Mythological Artwork
Elroy Willis
Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Denis Loubet
"Elroy Willis" <e...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:td7i10t1kmjclh5c8...@4ax.com...
>
> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>
> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>
> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
I have no idea who's who, but the symbols are astrological. Note the two
fish and the bull on the extreme right.
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Dan Baldwin
>
> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>
> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
Based on what he appears to be doing I'd say the fellow in the lower
left is supposed to be Ilya at the library.
>
> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
On a serious note : those are zodiacal signs. I can pick out a goat
(Capricorn), fish (Pieces), scales, and a crab.
--
Dan Baldwin, unethical *by design*
"I have always thought that the reason Dinosaurs were so big is because
of the dramatic difference in gravitational strength between that time
period and now" -Edmo the paleontologist
"Christ was just an enlightened person, not unlike me." -Edmo the humble
"I am an authority, and I do not force my views on others like you do."
-Edmo, enemy of Irony Meters all over Usenet
"It's not Latin, clueless wannabe tryhard." -Fucknozzle Junior
discussing the phrase 'Illegimati non carborundum'(sic)
Hail the un-alive
Gregory Gadow
> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
A more detailed image:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/p/poussin/2a/16helios.jpg
> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
That would be Phaeton. Notice that he is kneeling in supplication,
wearing a sky colored robe and gesturing to the chariot being prepared in
the background. Helios would be the one in the sun colored robe and the
laurel wreath on his head (His Roman form, Apollo, held the laurel
sacred. And notice Apollo's lyre at Helios' arm? )
The poet Ovid tells a story about Phaeton (lit. "the Shining One") who
was a child of Helios conceived in a religious ritual. When Phaeton
discovered that he was the child of a god, he marched out to Helios'
palace and demanded an audience. Helios, pleased at the boy's courage and
determination, foolishly vowed an unbreakable to oath to give him
anything he desired. Phaeton wanted to drive the Chariot of the Sun
across the sky. At the reigns, Phaeton's inexperience caused him to
stampede way off course, threatening both heaven and earth. He nearly ran
in to several of the signs of the zodiac (related to the golden arch in
the picture) and, after a scarey encounter with Scorpio, he dropped the
reigns entirely, letting the wild horses of the sun gallop where they
would. He caused so much damage that Helios was forced to beg Zeus to
strike the boy down, lest he set mortal and immortal lands to
devestation. The story is a parable about the dangers of overreaching
your lot in life.
As for the seasons, there are four other non-winged persons. I would
thing the woman in the green robe beside Helios would be Spring, and the
woman in the red robe at her feet is Summer. The sleeping (drunk?) man on
the brown cloak, with grape leaves on one side and the overflowing
cornucopia on the other is undoubtedly Autumn. The old man shivering from
cold between the braziers would be Winter.
I'm inclined to think that the other major figure, the older, winged man
bearing a load, is Saturn. I don't recall any association of Saturn in
Ovid's myth. I'm guessing that he is displaying some kind of law books;
they resemble period depictions of the stone tablets of the Ten
Commandments. This would reinforce the message that the promise Helios
made was unbreakable. It might also be a symbol of doom, as he was a
victim of his own son, Zeus.
> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
Zodiac symbols. Interestingly enough, the painter placed Libra, the
Scales of Justice, immediately over Phaeton's head. Just one of those
little symbolic things that make interpreting art so much fun :-) Notice
also that the sky is smokey, almost as if the earth were already in
flames.
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis wrote:
>> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
>> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
> Based on what he appears to be doing I'd say the fellow in the lower
> left is supposed to be Ilya at the library.
He looks like he's reading something to you?
>> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
> On a serious note : those are zodiacal signs. I can pick out a goat
> (Capricorn), fish (Pieces), scales, and a crab.
I think I see two fish at two o'clock, but I could just be
hallucinating or seeing things that aren't really there...
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis wrote:
>> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
> A more detailed image:
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/p/poussin/2a/16helios.jpg
Interesting...
>> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
>> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
> That would be Phaeton. Notice that he is kneeling in supplication,
Yeah, I can see that he's on his knees.
> wearing a sky colored robe and gesturing to the chariot being prepared
> in the background.
A chariot in the background? You're talking about his left hand
pointing to something right?
> Helios would be the one in the sun colored robe and the laurel wreath
> on his head (His Roman form, Apollo, held the laurel sacred. And notice
> Apollo's lyre at Helios' arm? )
> The poet Ovid tells a story about Phaeton (lit. "the Shining One") who
> was a child of Helios conceived in a religious ritual. When Phaeton
> discovered that he was the child of a god, he marched out to Helios'
> palace and demanded an audience. Helios, pleased at the boy's courage and
> determination, foolishly vowed an unbreakable to oath to give him
> anything he desired. Phaeton wanted to drive the Chariot of the Sun
> across the sky. At the reigns, Phaeton's inexperience caused him to
> stampede way off course, threatening both heaven and earth. He nearly ran
> in to several of the signs of the zodiac (related to the golden arch in
> the picture) and, after a scarey encounter with Scorpio, he dropped the
> reigns entirely, letting the wild horses of the sun gallop where they
> would. He caused so much damage that Helios was forced to beg Zeus to
> strike the boy down, lest he set mortal and immortal lands to
> devestation. The story is a parable about the dangers of overreaching
> your lot in life.
> As for the seasons, there are four other non-winged persons.
I can definitely see at least four winged beings. There might be
other wings hidden or implied behind one thing or another, so it's
hard to tell for sure.
> I would thing the woman in the green robe beside Helios would be
> Spring, and the woman in the red robe at her feet is Summer. The
> sleeping (drunk?) man on the brown cloak, with grape leaves on one
> side and the overflowing cornucopia on the other is undoubtedly Autumn.
> The old man shivering from cold between the braziers would be Winter.
I dunno what to make of it, but if you focus on the red, white, and
blue tunics, you might be able to imagine america and our flag.
Red white and blue you know. Toss in some stars, and there you
have it, except for the green. The greenies are obviously the tree
huggers and environmentalists, don't you think?
>> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
> Zodiac symbols. Interestingly enough, the painter placed Libra, the
> Scales of Justice, immediately over Phaeton's head. Just one of those
> little symbolic things that make interpreting art so much fun :-) Notice
> also that the sky is smokey, almost as if the earth were already in
> flames.
Are those two half moons at the top of the head of the guy in
the blue tunic?
Gregory Gadow
> Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote in alt.atheism
>
> > Elroy Willis wrote:
>
> >> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
> >> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
> >> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>
> > A more detailed image:
> > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/p/poussin/2a/16helios.jpg
>
> Interesting...
>
> >> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> >> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>
> > That would be Phaeton. Notice that he is kneeling in supplication,
>
> Yeah, I can see that he's on his knees.
>
> > wearing a sky colored robe and gesturing to the chariot being prepared
> > in the background.
>
> A chariot in the background? You're talking about his left hand
> pointing to something right?
Yes. It is rather difficult to see in either your image or mine, but it is
there. The two winged figures in the background are preparing a chariot that is
mostly obscured by Saturn. If you look at the space between Saturn and Summer,
you can see the chariot's wheel.
> > Helios would be the one in the sun colored robe and the laurel wreath
> > on his head (His Roman form, Apollo, held the laurel sacred. And notice
> > Apollo's lyre at Helios' arm? )
>
> > The poet Ovid tells a story about Phaeton (lit. "the Shining One") who
> > was a child of Helios conceived in a religious ritual. When Phaeton
> > discovered that he was the child of a god, he marched out to Helios'
> > palace and demanded an audience. Helios, pleased at the boy's courage and
> > determination, foolishly vowed an unbreakable to oath to give him
> > anything he desired. Phaeton wanted to drive the Chariot of the Sun
> > across the sky. At the reigns, Phaeton's inexperience caused him to
> > stampede way off course, threatening both heaven and earth. He nearly ran
> > in to several of the signs of the zodiac (related to the golden arch in
> > the picture) and, after a scarey encounter with Scorpio, he dropped the
> > reigns entirely, letting the wild horses of the sun gallop where they
> > would. He caused so much damage that Helios was forced to beg Zeus to
> > strike the boy down, lest he set mortal and immortal lands to
> > devestation. The story is a parable about the dangers of overreaching
> > your lot in life.
