Yes Virginia, Hitler And The Nazis Were Atheists
Sound of Trumpet
Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
by daniel duffy
at Sun 4 Apr 6:31am
A.N. Wilson in "God's Funeral" comes very close to laying the horrors
of the 20th century at the feet of the atheistic philosophers of the
19th century. He sites two main philosophical branches: the
Carlyle/Nietzsche branch in which God is replaced with the hero or
superman, and the Hegel/Marx branch in which heaven is replaced with a
workers utopia. The first gave us the atrocities of the far right, the
other the atrocities of the far left.
The Nazis, Hitler especially, despised Christianity as a belief fit
only for weaklings, not for the coming Superman. With the possible
exception of Himmler and his bizarre paganism, the Nazi ruling circle
was composed of atheists. Though he called himself a Christian in Mein
Kampf and in several speeches, it is well to remember that these were
pronouncements for public consumption and were made by a consummate
liar/politician. For his real views on the subject see his Table Talk,
surreptitiously recorded by Martin Borman and never intended for the
public. These statements represent his real views (more on this below).
Hitler had every intention of destroying the Christian faith and
replacing it with Nazism when the time was ripe. His accommodations
with the Roman Catholic Church and German Protestant churches were
purely tactical. For a more in depth look at this issue see the OSS
post war report on Nazism and the churches at www.lawandreligion.com
run by Rutgers University. For a shorter version, see pages 477-478 of
Weinberg's "A World at Arms" (IMHO the best single volume history of
the war). Religious faith was the common enemy of atheistic regimes of
both the far right and the far left.
An historical article from Christianity Today sums up the conclusions
of the OSS report quite nicely:
Donovan's Nuremberg report undermines the assertion, made by Feldman
and so many others, that because several key Nazis had ties (however
tenuous) to a church, and because the Nazis advanced insidious
policies, then those insidious policies must be inherently Christian.
To what extent elements of popular Christian ideology fed Hitler's
anti-Semitism is a separate and valid question, but the "if A then B"
connection fails because insidious anti-Christian policies do not fit
the syllogism above. A plan to eradicate Christianity can hardly be
construed as Christian, and persons supporting such a plan can hardly
be considered believers of any standing.
Perhaps we can now put that "Nazis were Christians" canard into the
same waste heap as holocaust denial. Now, as for Hitler's Table Talk:
Outside of the officially atheist Soviet Union, what politician in the
1930s (or even today, at least here in America) would publicly (or even
privately)admit to being an atheist? Hitler was a skilled politician
and a consummate liar (the two often go together). Mein Kampf was for
public consumption and expressed only those views most likely to get
him elected. To really understand what such a man believes, it is
necessary to view those words that were not intended for public
consumption, as historian Hugh Trevor-Roper makes clear:
We must go direct to Hitler's personal utterances: not indeed to his
letters and speeches-- these, though valuable, are too public, too
formalised for such purposes-- but to his private conversations, his
Table-Talk. Table-Talk, like notebooks, reveal the mind of a man far
more completely, more intimately, than any formal utterance.
In Table Talk the following statements on Christianity by Hitler will
be found:
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of
Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are
inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was
introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie
of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in
reality it seeks only to enslave them.
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against
nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the
systematic cultivation of the human failure.
Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things
that can't, or can't yet, be explained-that is to say, of the unknown.
If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with
the Party's programme. Time will go by until the moment when science
can answer all the questions.
Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this
respect. And that's why one day its structure will collapse. Science
has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity
clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline.
A movement like ours mustn't let itself be drawn into metaphysical
digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science. It's not the
Party's function to be a counterfeit for religion.
If in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives
at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean
that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it's always striving,
according to the momentary state of knowledge to deduce what is true.
When it makes a mistake, it does 10 in good faith. It's Christianity
that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself.
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that
it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
Pure Christianity-the Christianity of the catacombs-is concerned with
translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to
the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole- hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics.
I adopted a definite attitude on the 21st March 1933 when I refused to
take part in the religious services, organised at Potsdam by the two
Churches, for the inauguration of the new Reichstag.
Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It
will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret
will have been that I couldn't, like whoever the prophet was, behold
the promised land from afar.
The fact that I remain silent in public over Church affairs is not in
the least misunderstood by the sly foxes of the Catholic Church, and I
am quite sure that a man like the Bishop von Galen knows full well that
after the war I shall extract retribution to the last farthing. And, if
he does not succeed in getting himself transferred in the meanwhile to
the Collegium Germanium in Rome, he may rest assured that in the
balancing of our accounts, no "T" will remain uncrossed, no "I"
undotted!
Christianity is an invention of sick brains.
Geoff
news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
Wrong again.
GoDrex
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote in message
news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>
DanielSan
Yes. I doubt that any atheist would do this:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/prayingHitler.jpg
--
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* "In every country and in every age, the priest *
* has been hostile to liberty. He is always in *
* alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in *
* return for protection to his own." *
* --Jefferson (in a letter to H. Spafford, 1814) *
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2307 Dead
wrote:
Hitler regarded himself as a devout Catholic, and Germany was about
38% Protestant and Catholic respectively in the mid 30s.
>
--
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Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
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Fucked up person
commies, the Church and the Salvation Army is promoting, like helping
the poor and weak and stuff, so nazism was basically radically
atheistic far right movement. But in the nazi regime, Hitler was God
and nazism was religion itself. It needed no other gods, because Hitler
acted like he was god and people believed in him.
DanielSan
Actually, Hitler was Christian and frequently prayed to God.
quibbler
soundof...@mail2world.com says...
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
Oh the irony that they would choose a title which originally read, "Yes
Virginia There is a Santa Claus". It was, of course, a defense of the
lie of Santa, just as this article is a defense of the lie that Catholic
Hitler and his fanatic "Gott Mitt Uns" Nazis were somehow "atheists".
BTW, it's amazing how reich-wingers take Hitler at face value when they
laughably accuse him of "socialism" (despite his staunch anti-communism
and dismiss his overt support for christianity.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
jwk
Just keep trying to rewrite history. I know it works on your own kind.
Still you should realize that we atheists know better. We can read,
you see, and are not this easily fooled.
jwk
Jim07D6
>A plan to eradicate Christianity can hardly be
>construed as Christian, and persons supporting such a plan can hardly
>be considered believers of any standing.
It isn't the religious nature of Christianity that threatened the Nazi
agenda, it was that Christianity was in effect a competing government,
no less than was the French or Polish government -- competing for the
hearts and minds of the people the Nazis wanted to govern. Organized
religions with international reach cannot help but impose at least
some hierarchical control on the lives of their adherents. It is
logical to expect any government that wants to greatly extend its
control over existing and new subjects, and carry out radical
policies, to seek to eliminate competition.
Undoubtedly an Nazi effort to completely eliminate religious influence
would have been unsuccessful, it is more likely that they would have
imposed state control of religion, and Christianity would have
survived, with its European organizations brought under state control.
For example, the Pope would be German (at least at first), a highly
placed member of the Nazi party, and a highly placed member of the
Reich -- a Minister of Religion, for example, with a Protestant
counterpart, at first. Under the Reich, the Protestant - Catholic
schism would gradually be undone, so that there would not be competing
religions. This would have interesting ramifications for the rest of
the world's Catholics. It is likely that another Papal structure would
be organized, somewhere outside the Reich. The next World War would
reflect this new schism.
--- Jim07D6
raven1
<soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote:
>Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
Which, unfortunately, conflicts with both their own words, and the
claims of the cranks who insist that they were neo-Pagans.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
Jim07D6
Christianity has been subverted in all sorts of ways and is quite
malleable. Their real issue was that religion *as it was organized*was
a competing extra-national government, in many ways. They would not
have been successful in eliminating Christianity and would instead
have incorporated Christianity under a state ministry of religion and
then over time, consolidated the various Christian denominations. The
Catholic Church would be the main beneficiary. Religion would be
their friend. The Pope would become the minister of religion and
would be German. But as a powerful tool for social control, they
wouldn't eliminate Christianity, they would use it. This would mess up
international Catholicism outside the Reich, but that would just have
to be dealt with.
--- Jim07D6
quibbler
soundof...@mail2world.com says...
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
> In Table Talk
"Hitler's Table Talk" has been debunked
http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
wbarwell
Lets see them quotes...
History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians
who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian
deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church
leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of
Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult
worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on
those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the
Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler
expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers.
Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to
history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.
Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of
producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I
haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by
writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my
personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian
will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the
offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and
my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is
important information to take into consideration for I am privy to
some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American
media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning
Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it
into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the
Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3)
Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into
Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain
for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due
to his Christianity.
Hitler’s involvement with the Church:
a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On
his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was
carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most
ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his
love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to
intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church
festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the
village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most
desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church.
Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in
attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.
f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the
pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn
they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler
wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an
excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the
new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state
by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and
unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is
hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to
the Nazi Party
g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society
and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and
preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic
teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with
Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken
On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The
celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a
tradition.
Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest
congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the
dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of
Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to
know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend
you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII,
by John Cornwell)
h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting
doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a
death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in
schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised
that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist
State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be
its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in
their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines
(Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views
and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June
1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action
against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be
Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf
Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the
Catholic Church to National Socialism
How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria
and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the
belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The
Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred
did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of
Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for
hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself,
held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book,
“On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish
hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a
great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and
beliefs.
Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the
country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles
treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial
reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self
sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that
raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world
recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the
Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the
leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him
in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates
their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations,
mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in
a national Christianity.
How the Nazi Regime converted the people:
a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term)
adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a
constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly
demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a
“positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious
denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and
do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German
race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does
not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular
confession...”
b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda
to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all
people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man
above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to
the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from
present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic
principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by
abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an
equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of
their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that
Christianity was taught.
d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in
textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until
1961.
e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to
forcibly convert all its military.
f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious
symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on
military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I
believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you
who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.
g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy
water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on
a maneuver.
h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would
act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was
suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but
CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.
Quotes from Hitler:
Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his
faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an
embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their
faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following
words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and
reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:
“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for
worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon
racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the
care and leadership of a people defined by a common
blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk
with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal
into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but
something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with
us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but
clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But
since we set as the central point of this perception and of this
profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the
future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a
divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of
a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our
worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that
reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the
unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as
they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6
Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in
pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand
against cults.]
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith.
We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement,
and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have
stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
[This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as
favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people
worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy.
The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not
accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be
noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their
non-belief in Christ.]
Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack
the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at
last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for
the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand
years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever
before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood
upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be
cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting
rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I
have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12
April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April
1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press,
1942)
"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own
altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the
heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its
apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute
presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here
that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which
Christianity was founded.)
"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil
assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The
idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs
based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers
after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)
"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks
in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus
stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common
in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race
and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)
“The best characterization is provided by the product of this
religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world,
and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature
two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new
doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward
the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive
from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then
as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business
existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our
present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish
votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with
atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf
Hitler (Mein Kampf)
"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his
expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where
humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to
the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the
will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I
am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement]
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf
Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the
idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He
states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief
not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of
their Aryan nationality.)
“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting
that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong
Christian Spirituality.)
Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:
"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the
party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church
because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered
his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members
of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he
said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he
remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by
Albert Speer page 95-96)
wbarwell
> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> said:
>
>>A plan to eradicate Christianity can hardly be
>>construed as Christian, and persons supporting such a plan can hardly
>>be considered believers of any standing.
>
> It isn't the religious nature of Christianity that threatened the Nazi
> agenda,
There was no plan to eliminate christianity or christians.
The Nazis did harass those who opposed their plans.
No matter religion or lack of it.
Don't let him peddle lies.
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
Fucked up person
Fucked up person
doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ. Nazis did some ugly
things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
them.. i mean, Stalin was an atheist. He did too some nasty shit. It
hasn't do with religion that much. Men can kill without bible or god.
Besides, Hitler hated jews, and christianity is judeo-chistian
religion, so it doesn't make sense why he killed jews if they were gods
people. Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were
religious? And nazis were murderes, criminals. How christian is that?
Fucked up person
Jim07D6
>Jim07D6 wrote:
>
>> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> said:
>>
>>>A plan to eradicate Christianity can hardly be
>>>construed as Christian, and persons supporting such a plan can hardly
>>>be considered believers of any standing.
>>
>> It isn't the religious nature of Christianity that threatened the Nazi
>> agenda,
>
>There was no plan to eliminate christianity or christians.
I believe that Hitler was a Christian. But I believe the Reich would
have initiated a program to reform Christianity, the organization , --
meaning the Aryanization of Christianity. I believe the Papacy would
have taken an Aryan turn, would have been in some sense merged with
the state and its aims, at least for propaganda purposes, and there
would have been some reconciliation with German (therefore, approved)
protestantism. And Jews, avowed anti-Christian atheists (probably
labeled as communists) Muslims, etc. would be eliminated or forced to
flee the Reich. I can see how *some* Christians could regard this as
an attack on Christianity, the religion.
