Why is it that some people don't believe in God?
Tom Brutin
Hey,
I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
most-hated questions here.
I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
information about the subject.
Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
Tom Brutin
raven1
<tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe?
The same reasons most theists dismiss other "gods" than their own as
mythical; atheists just take it one "god" further.
>Also, why do others believe?
Mainly because most theists are raised to accept their particular
brand of religion from birth, and are discouraged from questioning it
in any way.
John Hattan
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
Because there's no objective supporting evidence for the existence of
such a being.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
jo...@thecodezone.com http://www.freespeech.org/shatner
Alex
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
A good place to start would be to read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/071674161X/o/qid=981842352/sr=8-1/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_1/105-9785058-6359965
It's now in paperback for only 12$ at amazon.
Woden
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
Welcome, Tom.
While you might get some interesting responses in this newsgroup, you also
have to consider a high BS factor in any newsgroup. I would suggest some
basic research into the subject (libraries, etc.) On the internet, you
might start at this site:
Now, I will give you my personal answer as to why I do not believe in any
gods.
1. There is no concrete, verifiable, objective evidence for any god
or any other supernatural phenomenon. Although the lack of evidence is not
proof in itself that gods don't exist, it is a strong indicator.
2. All the definitions of gods have internal inconsistencies, they
lead to logical contradictions and absurdities, which logically leads to the
conclusion there are no gods.
3. Each god a person claims is real, can be shown to be no different
from all the other gods that are rejected as myth and legends. Which makes
it likely that all gods are mythical creations of human imagination.
4. There is no more reason to believe in gods than there is to
believe that the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, elves, dragons, etc. are
real.
5. All the so called "spiritual" experiences that people describe
that lead them to believe in gods are subjective and personal in nature.
They are like beauty, truth, good, evil, etc in that they are subjective
human evaluations of how an individual feels and interprets the world around
them.
In summary, while there is no absolute proof that gods don't exist, there is
no logical or practical reason to suspect that they do. The whole "god is
real" hypothesis is found to be an inaccurate and non-useful representation
of reality.
Now as to why others believe. I suspect that there are a number of reasons.
1. Lifelong indoctrination and brainwashing. From the time they are
born, most people are taught, directly and indirectly that there are some
gods and what these gods are like and what they should believe about these
gods.
2. This set of beliefs forms a crutch for many people. It offers
them a way of dealing with a world they can't fully understand or cope with.
3. There are some who believe as part of their maneuvering to obtain
power, wealth and control. This is perhaps most prevalent in large
organized religions.
4. Some people have accepted the idea of god and live with it without
any critical questioning or analysis.
5. Some people have experiences that they can't explain or affect
them so deeply that it leads them to conclude a god was involved and they
believe in this god.
6. I'm sure there are other reasons as well, but I can't think of any
at this minute.
Good luck.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Jimmy Mac
I would only have to add "Conform or be cast out."
Woden
"Jimmy Mac" <Spam...@bsbbs.com> wrote in message
news:3A85BD27...@bsbbs.com...
> Very well said Woden.
>
> I would only have to add "Conform or be cast out."
Thanks. Like I said, I couldn't think of any more at the time. Maybe I'll
save the post and find a use for it again sometime.
Skypher
From: "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com
Date: 2/10/01 1:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>
Hey,
Tom Brutin
Skypher replies :
I believe in God because I don't believe life was/is an accident or came about
from some unknowledgeable, meaningless reaction. I also believe in God because
of the automatic responses to good and evil that occurs in all species. I also
believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
LP
<tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
Viruses of the Mind
by Richard Dawkins
http://www.santafe.edu/~shalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind.html
Be sure to read part 3
Also, here is a web page about a very interesting book on the subject.
http://www.godpart.com/index.html
Whirl_pool
#1439
Matthias Weiss
Well, you just explain "God" to me so that I know exactly what it is and
what it is not, and I'll reconsider my doubts.
I don't belief in God because I consider the concept ill-defined, thus
unlikely to refer to any aspect of reality.
As to "Religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us" -- I
have an education, I have a career, I have health, I have a fiancee, I
have culture, I get along with almost all my fellow humans, I do not
cause gratuitous suffering, I seek to help within my modest abilities --
briefly explain to me what I'm missing out on.
Matthias Weiss.
Karl E. Taylor
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
theist that gods are real and/or fact."
So, with out evidence, objective evidence, I do not accept by default
the existence of gods. No matter what they are named, or who believes
in them. To me, that is what it means to be an atheist.
Now, why do people believe in gods, simple. They are afraid. Afraid of
the dark, the unknown, and death. To them, they can not accept the idea
of the universe existing with out the spark of their life continuing
beyond death. Problem, what happens beyond death? Religion offers the
answers they seek. But only if you follow the rules. Obey or burn
baby. That is the premise of *most* fanatical religions, including
christianity. However, not all religions in the world can be the true
religion. This then begs the question, is it possible that they are all
wrong? The default position is yes, they are all wrong. You can not
know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the religion you choose is the
absolute true and honest religion of the world. And yet, most of them
claim to be.
To understand religion, think of what you fear. Then, come up with a
nice fantasy story to cancel out those fears and you now have a
religion. Human beings have been doing this since they climbed out of
the trees and started living in social groups. It is unfortunate that
the primitive superstions of our ancestors are still trying to guide our
lives.
For some of us, we have grown up, and left Santa Claus in the bin of
childhood.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
then they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor ktay...@yahoo.com
A.A #1143 ULC Minister
Home School Educator for Computer Science
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
Karl E. Taylor
evidence to support your gods, but you still believe.
And you also try to push your belief on to others. That is not your
place, but you think it is anyway.
Chris Brown
Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
Isn't that the sort of thing they used to tell those tied to a stake
for believing in the wrong flavour of the Christian god as they lit
the bonfire?
--
/* _ */main(int k,char**n){char*i=k&1?"+L*;99,RU[,RUo+BeKAA+BECACJ+CAACA"
/* / ` */"CD+LBCACJ*":1[n],j,l=!k,m;do for(m=*i-48,j=l?m/k:m%k;m>>7?k=1<<m+
/* | */8,!l&&puts(&l)**&l:j--;printf(" \0_/"+l));while((l^=3)||l[++i]);}
/* \_,hris Brown -- Any top-posted replies will be ignored. */
Mike Smith
= I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
= religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
= But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
= is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
= why do they not believe?
No rational reason to believe.
= Also, why do others believe?
They were taugh to believe from childhood.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
(Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the
vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood
of the wicked." - Psalms 58:10
Lion
>Hey,
That's for horses.
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
You're backing a loser - wont jump, wont gallop.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
The biggest reason is acquired habit - sheep following other sheep.
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
I'd love to steer you in the right direction but you'll have trouble finding
anything to say that your assessors haven't read 100 times before. It's a
subject that has been milked to death.
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
I'm not out to get your goat but don't go looking for reasons the superstitious
will express, themselves, on the subject. Look instead at psychological trends:
things like dependence behaviour, peer pressure and guilt complexes.
>Tom Brutin
Lion
(aa 1871)
Tony Livernois
>Hey,
Hey, you!
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
Speaking for myself, I don't hate the question you pose at all. It demonstrates
a willingness to understand, which we see too little at alt.atheism.
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe?
In the interest of making it easy on myself, I'm going to cut-and-paste from
previous posts I've made to this newsgroup to try to answer your questions. I
hope you (and my fellow a.a. newsgroupers) don't mind.
The reason I don't believe boils down to a lack of evidence. Without evidence, I
have no reason to believe. (See also Ocam's Razor). In another thread on this
newsgroup, someone asked what kind of evidence I would need to believe in god.
My answer was:
[from previous thread]
* When someone provides physical evidence (something that is plainly visible,
that can bee seen) that god exists, preferably the real thing ...
* When someone can demonstrate internal consistency of god-belief within its own
dogma ...
* When someone can demonstrate external consistency with all world gods ...
* When someone can demonstrate that believing in god is not a result of humans
failing to explain their own existence ...
* When someone can demonstrate how the characteristics of "nothingness" don't
also apply to the concept of god ...
... THEN, I'll consider the evidence and see where it leads me.
Until then, I will continue to view religion and god-belief as a misguided,
simple-minded, self-delusional shortcut to viewing one's self as moral. And I
wll continue to view religion and god-belief as a thoughtless answer to the
question "Why are we here?"
[end]
In a long-dead thread on this newsgroup, I also wrote the following (referencing
why I specifically don't believe in Christianity):
[from previous thread]
I don't believe in the (I'll assume Xtian) Lord because:
(1) I've never seen, felt, tasted, or heard any physical or reasoned evidence
which proves it exists.
(2) I don't feel compelled to believe in it any more than I feel compelled to
believe in Santa Claus, Budda, Zeus, or The Amazing Space Boogie, maker of all
dance.
(3) Your Bible depicts your god as a monsterous, ugly, despicable, blood-thirsty
character, full of hate, vengence, and viloent actions inflicted on innocent
victims. I don't feel compelled to focus on the fluffy, nice portions of the
bible when there's so much ugly stuff.
(4) Your Bible depicts your Jesus as a spineless twit who never spoke out
against slavery or misogyny and whose "miracles" were randomly applied to
provide questionable value to mankind.
(5) The resurrection depicted in your Bible -- the very essence of Xtianity --
was of questionable value to mankind, told through a maze of contradictions, and
verified by no one outside of those who want to promote religion.
(6) The concept of sin and hell promoted by your "Lord" in the bible is as
callous and ugly as the Lord him/herself, an ominous threat intended to bully
the masses into sumission.
[end]
So, there you have several reasons why I don't believe in god and why I
specifically don't believe in the Christian god.
>Also, why do others believe?
Can't speak for them, but when I believed it was just easier to be that way. I
was raised a believer, my friends were believers, and that's just the way it
was. Eventually I started to think.
The following exchange might help explain why others believe and why atheists
disbelieve.
In another long-dead thread, dris...@juno.com provided some reasons to believe
when writing:
>What I don't understand is why anyone would not want to believe in God.
>Believing in God gives life meaning and significance. It gives a force for
>acting morally and ethically. It gives hope that miracles can happen to you.
> It gives you dignity that you are a special, deliberate creation with a
>purpose, not just a collection of matter that came about by accident on a
>tiny rock in the middle of nowhere. It puts our life in perspective by
>answering where we came from and where we are going when we die.
To which I responded:
[from previous thread]
The simple answer for not just wanting to believe is that we'd prefer to live in
reality, not in make-believe. We want to deal with life in the here and now, not
in some fantasy la-la land.
If you're totally lacking as a human being, then I could see how a being that
you can't hear, taste, smell, or feel could provide meaning and significance as
a human.
If you are so devoid of personal morality or ethics, I'm not surprised you rely
on some force outside of yourself to dictate them to you.
If you have not created an existence for yourself that's worthwhile, I'm not
surprised you're sitting around waiting for miracles to happen to you.
If you are not dignified and special already, I would have predicted that you'd
rely on some greater being that no one can prove to make you feel dignified and
special.
