Making Friends With non Muslims
Yousef
Awliya comes from the word Wali meaning Saint
So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just making
Saints out of them
Yousef
asim
hahahha this is complete nonesense....obviously someone with a weak sense of
arabic....awliya does NOT mean saint....wali means protector and awliya are
people that 'we' refer to for protection.....
5:51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and
protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he
amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah
guideth not a people unjust.
4:139
Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it
honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah.
5:80
Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil
indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with
the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.
3:28
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than
believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except
by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah
cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
60:1
O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),-
offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has
come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and
yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your
Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure,
(take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship)
with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal.
And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.
these are some of the many ayats in the Quran the revealed Divine
knowledge...i think this person that said what he did, should read the quran
and not 'translate' arabic words on what his parents told him were the
definitions of the same words in a different language, namely Urdu
assalam u alaykum
asim
Yousef
>
>hahahha this is complete nonesense....
So the Arabic English Dictionary is nonsense? hmmm
Anyway Awliya is a term used for scholars or so called learned men to honor
them
Youse
Ellen Russo
Moslem. That is what being a Moslem means. It is not something you
are born into, or take a title because you do prayers 5 times a day.
It is because you are a Bondman of Allah, and you do His Will
completely, correct?
Yousef
>He who is a Surrendered and Submissive One to the Will of God, is a
>Moslem. That is what being a Moslem means. It is not something you
>are born into, or take a title because you do prayers 5 times a day.
>It is because you are a Bondman of Allah, and you do His Will
>completely, correct?
You got it :)
Anyone who believes in God the last day & works righteousness is a
Muslim(read verse 2:62)
Yousef
Mickey
>The Quran says not to take non-Muslims as awliya
>
>Awliya comes from the word Wali meaning Saint
>So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just making
>Saints out of them
>
>Yousef
>
>
non-Muslims?
Also, what is a Muslim saint? Is it the same as a Christian one?
Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
Yousef
>I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
>non-Muslims?
A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>Also, what is a Muslim saint? Is it the same as a Christian one?
Well Saint is a loose translation but a Wali is a Muslim that dedicates his
life to learn the book of God & people usually take words of wisdoms from
them.Some people have a tendency to show great respect & some unfortunately
even go as far as worshipping them
Yousef
Yousef
his
>life to learn the book of God & people usually take words of wisdoms from
>them.Some people have a tendency to show great respect & some unfortunately
>even go as far as worshipping them
Well actually Wali is much more than Saint because God calls himself & his
prophet the Wali for Muslims
So I guess it means Muslims shouldn't elevate non-Muslims(or anyone for that
matter) higher than God or his messanger
Yousef
2Sen Jen's kin
> A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
Not all non muslims are idoltarers, what about the rest
ie: atheists ?
2Sen
(by half)
Saabirah
Ellen Russo wrote in message
<36268437....@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>He who is a Surrendered and Submissive One to the Will of God, is a
>Moslem. That is what being a Moslem means. It is not something you
>are born into, or take a title because you do prayers 5 times a day.
>It is because you are a Bondman of Allah, and you do His Will
>completely, correct?
Are you saying that we who "think" that we are Muslim always do Allah's Will
COMPLETELY? PERECTLY? That is to deny our humanity! Allah (SWT) just how
"incomplete" we are. Why else is Allah the Compassionate, the Forgiving?
Saabirah
>
>
Sentience
wrote:
Be careful Saabirah she follows this guy who claims to be the Buddha,
Jesus, Muhammed (PBUH) and is the fulfillment of the 2cnd coming of
Christ, the coming of the Mahdi and the Maitreya (the coming of
Buddha).
Her messiah has had pointed out to him numerous times, by the
Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and Bahai's where he is distorting the
various Scriptures from each of these faiths and where he has made
both historical and doctrinal errors.
he & his real or imagined followers are bent on trying to prove that
he is the messiah over the internet.
Take care and best wishes.
Student.
>Saabirah
>>
>>
>
>
Yousef
>ie: atheists ?
The QUran only mentions not marrying idolaters
Yousef
Paul J. Koeck
>
> The Quran says not to take non-Muslims as awliya
>
> Awliya comes from the word Wali meaning Saint
> So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just making
> Saints out of them
>
> Yousef
What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
--
Paul J. Koeck, #360
EAC MindControl Beam(tm) Operator #34529085783828-4875
EAC Tech - Personal Mind Control at a great price!
Volume discounts available.
Don't let reality hit you in the ass on your way out.
Only an idiot or a dishonest PromiseKeeper cult member would
think that my opinions necessarily reflect those of my employer.
To reply, change Byte.Me to Primavera
Yousef
>What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
>particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
What possesed me? the fact that some people from Alt.Atheism asked about
this particular subject
hmmmm thats a strange possesion isn't it?
Yousef
Zuleika Ramzi
> >I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
> >non-Muslims?
>
>
I was thought that a muslim man can marry whom ever he wants to provided
she does believe in God.
Wasalam
Zuleika
Zuleika Ramzi
> 5:51
> O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends
and
> protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he
> amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah
> guideth not a people unjust.
Asalam
Does this also apply when the unbelievers are your family?
Wasalam
Zuleika
Yousef
The only verse on this matter is in Sura Al Baqara which forbids marrying
idolaters
Yousef
Maher B.
Salaam Alikum
5:51 is not talking about FRIENDS it is talking about Awlia, the word Awlia
is to take them ( JEWS and Christians ) in the place of Allah (SWT) and take
their advise in religious matters or for matter concerning ones life
religious wise or other one should consult the Quran the Sunnah are a well
known Muslim scholar.
please read the previous ayat 5:50 which is an introduction for this verse
and the next one 5:52.
All Muslim are encouraged to have friends from other faiths and atheists as
by knowing us they might come to Islam.
Sister, please keep your relations with your non-Muslim members of your
family and do not leave them out.
Allah knows best all
Obeid Allah
Maher B.
Zuleika Ramzi wrote in message
<01bdf62a$174b1da0$b21c...@ramzi-ws.a2000.nl>...
Maher B.
Maher B.
Zuleika Ramzi wrote in message
<01bdf62a$5d27f140$b21c...@ramzi-ws.a2000.nl>...
>
>> >I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
>> >non-Muslims?
>>
>>
>> A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>
>I was thought that a muslim man can marry whom ever he wants to provided
>she does believe in God.
>
>Wasalam
>
>Zuleika
Zuleika Ramzi
> The only verse on this matter is in Sura Al Baqara which forbids marrying
> idolaters
>
> Yousef
So that means a muslim can marry all the people of the Book doesn't it?
Wa'alaikom asalam
Zuleika
Zuleika Ramzi
> No sister, a Muslim man can marry only from other monotheistic faiths ...
>
> Maher B.
I am sorry I did not make myself clear I meant The people of the Book.
Wa'alaikom asalam
Zuleika
Mickey
> >>
>>I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
>>non-Muslims?
>
>
>A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>
>
>
>
>life to learn the book of God & people usually take words of wisdoms from
>them.Some people have a tendency to show great respect & some unfortunately
>even go as far as worshipping them
>
>
>
>
Sounds similar to Hinduism in that respect.
Mickey
non-Muslim have to convert?
Saabirah
Salaam
Sentience wrote in message <3628fc67...@news.wantree.com.au>...
>On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:01:05 -0400, "Saabirah" <saab...@mci2000.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Ellen Russo wrote in message
>><36268437....@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>>Are you saying that we who "think" that we are Muslim always do Allah's
Will
>>COMPLETELY? PERECTLY? That is to deny our humanity! Allah (SWT) just
how
>>"incomplete" we are. Why else is Allah the Compassionate, the Forgiving?
>
>Be careful Saabirah she follows this guy who claims to be the Buddha,
>Jesus, Muhammed (PBUH) and is the fulfillment of the 2cnd coming of
>Christ, the coming of the Mahdi and the Maitreya (the coming of
>Buddha).
>
Thank you for the warning. But, I do not think that I might ever be so
influenced by another human being so as to change my Islam in any way. I
know my limitations as well as those ways in which I am capable of
practicing the deen. Insha'Allah all of us will follow only the guidance of
Allah(SWT).