Quoting:
"But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that
Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief
system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter,
organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many
Christians do today)."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
>
>The Nazis did harass those who opposed their plans.
>No matter religion or lack of it.
I don't think they would harass any individual Christians who
supported them; just for being Christian. That's where SOT lies.
>
>Don't let him peddle lies.
I really can't stop that. But I think it is more effective to present
a reasonable explanation of what the Nazis would have done WRT
Christianity if they had won WWII. Otherwise, there is an exploitable
lingering confusion in the interpretation of the history of the time.
Unfortunately, reasonable explanations are not very popular during
culture wars.
--- Jim07D6
John Baker
<soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote:
>http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
>Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
No, they most definitely were not. But fundamentalist Christians most
assuredly *are* morons.
Jim07D6
<...>
>Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were religious?
And so important to others, to prove nazis and Hitler were atheists?
--- Jim07D6
John Cartmell
You're displaying many of the misunderstandings typical of some speaking from
a tolerant christian community - even though you need not be christian
yourself. You don't seem to have encountered Christian groups villifying Jews
as Christ-killers and assume that it's not christian to murder. It may not be
christian (as in christian = good person) but it certainly has been Christian
- and you need to do much reading on the darker side of that religion through
the ages.
--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
>If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
The holocaust was the culmination of nearly two millennia of
Christian, church encouraged anti-Semitism. I can't imagine anybody
but a Christian treating Jews as "Christ-killers". Catholic and
Protestant church fathers wrote ordering appalling treatment of Jews.
The Nazis carried out what Martin Luther ordered. But Catholic church
fathers were no better. The early and medieval church-ordered
anti-Semitism had become part of German (and other countries')
culture.
quibbler
t...@jippii.fi says...
> If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
> doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ.
Did I say otherwise?
> Nazis did some ugly
> things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
> them.
Hitler was raised a catholic. Pope Pius XII gave strong support to
Hitler and Mussolini before and during WWII. Now, of course, like pope
Ratbastard, they try to claim that they had no choice but to overtly
collaborate with Nazis and Italian fascists.
>. i mean, Stalin was an atheist.
Irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, except in so far as
Hitler was a mortal enemy of both Stalin and communism. The question is
whether hitler was an atheist. He certainly wasn't overtly and
officially an atheist. We can all agree on that. This is curious,
because he essentially had absolute power in Germany, so why would he
hide it if he was a hardcore atheist?
> He did too some nasty shit. It
> hasn't do with religion that much.
Agreed. In fact, the fact that Stalin was an atheist had little to do
with his genocide. That's what dictators often do to stay in power.
They purge anyone even remotely suspected of disloyalty. Saddam Hussein
is a muslim, at least overtly, but I don't blame Islam for his genocide.
Of course, I'm sure that many theists would like to claim that Hussein
too is secretly an atheist, despite all his praying, reading of the
Koran, etc, etc.
> Men can kill without bible or god.
Absolutely.
> Besides, Hitler hated jews, and christianity is judeo-chistian
But he didn't see it that way. He believed that Jesus was an aryan.
Yeah, it sounds silly, but he thought that modern jews were "khazars" who
just pretended to be "the chosen people", when really it was the aryans.
It's kind of like the conspiracists who claim Jesus was black. Some
people will believe anything.
> religion, so it doesn't make sense why he killed jews if they were gods
> people.
As I said, he didn't believe they were gods people. He believed that the
original descendants of adam and eve were aryans and that the people who
call themselves jews today were really imposters. It's all very
complicated and conspiratorial, but it allowed him to justify using his
christian prejudices to kill jews for their "blood guilt" in the
crucifixion of jesus.
> Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were
> religious?
It's not particularly important to me. The original poster apparently
thought it important to claim that jesus wasn't religious, largely as a
pretext to vilify atheists. I'm just correcting his inaccurate claims.
>And nazis were murderes, criminals. How christian is that
Many, many christians commit murder all the time. They can always
justify it as "fighting terrorism" or "holy war" or "pre-emptive self-
defense", etc.
Christopher A. Lee
Because they hate atheists and are in denial about nearly two
millennia of their religion's bloody hstory. Only Christians (and
perhaps Muslims who regard Jesus as a Prophet) would treat Jews as
Christ-killers.
>--- Jim07D6
omare...@aol.com
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> On 13 Mar 2006 09:11:23 -0800, "Fucked up person" <hut...@jippii.fi>
> wrote:
>
> >If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
> >doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ. Nazis did some ugly
> >things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
> >them.. i mean, Stalin was an atheist. He did too some nasty shit. It
> >hasn't do with religion that much. Men can kill without bible or god.
> >Besides, Hitler hated jews, and christianity is judeo-chistian
> >religion, so it doesn't make sense why he killed jews if they were gods
> >people. Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were
> >religious? And nazis were murderes, criminals. How christian is that?
>
> The holocaust was the culmination of nearly two millennia of
> Christian, church encouraged anti-Semitism.
It had nothing to do with Christianity, though I know how much you
despise the world recognizing what a plague Islam is to civilization
these days. Try not to cry :)
Alberich
The only ones that *could* view the Jews as Christ-killers,
technically, would be the Christians. And even then, some make the
distinction that he wasn't the Christ until he rose from the dead to
fulfill the prophecies.
Alberich
ray o'hara
"GoDrex" <godr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gIacnWxHjo2...@ptd.net...
"how many divisions does the pope have" a hitler
hitler only cared for religion as a tool for social order. otherwise he
thought it crap.
ray o'hara
"DanielSan" <danie...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:44158dc6$0$9086$6d36...@titian.nntpserver.com...
> Fucked up person wrote:
> > Nazism was rejection of christian values, that for instance left-wing
> > commies, the Church and the Salvation Army is promoting, like helping
> > the poor and weak and stuff, so nazism was basically radically
> > atheistic far right movement. But in the nazi regime, Hitler was God
> > and nazism was religion itself. It needed no other gods, because Hitler
> > acted like he was god and people believed in him.
> >
>
> Actually, Hitler was Christian and frequently prayed to God.
>
> http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/prayingHitler.jpg
that picture proves nothing.
Alberich
Geoff
> Geoff wrote:
>> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>>
>>
>
> Yes. I doubt that any atheist would do this:
>
> http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/prayingHitler.jpg
Maybe after a big meal...catching a few winks.
kathryn
"ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:QM2dne_g08M...@comcast.com...
He could of just dozed off
Malcolm
"quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e7f3dbca...@news.readfreenews.net...
> In article <1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> soundof...@mail2world.com says...
>> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>>
>>
>> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>
> Oh the irony that they would choose a title which originally read, "Yes
> Virginia There is a Santa Claus". It was, of course, a defense of the
> lie of Santa, just as this article is a defense of the lie that Catholic
> Hitler and his fanatic "Gott Mitt Uns" Nazis were somehow "atheists".
> BTW, it's amazing how reich-wingers take Hitler at face value when they
> laughably accuse him of "socialism" (despite his staunch anti-communism
> and dismiss his overt support for christianity.
>
Some socialists have no truck with Lenin and Stalin's regime.
Hitler described himself as a socialist, and implemented some polices, such
as trying to lift the economy out of recession by state spending on
infrastructure projects, which were quite clearly socialist in inspiration.
It is not completely accurate to describe the Nazis as atheists, though.
Some were atheists, some were nominal Christians, some dabbled with freaky
pagan type religions. Rather like modern Britian, in fact.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $6.90 paper, available www.lulu.com
Comrad Bluskie
Sound of Kazoo wrote:
>
> Christianity is an invention of sick brains.
Thank you for that candor, sound of kazoo.
Curly Surmudgeon
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
Ok, looney-tune, what does this have to do with alt.anarchism?
You religionist whackos have already fucked up our once-great nation, stop
fucking up our newsgroup.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher A. Lee
>
>Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>> On 13 Mar 2006 09:11:23 -0800, "Fucked up person" <hut...@jippii.fi>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
>> >doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ. Nazis did some ugly
>> >things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
>> >them.. i mean, Stalin was an atheist. He did too some nasty shit. It
>> >hasn't do with religion that much. Men can kill without bible or god.
>> >Besides, Hitler hated jews, and christianity is judeo-chistian
>> >religion, so it doesn't make sense why he killed jews if they were gods
>> >people. Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were
>> >religious? And nazis were murderes, criminals. How christian is that?
>>
>> The holocaust was the culmination of nearly two millennia of
>> Christian, church encouraged anti-Semitism.
>
>It had nothing to do with Christianity, though I know how much you
>despise the world recognizing what a plague Islam is to civilization
>these days. Try not to cry :)
Why the personal lies, liar?
Why are you in denial about Christianity's bloody history?
Read this - you might learn something. It includes Martin Luther's own
words....
http://markhumphrys.com/judaism.html#old.anti.semitism
shrikeback
> In article <1142269883.4...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, hut-
> t...@jippii.fi says...
>> If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
>> doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ.
>
> Did I say otherwise?
>
>
>> Nazis did some ugly
>> things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
>> them.
>
> Hitler was raised a catholic. Pope Pius XII gave strong support to
> Hitler and Mussolini before and during WWII. Now, of course, like pope
> Ratbastard, they try to claim that they had no choice but to overtly
> collaborate with Nazis and Italian fascists.
>
>
>>. i mean, Stalin was an atheist.
>
> Irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, except in so far as
> Hitler was a mortal enemy of both Stalin and communism.
Stalin, however, did not consider himself a mortal enemy of Hitler
until Operation Barbarossa began, and he was so taken by surprise
that he went into a subhuman funk and didn't say a word for a week
after the invasion began.
> The question is
> whether hitler was an atheist. He certainly wasn't overtly and
> officially an atheist. We can all agree on that. This is curious,
> because he essentially had absolute power in Germany, so why would he
> hide it if he was a hardcore atheist?
If he were a hardcore atheist (and it may be that the picture drawn in Table
Talk
is colored by Martin Bormann's perspective), he would have pretended to be
pious for the same reason Machaivelli's Prince gives that advice. But, even
if
it were the case that Hitler was an atheist in private, it wouldn't support
Trumpet's
claim that atheism was to blame, because Hitler still put up a Christian
front for
the sake of the masses.
It's a fallacy of this sort: Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians
will kill
us all!
Denis Loubet
"Fucked up person" <hut...@jippii.fi> wrote in message
news:1142262559....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Nazism was rejection of christian values, that for instance left-wing
> commies, the Church and the Salvation Army is promoting, like helping
> the poor and weak and stuff, so nazism was basically radically
> atheistic far right movement. But in the nazi regime, Hitler was God
> and nazism was religion itself. It needed no other gods, because Hitler
> acted like he was god and people believed in him.
Sorry, he said he was a Christian, and unless you're saying that your
personal interpretation of the bible is the only true one, you are in no
position to contradict him.
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
John Cartmell
<omare...@aol.com> wrote:
> > The holocaust was the culmination of nearly two millennia of
> > Christian, church encouraged anti-Semitism.
> It had nothing to do with Christianity
Like the Pope had nothing to do with Christianity? Remove all the
'non-Christian' Christians following your definition and Christianity would
have died out long before the 20th Century. By all means say that this is not
what Christianity should be about - but don't try denying it's history.
duke
>Hitler was raised a catholic.
But tossed it out the window early in his life. That means he a nazi butcher
who was a former Catholic.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
quibbler
says...
> It's a fallacy of this sort: Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians
> will kill us all!
Well, obvious that part's true, but I guess I see your point ;)
quibbler
regn...@btinternet.com says...
>
>
>
> "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e7f3dbca...@news.readfreenews.net...
> > In article <1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> > soundof...@mail2world.com says...
> >> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
> >
> > Oh the irony that they would choose a title which originally read, "Yes
> > Virginia There is a Santa Claus". It was, of course, a defense of the
> > lie of Santa, just as this article is a defense of the lie that Catholic
> > Hitler and his fanatic "Gott Mitt Uns" Nazis were somehow "atheists".
> > BTW, it's amazing how reich-wingers take Hitler at face value when they
> > laughably accuse him of "socialism" (despite his staunch anti-communism
> > and dismiss his overt support for christianity.
> >
> Some socialists have no truck with Lenin and Stalin's regime.
> Hitler described himself as a socialist,
The problem is that this is such a generic term, especially back then,
that it almost certainly didn't mean the same thing it Weimar Germany as
it does today. Hitler despised labor unions, was an unabashed
imperialist and was heavily influenced by corporatists from the very
beginning. My view is that he exploited populism at a time of economic
desperation. Even George Bush promises to help the little guy when he's
running for election. But when these assholes get into power it's all
about big business to the exclusion of small business and guns to the
exclusion of butter.
> and implemented some polices, such
> as trying to lift the economy out of recession
Certainly, absolutely anyone would have been forced to implement similar
policies at the time. Germany had already lost a major war, so an
immediate military solution wasn't possible. The only thing they could
do is focus on shoring up the domestic economy as much as possible.
> by state spending on
> infrastructure projects, which were quite clearly socialist in inspiration.
