If I board an airplane to fly from my home in Florida to Chicago or New
York, it's not an act of faith at all. I will choose an airline that has
a good safety record. I will assume that the plane has been serviced
properly and that a competent crew is in charge of the flight. I may be
mistaken in those assumptions, but making them is not an act of faith,
because they are based on the evidence that this airline has made similar
flights in the past without mishap. Therefore the assumptions seem
reasonable. If I demand absolute certainty that the airplane will not
crash, I will never make the flight. No such proof is possible.
All of us make such decisions every day of our lives. Again, if we
demanded absolute proof that those decisions would yield the intended
results, living would be impossible. However, such decisions are not
dependent upon faith. They are based, rather, on such evidence as is
available to us and are the result of our assessment of that evidence and
our decision to act on it.
If, on the other hand, I allowed my favorite guru, Baba Wan Swami, to
convince me that, through his telekinetic powers, he would be able to
support me in midair if I jumped off the edge into the gorge of the Grand
Canyon, that would be an act of faith. I would be accepting the guru at
his word, asking for no evidence, and basing my decision on no rational
foundation. It would be, quite literally, "a leap of faith" - probably my
last.
I doubt many atheists would take the swami at his word. But theists do
something similar every day of their lives.
In my view, all gods and all religions are human inventions. I find
plenty of evidence in support of that idea and see no reason to think
otherwise. "The evidence of things not seen" does nothing to alter that
view. Nor is any "faith" required to sustain it.
--
George Ricker
Ignorance isn't really bliss, but for some it sure seems that way.
Copyright 1995 by George A.Ricker
____________________________
Does that help???
--
George Ricker
"Goddidit" is not an answer. It is a pietistic
method of begging all questions.
Liz
<zu059.483$Hr.3...@kent.svc.tds.net>, wrote:
>Liz <ehu...@donotspam.com> wrote:
>
>=Once upon a time there was a little boy who believed in
>=a magical being that lived in the sky. When other people
>=pointed out to the little boy that there was no evidence
>=of his magical being, the little boy replied to all who
>=doubted, "I have faith." This made the little boy very
>=happy.
>=The other people who never saw any sign of the magical
>=being nor any indication that the magical being ever
>=existed except in the little boy's imagination, shook
>=their heads and walked away.
>=The End
>
>Nice story. Unfortunately, the world is largely made
>up of these little boys.
So the little boy called together all the other little boys who believed in
the same unevidenced magical being who lived in the sky and attacked the
people who shook their heads and walked away. The large group of little
boys either killed or forced confessions of faith from those who did not
believe. This made the little boys very happy.
The End
Is that more realistic?
Liz #658 BAAWA
Many people never grow up. They stay all their lives with
a passionate need for external authority and guidance,
pretending not to trust their own judgement. - Alan Watts
quibbler
> First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
should be. Theists come up with endless permutations of this basic
assertion.
Here is one of the fundamental things that Mr. Setter is overlooking.
"Faith" has a very different meaning in a secular context than it does
in religious contexts. I have faith that my car will start in the
morning. But it is not an unshakable or blind faith. It is grounded
in material empiricism and objective reality. But I do not stay up
nights worrying about whether it will start because it has been tested
and has proven to be fairly reliable in the past. Religious faith on
the other hand often must be blind and unshakable. That is, no amount
of evidence can influence it and the possibility that the belief is
wrong is considered a moral failing to even contemplate. The
difference here is between "faith" with a small "f" (secular faith)
and Faith with a capital "F" (religious, supernatural faith). The
point is that atheists can and do have "faith" in all kinds of things,
but it does not rise to the level of Faith (of the religious kind).
Therefore, it seems to me that when you say atheists have "faith in
their lack of faith", all this really means is that we have
probabilistic confidence, based upon evidence and argumentation that
that particular religions and their definitions of god(s) are flawed,
false, human creations.
I will give you some examples. I don't believe that Jesus was divine,
nor do I believe that he is coming back after a "brief" 2000 year
respite in heaven. Can this be tested? Sure. If Jesus were really
divine then we would expect that his teachings would be free from
error. They are not. They are laughably filled with gaffes which he
certainly should have known people would look at in 2000 years and
recognize as errors. The apologetic that he made these errors to be
"understood" by the people and culture of his time presumes that god
could not teach in a way that would be both understandable and
factually/logically accurate and in any case would still necessitate
that we discard much of what the bible tells us about him. The bible
is full of mythical, figurative language, failed prophecy and faulty
science and it is this same bible that predicts the coming of a
messiah, a final judgment, etc. Supposedly jesus only operated for
about a year and showed no particular regard for healing the sick or
writing his teachings before his early thirties. Does that squandered
life sound like something that an incarnate god would do? If Jesus
doesn't hurry up and come back in another couple hundred years we will
be living on Mars, the moon and space colonies. His geocentric
judgment won't even touch us. Of course I don't expect that some
people will even give up dogged belief in religion. But it becomes
less and less tenable as anything other than an ancient, ignorant
custom.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Where specifically do you see atheists deny that they lack all faith
of any kind? It is Faith (in religious, supernatural things) which
atheists do not profess.
maky m.