If you have so little sense of self, it's no surprise that you want to believe a
creation myth that makes you feel more special than the rest of the animal
kingdom.
If you're unhappy with your existence, I'm not suprised you want to believe some
incredible being "chose" you over nonbelievers.
Me? I prefer to think that I'm not devoid of personal morality and ethics. I
prefer to think I've created a worthwhile existence for myself. I prefer to be
act dignified. I prefer to behave in ways that make me special. I prefer to keep
a strong sense of self. I prefer to make my existence happy.
If I needed the ridiculous concept of god to provide me any of these things,
then my life would be meaningless.
Frankly, I don't know why anyone would want to believe in god.
[end]
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
Well, it should be obvious from the above thatI disagree strongly with your
premise that "religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us." I
don't believe that's true at all.
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
You're welcome. I hope it was actually helpful.
--
Tony
-----------------------------------------
| Atheist #1440 / BAAWA Wannabe Knight
| EAC VP of Human Performance
| "It's not a conspiracy if there aren't
| a lot of people left in the dark!"
-----------------------------------------
Ho Chi Ho Chi Zen
raven1 <psyched...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:40db8t0dscu39t4va...@4ax.com...
> The same reasons most theists dismiss other "gods" than
their own as
> mythical; atheists just take it one "god" further.
i think we phrase this the wrong way.
how about: all people are atheists, its just that some have
fallen and been corrupted by one or more religions.
--
Ho Chi Ho Chi Zen, CSF
unforgiven overlord of alt.discordia
the music is saying 'the goddess has dreadlocks'
All words are sacred and all prophets true - Crowley
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98b http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
icq #95443530
Chris Brown
Skypher <sky...@aol.com> wrote:
>I believe in God because I don't believe life was/is an accident or came about
>from some unknowledgeable, meaningless reaction. I also believe in God because
>of the automatic responses to good and evil that occurs in all species. I also
>believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
Doing a google search on "god of the gaps" may be instructive at this
point.
Ho Chi Ho Chi Zen
Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask
is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
higher being,
> why do they not believe?
1 - god is all knowing and therefore knows i will not
believe in him without evidence
2 - god is all powerful and could provide evidence
3 - no god has providd evidence
therefore, if any gods existed, they don't want me to
believe in them. so doing so would be against their will,
and i don't disobey higher powers.
> Also, why do others believe?
my first love did. of course, she was raised in a secluded
community, home-schooled (never taught biology or any other
religion's beliefs), not allowed to watch tv or read
church-approved books, etc.
she eventually ran away from home and is getting better.
Clayton Forno
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
Here's where your problem begins.....your being asked to write a thesis on a
false premise. It's like working for McDonalds and them having you write a
thesis on "Why the Big Mac is the most perfect and nutritional food in the
world."
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe?
Because we decide to live in the real world, not in the fantasy one most of
us were raised with. Most of us came about dismissing the absurdity of God
the same way I'm sure you did about dismissing the existence of Santa. It a
wonderful, warming, supporting idea that is useful in childhood, but when
you are an adult you put childish things away and take responsiblity for
yourself and your own world.
>Also, why do others believe?
Many people don't have the choice of not believing. Those raised in more
intense religious environments are quite literally unable to live without
the crutch of religion. They have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that
they don't have the strength to acccept the real world...they need the
delusion of religion to explain everything...it's much like a heroin
addiction...only much more intense and harder to break.
Others may just have a romantic ideal. They like the thought of magic and
miracles and the thought that even after they die they will continue on.
They know that the Bible or what ever text or ritual they live by is myth
and allegory, but belief still gives them a security blanket.
Stonefaced
Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
Some people do not believe in a higher being because their
parents never taught them to believe, or never wanted to learn,
or their culture teaches other things.
Also, religion is essentially about morality, then how does the
teachers justify the immorality of assuming religion is healthy and
good without any discussion. Surely anyone who is knowledgable
is aware of religious history, crusades, pogroms, are we too forget
our own history??? The simple fact is that without a criticism
of religion one cannot know if religion is healthy and good,
for too not know what something is not, is not to know it.
One cannot see, hear and speak evil if one doesn't know evil
for one could be speaking good as evil and evil as good.
But essentially religion is useful or people who would use it,
whether their 'use' of relligion is healthy or not, would
be heretical for it would be imposing some outside measure
upon religion. Therefore are you being asked to endorse
religion uncritised or account impartially on the subject of religion
with all the critics down through the ages.
Which came first humanity or religion? Did the first act of
mercy come before or after religion? Or was it the first
act of religion? Is humanity the true religion?
ArcticBonfire
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> some information about the subject.
1. United we stand, divided we fall. People who devoutly follow some organized
religion are part of a greater whole. Mormons prosper because they stick
together, help each other, and cooperate with each other. Atheists have
no cohesive unifying glue. Devoutly religious people have a supportive
community.
2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than atheists,
and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with helping the less
fortunate. Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less
human suffering.
4. Traditional organized religions foster family values and big families, so
religious communities grow faster than atheist communities. Seemingly,
religion bestows an evolutionary advantage. If this wasn't so, man would
not be as religious as he is.
5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
6 Many humans have an innate fear of death and belief in God helps the
deal with this fear as well as other fears.
7. Many humans have problems controlling their hypothalamus, the seat
of human appetites. Religion and the fear of a higher power helps these
people keep their hypothalamus in line. Religious people have fewer
problems with gambling, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and many
other visceral appetites that ruin the lives of many atheists.
8. Religion tends to strengthen family bonds and promotes development
of the human conscience. Of course, many atheists also promote
development of the conscience. A much higher percentage of
atheists are amoral than humans who believe in God.
9. Many humans have problems dealing with all the injustice in the
world. Again religion comes to the rescue and allows them to
10. Religion provides people with reward and pleasure for doing good deeds.
11. Religion promotes kindness and generosity to fellow members.
12. Christians try to teach morals to non-Christians.
13. Religion helps people deal with fear of unknown, and helps people
deal with situations they otherwise might not have the ability to
deal with. When people believe they have a special power on
their side, this gives them confidence and faith, and any football
coach can tell the importance of confidence and faith. And this
is true in many parts of life.
14. Human beings are in essence, non-physical, conscious beings
who have no direct knowledge of the physical world they perceive.
15. The perceived physical world is filled with paradoxes.
16. Science teaches that time had a beginning. And according
to our best scientific knowledge to date, the universe began
in a very, very, very low entropy state. Low entropy states
are very improbable. High entropy states are most probable.
Every since our universe began, entropy has been increasing,
and according to science it will continue to increase until
it reaches a near maximal state.
It is almost inconceivable that a universe should start off
in such a highly improbable state. This situation is so
difficult to understand that many of the brightest minds who
have studied this problem theorize a near unlimited amount
of other universes that can't be detected in order to account
for this strange situation. The atheists in this newsgroup
believe these scientists are foolishly mistaken.
17. According to modern science, there is no reason why the
constants in the universe are what they are. If these constants
were any different, life as we know it could not exist. So in
effect, it appears as if the universe were fine tuned for our
existence. Again many of the greatest scientific minds of
our time hypthesize the existence of near unlimited number
of other universes which can't be detected to explain this
situation. The atheists in this newsgroup believe these
scientists are foolishly mistaken.
18. Our universe has many other aspects to it which make
it appear unnatural, the abudance of conservation laws.
The fact that we see the universe as containing countless
different substances, but when we examine the universe
closely, it seems that everything in the universe is made
up of just one thing. All substances seem to be one,
all forces seem to be one, and at the beginning of the
universe there seems to have existed just one thing,
perhaps occupying no space, and containing all the
universe in some undifferentiated state. A thousand
years a religious figure defined God in exactly this
manner. He based this definition on a passage from
the bible.
19. There is little which prevents atheists from being vulgar,
crude, hurtful, vindictive, mean-spirited, and just plain
juvinile so a good number of atheists tend to imitate
Beavis and Butthead or Cartman on South Park. Many
atheists, in fact, worship these characters.
20. In ancient Greece, there was a group of people called
Sophists who played word games. They could prove
or disprove just about anything. Today, their tradition
is carried on by many atheists.
21. There are countless more reasons why people believe
God. Some people have witnessed things that appear
to be miracles. Some people long for meaning and
purpose. Some people can't bear to believe that loved
ones just disappear into nothingness when they die.
22. Christian countries have generally done better than
non-Christian countries.
23. Religion teaches non-material values. As the world
darkens, these values will become ever more
critical.
24. Humans enjoy holidays and family get togethers.
And religions offer more holidays.
25. Religion gives people a feeling of spiritual fulfiment,
makes people feel more secure, and fills personal
voids.
26. Religious affiliations offer more opportunities to
network with decent people.
27. Those in need can expect to receive more help
from those who are religious than from atheists.
28. Religious people tend to live happier more fulfilling
lives, and their children tend to do better.
I guess this is a rather short list. I am stopping now
because my arms are getting tired of typing. The other
atheists in this group, I am sure will give you equally
compelling reasons why people should be atheists.
Please note that broad generalizations cannot be
applied to specific individuals. There are exceptions
to every rule. Whenever I have made an unqualified
statement, the words "on average" should be inserted.
Just because women have larger breasts then men,
does not mean that some men don't have larger breasts
than some women. The atheists in this newsgroup are
fond of nit picking and pointing to exceptions. They
dispute that any generalization can ever be made about
any class, and in so doing dispute set theory, modern
medicine, actuarial tables and any and all criminal
profiles. They are for the most part a bunch of blow
hards, so take what they write in stride, and with a
grain of salt. If you are looking to verify any of my
claims, I suggest you use an Internet search engine
like google.com. It is not perfect, but it will serve your
purposes.
B.E. Nicholls
--
Power to Women! Choice! Integrity! and Rights!
raven1 <psyched...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:40db8t0dscu39t4va...@4ax.com...
B.E. Nicholls
--
Power to Women! Choice! Integrity! and Rights!
John Hattan <jo...@thecodezone.com> wrote in message
news:h6db8t84ik5q7l3hi...@4ax.com...
John 8599
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is
one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an
thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every
one of us.
Facts don't matter anymore then.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need
an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a
higher being,
> why do they not believe?
No evidence that such creatures exist or ever existed and the
whole concept is just so stupid.
> Also, why do others believe?
because of some failure in their lives.
--
J.H.
aa# 1886
Mike Painter
As for it being good for us read what Mark Twain wrote about the way
christians treated the Chinese in San Francisco.
Find out what happens to Jehovah Witnesses who smoke when the elders come.
Read of Calvin's little community and what happened to a kid there who
disobeyed his parents.
Read of Martin Luther's friend, the one who discovered the circulation of
blood.
Most people become atheists after thinking about it.
Most people who are christian or any religion never think about it.
Some remain believers after thinking about it.
Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason.
-- Martin Luther
"All the article of our christian faith, which God has revealed to us in His
Word, are in the presence of reason shearly impossible, absurd and false.
...Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has. ...She is the devils
greatest whore... a whore eaten by scabs and leprosy, who ought to be
trodden underfoot and destroyed, she and her wisdom...Throw dung in her
face...drown her in baptism"
-- Martin Luther
"If by any effort of reason I could conceive how God, Who shows so much
anger and iniquity, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of
faith."
-- Martin Luther
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
LP
>Subject: Why is it that some people don't believe in God?
>From: "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com
>Date: 2/10/01 1:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>
>
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
>
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
>Tom Brutin
>
>Skypher replies :
>I believe in God because I don't believe life was/is an accident or came about
>from some unknowledgeable, meaningless reaction.
Did the God you believe in come about from some unknowledgeable,
meaningless reaction? If a God can come about in that way, then why
can't a universe filled with life come about in that way?
> I also believe in God because
>of the automatic responses to good and evil that occurs in all species.
An "automatic responses to good and evil that occurs in all species"
makes complete sense for creatures who have evolved.
> I also
>believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
>
Does your God have "meaning". Did that "meaning" come from a higher
power than God? If we require a higher power as the source for
"meaning", then why doesn't God?
Whirl_pool
#1439
Matthias Weiss
>
> "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com wrote:
> > I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> > religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
> > But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> > is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> > why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
> > I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> > some information about the subject.
>
> 1. United we stand, divided we fall. People who devoutly follow some organized
> religion are part of a greater whole. Mormons prosper because they stick
> together, help each other, and cooperate with each other. Atheists have
> no cohesive unifying glue. Devoutly religious people have a supportive
> community.
...unless you live in a well-working democracy where the law protects
the individual from the tyranny of the majority. Your desire to dominate
is a telling characteristic of your worldview.
> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than atheists,
> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
Unless it violates your "We-versus-them" principle (1). "Think like I do
or be screwed!" -- Nice.
> 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with helping the less
> fortunate. Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less
> human suffering.
Unless it violates 1.)
<sarcasm>
Muslims in Indonesia tend to be very supportive of Chinese Christians.
Ulster Catholics' concern for their protestant neighbours (and vice
versa) is heart-warming. The most prosperous religious community in the
world is Afghanistan. Lots of compassion there to go around.
</sarcasm>
This is not intended to show that religion necessarily turns people into
animals. But the fact that it CAN serves as counterexample to your
thesis.
> 4. Traditional organized religions foster family values and big families, so
> religious communities grow faster than atheist communities. Seemingly,
> religion bestows an evolutionary advantage. If this wasn't so, man would
> not be as religious as he is.
Families who have slaves tend to have a better standard of living than
families without slaves. Seemingly, slavery bestows an evolutionary
advantage. If this wasn't so, people wouldn't fight a war to uphold
slavery in their society.
Show how fast growing populations offer an evolutionary advantage to the
human species. "Survival of the species" is all that matters in biology.
> 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
This is supported by which study?
> 6 Many humans have an innate fear of death and belief in God helps the
> deal with this fear as well as other fears.
Ah, at least I can buy that.
> 7. Many humans have problems controlling their hypothalamus, the seat
> of human appetites. Religion and the fear of a higher power helps these
> people keep their hypothalamus in line. Religious people have fewer
> problems with gambling, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and many
> other visceral appetites that ruin the lives of many atheists.
And this is supported by which study?
> 8. Religion tends to strengthen family bonds and promotes development
> of the human conscience. Of course, many atheists also promote
> development of the conscience. A much higher percentage of
> atheists are amoral than humans who believe in God.
False. Atheism is amoral in the sense that it promotes no moral
standards. Atheists find those for themselves, and more often than not,
they overlap with standards upheld by religious people.
> 9. Many humans have problems dealing with all the injustice in the
> world. Again religion comes to the rescue and allows them to
?
> 10. Religion provides people with reward and pleasure for doing good deeds.
Doing good deeds should be its own reward. Well, plus the appreciation
of the PEOPLE that were the benefactor of my good deed.
> 11. Religion promotes kindness and generosity to fellow members.
A truer word was never spoken...especially the last three words.
> 12. Christians try to teach morals to non-Christians.
Corollary to 11 and 12: In the application of 12, kindness and
generosity are not required.
By the bye, why do you equate "religion" and "Christianity"?
> 13. Religion helps people deal with fear of unknown, and helps people
> deal with situations they otherwise might not have the ability to
> deal with. When people believe they have a special power on
> their side, this gives them confidence and faith, and any football
> coach can tell the importance of confidence and faith. And this
> is true in many parts of life.
Critical thinking and inquiry, and finally understanding, helps me deal
with the unknown.
> 14. Human beings are in essence, non-physical, conscious beings
> who have no direct knowledge of the physical world they perceive.
Baseless assertion.
> 15. The perceived physical world is filled with paradoxes.
There is no such thing in the "physical world," only an understanding of
nature that still doesn't go deep enough. The stop-gap god is out
anyway, even in theology.
> 16. Science teaches that time had a beginning. And according
> to our best scientific knowledge to date, the universe began
> in a very, very, very low entropy state. Low entropy states
> are very improbable. High entropy states are most probable.
> Every since our universe began, entropy has been increasing,
> and according to science it will continue to increase until
> it reaches a near maximal state.
Lack of understanding of the principles of probability and statistical
mechanics. Hint: Fluctuation, *Expected* Value, Distribution.
> It is almost inconceivable that a universe should start off
> in such a highly improbable state. This situation is so
> difficult to understand that many of the brightest minds who
> have studied this problem theorize a near unlimited amount
> of other universes that can't be detected in order to account
> for this strange situation. The atheists in this newsgroup
> believe these scientists are foolishly mistaken.
Since it is inconceivable to you, it cannot be true. I see.
> 17. According to modern science, there is no reason why the
> constants in the universe are what they are. If these constants
> were any different, life as we know it could not exist. So in
> effect, it appears as if the universe were fine tuned for our
> existence. Again many of the greatest scientific minds of
> our time hypthesize the existence of near unlimited number
> of other universes which can't be detected to explain this
> situation. The atheists in this newsgroup believe these
> scientists are foolishly mistaken.
If the universe was fine tuned for other forms of life, people like you
would argue likewise.
> 18. Our universe has many other aspects to it which make
> it appear unnatural, the abudance of conservation laws.
> The fact that we see the universe as containing countless
> different substances, but when we examine the universe
> closely, it seems that everything in the universe is made
> up of just one thing. All substances seem to be one,
> all forces seem to be one, and at the beginning of the
> universe there seems to have existed just one thing,
> perhaps occupying no space, and containing all the
> universe in some undifferentiated state. A thousand
> years a religious figure defined God in exactly this
> manner. He based this definition on a passage from
> the bible.
Order is a human concept. You impose your sense of aesthetics onto the
universe.
> 19. There is little which prevents atheists from being vulgar,
> crude, hurtful, vindictive, mean-spirited, and just plain
> juvinile so a good number of atheists tend to imitate
> Beavis and Butthead or Cartman on South Park. Many
> atheists, in fact, worship these characters.
And you know something about the majority of atheists how?
> 20. In ancient Greece, there was a group of people called
> Sophists who played word games. They could prove
> or disprove just about anything. Today, their tradition
> is carried on by many atheists.
I'm not disproving anything. I haven't yet heard a concept of religion
that is worth the investigation.
> 22. Christian countries have generally done better than
> non-Christian countries.
Yah, in the 13th century, Europe was the axis of the world, whereas
there was no culture in Persia.
*Free societies* always do better than *despotic societies*. Check
history...
<snip>
Rest is just rephrasing of afore-listed items.
Matthias Weiss.
The Owen
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
I will try and keep this brief, because you will probably get a lot of
replies.
I would class myself as a strong atheist. Morally, I am not a Humanist,
either.
Basically, I am dubious of anything that requires a lot of belief or
justification.
The only religion I have had first hand experience with believers of is
Christianity. Leaving aside the obviously insane and fundamentalists
(neither of which category I could see myself belonging to) you have got
some fairly reasonable people.
But, they have to put themselves through all sorts of theological
contortionism to make their beliefs fit. Genesis is metaphorical, the
old testament no longer applies but Jesus' message is fine and dandy.
Why? Haven't they just created their own God? As for people who try and
mash their religious beliefs into scientific theory...
So far as I can see, they go to the trouble because they need to, for
some reason.
I don't have a huge problem with the idea of dying, so I don't need some
valium afterlife to look forward to. I don't feel the need for morals,
particularly not externally imposed morals so I don't need the Ten
commandments. I have never been a great believer in community and
mindless conformity bores me, so I am not particularly jealous of people
who go to Church or whatever. I don't believe in the concept of
"fairness", so I don't need to tell myself that it is all going to be
squared up afterwards. Also, I don't believe in the concept of
"rightness", so I don't see why anyone else should believe what I do,
which is why I think the idea of having a "message" is lunacy.
Science, Philosophy and Art have provided all the answers I have wanted,
so far.
Sorry, if that wasn't what you were after.
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
--
"The" Owen
a/a #1883
The Owen
What automatic examples to good and evil that occur in all species, out
of interest?
Would this apply to ants, for example?
Martin Crisp
(in message <Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>):
>
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
You _have_ to make a thesis about why it _is_ good for _each_ and
_every_ one of us?
Change schools. Now.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
Hey, this isn't the most hated question, it actually gets the atheist
stance right. :-)
Many reasons why some of us don't believe:
1) Never infected with that meme
2) Infected with that meme, but circumstances cured us
3) Infected with that meme, but immune (i.e. discounted because it
made no sense)
4) Infected with the meme, but reason cured us
2&4 may occur in the same person.
I used to believe, because I was taught to believe from an early age.
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
Have Fun
Martin
--
Kinky:
What I do that you wouldn't
Perverted:
What you do that I wouldn't
ArcticBonfire
>> Devoutly religious people have a supportive community.
>
>...unless you live in a well-working democracy
Where devoutly religious people still have a supportive community.
> where the law protects the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
And where the devoutly religious people still have a supportive community.
> Your desire to dominate is a telling characteristic of your worldview.
This is very funny. Who do I wish to dominate, and in what way?
Are you part of some gay sado-masochistic cult? And prey tell,
what do you believe my world view is?
>> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than atheists,
>> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
>
> Unless it violates your "We-versus-them" principle (1). "Think like I do
> or be screwed!" -- Nice.
Huh? I don't see any connection between your words and what I wrote.
>> 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with helping the less
>> fortunate. Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less
>> human suffering.
>
> Unless it violates 1.)
> <sarcasm>
> Muslims in Indonesia tend to be very supportive of Chinese Christians.
> Ulster Catholics' concern for their protestant neighbours (and vice
> versa) is heart-warming. The most prosperous religious community in the
> world is Afghanistan. Lots of compassion there to go around.
> </sarcasm>
I am not going to read any more of this post, because I don't see how
your responses refute what I wrote. Each of your responses till this point
seem to be non-sequiturs. I apologize, if there is some connection
between your responses and what I wrote, but I don't see it.
Tom, if there is anything else in Mathew's post that you want me to
respond to, please let me know. Otherwise, I am moving on to
the next post.