Sister Saabirah
Yousef
>You mean that a Muslim could marry and atheist or an agnostic? Would the
>non-Muslim have to convert?
I'm not sure
sorry
Yousef
Yousef
>
>So that means a muslim can marry all the people of the Book doesn't it?
Yes
Yousef
Yousef
>>
>Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus, Buddhists,
>Shintos and followers of other religions?
Like I said I'm not sure about this subject I haven't studied it enough
Yousef
Yousef
>know something. That is better than most of the theists who post to
>alt.atheism.
Well religion *is* about admitting that you are not perfect & make mistakes
& don't know everything
Yousef
Yousef
>ls
like the Quran says "Produce your proof if ye are truthful" the Quran stays
silent on women marrying people of the book so we cannot say halal or haram
Yousef
Frank Wustner
> >So that means a muslim can marry all the people of the Book doesn't it?
> Yes
It also implies that a muslim can marry an atheist, since an atheist
is, by definition, not an idolater. Is this true?
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade
Mickey
know something. That is better than most of the theists who post to
alt.atheism.
Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
Mickey
>
> >
>>So that means a muslim can marry all the people of the Book doesn't it?
>
>Yes
>
>
Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus, Buddhists,
Shintos and followers of other religions?
Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
Laulak Siddique
>
> > >I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
> > >non-Muslims?
> >
> >
> > A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>
> she does believe in God.
>
> Wasalam
>
> Zuleika
A muslim man can marry a Jew or a Christian
ls
Laulak Siddique
>
> > The only verse on this matter is in Sura Al Baqara which forbids marrying
> > idolaters
> >
> > Yousef
>
>
>
> Zuleika
Laulak Siddique
>
> "Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >>So that means a muslim can marry all the people of the Book doesn't it?
> >
> >
> >Yousef
> >
> Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus, Buddhists,
> Shintos and followers of other religions?
>
> Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
>
> High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
>
> send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
Hindus are idolators
ls
Michelle Malkin
<laus...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>Zuleika Ramzi wrote:
>>
>> > The only verse on this matter is in Sura Al Baqara which forbids
marrying
>> > idolaters
>> >
>> > Yousef
>>
it?
>>
>>
>> Zuleika
>
>A muslim woman can only marry a muslim
>ls
So, you admit once again that Muslim women are not equal to Muslim men.
The men can marry Muslims, Jews or Christians, but the women can only
marry Muslims. Along with inequality in inheritance rules and
ridiculously confining clothing, that is three ways that you have shown
Muslim women to be unequal to Muslim men. And you did this all by
yourself.
Michelle Malkin
doesn't it?
>> >
>> >
>> >Yousef
>> >
>> Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus,
Buddhists,
>> Shintos and followers of other religions?
>>
>> Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
>>
>> High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
>>
>> send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
>
>Hindus are idolators
>ls
That's only one religion. What about all the rest?
Laulak Siddique
>
> In <3622B7...@worldnet.att.net> Laulak Siddique
> <laus...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> >>
> >> > The only verse on this matter is in Sura Al Baqara which forbids
> marrying
> >> > idolaters
> >> >
> >> > Yousef
> >>
> it?
> >>
> >>
> >> Zuleika
> >
> >A muslim woman can only marry a muslim
> >ls
>
> So, you admit once again that Muslim women are not equal to Muslim men.
> The men can marry Muslims, Jews or Christians, but the women can only
> marry Muslims. Along with inequality in inheritance rules and
> ridiculously confining clothing, that is three ways that you have shown
> Muslim women to be unequal to Muslim men. And you did this all by
> yourself.
This law came about because women who converted to Islam during the
early days were tortured and beaten by their pagan husbands in a bid to
make them recant. As men are stronger, this law is there to keep muslim
women from falling prey to non-muslim men
ls
Laulak Siddique
>
> In <3622B7...@worldnet.att.net> Laulak Siddique
> <laus...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> doesn't it?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Yousef
> >> >
> >> Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus,
> Buddhists,
> >> Shintos and followers of other religions?
> >>
> >> Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
> >>
> >> High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
> >>
> >> send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
> >
> >Hindus are idolators
> >ls
>
> That's only one religion. What about all the rest?
The only ones permissible are Jews and Christians
ls
Mickey
>
> >>
>>Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus, Buddhists,
>>Shintos and followers of other religions?
>
>
>
>
>Yousef
>
Mickey
>silent on women marrying people of the book so we cannot say halal or haram
>
>Yousef
>
Muslim at all. What do you think?
Maher B.
monotheistic religions (Christian and Jewish).
As for the others, they are polytheistic faiths and Muslims are not allowed
to marry from. They would have to convert to be able to marry.
As a matter of fact, nowadays, *mixed* marriages happen but only in the
west, they get a civil marriage not a theological one.
Maher B.
Mickey wrote in message <3625d0a4...@news.mindspring.com>...
>"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus,
Buddhists,
>>>Shintos and followers of other religions?
>>
>>
>>
>>Like I said I'm not sure about this subject I haven't studied it enough
>>
>>Yousef
>>
>Anyone else want to answer?
>
Sentience
wrote:
>Thank you for the warning. But, I do not think that I might ever be so
>influenced by another human being so as to change my Islam in any way. I
>know my limitations as well as those ways in which I am capable of
>practicing the deen. Insha'Allah all of us will follow only the guidance of
>Allah(SWT).
My apologies then
and best wishes.
Student.
>Sister Saabirah
>
cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: Yousef wrote:
: > So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just
: > making Saints out of them
: What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
: particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
Ease up there, Paul. I happen to like learning about other religions,
if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
If you prefer a flame-fest, join us with Squid-boy on the other thread,
but don't start something where it isn't warrented.
--
****************************************************************
Men think epilepsy divine merely because they do not
understand it. But if they called everything divine
which they do not understand, why, there would be no
end of divine things.
- Hippocrates of Cos
****************************************************************
Sentience
>Ease up there, Paul. I happen to like learning about other religions,
>if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
Well said.
What is the point of hitting each other over the head, in the end the
same lines still often exist, and nothing really has changed except we
all feel more resentment towards one another.
Pretty pointless huh?
Best wishes.
Student.
Jessica M. Wolfman
>"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> >A muslim woman can only marry a muslim
>>>ls
>>
>>like the Quran says "Produce your proof if ye are truthful" the Quran stays
>>silent on women marrying people of the book so we cannot say halal or haram
>>
>>Yousef
>>
>Odd how Laulak messes up the Qu'ran so much. I wonder if he's really a
>Muslim at all. What do you think?
This also rather screws up his statement that women are equal to men,
because if they were, they'd be allowed to marry anyone a muslim man
could.
He's probably a muslim in the same way that our usual fundies are
xtian.
>Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
>
>High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
>
>send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
Jessica Wolfman
"It's fashionable to be anti-trendy"
--Too Much Coffee Man
The Adventurers Guild
http://members.tripod.com/~theguild
Malcolm X Jihad
>
> >You mean that a Muslim could marry and atheist or an agnostic? Would the
>>non-Muslim have to convert?
>
>
>I'm not sure
> sorry
>
>Yousef
>
>
>
Muslim can only marry Jew, Christian, or Muslim (preferred).
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Malcolm X Jihad
> ridiculously confining clothing, that is three ways that you have shown
> Muslim women to be unequal to Muslim men. And you did this all by
The clothing is not radiculous. It's quiet modest, decent, and dignified.
. The Veil
Finally, let us shed some light on what is considered in the west as
the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the
head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the
Judaeo-Christian tradition? Let's set the record straight. According to
Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva
University) in his book 'The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature', it was
the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which,
sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free [22]. He quotes
some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel
to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair
of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment
brings poverty." Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or
prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the
woman's hair is considered "nudity" [23]. Dr. Brayer also mentions that
"During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head
was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she
might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense." Dr. Brayer also
explains that veil of the Jewish woman wasn't always considered a sign of
modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury
rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of
noble women. It, also, represented a woman's inaccessibility as a
sanctified possession of her husband [24]. It is clear in the Old Testament
that uncovering a woman's head was a great disgrace and that's why the
priest had to uncover the suspected adulteress in her trial by ordeal
(Numbers 5:16-18).
