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Calvin Ramsey
May 21, 2012, 8:27:22 PM5/21/12
to
It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
divine revelation. No one can
reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
their sins upon any general
principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
within our grasp. What the
infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures; or
what the exigencies of a
government embracing the whole universe and continuing throughout
eternal ages, may demand, it
is not for such worms of the dust as we are, to determine. If we
believe the Bible to be the Word of
God, all we have to do is to ascertain what it teaches on this subject,
and humbly submit.
1. It is an almost invincible presumption that the Bible does teach the
unending punishment of the
finally impenitent, that all Christian churches have so understood it.
There is no other way in which
this unanimity of judgment can be accounted for. To refer it to some
philosophical speculation which
had gained ascendancy in the Church, such as the dualism of good and
evil as two coeternal and
necessary principles, or the Platonic doctrine of the inherent
immortality and indestructible nature of
the human soul, would be to assign a cause altogether inadequate to the
effect. Much less can this
general consent be accounted for on the ground that the doctrine in
question is congenial to the
human mind, and is believed for its own sake, without any adequate
support from Scripture. The
reverse is the case. It is a doctrine which the natural heart revolts
from and struggles against, and to
which it submits only under stress of authority. The Church believes
the doctrine because it must
believe it, or renounce faith in the Bible and give up all the hopes
founded upon its promises. There is
no doctrine in support of which this general consent can be pleaded,
which can be shown not to be
taught in the Bible. The doctrines of the Trinity, the divinity of
Christ, the personality of the Holy
Spirit, the sinfulness of men, and others of a like kind, are admitted
to be Scriptural even by those
who do not believe them. The argument now urged, does not suppose the
Church to be infallible; nor
that the authority of the Church is the ground of faith; it only
assumes that what the great body of
the competent readers of a plain book take to be its meaning, must be
its meaning.
It is unreasonable to account for the general reception of the doctrine
in question on the ground of
church authority. It was universally received before the external
Church arrogated to itself the right
to dictate to the people of God what they must believe and it continued
to be received when, at the
Reformation, the authority of the Church was repudiated, and the
Scriptures were declared to be the
only infallible rule of faith and practice. Any man, therefore, assumes
a fearful responsibility who sets
himself in opposition to the faith of the Church universal.
2. It is admitted that the doctrine of the perpetuity of the future
punishment of the wicked was held
by the Jews under the old dispensation, and at the time of Christ.
Neither our Lord nor his Apostles
ever contradicted that doctrine. They reproved the false teachers of
their day for doctrinal errors on
many points, but they never corrected their faith in this doctrine.
They never teach anything
inconsistent with it. Their recorded instructions give no ground for a
belief either of the final
restoration of all rational creatures to the favour of God, or of the
annihilation of the wicked. The
passages which are appealed to by Universalists in support of their
doctrine admit of a natural and
simple interpretation in harmony with the general teaching of the Bible
on this subject. For example,
in Ephesians i. 10, it is said to be the purpose of God to bring into
one harmonious whole (or, as it is
expressed in Colossians i. 20, to reconcile unto Himself) all things,
i. e., all, who are in heaven and who
are on earth. The question is, who, or what are the all, who are to be
reconciled unto God? This
question must be answered by a reference to the nature of the thing
spoken of, and to the analogy of
Scripture. It cannot mean absolutely “all things,” the whole universe,
including sun, moon, and stars,
for they are not susceptible of reconciliation to God. For the same
reason it cannot mean all sensitive
creatures, including irrational animals. Nor can it mean all rational
creatures, including the holy
angels; for they do not need reconciliation. Nor can it mean all fallen
rational creatures, for it is
expressly taught, Hebrews ii. 16, that Christ did not come to redeem
fallen angels. Nor can it mean all
men, for the Bible teaches elsewhere that all men are not reconciled to
God; and Scripture cannot
contradict Scripture; for that would be for God to contradict Himself.
The “all” intended is the “all”
spoken of in the context; the whole body of the people of God; all the
objects of redemption.
For those of you with an interest in learning about Augustinianism and
Predestination as well as other
fascinating topics, you will find lots of articles to read or listen to
on your mp3 player, while at home or
at work, from these websites:
*See especially* : http://www.the-highway.com/Calvinism_Meeter.html
http://monergism.com/
http://monergism.com/mp3/
http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/whatismonergism2.html
http://calvinistcorner.com/predestination/
http://ccel.org/
http://reformed.org/calvinism/
http://reformedreader.org/
http://carm.org/predestination-and-election
http://the-highway.com/predestination_index.html
http://albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/verses_concerning_predestination.htm
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/main.html
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
http://nicenecouncil.com/media/
http://the-highway.com/calvinism.html
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/
http://scienceagainstevolution.org/
http://leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/
http://wordofhisgrace.org/science.html
http://godandscience.org/
http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/
http://spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/classic.htm
http://wabashcenter.wabash.edu/resources/result_browse.aspx?topic=675&pid=650
http://puritansermons.com/toc.htm
http://grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/
divine revelation. No one can
reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
their sins upon any general
principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
within our grasp. What the
infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures; or
what the exigencies of a
government embracing the whole universe and continuing throughout
eternal ages, may demand, it
is not for such worms of the dust as we are, to determine. If we
believe the Bible to be the Word of
God, all we have to do is to ascertain what it teaches on this subject,
and humbly submit.
1. It is an almost invincible presumption that the Bible does teach the
unending punishment of the
finally impenitent, that all Christian churches have so understood it.
There is no other way in which
this unanimity of judgment can be accounted for. To refer it to some
philosophical speculation which
had gained ascendancy in the Church, such as the dualism of good and
evil as two coeternal and
necessary principles, or the Platonic doctrine of the inherent
immortality and indestructible nature of
the human soul, would be to assign a cause altogether inadequate to the
effect. Much less can this
general consent be accounted for on the ground that the doctrine in
question is congenial to the
human mind, and is believed for its own sake, without any adequate
support from Scripture. The
reverse is the case. It is a doctrine which the natural heart revolts
from and struggles against, and to
which it submits only under stress of authority. The Church believes
the doctrine because it must
believe it, or renounce faith in the Bible and give up all the hopes
founded upon its promises. There is
no doctrine in support of which this general consent can be pleaded,
which can be shown not to be
taught in the Bible. The doctrines of the Trinity, the divinity of
Christ, the personality of the Holy
Spirit, the sinfulness of men, and others of a like kind, are admitted
to be Scriptural even by those
who do not believe them. The argument now urged, does not suppose the
Church to be infallible; nor
that the authority of the Church is the ground of faith; it only
assumes that what the great body of
the competent readers of a plain book take to be its meaning, must be
its meaning.
It is unreasonable to account for the general reception of the doctrine
in question on the ground of
church authority. It was universally received before the external
Church arrogated to itself the right
to dictate to the people of God what they must believe and it continued
to be received when, at the
Reformation, the authority of the Church was repudiated, and the
Scriptures were declared to be the
only infallible rule of faith and practice. Any man, therefore, assumes
a fearful responsibility who sets
himself in opposition to the faith of the Church universal.
2. It is admitted that the doctrine of the perpetuity of the future
punishment of the wicked was held
by the Jews under the old dispensation, and at the time of Christ.
Neither our Lord nor his Apostles
ever contradicted that doctrine. They reproved the false teachers of
their day for doctrinal errors on
many points, but they never corrected their faith in this doctrine.
They never teach anything
inconsistent with it. Their recorded instructions give no ground for a
belief either of the final
restoration of all rational creatures to the favour of God, or of the
annihilation of the wicked. The
passages which are appealed to by Universalists in support of their
doctrine admit of a natural and
simple interpretation in harmony with the general teaching of the Bible
on this subject. For example,
in Ephesians i. 10, it is said to be the purpose of God to bring into
one harmonious whole (or, as it is
expressed in Colossians i. 20, to reconcile unto Himself) all things,
i. e., all, who are in heaven and who
are on earth. The question is, who, or what are the all, who are to be
reconciled unto God? This
question must be answered by a reference to the nature of the thing
spoken of, and to the analogy of
Scripture. It cannot mean absolutely “all things,” the whole universe,
including sun, moon, and stars,
for they are not susceptible of reconciliation to God. For the same
reason it cannot mean all sensitive
creatures, including irrational animals. Nor can it mean all rational
creatures, including the holy
angels; for they do not need reconciliation. Nor can it mean all fallen
rational creatures, for it is
expressly taught, Hebrews ii. 16, that Christ did not come to redeem
fallen angels. Nor can it mean all
men, for the Bible teaches elsewhere that all men are not reconciled to
God; and Scripture cannot
contradict Scripture; for that would be for God to contradict Himself.
The “all” intended is the “all”
spoken of in the context; the whole body of the people of God; all the
objects of redemption.
For those of you with an interest in learning about Augustinianism and
Predestination as well as other
fascinating topics, you will find lots of articles to read or listen to
on your mp3 player, while at home or
at work, from these websites:
*See especially* : http://www.the-highway.com/Calvinism_Meeter.html
http://monergism.com/
http://monergism.com/mp3/
http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/whatismonergism2.html
http://calvinistcorner.com/predestination/
http://ccel.org/
http://reformed.org/calvinism/
http://reformedreader.org/
http://carm.org/predestination-and-election
http://the-highway.com/predestination_index.html
http://albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/verses_concerning_predestination.htm
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/main.html
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
http://nicenecouncil.com/media/
http://the-highway.com/calvinism.html
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/
http://scienceagainstevolution.org/
http://leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/
http://wordofhisgrace.org/science.html
http://godandscience.org/
http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/
http://spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/classic.htm
http://wabashcenter.wabash.edu/resources/result_browse.aspx?topic=675&pid=650
http://puritansermons.com/toc.htm
http://grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/
Neil Kelsey
May 21, 2012, 9:08:31 PM5/21/12
to
On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> divine revelation. No one can
> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> their sins upon any general
> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> within our grasp. What the
> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good." I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> divine revelation. No one can
> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> their sins upon any general
> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> within our grasp. What the
> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> or
> what the exigencies of a
> government embracing the whole universe and continuing throughout
> eternal ages, may demand, it
> is not for such worms of the dust as we are, to determine.
> If we
> believe the Bible to be the Word of
> God, all we have to do is to ascertain what it teaches on this subject,
> and humbly submit.
Calvin Ramsey
May 21, 2012, 10:00:26 PM5/21/12
to
On 5/21/2012 9:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>> divine revelation. No one can
>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>> their sins upon any general
>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>> within our grasp. What the
>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>
> I disagree.... [clip]
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>> divine revelation. No one can
>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>> their sins upon any general
>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>> within our grasp. What the
>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>
So what? Who are you?
Billions of other people, who know more than you ever will, disagree
with you.
>> or
>> what the exigencies of a
>> government embracing the whole universe and continuing throughout
>> eternal ages, may demand, it
>> is not for such worms of the dust as we are, to determine.
>
So what? You're just one person.
Billions of other people, who know more than you ever will, disagree
with you.
>> If we
>> believe the Bible to be the Word of
>> God, all we have to do is to ascertain what it teaches on this subject,
>> and humbly submit.
to be punished, or not.
Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
is, is a good indication of an
unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
Neil Kelsey
May 21, 2012, 10:27:16 PM5/21/12
to
On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/21/2012 9:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >
> On 5/21/2012 9:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >
> > I disagree. I think humans have determined that torture is wrong and immoral, and this determination is reflected in the laws we've made that ban the use of torture
>
>
> So what? Who are you?