ArcticBonfire
> I would class myself as a strong atheist. Morally, I am
> not a Humanist, either.
Dear Tom:
As you see, most atheists are amoral or have negative
selfish morals. This is the number reason why it is better
for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
in God. A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle,
where the strong devourt the weak, the old and the young,
where males butt heads proving their worth as mates to
females, and where selfishness and greed is good.
The choice is clear, choose atheism and you choose
every man, woman and child for themselves, you choose
not to care about injustice, you choose to believe in power,
selfishness, dishonesty, double-crosses, greed, and
materialism. Choose religion, and you have a caring
community, people interested in justice, and in right
and wrong. It is an age old struggle between good and
evil. The choice is yours.
The Owen
<snip>
> > 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
>
> This is supported by which study?
>
This is bugging me. The suicide bit. Theists keep coming up with this
without ever supporting it.
Which study showed this?
<snip>
> Rest is just rephrasing of afore-listed items.
>
> Matthias Weiss.
--
"The" Owen
a/a #1883
Mike Smith
= "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com wrote:
= > What are the reason of some people not to believe
= > in a higher being, why do they not believe? Also, why
= > do others believe? I hope anyone of you can give
= > me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
= > information about the subject.
=
= 1. United we stand, divided we fall. People who devoutly
= follow some organized religion are part of a greater whole.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
= 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more
= honest than atheists, and honesty promotes synergy,
= cooperation, and teamwork.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
Where do you get the idea that the "devoutly religious"
are more honest than atheists?
= 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with
= helping the less fortunate.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
Plus, religion has tradionally "helped the less fortunate"
with strings attached - namely, convert to X religion.
= Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and
= less human suffering.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
Plus, there are a disproportionately small number of atheists
in prison.
= 4. Traditional organized religions foster family values and
= big families, so religious communities grow faster than
= atheist communities.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
= Seemingly, religion bestows an evolutionary advantage.
= If this wasn't so, man would not be as religious as he is.
Cancer must be an advantage, too, or so many people
wouldn't have it.
= 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide
= rate than atheists.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
Cite for the suicide/homicide rates?
= 6 Many humans have an innate fear of death and belief
= in God helps the deal with this fear as well as other fears.
FINALLY! You managed to address the question that was
asked. Only took six tries, too.
= 7. Many humans have problems controlling their hypothalamus,
= the seat of human appetites. Religion and the fear of a higher
= power helps these people keep their hypothalamus in line.
= Religious people have fewer problems with gambling, drug
= addiction, alcohol addiction, and many other visceral appetites
= that ruin the lives of many atheists.
Cite?
= 8. Religion tends to strengthen family bonds and promotes
= development of the human conscience.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
Plus, divorce rates are higher for xtians than for atheists.
= Of course, many atheists also promote development of the
= conscience. A much higher percentage of atheists are
= amoral than humans who believe in God.
Cite?
= 9. Many humans have problems dealing with all the injustice
= in the world. Again religion comes to the rescue and allows
= them to
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
= 10. Religion provides people with reward and pleasure for
= doing good deeds.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
= 11. Religion promotes kindness and generosity to fellow
= members.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
= 12. Christians try to teach morals to non-Christians.
Or burn them.
= 13. Religion helps people deal with fear of unknown, and
= helps people deal with situations they otherwise might not
= have the ability to deal with.
The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
not why do they join an organized religion.
--snip--
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
(Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God
- Psa. 14a
Whoever saith 'thou fool' to his brother shall be
liable to burn in hellfire. - Matt 5:22.
The Owen
>
> The Owen spm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I would class myself as a strong atheist. Morally, I am
> > not a Humanist, either.
>
> Dear Tom:
Too good for Mensa, but precious little in the way of manners, it would
seem.
> As you see, most atheists are amoral
"Most". You know this how?
> or have negative
> selfish morals.
Negative by what standards?
> This is the number reason why it is better
> for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
> in God.
Didn't you once claim to be an "atheist" or am I thinking of someone
else?
> A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle,
> where the strong devourt the weak, the old and the young,
> where males butt heads proving their worth as mates to
> females, and where selfishness and greed is good.
> The choice is clear, choose atheism and you choose
> every man, woman and child for themselves, you choose
> not to care about injustice, you choose to believe in power,
> selfishness, dishonesty, double-crosses, greed, and
> materialism.
Open your eyes. That /is/ the world, which is dominated by theists.
> Choose religion, and you have a caring
> community, people interested in justice, and in right
> and wrong.
Like all those "good christians" who were complicit in the nazi
holocaust, you mean?
Or were you thinking of the crusades?
Or Northern Ireland?
Or Afghanistan?
Or Saudi Arabia?
etc.
etc.
etc.
> It is an age old struggle between good and
> evil. The choice is yours.
Assuming you believe in such things, I'd say religion came out ahead in
the "evil" stakes.
Mike Smith
= The Owen spm...@my-deja.com wrote:
= > I would class myself as a strong atheist. Morally, I am
= > not a Humanist, either.
=
= Dear Tom:
Dear Arctic:
If you only want to address one person, use email.
= As you see, most atheists are amoral or have negative
= selfish morals. This is the number reason why it is better
= for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
= in God. A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle,
= where the strong devourt the weak, the old and the young,
= where males butt heads proving their worth as mates to
= females, and where selfishness and greed is good.
= The choice is clear, choose atheism and you choose
= every man, woman and child for themselves, you choose
= not to care about injustice, you choose to believe in power,
= selfishness, dishonesty, double-crosses, greed, and
= materialism. Choose religion, and you have a caring
= community, people interested in justice, and in right
= and wrong. It is an age old struggle between good and
= evil. The choice is yours.
So... are you still calling yourself an atheist, or does the
mask come off yet?
Matthias Weiss
> > Your desire to dominate is a telling characteristic of your worldview.
>
> This is very funny. Who do I wish to dominate, and in what way?
> Are you part of some gay sado-masochistic cult? And prey tell,
> what do you believe my world view is?
You made it clear that support is not supposed to extend beyond the
limits of your religious community. Having the same faith as you is a
condition for being worthy of your compassion. This is dominating
behaviour. I don't know why you strayed across to the sexual conotation
of the word. It seems argumentative of you to do so.
I don't know what your worldview is -- beyond what you let on about it.
But sectarianism is something that became apparent from your post.
> >> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than atheists,
> >> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
> >
> > Unless it violates your "We-versus-them" principle (1). "Think like I do
> > or be screwed!" -- Nice.
>
> Huh? I don't see any connection between your words and what I wrote.
Well, that's because it's contained in two different issues you rose.
> >> 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with helping the less
> >> fortunate. Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less
> >> human suffering.
> >
> > Unless it violates 1.)
> > <sarcasm>
> > Muslims in Indonesia tend to be very supportive of Chinese Christians.
> > Ulster Catholics' concern for their protestant neighbours (and vice
> > versa) is heart-warming. The most prosperous religious community in the
> > world is Afghanistan. Lots of compassion there to go around.
> > </sarcasm>
>
> I am not going to read any more of this post, because I don't see how
> your responses refute what I wrote. Each of your responses till this point
> seem to be non-sequiturs.
The fact that Afghanistan is a religious society, and the living
conditions therein, do not contradict your assertion that human
suffering is reduced in a religious community? Terrorism in a society
that consists almost exclusively of two religious groups doesn't
contradict your assertion that there is less crime in religious
communities? Okay... <shrug> Maybe witholding medical treatment and
education from women doesn't cause suffering, and maybe shooting police
men because they are not Catholic/perceived as not Catholic/from the
British main land isn't a crime.
Matthias Weiss.
Dr. Faustus
"ArcticBonfire" <arctic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010210203857...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com wrote:
> > I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> > religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
us.
> > But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an
anwser to
> > is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
> > why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
> > I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> > some information about the subject.
>
questioning. People who devoutly follow some organized religion are part of
a greater whole which they think justifies their acting like assholes.
Mormons prosper because they stick together, breed like rabbits thereby
driving out all others, help each other to stomp the competition, and
cooperate with each other to keep non Mormons out of public office in Utah.
Atheists have no cohesive unifying glue other than the fact that they are
right. Devoutly religious people have a supportive community, i.e., the
fatherland, the party, the Inquisition, etc.
>
> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honestly disturbed
than atheists,
> and honestly disturbed people promote sin, cooperation, and teamwork
(just like that at Belsen, Dachau, Triblinka, Auschwitz, etc.).
>
> 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with exploiting the less
> fortunate. Just ask the Indians of North and South America.
Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less human suffering.
'just like us.'
>
> 4. Traditional organized religions foster family values like prejudice,
racism and genocide, and big families, 'cause religious daddies love to be
fruitful and multiply with the neighbors daughter, so religious communities
grow faster than atheist communities. Seemingly, religion bestows an
If this wasn't so, man would
women aren't important in religious thought except as sex toys and baby
machines.
>
> 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
aren't 'just like us?'
>
> 6 Many humans have an innate fear of death and belief in God as well as
sucking your thumb helps us
> deal with this fear as well as other fears. Such as the fear of
knowing that we are wrong about this god thing.
>
> 7. Many humans have problems controlling their hypothalamus, the seat
> of human appetites. Religion and the fear of a higher power helps
these
> people keep their hypothalamus in line. Religious people have fewer
> problems with gambling, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and many
see, when anyone has any of these human frailties, we simply no longer
consider them religious. Out of sight, out of the statistics.
>
> 8. Religion tends to strengthen family bonds and promotes development
lie, and think of ourselves as special. Of course, many atheists also
promote development of the conscience. A much higher percentage of atheists
>
> 9. Many humans have problems dealing with all the injustice in the
to put on blinders to the world's problems
>
> 10. Religion provides people with reward and pleasure for doing good
without the fear of afterlife retribution.
>
> 11. Religion promotes kindness and generosity to fellow members, and death
and oppression to non-members.
>
> 12. Christians try to teach morals to non-Christians. If they won't learn
what we try to beat into them, we kill them and take their land.
****<snip the rest 'cause my brain is really hurtin' reading this ego
stroking shit> ****
Elf Sternberg
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> writes:
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
>us.
If it's a state-run school, does your thesis include the
possibility that religion is not necessarily "good" for "us," whoever
that "us" happens to be?
>What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe?
Because no description of "god" that I've ever heard corresponds
to my own knowledge of morality, natural observation, historical
correspondence, and universal application. No religion corresponds. I
don't believe because I've never heard a "god story" that makes sense.
And, at least in the country where I've lived, the Christian
story is the most popular, and to me it is also one of the most
immoral. The notion that "god" creates the universe, has complete
control over every detail of it, and yet creates a moral code where only
a tiny, self-satisfied minority manage to avoid the most awful of fates,
does not come across as moral; it comes across as tribal and vicious.
>Also, why do others believe?
Because they want to be part of that self-satisfied, tribal
minority that "gets theirs."
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, rational romantic mystical cynical idealist
http://www.halcyon.com/elf/
Fast food restaurants are like gay bathhouses in San Francisco,
places where people go to engage in high-risk behaviors.