What about the Christian tradition? It is well known that Catholic
Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that's not
all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements
about the veil," Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is
Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his
head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered
dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a
woman doesn't cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it
is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she
should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the
image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man didn't
come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman,
but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman
ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (I Corinthians 11:3-10) St
Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of
authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman
who was created from and for the man. St. Tertullian in his famous
treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote," Young women, you wear your
veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear
them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..."
Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that
require women to cover their heads in church [25]. Some Christian
denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep
their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered
by their Church leaders, is "The head covering is a symbol of woman's
subjection to the man and to God" : The same logic introduced by St. Paul
in the New Testament [26].
From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam didn't invent
the head cover, but Islam endorsed it. The Quran urges the believing men
and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the
believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the
bosom "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and
guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should
lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display
their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that
they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31). The Quran
is quite clear that the veil is an essential part of a recipe designed for
the purposes of modesty, but why modesty? The Quran is still clear "O
prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they
should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that
they should be known and not molested" (33:59). This is the whole point,
modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty
is protection.
Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The
Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of
man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man.
The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign
of luxury and distinction of some noble married women.The Islamic veil is
only a sign of modesty with the sole purpose of protecting women, all
women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better safe than sorry.
In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and
women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of
unchastity will be severely punished," And those who launch a charge
against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their
allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence
ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"(24:4).
Compare this strict Quranic attitude with the extremely lax
punishment for rape in the Bible " If a man happens to meet a virgin who
is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he
shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the
girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he
lives" (Deut. 22:28-30). One must ask a simple question here,
who is really punished? The man who only paid a fine for rape,
or the girl who is forced to marry the man who raped her
and live with him until he dies? Another question that
also should be asked is this: which is more protective of women, the
Quranic strict attitude or the Biblical lax attitude?
Some people, especially in the West, would tend to ridicule the whole
argument of modesty for protection. Their argument is that the best
protection is the spread of education, civilised behaviour, and self
restraint. We would say: Fine but not enough. If 'civilization' is enough
protection, then why is it that women in North America, dare not walk
alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ? If
Education is the solution, then why is it that a respected university like
ours has a 'walk home service' for female students on campus? If self
restraint is the answer, then why are cases of sexual harassment in the
workplace on the news media every day? A sample of those accused of sexual
harassment, in the last few years, includes: Navy officers, Managers,
University professors, Senators, Supreme Court Justices, and the President
of the United States! I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the
following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
office at Queen's University:
* In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
* 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
lives",
* 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
* 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
university, and
* A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
caught."
Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
the price.
Notes
21. Hillman, op. cit., p. 12.
22. Menachem M. Brayer, The Jewish Woman in Rabbinic Literature: A
Psychosocial Perspective (Hoboken, N.J: Ktav Publishing House, 1986)
p. 239.
23. Ibid., pp. 316-317. Also see Swidler, op. cit., pp. 121-123.
24. Ibid., p. 139.
25. Clara M. Henning, " Cannon Law and the Battle of the Sexes" in Rosemary
R. Ruether, ed., Religion and Sexism: Images of Woman in the Jewish and
Christian Traditions (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1974) p. 272.
26. Donald B. Kraybill, The riddle of the Amish Culture (Baltimore: Johns
Hopkins University Press, 1989) p. 56.
27. The Times, Nov. 18, 1993.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malcolm X Jihad
> ridiculously confining clothing, that is three ways that you have shown
Hijab Poem (From a Muslim woman to a non-Muslim woman )
When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair
My words you can't hear
because you're too full of fear
mouth gaping
all you do is stare
You think its not my choice
in your own liberation rejoice
You think its I'm uneducated
trapped, oppressed and subjugated
You're so thankful that you're free
But non-Muslim woman you've got it wrong
You're weak and I'm strong
For I've rejected the trap of man
fancy clothes, low neck, short skirt
those are the devices for pain and hurt
I'm not falling for that little plan
I'm the person with ideas and thought
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought
I'm me, not a fancy toy
I won't decorate anyone's arm
nor be promoted for my charm
There is more to me than playing coy
Living life as a balancing game
mother, daughter, wife, nurse, cleaner, cook, lover
and still bring home a wage
Who thought up the modern freedom?
Where man can love 'em and man can leave 'em
This is not free, but life in a cage
Always jumping to a male agenda
competing on his terms
No job share, no creche facilities
no feeding and nappy changing amenities
No time off for menstrual pain
hormones they laugh what a shame
No equal pay
equal skill your job can always fill
No promotion unless you're sterilized
No promotion unless you're sexually terrorized
And this is liberation?
...Non-Muslim woman you can have your life
Mine, it has less strife
I cover and I get respected
surely that's to be expected for
I won't demean the feminine
I won't live to male criterion
I dance my own tune
and hope you see this very soon
For you're sake wake up and see the light
Are you so sure that you are right?
By: Anonymous
Malcolm X Jihad
> marry Muslims. Along with inequality in inheritance rules and
Inheritance rules are quiet fair. In fact, one could argue that
they actually favor women more than men. Think about this:
In Islam, all the financial burden of the family, parents,
children, and even near relatives is placed on the man.
His money is not really his money, it has to be spent on taking care of
the family, paying rent, buying food, clothes, necessities, paying bills,
etc. This is a huge financial burden. The woman is not required to pay
for rent, food, clothes, etc, she's free from financial responsibility.
Her money is all hers, and she can spend it anyway she likes. Her husband
cannot force her to spend her money against her will. When a woman spends
her money on family (something that a man should be doing) she gets double
the reward of a man. Since the man has this financial burden, it would be
unfair if inheritance laws didn't take this into account. More money
should be given to those who have more financial responsibility. This is
common sense. So, don't look at half-truth or one side of the situation
and make an ill informed judgement about inheritance laws in Islam.
I hope you understand. When looking at Islamic laws, one must
look at the socio-economic stucture to get correct understanding.
Jessica M. Wolfman
wrote:
<snip>
> Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The
> Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of
> man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man.
> The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign
> of luxury and distinction of some noble married women.The Islamic veil is
> only a sign of modesty with the sole purpose of protecting women, all
> women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better safe than sorry.
> In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and
> women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of
> unchastity will be severely punished," And those who launch a charge
> against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their
> allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence
> ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"(24:4).
Why can't the men just control themselves? Why punish the women by
making them wear something instead of teaching the men self-control?
Malcolm X Jihad
>Why can't the men just control themselves? Why punish the women by
>making them wear something instead of teaching the men self-control?
>
>Jessica Wolfman
>
The way men behave in USA, and Europe shows that they apparently
cannot control themselves. You know the statistics:
following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
office at Queen's University:
* In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
* 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
lives",
* 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
* 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
university, and
* A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
caught."
Paul J. Koeck
>
> >
> >What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
> >particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
>
> this particular subject
>
> hmmmm thats a strange possesion isn't it?
>
> Yousef
Well, fine, then. But why did you start a new
thread? It kinda set off my little fundy-invader
alarm bells. It looks like you did the old "Let's
go convert us some atheists, bubba." trick the
xian fundies do constantly.
If this was intended to be part of another continuing
thead, well, whoops, sorry about that. Please
disregard my previous message.
--
Paul J. Koeck, #360
EAC MindControl Beam(tm) Operator #34529085783828-4875
EAC Tech - Personal Mind Control at a great price!
Volume discounts available.
Don't let reality hit you in the ass on your way out.
Only an idiot or a dishonest PromiseKeeper cult member would
think that my opinions necessarily reflect those of my employer.
To reply, change Byte.Me to Primavera
Paul J. Koeck
>
> Paul J. Koeck (PKo...@Byte.Me.Com) wrote:
> : Yousef wrote:
>
> : > So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just
> : > making Saints out of them
>
> : particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
>
> if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
>
> but don't start something where it isn't warrented.
Naw. Had enough of that to last. I just don't see why he thinks
an atheist would care. I don't. If you're interested in it, and
the topic came up during a normal thread, I wouldn't care. But
this was xposted by a muslim, which to me didn't seem any different
than the fundy invasions by xians.
I don't really want a flamefest, but if I wanted to learn about Islam,
I'd go to the appropriate newsgroup.