>
> > As for the seasons, there are four other non-winged persons.
>
> I can definitely see at least four winged beings. There might be
> other wings hidden or implied behind one thing or another, so it's
> hard to tell for sure.
Ovid spends some time describing Helios' court. Among the hangers-on were the
Hours, the Days, the Seasons, the Winds and various other representations of
time and weather. The two winged figures in the background are probably Aurora
(the woman in the yellow dress) and the First Hour (it looks like a horse he
has in his arms); they had the job of preparing the chariot and greeting the
new day. You may notice that they have wings more remincent of a dragonfly than
the bird wings of Saturn; this is probably because both Dawn and the Hours
flitted by so quickly. I don't think the babies around Spring have wings; they
might just be representations of Spring's fertility.
> > I would thing the woman in the green robe beside Helios would be
> > Spring, and the woman in the red robe at her feet is Summer. The
> > sleeping (drunk?) man on the brown cloak, with grape leaves on one
> > side and the overflowing cornucopia on the other is undoubtedly Autumn.
> > The old man shivering from cold between the braziers would be Winter.
>
> I dunno what to make of it, but if you focus on the red, white, and
> blue tunics, you might be able to imagine america and our flag.
> Red white and blue you know. Toss in some stars, and there you
> have it, except for the green. The greenies are obviously the tree
> huggers and environmentalists, don't you think?
Bah! You are reading far more in to this Renaissance painting than could
possibly be there :-P
> >> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
>
> > Zodiac symbols. Interestingly enough, the painter placed Libra, the
> > Scales of Justice, immediately over Phaeton's head. Just one of those
> > little symbolic things that make interpreting art so much fun :-) Notice
> > also that the sky is smokey, almost as if the earth were already in
> > flames.
>
> Are those two half moons at the top of the head of the guy in
> the blue tunic?
That's the sign for Libra. If you look closely, you will see some lines coming
up from the semi-circles and forming a point. The two points are joined by a
horizontal line bisected by a vertical line... the balances of the scale and
the central fulcrum. It looks rather like the scales are suspended from
Spring's forearm.
Dan Baldwin
>
> Dan Baldwin <Dan_B...@invalid.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>
> > Elroy Willis wrote:
>
> >> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
> >> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
> >> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>
> >> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> >> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>
> > Based on what he appears to be doing I'd say the fellow in the lower
> > left is supposed to be Ilya at the library.
>
> He looks like he's reading something to you?
Sorry, that was a little insular reference for the folks back in the
'strology group.
> >> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
>
> > On a serious note : those are zodiacal signs. I can pick out a goat
> > (Capricorn), fish (Pieces), scales, and a crab.
>
> I think I see two fish at two o'clock, but I could just be
> hallucinating or seeing things that aren't really there...
A few others have pointed the rest of these out so no need for me to as
well.
Cujo
> Dan Baldwin <Dan_B...@invalid.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>
>> Elroy Willis wrote:
>
>>> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>
>>> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>
>>> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>
>>> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
>>> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>
>> Based on what he appears to be doing I'd say the fellow in the lower
>> left is supposed to be Ilya at the library.
>
> He looks like he's reading something to you?
Ilya Shambat managed to do something few kooks have ever managed in one
of the bestest self-larts ever.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020617195307/http://wildcat.arizona.edu/pape
rs/93/159/07_1_m.html
or http://tinyurl.com/uf37
Page down about halfway and remove cats and coffee. He even tops Georgann
having sex with a deity. He did it all by himself too.
Full poast and theme song:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=WOT5CWO737935.8504166667%
40Gilgamesh-frog.org&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych.