> First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
well. i have "faith" that when i throw an apple into the air, it will
fall down. why? because my senses have convinced my brains that i
should expect the apple to fall. if you kindly devise a method for me
to use my senes to convince my brains to have "faith" in whatever god
you profess, i will obligue. otoh, if what you have for me is ontology
and bible-thumping, i have a few proofs against those...
Denis Loubet
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
You come up to me and say "There's a god."
I say "I don't believe you."
Where's the faith I'm supposed to be displaying?
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Chani
"Raptor514" <Rapt...@Never-Spam-Me.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:z9W49.1244$Ue7....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
> "Andrew" <Andrew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4d6c3e8.02080...@posting.google.com...
> > First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> > what your (the Atheist) position is.
> >
> > It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> > faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> > Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
>
No biggey, everyone must line the palm of Charon and cross the River Styx,
everyone. So, we are all going to Hades!! Hello Cerebus!!
--
Chani
atheist #1118
Head of the EAC! Why? Because I still say so!!
overli...@sbcglobal.net
>
> Raptor514
>
Automort
>Hello Cerebus!!
I like dogs. I can hardly wait. I've seen three legged dogs, but never one with
3 heads.
Inpri
>From: Andrew...@hotmail.com (Andrew)
>Date: 8/9/02 2:57 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <4d6c3e8.02080...@posting.google.com>
>
>First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
>what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
>It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
>faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
>Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
You are begging the question, and are also using the false "prove the negative"
argument. Atheists are not obligated to prove a negative; those making a claim
that something exists (gods) have the obligation of providing proof. What you
are saying is comparable to criticising someone for not believing in Santa
Claus, and holding their disbelief as "unproveable".
Mike Smith
=So the little boy called together all the other little boys who
=believed in the same unevidenced magical being who lived
=in the sky and attacked the people who shook their heads
=and walked away. The large group of little boys either killed
=or forced confessions of faith from those who did not believe.
=This made the little boys very happy.
=The End
=
=Is that more realistic?
Yeah.
Apostate
On Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:47:02 -0400, Marc Fleury <marcf...@sympatico.ca> reported:
>Andrew...@hotmail.com (Andrew) wrote:
>
>>It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
>>faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
>>Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
>
I know damned well that I am right, in asserting that I hold
no belief(s) in any deity(-ies). No faith required, whatsoever.
Anyone who wants to demonstrate the invalidity of my not
holding such beliefs, has the same burden to produce proof as
does the poly-water theorist, or the phlogiston theorist.
Everything I'm aware of that needs explanation, can be at
least as well explained without gawds as with them, and the
'without' version avoids the unfounded mystery of where the
hell the gawds came from.
By the way, you demonstrate amply that you do not, in fact,
understand what you claimed to understand about (The Atheist)
position. It is unlikely that you have bothered to read more than
a handful of postings by atheists, in view of this deficiency in
your background on the subject.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by vernon; NEW! IMPROVED! plonked by Lani_girl
I doubt, therefore I might be.
God
> what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
> faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
Well, what do you suggest? That we have faith that faith in god is
correct? Either way both are faiths right?
Faith is god is more closer to "Blind Faith". Our faith in lack of
faith in god is more rooted in rational observation of life around us.
God.
Clothaire
>First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
>what your (the Atheist) position is.
>
>It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
>faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
>Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
>>>>>>>>>>
Go to any book on logic. Lookup <equivocation>.
Wayne Delia
John Hattan wrote:
>
> Andrew...@hotmail.com (Andrew) wrote:
>
> >First, I have been reading this board for quite some time, so I know
> >what your (the Atheist) position is.
> >
> >It strikes me as bizarre that Atheists describe themselves as lacking
> >faith in God, yet they have faith that their lack of faith is correct.
> >Can someone reconcile this with the Atheist denial of having faith?
>
> It strikes me as bizarre that bald people describe themselves as lacking
> hair, yet they actually do have non-hair, which is a kind of hair. Can
> someone reconcile this with the bald man's denial of having hair?
What is all this prejudice and discrimination against bald men? Haven't
you heathens learned yet that God punishes bald-men-mockers with
bear-mauling? Furthermore, it's not me that's in denial about my, oh,
about 75% baldness. I told my wife that I had a full head of non-hair
and she laughed me right out of the kitchen. And I got nothing but
razzberries and Bronx cheers from my two children. So I'm having a
crisis of lack-of-faith in your non-hair resolution to this problem.
--
Wayne Delia, pb1...@banet.net
Delta Iota Chapter Advisor, Phi Kappa Sigma at Marist College
"Look me in the eye and tell me if you see a trace of fear."
(Joe Jackson, "Look Sharp")
Chani
"Automort" <auto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020810152237...@mb-mc.aol.com...
Well then, you have never been to Hogworts, I see!! :-) Of course, that
three headed dog was names Fluffy.