>
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Men think epilepsy divine merely because they do not
> understand it. But if they called everything divine
> which they do not understand, why, there would be no
> end of divine things.
> - Hippocrates of Cos
> ****************************************************************
If my itchy trigger-finger caused me to jump the gun, here,
then I apologize.
Mickey
>Paul J. Koeck (PKo...@Byte.Me.Com) wrote:
>: Yousef wrote:
>
>: > So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just
>: > making Saints out of them
>
>: What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
>: particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
>
>Ease up there, Paul. I happen to like learning about other religions,
>if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
>
>If you prefer a flame-fest, join us with Squid-boy on the other thread,
>but don't start something where it isn't warrented.
I agree. Yousef is actually answering questions and admits when he doesn't
know something. I am also learning from him, due to my interest in
religions. Whether I agree with him or not is totally separate from the
learning.
maff91
wrote:
>In article <3623b3bf...@news.comm-plus.net> gry...@comm-plus.net writes:
>
>>Why can't the men just control themselves? Why punish the women by
>>making them wear something instead of teaching the men self-control?
>>
>>Jessica Wolfman
>>
>
>The way men behave in USA, and Europe shows that they apparently
>cannot control themselves. You know the statistics:
>
> following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
> office at Queen's University:
>
> * In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
> * 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
> lives",
> * 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
> * 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
> university, and
> * A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
> commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
> caught."
So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
injunctions in the Quran?
*****************************************************
"The Age of Paine" by Jon Katz
http://www.wired.com/wired/3.05/features/paine.html
*****************************************************
Mickey
>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 04:11:01 GMT, hyp...@B5B7STSW.com (Mickey) wrote:
>
>>"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>> >A muslim woman can only marry a muslim
>>>>ls
>>>
>>>like the Quran says "Produce your proof if ye are truthful" the Quran stays
>>>silent on women marrying people of the book so we cannot say halal or haram
>>>
>>>Yousef
>>>
>>Odd how Laulak messes up the Qu'ran so much. I wonder if he's really a
>>Muslim at all. What do you think?
>
>This also rather screws up his statement that women are equal to men,
>because if they were, they'd be allowed to marry anyone a muslim man
>could.
>
>He's probably a muslim in the same way that our usual fundies are
>xtian.
>
I commented on that in another post - three ways he's proven that Muslim
women are not equal to Muslim men (at least in his interpretation of things
Muslim) - women inherit half of what men inherit for no good reason;
Muslim men can marry Muslims, Jewish or Christian women and Muslim women
have to wear potato sacks while the men can cover themselves up quote
nicely without having to wear a sack. I didn't even get into how women have
to cover their faces but men don't.
Mickey
>According to our Quran, Muslim men are allowed to marry from any other
>monotheistic religions (Christian and Jewish).
>
>As for the others, they are polytheistic faiths and Muslims are not allowed
>to marry from. They would have to convert to be able to marry.
>
>As a matter of fact, nowadays, *mixed* marriages happen but only in the
>west, they get a civil marriage not a theological one.
>
>Maher B.
And, what would happen to a Muslim man or women not in the West who
converted to another religion? What does the Quran say?
>
>Mickey wrote in message <3625d0a4...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>
>>>>Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus,
>Buddhists,
>>>>Shintos and followers of other religions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Like I said I'm not sure about this subject I haven't studied it enough
>>>
>>>Yousef
>>>
>>Anyone else want to answer?
>>
Maher B.
have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
as I said before I am not one.
In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
Maher B.
Mickey wrote in message <362cfe78...@news.mindspring.com>...
erikc
-- origin: alt.atheism:
>|"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>|> >A muslim woman can only marry a muslim
>|>>ls
>|>
>|>like the Quran says "Produce your proof if ye are truthful" the Quran stays
>|>silent on women marrying people of the book so we cannot say halal or haram
>|>
>|>Yousef
>|>
>|Odd how Laulak messes up the Qu'ran so much. I wonder if he's really a
>|Muslim at all. What do you think?
I figured that out a couple of days ago, and I don't know squat about
islam.
Erikc (SA #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
| "The Truth against the World."
| -- Bardic Motto
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
---- Noam Chomsky
erikc
Laulak Siddique <laus...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
-- origin: alt.atheism:
>|Zuleika Ramzi wrote:
>|>
>|> > >I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
>|> > >non-Muslims?
>|> >
>|> >
>|> > A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>|>
>|> I was thought that a muslim man can marry whom ever he wants to provided
>|> she does believe in God.
>|>
>|> Wasalam
>|>
>|> Zuleika
>|
>|A muslim man can marry a Jew or a Christian
>|ls
What about a muslim *woman*?
Mickey
>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>as I said before I am not one.
>
>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>
>Maher B.
>
another religion or no religion at all, that is their own personal business
and no one else's. To murder someone over choice of religion is totally
against their human rights.
Sentience
>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>as I said before I am not one.
>
>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
One question which is often overlooked is, how does one know that the
person really became a Muslim in the first place?
A person who changes their faith at a later stage would tend to
indicate a person that has neither fully understood the Islamic
message, it consequences nor full relied on God in all matters of
faith.
Student.
>Maher B.
maff91
>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>as I said before I am not one.
>
>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
That can only mean one thing. The world can never permit such
barbarism to prevail.
>
>Maher B.
*****************************************************
Jessica M. Wolfman
wrote:
>In article <3623b3bf...@news.comm-plus.net> gry...@comm-plus.net writes:
>
>>Why can't the men just control themselves? Why punish the women by
>>making them wear something instead of teaching the men self-control?
>>
>>Jessica Wolfman
>>
>
>The way men behave in USA, and Europe shows that they apparently
>cannot control themselves. You know the statistics:
So why punish the women by making them wear something?
Why not make the men wear little spiky collars (spikes turned inward)
around their penises so that if they try to get an erection to rape
someone, they hurt themselves on the spikes. They used to make those
things during the Victorian era, only they would be modified so that
they could only come off at home (say, via a key wired to the bedroom
wall). *That* would cure the problem.
You'll notice that the men who rape, regardless of where they are,
have no self-control, and that's why they sometimes rape old ladies --
*not* because the person looks good or has revealing clothing, because
in that case the risks would be much higher, except for litle old
ladies. They rape because they can't control themselves.
<snip>
Malcolm X Jihad
>
>So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
>injunctions in the Quran?
>
No man is safe from temptations, whether he be a Jew, Christian,
atheist, etc. Not all Muslim men are pure, they should try to
strive had and do jihad against the 'self' and ego to purify
themselves.
You mentioned that men should control themselves. To a certain
extent that is true, but the women should also do thier part.
Do you lock your home to protect it or do you leave it unlocked
because robbers should conrol themselves?
Malcolm X Jihad
> - women inherit half of what men inherit for no good reason;
Inheritance rules are quiet fair. In fact, one could argue that
they actually favor women more than men. Think about this:
In Islam, all the financial burden of the family, parents,
children, and even near relatives is placed on the man.
His money is not really his money, it has to be spent on taking care of
the family, paying rent, buying food, clothes, necessities, paying bills,
etc. This is a huge financial burden. The woman is not required to pay
for rent, food, clothes, etc, she's free from financial responsibility.
Her money is all hers, and she can spend it anyway she likes. Her husband
cannot force her to spend her money against her will. When a woman spends
her money on family (something that a man should be doing) she gets double
the reward of a man. Since the man has this financial burden, it would be
unfair if inheritance laws didn't take this into account. More money
should be given to those who have more financial responsibility. This is
common sense. So, don't look at half-truth or one side of the situation
and make an ill informed judgement about inheritance laws in Islam.
I hope you understand. When looking at Islamic laws, one must
look at the socio-economic stucture to get correct understanding.
Paul J. Koeck
>
> cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
> >Paul J. Koeck (PKo...@Byte.Me.Com) wrote:
> >: Yousef wrote:
> >
> >: > So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just
> >: > making Saints out of them
> >
> >: What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
> >: particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
> >
> >Ease up there, Paul. I happen to like learning about other religions,
> >if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
> >
> >If you prefer a flame-fest, join us with Squid-boy on the other thread,
> >but don't start something where it isn't warrented.