Winner of the 8/2000 & 2/2003 HL&S award. Hail Petitmorte!
Colonel of the Fanatic Legion. FL# 555-PLNTY Motto: ABUNDANCE!.
Official TruKook(tm) as certified by Ed Wollmann. Meow.
"Its so comforting knowing you will never have a man." - Ed whispering
sweet nothings to his blowup doll.
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis wrote:
>> Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote in alt.atheism
>>> Elroy Willis wrote:
>>>> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>>>> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>>>> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>>> A more detailed image:
>>> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/p/poussin/2a/16helios.jpg
>> Interesting...
>>>> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
>>>> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>>> That would be Phaeton. Notice that he is kneeling in supplication,
>> Yeah, I can see that he's on his knees.
>>> wearing a sky colored robe and gesturing to the chariot being prepared
>>> in the background.
>> A chariot in the background? You're talking about his left hand
>> pointing to something right?
> Yes. It is rather difficult to see in either your image or mine, but it is
> there. The two winged figures in the background are preparing a chariot
> that is mostly obscured by Saturn. If you look at the space between Saturn
> and Summer, you can see the chariot's wheel.
I still don't see it.
>>> Helios would be the one in the sun colored robe and the laurel wreath
>>> on his head (His Roman form, Apollo, held the laurel sacred. And notice
>>> Apollo's lyre at Helios' arm? )
>>> The poet Ovid tells a story about Phaeton (lit. "the Shining One") who
>>> was a child of Helios conceived in a religious ritual. When Phaeton
>>> discovered that he was the child of a god, he marched out to Helios'
>>> palace and demanded an audience. Helios, pleased at the boy's courage and
>>> determination, foolishly vowed an unbreakable to oath to give him
>>> anything he desired. Phaeton wanted to drive the Chariot of the Sun
>>> across the sky. At the reigns, Phaeton's inexperience caused him to
>>> stampede way off course, threatening both heaven and earth. He nearly ran
>>> into several of the signs of the zodiac (related to the golden arch in
>>> the picture) and, after a scarey encounter with Scorpio, he dropped the
>>> reigns entirely, letting the wild horses of the sun gallop where they
>>> would. He caused so much damage that Helios was forced to beg Zeus to
>>> strike the boy down, lest he set mortal and immortal lands to
>>> devestation. The story is a parable about the dangers of overreaching
>>> your lot in life.
The story could be said to describe the reason why the sun wanders
through the zodiac, and even why it seems to be dying during the
winter, as the days get shorter and shorter, perhaps?
>>> As for the seasons, there are four other non-winged persons.
>> I can definitely see at least four winged beings. There might be
>> other wings hidden or implied behind one thing or another, so it's
>> hard to tell for sure.
> Ovid spends some time describing Helios' court. Among the hangers-on were the
> Hours, the Days, the Seasons, the Winds and various other representations of
> time and weather. The two winged figures in the background are probably Aurora
> (the woman in the yellow dress) and the First Hour (it looks like a horse he
> has in his arms); they had the job of preparing the chariot and greeting the
> new day.
> You may notice that they have wings more remincent of a dragonfly than
> the bird wings of Saturn; this is probably because both Dawn and the Hours
> flitted by so quickly. I don't think the babies around Spring have wings; they
> might just be representations of Spring's fertility.
Interesting. I can see a connection with nymphs as well, since they
were mythological fluttering creatures, usually female, tied to
fertility, with dragonfly like wings. Nymph is even used to describe
young or immature insects such as dragonflies which end up growing
wings.
>>> I would thing the woman in the green robe beside Helios would be
>>> Spring, and the woman in the red robe at her feet is Summer. The
>>> sleeping (drunk?) man on the brown cloak, with grape leaves on one
>>> side and the overflowing cornucopia on the other is undoubtedly Autumn.
>>> The old man shivering from cold between the braziers would be Winter.
>> I dunno what to make of it, but if you focus on the red, white, and
>> blue tunics, you might be able to imagine america and our flag.