I'm an atheist who think torture is wrong, no matter who is employing it, whether they're real or imaginary.
> Billions of other people, who know more than you ever will, disagree
> with you.
> >> or
> >> what the exigencies of a
> >> government embracing the whole universe and continuing throughout
> >> eternal ages, may demand, it
> >> is not for such worms of the dust as we are, to determine.
> >
> > I disagree. I think humans have determined that torture is wrong and immoral, and this determination is reflected in the laws we've made that ban the use of torture.
> So what? You're just one person.
Argumentum ad populum fallacies are valid arguments that the use of torture is moral or good.
> Billions of other people, who know more than you ever will, disagree
> with you.
> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> is, is a good indication of an
> unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
I seem to make you very angry - do you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity?
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 1:07:51 AM5/22/12
to
anything, then
it's called punishment.
Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 1:52:22 AM5/22/12
to
On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >
> > I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> > various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> > argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>
> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >
> > I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> > various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> > argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>
> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
> If you deserve
> anything, then
> it's called punishment.
> Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 2:40:04 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
>>>
>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
>
> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
He doesn't. Everyone in Hell deserves to be there, so they're being
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
>>>
>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
>
> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
punished.
>
>> If you deserve
>> anything, then
>> it's called punishment.
>
> And if I'm being punished by being roasted in a lake of fiery sulfur (as the Bible says),
> then that punishment is in the form of torture, which is neither good nor benevolent.
not torture undeservedly anyone. He only punishes those who deserve
punishment.
>> Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
>
> Nope, and I certainly don't think that punishment by torture is the act of a benevolent or infinitely good being, as you claim.
> Therefore even if I thought your God existed (which I don't), I don't think he's worthy of worship. He's a psychopathic monster.
No one is ever or will ever be punished by torture in Hell.
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 9:00:27 AM5/22/12
to
On Monday, May 21, 2012 11:40:04 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >>>
> >>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> >>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> >> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> >>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
> >>
> >> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
> >
> > Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
>
> He doesn't.
Your inability to recognize being burned in a fiery lake of sulfur for eternity as torture is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >>>
> >>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> >>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> >> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> >>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
> >>
> >> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
> >
> > Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
>
> He doesn't.
> Everyone in Hell deserves to be there, so they're being
> punished.
> >
> >> If you deserve
> >> anything, then
> >> it's called punishment.
> >
> > And if I'm being punished by being roasted in a lake of fiery sulfur (as the Bible says),
> > then that punishment is in the form of torture, which is neither good nor benevolent.
>
> You're only revealing how very little you know about who God is.
> He does
> not torture undeservedly anyone.
> He only punishes those who deserve
> punishment.
> >> Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
> >
> > Nope, and I certainly don't think that punishment by torture is the act of a benevolent or infinitely good being, as you claim.
> > Therefore even if I thought your God existed (which I don't), I don't think he's worthy of worship. He's a psychopathic monster.
>
> Again, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
> Punishment is deserved.
> No one is ever or will ever be punished by torture in Hell.
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 9:17:11 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 9:00 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 11:40:04 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
>>>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
>>>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
>>>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
>>>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
>>>
>>> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
>>
>> He doesn't.
>
> Your inability to recognize being burned in a fiery lake of sulfur for eternity as torture is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
> On Monday, May 21, 2012 11:40:04 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
>>>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
>>>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
>>>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
>>>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
>>>
>>> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
>>
>> He doesn't.
>
> Your inability to recognize being burned in a fiery lake of sulfur for eternity as torture is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
Get used to it.
>
>> Everyone in Hell deserves to be there, so they're being
>> punished.
>
> With torture, which makes God a torturer.
Got it?
>>>
>>>> If you deserve
>>>> anything, then
>>>> it's called punishment.
>>>
>>> And if I'm being punished by being roasted in a lake of fiery sulfur (as the Bible says),
>>> then that punishment is in the form of torture, which is neither good nor benevolent.
>>
>> You're only revealing how very little you know about who God is.
>
> I know enough to realize he isn't worthy of worship.
from Hell.
If he chooses not to, then you'll continue on the way you are now.
See how that works?
>
>> He does
>> not torture undeservedly anyone.
>
> No one deserves to be tortured. It is psychopathic to think they do.
>
>> He only punishes those who deserve
>> punishment.
>
> And he punishes them by torture, which makes your God the worst psychopathic torturer in the history of the universe.
fact, you probably have no choice in
the matter. You are being deluded into believing a lie.
"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe
what is false, in order that all
may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in
unrighteousness."
--2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (ESV)
>
>>>> Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
>>>
>>> Nope, and I certainly don't think that punishment by torture is the act of a benevolent or infinitely good being, as you claim.
>>> Therefore even if I thought your God existed (which I don't), I don't think he's worthy of worship. He's a psychopathic monster.
>>
>> Again, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
>
> That's what I've been saying, therefore you agree that I'm not wrong.
>
>> Punishment is deserved.
>> No one is ever or will ever be punished by torture in Hell.
>
> I've been referring to the God in the Bible (who clearly tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity), not your redefined version of him. But I'm curious, if you don't believe the Bible, what form of punishment do you think those who are condemned to Hell have to endure?
>
anyone.
I'll save you the trouble. You can't do it. It's not there. You're
lying, just like your father.
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's
desires. He was a murderer from
the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he lies, he
speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
--John 8:44 (ESV)
Swine like you deserve to be punished forever in Hell.
I suggest you get used to it.
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 9:54:18 AM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 6:17:11 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 9:00 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 11:40:04 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >>>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> >>>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> >>>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> >>>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
> >>>
> >>> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
> >>
> >> He doesn't.
> >
> > Your inability to recognize being burned in a fiery lake of sulfur for eternity as torture is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
Punishment in the form of torture. I think torture is wrong, don't you?
> On 5/22/2012 9:00 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Monday, May 21, 2012 11:40:04 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 1:52 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 10:07:51 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/21/2012 10:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 7:00:26 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Your inability to realize that torture is not deserved, but punishment
> >>>>>> is, is a good indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I haven't argued whether or not anyone deserves to be punished for the
> >>>>> various activities that gets them sent to Hell, like unbelief, lying, cowardice,
> >>>> > homosexuality, etc. You can browbeat me all you want, but I've only
> >>>>> argued that God is not worthy of worship since he engages in the act of torture.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, you're wrong. No one deserves to be tortured.
> >>>
> >>> Then why do you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity?
> >>
> >> He doesn't.
> >
> > Your inability to recognize being burned in a fiery lake of sulfur for eternity as torture is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
> Get used to it.
I just can't. I will always be astonished that I'm living in a time in which billions of people believe that billions of other people deserve to be tortured for disagreeing with them, and that some that are conscious of this (e.g. you) have the nerve to defend this belief.
> >> Everyone in Hell deserves to be there, so they're being
> >> punished.
> >
> > With torture, which makes God a torturer.
>
> No, you're wrong. It will be punishment for those deserving punishment.
> Got it?
I get that you're indifferent to the use of torture - you're even defending it - which is a trait you share in common with psychopaths. I think psychology is a valid explanation for religious belief since theists have none.
> >>>
> >>>> If you deserve
> >>>> anything, then
> >>>> it's called punishment.
> >>>
> >>> And if I'm being punished by being roasted in a lake of fiery sulfur (as the Bible says),
> >>> then that punishment is in the form of torture, which is neither good nor benevolent.
> >>
> >> You're only revealing how very little you know about who God is.
> >
> > I know enough to realize he isn't worthy of worship.
>
> You can only worship him if he chooses to show you mercy and save you
> from Hell.
> If he chooses not to, then you'll continue on the way you are now.
> See how that works?
Well, before you said I was going to be punished, and now you say I'm going to continue on as I am now. I realize you've just redefined Christianity, but I like your version (the one where I live a good eternal life without God) much better.
> >> He does
> >> not torture undeservedly anyone.
> >
> > No one deserves to be tortured. It is psychopathic to think they do.
>
> And no one is tortured in Hell. Learn how to read.
> >> He only punishes those who deserve
> >> punishment.
> >
> > And he punishes them by torture, which makes your God the worst psychopathic torturer in the history of the universe.
>
> No, you're wrong.
> But you can believe that lie, if you want to.
> In fact, you probably have no choice in
> the matter. You are being deluded into believing a lie.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelations 21:8)
There's more, but this quote is sufficient.
> "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe
> what is false, in order that all
> may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in
> unrighteousness."
> --2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (ESV)
> >>>> Do you think you deserve to be punished forever in Hell?
> >>>
> >>> Nope, and I certainly don't think that punishment by torture is the act of a benevolent or infinitely good being, as you claim.
> >>> Therefore even if I thought your God existed (which I don't), I don't think he's worthy of worship. He's a psychopathic monster.
> >>
> >> Again, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
> >
> > That's what I've been saying, therefore you agree that I'm not wrong.
>
> Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they are receiving.
Do you think we should abolish the laws against torture?
> >> Punishment is deserved.
> >> No one is ever or will ever be punished by torture in Hell.
> >
> > I've been referring to the God in the Bible (who clearly tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity), not your redefined version of him. But I'm curious, if you don't believe the Bible, what form of punishment do you think those who are condemned to Hell have to endure?
> >
>
> Show me one, just one, single reference where it says that God tortures
> anyone.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelations 21:8)
There are other references, but I'd rather have you address just one than get sidetracked with your redefinitions of your Bible.
> I'll save you the trouble. You can't do it. It's not there. You're
> lying, just like your father.
> "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's
> desires. He was a murderer from
> the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no
> truth in him. When he lies, he
> speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
> --John 8:44 (ESV)
> Swine like you deserve to be punished forever in Hell.
> I suggest you get used to it.
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 10:34:10 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 9:54 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
>
> Punishment in the form of torture.
No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
>
> Punishment in the form of torture.
Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they receive.
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 10:48:02 AM5/22/12
to
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 11:02:13 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 10:48 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:34:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 9:54 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
>>>
>>> Punishment in the form of torture.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
>>
>> Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they receive.
>
> Special Pleading fallacies are not valid arguments that if God burns people in a fiery lake of sulfur then it isn't torture. It is.
No, you're wrong. It's not torture. Torture is undeserved.
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:34:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 9:54 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
>>>
>>> Punishment in the form of torture.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
>>
>> Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they receive.
>
> Special Pleading fallacies are not valid arguments that if God burns people in a fiery lake of sulfur then it isn't torture. It is.
The word you're looking for is "torment", as in the torment of the full
wrath of God.
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his
forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath,
poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented
with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the
presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and
ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast
and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
--Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV)
“And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire
and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever.”
--Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 11:30:52 AM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:02:13 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 10:48 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:34:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 9:54 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
> >>>
> >>> Punishment in the form of torture.
> >>
> >> No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
> >>
> >> Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they receive.
> >
> > Special Pleading fallacies are not valid arguments that if God burns people in a fiery lake of sulfur then it isn't torture. It is.
>
> No, you're wrong. It's not torture.
No, you're wrong. Torture is torture, and whether you think it is deserved or not is irrelevant. Your inability to grasp this point is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
> On 5/22/2012 10:48 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:34:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 9:54 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> You will deserve to be there. Therefore, it will be punishment, not torture.