>
> I agree. Yousef is actually answering questions and admits when he doesn't
> know something. I am also learning from him, due to my interest in
> religions. Whether I agree with him or not is totally separate from the
> learning.
I noticed this from reading his other posts. It's very refreshing.
Note the incredible dichotomy between Yousef and Laulique.
Telling, is it not?
>
> Mickey (Michelle Malkin) BAAWA knight
>
> High Priestess Bastet of the Non-Church Temple of Si & Am
>
> send e-mail to:moc.gnirpsdnim@7bniklam
--
maff91
wrote:
>In article <363aef8c...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
>>injunctions in the Quran?
>>
>
>No man is safe from temptations, whether he be a Jew, Christian,
>atheist, etc. Not all Muslim men are pure, they should try to
>strive had and do jihad against the 'self' and ego to purify
>themselves.
>
>You mentioned that men should control themselves. To a certain
>extent that is true, but the women should also do thier part.
>Do you lock your home to protect it or do you leave it unlocked
>because robbers should conrol themselves?
So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
protect it's citizens? Shouldn't power be devolved so that there is
checks and balances? When placing absolute power in religion, what
happens when that power is abused? Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Have you considered what will happen to religion when religion rides
roughshod over people?
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>In article <3623b3bf...@news.comm-plus.net> gry...@comm-plus.net writes:
>
>>Why can't the men just control themselves? Why punish the women by
>>making them wear something instead of teaching the men self-control?
>>
>>Jessica Wolfman
>>
>
>The way men behave in USA, and Europe shows that they apparently
>cannot control themselves. You know the statistics:
>
> following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
> office at Queen's University:
>
> * In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
> * 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
> lives",
> * 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
> * 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
> university, and
> * A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
> commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
> caught."
>
>--
It only shows that Canadians are healthy people and much less violent
then in the Islamic dictatorships where no one run such statistic,
women don't complain, and it is all shoved under the carpet.
Not to mention the awfull female genital mutilation where you cut her
vagina to turn her into a female eunuch.
So don't you dare come here and point a finger at us, free people, who
gave you shelter and freedom against your own dictators you ran away
from...!!!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
>
THERE IS NO MOSLEM ALLAH.............
NO JEWISH YAHVEH.........
NO CHRISTIAN FATHER.......
it is all a lie, lies that were invented by bullies and people
oppressors,
Each one of them built his own empire by force and by the sword.
Ask Muhamad about it, read your Quran about who is to live and who is
to die unless the entire world convert to Islam.
How stupid it is to even assume so.
Wake up man, wake up, for your own sake and mental health.
And stay away from alt.atheism
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G.M.B. a # 557
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>hyp...@B5B7STSW.com writes:
>
>> - women inherit half of what men inherit for no good reason;
>
>
>Inheritance rules are quiet fair. In fact, one could argue that
>they actually favor women more than men. Think about this:
>
Jews say the same, but both of you are liers who invented the
oppresion of women and enshrined it in your laws. But when it comes to
the truth, you ware thick black glasses.
Read further...
>In Islam, all the financial burden of the family, parents,
>children, and even near relatives is placed on the man.
>
Because the woman is prohibited from functioning as a human
altogether.
Even without mentioning the lunatics of the Taleban of Afghanistan who
pushed the woman behind closed doors altogether and stopped them even
from practicing as doctors or teachers etc,
Even in more moderate arab countries the woman is not allowed to earn
a proper living, so how would she survive if the man will not carry
the financial burden ?
>His money
His money ??? who is he doing favours to ?? to his female slave ??
To the one he torments sexually even if she doesn't like him ??
IT IS A RAPE....even if she is your wife it is a rape if you screw her
against her consent.... Does anyone in an arab country ever even
thought such thouhgts ??
So it is not ""HIS MONEY"" it his her money...
>is not really his money, it has to be spent on taking care of
>the family, paying rent, buying food, clothes, necessities, paying bills,
>etc. This is a huge financial burden. The woman is not required to pay
>for rent, food, clothes, etc, she's free from financial responsibility.
>
Let her be free to produce.... and she will gladly carry her
responsibilty... and as usual she will upstage the stooge who call
himself her hero...
>Her money is all hers, and she can spend it anyway she likes.
Is that all the respect you have to us readers in alt.atheism ??
What money is hers if she isn't allowed to work and make money ??
How she is going to get money if she is a prisoner ??
And you guys come here to the free west to lecture us about your Quran
and that it is all good and the whole world should convert to Islam
right ??
>Her husband cannot force her to spend her money against her will.
But he can beat the shit out of her and she can't call the police
right ??
You Yousef assume the we are here all dumb Christians or Jews who
never saw an Arab country, I have news for you, some of us here know
the arab theocratic dictatorship far better then you,
Ya Yousef Ya Yousef.
> When a woman spends her money on family (something that a man should be doing) she gets double
>the reward of a man.
This is the continuation of you dreams that women have rights, and can
make money, now you better and you should stop dreaming.
>Since the man has this financial burden, it would be
>unfair if inheritance laws didn't take this into account. More money
>should be given to those who have more financial responsibility. This is
>common sense. So, don't look at half-truth
Look who is talking about half truths.....
But in your defence I must say that you are too blind to even see the
truth even if it hits you with a 2X4 on the face. You are waring the
dark glasses called Quran and this is the only filter through which
you see the world and life and democracy...
(What is that...you know ??)
>or one side of the situation and make an ill informed judgement about inheritance laws in Islam.
>
>I hope you understand. When looking at Islamic laws, one must
>look at the socio-economic stucture to get correct understanding.
>
I hope now YOU understand. When you look at the socio-economic of the
dictatorships you ran away from, kiss the ground here and say;
ILL- HAMDU--L'ILAH...
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
THERE IS NO ALLAH.......NO YAHVEH......NO FATHER.....
Every religion invented its own label, it's own deity, and on their
deity's behalf they go out killing people of the other deities.
The killings will stop only when people undetrstand that it is not
god's fault because there is no such a thing as god. It is the
criminal clergy who run the religion and oppress the helpless people,
and kill them and send them to kill on behalf of
""our deity...the true deity..."" and "WE" should go and kill "THEM"
who oppose "OUR" true deity...
This is why we need first to kill the deity by saying that he doesn't
exist and it is all a lie, it will be the beginning of freedom for
Humanity.
Oh yes...we need also to find some jobs for the armies of clergy who
will lose their livelyhood :-) if it comes to pass.
G.M.B. atheist # 557
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G.M.B. a # 557
>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>as I said before I am not one.
>
>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>
>Maher B.
>
Will this tragedy happen under Judaism or Christianity or any other
religion ??
So Islam is a coercive religion that do not tolerate free choice of a
person who was born a moslem (he can't help this) and later found out
he doesn't like Islam, but he will be killed if he left the faith
right ?
Did someone said that Islam is a peacefull religion ??
Now you know why so many muslims lately immigrate to the west, 30% for
economic and 70% forreligious reasons, and even if in the beginning
they stick to Islam, it is a matter of time before they become free
people.
Democracy is badly contaminating.
G.M.B. a # 557
>Mickey wrote in message <362cfe78...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>"Maher B." <ma...@home.com> wrote:
>>>According to our Quran, Muslim men are allowed to marry from any other
>>>monotheistic religions (Christian and Jewish).
>>>
>>>As for the others, they are polytheistic faiths and Muslims are not
>allowed
>>>to marry from. They would have to convert to be able to marry.
>>>
>>>As a matter of fact, nowadays, *mixed* marriages happen but only in the
>>>west, they get a civil marriage not a theological one.
>>>
>>>Maher B.
>>
>>And, what would happen to a Muslim man or women not in the West who
>>converted to another religion? What does the Quran say?
>>>
>>>Mickey wrote in message <3625d0a4...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>>"Yousef" <yousef...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>>Would that be Muslims, Jews and Christians and leave out Hindus,
>>>Buddhists,
>>>>>>Shintos and followers of other religions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Like I said I'm not sure about this subject I haven't studied it enough
>>>>>
>>>>>Yousef
>>>>>
>>>>Anyone else want to answer?