That's about all there was to do. Besides, even at the time, many of
these projects had dual uses as military support infrastructure. It's
not necessarily socialist to have big government projects either. The
panama canal was a big project, but few people would call Teddy Roosevelt
a "socialist". Similarly, things from the Great Wall of China to the
Pyramids weren't socialist, despite the monolithic scale of work
involved.
>
> It is not completely accurate to describe the Nazis as atheists,
Yeah, it's actually not even close to accurate.
> Some were atheists,
Certainly, bona fide Nazis like Ratzinger weren't atheists.
> some were nominal Christians, some dabbled with freaky
> pagan type religions. Rather like modern Britian, in fact.
Yeah, but, for the most part, the number of nazi atheists was probably
even smaller than one finds in the average European population today.
Christianity was pretty pervasive in European culture, so it's fairly
hard to believe that somehow abnormally large numbers of atheists arose
over night to populate the Wehrmacht. Even after purges for decades in
the soviet union, the peasants remained orthodox, and I suspect that it
was much the same for your average small-town German kids and farm boys.
James A. Donald
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:14:08 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> "Hitler's Table Talk" has been debunked
> http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
Which tells us " It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against
the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission"
No it is not well known - it is a lie. Nothing happened at that level
except by Hitler's will. Hitler liked to have his subordinates
compete and conflict with each other, but did not permit them to set
their own policy.
Hitler made the churches into instruments of Nazi doctrine and policy.
The Nazi policy of subsuming the churches would, in the long run, have
had much the same effect as the communist policy of suppressing them,
though it created fewer martyrs. Note that the communist chinese
eventually adopted a policy of subsumption closer to that of Hitler
than that of Stalin's policy of suppression, (perhaps fearing the
power of martyrdom) and no one doubts that that was an atheist regime.
You cannot blame Nazism on atheism, for it was not a militantly
atheist regime, it was not Hitler's policy that the party would
substitute for the church, whereas it was communist policy that the
party would substitute for the church, for Christianity, for god, and
for Judaism, with Das Capital as the old testament, and the works of
his disciples as the Talmud or the New Testament. Neither, however,
can you blame Nazism on Christianity, for its roots were in socialism,
paganism, and new ageism.
Nazism was not an atheist movement, but nor was it a Christian
movement. It was even less a Christian movement than it was a
vegetarian movement.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
ApMEzGH5YmZacw/BNrrrI7Fq6IhICdR7S2FY7P60
4142bzcMVPWalU7tshPz8WMY2dbwxYOrPAd13pXJh
James A. Donald
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:00:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
> millennia of their religion's bloody hstory. Only Christians (and
> perhaps Muslims who regard Jesus as a Prophet) would treat Jews as
> Christ-killers.
Hitler did not murder the Jews for being Christ killers. Supposedly
the Jews were the sinister conspiracy running capitalism.
Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades were
genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense against Muslim
intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for a genocide largely
motivated by Christianity, you are going to have to go back several
hundred years. You want a genocide motivated by Islam or Buddhism, or
fairly severe Hindu repression: read today's news. Plus, of course,
Christians do not routinely amputate a woman's clitoris
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Sx6EUKM/3O0ZD8Bv96OWiFoiY0mZaY4e/qketMJS
4GDA334vY9dmEWLaBPf3D1uaY62zVNFigsjDtejTD
Christopher A. Lee
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> --
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:00:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
>> Because they hate atheists and are in denial about nearly two
>> millennia of their religion's bloody hstory. Only Christians (and
>> perhaps Muslims who regard Jesus as a Prophet) would treat Jews as
>> Christ-killers.
>
>Hitler did not murder the Jews for being Christ killers. Supposedly
>the Jews were the sinister conspiracy running capitalism.
And they'd been pariahs to Christians for centuries, as Christ-killers
due to what Martin Luther and others had written. Until it became
enshrined in their culture. They were the whipping boys for all that
was bad.
>Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
>religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades were
Blatant falsehood. Why are so many Christians in denial over its
bloody history?
>genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense against Muslim
>intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for a genocide largely
>motivated by Christianity, you are going to have to go back several
Then why did Hitler claim he was doing "the Lord's work"? And why did
his good Christian followers accept this?
>hundred years. You want a genocide motivated by Islam or Buddhism, or
>fairly severe Hindu repression: read today's news. Plus, of course,
>Christians do not routinely amputate a woman's clitoris
Tu quoque fallacy.
Red herrin
*nemo*
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote:
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
Yadda yadda. When are you planning on coming up with copies of new,
fresh, interesting lies?
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
Gandalf Grey
<omare...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1142276624.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> > On 13 Mar 2006 09:11:23 -0800, "Fucked up person" <hut...@jippii.fi>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >If I say or think that nazism has nothing to do with christianity, it
> > >doesn't automatically make me a believer of christ. Nazis did some ugly
> > >things, and so did catholic church in their past, but the link between
> > >them.. i mean, Stalin was an atheist. He did too some nasty shit. It
> > >hasn't do with religion that much. Men can kill without bible or god.
> > >Besides, Hitler hated jews, and christianity is judeo-chistian
> > >religion, so it doesn't make sense why he killed jews if they were gods
> > >people. Why is it so important to prove that nazis and Hitler were
> > >religious? And nazis were murderes, criminals. How christian is that?
> >
> > The holocaust was the culmination of nearly two millennia of
> > Christian, church encouraged anti-Semitism.
>
> It had nothing to do with Christianity
It had EVERYTHING to do with Church-backed anti-Semitism. Do you honestly
believe you can lie your way out of everything?
shrikeback
>
> "GoDrex" <godr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gIacnWxHjo2...@ptd.net...
>>
>> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> > http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>> >
>> WRONG!
>>
>>
>
>
> "how many divisions does the pope have" a hitler
I think that's actually a j. stalin quote.
Dan Clore
> "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e7f3dbca...@news.readfreenews.net...
>>In article <1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
>>soundof...@mail2world.com says...
>>>http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>>>
>>>Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>>
>>Oh the irony that they would choose a title which originally read, "Yes
>>Virginia There is a Santa Claus". It was, of course, a defense of the
>>lie of Santa, just as this article is a defense of the lie that Catholic
>>Hitler and his fanatic "Gott Mitt Uns" Nazis were somehow "atheists".
>>BTW, it's amazing how reich-wingers take Hitler at face value when they
>>laughably accuse him of "socialism" (despite his staunch anti-communism
>>and dismiss his overt support for christianity.
>>
> Some socialists have no truck with Lenin and Stalin's regime.
> Hitler described himself as a socialist,
Calling yourself one doesn't make you one, but that hardly
matters since Hitler never did describe himself as a
socialist, as opposed to a national-socialist (German
_Nationsozialist_). He used this term because of the name of
his political party, the Deutsche Nationalsozialistische
Arbeiterpartei. Hitler's preferred name for the party had
been the Social Revolutionary Party, but he lost out when it
was named.
> and implemented some polices, such
> as trying to lift the economy out of recession by state spending on
> infrastructure projects, which were quite clearly socialist in inspiration.
Nothing particularly socialist there.
While Hitler did use some "socialist" rhetoric to gain
support, and while the Nazi party platform did include some
"socialist" planks, Hitler never made any pretense of
actually enacting them once he came to power, and actually
slaughtered the wing of the Nazi party that had favored them.
> It is not completely accurate to describe the Nazis as atheists, though.
> Some were atheists, some were nominal Christians, some dabbled with freaky
> pagan type religions. Rather like modern Britian, in fact.
One of the more interesting aspects of Nazism is that Hitler
tolerated basically any religion, so long as its adherents
were good Nazis. (He did outlaw any group with a lodge
structure, like Masonic and Theosophic groups.) Most
totalitarian dictators don't do this.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1587154838/thedanclorenecro/
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:00:44 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
> > Because they hate atheists and are in denial about nearly two
> > millennia of their religion's bloody hstory. Only Christians (and
> > perhaps Muslims who regard Jesus as a Prophet) would treat Jews as
> > Christ-killers.
>
> Hitler did not murder the Jews for being Christ killers. Supposedly
> the Jews were the sinister conspiracy running capitalism.
They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were they the
people running it. It's just that jews were free of usury laws and
therefore they periodically made up tales of jewish avarice as an excuse
to run them out of town and kill them, thereby avoiding having to pay
back loans.
>
> Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
> religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades were
> genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense against Muslim
> intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for a genocide largely
> motivated by Christianity, you are going to have to go back several
> hundred years. You want a genocide motivated by Islam or Buddhism
Yeah, those buddhist terrorists are burning themselves all over the
place. It really makes a mess.
, or
> fairly severe Hindu repression: read today's news. Plus, of course,
> Christians do not routinely amputate a woman's clitoris
No, but they condemn her to compulsory pregnancy or back alley abortion.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > Hitler did not murder the Jews for being Christ killers.
> > Supposedly the Jews were the sinister conspiracy running
> > capitalism.
Christopher A. Lee
> And they'd been pariahs to Christians for centuries, as
> Christ-killers due to what Martin Luther and others had written.
> Until it became enshrined in their culture. They were the whipping
> boys for all that was bad.
The big feature on the list of indictments of the Jews was that
German's found themselves watching plays written by Jews, just as
today they indict Americans for the fact that they watch American
movies and eat at McDonalds.
James A. Donald:
> > Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
> > religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades
> > were
Christopher A. Lee
> Blatant falsehood. Why are so many Christians in denial over its
> bloody history?
I am not a Christian, and bloody though the history of christianity
is, everyone's history gets bloody when you total up a thousand years
worth of crimes. Totaled over thousands of years, the history of
Christianity is not strikingly better or worse than other religions,
and Totaled over the last few hundred years it is a lot less dreadful
than the other major religions, in particular a lot less dreadful than
Islam.
James A. Donald:
> >genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense against
> >Muslim intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for a
> >genocide largely motivated by Christianity, you are going to have
> >to go back several
Christopher A. Lee
> Then why did Hitler claim he was doing "the Lord's work"? And why
> did his good Christian followers accept this?
It is silly to suggest that Hitler or his followers were motivated by
Christianity - they, like Marxists, were following a silly theory of
economics, except that the Marxists make labor central, while the
fascists, like the Greens and some neo marxists, make resources
central. The nazis murdered people for reasons rather similar to
those that the greens and neo marxists give for their proposed harsh
and drastic remedies - defense against what is now called globalism
and neo conservatism, and the supposedly coming resource crisis.
By the way, have you noticed that if someone is called a
"neoconservative", three times out of four he is Jewish or allegedly
Jewish, and the fourth time, when he is not Jewish, it is explained
that he is an empty headed actor leading lines written for him by a
mysterious, powerful and secretive conspiracy. If you want to know
why the Jews were murdered, just google for the sins attributed to
"neoconservatives". Christ killing is seldom on the list.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
E25Aq/WsBRV2QFVXKHzOFAwhLM/3c2u+epYtFGMN
4k1ObRtM6NIEP4/QlJ4BrwjS/twMx15nu/9xdv5Mj
James A. Donald
quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were they
> the people running it. It's just that jews were free of usury laws
> and therefore they periodically made up tales of jewish avarice as
> an excuse to run them out of town and kill them, thereby avoiding
> having to pay back loans.
But this problem had long since been solved, when Christians got in on
charging interest some centuries ago. Hitler's theory was that
capitalism was centrally run by a Jewish conspiracy, and he would make
capitalism authentically German, by having an authentic German, that
is to say Hitler, run it. Google for "Bilderberg" to read up on the
details of the evil Jewish conspiracy that supposedly runs the world's
economy, with the neoconservatives supposedly pulling the strings on
the American presidency and military to enforce world wide Jewish
domination.
> > Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
> > religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades
> > were genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense
> > against Muslim intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for
> > a genocide largely motivated by Christianity, you are going to
> > have to go back several hundred years. You want a genocide
> > motivated by Islam or Buddhism
quibbler
> Yeah, those buddhist terrorists are burning themselves all over the
> place. It really makes a mess.
I had in mind the genocide of the Karens. Google for karen genocide.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Rr2uGcEkh4QwkBMA4V+MlGM/oSI1E8iOwwJAUYDd
4brVkaUri33JERwO2BLC7b/4xOEA5LlSL9+T8bY6X
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
>
> Totaled over the last few hundred years it is a lot less dreadful
> than the other major religions,
Only if you ignore things like European colonialism, which was largely
driven by xian missionary zeal. Huge numbers of indigenous people all
over the world were killed or enslaved in the process of attempting to
colonize and "christianize". While some christians notably objected to
to enslavement of the locals, many good xians (or jews for that matter)
quite correctly pointed to the mention of slavery and bond servitude in
the old and new testament to justify their actions. Plus, there are all
of the people who die because of ill-conceived xian notions, from their
early opposition to vaccination to banning of contraception.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > Totaled over the last few hundred years [Christianity] is a lot
> > less dreadful than the other major religions,
quibbler
> Only if you ignore things like European colonialism, which was
> largely driven by xian missionary zeal. Huge numbers of indigenous
> people all over the world were killed or enslaved in the process of
> attempting to colonize and "christianize".
To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most part
did end the slave trade.