> >>>
> >>> Punishment in the form of torture.
> >>
> >> No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved.
> >>
> >> Everyone in Hell will deserve the punishment they receive.
> >
> > Special Pleading fallacies are not valid arguments that if God burns people in a fiery lake of sulfur then it isn't torture. It is.
>
> No, you're wrong. It's not torture.
For the record, torture has been criminalized in all civil societies.
> Torture is undeserved.
I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
> The word you're looking for is "torment", as in the torment of the full
> wrath of God.
> “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his
> forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath,
> poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented
> with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the
> presence of the Lamb.
> And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and
> ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast
> and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
> --Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV)
> “And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire
> and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be
> tormented day and night forever and ever.”
> --Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 11:38:29 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 11:44:20 AM5/22/12
to
I'm curious, have you ever been diagnosed as a sociopath/psychopath?
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 11:55:31 AM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 11:44 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
>>
>> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
>
> If God exists then he is the biggest psychopath in the history of the universe.
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
>>
>> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
>
Well, since God really hates sin, he's going to seem like a psychopathic
monster to you when he
unleashes his full wrath and anger, without holding anything back, on
you, as if you were the only one
in Hell, the only object of his wrath and anger, day and night, forever
and ever. You're going to wish
you'd never been born. It will seem like torture to you. Extreme
torture. But you will deserve every
second of it, so it won't really be torture. It will be horrific torment
and anguish and pain, for ever and
ever. And you'll somehow know that you deserve it.
I strongly suggest you get used to the idea.
For me, he's my merciful redeemer, for having chosen me to spend
eternity in unspeakable joy and
happiness and bliss, without end, in a new earth, the way it was
originally meant to be. I can't wait.
sbalneav
May 22, 2012, 12:07:51 PM5/22/12
to
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 12:27:51 PM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 11:44 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
> >>
> >> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
> >
> > If God exists then he is the biggest psychopath in the history of the universe.
>
> Well, since God really hates sin,
Not that much, since torture is a sin (to say the least).
> On 5/22/2012 11:44 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
> >>
> >> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
> >
> > If God exists then he is the biggest psychopath in the history of the universe.
>
> Well, since God really hates sin,
> he's going to seem like a psychopathic
> monster to you when he
> unleashes his full wrath and anger,
> without holding anything back, on
> you, as if you were the only one
> in Hell, the only object of his wrath and anger, day and night, forever
> and ever. You're going to wish
> you'd never been born. It will seem like torture to you.
> Extreme
> torture.
Exactly my point. The God you worship engages in the act of torture at monumental proportions, and is therefore not worthy of worship. That you cannot grasp this idea is a trait you share in common with psychopaths and sociopaths. Have you ever been diagnosed as either?
> But you will deserve every
> second of it, so it won't really be torture.
> It will be horrific torment
> and anguish and pain, for ever and
> ever. And you'll somehow know that you deserve it.
> I strongly suggest you get used to the idea.
> For me, he's my merciful redeemer,
> for having chosen me to spend
> eternity in unspeakable joy and
> happiness and bliss, without end, in a new earth, the way it was
> originally meant to be.
> I can't wait.
Then why don't you commit suicide?
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 12:53:30 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie, since you
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
obviously derive a bizarre sense
of fulfillment in doing so. Besides that, you're being deluded into
believing it, so there's nothing anyone
can do to prevent you from believing it.
Like I wrote before, your inability to realize that torture is not
deserved, but punishment is, is a good
indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind. I should have
added "reprobate" to the list.
I'm just glad that you don't really and truly believe there is an actual
"torture ring" led by an actual
"psychotic monster", because that would certainly make you look rather
insane, don't you think?
But instead, it's just a case you not fully and correctly understanding,
and being able to interpret, Holy
Scripture. You really think you do. But there are billions of people
(and I'm one of them) who know
that you don't. We also know that there's nothing anyone can do to help
you understand it correctly.
You are predestined by God to believe in a lie. And you willfully choose
to believe in that lie. That is
what makes you deserving of the tormenting punishment you will
experience in Hell forever.
You'll see what I'm talking about later. Don't try understanding it now.
You can't do it.
"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not
hear them is that you are not
of God."
--John 8:47 (ESV)
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for
they are folly to him, and he is
not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
--1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe
what is false, in order that all
may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in
unrighteousness."
--2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (ESV)
perishing. In their case the god of
this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from
seeing the light of the gospel of
the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
--2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (ESV)
"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he
wills. You will say to me
then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But
who are you, O man, to answer
back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made
me like this?' Has the potter
no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for
honorable use and another for
dishonorable use?"
--Romans 9:18-21 (ESV)
Olrik
May 22, 2012, 1:33:13 PM5/22/12
to
Neil destroyed all your arguments, so you snip nearly all his response,
and start anew with the stupid statement that eternal torture by your
«god» is OK by you.
Little dishonest psycho Calvie...
Andy W
May 22, 2012, 6:16:05 PM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 5:53 pm, Calvin Ramsey <calram...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> You are predestined by God to believe in a lie. And you willfully choose
> to believe in that lie. That is
> what makes you deserving of the tormenting punishment you will
> experience in Hell forever.
>
So here I was, wondering what kind of heinous evil you would have to
>
> You are predestined by God to believe in a lie. And you willfully choose
> to believe in that lie. That is
> what makes you deserving of the tormenting punishment you will
> experience in Hell forever.
>
commit to deserve such a hideous punishment as an eternity of
suffering and torture, and now you say that crime is not rape, or
murder, or genocide, but believing a lie told by an omnipotent deity
who forced you to believe it.
And what is the purpose of this eternal torture? It can't be to make
the victims into better people and make sure they know not to do it
again, because they never, ever get out. No, apparently its purpose is
to act as entertainment for those who didn't get thrown in the pit.
Wow. You are seriously fucked up. Really. You need competent
professional psychiatric help before you harm someone.
Andy
Andy W
May 22, 2012, 6:19:59 PM5/22/12
to
On May 22, 4:55 pm, Calvin Ramsey <calram...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 11:44 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> >>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
>
> >> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
>
> > If God exists then he is the biggest psychopath in the history of the universe.
>
> Well, since God really hates sin, he's going to seem like a psychopathic
> monster to you when he
> unleashes his full wrath and anger, without holding anything back, on
> you, as if you were the only one
> in Hell, the only object of his wrath and anger, day and night, forever
> and ever. You're going to wish
> you'd never been born. It will seem like torture to you. Extreme
> torture. But you will deserve every
> second of it, so it won't really be torture. It will be horrific torment
> and anguish and pain, for ever and
> ever. And you'll somehow know that you deserve it.
What could anyone possibly do to deserve that?
> On 5/22/2012 11:44 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:38:29 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 11:30 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> >>> I agree. That means the God you worship is a psychopathic monster.
>
> >> Is he a big psychopathic monster, or just a little one?
>
> > If God exists then he is the biggest psychopath in the history of the universe.
>
> Well, since God really hates sin, he's going to seem like a psychopathic
> monster to you when he
> unleashes his full wrath and anger, without holding anything back, on
> you, as if you were the only one
> in Hell, the only object of his wrath and anger, day and night, forever
> and ever. You're going to wish
> you'd never been born. It will seem like torture to you. Extreme
> torture. But you will deserve every
> second of it, so it won't really be torture. It will be horrific torment
> and anguish and pain, for ever and
> ever. And you'll somehow know that you deserve it.
>
> I strongly suggest you get used to the idea.
>
> For me, he's my merciful redeemer, for having chosen me to spend
> eternity in unspeakable joy and
> happiness and bliss, without end, in a new earth, the way it was
> originally meant to be. I can't wait.
why you think the promises of a psychopathic liar like your God are of
any value. I expect it's just terror.
Andy
Neil Kelsey
May 22, 2012, 8:13:40 PM5/22/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> > I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>
> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
It's not a lie. It says right in the Bible that JesusGod it a torturer of monumental proportions.
> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> > I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>
> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
If there is intelligent life on other planets, do you think he tortures them, too?
> since you
> obviously derive a bizarre sense
> of fulfillment in doing so.
> Besides that, you're being deluded into
> believing it,
> so there's nothing anyone
> can do to prevent you from believing it.
> Like I wrote before, your inability to realize that torture is not
> deserved, but punishment is, is a good
> indication of an unsound, desultory and shallow mind.
> I should have
> added "reprobate" to the list.
> I'm just glad that you don't really and truly believe there is an actual
> "torture ring"
> led by an actual
> "psychotic monster",
> because that would certainly make you look rather
> insane, don't you think?
> But instead, it's just a case you not fully and correctly understanding,
> and being able to interpret, Holy
> Scripture.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
The problem here is that you don't want to admit you worship a psychopathic torturer, so you "interpret" the Bible into saying something it doesn't in order for you not to look like a psychopath too. It's not working.
> You really think you do.
> But there are billions of people
> (and I'm one of them) who know
> that you don't.
> We also know that there's nothing anyone can do to help
> you understand it correctly.
> You are predestined by God to believe in a lie.
> And you willfully choose
> to believe in that lie.
> That is
> what makes you deserving of the tormenting punishment you will
> experience in Hell forever.
4th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath? If you have that would explain a lot.
> You'll see what I'm talking about later. Don't try understanding it now.
> You can't do it.
> "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not
> hear them is that you are not
> of God."
>
> --John 8:47 (ESV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuLBzWTeK6I
- Leonard McCoy, Star Trek
> "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for
> they are folly to him, and he is
> not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
> --1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
> "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion,
> so that they may believe
> what is false,
* snip remainder for irrelevancy *
Calvin Ramsey
May 22, 2012, 11:59:35 PM5/22/12
to
On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>
>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>
> It's not a lie. [clip]
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>
>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>
Yes it is.
Jesus declares "no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the
Father." (John 6:65) In the same passage Jesus declares: "all that the
Father gives to Me will come to Me." (John 6:37) In both verses the
phrase "come to Me" simply means "believe in Me" and so, taken together,
Jesus is stating that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it,
and all to whom God grants it will believe.
"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not
hear them is that you are not of God."
--John 8:47 (ESV)
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for
they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because
they are spiritually discerned."
--1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because
they are spiritually discerned."
--1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)
Neil Kelsey
May 23, 2012, 12:18:45 AM5/23/12
to
On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>
> >> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >
> > It's not a lie. [clip]
>
> Yes it is.
No it isn't. [clip]
> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>
> >> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >
> > It's not a lie. [clip]
>
> Yes it is.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture, and at a monumental scale (most of humanity, since most are "unbelievers"). Your God is a psychopathic monster. I'm not a liar; you're simply in denial.
duke
May 23, 2012, 8:24:05 AM5/23/12
to
On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>> divine revelation. No one can
>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>> their sins upon any general
>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>> within our grasp. What the
>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
>, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
God doesn't torture anybody.
When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
lets you go. If it's torture, it's what you declared you wanted to find out.
We, otoh, tried to warn you, but you knew better. Enjoy the flames when you
arrive, if they exist. We don't know. But I'm working to the other direction
which is the only direction that input does exist.
duke - American American
*****
2012 - end of an error
Vote Republican in 2012
*****
wrote:
>On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>> divine revelation. No one can
>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>> their sins upon any general
>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>> within our grasp. What the
>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
>, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
lets you go. If it's torture, it's what you declared you wanted to find out.