- Greg Critser
Kevin Gassaway
wrote:
>ArcticBonfire wrote:
>> > Your desire to dominate is a telling characteristic of your worldview.
>>
>> This is very funny. Who do I wish to dominate, and in what way?
>> Are you part of some gay sado-masochistic cult? And prey tell,
>> what do you believe my world view is?
>
>You made it clear that support is not supposed to extend beyond the
>limits of your religious community. Having the same faith as you is a
>condition for being worthy of your compassion. This is dominating
>behaviour. I don't know why you strayed across to the sexual conotation
>of the word. It seems argumentative of you to do so.
LOL! Perhaps Arcty is Masked Man in a...well...mask. :-)
--
Kevin Gassaway, a.a. #1774 (Remove NO SPAM to e-mail me.)
"If you have seen me cross myself, it was to Science, Art and Nature."
- Bela Bartok
johac
Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
> us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
> to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
I see no evidence for god or the supernatural and therefore I have no
reason to believe in them.
>
> Tom Brutin
>
>
>
>
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
It was the schoolboy who said: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910).
Noah Simoneaux
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
>
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
Check out Dr. Albert Ellis's books, such as A New Guide to Rational Living. Dr.
Ellis doesn't think religion is a healthy thing.
Noah Simoneaux
Education is the process of moving from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty.- Utvich's Observation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Noah Simoneaux
(snip rationalizations)
>Please note that broad generalizations cannot be
>applied to specific individuals. There are exceptions
>to every rule. Whenever I have made an unqualified
>statement, the words "on average" should be inserted.
>Just because women have larger breasts then men,
>does not mean that some men don't have larger breasts
>than some women. The atheists in this newsgroup are
>fond of nit picking and pointing to exceptions. They
>dispute that any generalization can ever be made about
>any class, and in so doing dispute set theory, modern
>medicine, actuarial tables and any and all criminal
>profiles. They are for the most part a bunch of blow
>hards, so take what they write in stride, and with a
>grain of salt. If you are looking to verify any of my
>claims, I suggest you use an Internet search engine
>like google.com. It is not perfect, but it will serve your
>purposes.
Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
Finally some honesty for a change?
Christopher A. Lee
<tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
Not hated, just one of the most stupid questions.
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
People don't believe in God for the same reason they don't believe in
Zeus, Mithras, Odin, Osiris, or Santa Claus: they're ALL just
something some other people believe that have no relevance outside
the belief system.
People believe in them because the belief was implanted in the
formative years so it becomes unquestioned and axiomatic. Those who
do, fail to realise that in the absence of a reason to believe the
default is not believing. They also don't realise how irrelevant it
is to everybody else, either.
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
>
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
>Tom Brutin
>
>
>
Heathen Bastard
Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me
No.
> if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
> us.
You *have* too? Obviously, you're not in public school.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
> to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
(I'm probably going to regret answering this) I won't try to speak for
everyone else, but for *me*, there are several interrelated reasons:
1) My brain doesn't work that way: I jst cannot do the "faith" thing
The wiring isn't there.
2) The very idea of deity is ludicrous, when held up against the
knowledge we have about how the universe actually works.
3) There has never been any objective evidence that points to the
existance of any deity
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
--
-------/ \-------
"For me, the word 'God' suggests everything that is slippery, shady,
squalid,foul and grotesque." ---Andre Breton
-------\ /-------
=>Heathen Bastard: BAAWA Knight, cussard extraodinaire, certified loony<=
winge...@my-deja.com
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey,
>
the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis
about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
us.
Well, I dissagree with this, myself. I've known enough people that are
actually worse off emotionally by their addict-like need for their
particular worship. Rather than healing themselves, they latch onto a
worship figure and call themselves better, but, still, they attack
anybody and anything that threatens their worldview.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an
anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
> why do they not believe?
For a lot of us here in this newsgroup, the reason we do not believe is
simply a lack of reason to. And, I don't mean a reason like "you'll go
to hell if you don't" or "because he loves you", those aren't reasons
unless you already believe. There's just no real reason to consider any
deities to be that likely to exist.
Also, why do others believe?
Various reasons. Some include that they've been told that (insert deity
here) exists from an early age. I see this happening with my little
brother right now as my stepmother tells him to repeat a prayer before
dinner. It's a cute little rhyme, but it's still brainwashing in my
opinion.
Also, some use religion as a substitute for various addictions. By
transfering their addiction onto worship, they can convince themselves
that they're cured.
>
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
>
>
--
"Long ago, learned I, that, if people to think me wise, I want, forced
to think before understanding my words, must they be. Why I talk like
this, that is."
Secret Confessions of Yoda.
Wingedbeast, C. Adam Scott, Atheist #1438
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/wingedbeast/index.html
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
alien...@my-deja.com
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of
the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis
about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one
of us.
anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
>
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
>
>
Tom In my opinion religion is both good and bad. For example
christianity preaches a great moral system, but they throw it all aside
in the name of their god. Take the first comandmant for example. Thou
shalt not kill. But How many people died in the cursades, in the witch
hunts... etc all inthe name of their 'good' 'one true god' and the
belief that all other religions are false.
As for why people belive or do not belive. I think it depends but in
most cases those who belive do so simply because it is what they have
been tought or they have been preayed on because they are weak and find
confote in blindly beliving in something they bearly know about. I
belivew this is why most churches preach and support faith and chose
to enchourage people to follow. And because of this I think those who
chose not to belive in religion or only belive in the posibility are
considered amonst their selves to be superior and above the the whole
debat on religion. That is why is a county where there should be
seperation of church and state we place on all our money 'In god we
trust' Why not gods? Who said I trust god? Is there even a god? More
and more we agnostics and athiems are learning are are not superior and
are not above religion. I once chose not to discuss religion and
claimed to be a athiest only to avoid accepting everyone elses image of
god beliving I was above the need for religion. Since then I have found
that by not accepting god, I was lying to my self and other. I now am
on a quest to read and learn as much as possible about religion,
including the history of the people who have created each religion.
More and more I learn the more I come to the conclusion that we are not
ment to know and are unable to know the truth. If god is any thing it
is the posibility of infinate posibilities and not the finite
incarnation we have created.
ArcticBonfire
> The question was why do people believe in a higher being;
> not why do they join an organized religion.
Belief in a higher being for the most part goes together
with being part of an organized religion. I am willing to
bet that Tom found my answer on point.
You seem to have repeated this your above
response like a mantra over and over again.
I hope you are convincing yourself of its truth.
ArcticBonfire
>> most-hated questions here.
>
> Not hated, just one of the most stupid questions.
Dear Tom, your question was not a stupid question. But many
of the atheists here answering it are stupid atheists.
The Owen
Whereas Actic Bonfire is a pitifully stupid theist.
"Higher standards than Mensa..."
<lol>
alien...@my-deja.com
sky...@aol.com (Skypher) wrote:
> Subject: Why is it that some people don't believe in God?
> From: "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com
> Date: 2/10/01 1:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> Message-id: <Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>
>
> Hey,
>
the
> most-hated questions here.
>
about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one
of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an
anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
some
> information about the subject.
>
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
>
> I believe in God because I don't believe life was/is an accident or
came about
> from some unknowledgeable, meaningless reaction.
Maybe It was those darn aliens that started life here!!!
oh wait, you'll just say who created them... well who created god?
Now stop and apply your answer to the last question to life here on
earth isn't that far enough till we have proof some some thing... wait
your going to quote that darn bible and proof... Guess You win the
bible has got to be right!
I also believe in God because
> of the automatic responses to good and evil that occurs in all
species.
COuld this just be conditioned responses over time... eveloution...
good is positive... negitive would be bad.
I also
> believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
>
>
Tom Brutin
Everyone who gave their opinion : Thank You very much, I found a lot of
useful material in here.
But still, If anyone else wants to add something: be my guest; The more the
beter
Tom
Yang
<tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
Why are some people Christians but other Muslims?
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
You're Welcome.
patrick...@my-deja.com
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of
the
> most-hated questions here.
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis
about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one
of us.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an
anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
some
> information about the subject.
>
>
> Tom Brutin
I can't speak for everyone, but here's why I don't believe in god. I
simply can see no reason to do so. There's no objective evidence that
such a being exists. There's nothing that might even lead me to suspect
such a thing.
Further, despite ten years of Christianity, I never experienced any of
the subjective things that many Christians claim showed them the
existence of god. I did, however, feel an overwhelming pressure from
other Christians to either pretend or fool myself that I had, just to
conform and not rock the boat. I also saw that other religions, which
were opposed to or incompatible with Christianity, claimed similar
subjective experiences.
I realised that I, like everybody else, was creating god in my own
image - taking everything I thought was right and important, elevating
that to something universal and calling it "god". I also realised that
every religion, no matter how noble the principles it was based on are,
ends up becoming the same thing - a way of dividing people into "them"
and "us", and that true morality comes from taking responsibility for
your actions and decisions and not from blind obedience to often
arbitrary rules backed up with eternal reward/punishment incentives.
So I concluded that (a) god has no objective existence and (b) religion
is worthless.
Hope that's helpful.
Patrick
patrick...@my-deja.com
patrick...@my-deja.com
arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
(snip)
> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than
atheists,
> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
Tom, s word of warning about ArcticBonfire. He claims to be an atheist,
yet he constantly argues against atheism and in favour of Christianity,
and has even let his mask slip so far as to threaten people with hell.
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about his honesty.
Skypher
From: patrick...@my-deja.com
Date: 2/11/01 4:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <966071$s8g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
In article <20010210203857...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
(snip)
> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than
atheists,
> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
Patrick Brown wrote :
Tom, s word of warning about ArcticBonfire. He claims to be an atheist,
yet he constantly argues against atheism and in favour of Christianity,
and has even let his mask slip so far as to threaten people with hell.
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about his honesty.
Skypher replies :
Perhaps he is an atheist that doesn't like atheism?
Stonefaced
ArcticBonfire <arctic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010210203857...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> "Tom Brutin" tran...@coolemail.com wrote:
> > religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
us.
> > But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an
anwser to
> > is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher
being,
> > why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
> > I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide
> > some information about the subject.
>
organized
> religion are part of a greater whole. Mormons prosper because they
stick
> together, help each other, and cooperate with each other. Atheists
have
> no cohesive unifying glue. Devoutly religious people have a supportive
> community.
Every heard of a labor union. Or read the atheistic American
or Australian constutions that have no need of God like interferance
and actually make express statements, like "No God beyond this line".
>
> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than atheists,
> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
This is own self-servingly honest of you.
>
> 3. Religion tends to make people more concerned with helping the less
> fortunate. Religious communities, therefore, have less crime and less
> human suffering.
Religion that makes people caring, where they were not, is good.
Religion that make out people as not caring because they are not
religious is bad. Religion that ignores that fact that once uncaring
people that are now religious are still uncaring but have God to poke
and prod the down trodden are the worst form of scum yet imaginable.
For isn't it the case that to claim a higher standard one must
have cause to show why. It staggers me to think that religious
people can impose themselves merely on the pretext that
others are in need, where's the humanity the Pope preaches?