For the most part, you cannot pin colonialism on Christianity, and you
certainly cannot pin the worst excesses of colonialism on
Christianity: As Cortez observed "I and my companions have a
complaint-a disease of the heart, which only gold can cure."
Christopher Columbus's report did not say their souls needed saving,
but that they had gold, and inadequate means to defend it.
To the extent that colonialism was driven by idealistic motives, as
for example
http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/The_White_Mans_.htm, there
was nothing specifically christian about these motives. They were
attempting to spread western civilization generally, of which
Christianity was a part, and the prohibition against slavery and
terrorism another part. And to the extent that colonialism was not
driven by idealistic motives, they made plain enough what these
motives were.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
E5IrkFCVWsUjwtOYNtY0oRHC4te3Dhl+FAmJ2tk5
4G4hIjtOVYb7uHk69O4rtuj68uVobMC/mh+freCa3
wbarwell
>
> "GoDrex" <godr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gIacnWxHjo2...@ptd.net...
>>
>> "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> > http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>> >
>> WRONG!
>>
>>
>
>
> "how many divisions does the pope have"
> a hitler
>
> hitler only cared for religion as a tool for social order. otherwise he
> thought it crap.
Wronnggggggggg!
NUMBER: 55130
QUOTATION: The Pope? How many divisions has he got?
ATTRIBUTION: Josef Stalin (1879?1953), Soviet leader. Quoted in Winston
Churchill, ?The Gathering Storm,? vol. 1, ch. 8, The Second World War
(1948).
Said, May 13, 1935, to French Foreign Minister Pierre Laval, in reply to a
suggestion that the Soviet Union should encourage Catholicism in order to
propitiate the Pope.
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
bob young
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>
> by daniel duffy
>
> at Sun 4 Apr 6:31am
Hitler was a magalomaniac and as such he was useless as an example of
human frailties. He used people all the time.
If you want to study ongoing cruelty over a period ten times that of
Hitlers short hold on power study the Inquisition. It will reveal how
banal and cruel humans can be whenever they fear the actions of others
that do not agree with them.
Inquisition lasted from 1480 to 1834. In the first ten years 2,000 people
'burned' to death. Fully confirmed as a Christian activity by a Papal Bull
in July 1547.
Cheers
Bob
humanist Brit.
>
>
> A.N. Wilson in "God's Funeral" comes very close to laying the horrors
> of the 20th century at the feet of the atheistic philosophers of the
> 19th century. He sites two main philosophical branches: the
> Carlyle/Nietzsche branch in which God is replaced with the hero or
> superman, and the Hegel/Marx branch in which heaven is replaced with a
> workers utopia. The first gave us the atrocities of the far right, the
> other the atrocities of the far left.
>
> The Nazis, Hitler especially, despised Christianity as a belief fit
> only for weaklings, not for the coming Superman. With the possible
> exception of Himmler and his bizarre paganism, the Nazi ruling circle
> was composed of atheists. Though he called himself a Christian in Mein
> Kampf and in several speeches, it is well to remember that these were
> pronouncements for public consumption and were made by a consummate
> liar/politician. For his real views on the subject see his Table Talk,
> surreptitiously recorded by Martin Borman and never intended for the
> public. These statements represent his real views (more on this below).
>
> Hitler had every intention of destroying the Christian faith and
> replacing it with Nazism when the time was ripe. His accommodations
> with the Roman Catholic Church and German Protestant churches were
> purely tactical. For a more in depth look at this issue see the OSS
> post war report on Nazism and the churches at www.lawandreligion.com
> run by Rutgers University. For a shorter version, see pages 477-478 of
> Weinberg's "A World at Arms" (IMHO the best single volume history of
> the war). Religious faith was the common enemy of atheistic regimes of
> both the far right and the far left.
>
> An historical article from Christianity Today sums up the conclusions
> of the OSS report quite nicely:
>
> Donovan's Nuremberg report undermines the assertion, made by Feldman
> and so many others, that because several key Nazis had ties (however
> tenuous) to a church, and because the Nazis advanced insidious
> policies, then those insidious policies must be inherently Christian.
> To what extent elements of popular Christian ideology fed Hitler's
> anti-Semitism is a separate and valid question, but the "if A then B"
> connection fails because insidious anti-Christian policies do not fit
> the syllogism above. A plan to eradicate Christianity can hardly be
> construed as Christian, and persons supporting such a plan can hardly
> be considered believers of any standing.
>
> Perhaps we can now put that "Nazis were Christians" canard into the
> same waste heap as holocaust denial. Now, as for Hitler's Table Talk:
>
> Outside of the officially atheist Soviet Union, what politician in the
> 1930s (or even today, at least here in America) would publicly (or even
> privately)admit to being an atheist? Hitler was a skilled politician
> and a consummate liar (the two often go together). Mein Kampf was for
> public consumption and expressed only those views most likely to get
> him elected. To really understand what such a man believes, it is
> necessary to view those words that were not intended for public
> consumption, as historian Hugh Trevor-Roper makes clear:
>
> We must go direct to Hitler's personal utterances: not indeed to his
> letters and speeches-- these, though valuable, are too public, too
> formalised for such purposes-- but to his private conversations, his
> Table-Talk. Table-Talk, like notebooks, reveal the mind of a man far
> more completely, more intimately, than any formal utterance.
>
> In Table Talk the following statements on Christianity by Hitler will
> be found:
>
> The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of
> Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are
> inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was
> introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie
> of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in
> reality it seeks only to enslave them.
>
> Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against
> nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the
> systematic cultivation of the human failure.
>
> Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things
> that can't, or can't yet, be explained-that is to say, of the unknown.
> If anyone has needs of a metaphysical nature, I can't satisfy them with
> the Party's programme. Time will go by until the moment when science
> can answer all the questions.
>
> Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this
> respect. And that's why one day its structure will collapse. Science
> has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity
> clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline.
>
> A movement like ours mustn't let itself be drawn into metaphysical
> digressions. It must stick to the spirit of exact science. It's not the
> Party's function to be a counterfeit for religion.
>
> If in the course of a thousand or two thousand years, science arrives
> at the necessity of renewing its points of view, that will not mean
> that science is a liar. Science cannot lie, for it's always striving,
> according to the momentary state of knowledge to deduce what is true.
> When it makes a mistake, it does 10 in good faith. It's Christianity
> that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself.
>
> The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that
> it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
>
> Pure Christianity-the Christianity of the catacombs-is concerned with
> translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to
> the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole- hearted Bolshevism,
> under a tinsel of metaphysics.
>
> I adopted a definite attitude on the 21st March 1933 when I refused to
> take part in the religious services, organised at Potsdam by the two
> Churches, for the inauguration of the new Reichstag.
>
> Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It
> will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret
> will have been that I couldn't, like whoever the prophet was, behold
> the promised land from afar.
>
> The fact that I remain silent in public over Church affairs is not in
> the least misunderstood by the sly foxes of the Catholic Church, and I
> am quite sure that a man like the Bishop von Galen knows full well that
> after the war I shall extract retribution to the last farthing. And, if
> he does not succeed in getting himself transferred in the meanwhile to
> the Collegium Germanium in Rome, he may rest assured that in the
> balancing of our accounts, no "T" will remain uncrossed, no "I"
> undotted!
bob young
Fucked up person wrote:
> Nazism was rejection of christian values, that for instance left-wing
> commies, the Church and the Salvation Army is promoting, like helping
> the poor and weak and stuff, so nazism was basically radically
> atheistic far right movement. But in the nazi regime, Hitler was God
> and nazism was religion itself. It needed no other gods, because Hitler
> acted like he was god and people believed in him.
An educated man retains the sense of the mysteries of nature and bows
before the unknowable. An educated man, on the other hand, runs the
risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the
animal).
[Adolf Hitler]
We don't want to educate anyone in atheism.
[Adolf Hitler]
Without pledging ourselves to any particular Confession (Protestantism
or Catholicism), we have restored to faith its prerequisites because we
were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that
not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
[Adolf Hitler]
Nick J.
Go fuck yourself, you anti-semitic piece of dog shit.
johac
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote:
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>
Come now. This was debunked so many times. Find a new schtick.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
Curly Surmudgeon
> --
> James A. Donald:
>> > Totaled over the last few hundred years [Christianity] is a lot
>> > less dreadful than the other major religions,
>
> quibbler
>> Only if you ignore things like European colonialism, which was
>> largely driven by xian missionary zeal. Huge numbers of indigenous
>> people all over the world were killed or enslaved in the process of
>> attempting to colonize and "christianize".
>
> To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
> motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most part
> did end the slave trade.
Wow, I've never heard this claim before. In fact local evidence here in
California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend his
crops and properties.
Nor in Latin America where the Catholic Church eradicated many cultures
and tribes taking gleeful part in looting, raping and pillaging along with
their sycophants the Spanish Conquistadores.
John Cartmell
Curly Surmudgeon <cu...@curlysurmudgeon.com> replied to:
> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most part
> > did end the slave trade.
> Wow, I've never heard this claim before. In fact local evidence here in
> California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
> that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend his
> crops and properties.
>
> Nor in Latin America where the Catholic Church eradicated many cultures
> and tribes taking gleeful part in looting, raping and pillaging along with
> their sycophants the Spanish Conquistadores.
It depends on the date and the colonists. If you look at the 16th century and
colonisation by the Spanish then your views should prevail. If you look at the
19th century and the British and your ideas are up the creek. The question now
is which is the 20th/21st century colonisation by the USA most like.
€€ R. L. Measures
<wbar...@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>
> > "Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote in message
> > news:1142253344....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
> >
> > Wrong again.
>
>
> Lets see them quotes...
>
>
>
> History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians
> who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian
> deed.
• Good point.
>Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church
> leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of
> Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult
> worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on
> those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the
> Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler
> expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers.
> Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to
> history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.
• Indeed. Hitler was a great admirer of the Jesuits.
>
> Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of
> producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I
> haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by
> writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my
> personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian
> will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the
> offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and
> my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is
> important information to take into consideration for I am privy to
> some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American
> media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning
> Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it
> into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the
> Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism.
• The RCC hated the "Christ killers", Hitler hated them too. Hitler once
said that he intended to finish what the Church started.
>3)
> Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into
> Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain
> for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due
> to his Christianity.
>
>
>
> Hitler’s involvement with the Church:
>
> a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
>
> b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On
> his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was
> carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
>
> c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
• I have heard that he also served in the choir.
>
...
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
Mark K. Bilbo
Trumpet" <soundof...@mail2world.com> wrote:
> http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=04/04/01/03444034;cid=55
>
>
> Yes Virginia, Hitler (and the Nazis) were Atheists
>
> by daniel duffy
Even if true, it's utterly irrelevant in that atheism isn't a moral code.
You know, it's not much of an argument to claim Christianity is "not as
bad as Hitler."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
I just love this...
"For those of us who grew up in Louisiana,
'The Wizard of Oz' was like a documentary.
Dorothy left Kansas and simply went to Mardi Gras."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W2EA439BC
Um... didn't foresee what exactly?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5CA129BC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
quibbler
cu...@curlysurmudgeon.com says...
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:49:06 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
>
> > --
> > James A. Donald:
> >> > Totaled over the last few hundred years [Christianity] is a lot
> >> > less dreadful than the other major religions,
> >
> > quibbler
> >> Only if you ignore things like European colonialism, which was
> >> largely driven by xian missionary zeal. Huge numbers of indigenous
> >> people all over the world were killed or enslaved in the process of
> >> attempting to colonize and "christianize".
> >
> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most part
> > did end the slave trade.
>
> Wow, I've never heard this claim before. In fact local evidence here in
> California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
> that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend his
> crops and properties.
Yes, there are numerous examples of religiously based exploitation and
enslavement of the locals. Because these people were non-xians it
justified treating them as less than human. But all the xers like to
talk about are those rare individuals like Las Casas who protested the
evil treatment that was the norm from xian conquerors.
BTW, you can just hear the xian whining now. They'll say, how can you
blame xianity for the fact that people calling themselves xians did bad
things? Well, it's the same standard they apply to muslims and other
religions. These actions were taken by xian monarchs and their lieges.
quibbler
jo...@cartmell.demon.co.uk says...
> It depends on the date and the colonists. If you look at the 16th century and
> colonisation by the Spanish then your views should prevail. If you look at the
> 19th century and the British
The british were quite good at setting up little puppet governments and
then pretending that they weren't pulling all the strings behind the
scenes. They claimed to get rid of slavery in the 1830's, but in
some of their colonies there was still the equivalent of slavery well
into the 20th century, in the form of defacto bond servitude. But it
helps when it's not in your country and your citizens don't have to look
at it.
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were they
> > the people running it. It's just that jews were free of usury laws
> > and therefore they periodically made up tales of jewish avarice as
> > an excuse to run them out of town and kill them, thereby avoiding
> > having to pay back loans.
>
> But this problem had long since been solved, when Christians got in on
> charging interest some centuries ago.