We, otoh, tried to warn you, but you knew better. Enjoy the flames when you
arrive, if they exist. We don't know. But I'm working to the other direction
which is the only direction that input does exist.
duke - American American
*****
2012 - end of an error
Vote Republican in 2012
*****
Neil Kelsey
May 23, 2012, 8:56:42 AM5/23/12
to
On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:24:05 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>
> >I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> > all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> > I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>
> God doesn't torture anybody.
Oh yay. Yet another Christian who thinks that roasting people in a lake of fiery sulfur isn't torture.
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>
> >I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> > all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> > I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>
> God doesn't torture anybody.
torture - noun (from dictionary.com)
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
Invest in a dictionary.
> When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
> lets you go.
* "fine" to the extent that God is a figment of your imagination
> If it's torture, it's what you declared you wanted to find out.
> We, otoh, tried to warn you, but you knew better.
> Enjoy the flames when you
> arrive, if they exist.
> We don't know.
Even though you presume to speak for all those Christians (like Calvin Ramsay) who do know, in so many ways it's even worse of you to threaten people with being burned alive when you have doubts. I can't think of a more selfish act.
> But I'm working to the other direction
> which is the only direction that input does exist.
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 12:18:10 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>
>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>
>> Yes it is.
>
> No it isn't. [clip]
Yes, it is.
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>
>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>
>> Yes it is.
>
> No it isn't. [clip]
> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>
> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
You are redefining God. My Bible says that God will send you to be
*punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
*punished*. No one deserves to be tortured.
See how that works?
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 12:54:49 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/23/2012 8:56 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:24:05 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey<neil.m...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>>>> divine revelation. No one can
>>>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>>>> their sins upon any general
>>>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>>>> within our grasp. What the
>>>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>>
>>> I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
>>> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
>>> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
>>> , ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>>
>> God doesn't torture anybody.
>
> Oh yay. Yet another Christian who thinks that roasting people in a lake of fiery sulfur isn't torture.
>
> torture - noun (from dictionary.com)
>
> 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
>
That definition applies only to humans.
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:24:05 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey<neil.m...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
>>>> divine revelation. No one can
>>>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
>>>> their sins upon any general
>>>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
>>>> within our grasp. What the
>>>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
>>
>>> I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
>>> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
>>> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
>>> , ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>>
>> God doesn't torture anybody.
>
> Oh yay. Yet another Christian who thinks that roasting people in a lake of fiery sulfur isn't torture.
>
> torture - noun (from dictionary.com)
>
> 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
>
God has his own set of rules and definitions that he alone goes by. Get
used to it.
>> When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
>> lets you go.
>
Redefining God again. That's all you can do.
You can't accept his definitions. You have to make up your own.
The word "punish" or "punished" or "punishment" is used dozens of times
in the Bible to describe
what you will experience in Hell.
The word "torture" or "tortured" is never used.
God never has and never will torture anyone.
Torture is undeserved.
You will be *punished* because you will deserve to be punished.
Get used to it. That definition is not going to change just because you
want it to.
Got it?
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life.”
--Matthew 25:45-46
“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave
themselves up to sexual
immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer
the punishment of eternal
fire.”
--Jude 1:7
> * "fine" to the extent that God is a figment of your imagination
In that case, your sentence just above would be invalid, and a lie.
Which would make you into a liar.
See how that works?
And, we can also ignore anything else you keep regurgitating over and
over and over again,
throwing it up against the wall, and hoping it sticks, because you want
others to believe the
same lie that you believe.
You're a perfect example of a swine prepared for destruction, a vessel
made for dishonorable use.
"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he
wills. You will say to me
then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 1:32:52 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:54:49 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 8:56 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:24:05 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey<neil.m...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >>>> divine revelation. No one can
> >>>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >>>> their sins upon any general
> >>>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >>>> within our grasp. What the
> >>>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >>
> >>> I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> >>> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> >>> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >>> , ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
> >>
> >> God doesn't torture anybody.
> >
> > Oh yay. Yet another Christian who thinks that roasting people in a lake of fiery sulfur isn't torture.
> >
> > torture - noun (from dictionary.com)
> >
> > 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
> >
>
> That definition applies only to humans.
I'm sorry, I don't recognize your authority to redefine language. The dictionary makes no such distinction.
> On 5/23/2012 8:56 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:24:05 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey<neil.m...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >>>> divine revelation. No one can
> >>>> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >>>> their sins upon any general
> >>>> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >>>> within our grasp. What the
> >>>> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >>
> >>> I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> >>> all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> >>> I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >>> , ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
> >>
> >> God doesn't torture anybody.
> >
> > Oh yay. Yet another Christian who thinks that roasting people in a lake of fiery sulfur isn't torture.
> >
> > torture - noun (from dictionary.com)
> >
> > 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
> >
>
> That definition applies only to humans.
> God has his own set of rules and definitions that he alone goes by.
> Get used to it.
I'm already used to Christians redefining words, believe me.
> >> When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
> >> lets you go.
> >
> > He tortures you, which makes him a torturer and you a willing participant.
>
> Redefining God again.
> That's all you can do.
> You can't accept his definitions.
> You have to make up your own.
"...the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelation 21:8)
> The word "punish" or "punished" or "punishment" is used dozens of times
> in the Bible to describe
> what you will experience in Hell.
> The word "torture" or "tortured" is never used.
> God never has and never will torture anyone.
6th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> Torture is undeserved.
I agree, that's why I would refuse to worship your God even if you did have any valid evidence that he exists.
> You will be *punished* because you will deserve to be punished.
> Get used to it.
I am already very used to Christians redefining God, and redefining words. I've come to expect it.
> That definition is not going to change just because you
> want it to.
> Got it?
I get that you're in denial.
> “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
> eternal life.”
> --Matthew 25:45-46
> “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave
> themselves up to sexual
> immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer
> the punishment of eternal
> fire.”
> --Jude 1:7
> > * "fine" to the extent that God is a figment of your imagination
>
> Contradicting yourself again.
> In that case, your sentence just above would be invalid, and a lie.
> Which would make you into a liar.
>
> See how that works?
> And, we can also ignore anything else you keep regurgitating over and
> over and over again,
> throwing it up against the wall, and hoping it sticks, because you want
> others to believe the
> same lie that you believe.
> You're a perfect example of a swine prepared for destruction, a vessel
> made for dishonorable use.
> "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he
> wills. You will say to me
> then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But
> *who are you*, O man, to answer
> back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made
> me like this?' Has the potter
> no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for
> honorable use and another for
> dishonorable use?"
sbalneav
May 24, 2012, 1:39:37 PM5/24/12
to
Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>
>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>
>>> Yes it is.
>>
>> No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>> the idolaters and all liars ???they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>
>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>
>>> Yes it is.
>>
>> No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>
>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God. My Bible says that God will send you to be
> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
> *punished*. No one deserves to be tortured.
>
> See how that works?
If God is the author of Sin, and God predestines some people for Hell,
>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God. My Bible says that God will send you to be
> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
> *punished*. No one deserves to be tortured.
>
> See how that works?
why is this punishment?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punish
1
a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation
b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in
retribution or retaliation
How does one offend or violate against a God who predestined you to perform
actions? How does one commit an offence when the offence has been
pre-ordained?
This only makes sense if one considers that the God may be malevolent, and
enjoys punishing people.
So, Niel's right on the money.
Also, because you're a feckless coward, you still haven't supplied any sort of
rational explaination as to why punishments for finite crimes need to be
infinite. The best you've managed to come up with is parrot some twaddle about
how God "infinitely" hates sin, so therefore, the punishment must be infinite
as well. As I've pointed out, this is a non-sequitur. Especially when
some of the "sins" are decidedly minor, by any rational standard.
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 1:02:53 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >>>
> >>> It's not a lie. [clip]
> >>
> >> Yes it is.
> >
> > No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
> >
> > Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God.
No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >>>
> >>> It's not a lie. [clip]
> >>
> >> Yes it is.
> >
> > No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
> >
> > Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God.
> My Bible says that God will send you to be
> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
> *punished*.
> No one deserves to be tortured.
> See how that works?
Yes, I'm already familiar with the concept of "denial."
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 8:36:48 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/24/2012 1:02 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is.
>>>
>>> No it isn't. [clip]
>>
>> Yes, it is.
>>
>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>>>
>>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>>
>> [clip]
>>
>> You are redefining God.
>
> No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
No, you're wrong. The Bible clearly defines him as one who punishes sin.
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Yes it is.
>>>
>>> No it isn't. [clip]
>>
>> Yes, it is.
>>
>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>>>
>>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>>
>> [clip]
>>
>> You are redefining God.
>
> No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
>
>> My Bible says that God will send you to be
>> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
>> *punished*.
>
> And the Bible says that God's punishment takes the form of torture.
>
>> No one deserves to be tortured.
>
And that's where you're wrong. You will deserve to be punished.
>> See how that works?
>
> Yes, I'm already familiar with the concept of "denial."
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 8:40:09 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/24/2012 1:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> Nope. It says right in the Bible that God tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity.
No, you're wrong. That's the definition you want to give to the word
> Nope. It says right in the Bible that God tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity.
"punish".
You want to redefine what God does.
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 8:52:09 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:36:48 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 1:02 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes it is.
> >>>
> >>> No it isn't. [clip]
> >>
> >> Yes, it is.
> >>
> >>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> >>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
> >>>
> >>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
> >>
> >> [clip]
> >>
> >> You are redefining God.
> >
> > No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
>
> No, you're wrong. The Bible clearly defines him as one who punishes sin.
By using torture. So I'm right.
> On 5/24/2012 1:02 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes it is.
> >>>
> >>> No it isn't. [clip]
> >>
> >> Yes, it is.
> >>
> >>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> >>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
> >>>
> >>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
> >>
> >> [clip]
> >>
> >> You are redefining God.
> >
> > No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
>
> No, you're wrong. The Bible clearly defines him as one who punishes sin.
> >> My Bible says that God will send you to be
> >> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
> >> *punished*.
> >
> > And the Bible says that God's punishment takes the form of torture.
>
> No, you're wrong. Torture is undeserved. Punishment is deserved.
> >> No one deserves to be tortured.
> >
> > I know, that's why I think your God is a psychopathic monster.
>
> And that's where you're wrong. You will deserve to be punished.
7th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> >> See how that works?
> >
> > Yes, I'm already familiar with the concept of "denial."
>
> Yes. I see how familiar you are with denial with your every post.
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 9:04:57 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:40:09 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 1:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > Nope. It says right in the Bible that God tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity.
>
> No, you're wrong. That's the definition you want to give to the word
> "punish".
"Punishment" can take many forms, including five minute time outs, standing in the corner, going to your room to think about it, repeatedly writing a phrase on a chalkboard, probation, suspension of a driver's license, 1-2 years with time served, life imprisonment, solitary confinement, and yes, torture. That you cannot grasp this concept is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
> On 5/24/2012 1:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > Nope. It says right in the Bible that God tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity.
>
> No, you're wrong. That's the definition you want to give to the word
> "punish".
8th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> You want to redefine what God does.
tor·ture - noun (from dictionary.com)
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
But keep arguing otherwise. All non-psychopaths who read what you're saying ought to be horrified and repulsed. If any of them are Christians experiencing doubts about their religion, you are no doubt pushing them towards atheism. You're unintentionally doing the world a big service. Thanks.