>>>>
G.M.B. a # 557
>"Maher B." <ma...@home.com> wrote:
>>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>>as I said before I am not one.
>>
>>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>>
>>Maher B.
>>
>Barbaric. In most countries, nowadays, if a person wants to convert to
>another religion or no religion at all, that is their own personal business
>and no one else's. To murder someone over choice of religion is totally
>against their human rights.
>
Human rights ???
Unheard of in Moslem countries....
G.M.B.
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 03:10:49 GMT, "Maher B." <ma...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>>as I said before I am not one.
>>
>>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>
>One question which is often overlooked is, how does one know that the
>person really became a Muslim in the first place?
>
>A person who changes their faith at a later stage would tend to
>indicate a person that has neither fully understood the Islamic
>message, it consequences nor full relied on God in all matters of
>faith.
>
So why kill him for it ??
G.M.B. a # 557
>Student.
>
>
>>Maher B.
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 03:10:49 GMT, "Maher B." <ma...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>>as I said before I am not one.
>>
>>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>
>That can only mean one thing. The world can never permit such
>barbarism to prevail.
>
Most of Europe will seel their bum for Arab business, the rest of the
world is just watching with envy. So don't rely on "the world"
>>
>>Maher B.
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>On 13 Oct 1998 01:59:46 GMT
>Laulak Siddique <laus...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>-- origin: alt.atheism:
>>|Zuleika Ramzi wrote:
>>|>
>>|> > >I thought it had something to do with marriage. Can Muslims marry
>>|> > >non-Muslims?
>>|> >
>>|> >
>>|> > A Muslim cannot marry an idoltarer & for good reasons
>>|>
>>|> I was thought that a muslim man can marry whom ever he wants to provided
>>|> she does believe in God.
And what if she is an atheist ??
>>|>
>>|> Wasalam
>>|>
>>|> Zuleika
>>|
>>|A muslim man can marry a Jew or a Christian
>>|ls
>What about a muslim *woman*?
>
There is this poor German now in Iran who is under a death sentence
because he had sex with a moslem woman. She was either killed already
or is going to die for it....
Barbarism is not even a sufficient expression for these religious
murders by a "so called" peacefull religion.
Jessica M. Wolfman
wrote:
>In article <363aef8c...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
>>injunctions in the Quran?
>>
>
>No man is safe from temptations, whether he be a Jew, Christian,
>atheist, etc. Not all Muslim men are pure, they should try to
>strive had and do jihad against the 'self' and ego to purify
>themselves.
>
>You mentioned that men should control themselves. To a certain
>extent that is true, but the women should also do thier part.
>Do you lock your home to protect it or do you leave it unlocked
>because robbers should conrol themselves?
We also don't board up the windows and hide from the robbers.
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mickey
>Mickey wrote:
>>
>> cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>> >Paul J. Koeck (PKo...@Byte.Me.Com) wrote:
>> >: Yousef wrote:
>> >
>> >: > So the Quran doesn't forbid making friends with non-Muslims just
>> >: > making Saints out of them
>> >
>> >: What exactly possessed you to think that anyone in this
>> >: particular newsgroup (alt.atheism) gives a shit?
>> >
>> >Ease up there, Paul. I happen to like learning about other religions,
>> >if for no other reason than to clear up any misconceptions I may have.
>> >
>> >If you prefer a flame-fest, join us with Squid-boy on the other thread,
>> >but don't start something where it isn't warrented.
>>
>> I agree. Yousef is actually answering questions and admits when he doesn't
>> know something. I am also learning from him, due to my interest in
>> religions. Whether I agree with him or not is totally separate from the
>> learning.
>
>I noticed this from reading his other posts. It's very refreshing.
>Note the incredible dichotomy between Yousef and Laulique.
>Telling, is it not?
>
list that Elroy mentioned.
Mickey
>On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 05:15:24 GMT, hyp...@B5B7STSW.com (Mickey) wrote:
>
>>>Before I answer you, I want to make it clear to you that I am no scholar, I
>>>have good reference books but many aspects will need a scholar to answer and
>>>as I said before I am not one.
>>>
>>>In my opinion, and I might be wrong, If they declare and make it public that
>>>they have converted from Islam, then he/she has three days warning to repent
>>>and take Islam back again. If after the three days he/she did not revert
>>>back well, then the Muslim leader has to rule on him/her the death penalty.
>>>
>>>
>>Barbaric. In most countries, nowadays, if a person wants to convert to
>>another religion or no religion at all, that is their own personal business
>>and no one else's. To murder someone over choice of religion is totally
>>against their human rights.
>>
>Human rights ???
>Unheard of in Moslem countries....
>
>G.M.B.
>
>
Malcolm X Jihad
>
>So why punish the women by making them wear something?
>
It's not a punishment. Many women chose to wear them because
they feel dignified in the dress. Muslim women in USA
chose to wear the hijab, also in Europe. No one's forcing
them.
>Why not make the men wear little spiky collars (spikes turned inward)
>around their penises so that if they try to get an erection to rape
>someone, they hurt themselves on the spikes. They used to make those
>things during the Victorian era, only they would be modified so that
>they could only come off at home (say, via a key wired to the bedroom
>wall). *That* would cure the problem.
>
I understand your anger towards men
>You'll notice that the men who rape, regardless of where they are,
>have no self-control, and that's why they sometimes rape old ladies --
>*not* because the person looks good or has revealing clothing, because
>in that case the risks would be much higher, except for litle old
>ladies. They rape because they can't control themselves.
>
I agree that rape is not necessarily related to how women dress.
However won't you agree that sexual harassment has a lot
to do with how women dress?
Malcolm X Jihad
>
>So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
>protect it's citizens?
Yes, the state should protect citizens. That's not the question.
The question is why is it not working in USA, Europe, etc
where there is not religion at state level?
following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
office at Queen's University:
* In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
* 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
lives",
* 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
* 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
university, and
* A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
caught."
Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
the price.
Jim Sarbeck
) wrote:
> Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
> change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
> culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
> manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
> even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
> the price.
People fear the cure may bring loss of things held to be of value, that
while not worse than the disease, may be more prevalent, and so the net
result in their opinion will be negative. Immodesty among psychologically
repressed but socially unrestrained people is a source of pleasure that
such people do not want to give up. And most of us are a bit repressed,
given our heritage.
There are two places in which the incidence of violence toward women,
coerced sex, etc. are remarkably low. One is found in a regime of enforced
coverage of the female body, and the other is found in the typical nudist
camp. There are many places in our world where clothing is unnecessary for
any but psychological reasons. If you are only interested in solving the
problem, and not in enforcing a predefined ideology, both of these options
will be OK to consider. Right?
But regardless of these rational approaches, there appear to be a small
percentage of people who are Type I psychopaths, who will not be reachable
by adjustments in their environment. We have to decide what to do about
them, no matter whether everyone is totally covered or totally uncovered.
Regards,
Jim Sarbeck
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Malcolm X Jihad
>It only shows that Canadians are healthy people and much less violent
>then in the Islamic dictatorships where no one run such statistic,
>women don't complain, and it is all shoved under the carpet.
Well Mr. Atheist, before you start repeating the usual anti-Islamic
hate stuff, you should know that there is NO such thing
as Islamic dictatorship. What you see in middle east are
basically puppet governments and friendly dictators of USA
and Europe. Perhaps you should question your own leadership
as to why have they been supporting Saudia dictatorship
and Kuwaiti dictatoship while talking about democracy and
human rights? Isn't this hypocrisy? Why is US protecting
Saudi dictatorship? Why has USA provided Saudi with high-tech
fighter Jets (F-15s) and all kinds of military equipment and
war machinery? Why has US saved Kuwait? Why are
WEtsern nations helping protect dictatorships while talking
about democracy and freedom?
Whether the statistics exist in Muslim countries or not is irrelevant
to the problem in Western world. West has a problem in
sexual harasment and sex crimes, which it simply cannot solve,
it's only getting worse. Only solution is Islam.
Also, keep in mind that Islamic STate does not exist.
Most muslim countries do not apply Islamic law, they have
secular laws, and oppressive regimes backed by Uncle Sam
and European hypocrite cgovernments.