Surely to help someone you must first respect them enough
to know how utterly brave it will be to accept help, that
people who have lost all self-esteem should have to accept
their tag as 'less fortuate', in needing of help, with humility.
Please, grow some morals. You are a better person because
you fay concern, you would be a better person if you actually
not wasting your time on the internet buildingup your self-esteem
and earnt it like those religious and non-religious people who
walk the talk. Parasite.
>
> 4. Traditional organized religions foster family values and big families,
so
> religious communities grow faster than atheist communities.
Seemingly,
> religion bestows an evolutionary advantage. If this wasn't so, man
would
> not be as religious as he is.
There is no such thing as a society that lacks someone's elses
beliefs, well no such society if you admit all of them are. There
are however many long live communties of freethinkers,
communties that lack god deities, Buddhists, etc.
>
> 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
Right that's before or after the football session is over.
<bailed>
>
> 6 Many humans have an innate fear of death and belief in God helps the
> deal with this fear as well as other fears.
>
> 7. Many humans have problems controlling their hypothalamus, the seat
> of human appetites. Religion and the fear of a higher power helps
these
> people keep their hypothalamus in line. Religious people have fewer
> problems with gambling, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and many
> other visceral appetites that ruin the lives of many atheists.
>
> 8. Religion tends to strengthen family bonds and promotes development
> of the human conscience. Of course, many atheists also promote
> development of the conscience. A much higher percentage of
> atheists are amoral than humans who believe in God.
>
> 9. Many humans have problems dealing with all the injustice in the
> world. Again religion comes to the rescue and allows them to
>
> 10. Religion provides people with reward and pleasure for doing good
deeds.
>
> 11. Religion promotes kindness and generosity to fellow members.
>
> 12. Christians try to teach morals to non-Christians.
>
> 13. Religion helps people deal with fear of unknown, and helps people
> deal with situations they otherwise might not have the ability to
> deal with. When people believe they have a special power on
> their side, this gives them confidence and faith, and any football
> coach can tell the importance of confidence and faith. And this
> is true in many parts of life.
>
> 14. Human beings are in essence, non-physical, conscious beings
> who have no direct knowledge of the physical world they perceive.
>
> 15. The perceived physical world is filled with paradoxes.
>
> 16. Science teaches that time had a beginning. And according
> to our best scientific knowledge to date, the universe began
> in a very, very, very low entropy state. Low entropy states
> are very improbable. High entropy states are most probable.
> Every since our universe began, entropy has been increasing,
> and according to science it will continue to increase until
> it reaches a near maximal state.
>
> It is almost inconceivable that a universe should start off
> in such a highly improbable state. This situation is so
> difficult to understand that many of the brightest minds who
> have studied this problem theorize a near unlimited amount
> of other universes that can't be detected in order to account
> for this strange situation. The atheists in this newsgroup
> believe these scientists are foolishly mistaken.
>
> 17. According to modern science, there is no reason why the
> constants in the universe are what they are. If these constants
> were any different, life as we know it could not exist. So in
> effect, it appears as if the universe were fine tuned for our
> existence. Again many of the greatest scientific minds of
> our time hypthesize the existence of near unlimited number
> of other universes which can't be detected to explain this
> situation. The atheists in this newsgroup believe these
> scientists are foolishly mistaken.
>
> 18. Our universe has many other aspects to it which make
> it appear unnatural, the abudance of conservation laws.
> The fact that we see the universe as containing countless
> different substances, but when we examine the universe
> closely, it seems that everything in the universe is made
> up of just one thing. All substances seem to be one,
> all forces seem to be one, and at the beginning of the
> universe there seems to have existed just one thing,
> perhaps occupying no space, and containing all the
> universe in some undifferentiated state. A thousand
> years a religious figure defined God in exactly this
> manner. He based this definition on a passage from
> the bible.
>
> 19. There is little which prevents atheists from being vulgar,
> crude, hurtful, vindictive, mean-spirited, and just plain
> juvinile so a good number of atheists tend to imitate
> Beavis and Butthead or Cartman on South Park. Many
> atheists, in fact, worship these characters.
>
> 20. In ancient Greece, there was a group of people called
> Sophists who played word games. They could prove
> or disprove just about anything. Today, their tradition
> is carried on by many atheists.
>
> 21. There are countless more reasons why people believe
> God. Some people have witnessed things that appear
> to be miracles. Some people long for meaning and
> purpose. Some people can't bear to believe that loved
> ones just disappear into nothingness when they die.
>
> 22. Christian countries have generally done better than
> non-Christian countries.
>
> 23. Religion teaches non-material values. As the world
> darkens, these values will become ever more
> critical.
>
> 24. Humans enjoy holidays and family get togethers.
> And religions offer more holidays.
>
> 25. Religion gives people a feeling of spiritual fulfiment,
> makes people feel more secure, and fills personal
> voids.
>
> 26. Religious affiliations offer more opportunities to
> network with decent people.
>
> 27. Those in need can expect to receive more help
> from those who are religious than from atheists.
>
> 28. Religious people tend to live happier more fulfilling
> lives, and their children tend to do better.
>
> I guess this is a rather short list. I am stopping now
> because my arms are getting tired of typing. The other
> atheists in this group, I am sure will give you equally
> compelling reasons why people should be atheists.
Elroy Willis
> Matthias Weiss wrote:
>>> 5. Religious people have a lower suicide and homocide rate than atheists.
>> This is supported by which study?
> This is bugging me. The suicide bit. Theists keep coming up with this
> without ever supporting it.
> Which study showed this?
And did it detail successful suicides vs. unsuccessful ones?
--
Sir Elroy - BAAWA Knight
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
One man's absurdity is another man's religion.
Elroy Willis
> arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
>> than some women. The atheists in this newsgroup are
>> fond of nit picking and pointing to exceptions. They
>> dispute that any generalization can ever be made about
>> any class, and in so doing dispute set theory, modern
>> medicine, actuarial tables and any and all criminal
>> profiles. They are for the most part a bunch of blow
>> hards, so take what they write in stride, and with a
>> grain of salt. If you are looking to verify any of my
>> claims, I suggest you use an Internet search engine
>> like google.com. It is not perfect, but it will serve your
>> purposes.
> Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
> Finally some honesty for a change?
I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
an atheist?
Elroy Willis
> The Owen spm...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> I would class myself as a strong atheist. Morally, I am
>> not a Humanist, either.
> Dear Tom:
> As you see, most atheists are amoral or have negative
> selfish morals. This is the number reason why it is better
> for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
> in God. A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle,
> where the strong devourt the weak, the old and the young,
> where males butt heads proving their worth as mates to
> females, and where selfishness and greed is good.
> The choice is clear, choose atheism and you choose
> every man, woman and child for themselves, you choose
> not to care about injustice, you choose to believe in power,
> selfishness, dishonesty, double-crosses, greed, and
> materialism. Choose religion, and you have a caring
> community, people interested in justice, and in right
> and wrong. It is an age old struggle between good and
> evil. The choice is yours.
Didn't you claim to be an atheist in another post?
Elroy Willis
> arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
>= As you see, most atheists are amoral or have negative
>= selfish morals. This is the number reason why it is better
>= for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
>= in God. A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle,
>= where the strong devourt the weak, the old and the young,
>= where males butt heads proving their worth as mates to
>= females, and where selfishness and greed is good.
>= The choice is clear, choose atheism and you choose
>= every man, woman and child for themselves, you choose
>= not to care about injustice, you choose to believe in power,
>= selfishness, dishonesty, double-crosses, greed, and
>= materialism. Choose religion, and you have a caring
>= community, people interested in justice, and in right
>= and wrong. It is an age old struggle between good and
>= evil. The choice is yours.
> So... are you still calling yourself an atheist, or does the
> mask come off yet?
A sock puppet of Masked Masturbator's?
Elroy Willis
> Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>> What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>> why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
> (I'm probably going to regret answering this) I won't try to speak for
> everyone else, but for *me*, there are several interrelated reasons:
> 1) My brain doesn't work that way: I jst cannot do the "faith" thing
> The wiring isn't there.
Ditto. My god spot must be filled with a curiosity and critical
thinking spot.
> 2) The very idea of deity is ludicrous, when held up against the
> knowledge we have about how the universe actually works.
Ditto.
> 3) There has never been any objective evidence that points to the
> existance of any deity
Ditto. Hmm... Actually, when you think about it, there is objective
evidence for the planet gods, volcano gods, etc. At least they were
based on something tangible. Today's gods are invisible,
undetectable, and provide no physical evidence of existence.
Elroy Willis
> ArcticBonfire wrote:
> "Higher standards than Mensa..."
> <lol>
Who's he think he's fooling?
ArcticBonfire
> Tom, s word of warning about ArcticBonfire. He claims to be an atheist,
> yet he constantly argues against atheism and in favour of Christianity,
Patrtick Brown that I argue in favor of Christianity. Ask him to supply
you with a single post wherein I argue in favor of the truth Christianity.
Patrick Brown is a liar.
> has even let his mask slip so far as to threaten people with hell.
This is either another lie, or came from some misunderstanding of
one of my posts. Extremeists have a tendancy to take humor
seriously, to see viewpoints in B&W terms, to not tolerate dissent,
and to take no capitves. In any evernt, most of the Atheists in this
newsgroup are the atheist equivalent of Born Again Christians or
Jehova's Witnesses.
They are just not atheists, they are Atheists. They have a knee-jerk
reaction to every comment that favors religion or the existance
of God. They represent the least objective, most closed-minded
of all atheists. They are pure idealogues with an exteme views,
and they blindly follow the most atheist dogma, and spout the
most extreme atheist propoganda. These atheists are true believers.
They believe as blindly in atheism as anyone believes in God.
The Atheists in this group remind me of the Mullahs and Ayotollahs
of Iran rapping the hands of those who diverge one iota from their
fixed belief system or the Red Guard of China during the cultrual
Revolution, or the Brown Shirts of the Nazi Party. This newsgroup
is the vangaurd of atheists.
I support virtually all the polictical views of Ralph Nader, but
when I visit the Green Party Newsgroup, I am considered an
ultra-right wing Republican for suggesting it would have
served Nadar's interests best, if he had supported Gore in
swing states, and it also would have boosted his credability
as a realist. Whatever newsgroup I join I am virtually always
called a troll because I am outspoken and don't defer to the pure
party line. It is a fact of life, that newsgroups attract the most
extreme members of their community, and such members are
always trying to blindly and rabidly enforce the true party line.
Liz
<AD51F0F9D214621D.CF324EE0...@lp.airnews.net> in
alt.atheism wrote:
>noa...@there.com (Noah Simoneaux) wrote in alt.atheism
>
[-----]
>> Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
>
>> Finally some honesty for a change?
>
>I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>an atheist?
No, more like an asshole playing at being human.
Liz #658 BAAWA
"Making shit up" is as much a part of being human as
using language and tool use. -- Mark Richardson
Liz
>
>
>Hey,
Hello.