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 9:07:18 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/24/2012 8:52 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:36:48 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 1:02 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it isn't. [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it is.
>>>>
>>>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>>>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>>>>>
>>>>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>>>>
>>>> [clip]
>>>>
>>>> You are redefining God.
>>>
>>> No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. The Bible clearly defines him as one who punishes sin.
>
> By using torture. So I'm right.
>
But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:36:48 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 1:02 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:18:10 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it isn't. [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it is.
>>>>
>>>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>>>> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>>>>>
>>>>> Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>>>>
>>>> [clip]
>>>>
>>>> You are redefining God.
>>>
>>> No I'm not. The Bible clearly defines him as a torturer.
>>
>> No, you're wrong. The Bible clearly defines him as one who punishes sin.
>
> By using torture. So I'm right.
>
believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
So you're not really saying anything against God. He's just a figment of
your imagination.
I don't really care what you think about me. That's just a result of the
noetic effects of your unregenerate sinful nature.
And the children of Satan will always make up lies about the children of
God.
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's
desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do
with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he
speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
--John 8:44 (ESV)
See how that works? So, you lose, big time, because of your unbelief.
And it's only the beginning.....
<smirk>
Calvin Ramsey
May 24, 2012, 9:10:25 PM5/24/12
to
On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
of is only a figment of your imagination.
Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
Mike Lovell
May 24, 2012, 9:17:58 PM5/24/12
to
On 2012-05-25, Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> [...]
> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
Nice one Neil, you've nailed him :-)
He can't avoid the fact it's torture so he's trying a new trick.
It hasn't worked, we all know he's just been beaten down, badly!
<smirk>
--
Jews, Christians & Muslims
The content of your posts will show how much you
really believe God is looking over your shoulder
panamfloyd@hotmail.com rade
May 24, 2012, 9:23:08 PM5/24/12
to
On May 24, 12:18 pm, Calvin Ramsey <calram...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>
> >>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>
> >>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>
> >> Yes it is.
>
> > No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>
> > Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God.
Such a thing is often required, since many of the people who believe
> On 5/23/2012 12:18 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:59:35 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/22/2012 8:13 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:53:30 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/22/2012 12:27 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:55:31 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >>>>> I would find it impossible to be joyful, happy, and blissful knowing that I am part of a torture ring.
>
> >>>> I'm going to have to allow you to continue believing that lie,
>
> >>> It's not a lie. [clip]
>
> >> Yes it is.
>
> > No it isn't. [clip]
>
> Yes, it is.
>
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur." (Revelations 21:8)
>
> > Redefine God all you want, your Bible clearly states that your God engages in the act of torture
>
> [clip]
>
> You are redefining God.
in them (gods) cannot seem to be able to define them for
themselves..yourself included, BTW.
> My Bible says that God will send you to be
> *punished*, day and night, forever, because you deserve to be
> *punished*. No one deserves to be tortured.
>
> See how that works?
"punishment" is appropriate for the "crime", and torture. Same ol'
infinite "punishment" for a finite crime that you morons have been
posting into alt.atheism for 20yrs or more.
It's a common failure by theists posting up their insipid Witch Doctor
Shit over here, so don't hate yourself anymore than you already do for
it.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://www.rationalist.com.au/archive/73/p20-27_paul_ar73_web.pdf
panamfloyd@hotmail.com rade
May 24, 2012, 9:59:34 PM5/24/12
to
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/28090e21c1faaf3d
> So you're not really saying anything against God. He's just a figment of
> your imagination.
"figments" for the sake of argument. Pity you're too dishonest to do
the same..
> I don't really care what you think about me. That's just a result of the
> noetic effects of your unregenerate sinful nature.
receive the mental health care you need..but I fully admit that such a
thing is no longer possible in the US.
> And the children of Satan will always make up lies about the children of
> God.
snip witch doctor shit...
> See how that works?
Certainly. You cannot defend your pathetic mythology against any
rational dismissal of it, so you just presuppose that it actually
describes reality. And you continue to ignore any bit of evidence that
demonstrates otherwise. Willful ignorance, or just plain stupidity.
Again, without the diagnosis of a mental health professional, it's
pretty difficult to tell the difference.
snip idle threats...
Yap
May 24, 2012, 11:04:00 PM5/24/12
to
On May 23, 8:24 pm, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com>
in a human life.
It merely blunt every human's ability to contribute to a better world,
for our next generation.
It therefore impedes the progress of the society and the world at
large.
Why should atheist allow that?
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 18:08:31 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> > all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> > I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>
> God doesn't torture anybody.
>
> When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
> lets you go. If it's torture, it's what you declared you wanted to find out.
> We, otoh, tried to warn you, but you knew better. Enjoy the flames when you
> arrive, if they exist. We don't know. But I'm working to the other direction
> which is the only direction that input does exist.
Your insurance and play safe tactic doesn't benefit you a single bit
>
> >On Monday, May 21, 2012 5:27:22 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> It is obvious that this is a question which can be decided only by
> >> divine revelation. No one can
> >> reasonably presume to decide how long the wicked are to suffer for
> >> their sins upon any general
> >> principles of right and wrong. The conditions of the problem are not
> >> within our grasp. What the
> >> infinitely wise and good God may see fit to do with his creatures;
> >I disagree that the ringleader of an organization whose mandate is to torture
> > all non-members for any length of time to be "infinitely good."
> > I think most atheists I know are more good than that, since they don't torture anybody
> >, ever, and they don't belong to any organizations that are involved in torture.
>
> God doesn't torture anybody.
>
> When you announce in this life that you have no use for God and his promises, he
> lets you go. If it's torture, it's what you declared you wanted to find out.
> We, otoh, tried to warn you, but you knew better. Enjoy the flames when you
> arrive, if they exist. We don't know. But I'm working to the other direction
> which is the only direction that input does exist.
in a human life.
It merely blunt every human's ability to contribute to a better world,
for our next generation.
It therefore impedes the progress of the society and the world at
large.
Why should atheist allow that?
sbalneav
May 24, 2012, 11:09:35 PM5/24/12
to
Mike Lovell <mike....@null.local> wrote:
> On 2012-05-25, Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>> [...]
>
> Nice one Neil, you've nailed him :-)
>
> He can't avoid the fact it's torture so he's trying a new trick.
>
> It hasn't worked, we all know he's just been beaten down, badly!
>
> <smirk>
Yup, Kudos to Neil. Mathias Ramsay gets another poundin'.
> On 2012-05-25, Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>> [...]
>
> Nice one Neil, you've nailed him :-)
>
> He can't avoid the fact it's torture so he's trying a new trick.
>
> It hasn't worked, we all know he's just been beaten down, badly!
>
> <smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 9:29:04 PM5/24/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>
> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> of is only a figment of your imagination.
I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who engages in the act of torture at unspeakable proportions. Not my fault that you don't understand what a conditional statement is. Did you drop out of home school at an early age, by any chance?
> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>
> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
9th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
sbalneav
May 25, 2012, 12:00:38 AM5/25/12
to
Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>> > No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>
>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>
> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who engages in the act of torture at unspeakable proportions. Not my fault that you don't understand what a conditional statement is. Did you drop out of home school at an early age, by any chance?
This is Calvin's standard dodge when you've backed him into a corner that he
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>> > No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>
>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>
> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who engages in the act of torture at unspeakable proportions. Not my fault that you don't understand what a conditional statement is. Did you drop out of home school at an early age, by any chance?
can't wiggle out of. It's basically his version of the "Why do you talk/care
about something you don't think exists?" whine. Which is a convoluted way
of asking "Why don't you atheists just shut up?"
It means you're winning.
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 12:10:25 AM5/25/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:17:58 PM UTC-7, Mike Lovell wrote:
> On 2012-05-25, Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> > believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> > [...]
>
> Nice one Neil, you've nailed him :-)
Thanks! I don't see any way for them to argue this point (that God is a psychopathic torturer) without them looking bad. Most of them try to tell me the torture is metaphorical (metaphorical for what, I wonder? I've never got a straight answer), but this is the first one who has argued that torture isn't torture when God does it. I thought that would be the most popular argument, but it isn't.
> On 2012-05-25, Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> > believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> > [...]
>
> Nice one Neil, you've nailed him :-)
> He can't avoid the fact it's torture so he's trying a new trick.
>
> It hasn't worked, we all know he's just been beaten down, badly!
>
> <smirk>
Mike Lovell
May 25, 2012, 12:09:20 AM5/25/12
to
Neil Kelsey
May 24, 2012, 11:59:37 PM5/24/12
to
> So you're not really saying anything against God.
> He's just a figment of your imagination.
> I don't really care what you think about me.
> That's just a result of the
> noetic effects of your unregenerate sinful nature.
> And the children of Satan will always make up lies about the children of
> God.
> "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's
> desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do
> with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he
> speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
> --John 8:44 (ESV)
> See how that works?
Yes. You quote some hallucinogenic gibberish and think you've scored a point.
> So, you lose, big time, because of your unbelief.
> And it's only the beginning.....
>
> <smirk>
10th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 12:45:24 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>
>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>
> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>
>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>
Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
can't believe there's any torture. That's all that matters to me.
>> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
>
So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
You sure are one mixed-up individual.
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 12:48:37 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>
> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
It's actually the whole point I'm making. You don't believe God exists,
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>
> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
therefore you cannot possibly believe there's any torturing taking
place. I'm satisfied with that.
<smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 7:55:49 AM5/25/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >
> > That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>
> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
No it isn't. The point you've been making is that when God burns people in a lake of fiery sulfur for eternity it isn't torture, it's "punishment."
> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >
> > That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>
> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
> You don't believe God exists,
> therefore you cannot possibly believe there's any torturing taking
> place.
> I'm satisfied with that.
>
> <smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 8:08:33 AM5/25/12
to
On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>
> >> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >
> > I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>
> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> can't believe there's any torture.
The point is that YOU believe there's torture, and so do all the other Christians (although most of you don't like to admit it to our faces), which means you think all non-Christians deserve to be tortured, which means that almost half the people on earth is running around thinking the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity. Your religion is psychopathic. We need to rid ourselves of dangerously antisocial beliefs like yours.
> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>
> >> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >
> > I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>
> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> can't believe there's any torture.
> That's all that matters to me.
> >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> >
> > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
>
> So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
> You sure are one mixed-up individual.
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 9:13:32 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>>>
>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>>>
>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>>
>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
>> can't believe there's any torture.
>
> The point is that YOU believe.
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>>>
>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>>>
>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>>
>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
>> can't believe there's any torture.
>
I don't really care what you think about me.
think whatever you want.
See how that works?
<smirk>
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 9:15:52 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>>>
>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>>
>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
>
> No it isn't.
Yes, it is. You don't believe God exists, so therefore you cannot
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>>>
>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>>
>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
>
> No it isn't.
believe that anyone is actually tortured.
I'm very happy to hear that.
Got it?
<smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 9:28:48 AM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>>>
> >>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >>>
> >>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
> >>
> >> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> >> can't believe there's any torture.
> >
> > The point is that YOU believe.
>
> I don't really care what you think about me.
Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me about what you're like.
> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>>>
> >>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >>>
> >>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
> >>
> >> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> >> can't believe there's any torture.
> >
> > The point is that YOU believe.