Sure, but by that time there was a long and venerable history of hating
jews which had been codified into culture, particularly in places like
Germany where the oberramagau passion plays were just an excuse to hate
on hebes. Jews didn't do themselves too many favors with their own
racially exclusivist attitudes about gentiles and their hard-headed
orthodoxies.
> Hitler's theory was that
> capitalism was centrally run by a Jewish conspiracy, and he would make
> capitalism authentically German,
Well, as even you're admitting, it was not that capitalism was run by
jews, but just that certain jewish capitalists were subverting the normal
workings of capitalism and limiting opportunities due to their
wealth/dominance.
> by having an authentic German, that
> is to say Hitler, run it. Google for "Bilderberg"
I'm quite familiar with the elaborate nonsense.
> to read up on the
> details of the evil Jewish conspiracy that supposedly runs the world's
> economy, with the neoconservatives supposedly pulling the strings on
> the American presidency
There doesn't need to be a jewish economic conspiracy for neocons to be
in power. It's quite easy and common to try to dismiss legitimate
criticisms by conflating them with unrelated "conspiracies". For
example, without invoking Jewish bankers at all, it's clear that Israel
was a US ally during the cold war and it's also clear that Israel does
try to influence American policy to take care of security threats in the
middle east. In a lot of cases, Israel gets far more out of such things
than we do.
> and military to enforce world wide Jewish
> domination.
If you think that Mossad hasn't tried to conduct false flag operations in
the past to manipulate Europe and the US into doing their bidding then
I'd say you're being overly trusting. Israel has been a military ally
for a long time, so the notion that we would do operations to benefit
them is not so far fetched.
>
> > > Christianity has been fairly well behaved, compared to most other
> > > religions, throughout most of its history. Some of the crusades
> > > were genocidal, but for the most part they were self defense
> > > against Muslim intent and efforts to rule. If you go looking for
> > > a genocide largely motivated by Christianity, you are going to
> > > have to go back several hundred years. You want a genocide
> > > motivated by Islam or Buddhism
>
> quibbler
> > Yeah, those buddhist terrorists are burning themselves all over the
> > place. It really makes a mess.
>
> I had in mind the genocide of the Karens. Google for karen genocide.
Yeah, that's about like saying that vietnam war was the fault of buddhism
since many people in the country are buddhist. In the case of SLORC or
myanmar, or whatever the hell they're calling themselves, these guys are
clearly dictators only paying lipservice to religion. But, FWIW, if you
want to I guess we can go ahead and assign some blame to religion.
Personally, I think the conflict with the Karens has more to do with
ethnic rivalries and their actions during WWII, but whatever.
Fucked up person
get me wrong, and think i'm a big promoter of Christian religion, well
they are dead wrong. Christians are nothing more than big hypocrites.
Nazism is an ideology that's based on hating others, because of their
skin color or sexual orientation, and that's why it blows. So is
Christianity, they have always been - and are to this day - on the war
against homosexuals, prostitutes, feminism etc. Christianity - like
many other religions - is very misogynic, and so is nazism. I can say
there REALLY are many similiarties in those wicked
ideologies/theologies/what ever. That's my subjective opinion. Other
things i've said are not my personal opinions.
Fucked up person
they still are two totally different things. They both are based on
ignorance, power, obedience, etc. Abolishing science and knowledge by
book burnings and cencorship. Yeah, they have many things in common.
But it doesn't make nazis religious. Hitler maybe was, i dunno.. But
how about those neo-nazis, skinheads, soccer hooligans, what ever?
Jim07D6
IMO similarities in these two human institutions are due to humans
being involved -- who shape those institutions to serve their ends. It
is clear, based on their histories, that there is no benign, divine
guidance affecting either of them.
--- Jim07D6
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most
> > part did end the slave trade.
Curly Surmudgeon
> Wow, I've never heard this claim before.
You are self enclosed behind your own little Berlin wall.
The major motive (or at least the major motive that the colonialists
were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to end slavery.
> In fact local evidence here in
> California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
> that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend
> his crops and properties.
The major announced reason for that colonial effort, the colonization
of the Americas by the Spaniards, was not Christianity but the reason
announced by Cortez "I and my companions have a complaint-a disease of
the heart, which only gold can cure."
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
fMxeq1qu4F5zKubgzC+mI+nrV601AJUhkav+Oodl
4hkplJMO1fRR/yYiUk/jvZ33j+j9rqmO0NTT5dqkY
brique
Curly Surmudgeon <cu...@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:44167ed7$0$20315$a82e...@reader.athenanews.com...
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:49:06 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
>
> > --
> > James A. Donald:
> >> > Totaled over the last few hundred years [Christianity] is a lot
> >> > less dreadful than the other major religions,
> >
> > quibbler
> >> Only if you ignore things like European colonialism, which was
> >> largely driven by xian missionary zeal. Huge numbers of indigenous
> >> people all over the world were killed or enslaved in the process of
> >> attempting to colonize and "christianize".
> >
> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most part
> > did end the slave trade.
>
> Wow, I've never heard this claim before. In fact local evidence here in
> California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
> that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend his
> crops and properties.
>
> Nor in Latin America where the Catholic Church eradicated many cultures
> and tribes taking gleeful part in looting, raping and pillaging along with
> their sycophants the Spanish Conquistadores.
Its a doozy, aint it..... colonialism driven by the desire to end
slavery..... I suppsoe next we will be told how imperialism was driven by
Isolationism......
jam...@echeque.com
quibbler:
> > > They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were
> > > they the people running it. It's just that jews were free of
> > > usury laws and therefore they periodically made up tales of
> > > jewish avarice as an excuse to run them out of town and kill
> > > them, thereby avoiding having to pay back loans.
James A. Donald:
> > But this problem had long since been solved, when Christians got
> > in on charging interest some centuries ago.
quibbler:
> Sure, but by that time there was a long and venerable history of
> hating jews which had been codified into culture, particularly in
> places like Germany
So you suggest that they murdered Jews in the twentieth century due to
reasons that happened in the sixteenth century?
That seems improbable on its face, and the evidence contradicts it.
The twentieth century murderers announced their reasons, and they had
twentieth century reasons - very similar to the reasons for today's
anti Americanism, except that killing Americans is apt to have
considerably more serious consequences than killing Jews.
James A. Donald:
> > Google for "Bilderberg" to read up on the details of the evil
> > Jewish conspiracy that supposedly runs the world's economy, with
> > the neoconservatives supposedly pulling the strings on the
> > American presidency
quibbler:
> There doesn't need to be a jewish economic conspiracy for neocons to
> be in power. It's quite easy and common to try to dismiss
> legitimate criticisms by conflating them with unrelated
> "conspiracies".
You are condemning imaginary anti semitism, and excusing real anti
semitism. If you google for "neoconservative" and look for the first
"neoconservative" identified in each article, three out of four of
them will be real or alleged Jews, and the fourth one will be widely
depicted (though not necessarily in the article pulled up by google)
as an empty headed pawn controlled by sinister forces.
> For example, without invoking Jewish bankers at all, it's clear that
> Israel was a US ally during the cold war and it's also clear that
> Israel does try to influence American policy to take care of
> security threats in the middle east. In a lot of cases, Israel gets
> far more out of such things than we do.
That is true, and it is also true that Hollywood is mostly run by
Jews, and that a lot of Europeans are very angry that they so
frequently find themselves watching stuff created in Hollywood - a lot
more angry about such things than they are about "christ killing".
The fact that there is a molehill under the supposed mountain does not
make it any the less anti semitism.
> If you think that Mossad hasn't tried to conduct false flag
> operations in the past to manipulate Europe and the US into doing
> their bidding then I'd say you're being overly trusting.
As soon as I start talking about the roots of twentieth century
antisemitism, you start defending it.
Even if twentieth century antisemitism was entirely justified by the
terrible wickedness of those awful Jews^H^H^H^HZionists, nonetheless
twentieth century anti semitism is twentieth century antisemitism.
Sixteenth century antisemitism is dead as a doornail.
James Donald:
> > Google for karen genocide.
quibbler:
> Yeah, that's about like saying that vietnam war was the fault of
> buddhism since many people in the country are buddhist.
People in Vietnam were murdered by communists, who were atheists
motivated by an atheist ideology. They were murdered for being
bourgeois, or exploiting the masses, or having bourgeoise thoughts.
People in Burma are being murdered by Buddhists, motivated by a
Buddhist ideology, murdered for not being Buddhist. You may argue
that the murderers are not true Buddhists, but that is like arguing
that the witch burners were not true Christians.
> In the case of SLORC or myanmar, or whatever the hell they're
> calling themselves, these guys are clearly dictators only paying
> lipservice to religion.
One could similarly claim that Ferdinand and Isabella were clearly
dictators only paying lip service to religion. Why do you make that
excuse for Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims, when you will not accept it
for Christians? Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the
Gander.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
kiilFtOluwm7aSpL9yWvfA5PRNASqu7EGRwrI1xA
49gv/KP1Dqhr7j6zco0UGEhPZ+TPIffPPybiB6Sro
quibbler
@cox.net says...
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:00:14 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Hitler was raised a catholic.
>
> But tossed it out the window early in his life.
As well he should have, though it's not clear that he ever got over
the mind fucking or the pedo rape of his upbringing.
> That means he a nazi butcher
> who was a former Catholic.
You can take the priest's dick out of the altar boy, but you can't
stop the altar boy from being a genocidal dick.
--
"Faith, indeed, has up to the present not been
able to move real mountains ... But it can put
mountains where there are none." -- Nietzsche
2310 Dead
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> --
>James A. Donald:
>> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
>> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most
>> > part did end the slave trade.
>
>Curly Surmudgeon
>> Wow, I've never heard this claim before.
>
>You are self enclosed behind your own little Berlin wall.
>
>The major motive (or at least the major motive that the colonialists
>were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to end slavery.
And a bang-up job they did of it too!
Oh, wait...
duke
>> But tossed it out the window early in his life.
>As well he should have, though it's not clear that he ever got over
>the mind fucking or the pedo rape of his upbringing.
Yep, it's the only way he could gas 6 million Jews. He was atheist thru and
thru.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
wbarwell
http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/belt.htm
From the New York Times, May 14, 1993, page 2
ATHEIST HALL CONVERTED
Berlin
Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers
In Freethinkers Hall , which before the Nazi
resurgence was the national headquarters of the
German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant
church authorities have opened a bureau for advice
to the public in church matters. Its chief object
is to win back former churchgoers and assist those
who have not previously belonged to any religious
congregation in obtaining church membership.
The German Freethinkers League, which was swept
away by the national revolution, was the largest
of such organizations in Germany. It had about
500,000 members on Hitler's outlawing of atheistic
and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring
of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler
to rule by decree.
(End)
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because
such schools have no religious instruction, and
a general moral instruction without religious
foundation is built on air; consequently all
character training and religion must be derived
from faith."
Adolf Hitler - (April 1933)
Background: This speech was delivered to the
annual congress of the Nazi party on 13 September
1935. Goebbels was rather proud of the effort. He
wrote in his diary on 15 September: "A brilliant
success. The Führer was genuinely enthused. A
storm of applause, My material was deeply moving."
The source: This text is taken from the English
translation published by the Nazis in 1935.
Communism with the Mask Off
by Joseph Goebbels
Prior to our advent to power, the atheist
propaganda carried out by the Marxists in
Germany, whose forces we have overthrown, took
its stand in favour of the dreadful state of
things which I have described. The Social
Democratic "League of German Freethinkers" alone
had a membership of 600,000. The Communist "League
of Proletarian Freethinkers' had close on 160,000
members. Almost without exception, the
intellectual leaders of Marxist atheism in Germany
were Jews, among them being Erich Weinert, Felix
Abraham, Dr. Levy-Lenz and others. At regular
meetings, held in the presence of a notary public,
members were requested to register their
declaration of withdrawal from their church for a
fee of 2 Marks. And thus the fight for atheism was
carried on. Between 1918 and 1933 the withdrawals
from the German Evangelical Churches alone
amounted to two-and-a-half million persons in
Germany. The programme which these atheistic
societies laid down in regard to sexual matters is
amply characterised in the following demands
publicly expressed at meetings and distributed in
leaflet form:
1. The complete abrogation of those paragraphs of
the law dealing with the crime of abortion, and
the right to have abortion procured free of charge
in State Hospitals.
2. Non-interference with prostitution.
3. The abrogation of all bourgeois-capitalistic
regulations in regard to marriage and divorce.
4. Official registration to be optional and the
children to be educated by the community.
5. Abrogation of all penalties for sexual
perversities and amnesty to be granted to all
persons condemned as "sexual criminals".
Truly a case of methodical insanity, which has for
its aim the wilful destruction of the nations and
their civilization and the substitution of
barbarism as a fundamental principle of public
life.
Where are the men behind the scenes of this
virulent world movement? Who are the inventors of
all this madness? Who transplanted this ensemble
into Russia and is today making the attempt to
have it prevail in other countries? The answer to
these questions discloses the actual secret of our
anti-Jewish policy and our uncompromising fight
against Jewry; for the Bolshevic International is
in reality nothing less than a Jewish
International.