When Alexander the (not so) Great was on his way to conquer the
world, he ran into a Pirate Ship. He said to the Pirate, "How Dare you
Molest the Sea?". The Pirate in turn replied, "How dare you
molest the EARTH!?"
"Big crimiinals put little criminals in jail", read the graffiti in
Berkeley, California.
That's the new world order. Gaddafi, and Saddam are little criminials
compared to the molesters of the Earth in Western Countries, who
molest the earth in the name of "Democracy, Freedom, Human Rights."
Take a look at United States history, it's filled with wars,
bloodshed, massacres, mass carpet bombings, Vietnam, atomic
bombs, Japan Hiroshima NAgasaki, Korean war, Iraq War...
the list goes on. The most people killed by any nation
in the history combined is by the United States, yet we
are told that USA is the champion of human rights.
Read the book "KILLING HOPE" by William Blum, former
STate Dept official. It's about allthe US wars and CIA interventions.
Real terrorists are in washinton DC. Don't listen to the
mainstream propaganda. Read what Michael Parenti say
about US role in the world as an imperialist power. Read what
Naom Chomsky say about US and ISRAELI terroirsm .
It's your choise and freedom to believe or not, but you
shouldn't be so naive to believe all the propaganda against
Islam on the media as the truth. Remember, one man's
freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
--
>Not to mention the awfull female genital mutilation where you cut her
>vagina to turn her into a female eunuch.
You're so misinformed that I don't know where to begin.
That horrible pratice is absolutely forbidden in Islam,
and its' a crime and punishable. If some people practice
it, it in no way means it's part of Islam. There are
people who produce child pornography in many Western nations
including USA, but that does not mean it's part of American
law, does it? Similarly, do not attribute practice
of some people to Islam.
Jim Cheesman
wrote:
>hyp...@B5B7STSW.com writes:
>
>> - women inherit half of what men inherit for no good reason;
>
>
>Inheritance rules are quiet fair. In fact, one could argue that
>they actually favor women more than men. Think about this:
>
>In Islam, all the financial burden of the family, parents,
>children, and even near relatives is placed on the man.
To add my 2 pesetas, I have to agree. While in Egypt (where I lived and
worked for two years) the women are arguably hard done by, what is less
often recognised is that the men don't have it too good either. I lost
count of the number of young men students I had who would come to class
tired out from having two jobs - the reason they all gave was that until
they had a flat and a car they couldn't get married.
While women had less rights than men (something I think is definitely
wrong), their main aim in life was to get married and have children. At
that point they would immediately give up work - I never met an Egyptian
woman who thought it possible to have children and work at the same
time. Were they brainwashed? Possibly, but then that's how their
society works, and I'm not sure that I can argue against that aspect of
it.
JimC
<snip>
Jim Cheesman a.a#1272 ICQ#16101534 mog...@arrakis.es
"Things cannot be other than they are... Everything is made for the best
purpose. Our noses were made to carry spectacles, so we have spectacles."
- Dr. Pangloss, from "Candide" by Voltaire
Andrew Lias
Malcolm X Jihad <ad...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <364ef88e...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
>>protect it's citizens?
>
>Yes, the state should protect citizens. That's not the question.
>The question is why is it not working in USA, Europe, etc
>where there is not religion at state level?
> following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
> office at Queen's University:
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Consider Japan, which
has a government that is every bit as secular as any of those that you
sighted. Sexual assault is nearly non-existant.
> Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
> change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
> culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
> manners of both men and women.
Japan has a rigid code of ettiquette, but when it comes to sexual
modesty... let's just say that many Japanese would consider our sexual
mores to be a bit on the prudish side. Indeed, respectable Japanese men
can often be found, in public, reading graphic (in more ways than one)
comics depicting not only sexual acts, but rather depraved rape scenes.
Likewise, anime (Japanese cartoons), including that shown on television,
often has a component that we would consider exceptionally strong.
>Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
> even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
> the price.
I'd suggest asking a few women if they would be willing to give up their
current set of freedoms in order to achieve the sort of society you would
like to see us inhabit.
--
Please direct all replies to anrwlias AT hotmail.com | Siste viator
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
http://www.wco.com/~anrwlias
Malcolm X Jihad
Well Jessica, I can talk about the hijab and it's benefits, and you'll
keep saying something to oppose it, and this can go on for ever. If you
really want to know what hijab is, you have to try it. Give it a try. Can
I make a suggestion? Put on a hijab and try it for a week. Go to school
while wearing it, or at your work place, go to shopping with it on, just
try it for a week, and the experience will be well worth it.You'll see how
people treat you differently. You may see how it really is. You might
actually like it, if you're not biased. Give it a shot, and see for
yourself. Good luck.
I have to warn you that you may get discriminated against, or
you may get some racist comments passed on you by ignorant people.
Comments like "this is America!", or "go back to your camel land!".
What do you think? Won't this give you a first hand experience
of what it's REALLY like as opposed to what it "appears" to be?
If you do chose to try it, please let me know what your experience and
thoughts were afterwards. I'd be happy to know.
June Gill
>In article <363aef8c...@newnews.dial.pipex.com>
>maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
>>injunctions in the Quran?
>>
>
>No man is safe from temptations, whether he be a Jew, Christian,
>atheist, etc. Not all Muslim men are pure, they should try to
>strive had and do jihad against the 'self' and ego to purify
>themselves.
>
>You mentioned that men should control themselves. To a certain
>extent that is true, but the women should also do thier part.
I agree. They should stop attacking men and demanding sex from
them immediately.
>Do you lock your home to protect it or do you leave it unlocked
>because robbers should conrol themselves?
Why do you persistently compare women with possessions? Could it
be that you think they are possessions?
--
June G
# 364
Malcolm X Jihad
There are no human rights in Islam. Islam has GOD GIVEN rights.
There's a difference. Human rights are those rights which
the HUMANs think all humans should have. God knows better what
rights His creation should have.
maff91
wrote:
>In article <364ef88e...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
>>protect it's citizens?
>
>Yes, the state should protect citizens. That's not the question.
>The question is why is it not working in USA, Europe, etc
>where there is not religion at state level?
There are many social, political and economic reasons for that. Why is
the crime rate in Japan is much lower than anywhere else even though
religion plays little part in society?
Simplistic answers won't solve any problem. As Friedrich von Hayek
said "The road to hell are paved with good intentions".
> following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
> office at Queen's University:
>
> * In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
> * 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
> lives",
> * 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
> * 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
> university, and
> * A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
> commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
> caught."
>
> Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
> change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
> culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
> manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
> even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
> the price.
*****************************************************
Sentience
557) wrote:
>Will this tragedy happen under Judaism or Christianity or any other
>religion ??
It has happened under Christianity in the past but I don't believe
such people were real Christians to start with, I know you will
disagree with this but that's fair enough.
Likewise it is happening now in Israel/Palestine.
It is highly unlikely to happen again in the west since religion and
state were separated.
>Now you know why so many muslims lately immigrate to the west, 30% for
>economic and 70% for religious reasons, and even if in the beginning
>they stick to Islam, it is a matter of time before they become free
>people. Democracy is badly contaminating.
Not sure of the above but here (in Australia) the majority of Muslims
remain Muslims, from one generation to the next.
Student.
>G.M.B. a # 557
Sentience
557) wrote:
>So why kill him for it ??
Exactly that's the whole point .... of my question why?
Mickey
>In article <364ef88e...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
>>protect it's citizens?
>
>Yes, the state should protect citizens. That's not the question.
>The question is why is it not working in USA, Europe, etc
>where there is not religion at state level?
> office at Queen's University:
>
> * In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
> * 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
> lives",
> * 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
> * 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
> university, and
> * A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
> commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
> caught."
>
> Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
> change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
> culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
> manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
> even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
> the price.
A 'culture of modesty" is a truly ridiculous concept. Modesty will not stop
men from raping women. Raising male and female children to respect each
other as individual human beings and not teaching that sex is evil and
filthy and that the human body is a bag of dirt to be hidden away will go
very far toward stopping most of what is going on now. There will probably
always be sick men who will want to rape women as an expression of power
and women who will take advantage of young boys for the same reason, but
being raised with the idea of self-respect and respect for others will cure
a lot of the problem. Religious teachings won't allow this. That is why
religion has to die out. It is a barrier against respect of any kind that
teaches human beings that they are worthless and probably going to hell
forever. it teaches men that they are better than women and is, therefore,
the true cause of much of the world's ills. Religion isn't just a crock; it
is a dangerous crock.