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
Does your thesis assume that one religion, as opposed to all the rest,
is "good"? Is Islam as "good" as Buddhism? Is a Hindu healthier
than a Jew?
Do atheists have lower divorce rates than Christians? (the answer to
that one is yes)
Societies tend to be insular and see themselves as the standard of
"good and healthy". If a dominant religion is part of the culture,
that society tends to imbue that religion with those attributes,
whether the religion deserves it or not. It is the norm. It is the
"right" way to be.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe?
I have seen no objective evidence for the existence of any gods.
> Also, why do others believe?
You'll need to ask various believers that question. For the life of
me, I can't imagine why someone would want to worship something that
can not be shown to exist.
IMO, I think they believe because it is normal in their society to do
so, and they want to belong. They have been indoctrinated to believe.
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
>
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
You're welcome. Good luck on your assignment.
Überwench #658
Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
Noah Simoneaux
(snip)
>This is very funny. Who do I wish to dominate, and in what way?
>Are you part of some gay sado-masochistic cult? And prey tell,
>what do you believe my world view is?
Looks like our resident Expert on Everything(including everybody else's grammar)
can't tell the difference between PRAY and PREY. Then again, maybe that was a
Freudian Slip.
(snip)
>I am not going to read any more of this post, because I don't see how
>your responses refute what I wrote.
Translation: MY obtuseness limits my comprehension so much that it's pointless
for me to try to figure out what the hell is being said. ;)
(snip)
Mike Smith
=I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist
=playing an atheist?
1) He lumps atheists all together, as in "atheist propoganda."
2) He capitalizes "God."
3) He says "God" singular.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
(Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor)
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God
- Psa. 14a
Whoever saith 'thou fool' to his brother shall be
liable to burn in hellfire. - Matt 5:22.
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> alt.atheism wrote:
>> noa...@there.com (Noah Simoneaux) wrote in alt.atheism
>>> Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
>>> Finally some honesty for a change?
>> I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>> an atheist?
> No, more like an asshole playing at being human.
Dark Fader?
Noah Simoneaux
As opposed to stupid fake-atheists. :/
Noah Simoneaux
(snip)
>Skypher replies :
>Perhaps he is an atheist that doesn't like atheism?
And perhaps theists will do the mental gymnastics necessary to apologize for
anything. :/
Noah Simoneaux
> It is a fact of life.................
Yada yada yada.
Thus speaketh ArcticBonehead. Thus must it be. :/
Liz
<8F28696DAA033D40.F769775E...@lp.airnews.net> in
alt.atheism wrote:
>ech...@donotspam.com (Liz) wrote in alt.atheism
>
>> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> alt.atheism wrote:
>>> noa...@there.com (Noah Simoneaux) wrote in alt.atheism
>
>>>> Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
>
>>>> Finally some honesty for a change?
>
>>> I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>>> an atheist?
>
>> No, more like an asshole playing at being human.
>
>Dark Fader?
I don't think so. Dark, at least, had some sense of humor. AB is
more of a Dr. Sinister type, which has been suggested by others. I
really don't know. I just know that its posts smell like trolldung
and flamebait.
Liz #658 BAAWA
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not
enough to make us love one another, - Johnathan Swift
Noah Simoneaux
(snip)
>I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>an atheist?
>
So far he seems to shit through feathers, waddle, quack, and show most of the
features of a duck, all the while crowing about what a great chicken he is.
Seems a bit honesty-challenged.
Noah Simoneaux
(snip)
>Didn't you claim to be an atheist in another post?
He's still trying to hide behind an atheist mask, maybe to salvage any
credibility he might be able to scrape up. ;)
Chris Nelson
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask
is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
Seems like an acceptable disclaimer. You may proceed! :)
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an
thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and
every one of us.
Are you supposed to support the idea that religion is
necessarily a good thing? If so, that's a poor assignment
the teacher gave you. There is no corellation between
religiosity and personal benefit. For me, being religious
would negatively affect me, and being non-religious is the
healthiest and most beneficial option.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i
need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in
a higher being,
> why do they not believe?
For me: simply because there is no reason to believe in a
god.
> Also, why do others believe?
They were taught by their parents to believe.
--
Chris Nelson
Over 400 failed doomsday prophecies!
http://www.chrisnelson.net
arctic...@my-deja.com
> Liz #658 BAAWA
>
> "Making shit up" is as much a part of being human as
> using language and tool use. -- Mark Richardson
Apparently, you believe in living up to your motto.
Noah Simoneaux
(snip)
>> 1) My brain doesn't work that way: I jst cannot do the "faith" thing
>> The wiring isn't there.
>
>Ditto. My god spot must be filled with a curiosity and critical
>thinking spot.
Kind of weakens the claim that religion is a human need, eh?
(snip)
Doug Berry
"Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com>, wrote thusly:
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
Because I see no reason to follow myths. Religions sprang up to
explain the unexplainable. Life, death the seasons. Now,
through science, we know better.
Look at history. It used to be that the gods were much closer to
man, intervening at every turn. But as science advanced, the
role of gods drew back farther and farther.
Last night, we had a thunder storm in San Francisco. Was all
that light a noise caused by:
a: Electrical discharges between charged clouds and the ground,
or
b: Thor's war cart being pulled through the sky.
We *know* that it is a. We can catch lightning, call it, predict
it. Science has tamed Thor's magic.
If you look at what people ascribe to deities these days, you'll
see that it is only those things we don't understand.. life after
death, the origin of life, etc,. They no longer claim that
spring comes because Hades has let Demeter free!
Look around. The universe is a wonderful place, and there is no
"man behind the curtains" pulling levers to make it all happen.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
raven1
> Whatever newsgroup I join I am virtually always
>called a troll
Imagine our surprise.
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:09:29 -0600, Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>>I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>>an atheist?
>>
>
>So far he seems to shit through feathers, waddle, quack, and show most of the
>features of a duck, all the while crowing about what a great chicken he is.
So why doesn't he cluck off?
>Seems a bit honesty-challenged.
A bit?
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> in alt.atheism wrote:
>> ech...@donotspam.com (Liz) wrote in alt.atheism
>>> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> alt.atheism wrote:
>>>> noa...@there.com (Noah Simoneaux) wrote in alt.atheism
>>>>> Is ArcticBonehead finally admitting he's not an atheist?
>>>>> Finally some honesty for a change?
>>>> I haven't read many of his posts. You think he's a theist playing
>>>> an atheist?
>>> No, more like an asshole playing at being human.
>> Dark Fader?
> I don't think so. Dark, at least, had some sense of humor. AB is
> more of a Dr. Sinister type, which has been suggested by others. I
> really don't know. I just know that its posts smell like trolldung
> and flamebait.
Indeed.
Elroy Willis
> arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
>> Whatever newsgroup I join I am virtually always
>> called a troll
> Imagine our surprise.
Yeah. Go figure.
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> wrote:
>> Noah Simoneaux wrote in alt.atheism
>>> 1) My brain doesn't work that way: I jst cannot do the "faith" thing
>>> The wiring isn't there.
>> Ditto. My god spot must be filled with a curiosity and critical
>> thinking spot.
> Kind of weakens the claim that religion is a human need, eh?
I don't know how much of it is genetic or how much it's based
on upbringing, maybe a combination of the two. But the god spot
seems to be able to be molded, shrunken, enlarged, or activated
by one thing or another. Maybe critical thinking and ties to reality
are located in the same part of the brain as the god spot. You have
to shut off ties to reality to make silent or dead that part of the
brain that deals with physical reality. Prayers, chants, meditation,
etc, all can accomplish this, or even hallucinogenic drugs or
electrical stimulation of the brain.
When people are in those altered states, you can't really trust their
subjective experiences. They may all experience similar type visions
or feelings, but my opinion is that they're all just based on activity
in the brain, nothing more.
Frederik Rosenkjær
rest and religion is only good>
Ever heard of the Middle East?
Mike Painter
It reminds me of the way I used to get out of trouble in high school.
Keep talking and change the subject.
I've seen no post where ArticBonfire states he is an atheist and many where
he seems to speak as a fundamentalist christian.
Even his examples of out behavior don't compare us to christians but to
others.
So lets hear your beliefs AB.
Atheist, agnostic, theist?
Tell us your views of Welhausen.
"ArcticBonfire" <arctic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010211094102...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Xaonon
<tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
Uh-oh.
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
Ouch! And I thought my English class sucked.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe?
Because religion is a mound of absurdities, backed up by other absurdities and
circular logic. It's conceptually useless and experimentally unverifiable. Not
to mention the hate it tends to produce -- look at Northern Ireland, the Middle
East, and so forth.
> Also, why do others believe?
Not everyone who has eyes can see. Being conditioned from birth to believe
something is an extremely hard habit to break oneself of.
--
Xaonon, EAC Chief of Mad Scientists and informal BAAWA, aa #1821, Kibo #: 1
Visit The Nexus Of All Coolness (a.k.a. my site) at http://xaonon.cjb.net/
"May all our thoughts be beautiful. May all our words be beautiful. May all
our actions be beautiful." -- The Yasa of the Sani
William Barwell
Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>
The problem starts with there being so many differing gods.
Christianity tells us we will go to hell if we do not
believe that Jesus Christ was teh son of god, Islam tells
us that claim is a grand insult against god, and we will go to hell
if we claim Jesus was son of god.
So the question is, is there a god and which god is the true god?
Now the problem shifts to one of evidence for these claimed
gods. And the problem is, there is no evidence.
Worse yet, these religions make claims.
God is omnibenevolent.
God is all powerful, omnipotent.
But evil exists.
So despite claims, god is either
not omnibenevolent, omnipotent, or neither,
or non-existant.
The problem of evil.
In an attempt to prove god, theology for may centuries has tried
to erect proofs that god exists, these proofs are known
as natural theology. The problem is that very few such
proofs have been created, and they all fail. In the 1700's
Emmanual Kant collected these proofs and pointed out their failure
in an attempt to get theology to find better proofs and abandon these
failed natural religion proofs.
But no good natural proofs have been found since then.
So natural theology fails, we have problems such as the
problem of evil that disprove the claims made about god by theology,
and revealed religion proves nothing, just makes claims
that those who do not believe are damned, all damning each
others followers for following the wrong religion.
Back in the days of the Milesian Greek thinkers,
these thinkers first started to ask questions about
the nature of the real world, the nature of the mechanisms,
how things really worked.
The world began to be divided into what we now call
teh natural world, and the supernatural world.
As science progressed, there was no need to invoke gods
or supernatural entities. In fact, there is now the
recognition that the natural world is all there is in
science, science has been rather successful because it ignores
gods and such things.
God is now reduced to the "god of the gaps", the theologians
claiming god is responsible for things science has yet
gotten around to dealing with, but as has been noted,
this is a foolish game, god has been ousted from gaps
many times as science closed such gaps.
God is just a sort of "just so" story, with no explanatory
power, no usefulness, no real existance.