>
> I don't really care what you think about me.
> As long as you don't really believe that God tortures anybody, you can
> think whatever you want.
> See how that works?
Yes. You are trying to manipulate your image. I see that a lot from narcissistic theists.
* snip *
linuxgal
May 25, 2012, 9:31:19 AM5/25/12
to
Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> Also, if anyone worships God because they enjoy seeing people they don't like get "punished" (i.e. tortured), then they're psychopathic.
"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more
>
> Also, if anyone worships God because they enjoy seeing people they don't like get "punished" (i.e. tortured), then they're psychopathic.
abundantly, they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in
hell." (St. Thomas Aquinas, a Doctor of the Church)
MelissA
May 25, 2012, 9:36:22 AM5/25/12
to
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 9:52:37 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>>>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
>>>> can't believe there's any torture.
>>>
>>> The point is that YOU believe.
>>
>> I don't really care what you think about me.
>
> Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me.
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
>>>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
>>>>
>>>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
>>>> can't believe there's any torture.
>>>
>>> The point is that YOU believe.
>>
>> I don't really care what you think about me.
>
I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture. And since you
don't believe he even exists, that takes care of that, shall we say,
little problem.
<smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 9:55:25 AM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:15:52 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >>>
> >>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
> >>
> >> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
> >
> > No it isn't.
>
> Yes, it is.
Then why have you been making other points, like "when God burns people for eternity in a lake of fire then it isn't torture, it's punishment" or "you're a swine and God is going to punish you"?
> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >>>
> >>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
> >>
> >> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
> >
> > No it isn't.
>
> Yes, it is.
> You don't believe God exists, so therefore you cannot
> believe that anyone is actually tortured.
> I'm very happy to hear that.
> Got it?
Yup. You enjoy it when people you don't like get tortured, which illustrates my point that Christianity is a psychopathic meme and that your God worthy of worship whether he exists or not.
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 10:04:15 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 9:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:15:52 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>>>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>>>>
>>>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
>>>
>>> No it isn't.
>>
>> Yes, it is.
>
> Then why have you been making other points?
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:15:52 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
>>>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
>>>>
>>>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
>>>
>>> No it isn't.
>>
>> Yes, it is.
>
I was wanting to see how far you would take your claims about God,
hoping to trap you, when it
hit me that I already had you trapped. You don't believe God exists, so
you cannot possibly
believe that he tortures anyone. It was all in your head.
Bingo! Problem solved.
Now there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, except lick your
wounds, and learn from
your mistakes.
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 10:27:36 AM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 7:04:15 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 9:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:15:52 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >>>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
> >>>>
> >>>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
> >>>
> >>> No it isn't.
> >>
> >> Yes, it is.
> >
> > Then why have you been making other points?
>
> I was wanting to see how far you would take your claims about God,
> hoping to trap you, when it
> hit me that I already had you trapped. You don't believe God exists, so
> you cannot possibly
> believe that he tortures anyone. It was all in your head.
It's not in my head that half of the world thinks the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity, which is what I am concerned about.
> On 5/25/2012 9:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:15:52 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 7:55 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:48:37 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 11:59 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:07:18 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> But since you don't believe that God actually exists, then you don't
> >>>>>> believe that there's any actual torture being committed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's irrelevant to the conditional statement that "IF God exists THEN he is a psychopathic monster who tortures most of humanity for all eternity."
> >>>>
> >>>> It's actually the whole point I'm making.
> >>>
> >>> No it isn't.
> >>
> >> Yes, it is.
> >
> > Then why have you been making other points?
>
> I was wanting to see how far you would take your claims about God,
> hoping to trap you, when it
> hit me that I already had you trapped. You don't believe God exists, so
> you cannot possibly
> believe that he tortures anyone. It was all in your head.
> Bingo! Problem solved.
Evading my point does not mean you have solved the problem. The problem still exists - half the population thinks the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity. Not only that, they/you are actually participating in an organization whose mandate is to have all non-members tortured. That you can blithely ignore this fact is disturbing, and disturbed.
> Now there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, except lick your
> wounds, and learn from your mistakes.
11th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> See how that works?
Yes, I'm familiar with how theists tend to dodge and evade when when cornered.
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 10:41:03 AM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> It's not in my head that half of the world thinks the other half deserves to be punished for eternity.
It really doesn't matter what you think. Get over it.
As long as you don't believe that God actually tortures anyone, that's
all that matters.
Got it?
<smirk>
> It's not in my head that half of the world thinks the other half deserves to be punished for eternity.
It really doesn't matter what you think. Get over it.
As long as you don't believe that God actually tortures anyone, that's
all that matters.
Got it?
<smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 11:12:00 AM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 7:41:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > It's not in my head that half of the world thinks the other half deserves to be punished for eternity.
>
> It really doesn't matter what you think. Get over it.
It matters what *you* think, since you think that half the world deserves to be tortured. It's dangerous to the rest of us. It hinders our efforts to maintain a civil society. That's my point.
> On 5/25/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > It's not in my head that half of the world thinks the other half deserves to be punished for eternity.
>
> It really doesn't matter what you think. Get over it.
> As long as you don't believe that God actually tortures anyone, that's
> all that matters.
> Got it?
Yes. You like to divert the issue when trapped in a corner. I got it a long time ago.
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 11:42:22 AM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >>>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> >>>> can't believe there's any torture.
> >>>
> >>> The point is that YOU believe.
> >>
> >> I don't really care what you think about me.
> >
> > Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me.
>
> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not. It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
> On 5/25/2012 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:13:32 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:08 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:45:24 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/24/2012 9:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:10:25 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/24/2012 9:04 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No, I'm simply using words as they are defined in the dictionary:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But you don't really believe that God exists, so this torture you speak
> >>>>>> of is only a figment of your imagination.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've been very explicit that IF God exists THEN [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. I know. That's my whole point. You don't believe he does, so you
> >>>> can't believe there's any torture.
> >>>
> >>> The point is that YOU believe.
> >>
> >> I don't really care what you think about me.
> >
> > Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be arguing with me.
>
> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
> And since you
> don't believe he even exists, that takes care of that, shall we say,
> little problem.
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 4:56:50 PM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> As long as you believe that world deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
That sentence doesn't make any sense.
> As long as you believe that world deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
only question that matters.
Got it?
Calvin Ramsey
May 25, 2012, 5:00:06 PM5/25/12
to
On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
>
> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
>
> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
It's all in your head.
Andy W
May 25, 2012, 5:16:48 PM5/25/12
to
On May 25, 1:08 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
>
> > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
>
> > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
>
> No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
>
<Talk show voice enabled>
>
> > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
>
> > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
>
> > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
>
> No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
>
So tell me Neil, what other traits does Calvin have in common with a
psychopath?
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 8:11:10 PM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:00:06 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
> >
> > I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
>
> > It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
>
> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
I believe that if God exists then he tortures most of humanity for all eternity. I've said this several dozen times to you already. You're not too bright, are you?
> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
> >
> > I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
>
> > It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
>
> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
> It's all in your head.
> See how that works?
Yes. You'd rather defend a psychopath by saying idiotic things than admit he's a psychopath.
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 8:01:42 PM5/25/12
to
On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
>
> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
Fixed it.
> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
> only question that matters.
> Got it?
Yup. You demonstrate numerous traits in common with psychopaths.
Neil Kelsey
May 25, 2012, 8:24:00 PM5/25/12
to
Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
End of test. Note that I'm not saying this Calvin loon is a psychopath - we'd have to know more about his history - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is. But more interesting than Calvin (who is standard fair narcissistic wannabe prophet) is applying the test to God. He scores off the charts, particularly if we could apply the law to him (i.e. his criminal versatility is boundless).
Calvin Ramsey
May 26, 2012, 7:40:04 AM5/26/12
to
On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:00:06 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
>>>
>>> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
>>
>>> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
>>
>> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
>
> I believe that if God exists then he tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
You can think a thousand "what ifs".
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:00:06 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
>>>
>>> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
>>
>>> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
>>
>> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
>
> I believe that if God exists then he tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
I don't care about any of them.
I only care that you don't believe that God actually and truly tortures
anyone.
I've said that several dozen times to you already. You're not too
bright, are you?
<vbg><blink><blink>
For those of you with an interest in learning about Augustinianism and
Predestination as well
as other fascinating topics, you will find lots of articles to read or
listen to on your mp3 player,
while at home or at work, from these websites:
*See especially* : http://www.the-highway.com/Calvinism_Meeter.html
http://monergism.com/
http://monergism.com/mp3/
http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/whatismonergism2.html
http://calvinistcorner.com/predestination/
http://ccel.org/
http://reformed.org/calvinism/
http://reformedreader.org/
http://carm.org/predestination-and-election
http://the-highway.com/predestination_index.html
http://albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/verses_concerning_predestination.htm
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/main.html
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
http://nicenecouncil.com/media/
http://the-highway.com/calvinism.html
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/
http://scienceagainstevolution.org/
http://leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/
http://wordofhisgrace.org/science.html
http://godandscience.org/
http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/
http://spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/classic.htm
http://wabashcenter.wabash.edu/resources/result_browse.aspx?topic=675&pid=650
http://puritansermons.com/toc.htm
http://grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/
Calvin Ramsey
May 26, 2012, 7:42:46 AM5/26/12
to
On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>
>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>
> Fixed it.
>
>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>> only question that matters.
>
> Nope.
Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>
>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>
> Fixed it.
>
>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>> only question that matters.
>
> Nope.
You got it?
Neil Kelsey
May 26, 2012, 9:20:13 AM5/26/12
to
> You got it?
I get that your eagerness to participate in and defend an organization whose mandate is to torture all non-members (Christianity) is a sign of psychopathy.
Neil Kelsey
May 26, 2012, 9:26:46 AM5/26/12
to
On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:40:04 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:00:06 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
> >>
> >>> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
> >>
> >> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
> >
> > I believe that if God exists then he tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
>
> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
>
> I don't care about any of them.
Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to them.
> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:00:06 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 11:42 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:52:37 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I only care that you don't falsely accuse God of torture.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not falsely accusing God of torture, whether he exists or not.
> >>
> >>> It says right in the Bible that he tortures most of humanity for eternity.
> >>
> >> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he tortures anyone.
> >
> > I believe that if God exists then he tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
>
> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
>
> I don't care about any of them.
> I only care that you don't believe that God actually and truly tortures
> anyone.
>
> I've said that several dozen times to you already.
> You're not too
> bright, are you?
* snip *
Calvin Ramsey
May 26, 2012, 4:03:58 PM5/26/12
to
On 5/26/2012 9:20 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>>>
>>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>>>
>>> Fixed it.
>>>
>>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>>>> only question that matters.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>
>> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
>
> Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
As long as it's just a figment of your imagination, that's all that
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>>>
>>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>>>
>>> Fixed it.
>>>
>>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>>>> only question that matters.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>
>> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
>
> Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
matters to me.
As long as *you* don't believe that anyone is actually tortured is all
that matters.
You got that?
> I get that you're eager to participate in and defend an organization whose mandate is to punish all non-members of Christianity.
I fixed the wording so that it's correct.
Calvin Ramsey
May 26, 2012, 4:16:52 PM5/26/12
to
On 5/26/2012 9:26 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:40:04 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> It says right in the Bible that he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for eternity.
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:40:04 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he undeservedly punishes anyone.