Laulak Siddique
Women are not possessions, however they do get attacked. There is a
difference between the way things are and the way things should be.
Islam deals with the world the way it is.
ls
Mickey
>There's a difference. Human rights are those rights which
>the HUMANs think all humans should have. God knows better what
>rights His creation should have.
How far do you think you're going to get with the above in a newsgroup
called alt.atheism? This is one point specifically where we will never
reach a point of agreement. You are entitled to your beliefs and I am
entitled to mine (non-religious, of course.)
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>
>There are no human rights in Islam. Islam has GOD GIVEN rights.
>There's a difference. Human rights are those rights which
>the HUMANs think all humans should have. God knows better what
>rights His creation should have.
>
>
You said it, Muslims has GOD GIVEN rights, BUT....
Since there is no God then there is no rights, that's why all Muslim
countries are nothing more then theocratic dictatorships
And God can not know better if such nonsense do not exist....
But wait a minute.... God does indeed exist...
in the dogmatic stories forced upon the helpless masses that can't
tell between right or wrong....
And if anyone ask questions he is branded as heretic and executed fast
before he contaminates others.
After all. we are talking about the livelihood of armies of clergy men
and the power of their leaders and this can't be allowed to continue
is it ??
>
>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
>
There is still NO ALLAH, NO YAHVEH, NO FATHER. wake up man...
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G.M.B a # 557
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:10:38 GMT, ath...@atheism.com (G.M.B. a #
>557) wrote:
>
>
>>Will this tragedy happen under Judaism or Christianity or any other
>>religion ??
>
>It has happened under Christianity in the past but I don't believe
>such people were real Christians to start with, I know you will
>disagree with this but that's fair enough.
>
>Likewise it is happening now in Israel/Palestine.
>
>It is highly unlikely to happen again in the west since religion and
>state were separated.
>
>>Now you know why so many muslims lately immigrate to the west, 30% for
>>economic and 70% for religious reasons, and even if in the beginning
>>they stick to Islam, it is a matter of time before they become free
>>people. Democracy is badly contaminating.
>
>Not sure of the above but here (in Australia) the majority of Muslims
>remain Muslims, from one generation to the next.
>
Don't look at the kettle but to its content,
Islam doesn't tolerate desertion to other faiths and punishes it with
death.
Moreover, no Muslim will dare declare that he no longer believe in
Allah, that's a death sentence for sure.
So don't expect your Australian Muslims to be too open.
But dig a bit into them and you will be surprised,
I was last year in a tour where several Australian Muslims
participated. They professed loyalty to islam, but they behaved
anything but.
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>In article <3624a826...@news.comm-plus.net> gry...@comm-plus.net writes:
>>
>>So why punish the women by making them wear something?
>>
>
>It's not a punishment. Many women chose to wear them because
>they feel dignified in the dress. Muslim women in USA
>chose to wear the hijab, also in Europe. No one's forcing
>them.
>
No one is forcing them....
Oh, it is the ""strongly"" recommended....
>
>>Why not make the men wear little spiky collars (spikes turned inward)
>>around their penises so that if they try to get an erection to rape
>>someone, they hurt themselves on the spikes. They used to make those
>>things during the Victorian era, only they would be modified so that
>>they could only come off at home (say, via a key wired to the bedroom
>>wall). *That* would cure the problem.
>>
>
>I understand your anger towards men
>
>
>
>
>>You'll notice that the men who rape, regardless of where they are,
>>have no self-control, and that's why they sometimes rape old ladies --
>>*not* because the person looks good or has revealing clothing, because
>>in that case the risks would be much higher, except for litle old
>>ladies. They rape because they can't control themselves.
>>
>
>I agree that rape is not necessarily related to how women dress.
>However won't you agree that sexual harassment has a lot
>to do with how women dress?
>
Sexual harrasment is not due to the dress, it is part of the human
psyche, and when it is whitin acceptable bounds, it is a compliment
to the nice looking woman.
Have you ever seen someone sexually harrasing an ugly looking woman ??
>
>
>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
>
Sorry, there is still NO ALLAH, NO YAHVEH NO FATHER...
It is still a lie with which to threaten the gullibles and keep them
scared and in line.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G.M.B. a # 557
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
>In article <364ef88e...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>
>>So why should religion control such things? Shouldn't the state
>>protect it's citizens?
>
>Yes, the state should protect citizens. That's not the question.
>The question is why is it not working in USA, Europe, etc
>where there is not religion at state level?
> following statistics, written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's
> office at Queen's University:
>
> * In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes",
> * 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their
> lives",
> * 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime",
> * 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or
> university, and
> * A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would
> commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get
> caught."
>
> Something is fundamentally wrong in the society we live in. A radical
> change in the society's life style and culture is absolutely necessary. A
> culture of modesty is badly needed, modesty in dress, in speech, and in
> manners of both men and women. Otherwise, the grim statistics will grow
> even worse day after day and , unfortunately, women alone will be paying
> the price.
>
Our society will be well and free when you leave Canada and go back
home to the desert where you say it is so much better then here.
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
And before you leave, don't forget to take your Allah with you,
someone here may rape him....
in this society of rapists and sex harrasers you so malign.
G.M.B. a # 557
wrote:
> gry...@comm-plus.net writes:
> >We also don't board up the windows and hide from the robbers.
> >Jessica Wolfman
>
>Well Jessica, I can talk about the hijab and it's benefits, and you'll
>keep saying something to oppose it, and this can go on for ever. If you
>really want to know what hijab is, you have to try it. Give it a try. Can
>I make a suggestion? Put on a hijab and try it for a week. Go to school
>while wearing it, or at your work place, go to shopping with it on, just
>try it for a week, and the experience will be well worth it.You'll see how
>people treat you differently. You may see how it really is. You might
>actually like it, if you're not biased. Give it a shot, and see for
>yourself. Good luck.
>I have to warn you that you may get discriminated against, or
>you may get some racist comments passed on you by ignorant people.
>Comments like "this is America!", or "go back to your camel land!".
>What do you think? Won't this give you a first hand experience
>of what it's REALLY like as opposed to what it "appears" to be?
>
>If you do chose to try it, please let me know what your experience and
>thoughts were afterwards. I'd be happy to know.
>
That's very strong brainwashing man, we abhor this type of nonsense
here, especially from someone who say we are all rapists and sex
harrasers,
May your Allah that do not exist, send you some common sense.
AMIN.
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Allah, no god except Allah, the Creator, The One, The Merciful, The
> Forgiving, The Compassionate, Allah The God Of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
> Muhammad (peace upon them all) true Prophets of God.
>
BS...BS...BS....BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...BS...
G.M.B. a # 557
<j...@jgbudworth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <adam3F0...@netcom.com>, Malcolm X Jihad
><ad...@netcom.com> writes
>>In article <363aef8c...@newnews.dial.pipex.com>
>>maf...@dial.pipex.com (maff91) writes:
>>>
>>>So if the Muslim men are so pure, why the need to have these
>>>injunctions in the Quran?
>>>
>>
>>No man is safe from temptations, whether he be a Jew, Christian,
>>atheist, etc. Not all Muslim men are pure, they should try to
>>strive had and do jihad against the 'self' and ego to purify
>>themselves.
>>
>>You mentioned that men should control themselves. To a certain
>>extent that is true, but the women should also do thier part.
>
>I agree. They should stop attacking men and demanding sex from
>them immediately.
>
>>Do you lock your home to protect it or do you leave it unlocked
>>because robbers should conrol themselves?
>
>Why do you persistently compare women with possessions? Could it
>be that you think they are possessions?
>--
>June G
># 364
>
Lucky we get from time to time those monkeys (xtians, muslims, etc)
to amuse us June, what would we do without them ??
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, I have this IRC program that you call ICQ.
Now what ??
IRC stands for "Internet Relay Chat""
what ICQ stands for ??
G.M.B. a # 557