In fact it is now realized, that theology has long intruded
on the homegrounds of science and been perfectly wrong
about everything it has made pronouncements on, near
100% error. The world is not flat, the world is not the center of the
Universe, the sun does not orbit the earth, all these dogmas
were wrong.
Theology and god not only explain nothing, the dogmatic
explanations theology has offered us have turned out
to be almost totally wrong.
This calls theology's methodology and claims into question.
So, god as a concept founders on the revealed religion front.
No revelation can be proven true, many are obviously wrong.
For example in the new testament, Jesus makes prophecies
that he will preside over judgement day 1950 years ago.
(Matthew 16:27-8, Matthew 24 - 25, Luke 21, Mark 13, Matthew 26:64).
Obviously these books are not to be trusted.
Natural religion has not proven anything over thousands of years of
trying.
God is represented far differently in these books than
the supposed grand god of theology. In the Bible, god
is often vicious, brutal, petty, foolish, and silly.
In Judges, he is said to heve been with Judah when Judah
attacked people living in mountaous areas, but he
could not defeat the peoples of the vallies for they had
chariots of iron.
Not a very impressive 'god'.
God does not explain anything in the natural world.
Supernaturalism explains nothing at all, it does not
even seem to exist. Science has had to abandon god because
there is never any trace whatsoever of such a thing
to be found.
Religion has proven to be wrong when it makes pronouncements
on the natural world that could be checked by science,
it obviously does not work to take verses out of the
Bible or Quran and treat them as true in all cases.
The problem of evil and other paradoxes and puzzles
strongly suggest that the god theology has claimed exists
for centuries does not exist as claimed.
Can god do the impossible, the illogical?
can he create a square circle? Obviously
not, if he could, he could create a world where
no moral evil exists, where every man or woman freely
chooses to do good and yet has free will.
Obviously, we do not live in any sort of world like
that.
Theologians such as St Thomas Aquinas thus were forced
to admit then, that no, god cannot do such impossible things.
Then the question is, where do such limits come from that even god
must obey them?
What makes the possible possible, the impossible impossible?
What is impossible for god? What evidence do we have
for any such claims theology may make in this realm?
Maybe it is indeed impossible for god to do such things because
it is impossible for such a god to exist.
How would a god exist apart from matter, what would be the physics of such
a god, the biology as it were of god?
We get no answers.
We just find puzzles, paradoxes, and contradictions.
God as theology claims him to exist, obviously then, cannot exist.
Their methology for making any such claims has proven to
be a failure nearly 100% where it can be checked.
Not a single bit of evidence for god is to be found.
Logically speaking, natural theology has been a failure.
And puzzles and contradictions and paradoxes strongly suggest
that god does not and cannot exist.
Some of this has been discussed since the days of the
ancient Greeks, from the days of the 1600's more
prople have been able to write on such things and discuss
them freely, and more and more problems have been found with
the god idea.
Many people do not believe because they notice such things too.
As many historians and Atheist writers have noted, the
religous wars and battles between sects and denominations
and religions have created more Atheists than any other
source. Because these bare the flaws of the claims of
god, and when revealed religion is seen as hollow and
empty, the other problems with the idea of god shows
that Atheism is the only real viable way of thinking about
god and religion.
Also, war creates Atheists. WWI and WWII tore faith away
from many, so many horrors, so few answered prayers.
Despite promises in the Bible god does answer prayers.
*******************************************************************
Mark 11:22-3
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have Faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and
shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that these
things he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
********************************************************************
Matthew 21:21
21 And all things, whatsoever you ask in prayer, believing, you shall
recieve.
*********************************************************************
John 14:12-14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works
that I do shall he do also; and greater works shall he do; because
I go unto my Father.
13 And whatever ye shall ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father
may be glorified in the son.
14 If ye ask anything in my name, I will do it.
***********************************************************************
Matthew 18:18-19
19 Verily I say unto you, if two of you shall agree on earth as
touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them
of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the
midst of them.
************************************************************************
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!
Michelle Malkin
wrote:
Paul in Tampa, Florida, is this you?
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
aa #1 ULC #3 EAC Bible Thumper Thumper
BAAWA Knight Who Says SPONG! SMASH member
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
http://www.50megs.com/www2/questioner
http://www2.50megs.com/questioner/
http://www.thehungersite.com
http://bigcats.care2.com
http://rainforest.care2.com//
ShrubNeptune
http://skeptic.com
and order a copy of Michael Shermer's "How We Believe." It's the result of
a huge scientific study to address your exact question.
Animeg3282
>
>
>
>Hey,
>
>I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
>most-hated questions here.
>
>I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
>religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
>But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser to
>is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
>why do they not believe? Also, why do others believe?
>
>I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
>information about the subject.
>
>Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
I don't think there is enough evidence to focus my whole life around it.
Hana no Kaitou
This sig sucks. Bear with me.
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282 <---Fancy Lala Club!
http://members.fortunecity.com/animeg3282/dic.html <--1 kid and a dictionary-
translating....
Elf Sternberg
arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) writes:
> As you see, most atheists are amoral or have negative
>selfish morals. This is the number reason why it is better
>for people to believe in God than for people not to believe
>in God. A world populated with atheists is a pure jungle...
Arctic, don't you ever get tired of being a liar for Jesus?
Buddhists don't believe in a god or gods, but they're a moral people.
Atheists don't want to run amok and ruin the good world in which they
live; if anything, they're more committed to making it a better place
than theists are because they know that, one, nobody else is "out there"
to step in and help, and two, because it's the only life they have.
If you want to demonstrate atheistic morality, start by showing
a truly atheistic culture. Have you noticed that as church attendance
and belief in God has decreased in both the US and Europe, so too has
the crime rate? That the worst counties in North America for domestic
battery are also among the most church attending? That broken homes are
less common among unbelievers than almost any religious group (and *all*
Christian denominations)?
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.halcyon.com/elf/
"You know how some people treat their body like a temple?
I treat mine like issa amusement park!" - Kei
Elf Sternberg
sky...@aol.com (Skypher) writes:
>I believe in God because I don't believe life was/is an accident or came about
>from some unknowledgeable, meaningless reaction.
Personal incredulity is no excuse for a bad conclusion.
>I also believe in God because of the automatic responses to good and
>evil that occurs in all species.
Bacteria are capable of "good and evil" responses? By the way,
Skypher, the attribution of knowledge of good and evil to any species
other than human beings is a false teaching.
>I also believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
Again, the one does not mean the other. Get your head out of
the sand and actually study the subjects you blather about.
Bored With The Boring Again
>Subject: Re: Why is it that some people don't believe in God?
>From: patrick...@my-deja.com
>Date: 2/11/01 4:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <966071$s8g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <20010210203857...@ng-fr1.aol.com>,
> arctic...@aol.com (ArcticBonfire) wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>> 2. People who are devoutly religious tend to be more honest than
>atheists,
>> and honesty promotes synergy, cooperation, and teamwork.
>
>Patrick Brown wrote :
>
>Tom, s word of warning about ArcticBonfire. He claims to be an atheist,
>yet he constantly argues against atheism and in favour of Christianity,
>and has even let his mask slip so far as to threaten people with hell.
>I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about his honesty.
>
>Skypher replies :
>Perhaps he is an atheist that doesn't like atheism?
Kind of like yourself?
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight | "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
======
Remove god to respond.
======
At one point in time, many of us actually had Jesus as
our personal lord and saviour. Unfortunately, we later
had to dismiss him for incompetence, gross negligence,
misconduct and consistent failure to show up for work.
*nemo*
Tom Brutin <tran...@coolemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
>
>
>
> I'm new here and forgive me if that what I'm about to ask is one of the
> most-hated questions here.
Asking for forgiveness in advance? That doesn't sound promising...
>
> I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of us.
You know, it's a little amusing to me how every so often, we get someone
coming in here, posting a similar thing - I'm studying atheism for my
college/high school/whatever class. I think it's damn weird.
> But I was thinking about several things and one question i need an anwser
to
> is : What are the reason of some people not to believe in a higher being,
> why do they not believe?
We find it unbelievable. If you take a close look at any religion, you'll
see what I mean.
> Also, why do others believe?
>
Because they wish it were true.
> I hope anyone of you can give me his/her opinion on it or can provide some
> information about the subject.
>
But... you didn't ask any questions about the subject of your assignment!
For the record, the idea that religion is a necessary glue to hold people
and societies together is a myth perpetrated and supported by the priests
who benefit from the acceptance by society of this lie.
> Thank you to everyone who wants to help me.
>
> Tom Brutin
>
>
You're welcome. I hope you enjoy the answers you get. The printable ones, at
least...
>
>
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.att.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
**************************************************
Always up for a little grilled sacred scroll
-
With just a dash of innuendo added for fun...
**************************************************
*nemo*
Elf Sternberg <e...@halcyon.com> wrote in message
news:9656j4$6bd$1...@brokaw.wa.com...
> In article <Lrih6.7815$w_6.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>
> "Tom Brutin" <tran...@coolemail.com> writes:
>
> >I'm in my senior year of high school and I have to make an thesis about
> >religon and why religion is healthy and good for each and every one of
> >us.
>
> possibility that religion is not necessarily "good" for "us," whoever
> that "us" happens to be?
Even in public schools, I'll bet this wouldn't be an option. Especially in
the Bible belt, where I live.
<snip>
> Elf
>
> --
> Elf M. Sternberg, rational romantic mystical cynical idealist
> http://www.halcyon.com/elf/
>
> Fast food restaurants are like gay bathhouses in San Francisco,
> places where people go to engage in high-risk behaviors.
> - Greg Critser
*nemo*
<snip>
> >I also believe in God because meaning and concsiousness exist.
>
> Again, the one does not mean the other. Get your head out of
> the sand and actually study the subjects you blather about.
What? Just imagine it! Skypher taking the time to learn how to *think*!
Ah well... it's just a dream, anyway...
>
> Elf
>
> --
> Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
> http://www.halcyon.com/elf/
>
> "You know how some people treat their body like a temple?
> I treat mine like issa amusement park!" - Kei
--
Dave Holloway
wrote:
>patrick...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Tom, s word of warning about ArcticBonfire. He claims to be an atheist,
>> yet he constantly argues against atheism and in favour of Christianity,
>
>Patrtick Brown that I argue in favor of Christianity. Ask him to supply
>you with a single post wherein I argue in favor of the truth Christianity.
>Patrick Brown is a liar.
>
>> has even let his mask slip so far as to threaten people with hell.
>
I just realized this -- you know who ArcticBonfire reminds me of?
Steve Buscemi's character in "Armageddon."
Remember him? He was purportedly a genius -- we were led to believe
that he could quickly solve a Rubik's Cube and pinpoint his location
on an asteroid the size of Texas. But he was an annoying little
weasel, he quickly ended up serving no useful purpose other than comic
relief, his presence on the mission was actually a net negative, and
-- most revealing of all, I think -- his "love interest" was bought
and paid for.
Dave
--
From the warped mind of Dave Holloway, #1184
Quotemeister; DDS, EAC Mars Division; Disgruntled Merkin
Finally updated: http://thinking.welcome.to