>>>
>>> I believe that if God exists then he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for all eternity.
>>
>> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
>>
>> I don't care about any of them.
>
> Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to them.
No, you just don't like being trapped in that self-made trap of yours.
>> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
>>
>> I don't care about any of them.
>
> Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to them.
You can't really believe that God undeservedly punishes anyone if you
don't first believe that God exists.
See how that works?
<smirk>
>> I only care that you don't believe that God actually and truly tortures
>> anyone.
>>
>> I've said that several dozen times to you already. You're not very bright are you?
>> anyone.
>>
>
> And I've pointed out several dozen times that it's psychopathic that you don't care that you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
And I've asserted many times that all that matters to me is that *you*
> And I've pointed out several dozen times that it's psychopathic that you don't care that you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
don't believe that God
actually torments anyone, but that it's all in *your* head.
You think you got it now?
Andy W
May 26, 2012, 5:53:02 PM5/26/12
to
On May 26, 1:24 am, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:16:48 PM UTC-7, Andy W wrote:
> > On May 25, 1:08 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
>
> > > > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
>
> > > > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
>
> > > No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
>
> > <Talk show voice enabled>
>
> > So tell me Neil, what other traits does Calvin have in common with a
> > psychopath?
>
> Here's the test. It's divided into three sections/factors (the first section is about narcissistic traits, the second about socially deviant lifestyles, and the third is about traits not associated with the first to categories), and each trait is scored from 0 to 2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist)
>
Okay, let's see:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:16:48 PM UTC-7, Andy W wrote:
> > On May 25, 1:08 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
>
> > > > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
>
> > > > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
>
> > > No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
>
> > <Talk show voice enabled>
>
> > So tell me Neil, what other traits does Calvin have in common with a
> > psychopath?
>
> Here's the test. It's divided into three sections/factors (the first section is about narcissistic traits, the second about socially deviant lifestyles, and the third is about traits not associated with the first to categories), and each trait is scored from 0 to 2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist)
>
> Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
>
> Glibness/superficial charm
> Grandiose sense of self-worth
Definitely.
> Pathological lying
Yes.
> Cunning/manipulative
Tries to be but fails.
> Lack of remorse or guilt
> Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
> Callousness; lack of empathy
Big yes.
> Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
>
> Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
>
> Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
> Parasitic lifestyle
No data
> Poor behavioral control
Not sure
> Lack of realistic long-term goals
> Impulsivity
> Irresponsibility
> Juvenile delinquency
> Early behavior problems
> Revocation of conditional release
>
> Traits not correlated with either factor
>
> Promiscuous sexual behavior
> Many short-term marital relationships
> Criminal versatility
>
> End of test. Note that I'm not saying this Calvin loon is a psychopath - we'd have to know more about his history - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is.
> But more interesting than Calvin (who is standard fair narcissistic wannabe prophet) is applying the test to
> God. He scores off the charts, particularly if we could apply the law to him (i.e. his criminal versatility is
> boundless).
>
BTW I am very much enjoying your ongoing pwning of Calvin. He
pretended to killfile me a while back so it's hard for me to draw him
out these days, but I'm sure his egotism wouldn't allow him to risk
missing what we say about him. He'll probably do the same to you
before long so enjoy it while it lasts.
Andy
Andy W
May 26, 2012, 5:37:56 PM5/26/12
to
at all when you put it that way.
<Facepalm>
Andy
Neil Kelsey
May 26, 2012, 10:57:38 PM5/26/12
to
On Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:03:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:20 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
> >>>>
> >>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
> >>>
> >>> Fixed it.
> >>>
> >>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
> >>>> only question that matters.
> >>>
> >>> Nope.
> >>
> >> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
> >
> > Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
>
> As long as it's just a figment of your imagination, that's all that
> matters to me.
>
> As long as *you* don't believe that anyone is actually tortured is all
> that matters.
>
>
> You got that?
A long time ago. You don't seem to get that I disagree with you. I think it really does matter that people like you think that other people deserve to be tortured whether I believe anyone actually gets tortured or not. It makes you a danger to society, like fundamentalist Muslims who fly airplanes into buildings.
> On 5/26/2012 9:20 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
> >>>>
> >>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
> >>>
> >>> Fixed it.
> >>>
> >>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
> >>>> only question that matters.
> >>>
> >>> Nope.
> >>
> >> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
> >
> > Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
>
> As long as it's just a figment of your imagination, that's all that
> matters to me.
>
> As long as *you* don't believe that anyone is actually tortured is all
> that matters.
>
>
> You got that?
> > I get that you're eager to participate in and defend an organization whose mandate is to punish all non-members of Christianity.
>
> I fixed the wording so that it's correct.
Calvin Ramsey
May 26, 2012, 11:11:59 PM5/26/12
to
On 5/26/2012 10:57 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:03:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 9:20 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fixed it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>>>>>> only question that matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
>>>
>>> Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
>>
>> As long as it's just a figment of your imagination, that's all that
>> matters to me.
>>
>> As long as *you* don't believe that anyone is actually tortured is all
>> that matters.
>>
>>
>> You got that?
>
> A long time ago. You don't seem to get that I disagree with you.
You can disagree till you're blue in the face.
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:03:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 9:20 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:42:46 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/2012 8:01 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 1:56:50 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/25/2012 11:12 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As long as you believe that half the world's population (all non-Christians) deserves to be tortured, that's all that matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That sentence doesn't make any sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fixed it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you believe that anybody will actually be tortured by God, is the
>>>>>> only question that matters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent. Noting else matters but that.
>>>
>>> Wrong. It matters that half the world believes the other half deserves to be tortured for eternity.
>>
>> As long as it's just a figment of your imagination, that's all that
>> matters to me.
>>
>> As long as *you* don't believe that anyone is actually tortured is all
>> that matters.
>>
>>
>> You got that?
>
> A long time ago. You don't seem to get that I disagree with you.
Just as long as I know that *you* don't believe that anyone is actually
tortured by God, I'm a "happy camper". Yes, right now I'm sitting beside
a campfire in a National Park, while I'm rubbing your face in it.
<blink><blink><vbg>
Neil Kelsey
May 26, 2012, 11:32:31 PM5/26/12
to
Neil Kelsey
May 26, 2012, 11:41:07 PM5/26/12
to
On Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:16:52 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 9:26 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:40:04 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> >>>>> It says right in the Bible that he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for eternity.
> >>>>
> >>>> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he undeservedly punishes anyone.
> >>>
> >>> I believe that if God exists then he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for all eternity.
> >>
> >> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
> >>
> >> I don't care about any of them.
> >
> > Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to them.
>
> No, you just don't like being trapped in that self-made trap of yours.
>
> You can't really believe that God undeservedly punishes anyone if you
> don't first believe that God exists.
I can believe that you believe God deservedly punishes half of humanity since you believe that God exists, and that's my point that you keep trying to divert.
> On 5/26/2012 9:26 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 4:40:04 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/25/2012 8:11 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> >>>>> It says right in the Bible that he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for eternity.
> >>>>
> >>>> But you don't believe God exists, so you can't believe he undeservedly punishes anyone.
> >>>
> >>> I believe that if God exists then he undeservedly punishes most of humanity for all eternity.
> >>
> >> You can think a thousand "what ifs".
> >>
> >> I don't care about any of them.
> >
> > Sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to them.
>
> No, you just don't like being trapped in that self-made trap of yours.
>
> You can't really believe that God undeservedly punishes anyone if you
> don't first believe that God exists.
> See how that works?
Yes. You try to divert my point (that you worship a psychopathic mass torturer), and I keep getting to make it. Thanks!
> <smirk>
>
> >> I only care that you don't believe that God actually and truly tortures
> >> anyone.
> >>
> >> I've said that several dozen times to you already. You're not very bright are you?
> >
> > And I've pointed out several dozen times that it's psychopathic that you don't care that you worship a God who tortures most of humanity for all eternity.
>
> And I've asserted many times that all that matters to me is that *you*
> don't believe that God
> actually torments anyone, but that it's all in *your* head.
> You think you got it now?
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 12:56:58 AM5/27/12
to
On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
"And he calls me "delusional".
(heh..heh..yes)
> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
"And he calls me "delusional".
(heh..heh..yes)
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 1:07:15 AM5/27/12
to
On 5/26/2012 11:41 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> I can believe that you believe God deservedly punishes half of humanity since you believe that God exists,
> and that's my point that you keep trying to divert.
Now I caught you in a lie.
> I can believe that you believe God deservedly punishes half of humanity since you believe that God exists,
> and that's my point that you keep trying to divert.
I want you to show me where I have been trying to divert the point away
from:
*you believing that I believe that God deservedly punishes half of humanity*
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 10:27:55 AM5/27/12
to
On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>
> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>
> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> "And he calls me "delusional".
> (heh..heh..yes)
I don't think it's particularly funny that you believe half the world deserves to be tortured for eternity.
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 10:34:38 AM5/27/12
to
On Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:53:02 PM UTC-7, Andy W wrote:
> On May 26, 1:24 am, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:16:48 PM UTC-7, Andy W wrote:
> > > On May 25, 1:08 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> >
> > > > > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
> >
> > > > > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
> >
> > > > No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
> >
> > > <Talk show voice enabled>
> >
> > > So tell me Neil, what other traits does Calvin have in common with a
> > > psychopath?
> >
> > Here's the test. It's divided into three sections/factors (the first section is about narcissistic traits, the second about socially deviant lifestyles, and the third is about traits not associated with the first to categories), and each trait is scored from 0 to 2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist)
> >
>
> Okay, let's see:
>
> > Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
> >
> > Glibness/superficial charm
>
> Not that I've noticed
I think those "heh heh...yes" and "smirk" emoticons qualify.
> On May 26, 1:24 am, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 2:16:48 PM UTC-7, Andy W wrote:
> > > On May 25, 1:08 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> Have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath or a sociopath?
> >
> > > > > > Nope . In fact, I score very low on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist.
> >
> > > > > So which is it? First you say 'no', then you say you have been.
> >
> > > > No I didn't. You need a score of 25 or more to be labelled as a psychopath. I only get a 3. God's score is off the charts psychopathic. You obviously know nothing about the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Maybe if you ever took your head out of the Bible (and your ass) you might learn something.
> >
> > > <Talk show voice enabled>
> >
> > > So tell me Neil, what other traits does Calvin have in common with a
> > > psychopath?
> >
> > Here's the test. It's divided into three sections/factors (the first section is about narcissistic traits, the second about socially deviant lifestyles, and the third is about traits not associated with the first to categories), and each trait is scored from 0 to 2. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist)
> >
>
> Okay, let's see:
>
> > Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
> >
> > Glibness/superficial charm
>
> Not that I've noticed
> > Grandiose sense of self-worth
>
> Definitely.
>
> > Pathological lying
>
> Yes.
>
> > Cunning/manipulative
>
> Tries to be but fails.
> > End of test. Note that I'm not saying this Calvin loon is a psychopath - we'd have to know more about his history - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is.
>
> He does seem to get ticks in a lot of boxes.
> > But more interesting than Calvin (who is standard fair narcissistic wannabe prophet) is applying the test to
> > God. He scores off the charts, particularly if we could apply the law to him (i.e. his criminal versatility is
> > boundless).
> >
>
> LOL.
>
> BTW I am very much enjoying your ongoing pwning of Calvin.