.............
In 1892 Haeckel began calling for the creation of
a monistic religion to spread these beliefs.
Unfortunately Haeckel was so attached to his
conservative, racist and eugenic political
programme that it became entwined in his Monist
religion. Indeed it often overshadowed the
religious side and eventually led to the
dissolution of the Monist movement and its
longterm discrediting in Germany by association
with Nazism.
In 1906 he launched the Monistenbund, the Monistic
Alliance. Within five years the Alliance had a
membership of 6,000, with branches in 42 cities
and villages of Germany and Austria.
The Alliance had multiple aims. In part it
attempted to be a pantheistic church, though
Haeckel himself frowned on the more irrational
aspects of ritual. It was actively anti-clerical,
and brought under its umbrella many freethinkers,
including the physicist Ernst Mach and the
sociologist Ferdinand Tönnies.
Fatefully, the Alliance became deeply concerned
with advancing Haeckel's social programmes,
including his abhorrent ideas on eugenics and
euthanasia.
These ideas were taken up by the Nazi party - but
the Nazi religious programme, closer to Teutonic
paganism than to pantheism, did not coincide with
Haeckel's. In 1933, when Hitler became Chancellor,
the Monist League was disbanded.
------
That Hitler exploited religion for political gain,
however, is a given. He knew that he lived in a
nation that was overwhelmingly Christian, and he
used Christianity to pander to mass idiocy in
order to draw the biggest crowd in history.
Hitler?s image as a Christian on a mission from
God spread the world over and reached America
early. On February 23, 1933, the Associated Press
ran a wire story under the headline, "Hitler Aims
Blow at Godless Movement" The article described
Hitler reaching out to Catholics for support in
his attack against the "spread of atheism", citing
a papal encyclical admonishing priests to "serve
the religious interests of the nation".
"Hitler, himself, is a Catholic", the article
noted.
--------------
James Burns
> Nazism was rejection of christian values, that for instance left-wing
> commies, the Church and the Salvation Army is promoting, like helping
> the poor and weak and stuff, so nazism was basically radically
> atheistic far right movement. But in the nazi regime, Hitler was God
> and nazism was religion itself. It needed no other gods, because Hitler
> acted like he was god and people believed in him.
>
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Next question: Are Republicans Atheists?
Jim Burns
quibbler
@cox.net says...
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 11:01:19 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> But tossed it out the window early in his life.
>
> >As well he should have, though it's not clear that he ever got over
> >the mind fucking or the pedo rape of his upbringing.
>
> Yep, it's the only way he could gas 6 million Jews.
I agree that the Catholic mind fucking was essential to his anti-semetic
desire to kill 6 million jews.
> He was atheist thru and thru.
Nope. Atheists don't give a crap about whether someone was of jewish
ancestry or not. Theist Nazis rejected jewish atheists like Einstein
because of their religious prejudices and thereby lost the war.
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:14:08 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > "Hitler's Table Talk" has been debunked
> > http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
>
> Which tells us " It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against
> the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission"
>
> No it is not well known - it is a lie. Nothing happened at that level
> except by Hitler's will.
First, these were private notes which were not made public until after
Hitler's death. Secondly, there are only small snippets which are
allegedly critical of xianity, and these small snippets could have been
inserted, especially since they disagree with other statements known to
be made by hitler. Bormann admitted to editing the notes and he was not
the only person, after the war to participate in translating and
redacting.
> for its roots were in socialism,
Actually, it had zero to do with socialism. The nazi regime was both
imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth and rank. Neither of
these principles is consistent with socialism.
> paganism, and new ageism.
You mean occultism. Certainly "new age" didn't exist at the time.
DanielSan
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 11:01:19 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>But tossed it out the window early in his life.
>
>
>>As well he should have, though it's not clear that he ever got over
>>the mind fucking or the pedo rape of his upbringing.
>
>
> Yep, it's the only way he could gas 6 million Jews. He was atheist thru and
> thru.
>
Would an atheist do the following?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/prayingHitler.jpg
Would an atheist get the support of Vatican cardinals, such as Bertram?
Saith Bertram: "Warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of
the bishops and the dioceses in Germany."
Would an atheist say, "I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when
he came to his Father's Temple and found the money changers"?
Would an atheist have Christian fans?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/HitlerWithFan.jpg
Why is Klara Hitler's tombstone have a cross on it?
Hitler celebrated Christmas? You bet.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/NaziChristmastree2.jpg
Hitler's "Brown Army" in a Catholic Church
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/BrownArmyChurch.jpg
Catholic Bishops say "Heil Hitler!"
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/NaziPriestsSaluteHitler.jpg
Hitler nominates Ludwig Muller for Reich Bishop. Why would an atheist
nominate a bishop?
Oh, and the Nazi Swastika? Yep, right next to the Catholic Cross. The
signs? They say, among other things, "German Christians."
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/DeutschenChristen2.jpg
Bishop Coch? Why would be meeting with an atheist?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/FriedrichCoch.jpg
Face it, duke. There is a whole bunch of evidence that Hitler was a
Christian.
Does that mean that Christianity is evil? Not at all. Hitler merely
practiced a distorted version of Christianity much like Osama bin Laden
practicing a distorted version of Islam today.
Oh, and why is OBL still free?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
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*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
Rob Duncan
"quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e8127862...@news.readfreenews.net...
Youre so ignorant its pathetic. What the fuck do you think the swastika or
the SS stands for? damn some people are stupid...
Rob
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> quibbler:
> > > > They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were
> > > > they the people running it. It's just that jews were free of
> > > > usury laws and therefore they periodically made up tales of
> > > > jewish avarice as an excuse to run them out of town and kill
> > > > them, thereby avoiding having to pay back loans.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > But this problem had long since been solved, when Christians got
> > > in on charging interest some centuries ago.
>
> quibbler:
> > Sure, but by that time there was a long and venerable history of
> > hating jews which had been codified into culture, particularly in
> > places like Germany
>
> So you suggest that they murdered Jews in the twentieth century due to
> reasons that happened in the sixteenth century?
In part, perhaps. You don't think that events in the 1500's can
influence the present?
>
> That seems improbable on its face, and the evidence contradicts it.
> The twentieth century murderers announced their reasons, and they had
> twentieth century reasons
Sure, people will cite contemporary reasons, but the cultural
predisposition of anti-semetism in Germany was not a 20th century
phenomena. It clearly was far older than that.
> quibbler:
> > There doesn't need to be a jewish economic conspiracy for neocons to
> > be in power. It's quite easy and common to try to dismiss
> > legitimate criticisms by conflating them with unrelated
> > "conspiracies".
>
> You are condemning imaginary anti semitism, and excusing real anti
> semitism.
Actually, I'm doing neither. Hitler's anti-semitism was clearly real
and I'm not weighing on the extent of present day anti-semitism.
> If you google for "neoconservative" and look for the first
> "neoconservative" identified in each article, three out of four of
> them will be real or alleged Jews,
That's just not sufficiently to conclude that this is an intentional
feature. There are also many liberal jews and many jews who are
lawyers, accountants, film producers and even the stereotypical bankers.
> > If you think that Mossad hasn't tried to conduct false flag
> > operations in the past to manipulate Europe and the US into doing
> > their bidding then I'd say you're being overly trusting.
>
> As soon as I start talking about the roots of twentieth century
> antisemitism, you start defending it.
>
> Even if twentieth century antisemitism was entirely justified by the
> terrible wickedness of those awful Jews^H^H^H^HZionists, nonetheless
> twentieth century anti semitism is twentieth century antisemitism.
> Sixteenth century antisemitism is dead as a doornail.
But a large reason that 20th century anti-semitism exists is because of
prejudices from centuries before. Of course, after WWI, people claimed
that Jewish moneymen backstabbed them. But that was only able to take
root because of already pervasive anti-semitism. Hitler very certainly
didn't invent anti-semitism. It was a venerable feature of German
politics.
>
> James Donald:
> > > Google for karen genocide.
>
> quibbler:
> > Yeah, that's about like saying that vietnam war was the fault of
> > buddhism since many people in the country are buddhist.
>
> People in Vietnam were murdered by communists, who were atheists
> motivated by an atheist ideology.
Atheism was not the reason for the conflict. In fact, as I'm sure you
well recall, puppet like Diem tried to impose the Catholicism of his
former colonial masters.
> They were murdered
Let's at least be accurate and say that this was a war. Yes, the
communists were brutal, but this was in response to overwhelming
American force that literally killed millions.
> for being
> bourgeois, or exploiting the masses, or having bourgeoise thoughts.
I know you don't appear to like this, but there were also centuries old
cultural rivalries between north and south.
> People in Burma are being murdered by Buddhists, motivated by a
> Buddhist ideology, murdered for not being Buddhist. You may argue
> that the murderers are not true Buddhists,
That's not the claim. If they call themselves Buddhists then that suits
me fine as far as another example of the violence wrought by organized
religion. I'm just trying to be fair by pointing out that there are
other factors, like Karen collaboration during WWII and a demand for
slave labor.
> but that is like arguing
> that the witch burners were not true Christians.
> > In the case of SLORC or myanmar, or whatever the hell they're
> > calling themselves, these guys are clearly dictators only paying
> > lipservice to religion.
>
> One could similarly claim that Ferdinand and Isabella were clearly
> dictators only paying lip service to religion.
I'm not using that to argue that they are not *true* believers. I'm
simply pointing out that they have other motivations above and beyond
religion. Yes, they are nominally religious and I don't mind including
them in the tally of theistic based genocide. But I realize that, in
all probability, religion was hardly the only motivating factor.
> Why do you make that
> excuse for Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims, when you will not accept it
> for Christians?
I'm not making an excuse for them. The salem witch trials were probably
motivated more by economics than by religion, for example, as was much
of the inquisition. I'm giving religions the benefit of the doubt by
pointing out these other motivating factors. It certainly applies to
Christians as much as any other religion.
Curly Surmudgeon
> --
> James A. Donald:
>> > To the extent that colonialism was driven by Christianity, it was
>> > motivated by the desire to end the slave trade, and for the most
>> > part did end the slave trade.
>
> Curly Surmudgeon
>> Wow, I've never heard this claim before.
>
> You are self enclosed behind your own little Berlin wall.
Your credibililty continues to deteriorate with such proclamations. My
primary residence is now in Latin America and I've spent much of the last
two decades there. Throwing provably false digs into a discussion
provides a distraction though, most people lose sight of your false claims.
> The major motive (or at least the major motive that the colonialists
> were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to end slavery.
Oh, that's rich! "Come, you darkies, we're here to help you. We have a
large, productive, environment for your to live upon called a
'plantataion.'" Do you make this shit up on the spur of hte moment?
Sure doesn't doesn't like you gave it much thought.
>> In fact local evidence here in
>> California seems contrary, google for Father Junipero Serra (I think
>> that's the spelling) who kept indigenous residents in chains to tend
>> his crops and properties.
>
> The major announced reason for that colonial effort, the colonization
> of the Americas by the Spaniards, was not Christianity but the reason
> announced by Cortez "I and my companions have a complaint-a disease of
> the heart, which only gold can cure."
As usual, you ignore evidence and make shit up. So what if one person
said something? Who do you think financed the conquest of the Americas?
The church bestowed it's blessing on some definable group which would
grant a religious monopoly, a continuing income stream. To maintain a
growing empire freeboots were hired to conquer primative lands and plunder
their resources for the annointed authority. Who would tithe to the
monopoly grantor.
See, you again try to twist the thread to avoid proving your bizarre
vision of history which events, evidence, disproves. Weird how an
you, an self-described anti-semite, can bend reality to support a
different superstition.
quibbler
robtakethi...@gobigwest.com says...
*You're* the ignorant one. Those are *occult* symbols, which are quite
similar to what we would call "new age" today. However, the term "new
age" did not yet exist.
> What the fuck do you think the swastika or
> the SS stands for? damn some people are stupid...
Yes, you are.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> >The major motive (or at least the major motive that the
> >colonialists were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to
> >end slavery.
zepp#221123...@nospamzeppscommentaries.com
> And a bang-up job they did of it too!
For the most part, they did indeed end slavery in Africa, where the
remaining areas where slavery is still practiced are for the most part
in those places least touched by colonialism.
Compare with communism, which similarly proposed to improve people at
gunpoint, and conspicuously failed.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
K6ULWqo74MnXDDnzN3ETndVdmPlgU96iaVfWt/pa
4/EWjNVpxDXdyHS4VuBTIUHJaQSRin3n/BjGB538c
James A. Donald
On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:54:47 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Yes, there are numerous examples of religiously based exploitation
> and enslavement of the locals. Because these people were non-xians
> it justified treating them as less than human. But all the xers
> like to talk about are those rare individuals like Las Casas who
> protested the evil treatment that was the norm from xian conquerors.
> BTW, you can just hear the xian whining now. They'll say, how can
> you blame xianity for the fact that people calling themselves xians
> did bad things? Well, it's the same standard they apply to muslims
> and other religions. These actions were taken by xian monarchs and
> their lieges.