>> Red white and blue you know. Toss in some stars, and there you
>> have it, except for the green. The greenies are obviously the tree
>> huggers and environmentalists, don't you think?
> Bah! You are reading far more in to this Renaissance painting than could
> possibly be there :-P
I know. It was painted long before the American flag came about. I
was just playing around with colors for fun.
>>>> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
>>> Zodiac symbols. Interestingly enough, the painter placed Libra, the
>>> Scales of Justice, immediately over Phaeton's head. Just one of those
>>> little symbolic things that make interpreting art so much fun :-) Notice
>>> also that the sky is smokey, almost as if the earth were already in
>>> flames.
>> Are those two half moons at the top of the head of the guy in
>> the blue tunic?
> That's the sign for Libra. If you look closely, you will see some lines coming
> up from the semi-circles and forming a point. The two points are joined by a
> horizontal line bisected by a vertical line... the balances of the scale and
> the central fulcrum. It looks rather like the scales are suspended from
> Spring's forearm.
Yeah, I can see the faint lines of the scale when I look close enough.
Elroy Willis
> As for the seasons, there are four other non-winged persons. I would
> thing the woman in the green robe beside Helios would be Spring, and the
> woman in the red robe at her feet is Summer. The sleeping (drunk?) man on
> the brown cloak, with grape leaves on one side and the overflowing
> cornucopia on the other is undoubtedly Autumn. The old man shivering from
> cold between the braziers would be Winter.
I have read a few different articles which say that Da Vinci's Last
Supper has the four seasons shown in it as well, but I can't see it
when I look at the painting. What do you make of that idea?
Edmond Wollmann
> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus.
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 2004 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Artworks http://www.astroconsulting.com/personal/
AOL http://hometown.aol.com/ehwollmann/myhomepage/business.html
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis <e...@airmail.net> wrote in message
>> Can anybody identify the individual characters in the painting below?
>> http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin20.html
>> I couldn't find any commentary on it, so I thought I'd ask here.
>> It's supposed to be a painting of Helios and Phaeton with Saturn and
>> the Four Seasons. Is Saturn the one in the blue tunic?
>> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
> Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus.
Which age do you think the painter was trying to imply that the
characters were currently in, and why?
B. Kildow
There's a description of what's represented in the painting here:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/p/poussin/2a/16helios.html
BK
Elroy Willis
> Elroy Willis wrote:
>> Dan Baldwin <Dan_B...@invalid.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>>>> What are the symbols on the golden arch in the upper right?
>>> On a serious note : those are zodiacal signs. I can pick out a goat
>>> (Capricorn), fish (Pieces), scales, and a crab.
>> I think I see two fish at two o'clock, but I could just be
>> hallucinating or seeing things that aren't really there...
> There's a description of what's represented in the painting here:
> http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/p/poussin/2a/16helios.html
The sun god, helios, looks to have some type of head dressing, but I
can't tell what it is. I've read that the "wreaths" and "halos"
surrounding the heads of the different characters in paintings
throughout the centuries were meant to indicate that those characters
were actual astronomical objects up in the sky, that everyone could
see if they knew where to look, like the sun, and planets, and the
different constellations.
Jesus' crown of thorns is said by some to be representative of the sun
and the rays of the sun.
Jesus even compared himself to the sun in the following Bible verse:
John 11:9
"Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who
walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light."
If that isn't an indication that Jesus was a sun god, I don't know
what is.
To some Christians, though, it seems to be a reason to pity Jesus,
instead of elevating him to the status of a sun god such as Ra or
Amen-Ra. Weird, I think. I've said before, and I'll say it again,
that if we lived in a binary star system, that someone would have
invented a story about two "suns of god" dying for mankind, instead
of just one.
Larry Caldwell
Gadow) says...
> I'm inclined to think that the other major figure, the older, winged man
> bearing a load, is Saturn. I don't recall any association of Saturn in
> Ovid's myth.
Is he carrying a load, or playing a syrinx? I don't know of any
association of Saturn with the syrnix, though.