>He pretended to killfile me a while back so it's hard for me to draw him
> out these days, but I'm sure his egotism wouldn't allow him to risk
> missing what we say about him.
> He'll probably do the same to you
> before long so enjoy it while it lasts.
>
> Andy
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 10:41:50 AM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>
>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>
> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>
>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>
> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
say,
doesn't exist.
That's a sure sign that you're deluded.
Just as long as I know that *you* really don't believe that anyone is
actually
ever tortured by God, then I'm fine with that. And as long as I know
that you
don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is true, and that
you're
nothing but a cheap little liar and a hypocrite, then I'm satisfied with
being
the one who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
<smirk>
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 11:05:17 AM5/27/12
to
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>
> >> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >
> > A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>
> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> say,
> doesn't exist.
But you say he does (except you call him "God"), which has been my point all along. Your attempts to divert my point is failing. My atheism is irrelevant.
> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>
> >> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >
> > A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>
> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> say,
> doesn't exist.
> That's a sure sign that you're deluded.
> Just as long as I know that *you* really don't believe that anyone is
> actually
> ever tortured by God, then I'm fine with that.
> And as long as I know
> that you
> don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is true,
> and that
> you're
> nothing but a cheap little liar and a hypocrite,
> then I'm satisfied with
> being
> the one who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
As for what I'm being hypocritical about, again, you'll have to explain it to me.
> <smirk>
Hey, Andy W. This is an example what I regard as the "superficial charm" of a pathological narcissist. Agree? Disagree?
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 12:23:45 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>
>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>
>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>
>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>> say,
>> doesn't exist.
>
> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>
>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>
>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>
>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>> say,
>> doesn't exist.
>
But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
your head.
But that's OK. Just as long as I know that *you* really don't believe
that anyone
is actually ever tortured by God, then I'm fine with that. And as long
as I know that
you don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is true, and
that you're
nothing but a cheap little liar and a hypocrite, then I'm satisfied with
being the one
who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
<smirk>
who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 12:40:39 PM5/27/12
to
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >>>
> >>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
> >>
> >> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> >> say,
> >> doesn't exist.
> >
> > But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>
> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
> your head.
Nope. IF God exists he performs magic to violate the laws of nature, and IF God exists then he's a psychopath because he tortures all non-Christians for all eternity (among others). I'm not imagining anything, it's all right in the Bible.
> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>>>
> >>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >>>
> >>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
> >>
> >> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> >> say,
> >> doesn't exist.
> >
> > But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>
> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
> your head.
> But that's OK. Just as long as I know that *you* really don't believe
> that anyone
> is actually ever tortured by God, then I'm fine with that.
> And as long
> as I know that
> you don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is true,
> and that you're
> nothing but a cheap little liar
> and a hypocrite,
What have I been hyporcritical about? Or are you just lashing out again because I've sent you into another narcissistic rage?
> then I'm satisfied with
> being the one
> who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 12:45:03 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>
>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>
>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>> say,
>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>
>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>
>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>> your head.
>
> Nope. IF God exists [clip]
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>
>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>
>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>> say,
>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>
>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>
>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>> your head.
>
Yep. You don't believe he exists, so you cannot believe that he is
actually anything
you imagine him to be.
Just as long as I know that *you* really don't believe that anyone is
actually
I know that you don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is
true,
and that you're nothing but a cheap little liar and a hypocrite, then
true,
I'm satisfied
with being the one who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
<smirk>
with being the one who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
Free Lunch
May 27, 2012, 12:47:56 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:45:03 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>>> say,
>>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>>
>>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>>
>>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>>> your head.
>>
>> Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>
>Yep. You don't believe he exists, so you cannot believe that he is
>actually anything
>you imagine him to be.
The evidence shows that the god you preach cannot possibly exist.
<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>>> say,
>>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>>
>>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>>
>>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>>> your head.
>>
>> Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>
>Yep. You don't believe he exists, so you cannot believe that he is
>actually anything
>you imagine him to be.
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 12:59:24 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 12:47 PM, Free Lunch wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:45:03 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
> <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>> On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>>>> say,
>>>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>>>
>>>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>>>> your head.
>>>
>>> Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>>
>> Yep. You don't believe he exists, so you cannot believe that he is
>> actually anything
>> you imagine him to be.
>
> The evidence shows that the god you preach cannot possibly exist.
But then that would be because you're non-elect, and no evidence is given
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:45:03 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
> <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
>
>> On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
>>>>>> say,
>>>>>> doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
>>>>
>>>> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
>>>> your head.
>>>
>>> Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>>
>> Yep. You don't believe he exists, so you cannot believe that he is
>> actually anything
>> you imagine him to be.
>
> The evidence shows that the god you preach cannot possibly exist.
to the non-elect. Only the elect receive internal evidence from the Holy
Spirit.
"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children
of God."
--Romans 8:16 (ESV)
Get used to it.
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 1:17:16 PM5/27/12
to
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
> >>>>
> >>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> >>>> say,
> >>>> doesn't exist.
> >>>
> >>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
> >>
> >> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
> >> your head.
> >
> > Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>
> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
> On 5/27/2012 12:40 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:23:45 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/27/2012 11:05 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:41:50 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> On 5/27/2012 10:27 AM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, May 26, 2012 9:56:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/26/2012 11:32 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Delusional thinking like this explains why you think there's a magical ... [clip]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's all right. I know it's all in your head.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A magical invisible psychopath who tortures most of humanity for eternity is in your head, not mine.
> >>>>
> >>>> You're the one who talks about "a magical invisible psychopath" who, you
> >>>> say,
> >>>> doesn't exist.
> >>>
> >>> But you say he does (except you call him "God").
> >>
> >> But the "magical" and "psychopath" that you ascribe to him are only in
> >> your head.
> >
> > Nope. IF God exists [clip]
>
> just as you said
Thanks for finally admitting it.
> Just as long as I really believe that anyone is
> actually
> ever tortured by God, then I have psychopathic traits. And as long as
> I keep arguing by assertion then everything I've been saying so far is
> a logical fallacy,
> including my assertions that you're nothing but a cheap little liar
> and a hypocrite, then
> I lose the argument. That won't stop me from continuing to make
> psychopath remarks.
I expected as much. You accuse me of being a liar and a hypocrite, but you can't support your accusations. You're simply lashing out; I've obviously sent you into a narcissistic rage:
"...narcissistic rage is related to narcissists' need for total control of their environment, including "the need for revenge, for righting a wrong, for undoing a hurt by whatever means". It is an attempt by the narcissist to turn from a passive sense of victimization to an active role in giving pain to others, while at the same time attempting to rebuild their own (actually false) sense of self-worth. It may also involve self-protection and preservation, with rage serving to restore a sense of safety and power by destroying that which had threatened the narcissist." (Wikipedia: narcissistic rage)
As always, psychology provides a rational explanation for theist behaviour since the theists don't have one.
In the meantime, it's not my problem that you can't comprehend what a conditional statement is. IF your God exists THEN you worship a psychopath, because according to your Bible God tortures all non-Christians (and others) for eternity. The fact that you do worship a psychopath explains your fairly psychopathic behaviour.
Free Lunch
May 27, 2012, 1:34:42 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 12:59:24 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
Repeating your allegation will not make it true. You also ignored the
statement I made. I said that _you_ are preaching a god that cannot
possibly exist as you describe it.
>"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children
>of God."
> --Romans 8:16 (ESV)
More indefensible propaganda by a religious writer.
>Get used to it.
I am, that I why I don't accept your foolish religious doctrines.
statement I made. I said that _you_ are preaching a god that cannot
possibly exist as you describe it.
>"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children
>of God."
> --Romans 8:16 (ESV)
>Get used to it.
I am, that I why I don't accept your foolish religious doctrines.
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 2:46:06 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 1:17 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
>> just as you said
>
> Thanks for finally admitting it.
Since, as anyone can tell, those are not my words, thanks for admitting
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
>> just as you said
>
> Thanks for finally admitting it.
you're a liar.
But as long as I know that *you* don't really believe that anyone is
actually
Neil Kelsey
May 27, 2012, 3:14:16 PM5/27/12
to
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:46:06 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/27/2012 1:17 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
> >> just as you said
> >
> > Thanks for finally admitting it.
>
> Since, as anyone can tell, those are not my words, thanks for admitting
> you're a liar.
Nope. I'm just editing your post because you edit mine.
> On 5/27/2012 1:17 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>
> >> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
> >> just as you said
> >
> > Thanks for finally admitting it.
>
> Since, as anyone can tell, those are not my words, thanks for admitting
> you're a liar.
> But as long as I know that *you* don't really believe that anyone is
> actually
> ever undeservedly punished by God, then I'm fine with that. And as long as
> I know that you don't believe that anything you've been saying so far is
> true,
> and that you're nothing but a cheap little liar and a hypocrite, then
> I'm satisfied
> with being the one who exposed your pettiness and hypocrisy.
>
> <smirk>
"...narcissistic rage is related to narcissists' need for total control of their environment, including "the need for revenge, for righting a wrong, for undoing a hurt by whatever means". It is an attempt by the narcissist to turn from a passive sense of victimization to an active role in giving pain to others, while at the same time attempting to rebuild their own (actually false) sense of self-worth. It may also involve self-protection and preservation, with rage serving to restore a sense of safety and power by destroying that which had threatened the narcissist." (wikipedia: narcissistic rage)
Narcissism is the basis of psychopathy.
12th attempt: have you ever been diagnosed as a psychopath? Because you're clearly disturbed.
Calvin Ramsey
May 27, 2012, 3:30:38 PM5/27/12
to
On 5/27/2012 3:14 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:46:06 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 1:17 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
>>>> just as you said
>>>
>>> Thanks for finally admitting it.
>>
>> Since, as anyone can tell, those are not my words, thanks for admitting
>> you're a liar.
>
> Nope. I'm just editing your post because you edit mine.
I don't add words. I just take some away, because your lines exceed 79
> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:46:06 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/27/2012 1:17 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45:03 AM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>>> Yep. If God exists, then I worship a psychopathic monster,
>>>> just as you said
>>>
>>> Thanks for finally admitting it.
>>
>> Since, as anyone can tell, those are not my words, thanks for admitting
>> you're a liar.
>
> Nope. I'm just editing your post because you edit mine.
characters,
and my newsreader won't send if any lines exceed 79 characters.
Don't do it again.
Andy W
May 27, 2012, 6:35:23 PM5/27/12
to
>
> > > But more interesting than Calvin (who is standard fair narcissistic wannabe prophet) is applying the test to
> > > God. He scores off the charts, particularly if we could apply the law to him (i.e. his criminal versatility is
> > > boundless).
>
> > LOL.
>
> > BTW I am very much enjoying your ongoing pwning of Calvin.
>
> Thanks! What is "pwning"? I've seen this word a few times, I'm not sure what it means, exactly.
dominate them, to completely defeat them over and over again while
they can do little or nothing in reply. Apparently it's misspelled
from owned, and a meme was born.
>
> >He pretended to killfile me a while back so it's hard for me to draw him
> > out these days, but I'm sure his egotism wouldn't allow him to risk
> > missing what we say about him.
>
> Sounds about right.
>
> > He'll probably do the same to you
> > before long so enjoy it while it lasts.
>
> I look at it more as a moral obligation. He's pretty tedious.
>
there. It's part of why I continue to mock him even though he's run
away.
Andy
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