Well no it is not the same standard: The crimes of Muslims are
undertaken for specifically religious purpose. They commit these
crimes in the expectation of getting their six pack of virgins in
heaven. The crimes committed by christian kings were for the most part
unrelated to their nominal religion. The argument you make for SLORC
and today's anti semites is a lot more applicable to the crimes of
Christian kings that it is for SLORC, and not at all applicable to the
crimes of Muslims.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
e2rl5EkNE6hMuNktnPxZrMeRoAOqJqWGL6UT8SBT
4GiM4TZMH49BEACne39kUA74lKGy2Qm6yUy64WtMO
Curly Surmudgeon
Which goes to prove that they're _all_ crazymotherfuckers.
Every single last one of them contribute to the problem engaging in
bigotry against other cults. The Iraqi invasion of 2003 is the direct
responsibility of the evangelists (invariably Republican) in the United
States.
Where are these Bush voters? Why aren't they enlisting in droves to die
in Iraq? Where are they now that the true horror of their crimes come to
light. President Bush, his cabinet, and all members of Congress who voted
to permit this crime, and hte Patriot Act, have violated thier oath of
office, they're all traitors and must be dealt with severely.
brique
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:lbge12958vlgaa5f4...@4ax.com...
> --
> James A. Donald:
> > >The major motive (or at least the major motive that the
> > >colonialists were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to
> > >end slavery.
>
> zepp#221123...@nospamzeppscommentaries.com
> > And a bang-up job they did of it too!
>
> For the most part, they did indeed end slavery in Africa, where the
> remaining areas where slavery is still practiced are for the most part
> in those places least touched by colonialism.
>
> Compare with communism, which similarly proposed to improve people at
> gunpoint, and conspicuously failed.
>
Most success was gained in La-La-Land, where members of The Congregation of
St Ayn flocked in the 20C. Their missionary zeal was notable and their lack
of shame even more so, but they did their work and now La-La-Land is free of
slavery.
brique
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:1142358182.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> --
> quibbler:
> > > > They didn't think that the jews invented capitalism, nor were
> > > > they the people running it. It's just that jews were free of
> > > > usury laws and therefore they periodically made up tales of
> > > > jewish avarice as an excuse to run them out of town and kill
> > > > them, thereby avoiding having to pay back loans.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > But this problem had long since been solved, when Christians got
> > > in on charging interest some centuries ago.
>
> quibbler:
> > Sure, but by that time there was a long and venerable history of
> > hating jews which had been codified into culture, particularly in
> > places like Germany
>
> So you suggest that they murdered Jews in the twentieth century due to
> reasons that happened in the sixteenth century?
Probably for the same reason they still conduct rituals based on events that
occurred two thousand years ago as well.
Actually, the 'collective guilt' of the Jewish race for the Death of the
(alleged) Christ was only formally absolved in the 1960's. at the Vatican II
Conference. Until then it was a standard piece of Catholic Church doctrine,
same Virgin Births, Papal Infallibility and all the other foolishness.
>
> That seems improbable on its face, and the evidence contradicts it.
> The twentieth century murderers announced their reasons, and they had
> twentieth century reasons - very similar to the reasons for today's
> anti Americanism, except that killing Americans is apt to have
> considerably more serious consequences than killing Jews.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > Google for "Bilderberg" to read up on the details of the evil
> > > Jewish conspiracy that supposedly runs the world's economy, with
> > > the neoconservatives supposedly pulling the strings on the
> > > American presidency
>
> quibbler:
> > There doesn't need to be a jewish economic conspiracy for neocons to
> > be in power. It's quite easy and common to try to dismiss
> > legitimate criticisms by conflating them with unrelated
> > "conspiracies".
Having messed up, again.. James is trying to move the debate onto another
subject altogether. Today he is choosing 'anti-semitism as related to
charges of being a neo-conservative'.
What this has to do with the thread topic of 'Nazi's: Christian or Athiest?'
is clear in James mind, well, as clear as most things are. You could ask him
to explain, but be ready for a long screed about socialism and mass-murder.
Or the effect of gamma-rays on man-in-the-moon marigolds.
>
> You are condemning imaginary anti semitism, and excusing real anti
> semitism. If you google for "neoconservative" and look for the first
> "neoconservative" identified in each article, three out of four of
> them will be real or alleged Jews, and the fourth one will be widely
> depicted (though not necessarily in the article pulled up by google)
> as an empty headed pawn controlled by sinister forces.
James re-iterates the theory of 'google' proofs. Oddly, when one produces
'googles' which counter his theory-of-the-day, suddenly google is less
omniscient.
I love his qualifier concerning the fourth non-real or-alleged jewish
neo-conservative who, even though not mentioned as such, is still depicted
as a pawn controlled by sinister forces. What sinister forces are these,
James? International Communism?
>
> > For example, without invoking Jewish bankers at all, it's clear that
> > Israel was a US ally during the cold war and it's also clear that
> > Israel does try to influence American policy to take care of
> > security threats in the middle east. In a lot of cases, Israel gets
> > far more out of such things than we do.
>
> That is true, and it is also true that Hollywood is mostly run by
> Jews, and that a lot of Europeans are very angry that they so
> frequently find themselves watching stuff created in Hollywood - a lot
> more angry about such things than they are about "christ killing".
> The fact that there is a molehill under the supposed mountain does not
> make it any the less anti semitism.
This is a classic, James.... Europeans watch non-hollywood movies because
they are anti-semites....classic.
>
> > If you think that Mossad hasn't tried to conduct false flag
> > operations in the past to manipulate Europe and the US into doing
> > their bidding then I'd say you're being overly trusting.
>
> As soon as I start talking about the roots of twentieth century
> antisemitism, you start defending it.
>
> Even if twentieth century antisemitism was entirely justified by the
> terrible wickedness of those awful Jews^H^H^H^HZionists, nonetheless
> twentieth century anti semitism is twentieth century antisemitism.
> Sixteenth century antisemitism is dead as a doornail.
Well, sixteenth century anti-semites would be as dead as a dorrnail, it is
true.
shrikeback
> jam...@echeque.com says...
>> --
>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:14:08 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> > "Hitler's Table Talk" has been debunked
>> > http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
>>
>> Which tells us " It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against
>> the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission"
>>
>> No it is not well known - it is a lie. Nothing happened at that level
>> except by Hitler's will.
>
> First, these were private notes which were not made public until after
> Hitler's death. Secondly, there are only small snippets which are
> allegedly critical of xianity, and these small snippets could have been
> inserted, especially since they disagree with other statements known to
> be made by hitler. Bormann admitted to editing the notes and he was not
> the only person, after the war to participate in translating and
> redacting.
>> for its roots were in socialism,
>
> Actually, it had zero to do with socialism. The nazi regime was both
> imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth and rank.
What socialist regime isn't imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth
and rank. Check out the disparity of wealth between a gulag-ite slave,
and the nomenklatura. In fact, socialists are obsessed with wealth. Envy
is just greed with a human face.
> Neither of
> these principles is consistent with socialism.
Socialism is inconsistent with itself. And by a previously shown result,
if you assume a contradiction, you can reason your way to literally any
conclusion.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > So you suggest that they murdered Jews in the twentieth century
> > due to reasons that happened in the sixteenth century?
quibbler
> In part, perhaps. You don't think that events in the 1500's can
> influence the present?
People don't kill people over stuff that happened hundreds of years
ago. Plus the twentieth century antisemites gave their reasons, and
are still giving their reasons loud and clear today. Why do you
insist on disbelieving them?
> Sure, people will cite contemporary reasons, but the cultural
> predisposition of anti-semetism in Germany was not a 20th century
> phenomena. It clearly was far older than that.
Before 1655 Jews were forbidden in England. Then in 1655, Jews were
allowed in with no legal disabilities, and they have had no legal
disabilities ever since.
People, then and now, hate the Jews for the reasons explained in
"World on Fire" - pretty much the same reasons that they hate
Americans, and the same reason Indonesians hate Chinese.
quibbler:
> > > If you think that Mossad hasn't tried to conduct false flag
> > > operations in the past to manipulate Europe and the US into
> > > doing their bidding then I'd say you're being overly trusting.
James A. Donald:
> > As soon as I start talking about the roots of twentieth century
> > antisemitism, you start defending it.
> >
> > Even if twentieth century antisemitism was entirely justified by
> > the terrible wickedness of those awful Jews^H^H^H^HZionists,
> > nonetheless twentieth century anti semitism is twentieth century
> > antisemitism. Sixteenth century antisemitism is dead as a
> > doornail.
quibbler:
> But a large reason that 20th century anti-semitism exists is because
> of prejudices from centuries before.
Today's typical antisemite does not know s**t about what happened
centuries before. He thinks all that stuff is boring dead white
males.
> Of course, after WWI, people claimed
> that Jewish moneymen backstabbed them. But that was only able to
> take root because of already pervasive anti-semitism.
No, it was able to take root because Jews were disproportionately
successful. Back then in the Wiemar republic they were pissed because
they found themselves watching plays written by Jews. Today, they are
pissed because they find themselves watching movies made in hollywood
- which they blame on evil americans and/or evil Jews according to
taste.
See "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic
Hatred and Global Instability", which generalizes the phenomenon.
Any identifiable group whose economic success is disproportionate to
their political and military dominance, gets this reaction.
If you have a society where people are free to create wealth, where
wealth is not connected to plunder, you are going to hate those most
successful in creating wealth.
Observe that anti-Americanism shares many structural characteristics
with anti-Semitism: Americans are excessively religious; they are
excessively materialistic. They are vulgar money-grubbers; they are
vulgar spenders. They hate culture; they are pushy in promoting
their own culture. They are aggressive and reckless; they are
cowardly. They are stupid; they are exceptionally cunning. They build
soulless megalopolises; they are rural imbeciles. As with
anti-Semitism, this litany of contradictory complaints is fleshed out
with demonic caricatures of particular individuals like George W.
Bush. Just as14th-century Jews were responsible for the Black Death,
Americans cause all the ills of today’s world, starting with global
warming.
quibbler:
> > > In the case of SLORC or myanmar, or whatever the hell they're
> > > calling themselves, these guys are clearly dictators only paying
> > > lipservice to religion.
James A. Donald:
> > One could similarly claim that Ferdinand and Isabella were clearly
> > dictators only paying lip service to religion.
quibbler:
> I'm not using that to argue that they are not *true* believers. I'm
> simply pointing out that they have other motivations above and
> beyond religion.
And so did Ferdinand and Isabellah. You have one standard for
Christians, and another for their enemies.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
WNwyGiUPxI1MU22jc3Gk6Nw8gS4dimz5UU646/uo
4cR5Ddbf4L1IDuEaprC2vGPY7g3jRrMwNqYI1FHiW
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > for [nazism's] roots were in socialism,
quibbler
> Actually, it had zero to do with socialism. The nazi regime was
> both imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth and rank.
> Neither of these principles is consistent with socialism.
Yet Cuba is extremely stratified by wealth and rank, and all the
socialists before 1992 loved it, and after 1992 most of them still
love it, despite the fact that it partially ditched socialism, while
retaining extreme stratification.
Further, before Hitler broke his alliance with Stalin, most socialists
loved existent nazism and loved existent communism both, for example
George Bernard Shaw and Jack London.
Socialists and socialism is not hostile to extremes of wealth and
power that are based on political power, on conquest, destruction and
coercion. It is hostile to wealth that is not derived from coercion
and authority.
> > paganism, and new ageism.
> You mean occultism. Certainly "new age" didn't exist at the time.
I mean a revived paganism and the familiar mishmash of resuscitated
nonsense that we today see in new ageism, regardless of what they
called it back then. People thinking they are both witches and
feminists, and advocating strange diets, obsolete gods ignorantly
reinterpreted, and peculiar footwear, that sort of stuff.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
T90cTar792Xk4x2R6K4EVYpQ8LIbOTsEhDQHwS6a
4/nwFpo+o5vlC6qLOAMSJQa7QPkxBfCb8e3hHm6Tm
John Cartmell
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote this:
> Today's typical antisemite does not know s**t about what happened
> centuries before. He thinks all that stuff is boring dead white
> males.
but missed the answer to his unspoken question:
> > Of course, after WWI, people claimed that Jewish moneymen backstabbed
> > them. But that was only able to take root because of already pervasive
> > anti-semitism.
The active anti-semite may not know but may still find the wider community
less abhorrent of his actions than should be the case.
--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
quibbler
hewpi...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "quibbler" <quibb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1e8127862...@news.readfreenews.net...
> > In article <jf3c12dgt1sr3nmjk...@4ax.com>,
> > jam...@echeque.com says...
> >> --
> >> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:14:08 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > "Hitler's Table Talk" has been debunked
> >> > http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
> >>
> >> Which tells us " It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against
> >> the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission"
> >>
> >> No it is not well known - it is a lie. Nothing happened at that level
> >> except by Hitler's will.
> >
> > First, these were private notes which were not made public until after
> > Hitler's death. Secondly, there are only small snippets which are
> > allegedly critical of xianity, and these small snippets could have been
> > inserted, especially since they disagree with other statements known to
> > be made by hitler. Bormann admitted to editing the notes and he was not
> > the only person, after the war to participate in translating and
> > redacting.
