The Faith of Evolution
JDF
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.
EVOLUTIONISM
I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
always existed?
Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
did you finally find the end of the universe?
Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
the only begotten Son of God.
Christopher A. Lee
[totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
>EVOLUTIONISM
A paranoid and dishonest label invented by extreme fundamentaist
Christians in a dishonest attempt to label everybody else except them,
to pretend that reality is an -ism in competition with theirs.
>I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
What "faith" would that be, liar?
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
>always existed?
Strawman.
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
No, liar. Look up "non-sequitur".
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
>did you finally find the end of the universe?
What "matter and energy ball" would that be, moron? Look up "straw
man".
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
Except that until you demonstrate otherwise it exists only in your
imagination - rather like your cartoon caricature of the big bang.
>Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
What "ball of a god" would that be liar?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
What "god" would that be, liar?
>If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
>the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
Nobody "trusts in" evolution, liar, it's an observed and well
understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
every day.
[more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
Idiot.
John Hattan
>CREATIONISM
>20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
>clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
>eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
>neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
>their foolish heart was darkened.
>22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
>like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>creeping things.
>
>EVOLUTIONISM
>I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
>always existed?
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
>did you finally find the end of the universe?
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
Evolution has nothing to do with the size of the universe.
>Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
>If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
>the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
So lemme see if I understand your arguments about evolution. You make
two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
I'm convinced.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
jo...@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
Ichimusai
[...]
> EVOLUTIONISM
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
No you don't. You know that evolutionism is a made up label by
christians primarily in order to escape the metaphysical inconvenience
called reality. You know, that which does not go away just because you
chose to ignore it.
I suspect you are just a troll, but in the event that you are just an
unedcuated moron, you should consider learning something about the
science of evolutionary biology before you make such a fool out of
yourself. You are welcome to restate your questions in a sensical way
in the group talk.origins where there are many people working in the
field who can answer most of your questions.
Another good resource on the net is the talk.origins archive website,
http://www.talkorigins.org/ where you can find many FAQ's and so on.
[...]
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo Messenger: ichimusai
Home: http://www.ichimusai.org/ IRC Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet
UNIX Sex
{look;find;talk;grep;touch;finger;find;flex;unzip;mount;workbone;
fsck;yes;gasp;fsck;yes;eject;umount;makeclean;zip;split;done;exit}
OpieTaylor
attempt.
As to the after-death future portrayed in your all-encompassing bible, I've
never been able to find a christian who could tell me a damned thing about the
attributes of that afterlife. If you think you're an exception, tell us a bit
about what heaven is like and what we'll be doing for eternity in this utopia.
For example, are there trees in heaven? Or, will we be changed somehow after
the first two three billion years? You know, something we can hang our hats on.
Inquiring minds want to know.
----------
On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
<snip>
|If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
|the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
<snip>
_____________________________________
Regards, Opie
He who knows one religion knows none.
thamus
> CREATIONISM
I'll let you define "Creationism" however you want, it's your
bloody theory.
> EVOLUTIONISM
> Do you BELIEVE
> that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang always existed?
This has nothing to do with evolution.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or did
> you finally find the end of the universe?
This has nothing to do with evolution. You creationists should
really get together and pay for a biology class or two, but of
course then you might actually learn something..
--
Thamus http://www.thamus.org/eac/
Random headline:
13 Year Old Boy Sentenced In Priest Defrocking Scandal
http://www.thamus.org/News/investigative/Defrocking_Scandal.html
Mark Gradwell
"JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
>
> EVOLUTIONISM
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Poor choice of words and capitalization. If you mean what I think you do.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> always existed?
Yes. Actually I do.
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
No I don't.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
Read what you wrote again and I hope you'll agree this sentence doesn't make
any sense.
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
No, not at all. There's evidence for what I believe. There's no evidence for
God.
> Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
Sort of. It's hardly a god though.
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
Only to you and some other theists.
>
> If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem with
what you just said.
<snip>
--
Yours,
Mark
aa#1478
raven1
>CREATIONISM
>20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
>clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
>eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
>neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
>their foolish heart was darkened.
>22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
>like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>creeping things.
So in other words, you admit that creationism is based on religious
beliefs, not science. Good for you.
>
>EVOLUTIONISM
>I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Evolution isn't based on faith, it's the only rational conclusion from
masses of evidence.
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
>always existed?
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
>did you finally find the end of the universe?
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
The "Big Bang" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. You don't
even understand what it is you're criticizing.
>
>If you trust in evolution,
"Trust" in evolution?
> then the future is uncertain.
Irrelevant.
> Let's hope
>the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
The usual resort of creationists: they have no science to show us, so
they resort to threats. Yawn.
>
>John 3
>17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
>that the world through him might be saved.
>18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
>not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
>the only begotten Son of God.
This is also irrelevant: there are millions of Christians, including
the Roman Catholic Church, who have no problems accepting Jesus *and*
evolution.
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>CREATIONISM
...a worthless piece of drivel, simply there to be laughed at.
>EVOLUTIONISM
Is that like gravity-ism?
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Elf M. Sternberg
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> always existed?
There's some debate about that. Right now I'm with the
inflationary theory: that the universe as we know it is embedded in an
eternal context in which "matter" and "energy" are small and distinct
phenomena.
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
Non-sequitor. Rocks were here before I was; does that mean that
I was here when the rocks were here? You're being logically
inconsistent.
Besides, why *do* people want everlasting life, anyway?
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
Nonsense. Just because it's too large to comprehend with the
human mind doesn't mean that the basic principles of it are likewise
incomprehensible. While I may not be able to tell you the geography of
Pluto, a clear understanding of the principles of geography can tell me
more or less what's possible out there.
The difference between your beliefs and mine-- yours that some
supercomplicated superconscious being from "nothing" created all matter,
and mine that ordinary consciousness with its ordinary complexity
emerged from simple matter, is that yours is utterly hopeless-- you have
no control of your destiny, no hope of every understanding the world
around, no way whatsoever to hold in your imagination the real
possibilities of what the universe entails.
> If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
And there it is, boys and girls. In the end, the Christian is
no different from the fanatical Muslim: "Worship MY god, bunky, or get
your ass napalmed by my Cosmic Space Monkey."
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg will be unavailable during November.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/
John Baker
"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jfnctucbn3kjmeeb4...@4ax.com...
>
> [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
> that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
That's just it. Most of these morons apparently *don't* know that. They just
can't seem to get a handle on the fact that it *is* meaninless outside their
religion. They seem to believe that all they have to do is assert, and we'll
be instantly converted.
> Idiot.
>
Zeplerfer
>> [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
>> that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
>
>That's just it. Most of these morons apparently *don't* know that. They just
>can't seem to get a handle on the fact that it *is* meaninless outside their
>religion.
Hell, some of it is meaningless *within* their religion. Who cares who begot
who?
>They seem to believe that all they have to do is assert, and we'll
>be instantly converted.
Indeed, all they have to do is assert from among many choice verses. For
example:
"And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is
unclean unto you." Leviticus 11:6
And all will be instantly converted... to people who recognize the bible for
the piece of silliness it is ;)
~Zeplerfer #423
I am *not* the leader of the EAC Denial Dept.
In fact, there is *no* EAC.
Dr. Smartass
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Wrong start, spud. It's not a faith.
--
Doc Smartass-=-=-aa# 1939-=-=-BAAWA Knight
WINDOWS 98 WARNING:
The power switch is ON; your system is unstable.
"Beware A Smiling Dungeon Master." -- seen on t-shirt
Daniel Kolle
>EVOLUTIONISM
>I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Evolution is a faith? News to me.
Ichimusai
Everything is strange in the fundiverse...
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo Messenger: ichimusai
Home: http://www.ichimusai.org/ IRC Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet
The trouble with the global village are all the global village idiots
-- Paul Ginsparg
Dick C
news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com:
> EVOLUTIONISM
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
You need a lot of help establishing your credibility after destroying
it with this post.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> always existed?
Huh? Since time started with the big bang, I guess that always means since
the big bang. So then, I guess I accept that matter and energy always
existed.
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
Now, that really makes no sense. What does matter and energy have to
do with everlasting life?
Matter and energy can exist without life, and certainly did for awhile
after the big bang.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
Neither.
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
Actually, not. The universe exists.
> Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
What god?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
Now, on that you are correct, since they both exist only in your
imagination.
--
Dick #1349
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
Andre Gide, French author and critic (1869-1951).
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email: crav...@msn.net
stoney
On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF), Message
ID: <5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
(snip ignorant idiocy)
Hmmm....nothing of substance left.
--
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
-----= Posted via Newsfeed.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeed.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== 100,000 Groups! - 19 Servers! - Unlimited Download! =-----
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>CREATIONISM
[gratuitous bible mining snipped]
>EVOLUTIONISM
[creationist straw men snipped]
Gee, wasn't that total waste of bandwidth fun?
--
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Zymurgist # 2
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>>CREATIONISM
>>EVOLUTIONISM
>So lemme see if I understand your arguments about evolution. You make
>two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
>it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
>I'm convinced.
Yeah, but what are you convinced OF, John? :)
thamus
> Daniel Kolle <DKo...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) thought hard and said:
>>
>> >EVOLUTIONISM
>> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>>
>> Evolution is a faith? News to me.
>
> Everything is strange in the fundiverse...
It's like Bizarro world!
--
Thamus http://www.thamus.org/eac/
Random headline:
Interview With The Pope: 2000 Years And Still Infallible
http://www.thamus.org/News/interviews/pope_not_wrong.html
JDF
>
> [totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
> >EVOLUTIONISM
>
> A paranoid and dishonest label invented by extreme fundamentaist
> Christians in a dishonest attempt to label everybody else except them,
> to pretend that reality is an -ism in competition with theirs.
>
> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>
> What "faith" would that be, liar?
>
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >always existed?
>
> Strawman.
>
> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>
> No, liar. Look up "non-sequitur".
have no hope. Everything you do in your life will be pointless, only
to die with you.
>
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> >did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> What "matter and energy ball" would that be, moron? Look up "straw
> man".
>
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>
> Except that until you demonstrate otherwise it exists only in your
> imagination - rather like your cartoon caricature of the big bang.
>
> >Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>
> What "ball of a god" would that be liar?
>
> > Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
> What "god" would that be, liar?
to you.
>
> >If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> Nobody "trusts in" evolution, liar, it's an observed and well
> understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
> etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
> medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
> every day.
and yet you laugh at creationist when they believe that God is proved
by the existence of these things. Who is the hypocrite?
>
> [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
> that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
If you don't have any arguments then just call me names.
> Idiot.
JDF
> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>
> >CREATIONISM
> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> >their foolish heart was darkened.
> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> >creeping things.
> >
> >EVOLUTIONISM
> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >always existed?
> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>
> Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
close)what is the origin of evolution.
> Evolution has nothing to do with the size of the universe.
> two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
> it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
>
> I'm convinced.
he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
could also be used to prove God.
Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
Convince me.
JDF
> "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
>
> >
> > EVOLUTIONISM
> > I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>
> Poor choice of words and capitalization. If you mean what I think you do.
>
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > always existed?
>
> Yes. Actually I do.
>
> > Then you believe in everlasting life?
>
> No I don't.
Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
energy today?
>
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> Read what you wrote again and I hope you'll agree this sentence doesn't make
> any sense.
energy is in the universe. If you do, how did you calculate it without
knowing the limits of the universe. If you have not found the limit's
of the universe(which I believe is permeated with matter and energy),
is it safe to assume that matter and energy is infinite.
>
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>
> No, not at all. There's evidence for what I believe. There's no evidence for
> God.
is from life and its workings.
>
> > Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>
> Sort of. It's hardly a god though.
>
You're right.
> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem with
> what you just said.
Thinking about that one again. I assume it was the trust part. When I
use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
word evidence becomes "faith". All of that evidence that you claim for
evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
> <snip>
JDF
> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>
> >CREATIONISM
> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> >their foolish heart was darkened.
> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> >creeping things.
>
> So in other words, you admit that creationism is based on religious
> beliefs, not science. Good for you.
>
> >
> >EVOLUTIONISM
> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>
> Evolution isn't based on faith, it's the only rational conclusion from
> masses of evidence.
rational conclusion from masses of evidence. Can you deny this? and
prove it of course.
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >always existed?
> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> >did you finally find the end of the universe?
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
> >Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
> > Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
> The "Big Bang" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. You don't
> even understand what it is you're criticizing.
>
> >
> >If you trust in evolution,
>
> "Trust" in evolution?
>
> > then the future is uncertain.
>
> Irrelevant.
> > Let's hope
> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> The usual resort of creationists: they have no science to show us, so
> they resort to threats. Yawn.
Does science disprove God? Science is enough to prove evolution,
but falls short of proving God? Since both have the same evidences
wouldn't it make more sense to go with the one that had a
Creator(engineer,builder,overseer,etc...)
> >
> >John 3
> >17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> >that the world through him might be saved.
> >18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
> >not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
> >the only begotten Son of God.
>
> This is also irrelevant: there are millions of Christians, including
> the Roman Catholic Church, who have no problems accepting Jesus *and*
> evolution.
The problem is- to accept Jesus, is to believe Jesus, is to believe
His word, is to believe this:
Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that
are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or
dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
JDF
> In alt.atheism on 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net
> (JDF) let us all know that:
> >CREATIONISM
>
> ...a worthless piece of drivel, simply there to be laughed at.
Even if you never give much thought to life, you still have to admit
that it had a beginning.
>
>
> >EVOLUTIONISM
>
> Is that like gravity-ism?
You'd better go with this one and hope for the best.
Mark Gradwell
"JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
> "Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:<3QWdnczLraZ...@giganews.com>...
> > "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> >
> > >
> > > EVOLUTIONISM
> > > I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >
> > Poor choice of words and capitalization. If you mean what I think you
do.
> >
> > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > > always existed?
> >
> > Yes. Actually I do.
> Finally, a simple answer.
:o). But with an explanation that is both complex and extremely simple.
Depending on how much detail you are willing and able to go into. Which is
still being refined by cosmologists. I would suggest a search of the
internet and your local library to find out what "always" actually means
when used with the word "universe".
> >
> > > Then you believe in everlasting life?
> >
> > No I don't.
> Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
> life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
> energy today?
Sort of and at this time of year too. Conkers for instance:o). Grow into
dirty great big trees they do. All by themselves. Undeniably of course
Conkers come from Conker trees but you can observe relative simplicity
generating relative complexity when you plant them in the ground.
I suppose you can observe the same sort of thing with people but you need
doctors and microscopes and things. But you don't have to wait as long to
play Conkers with the results of your experiments;o).
> >
> > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > > did you finally find the end of the universe?
> >
> > Read what you wrote again and I hope you'll agree this sentence doesn't
make
> > any sense.
> Ok, I'll reword it. Does anyone have any idea how much matter and
> energy is in the universe.
Yes. Again I would refer you to internet guides and coffee table books both
reputable and otherwise.
> If you do, how did you calculate it without
> knowing the limits of the universe.
I don't know the maths involved but have a very rough idea about present
cosmological theories. Cosmologists do indeed put these "limits" as you say
into them.
> If you have not found the limit's
> of the universe(which I believe is permeated with matter and energy),
> is it safe to assume that matter and energy is infinite.
Infinity? There's no evidence for such a thing. Again I ask you to read some
cosmology books and possibly watch a TV doccumentary or two. If they are
available in your area. Perhaps in the form of VHS or DVD volumes in your
local library.
The book and film of "A Brief History Of Time" by Steven Hawking might be a
good one to start with. Or "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan.
> >
> > > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
> >
> > No, not at all. There's evidence for what I believe. There's no evidence
for
> > God.
> Actually, your evidence fits better with my belief, if your evidence
> is from life and its workings.
How?
<snip>
>
> > > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
> >
> > I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem
with
> > what you just said.
>
> Thinking about that one again. I assume it was the trust part.
No not at all;o). You said that the future was uncertain if I were right and
then said that I wasn't going to like it if I was. The point I was trying to
point out (a very simple one IMO) is how would one know this in the first
place if it was uncertain.
> When I
> use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
> word evidence becomes "faith". All of that evidence that you claim for
> evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
No it isn't. Again how come the evidence for evolution is evidence for God?
--
Yours,
Mark
aa#1478
maff
> CREATIONISM
> 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> their foolish heart was darkened.
> 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things.
>
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> always existed?
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> that the world through him might be saved.
> 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
> not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
> the only begotten Son of God.
Statements from Scientific Organizations
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/8882_statements_from_scientific_org_1_30_2001.asp
Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the
scientific explanation for biodiversity. See the God and Evolution FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
and the Interpretations of Genesis FAQ.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/interpretations.html
Voices for evolution
http://www.natcenscied.org/article.asp?category=2
Part Three: Religious Organizations
American Jewish Congress
American Scientific Affiliation
Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences
Central Conference of American Rabbis
Episcopal Bishop of Alabama, Pastoral Letter
Episcopal Church, General Convention
Lexington Alliance of Religious Leaders
Lutheran World Federation
Roman Catholic Church
Unitarian-Universalist Association (1977)
Unitarian Universalist Association (1982)
United Church Board for Homeland Ministries
United Methodist Church
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. (1982)
United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. (1983)
"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens,
and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the
stars and even their sizes and distances, and this knowledge he holds
with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and
disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about
such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We
should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation,
lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to
scorn."
-- St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" (The Literal
Meaning of Genesis)
Talk Origins Archive FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
Suspicious Creationist Credentials FAQ
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/credentials.html
Talk.Origins Archive's Creationism FAQs
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-creationists.html
Creationism and Pseudo Science
http://members.home.net/fsteiger/creation.htm
IS CREATIONISM FOR REAL?
http://www.enconnect.net/rjtolle/
Greene's Creationism Truth Filter
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/
Glenn Morton's Creation/Evolution Page
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
Kansans Electing Board of Education
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages?msg=177.1 -
Practical applications of Evolutionary Biology
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages?msg=138.1 -
The Road to Riches
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages/?msg=90.1 -
Enemies of Science & Knowledge
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages/?msg=126.1 -
Darwin's Precursors and Influences
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/darwin-precursors.html
The fittest conscience: new take on evolution
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/08/03/p1s4.htm
Charles Darwin
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages?msg=107.1 -
Jacob Bronowski
http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism2/messages?msg=219.1 -
--
"It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into
numbers. That is false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is
the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where
people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes
of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done
by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge,
with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do
when they aspire to the knowledge of gods (374)."
http://skepdic.com/theories.html
bfe...@sbcglobal.net
> You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
> he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> could also be used to prove God.
> Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
>
> Convince me.
Start by telling me what you mean by God. Give me an operational
definition,
give me a definitive list of characteristics such that we may conclusively
identify, for any given candidate, whether that candidate is God or not.
Betcha can't.
Bill
Why search for Artificial Intelligence when we have such
a crying need for the Natural kind? - Michael Flynn
Pope Dilbert
> raven1 <psyched...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:<ui6dtugqn69v2iiqk...@4ax.com>...
> > On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
> >
> > >CREATIONISM
> > >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> > >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> > >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> > >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> > >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> > >their foolish heart was darkened.
> > >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> > >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> > >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> > >creeping things.
> >
> > So in other words, you admit that creationism is based on religious
> > beliefs, not science. Good for you.
> >
> > >
> > >EVOLUTIONISM
> > >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >
> > Evolution isn't based on faith, it's the only rational conclusion from
> > masses of evidence.
> How about this? Creationism isn't based on faith, it's the only
> rational conclusion from masses of evidence. Can you deny this? and
> prove it of course.
There is no need to deny something that has nothing to support it.
There is not ONE shred of evidence supporting creationism!
John Baker
> How about this? Creationism isn't based on faith, it's the only
> rational conclusion from masses of evidence. Can you deny this? and
> prove it of course.
You made the claim, Sparky. It's up to you to supply the evidence. You'll
forgive me if I don't hold my breath..........
Ichimusai
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:18:56 +0100, Ichimusai wrote:
>
> > Daniel Kolle <DKo...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) thought hard and said:
> >>
> >> >EVOLUTIONISM
> >> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >>
> >> Evolution is a faith? News to me.
> >
> > Everything is strange in the fundiverse...
>
> It's like Bizarro world!
Except, when you and I read Bizarro we /know/ it's a comic...
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo Messenger: ichimusai
Home: http://www.ichimusai.org/ IRC Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet
"If I have not seen further than other men it is because giants have
been standing on me shoulders."
Walking on Glass
> CREATIONISM
> 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> their foolish heart was darkened.
> 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things.
>
> EVOLUTIONISM
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
There is no "faith" of evolution, just the *fact* of evolution, and the
theory of evolution.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> always existed?
Matter and energy don't consist of the big bang.
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
Everlasting life has to violate conservation of energy somewhere... so
no, I don't.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
Not known at this time, and makes no difference to my beliefs either way.
> Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
And you known this how, exactly? Could you point out your god in a police
line-up?
> Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
I don't have a god.
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
No, it sounds like you are creating a strawman god out of the Universe. I
already have a perfectly good word for the Universe - the Universe - no
need to make it a divinity.
> If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain.
So what if it is? Why are you so insecure as to need certainties? As the
saying goes: there are only two certainties in life - death, and
taxation.
You keep hold of the comfort blanket called religion, and let us who are
unafraid of going forth into the unknown light a path for you.
> Let's hope
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
Pascal's wager eh? That old lame horse? Yawn.
--
Walking on Glass (remove NOSPAM to email me)
AA #2053 Zymurgist #12
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or
you can inoculate...Try science"
Carl Sagan - "The Demon-Haunted World"
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>Don Kresch <ROT13....@npebarg.arg.getridof.com> wrote in message news:<v89dtuon80ktohfp9...@4ax.com>...
>> In alt.atheism on 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net
>> (JDF) let us all know that:
>> >CREATIONISM
>>
>> ...a worthless piece of drivel, simply there to be laughed at.
>
>Even if you never give much thought to life, you still have to admit
>that it had a beginning.
As god must have, then.
Or else you contradict your own premise.
Which shall it be? Which shall it be?
>>
>>
>> >EVOLUTIONISM
>>
>> Is that like gravity-ism?
> You'd better go with this one and hope for the best.
IOW: you don't understand your own post.
You're an idiot.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>>
>> >CREATIONISM
>> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
>> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
>> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
>> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
>> >their foolish heart was darkened.
>> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
>> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>> >creeping things.
>> >
>> >EVOLUTIONISM
>> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
>> >always existed?
>> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>>
>> Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
>I'll accept that, but you'll need to tell me exactly(or something
>close)what is the origin of evolution.
No, he does not. Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.
>> Evolution has nothing to do with the size of the universe.
> So not all of the universe evolved?
Evolution is describing the diversity of life on the Earth. It
has nothing to do with how the universe came to be or functions.
>> So lemme see if I understand your arguments about evolution. You make
>> two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
>> it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
>>
>> I'm convinced.
>You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
>he doesn't.
Irrelevant.
> In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
>could also be used to prove God.
No it couldn't.
>Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
>environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
Don't have to. We don't have the onus of proof.
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>>
>> >CREATIONISM
>> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
>> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
>> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
>> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
>> >their foolish heart was darkened.
>> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
>> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>> >creeping things.
>>
>> So in other words, you admit that creationism is based on religious
>> beliefs, not science. Good for you.
>>
>> >
>> >EVOLUTIONISM
>> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>>
>> Evolution isn't based on faith, it's the only rational conclusion from
>> masses of evidence.
>How about this? Creationism isn't based on faith, it's the only
>rational conclusion from masses of evidence. Can you deny this?
Yes.
> and prove it of course.
We don't have the onus of proof in that situation. You do.
Go to it.
[snip]
>> The "Big Bang" has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. You don't
>> even understand what it is you're criticizing.
>You evolutionist can't even agree on this?
What's an "evolutionist"? Is that like a gravity-ist?
[snip]
>> The usual resort of creationists: they have no science to show us, so
>> they resort to threats. Yawn.
> Does science disprove God? Science is enough to prove evolution,
>but falls short of proving God? Since both have the same evidences
>wouldn't it make more sense to go with the one that had a
>Creator(engineer,builder,overseer,etc...)
No.
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>>
>> [totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
> People can put up with all kinds of things, but the Bible has to go.
No. Irrelevant things have to go.
[snip]
>> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>>
>> No, liar. Look up "non-sequitur".
> At least you know that you are going to die someday. Without God you
>have no hope.
Non sequitur.
> Everything you do in your life will be pointless, only
>to die with you.
Really? So the Taj Mahal no longer exists? The Pyramids no longer
exist? Their builders died, so those things must no longer exist,
according to you.
Idiot.
[snip]
>> >If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
>> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>>
>> Nobody "trusts in" evolution, liar, it's an observed and well
>> understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
>> etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
>> medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
>> every day.
> You say that evolution is proved by the existence of these things,
>and yet you laugh at creationist when they believe that God is proved
>by the existence of these things.
Yep.
>Who is the hypocrite?
People like you.
raven1
>raven1 <psyched...@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<ui6dtugqn69v2iiqk...@4ax.com>...
>> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >EVOLUTIONISM
>> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>>
>> Evolution isn't based on faith, it's the only rational conclusion from
>> masses of evidence.
>How about this? Creationism isn't based on faith, it's the only
>rational conclusion from masses of evidence. Can you deny this?
Absolutely.
> and
>prove it of course.
Science doesn't deal in proof, it deals in evidence; that you don't
seem to know that is typical of the general lack of understanding of
science that creationists generally possess.
That said, there is simply no scientific evidence whatsoever to
support creationism. If you claim I'm wrong, feel free to present such
evidence. (Note: I'm not talking about the usual specious arguments
against evolution that creationists spout without understanding what
it is that they're criticizing, I'm talking about evidence *for*
creation).
(BTW, some questions that creationists never seem to be able to
answer: what exactly is your "theory of creation", what testable
predictions does it make, and what would falsify it? This is, of
course, assuming that you know what scientists mean by "theory" in the
first place...)
OTOH, you can view plenty of evidence for evolution at
www.talkorigins.org , among other places, or you might try picking up
a biology textbook.
Kirk Job-Sluder
JDF wrote:
> Even if you never give much thought to life, you still have to admit
> that it had a beginning.
At least one of the big differences between faith and science is that
with questions about how life on earth got started, "I don't know" is a
reasonable answer. More and more it appears that the basic components
of life naturally tend to become concentrated in conditions that could
produce life. However the exact process is still unknown. We do know
that no god is necessary to get from the long history of life from it's
origin to the present day.
What happened before the big bang? I don't know. Althought it looks as
if no god is necessary after the big bang.
The problem with filling in the blank and saying 'god did it' is that
all other possibilities are equally valid in the absence of information.
It could have been Tiamat. It could have been the Easter Bunny. The
argument from ignorance (we don't know what happened so it must be god)
is not very convincing.
Kirk
Mark K. Bilbo
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
Since there's no such thing as a "faith of evolution" you'll need a LOT
of help...
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language
is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't
just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary."
[James D. Nicoll]
Mark K. Bilbo
> Hope your right.
> If you don't have any arguments then just call me names.
One hundred and fifty years of evidence and research but you folk insist
nobody has any "arguments."
Look, YOU being ignorant is not OUR responsibility okay?
Arne Langsetmo
> news:<jfnctucbn3kjmeeb4...@4ax.com>...
> > On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
> >
> > [totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
>
> People can put up with all kinds of things, but the Bible has to go.
No. It's just that it's as irrelevant as a Danielle Steele
novel.
> > >EVOLUTIONISM
> >
> > A paranoid and dishonest label invented by extreme fundamentaist
> > Christians in a dishonest attempt to label everybody else except them,
> > to pretend that reality is an -ism in competition with theirs.
Lack of response duly noted.
> > >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >
> > What "faith" would that be, liar?
Lack of response duly noted.
> > >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > >always existed?
> >
> > Strawman.
Lack of response duly noted.
> > > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
> >
> > No, liar. Look up "non-sequitur".
>
> At least you know that you are going to die someday. . . .
We're not stupid. Apparently you have difficulty comprehending
this fact, though. Or at least accepting it. You might think
about trying to grow up. . . .
> . . . Without God you
> have no hope.
Hope of what? What's different when you believe in some
fictitions sky pixie? Doesn't it bother you that the
many _other_ deities _you_ disbelieve in will certainly
have it out for _you_ for your insolence? Going to do what I
do and put a Buddha, Shiva, and Korean pagan idol on top
of your monitor, just to beat Pascal's wager? ;-)
Oh yeah, that's right, your's is pretty much the only one with
a really _nasty_ disposition. . . .
"If there is a God, he is a malign thug."
-- S.L. Clemens
You sound like a good coward. . . .
> . . . Everything you do in your life will be pointless, only
> to die with you.
Try telling that to Einstein. He's dead, but he would have chuckled at
your stupidity.
> > >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > >did you finally find the end of the universe?
> >
> > What "matter and energy ball" would that be, moron? Look up "straw
> > man".
Lack of response duly noted.
> > > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
> >
> > Except that until you demonstrate otherwise it exists only in your
> > imagination - rather like your cartoon caricature of the big bang.
>
> I thought the big bang had to do with imagination.
I guess the previous poster was right.
> > >Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
> >
> > What "ball of a god" would that be liar?
Lack of response duly noted.
> > > Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
> >
> > What "god" would that be, liar?
>
> Actually, your god is your own intellect, and it happens to be lying
> to you.
Nonsense, of course. You'd like to think that, but it just isn't
true.
> > >If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
> >
> > Nobody "trusts in" evolution, liar, it's an observed and well
> > understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
> > etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
> > medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
> > every day.
>
> You say that evolution is proved by the existence of these things,
> and yet you laugh at creationist when they believe that God is proved
> by the existence of these things. . . .
That's because their "proof" is a can-o-shite masquerading as
science.
> Who is the hypocrite?
Not us.
> > [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
> > that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
>
> Hope your right.
No you don't. In fact, you've staked your whole life on the
truth of one single dubious proposition. Who's the gambler
betting on the pig in a poke?
> If you don't have any arguments then just call me names.
No. I'll just point out that you're not the sharpest knife in
the drawer. Which would seem to explain a lot.
Cheers,
-- Arne Langsetmo
a.a. #101
> > Idiot.
Arne Langsetmo
> news:<3QWdnczLraZ...@giganews.com>...
> > "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
[snip]
> > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > > always existed?
> >
> > Yes. Actually I do.
>
> Finally, a simple answer.
>
> > > Then you believe in everlasting life?
> >
> > No I don't.
>
> Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
> life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
> energy today?
Yep. Every day. That's the way it works, kiddo. No "breath
of life" from some invisible sky pixie needed to animate the clay.
[snip]
> Ok, I'll reword it. Does anyone have any idea how much matter and
> energy is in the universe. If you do, how did you calculate it without
> knowing the limits of the universe. If you have not found the limit's
> of the universe(which I believe is permeated with matter and energy),
> is it safe to assume that matter and energy is infinite.
We're getting a better idea. The big question is how much dark
matter is in the universe and if there's a cosmological
constant. But yes, both the size of the universe and the
amount of energy/matter can be found within limits, given answers
to the above questions (and barring a major upheaval of the
laws of physics; something which has never happpened before,
including the relativity theories).
[snip blather]
> > > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
> >
> > I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem with
> > what you just said.
>
> Thinking about that one again. I assume it was the trust part. . . .
No. It was the certainty of evolutionary predictions versus the
unverifiability of any Biblical predictions. If there's something
we can easily assure ourselves of, it is the evolutionary nature
of life. It has been demonstrated over and over again.
You may not be able to predict a single roll of the dice, but
one thing you do know is that roled enough times, you'll get
sevens a sixth of the time as close as you care to get.
> . . . When I
> use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
> word evidence becomes "faith". . . .
Which explains why you're having such difficulty being rational
(or even coherent) here.
> . . . All of that evidence that you claim for
> evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
Nonsense.
Cheers,
-- Arne Langsetmo
a.a #101
Billy Goat
> You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
> he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> could also be used to prove God.
> Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
>
> Convince me.
You're missing the point. We don't have to disprove your God to
disbelieve in Him. Nobody is morally obligated to believe unproved
things.
--Billy
G. Schofield
GTS here! Hello there Walking on Glass!
John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him Verily, verily, I say unto
thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Walking on Glass, neither will you be able to see the truth as long as
you adhere to lies of men.
JDF
> "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
>
> > You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
> > he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> > could also be used to prove God.
> > Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> > environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
> >
> > Convince me.
>
> Start by telling me what you mean by God. Give me an operational
> definition,
> give me a definitive list of characteristics such that we may conclusively
> identify, for any given candidate, whether that candidate is God or not.
> Betcha can't.
>
> Bill
found in the Bible. I'll paste some of them on here for you.
Psalms 33
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of
them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up
the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the
world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh
the devices of the people of none effect.
11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his
heart to all generations.
12 詐lessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom
he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
2 Peter 3
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the
heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in
the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water,
perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are
kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and
perdition of ungodly men.
By the way, you answered a question with a question. I assume that you
have no evidence disproving Him?
OpieTaylor
Wonderful logic too!
On 17 Nov 2002 14:36:41 -0800, fgsch...@juno.com (G. Schofield) wrote:
<snip>
JDF
> In alt.atheism on 17 Nov 2002 00:08:22 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net
> (JDF) let us all know that:
> >John Hattan <jo...@thecodezone.com> wrote in message news:<t4octukj3mm5qvatl...@4ax.com>...
> >> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
> >>
> >> >CREATIONISM
> >> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> >> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> >> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> >> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> >> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> >> >their foolish heart was darkened.
> >> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> >> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> >> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> >> >creeping things.
> >> >
> >> >EVOLUTIONISM
> >> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >> >always existed?
> >> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
> >>
> >> Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.
> >I'll accept that, but you'll need to tell me exactly(or something
> >close)what is the origin of evolution.
>
> No, he does not. Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.
faith to believe that it happened?
>
> >> Evolution has nothing to do with the size of the universe.
> > So not all of the universe evolved?
>
> Evolution is describing the diversity of life on the Earth. It
> has nothing to do with how the universe came to be or functions.
>
> >> So lemme see if I understand your arguments about evolution. You make
> >> two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
> >> it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
> >>
> >> I'm convinced.
> >You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
> >he doesn't.
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> > In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> >could also be used to prove God.
>
> No it couldn't.
emperor's clothes here?
>
> >Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> >environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
>
> Don't have to. We don't have the onus of proof.
OpieTaylor
On 17 Nov 2002 15:01:08 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
<snip>
|> No, he does not. Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.
|So evolutionists don't know squat about origins? They just have enough
|faith to believe that it happened?
<snip>
OpieTaylor
On 17 Nov 2002 14:47:51 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
<snip>
|7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up
|the depth in storehouses.
<snip>
JDF
That's right, but then you can never be sure that you're right, while
the absence of God remains proved to be unproven.
Walking on Glass
news:3e7e52fd.02111...@posting.google.com:
> GTS here! Hello there Walking on Glass!
Hi.
> John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him Verily, verily, I say unto
> thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
IOW you must believe in Christianity without doubt in order for
Christianity to appear true. If I choose to believe that oranges are blue,
does that make them so?
Just because the Bible says something does not make it so.
> Walking on Glass, neither will you be able to see the truth as long as
> you adhere to lies of men.
What lies would these be?
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
>> "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> > You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
>> > he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
>> > could also be used to prove God.
>> > Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
>> > environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
>> >
>> > Convince me.
>>
>> Start by telling me what you mean by God. Give me an operational
>> definition,
>> give me a definitive list of characteristics such that we may conclusively
>> identify, for any given candidate, whether that candidate is God or not.
>> Betcha can't.
>>
>> Bill
>Operational definition and the list of characteristics of God are
>found in the Bible. I'll paste some of them on here for you.
>Psalms 33
>6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of
>them by the breath of his mouth.
Meaningless ontologically.
Don Kresch
Non sequitur.
>> >> Evolution has nothing to do with the size of the universe.
>> > So not all of the universe evolved?
>>
>> Evolution is describing the diversity of life on the Earth. It
>> has nothing to do with how the universe came to be or functions.
>So you have no answers in this department?
Non sequitur.
>>
>> >> So lemme see if I understand your arguments about evolution. You make
>> >> two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
>> >> it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
>> >>
>> >> I'm convinced.
>> >You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
>> >he doesn't.
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>Except for the fact that you know that there is no God.
Of course. God is a meaningless utterance.
>>
>> > In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
>> >could also be used to prove God.
>>
>> No it couldn't.
>Just a statement?
Yep.
> No proof to back it up?
You offered nothing, so a simply gainsay sufficed.
>> >Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
>> >environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
>>
>> Don't have to. We don't have the onus of proof.
>The fact is: You can't.
The fact is: we don't have to. We don't have the onus of proof.
Don Kresch
(JDF) let us all know that:
Except that it doesn't.
JDF
> > > "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > EVOLUTIONISM
> > > > I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> > >
> do.
> > >
> > > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > > > always existed?
> > >
> > Finally, a simple answer.
>
> Depending on how much detail you are willing and able to go into. Which is
> still being refined by cosmologists. I would suggest a search of the
> internet and your local library to find out what "always" actually means
> when used with the word "universe".
>
> > >
> > > > Then you believe in everlasting life?
> > >
> > > No I don't.
> > Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
> > life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
> > energy today?
>
> dirty great big trees they do. All by themselves. Undeniably of course
> Conkers come from Conker trees but you can observe relative simplicity
> generating relative complexity when you plant them in the ground.
>
> I suppose you can observe the same sort of thing with people but you need
> doctors and microscopes and things. But you don't have to wait as long to
> play Conkers with the results of your experiments;o).
Actually, seeds are very complex, carrying the engineering codes for
the entire tree. I don't know if the tree is more complex or just
bigger.
Apart from that, you agree that life comes from life, matter, and
energy.
Does life ever come from just energy and matter?
> > >
> > > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > > > did you finally find the end of the universe?
> > >
> make
> > > any sense.
> > Ok, I'll reword it. Does anyone have any idea how much matter and
> > energy is in the universe.
>
> reputable and otherwise.
>
> > If you do, how did you calculate it without
> > knowing the limits of the universe.
>
> I don't know the maths involved but have a very rough idea about present
> cosmological theories. Cosmologists do indeed put these "limits" as you say
> into them.
>
> > If you have not found the limit's
> > of the universe(which I believe is permeated with matter and energy),
> > is it safe to assume that matter and energy is infinite.
>
> Infinity? There's no evidence for such a thing. Again I ask you to read some
> cosmology books and possibly watch a TV doccumentary or two. If they are
> available in your area. Perhaps in the form of VHS or DVD volumes in your
> local library.
>
> The book and film of "A Brief History Of Time" by Steven Hawking might be a
> good one to start with. Or "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan.
>
> > >
> > > > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
> > >
> > > No, not at all. There's evidence for what I believe. There's no evidence
> for
> > > God.
> > Actually, your evidence fits better with my belief, if your evidence
> > is from life and its workings.
>
> How?
Life always comes from life, even if it is as small as one cell.
God makes this claim:
John 11
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Can you tell me how life began from only matter and energy?
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > > > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > > > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
> > >
> > > I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem
> with
> > > what you just said.
> >
> > Thinking about that one again. I assume it was the trust part.
>
> No not at all;o). You said that the future was uncertain if I were right and
> then said that I wasn't going to like it if I was. The point I was trying to
> point out (a very simple one IMO) is how would one know this in the first
> place if it was uncertain.
I think you missed part of the quote. To clarify: You won't like it if
you are wrong about God and His claims. There are many uncertainties
about the future, but some things have been revealed.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment:
>
> > When I
> > use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
> > word evidence becomes "faith". All of that evidence that you claim for
> > evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
>
> No it isn't. Again how come the evidence for evolution is evidence for God?
#1 It fits perfectly.(If not, what part doesn't)
#2 Life comes from Life, never matter or energy alone.(At least it's
never been observed)
#3 The second Law of Thermodynamics states that all existing
matter/energy is proceeding irreversibly toward ultimate equilibrium
and cessation of all processes. ( evolution is going the opposite way)
#4 The Law of Casualty, that no effect can be greater that its cause,
is basic in all scientific investigation and human experience. A
universe comprising an array of intelligible and complex effects,
including living systems and conscious personalities, is itself proof
of an intelligent, complex, living, conscious Person as its Cause.
OpieTaylor
On 17 Nov 2002 16:09:13 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
|Life always comes from life, even if it is as small as one cell.
|God makes this claim: \
Where does god say he made a one-celled entity?
|John 11
|25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that
|believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
What does this have to do with this thread?
JDF
> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote in message news:<5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com>...
> > "Mark Gradwell" <mark...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> > news:<3QWdnczLraZ...@giganews.com>...
> > > "JDF" <smo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > > > always existed?
> > >
> > > Yes. Actually I do.
> >
> > Finally, a simple answer.
> >
> > > > Then you believe in everlasting life?
> > >
> > > No I don't.
> >
> > Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
> > life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
> > energy today?
>
> Yep. Every day. That's the way it works, kiddo. No "breath
> of life" from some invisible sky pixie needed to animate the clay.
>
example?
Neither Evolutionist nor Creationist have to trust in what they can
see from life. The trust that I'm talking about is in the origin of
life.
> > . . . When I
> > use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
> > word evidence becomes "faith". . . .
>
> Which explains why you're having such difficulty being rational
> (or even coherent) here.
I don't think so. Read your next reply.
>
> > . . . All of that evidence that you claim for
> > evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
>
> Nonsense.
>
It's one thing to say it, another to prove it.
> Cheers,
>
> -- Arne Langsetmo
> a.a #101
1 Corinthians 3
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is
written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Puck Greenman
>the absence of God remains proved to be unproven.
Exactly the same is true of santa, the tooth faerie, the bogyman, etc, etc.
So what? Do you believe in any of those?
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling Like any opinion stated here
purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
ICQ 15096558
To e-mail me, first remove the idiot from my address.
bfe...@sbcglobal.net
No, I answered your question with a question for clarification. Until you
specified (insofar as you have), just what you meant by "God", it was
impossible to answer.
Now, disprove shall be pretty easy and straightforward.
Not that I expect you to accept it mind you, but..
Psalm 33, 6 & 7 -- incoherent and self-contradictory, thus, not descriptions
that
could apply to an existent. Thus, no such item.
8 -- not definitional. Rather a silly threat, however.
9 -- undemonstrated claim. Evidence for this, please.
10 -- not true, even on the writings of the Bible. What about those valley
people
he could not drive out due to their fearsome chariots of iron? Not
impressive.
So, rejected again as being descriptive or definitional of an existing
entity rather
than a fictive one.
11 -- refuted by the many changes of heart he recorded in the Bible.
12 -- either we've never had a 'favored nation' or this is a lie. You pick.
Peter 3, 5 -- insanity. No evidence for this. Rejected.
6 -- contradicted by the evidence. Rejected.
7 -- not definitional.
So, you have provided a bunch of blathering which is not definitional or
which
fails to meet minimal standards of coherency with other blatherings from the
same sourcebook.
There's nothing there to disprove, as you have not yet provided any reason
whatsoever to believe that:
a) you have described a deity in sufficient terms to meet my request
or
b) the character spoken of in the material you present could possibly exist
in any sense other than the fictional.
Bye now.
Bill
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I
realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole
one and asked him to forgive me."
- Emo Phillips
bfe...@sbcglobal.net
No, the plain fact is it is quite clear you have no idea what you are
talking about.
You cannot even define the term "God" such that we can unambiguously
and unequivocally know one when we find one.
Sheesh.
JDF
> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) writes:
>
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > always existed?
>
> inflationary theory: that the universe as we know it is embedded in an
> eternal context in which "matter" and "energy" are small and distinct
> phenomena.
You don't seem to be sure. Right now? So you believe that matter and
energy are eternal, but life had a beginning?
> Besides, why *do* people want everlasting life, anyway?
It doesn't matter whether you want it or not. We are discussing
whether it exists or not.
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>
> Nonsense. Just because it's too large to comprehend with the
> human mind doesn't mean that the basic principles of it are likewise
> incomprehensible.
Just because God is too large to comprehend with the human mind
doesn't mean that the basic principles of Him are likewise
incomprehensible.
>
> The difference between your beliefs and mine-- yours that some
> supercomplicated superconscious being from "nothing" created all matter,
> and mine that ordinary consciousness with its ordinary complexity
> emerged from simple matter, is that yours is utterly hopeless-- you have
> no control of your destiny, no hope of every understanding the world
> around, no way whatsoever to hold in your imagination the real
> possibilities of what the universe entails.
>
Yours emerged from self-existent, eternal "simple matter".
Yours has hope? You mean that you found a cure for death?
No hope of every? Give me a logical understanding so that I can
understand.
CAN ANYONE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF LIFE COMING FROM ANYTHING BUT LIFE?
> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> And there it is, boys and girls. In the end, the Christian is
> no different from the fanatical Muslim: "Worship MY god, bunky, or get
> your ass napalmed by my Cosmic Space Monkey."
The Muslim god says kill the infidels, my God says:
Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;(my job)
Romans 12
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto
wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
Lord.(His job)
bfe...@sbcglobal.net
Does it ever come from anything else?
Can you understand that anyone's inability to do so does not make a case
for you, nor does it strengthen the "case" you attempt to make?
I thought not.
Never choked on your food, have you?
Or dealt with the visual problems inherent in the bad design of the eye?
> #2 Life comes from Life, never matter or energy alone.(At least it's
> never been observed)
Then God is not alive, and your premise refutes itself.
> #3 The second Law of Thermodynamics states that all existing
> matter/energy is proceeding irreversibly toward ultimate equilibrium
> and cessation of all processes. ( evolution is going the opposite way)
Irrelevant, as you equivocate on context.
Local increases in disorder are perfectly possible under the 2nd Law.
Happens all the time. And not just in biology.
> #4 The Law of Casualty, that no effect can be greater that its cause,
which is not what any "law of causality" states, other than your fantasy
one.
> is basic in all scientific investigation and human experience. A
> universe comprising an array of intelligible and complex effects,
> including living systems and conscious personalities, is itself proof
> of an intelligent, complex, living, conscious Person as its Cause.
How so?
bfe...@sbcglobal.net
And we eagerly await your proof for the existence of some God or other.
Starting with a definition, a proper definition, of "God" would be a good
start.
You've not managed so far.
JDF
> JDF wrote in news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com:
>
> > 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> > clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> > eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> > 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> > neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> > their foolish heart was darkened.
> > 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> > 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> > like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> > creeping things.
> >
> > I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>
> theory of evolution.
moment that life started, and how life formed from matter and energy.
Enlighten me.
>
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> > always existed?
>
> Matter and energy don't consist of the big bang.
>
> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>
> Everlasting life has to violate conservation of energy somewhere... so
> no, I don't.
>
> > Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> > did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> Not known at this time, and makes no difference to my beliefs either way.
>
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>
> And you known this how, exactly? Could you point out your god in a police
> line-up?
He'd be the one that has the holes in his hands and feet, because He
became flesh to suffer for your sins, that you might go free if you
would only accept Him. Good reason to hate Him.
>
> > Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>
> I don't have a god.
Coincidently, you don't have any answers either. You trust in your own
intellect. This is your God
> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain.
>
> So what if it is? Why are you so insecure as to need certainties? As the
> saying goes: there are only two certainties in life - death, and
> taxation.
>
> You keep hold of the comfort blanket called religion, and let us who are
> unafraid of going forth into the unknown light a path for you.
>
Do you have any other reasons to release the blanket? Like some sort
of fact that proves that God is fake. Speaking of unafraid, are you
scared to buck the crowd or make waves? Are you with the minority?
Takes real guts!
> > Let's hope
> > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
Christopher A. Lee
>Walking on Glass <walking_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<ar8e0g$7jl$3...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>> JDF wrote in news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com:
>>
>> > CREATIONISM
>> > 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
>> > clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
>> > eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
>> > 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
>> > neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
>> > their foolish heart was darkened.
>> > 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
>> > 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
>> > like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
>> > creeping things.
>> >
>> > EVOLUTIONISM
>> > I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>>
>> There is no "faith" of evolution, just the *fact* of evolution, and the
>> theory of evolution.
>You might be missing a fact(maybe more). You forgot to explain the
>moment that life started, and how life formed from matter and energy.
>Enlighten me.
You ARE (not might be) missing several facts (maybe more), idiot -
like the fact that evolution deals with the variation and change in
life once it had started. Abiogenesis deals with life from non-life.
As others have told you several times already.
OpieTaylor
facts. He wouldn't know one if he woke up with one in his bed.
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:34:28 GMT, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net>
wrote:
JMF
> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>
> [totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
>
> >EVOLUTIONISM
>
> A paranoid and dishonest label invented by extreme fundamentaist
> Christians in a dishonest attempt to label everybody else except them,
> to pretend that reality is an -ism in competition with theirs.
>
> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
>
>
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >always existed?
>
>
> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
>
>
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> >did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> man".
>
> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>
> imagination - rather like your cartoon caricature of the big bang.
>
> >Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>
>
> > Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
>
> >If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
> etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
> medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
> every day.
>
> [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
> that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
>
> Idiot.
You need not sign your posts. We know who you are.
Psalms 14:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The
fool[Idiot] hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Mark 14:60-62 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked
Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness
against thee? But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the
high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son
of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man
sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of
heaven.
Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he[Jesus] cometh with clouds; and every eye
shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of
the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I[Jesus] am Alpha
and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and
which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Psalms 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded,
and they were created.
Isaiah 40:25-26 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal?
saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath
created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he
calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he
is strong in power; not one faileth.
JMF
> 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> their foolish heart was darkened.
> 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things.
>
> EVOLUTIONISM
> always existed?
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
> that the world through him might be saved.
> 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth
> not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of
> the only begotten Son of God.
Amen
That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together,
that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel
hath created it. Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your
strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth,
and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what
they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them;
or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come
hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do
evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are
of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that
chooseth you.
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched
them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of
it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them
that walk therein: I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will
I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the
former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before
they spring forth I tell you of them.
Isaiah 45:12 I[God] have made the earth, and created man upon it: I,
even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have
I commanded.
JMF
> "Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:jfnctucbn3kjmeeb4...@4ax.com...
>
>
> >
> > that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
>
> can't seem to get a handle on the fact that it *is* meaninless outside their
> religion. They seem to believe that all they have to do is assert, and we'll
> be instantly converted.
>
> > Idiot.
> >
Another signature
Psalms 14:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The
fool[Idiot] hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt,
they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Isaiah 45:18-23 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God
himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he
created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD;
and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place
of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I
the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped
of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their
graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring
them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this
from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the
LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour;
there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends
of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by
myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall
not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall
swear.
Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father.
Puck Greenman
>From: smo...@earthlink.net (JDF)
>Date: 18/11/02 01:25 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com>
>
>Walking on Glass <walking_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
>news:<ar8e0g$7jl$3...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>> JDF wrote in news:5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com:
>>
>>
>> There is no "faith" of evolution, just the *fact* of evolution, and the
>> theory of evolution.
>You might be missing a fact(maybe more). You forgot to explain the
>moment that life started, and how life formed from matter and energy.
>Enlighten me.
What you ask about has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is about what
happened
*after* life appeared.
Now if you are genuinely looking for answers, which I doubt, you should address
your questions to talk.origins, but if you are only seeking a venue to air your
ignorance,
and give us all a good laugh, then stay here.
snip
>> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>>
>> And you known this how, exactly? Could you point out your god in a police
>> line-up?
>He'd be the one that has the holes in his hands and feet, because He
>became flesh to suffer for your sins, that you might go free if you
>would only accept Him. Good reason to hate Him.
Hate him? If I believed in him, I would be more inclined to feel sorry for
the
poor stupid fuck.
>
>>
>> > Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>>
>> I don't have a god.
>Coincidently, you don't have any answers either.
Answers to what?
You trust in your own intellect. This is your God.
Not by any definition of a god, that I have ever read, and certainly not by any
definition in the bible; Unless you count the loonatic, Saul/Paul.
>
>> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain.
Uncertanty is what makes life interesting.
>>
>> So what if it is? Why are you so insecure as to need certainties? As the
>> saying goes: there are only two certainties in life - death, and
>> taxation.
>>
>> You keep hold of the comfort blanket called religion, and let us who are
>> unafraid of going forth into the unknown light a path for you.
>>
>Do you have any other reasons to release the blanket?
Yes, we saw it for what it is, and no longer needed it.
> Like some sort of fact that proves that God is fake.
No, that is just a theist straw man.
We can no more show your god to be a fake, than you can show it to be real.
>Speaking of unafraid, are you scared to buck the crowd or make waves?
Not in the least.
> Are you with the minority?
It depends on the subject. If you are talking about belief in your god, then,
"No", we
are with the majority.
>Takes real guts!
What does?
OpieTaylor
Can you contribute something in your own words. Can you wiggle your ears? Can
you add anything relevant to this thread? Shew us something.
On 17 Nov 2002 18:31:01 -0800, overse...@yahoo.com (JMF) wrote:
<snip>
JMF
> In alt.atheism on 16 Nov 2002 23:47:37 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net
> (JDF) let us all know that:
> >> On 16 Nov 2002 07:00:15 -0800, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
> >>
> >> [totally irrelevant bible quotes snipped]
>
> No. Irrelevant things have to go.
>
>
> [snip]
>
> >> > Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
> >>
> >have no hope.
>
> Non sequitur.
>
> > Everything you do in your life will be pointless, only
> >to die with you.
>
> Really? So the Taj Mahal no longer exists? The Pyramids no longer
> exist? Their builders died, so those things must no longer exist,
> according to you.
>
> Idiot.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
> >> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
> >>
> >> understood phenomenon wityhout which spinoffs like genetics, biotech
> >> etc wouldn't even exist. And neither would their applications in
> >> medicine and agriculture which hypocrites like you take for granted
> >> every day.
> >and yet you laugh at creationist when they believe that God is proved
> >by the existence of these things.
>
> Yep.
>
> >Who is the hypocrite?
>
> People like you.
>
>
> Don
> ---
> aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
> Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
>
> "No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
> Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Isaiah 48:3-8 I[God Almighty] have declared the former things from
the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them;
I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Because I knew that thou
art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; I
have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to
pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done
them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have
shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou
didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning;
even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest
say, Behold, I knew them. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest
not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew
that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a
transgressor from the womb.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by
profaning the covenant of our fathers?
JMF
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:47:37 +0000, smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) in <5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com> proclaimed to the world...
>
> > Hope your right.
> > If you don't have any arguments then just call me names.
>
> One hundred and fifty years of evidence and research but you folk insist
> nobody has any "arguments."
>
> Look, YOU being ignorant is not OUR responsibility okay?
> --
> Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
> ________________________________________________________________
> "The problem with defending the purity of the English language
> is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't
> just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
> languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
> pockets for new vocabulary."
> [James D. Nicoll]
Colossians 1:15-17 Who[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that
are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all
things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour
and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they
are and were created.
Revelation 10:5-6 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and
upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that
liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that
therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the
sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no
longer:
JMF
> smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote:
>
> >20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> >clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> >eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> >21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> >neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> >their foolish heart was darkened.
> >22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> >23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> >like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> >creeping things.
> >
> >EVOLUTIONISM
> >I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> >always existed?
>
>
> >Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy ball was infinitely big, or
> >did you finally find the end of the universe?
>
>
> >
> >the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>
> two statements that have nothing to do at all with evolution, then wrap
> it up with a bit of posthumous racketeering.
>
> I'm convinced.
>
> John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
> jo...@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
Job 38:1-18 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and
said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and
answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the
earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the
measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon
it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the
corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all
the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors,
when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made
the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for
it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And
said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy
proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy
days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take
hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of
it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall
be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou
walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened
unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast
thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it
all.
Don Kresch
(JMF) let us all know that:
>"John Baker" <j...@spamfree.net> wrote in message news:<QuyB9.12808$tY3.4...@twister.neo.rr.com>...
>> "Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> news:jfnctucbn3kjmeeb4...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> >
>> > [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
>> > that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
>>
>> That's just it. Most of these morons apparently *don't* know that. They just
>> can't seem to get a handle on the fact that it *is* meaninless outside their
>> religion. They seem to believe that all they have to do is assert, and we'll
>> be instantly converted.
>>
>> > Idiot.
>> >
>
>Another signature
>
>Psalms 14:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The
>fool[Idiot] hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt,
>they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
MINI-FAQ: Psalms 14:1
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt,
they
have done abominable works, there is none that does good."" (Psalms
14:1)
AD HOMINEM FALLACY: An argument is discounted based on attacking the
character of the person making the argument. ("He is wrong when he
says there is no God, because he is a fool.")
STRAWMAN FALLACY: Arguing against a postion by creating a different,
weaker, or irrelevant position and refuting that position instead of
the original. ("There is no God" misrepresents "There isn't sufficient
evidence that God exists.")
CIRCULAR REASONING: The truth of the conclusion is assumed in order
to justify the premises. ("The fool says there is no God, because
anyone who says there is no God is a fool.")
BEGGING THE QUESTION: The argument creates a secondary proposition
that is related to the primary proposition, which requires a similar
argument that is missing. (The existence of God is assumed, while
addressing propositions of whether God exists.)
FALLACY OF INCONSISTENCY: The argument is inconsistent with other
arguments within the same context. (In the Christian context, Jesus
commands against the invective in Psalms 14:1, warning that "whoever
says 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire" in Matthew
5:22.)
SPECIAL PLEADING: The inappropriate attribution of emotive functions
to objects that do not have that capability. (Hearts are not capable
of "knowing" or of feeling emotions.)
REDUNDANCY: Psalm 53 is identical to Psalm 14.
QUESTIONABLE PREMISE: It is obviously not the case that all atheists
do nothing but bad deeds. This premise is invalidated by a single
example of an atheist doing a single charitable act.
Wayne Delia, red...@ibm.net, Atheist #61, MSTie #37634
Don Kresch
(JMF) let us all know that:
Hmmm...no response.
JMF
> > could also be used to prove God.
> > environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
> >
>
> Start by telling me what you mean by God. Give me an operational
> definition,
> give me a definitive list of characteristics such that we may conclusively
> identify, for any given candidate, whether that candidate is God or not.
> Betcha can't.
>
> Bill
> a crying need for the Natural kind? - Michael Flynn
Job 38:1-3 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up
now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou
me. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where
is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound
thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of
thy days is great? Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow?
or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved
against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? By
what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the
earth? Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters,
or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the
earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To
satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the
tender herb to spring forth? Hath the rain a father? or who hath
begotten the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice? and the
hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? The waters are hid as
with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. Canst thou bind the
sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou
bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with
his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the
dominion thereof in the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the
clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send
lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? Who
hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding
to the heart? Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the
bottles of heaven, When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods
cleave fast together? Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill
the appetite of the young lions, When they couch in their dens, and
abide in the covert to lie in wait? Who provideth for the raven his
food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know
that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
JMF
> > he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> > could also be used to prove God.
> > Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> > environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
> >
> > Convince me.
>
> disbelieve in Him. Nobody is morally obligated to believe unproved
> things.
>
> --Billy
Job 38:1-3 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up
now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou
me. Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and
feathers unto the ostrich? Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and
warmeth them in dust, And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or
that the wild beast may break them. She is hardened against her young
ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without
fear; Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he
imparted to her understanding. What time she lifteth up herself on
high, she scorneth the horse and his rider. Hast thou given the horse
strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder? Canst thou make him
afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible. He
paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to
meet the armed men. He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted;
neither turneth he back from the sword. The quiver rattleth against
him, the glittering spear and the shield. He swalloweth the ground
with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of
the trumpet. He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the
battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting. Doth
the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and
the strong place. From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes
behold afar off. Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the
slain are, there is she.
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the
LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is
none else.
Mark K. Bilbo
> Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched
> them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of
> it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them
> that walk therein:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. ALL the "gods" say that...
Mark K. Bilbo
> Walking on Glass, neither will you be able to see the truth as long as
> you adhere to lies of men.
Ignoring, of course, that the "bible" was written by men...
John Baker
"JMF" <overse...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6b553612.02111...@posting.google.com...
> "John Baker" <j...@spamfree.net> wrote in message
news:<QuyB9.12808$tY3.4...@twister.neo.rr.com>...
> > "Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> > news:jfnctucbn3kjmeeb4...@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > [more in-everybody's-face stupidity and rudeness deleted (bible quotes
> > > that the asshole knows are meaningless outside his religion)]
> >
> > That's just it. Most of these morons apparently *don't* know that. They
just
> > can't seem to get a handle on the fact that it *is* meaninless outside
their
> > religion. They seem to believe that all they have to do is assert, and
we'll
> > be instantly converted.
> >
> > > Idiot.
> > >
>
> Another signature
>
> Psalms 14:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The
Seems you kind of missed the point, didn't you, Sunshine? I'll say this
slowly so you can follow me, OK? Now pay attention....despite what
Christians vehemently assert, this is not Divine Truth or any other kind.
This is only what *you* believe. This is *your* religion, *your* dogma. It
is completely irrelevant and utterly meaningless to anyone, atheist or not,
who does not subscribe to your particular brand of god belief. Now what part
of that don't you understand?
--
Religion is sort of like wearing lifts in your shoes.
If it makes you feel better, fine. I don't have a
problem with that. Just don't ask me to wear your
shoes.
~ George Carlin ~
aa# 1898
BAAWA Keeper of the Holy Hand Grenade
Mark K. Bilbo
I've read all that crap and used to believe in it too. You have a point?
It's still just myth okay?
Methuselah
...
Elf M. Sternberg
> You don't seem to be sure. Right now? So you believe that matter and
> energy are eternal, but life had a beginning?
I think the question is meaningless. We don't have a science
for explaining what the universe was like before it was about a
centimeter in size. Before we can even begin to address the question of
context we need to understand the unification of relativity and quantum
mechanics-- something that's several years away, if ever.
> Just because God is too large to comprehend with the human mind
> doesn't mean that the basic principles of Him are likewise
> incomprehensible.
It be nice if they were coherent.
> CAN ANYONE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF LIFE COMING FROM ANYTHING BUT LIFE?
Sure.
You.
You're made of entirely dead particles: carbon, nitrogen,
hydrogen, oxygen.
> The Muslim god says kill the infidels, my God says:
John 3:16: "Him that believeth not is condemned."
Sorry, it's bloody tribalism, fit for primitive savages. I had
hopes that human beings had surpassed that kind of sick nonsense by now.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg will be unavailable during November.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/
John Hattan
>Job 38:1-18 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and
>said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
>Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and
>answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the
>earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the
>measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon
>it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the
>corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all
>the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors,
>when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made
>the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for
>it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And
>said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy
>proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy
>days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take
>hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of
>it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
>And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall
>be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou
>walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened
>unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast
>thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it
>all.
Now I'm more convinced.
Mark K. Bilbo
> Amen
So you don't even know what's going on here eh?
Jeremy Martin
Good. I was hoping that you got the memo that said throwing Bible
verses around was a sure way to win converts.
--
Jeremy
"MENTAL GIANT kollegge graduate with a PHD in STUPID!"
"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time."
- Robin Williams
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
> Obviously, you believe that the matter and energy always existed and
>life had a beginning. Do you observe life coming from matter and
>energy today?
No more than you observe your god creating the universe today.
>Ok, I'll reword it. Does anyone have any idea how much matter and
>energy is in the universe.
Pretty much. It's that last percent or two that's critical, though.
> If you do, how did you calculate it without knowing the limits of the universe.
The universe is bounded and we know the bounds.
> If you have not found the limit's
>of the universe(which I believe is permeated with matter and energy),
>is it safe to assume that matter and energy is infinite.
The universe is infinite but bounded. That limits the amount of both
matter and energy.
>> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>> No, not at all. There's evidence for what I believe. There's no evidence for
>> God.
>Actually, your evidence fits better with my belief, if your evidence
>is from life and its workings.
So the objective evidence (not your opinions) of your god is?
>> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain. Let's hope
>> > the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
>> I'd think again about that one. There's a fairly obvious logic problem with
>> what you just said.
>Thinking about that one again. I assume it was the trust part. When I
>use the "evidence" of evolution to prove the existence of God, the
>word evidence becomes "faith".
Since the fact that you aren't a clone of your parent (evolution) has
nothing to do with any god, it can't be used as proof of any god.
> All of that evidence that you claim for
>evolution does not deny God, but is evidence for Him.
Nope - evidence of evolution - like the fact that you're not a clone
of your parent - isn't objective evidence of your god. (That it's
your opinion that evolution means that your god exists hardly matters.
Opinion is only evidence that the opinion has been stated - not that
the opinion is correct.)
--
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Zymurgist # 2
Christopher A. Lee
And here we have yet another retard who vomits bible verses in
everybody else's face as though they meant anything. And hasn't enough
intelligence to realise the sentiments are his because he posted them,
not the anonymous authors of his mythology..
Chris Nelson
news:<6bd3c70a.02111...@posting.google.com>...
> > smo...@earthlink.net (JDF) wrote in message
news:<5e57d85a.02111...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > You may not be able to prove God exists, but you sure can't prove that
> > > he doesn't. In fact, all of the "evidence" used to "prove" evolution
> > > could also be used to prove God.
> > > Don't you think God could have made us to adapt to our local
> > > environment? How can you prove that there is no God?
> > >
> > > Convince me.
> >
> > You're missing the point. We don't have to disprove your God to
> > disbelieve in Him. Nobody is morally obligated to believe unproved
> > things.
> >
> > --Billy
>
> the absence of God remains proved to be unproven.
Fallacy: shifting of the burden of proof.
Since there is no evidence or reasoning that supports the existence of a
god, it is safe to live life as if there is no god.
--
Chris
--
Chris
Mark K. Bilbo
> G. Schofield wrote in
> news:3e7e52fd.02111...@posting.google.com:
>
>> GTS here! Hello there Walking on Glass!
>
> Hi.
>
>> John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him Verily, verily, I say unto
>> thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
>
> IOW you must believe in Christianity without doubt in order for
> Christianity to appear true. If I choose to believe that oranges are
> blue, does that make them so?
>
> Just because the Bible says something does not make it so.
>
>> Walking on Glass, neither will you be able to see the truth as long as
>> you adhere to lies of men.
>
> What lies would these be?
Um... human claims like "the bible is god's word?"
Mark K. Bilbo
> You need not sign your posts. We know who you are.
Because the name is put there by the newsreader?
Mark K. Bilbo
> You might be missing a fact(maybe more). You forgot to explain the
> moment that life started, and how life formed from matter and energy.
> Enlighten me.
Irrelevant to the subject at hand. That's abiogenisis. Not evolution.
Mark K. Bilbo
> Don Kresch <ROT13....@npebarg.arg.getridof.com> wrote in message
<snipping at risk of scrambling attributions>
>> Evolution is describing the diversity of life on the Earth. It
>> has nothing to do with how the universe came to be or functions.
>
> So you have no answers in this department?
Look, stupid boy, if you want to attack evolution and not come off
sounding like an idiot, you might want to learn something ABOUT the
actual theory. And stop wandering off to other sciences as if that has
something to do with the subject to hand.
The ToE is about speciation. *NOT* about the origin of life. And it has
NEVER been about the origin of life. Even the title of Darwin's book is
_The Origion of Species_.
You're only making yourself look like a fool by your willful ignorance...
Mark K. Bilbo
> (John Hattan <jo...@thecodezone.com>):
>
>>overse...@yahoo.com (JMF) wrote:
<snip bizarre spewing of bible verses>
>>Now I'm more convinced.
>
> Good. I was hoping that you got the memo that said throwing Bible verses
> around was a sure way to win converts.
But what about belching them in massive non-sequiturs?
Mark K. Bilbo
> Operational definition and the list of characteristics of God are found
> in the Bible.
And yet thousands of different christian groups disagree on what those
"definitions" actually *mean.
So why should anybody take you people seriously? You can't agree on
*anything.
Jeremy Martin
>On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:17:30 +0000, Jeremy Martin <mrbu...@pattonisgod.com> in <butgtucg2egvr9kaa...@4ax.com> proclaimed to the world...
>
>> (John Hattan <jo...@thecodezone.com>):
>>
>>>overse...@yahoo.com (JMF) wrote:
>
><snip bizarre spewing of bible verses>
>
>>>Now I'm more convinced.
>>
>> Good. I was hoping that you got the memo that said throwing Bible verses
>> around was a sure way to win converts.
>
>But what about belching them in massive non-sequiturs?
I shall beat you about the brow with my Biblical verses, sire! En
guarde!
--
Jeremy
"MENTAL GIANT kollegge graduate with a PHD in STUPID!"
"If by fine you mean "Oh my, what a beautiful woman, except for the moustache", then I guess it works..."
- anotherone, SA Forums
Walking on Glass
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:55:09 +0000, Walking on Glass
> <walking_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> in
> <ar9a8t$brg$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> proclaimed to the world...
>
>> G. Schofield wrote in
>> news:3e7e52fd.02111...@posting.google.com:
>>
>>> GTS here! Hello there Walking on Glass!
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>>> John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him Verily, verily, I say
>>> unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of
>>> God."
>>
>> IOW you must believe in Christianity without doubt in order for
>> Christianity to appear true. If I choose to believe that oranges are
>> blue, does that make them so?
>>
>> Just because the Bible says something does not make it so.
>>
>>> Walking on Glass, neither will you be able to see the truth as long
>>> as you adhere to lies of men.
>>
>> What lies would these be?
>
> Um... human claims like "the bible is god's word?"
Yeah, that must be the one!
--
Walking on Glass (remove NOSPAM to email me)
AA #2053 Zymurgist #12
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or
you can inoculate...Try science"
Carl Sagan - "The Demon-Haunted World"
Dirk Murcray
> 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
> clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
> eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
> neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
> their foolish heart was darkened.
> 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
> 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
> like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
> creeping things.
>
> EVOLUTIONISM
> I'll need some help establishing the faith of evolution.
> Do you BELIEVE that the matter and energy consisting of the big bang
> always existed?
> Then you believe in everlasting life. Hey so do I.
> did you finally find the end of the universe?
> Sounds like your god is kind of like mine only without the brains.
>
> the Bible is a joke or you aren't going to like the future.
The fictional nature of the Bible aside, the future is going to be
precisely like the past: Chaotic and entirely indifferent to the
affairs of humans.
Walking on Glass
> Walking on Glass <walking_...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:<ar8e0g$7jl$3...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>>
...
>> There is no "faith" of evolution, just the *fact* of evolution, and
>> the theory of evolution.
> You might be missing a fact(maybe more). You forgot to explain the
> moment that life started, and how life formed from matter and energy.
> Enlighten me.
No fact missing. The study of the origins of life is abiogenesis, not
evolution. Evolution deals with changes in already existing life.
...
>> > Can't comprehend the size of it? My God is the same way.
>>
>> And you known this how, exactly? Could you point out your god in a
>> police line-up?
> He'd be the one that has the holes in his hands and feet, because He
> became flesh to suffer for your sins, that you might go free if you
> would only accept Him. Good reason to hate Him.
Hate? I see no evidence whatsoever for the existence of any god. How can
I hate that which does not appear to exist?
>> > Was all power wrapped up in that big ball of a god of yours?
>>
>> I don't have a god.
> Coincidently, you don't have any answers either.
I know that if a child has polio it should be inoculated to cure it. It
has a far better success rate than prayer.
> You trust in your own
> intellect. This is your God
That's a strange way to define god, effectively: "I think, therefore I'm
God".
However, by using such a definition, you are defining atheism out of
existence. I do not consider my intellect to be 'God'.
>> > If you trust in evolution, then the future is uncertain.
>>
>> So what if it is? Why are you so insecure as to need certainties? As
>> the saying goes: there are only two certainties in life - death, and
>> taxation.
>>
>> You keep hold of the comfort blanket called religion, and let us who
>> are unafraid of going forth into the unknown light a path for you.
>>
> Do you have any other reasons to release the blanket?
For me, lack of evidence for gods => lack of belief in gods.
> Like some sort
> of fact that proves that God is fake.
Shifting the burden of proof. You are claiming that something called
'God' exists, so it's up to you to define what you mean by that and
present your evidence that God exists as you have defined the concept.
> Speaking of unafraid, are you
> scared to buck the crowd or make waves? Are you with the minority?
> Takes real guts!
I make my own decisions. I'm not afraid to listen to people with
different viewpoints and change mine if someone can convince me that they
have a valid point. And atheism is a minority position in many countries.
Do you have a point?