> >> for its roots were in socialism,
> >
> > Actually, it had zero to do with socialism. The nazi regime was both
> > imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth and rank.
>
> What socialist regime isn't imperialistic
Norway, Sweden, Finland, Holland, Denmark, Belgium, Canada, etc, etc.
> and extremely stratified by wealth
While some regimes have been stratified by wealth, that was not a
principle upon which they were founded. They were committed far more
egalitarian and progressive principles. It is not clear that Hitler ever
committed to egalitarianism and his only view of redistribution of
property was to take what he wanted and distribute to the elite.
> and rank. Check out the disparity of wealth between a gulag-ite slave,
> and the nomenklatura.
Comparing a prisoner in any country to a free citizen will always result
in a disparity. But I didn't just say that there were some disparities.
I said there was extreme stratification. As a point of fact, even the
soviet union, the stratification was not as extreme is it is in many
capitalist countries.
> In fact, socialists are obsessed with wealth.
You base this claim upon what? Even if they were obsessed, how could
"greed is good" capitalists criticize them for that?
> Envy
> is just greed with a human face.
Again, how can capitalism criticize people for envy. The profit motive
and "keeping up with the Joneses" is the cornerstone of our consumer
economy.
>
> > Neither of
> > these principles is consistent with socialism.
>
> Socialism is inconsistent with itself.
You didn't actually show the inconsistency. You alleged greed. Yet if
they truly were obsessed with greed, why would they provide universal
health care or public housing or free education? Wouldn't they be able
to hoard more money for themselves if they didn't provide these goods and
services to their citizens. Now, I will grant that they dont' alway do a
great job of providing these services, but it's not clear why they would
provide them at all, if they are as avaricious as you claim.
> And by a previously shown result,
Unfortunately, you didn't show this result. You simply claimed it.
There are undoubtedly problems with socialism. But you seem a little bit
too desperate to allege these defects without serious consideration. In
reality, most economies are "mixed" rather than being 100% socialist or
100% capitalists.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> James A. Donald:
> > > for [nazism's] roots were in socialism,
>
> quibbler
> > Actually, it had zero to do with socialism. The nazi regime was
> > both imperialistic and extremely stratified by wealth and rank.
> > Neither of these principles is consistent with socialism.
>
> Yet Cuba is extremely stratified by wealth
Not as much as before the revolution. People weren't getting education
or health care before the communist revolution. In any event, the US
embargo has never permitted the Cuban economy to function independently,
so we can't tell whether these alleged stratifications would have
resulted if the country had more trade opportunities and resources
available.
> and rank, and all the
> socialists
Cuba was a communist state, which is quite different than what
"socialism" has meant in the west. Yes, the USSR had the word
"socialist" in their name, but it was substantially different than what
was meant by "socialism" in the west. The same applied to Cuba.
> before 1992 loved it,
There were actually criticisms of Castro's heavy-handedness from the very
beginning.
> and after 1992 most of them still
> love it, despite the fact that it partially ditched socialism, while
> retaining extreme stratification.
Again, are you honestly trying to claim that they would have been any
better off functioning as a third-world casino and bordello for mobsters
a few wealthy americans.
>
> Further, before Hitler broke his alliance with Stalin, most socialists
> loved existent nazism and loved existent communism
Get real. The alliance was a complete shock to most people, since the
regimes were so completely different. People didn't know a lot about
Hitler or Stalin at the time. However, Hitler was known as an hystrical
anti-communist. That's how he rose to power. And few socialists could
have admired the way that Hitler brutalized and outlawed labor and trade
unions.
> both, for example
> George Bernard Shaw and Jack London.
Again, it was probably hard for people at the time to filter through all
the propaganda and learn much about the reality of either Hitler or
Stalin. It's quite easy for us, from the perspective of history, to
scoff at how supposedly "short-sighted" some of these folks might have
seemed.
>
> Socialists and socialism is not hostile to extremes of wealth and
> power
Then what, if anything do you believe that socialism stands for. If
individuals are not permitted to own production mechanisms then clearly
this is got to limit some of the wealth found in capitalist countries.
Of course, when the government owns commanding heights of the economy,
then these are effectively turned over to bureaucrats. However, at least
in principle, these bureaucrats do not "own" the resources they
adminstrate and can be removed. OTOH, Rupert Murdoch's wealth could not
so easily be checked.
> I mean a revived paganism and the familiar mishmash of resuscitated
> nonsense that we today see in new ageism, regardless of what they
> called it back then. People thinking they are both witches and
> feminists, and advocating strange diets, obsolete gods ignorantly
> reinterpreted, and peculiar footwear, that sort of stuff.
Yeah, ummmm....you don't find that kind of nonsense intimidating or
anything, do you?
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> James A. Donald:
> > > So you suggest that they murdered Jews in the twentieth century
> > > due to reasons that happened in the sixteenth century?
>
> quibbler
> > In part, perhaps. You don't think that events in the 1500's can
> > influence the present?
>
> People don't kill people over stuff that happened hundreds of years
> ago.
That's ridiculous. People all over the world fight about vendettas that
are hundreds of years old.
> Plus the twentieth century antisemites gave their reasons, and
> are still giving their reasons loud and clear today. Why do you
> insist on disbelieving them?
I don't disbelieve them. I'm just saying that they probably wouldn't
have even thought to scapegoat jews, as opposed to other convenient
groups, if a culture of anti-semitism hadn't already existed.
>
> > Sure, people will cite contemporary reasons, but the cultural
> > predisposition of anti-semetism in Germany was not a 20th century
> > phenomena. It clearly was far older than that.
>
> Before 1655 Jews were forbidden in England. Then in 1655, Jews were
> allowed in with no legal disabilities, and they have had no legal
> disabilities ever since.
It would be the height of naivete to think that no de facto liabilities
existed once laws went into effect.
> > quibbler:
> > But a large reason that 20th century anti-semitism exists is because
> > of prejudices from centuries before.
>
> Today's typical antisemite does not know s**t about what happened
> centuries before.
It doesn't matter if they know where their attitudes explicitly come
from. All that matters is that they actually did inherit those views due
to an historical process.
Now, the reality is that people do know at least some things about
history. They know that they are xians and that historically there has
always been conflict between xians and jews.
> > Of course, after WWI, people claimed
> > that Jewish moneymen backstabbed them. But that was only able to
> > take root because of already pervasive anti-semitism.
>
> No, it was able to take root because Jews were disproportionately
> successful. Back then in the Wiemar republic they were pissed because
> they found themselves watching plays written by Jews. Today, they are
> pissed because they find themselves watching movies made in hollywood
> - which they blame on evil americans and/or evil Jews according to
> taste.
Why would they even care about jewish movie producers, directors or
writers without a previous historical context of anti-semitism. Few
hollywood jews are able to completely "jew up their movies", because they
still have to sell them at a box office that is dominated by xians.
> Any identifiable group whose economic success is disproportionate to
> their political and military dominance, gets this reaction.
Generally, that's probably true. However, many people rightfully point
out that zionists cum neocons are levelling a fake charge of anti-
semitism as a means of shutting down debate about their policies. In
reality, opposition to israeli and neocon agendas need not have anything
to do with actual anti-semitism.
> If you have a society where people are free to create wealth, where
> wealth is not connected to plunder, you are going to hate those most
> successful in creating wealth.
Actually, it is simply an inevitable feature of wealth that it gravitates
to people who more devoted and less restrained about the means they use
to acquire it. Eventually, wealth always ends up being accumulated in
the hands of fewer and fewer people who are good at playing the
appropriate games, but aren't necessarily good at utilizing the resources
they acquire. Hoarding naturally leads to resentment and even in pure
economic terms is inefficient.
>
> Observe that anti-Americanism shares many structural characteristics
> with anti-Semitism: Americans are excessively religious; they are
> excessively materialistic. They are vulgar money-grubbers; they are
> vulgar spenders. They hate culture; they are pushy in promoting
> their own culture. They are aggressive and reckless; they are
> cowardly. They are stupid; they are exceptionally cunning. They build
> soulless megalopolises; they are rural imbeciles. As with
> anti-Semitism, this litany of contradictory complaints is fleshed out
> with demonic caricatures of particular individuals like George W.
> Bush.
So George is just getting a bad rap then? He's not just some privileged,
silver-spoon brat? Do you honestly think that Bush could have made it to
where he was without family connections and wealth behind him?
> quibbler:
> > I'm not using that to argue that they are not *true* believers. I'm
> > simply pointing out that they have other motivations above and
> > beyond religion.
>
> And so did Ferdinand and Isabellah. You have one standard for
> Christians, and another for their enemies.
Seriously, pay attention to what I'm saying. I do not have a different
standard. I recognize that christians often do things for other motives
and I will not necessarily blame anyone who happens to be christian, if
religion seemed to play little or no role in the matter. For the
purposes of keeping score, I am just as happy to say that nominal
buddhists commit atrocities as do nominal christians.
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:54:47 -0700, quibbler <quibb...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Yes, there are numerous examples of religiously based exploitation
> > and enslavement of the locals. Because these people were non-xians
> > it justified treating them as less than human. But all the xers
> > like to talk about are those rare individuals like Las Casas who
> > protested the evil treatment that was the norm from xian conquerors.
> > BTW, you can just hear the xian whining now. They'll say, how can
> > you blame xianity for the fact that people calling themselves xians
> > did bad things? Well, it's the same standard they apply to muslims
> > and other religions. These actions were taken by xian monarchs and
> > their lieges.
>
> Well no it is not the same standard: The crimes of Muslims are
> undertaken for specifically religious purpose.
Not really. A lot of the attacks have much more political than religious
purposes. The Mujahadeen of the 1980's was exploited to fight a US proxy
war against the soviets. Even, Lawrence of Arabia exploited the concept
of jihad to fool naive arabs into fighting on his side. Even in
the case of the USS Cole attack, the purpose was more military
and political than religious. Religion was exploited in the mix, because
it's easier to conduct suicide attacks with the aid of religion. That is
not meant to minimize the role of religion in any way. In any event, all
I was saying is that xians claims islam is evil whenever a muslim does
something bad, but when xians get caught doing the same things, they cry
foul and say xianity wasn't the relevant factor. I think that a
religious worldview will alway be relevant to an extent, but I
acknowledge that there could be more compelling, non-religious motives
upon which religious people might act.
> They commit these
> crimes in the expectation of getting their six pack of virgins in
> heaven. The crimes committed by christian kings were for the most part
> unrelated to their nominal religion.
They exploited religion, just like muslim clerics. They promised
absolution of sin and heavenly reward, just like muslims promise. It's
simply that muslim heaven uses more ridiculous metaphors than the xian
candyland afterlife.
> The argument you make for SLORC
> and today's anti semites is a lot more applicable to the crimes of
> Christian kings that it is for SLORC, and not at all applicable to the
> crimes of Muslims.
Whatever. The idea that muslim leadership is somehow more sincerely
religious than xian leadership is a bit hard to buy.
quibbler
jam...@echeque.com says...
> --
> James A. Donald:
> > >The major motive (or at least the major motive that the
> > >colonialists were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to
> > >end slavery.
>
> zepp#221123...@nospamzeppscommentaries.com
> > And a bang-up job they did of it too!
>
> For the most part, they did indeed end slavery in Africa,
Actually, no. They didn't call it slavery and Brits didn't see it
happening in their own lily white country. But plenty of africans had
lives of de facto slavery that was far worse than even share cropping in
the southern US.
nfol...@gmail.com
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:50:01 +1000, James A. Donald wrote:
> > The major motive (or at least the major motive that the colonialists
> > were willing to announce) for colonizing Africa was to end slavery.
>
> Oh, that's rich! "Come, you darkies, we're here to help you. We have a
> large, productive, environment for your to live upon called a
> 'plantataion.'" Do you make this shit up on the spur of hte moment?
> Sure doesn't doesn't like you gave it much thought.
He is referring to imperialism in Africa, not the colonization of the
New World. The Conference of Berlin, the 1885 agreement by which the
European powers partitioned Africa among their empires, had an
explicitly anti-slavery agenda, among other goals that would allegedly
be liberating and civilizing, calling on all the imperial powers "to
help in suppressing slavery, and especially the Slave Trade",
particularly in the Congo basin, declaring "that these territories may
not serve as a market or means of transit for the trade in slaves, of
whatever race they may be," and that "each of the Powers binds itself
to employ all the means at its disposal for putting an end to this
trade and for punishing those who engage in it."
[...]
- Nate
skyeyes
> If you go looking for a genocide largely
> motivated by Christianity, you are going to have to go back several
> hundred years. You want a genocide motivated by Islam or Buddhism, or
> fairly severe Hindu repression: read today's news. Plus, of course,
> Christians do not routinely amputate a woman's clitoris
Clitoridectomy is not specifically a Muslim practice and some Muslims
do not do it. The practice originated in Africa, and some Africans who
are *not* Muslin perform it.
Just sayin'.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding