If God exists, is he worthy of worship?

[Neil Kelsey]

He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?

No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
your sinful nature.

It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:33:49 -0400
Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
> for your sinful nature.

What are the other forms of punishment being practiced besides torture?

> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
> or not.

Many psychopathic mass-murderer types don't believe that they deserve
to be punished. Is that why so many join a religion while on death row?

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"Everything said in the context of a god being real is mere nonsense."
-- Darwin Bedford, Ambassador of Reason

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:

> > He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> your sinful nature.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture. Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.

> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.

I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is just or not. Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>> your sinful nature.
>
> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
>
> I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.

Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
eternally.

> Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.

Your ignorance of the attributes of God is a characteristic many in Hell
will have in common.

>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
>
> I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is just or not.
> Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.

You won't be tortured. You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:58:52 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >
> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >>
> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >> your sinful nature.
> >
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> > This is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
> >
> > I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>
> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just.

I disagree that torture is "just." I think torture is immoral. I don't see how God can be considered "holy" if he is the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring, except by people who are indifferent towards the concept of torture.

> Sin must be punished eternally.

I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished eternally.

> > Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> Your ignorance of the attributes of God is a characteristic many in Hell
> will have in common.

I'm not ignorant of the attributes of God, I quoted right from the Bible. The problem here is that you don't seem to grasp the concept of "torture." If anything it is you who is ignorant of the attributes of God.

> >> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
> >
> > I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is just or not.
> > Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.
>
> You won't be tortured.

According to the Bible I will. You have to redefine God to make it otherwise. I don't recognize your authority to redefine God.

> You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

I'll be tortured for being an unbeliever, it says so right in the Bible. Your inability to grasp this concept is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:58:52 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >
> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >>
> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >> your sinful nature.
> >
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,

> > the idolaters and all liars �they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> > This is the second death.� (Revelation 21:8)

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:

> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished eternally.

In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.

"He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."

Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?

[Andrew W]

"Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpbnvj$tgd$1...@speranza.aioe.org

Why punish us when we're here to learn from our mistakes and overcome the
dark?
And burning in hell IS torture. Eternal hell is insane and unnecessary.


--
If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it
contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon
the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings. ~Leonardo
da Vinci

Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory. ~Leonardo da Vinci

[Andrew W]

"Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org

The question is, what exactly is God?
No one knows for sure, unless you are God too that is.
There are dark forces trying to enslave humanity through fear and control.
So far Christianity ticks all the boxes for a dark cult of higher
dimensional cruel controllers and subjugators jockeying for control.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:24:33 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished eternally.
>
> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.

In my opening "Subject Header," I posed a conditional question, "If God exists, is he worthy of worship?" Note the word "if." Do I really need to spell out to you that if God does not exist then the conditional question in my subject line is irrelevant?

> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>
> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?

No, I'm asking whether God, assuming he exists, is worthy of worship, what with him being the leader of an organization whose mandate is to torture all non-members for eternity. You seem to prefer quibbling about language, or redefining God, or redefining torture to answering that question.

[MelissA]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:33:49 -0400
Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
> > can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
> for your sinful nature.
>

What's the difference?

> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
> or not.
>
>

Only punishment possible, is in real world ( as jail punishment,
if one commits crime).
There is no God... there is no Hell...there is no Heaven in the sky...

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:44:11 +1000, "Andrew W"
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>"Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
>>> eternally.
>>
>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>>
>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>
>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>>
>
>The question is, what exactly is God?
>No one knows for sure, unless you are God too that is.
>There are dark forces trying to enslave humanity through fear and control.
>So far Christianity ticks all the boxes for a dark cult of higher
>dimensional cruel controllers and subjugators jockeying for control.

Sigh.

This puts the cart before the horse by starting with the presumption
of a hypothetical god and then saying nobody knows.

I just wish people could step aside from their beliefs and at least
try to think outside the theist box.

It's no different than its exact equivalent...

The question is, what exactly is The Great Arkleseizure?
No one knows for sure, unless you are The Great Arkleseizure too

that is. There are dark forces trying to enslave humanity through

fear and control. So far the cult of the Great White Handkerchief

[MelissA]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:58:52 -0400
Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >
> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
> >>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >>
> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be
> >> punished, for your sinful nature.
> >
> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the
> > sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and
> > all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning
> > sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
> >
> > I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a
> > fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>
> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be
> punished eternally.

Non existent God is righteous tyrant as described in the Bible...
Human imagination of those times can't go very far ...
Kingdom in Heaven? Why not anarchy or democracy? ;)
Those people never new about democracy or any other form of
government ;)

>
> > Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common
> > with psychopaths.
>
> Your ignorance of the attributes of God is a characteristic many in
> Hell will have in common.

There is no Hell, there is no Heaven...

>
> >> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be
> >> punished, or not.
> >
> > I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is
> > just or not. Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.
>
> You won't be tortured. You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

Again, what's the difference? ;)
>
>

[Calvin Ramsey]

You asserted that God is, and that "he is, after all, the Ringleader of
an Eternal Torture Ring", which,
in effect, contradicts your question in the subject header.

And now you're saying something totally different from that.

You don't really know what you're saying, do you? You obviously have no
idea of who God is, or what his attributes are. And you're trying to use
one or two verses to pigeon-hole his entire personality. So it's you who
is trying to redefine God.

I'm glad I was able to arrive at that conclusion before I wasted any
more of my time.

Now go play your silly little word games with somebody else, you swine.


"For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips,
let them be trapped in their pride.
For the cursing and lies that they utter,
consume them in wrath;
consume them till they are no more."
--Psalm 59:12-13 (ESV)

[MelissA]

Only human want to be worshiped. Those people imagined God(s) as
powerful *humans* in the sky. Only human needs to be worshiped.
Also that does not makes it Holy or just. They just imagined
rulers like their kings with all attributes.
Who besides human would require prayer or to be worshiped?
Or require sacrifice of animals or humans?
These are all remnants of primitive mind of early civilizations...
They just didn't understood nature... so they invented
human kings who can rule quirks of nature. So they invented
all that stuff....

[MelissA]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 19:18:58 -0400
Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips,
> let them be trapped in their pride.
> For the cursing and lies that they utter,
> consume them in wrath;
> consume them till they are no more."
> --Psalm 59:12-13 (ESV)

So punishment for verbal delict is death?

>
>

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
> > On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >
> >> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
> >> eternally.
> >
> > In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
> >
> > "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
> >
> > Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
> >
>
> The question is, what exactly is God?

The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't have to spell that out.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 6:52 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:24:33 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished eternally.
> >>
> >> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
> >
> > In my opening "Subject Header," I posed a conditional question, "If God exists, is he worthy of worship?"
> > Note the word "if." Do I really need to spell out to you that if God does not exist then the conditional
> > question in my subject line is irrelevant?
> >
> >> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
> >>
> >> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
> >
> > No, I'm asking whether God, assuming he exists, is worthy of worship, what with him being the leader
> > of an organization whose mandate is to torture all non-members for eternity. You seem to prefer
> > quibbling about language, or redefining God, or redefining torture to answering that question.
>
> You asserted that God is, and that "he is, after all, the Ringleader of
> an Eternal Torture Ring", which,
> in effect, contradicts your question in the subject header.

No it doesn't. It's the logical conclusion from assuming God exists - according to the Bible he is a torturer of cosmic proportions.

> And now you're saying something totally different from that.

No, I'm asking whether God is worthy of worship (if he exists), since (according to the Bible) he is the ringleader of an eternal torture ring. I think torture is immoral and wrong; I'm always astonished when people (like you) try to defend it.

> You don't really know what you're saying, do you?

Yes, I do. You don't know what I'm saying (or asking). Or rather, you're pretending you don't.

> You obviously have no
> idea of who God is,

Sure I do. According to the Bible, he's a torturer of monumental proportions. If he exists he tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity. Your indifference to this aspect of your religion is disturbing.

> or what his attributes are.

His attributes include "mass torturer." It's right there in Revelations.

> And you're trying to use
> one or two verses to pigeon-hole his entire personality.

How can God be considered to be "perfectly good" if he tortures most people who have ever lived for all eternity? Your inability to grasp this point is disturbed.

> So it's you who
> is trying to redefine God.

No, I'm quoting right out of the Bible, where it says that God is a torturer.

> I'm glad I was able to arrive at that conclusion before I wasted any
> more of my time.

That's the same kind of faulty reasoning that allows you to think that God exists in the first place.

> Now go play your silly little word games with somebody else, you swine.

You think torture is just and you call people "swine" when they disagree with you. You're making a great case for your religion.

> "For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips,
> let them be trapped in their pride.
> For the cursing and lies that they utter,
> consume them in wrath;
> consume them till they are no more."
> --Psalm 59:12-13 (ESV)

Punishment fantasies are so revealing. Once again, psychology explains religious belief better that the religious can.

[raven1]

And there, folks, is all you need to know about the psychopath Calvin
Ramsey, in his own words.

---
raven1
aa # 1096
EAC Vice President (President in charge of vice)
BAAWA Knight

[raven1]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 15:08:18 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey
<neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.
>
>I'll be tortured for being an unbeliever, it says so right in the Bible.
>Your inability to grasp this concept is a trait you share in common
>with psychopaths.

*Cough*. That Calvin *is* a psychopath is abundantly clear from
everything he writes. Calvinism is a religion of pure evil.

[raven1]

Your inability to grasp the concept of hypothetical statements is
almost comical. IF the God of The Bible existed as depicted, it could
be described as above. This isn't the first time you've fallen into
this pitfall.

[Jeanne Douglas]

In article <2acdfce2-7c61-479d...@googlegroups.com>,

And here we have the explanation for why so many right-wingers think
water-boarding isn't torture.

--
JD

"the lybian lier"

[Andrew W]

"Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1b85d325-e68b-4811...@googlegroups.com

> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
>>>> eternally.
>>>
>>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>>>
>>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>>
>>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>>>
>>
>> The question is, what exactly is God?
>
> The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your
> reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't
> have to spell that out.
>

For all we know the Bible god could have been extraterrestrials or negative
paranormal entities.
In fact scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former.

[linuxgal]

Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> your sinful nature.

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
with a sinful nature.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:16:15 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
> "Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1b85d325-e68b-4811...@googlegroups.com
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
> >> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
> >>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
> >>>> eternally.
> >>>
> >>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
> >>>
> >>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
> >>>
> >>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
> >>>
> >>
> >> The question is, what exactly is God?
> >
> > The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your
> > reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't
> > have to spell that out.
> >
>
> For all we know the Bible god could have been extraterrestrials or negative
> paranormal entities.

I wasn't asking if God exists or not, or where he came from. I was asking "if God exists is he worthy of worship?" Because I think/hope I would refuse to worship him if he did exist, on the grounds that he is a psychopathic mass torturer.

> In fact scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former.

They aren't finding any *valid* evidence for the former. I'm only interested in valid evidence.

Let me ask you this: if God is an extraterrestrial and he tortures people for eternity, is he worthy of worship?

[Neil Kelsey]

If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:16:15 +1000, "Andrew W"
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>"Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1b85d325-e68b-4811...@googlegroups.com
>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
>>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>>>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
>>>>> eternally.
>>>>
>>>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>>>>
>>>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>>>
>>>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The question is, what exactly is God?
>>
>> The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your
>> reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't
>> have to spell that out.
>>
>
>For all we know the Bible god could have been extraterrestrials or negative
>paranormal entities.
>In fact scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former.

Which scientists?

[raven1]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:16:15 +1000, "Andrew W"
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>"Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1b85d325-e68b-4811...@googlegroups.com
>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
>>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>>>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
>>>>> eternally.
>>>>
>>>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>>>>
>>>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>>>
>>>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The question is, what exactly is God?
>>
>> The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your
>> reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't
>> have to spell that out.
>>
>
>For all we know the Bible god could have been extraterrestrials or negative
>paranormal entities.
>In fact scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former.

Please do share!

[Christopher A. Lee]

Infinite punishment for a finite "offence" that is very minor.

[linuxgal]

I don't even want to watch movies about fictional characters being
tortured.

[Neil Kelsey]

I empathize. I think that makes both you and I more loving than Jesus/God, which isn't saying much.

[Andrew W]

"Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:29e1905a-bacb-469c...@googlegroups.com

Of course not.
And if he is God and has everything then why would he need it? Unless of
course he needs his ego to be polished constantly.

[Andrew W]

"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:9d5jr755r3rv79uog...@4ax.com

Ones like Michael Cremo and many others.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 12:56:26 +1000, "Andrew W"

Never heard of him.

What is his evidence, and how does he reach that conclusion?

Because there is nothing to suggest that the Bible god is anything
more than a myth let alone a space alien.

Or has Cremo been reading Von Danniken?

[Andrew W]

"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:avdjr7td9us4av738...@4ax.com

Of course. Neither have most other regular people who only watch the
mainstream media. Unless you study more unconventional sciences you won't
hear of them.

>
> What is his evidence, and how does he reach that conclusion?
>

His evidence is archiological.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv-DcREegqg

>
> Because there is nothing to suggest that the Bible god is anything
> more than a myth let alone a space alien.
>

Depends on how you read it.

>
> Or has Cremo been reading Von Danniken?
>

No.

[Olrik]

Le 2012-05-20 17:58, Calvin Ramsey a écrit :

>> Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.
>

> You won't be tortured. You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

Are you saying that you don't have a «sinful nature»?

[Olrik]

:-)

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:52:35 +1000, "Andrew W"

In other words it's not science but pseudo-science and he's a
crackpot.

Thanks for clearing that up.

>> What is his evidence, and how does he reach that conclusion?
>>
>
>His evidence is archiological.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv-DcREegqg

Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha........

>> Because there is nothing to suggest that the Bible god is anything
>> more than a myth let alone a space alien.
>
>Depends on how you read it.

Depends on whether or not you are uneducated, ignorant and gullible.

>> Or has Cremo been reading Von Danniken?
>
>No.

He sounds a similar loonie.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

No it doesn't, because some people actually want to be tortured; it's a
fetish that requires an atheistic version of "do unto others as you
would have them done to you" (which is actually an imposition) which
should really be "do unto others as they wish to be treated."

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess
"I have about 100 pairs of pajamas; I like to see people dressed
comfortably."
-- Hugh Hefner

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 20:06:43 -0400
raven1 <quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:33:49 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
> <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
>>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
>> for your sinful nature.
>>
>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
>> or not.
>
> And there, folks, is all you need to know about the psychopath Calvin
> Ramsey, in his own words.

These words you wrote a while back are fitting right about now:

"Sure is dark under that bridge..."
-- The Raven (February 11, 2012)

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Any thinking is not good for religion -- their way leads to yet
another sect forming; rational thinking leads away from deism."
-- Mike Painter (February 18, 2012)

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

It was probably intended for poets, whose ideas can sometimes be the
initiators of grass roots movements and inspire real change, all of
which is a serious threat to oppressive regimes.

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine."
-- Sir Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Neil Kelsey]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:21:11 PM UTC-7, Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 19:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:40:14 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
> > > Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
> > > >> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> > > >>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring.
> > > >>>> How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> > > >>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be
> > > >>> punished, for your sinful nature.
> > > >> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by
> > > >> God, and if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished
> > > >> for making man with a sinful nature.
> > > >
> > > > If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
> > >
> > > I don't even want to watch movies about fictional characters being
> > > tortured.
> >
> > I empathize. I think that makes both you and I more loving than
> > Jesus/God, which isn't saying much.
>
> No it doesn't, because some people actually want to be tortured; it's a
> fetish that requires an atheistic version of "do unto others as you
> would have them done to you" (which is actually an imposition) which
> should really be "do unto others as they wish to be treated."

You're joking, right?

[Neil Kelsey]

If that's the case then Bible God cannot be an extraterrestrial, because he certainly seems to need to torture people for eternity. Lots of them.

> Unless of
> course he needs his ego to be polished constantly.

Have these scientists you've mentioned found evidence for egotistical extraterrestrials?

[Don Martin]

"Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess"

<god...@fidemturbare.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 19:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:40:14 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
>>> Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
>>>>> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring.
>>>>>>> How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be
>>>>>> punished, for your sinful nature.
>>>>> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by
>>>>> God, and if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished
>>>>> for making man with a sinful nature.
>>>>
>>>> If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>>>
>>> I don't even want to watch movies about fictional characters being
>>> tortured.
>>
>> I empathize. I think that makes both you and I more loving than
>> Jesus/God, which isn't saying much.
>
> No it doesn't, because some people actually want to be tortured; it's a
> fetish that requires an atheistic version of "do unto others as you
> would have them done to you" (which is actually an imposition) which
> should really be "do unto others as they wish to be treated."

I still prefer the "silver rule," of "what you don't like, don't do to
anybody else," if only because I can know what I do not like, while it may
be difficult to learn what another person might prefer. This follows the
Hippocratic injunction of "Primum non nocere," or First, do no harm. If
somebody _wants_ to be tortured, they shall have to seek someone other than
myself to do the job.

--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/

[Don Martin]

Sure, via psychotherapy, since there cannot be pain worse for a rational
being than coming to understand the injustices it has inflicted.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Monday, May 21, 2012 6:29:48 AM UTC-7, Don Martin wrote:
> Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
> >> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
> >>>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >>>
> >>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >>> your sinful nature.
> >>
> >> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
> >> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
> >> with a sinful nature.
> >
> > If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>
> Sure, via psychotherapy, since there cannot be pain worse for a rational
> being than coming to understand the injustices it has inflicted.

While I get the joke, God cannot be considered rational until the psychotherapy has succeeded, at which point he would have to agree that it wasn't torture.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:29:44 GMT, Don Martin <drdon...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Both these are simplistic one-size-fits-all rules for unempathic
people who need them.

Their main drawback is that you put yourself in their shoes as
yourself, not them.

Which would take the empathy their audience doesn't have.

[thomas p.]

"Don Martin" <drdon...@comcast.net> skrev i meddelelsen
news:1219478808359299241.2384...@news20.forteinc.com...

Your'e just being cruel : )

>
> --
> aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
> BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
> Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
> The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/

--
thomas p

Ignorance is the mother of devotion.

David Hume

[Don Martin]

Mmmuwahhahaahaaa!

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:44:11 +1000
"Andrew W" <remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished
>>> eternally.
>>
>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>>

>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>

>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>
> The question is, what exactly is God?

It's a deity. Deities come in a variety of forms and with any number
of abilities, ethical and moral standards, personal preferences, etc.,
which invariably mimic human desires (both wants and needs). Here are
five quotations that should be helpful in exploring your question:

"God (n.); A casual and intellectually sparse rationalisation of nerve
impulses within the human brain, conflated with social and societal
expediencies, such as the division of labour and the wielding of
authority, resulting in a formal definition of a personification of an
authority that should not be questioned."
-- David Silverman, Defender of Civilisation

"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science, or
a dose of common sense."
-- Chapman Cohen

"God is a guess."
-- Dr. Albert Einstein

"God is dead."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

"God is a spirit. 0% proof!"
-- Barry O'Grady

> No one knows for sure, unless you are God too that is.

That's illogical because most of those people who created deities
know for sure. One doesn't have to be XYZ to understand XYZ, as
science has demonstrated repeatedly with "observation" and scientific
methodology throughout the ages.

Also, making a statement about what other people know without knowing
anything about those other people is a form of presumptuous arrogance
that doesn't have a reliable basis in fact.

> There are dark forces trying to enslave humanity through fear and
> control. So far Christianity ticks all the boxes for a dark cult of
> higher dimensional cruel controllers and subjugators jockeying for
> control.

The most effective tool of psychological enslavement is the imposing
of virtues and values, for one who completely lacks all virtues and
values is entirely free.

I would like some clarification, however, on what qualifies as "dark
forces" since I find this to be subjective and doesn't appear to be
considering "intent" as a factor -- some people who promote virtues and
values as they understand them as an incomplete subset of a religion
could be doing so with genuinely good intentions; the problem arises
when such a promotion succeeds in gaining a large enough following and
corrupt develops with the original leadership, or with new leadership
that replaces previously uncorruptable leadership.

> If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it
> contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must
> abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings.
> ~Leonardo da Vinci

I don't completely agree with this because Leonardo's using an absolute
that depends on an implicit requirement that one's own "experience that
something is a fact" is objective. He is making an interesting point
though with regard to the value of questioning authority.

> Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
> his intelligence; he is just using his memory. ~Leonardo da Vinci

Leonardo is describing the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy, and I
believe that he's correct.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Power doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt power."
-- William Gaddis

[Christopher A. Lee]

I found Cremo by accident while looking up somebody Jahnu cited - he's
not a scientist but a Hari Krishna loonie who like von Danniken
rationalises what he doesn't undertand "therefore it was a space
alien".

And this moron imagines a Hari Krishna loonie with no scientific
qualifications supports his obvious lie that "Bible god could have

been extraterrestrials or negative paranormal entities. In fact
scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former".

There is no such evidence whatsoever.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:23:07 -0700

I wonder if he's in the process of converting to Scientology?

> There is no such evidence whatsoever.

I haven't encountered any either.

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Dad! Tom Cruise won't come out of my closet!"
-- Stan Marsh

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:29:48 GMT
Don Martin <drdon...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
>>> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
>>>>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>>
>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be
>>>> punished, for your sinful nature.
>>>
>>> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by
>>> God, and if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished
>>> for making man with a sinful nature.
>>
>> If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>
> Sure, via psychotherapy, since there cannot be pain worse for a
> rational being than coming to understand the injustices it has
> inflicted.

Assuming, of course, that the subject is also capable of empathy.

I'm not entirely convinced that this is the very worst pain though as I
would have to say that being the victim of "betrayal" ranks very high up
on the list. (Additionally, betrayal doesn't "require" that the subject
be capable of empathy.)

--
Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"A moral being is one who is capable of reflecting on their past
actions and their motives; of approving of some and disapproving of
others."
-- Charles Darwin

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

Although the Hippocratic approach is more specific to the field of
medicine (and is an excellent ethical standard in my strong opinion,
which I suspect is likely also shared by many Star Trek fans), what
really impresses me with your perspective is that it subtly touches on
the idea that you are not obligated to serve others -- this speaks to
freedom, of course.

You provided a very interesting perspective by introducing the
Hippocratic injunction. Nicely done!

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's
observation, not overturning it."
-- Bulwer Lytton

[Christopher A. Lee]

That's all we need.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:10:26 -0700

Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:

You hit the bull's eye there. I suspect these rules were originally
emphasized with "good" intentions that were aimed at improving the way
people treated each other, most likely in a culture where there was a
severe lack of it.

Clever phrases tend to be memorable, and often impress people as wise,
so there was likely an intelligent marketing element behind it as well.

> Their main drawback is that you put yourself in their shoes as
> yourself, not them.
>
> Which would take the empathy their audience doesn't have.

The challenge is that people tend to lack the ability to see things
objectively and measure others based on standards of their own.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is
the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is
a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is
as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
-- Dr. Albert Einstein

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 04:20:57 -0700 (PDT)

No, and no. Regarding people wanting to be tortured, look up
"masochism" and "BDSM." Regarding the "do unto others..." slogan, my
suggestion for improving it is clearly justified with logical reasoning.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist
in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

[Alex W.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:48:23 -0700, Fidem Turbare, the

Ree of the old recipe for a perfect relationship: sadist and
masochist in perfect harmony. The masochist begs "hurt me", and
the sadist says "no".

[Christopher A. Lee]

The Marquis de Sade could claim the Golden Rule allowed him to hurt
others so they would hurt him.

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:46:29 -0700, "Fidem Turbare, the non-existent

I've noticed this is more common in the US than it was in the UK
before I moved here.

[duke]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:38:15 +1000, "Andrew W" <remove_...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

>"Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>news:jpbnvj$tgd$1...@speranza.aioe.org

>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
>> for your sinful nature.
>>

>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
>> or not.
>

>Why punish us when we're here to learn from our mistakes and overcome the
>dark?

You're only in trouble if you die without learning.

>And burning in hell IS torture. Eternal hell is insane and unnecessary.

Then learn.

duke - American American

*****
2012 - end of an error
Vote Republican in 2012
*****

[duke]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
>> Calvin Ramsey wrote:

>> > On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> >> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>> >> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>> >
>> > No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>> > your sinful nature.
>>

>> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
>> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
>> with a sinful nature.
>
>If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?

God's perfect.

[duke]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:46:09 -0700, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com> wrote:

>Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>> your sinful nature.
>
>That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
>if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
>with a sinful nature.

Nope. God wants your choice - accept his invitation or not. Unlike tao, which
doesn't care.

[duke]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 18:40:14 -0700, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com> wrote:

>Neil Kelsey wrote:

>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
>>> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>>>>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>>> your sinful nature.
>>> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
>>> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
>>> with a sinful nature.
>>

>> If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>

>I don't even want to watch movies about fictional characters being
>tortured.

It's not a movie when you experience real time.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Monday, May 21, 2012 12:58:50 PM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
> >> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> > On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >> >> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
> >> >> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >> >
> >> > No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >> > your sinful nature.
> >>
> >> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
> >> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
> >> with a sinful nature.
> >
> >If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>
> God's perfect.

So then you think torture is acceptable. That's a trait you share in common with psychopaths.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

Some degree of reciprocation is necessary for a healthy relationship
to withstand the tests of time, for a if a saddist never inflicts the
pain upon the masochist then they are denying their very nature.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is
he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able
nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-- Epicurus

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

The theme of escalation is, indeed, very popular, for it represents a
form of personal expression. The use of such justifications also
serves as a convenient manner in which to "turn a blind eye" to
ethical considerations.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"A Christian has to be Adolf Hitler to be called militant. All an
atheist has to do is write a book."
-- Tommy Holland

[raven1]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 12:56:26 +1000, "Andrew W"
<remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>"Christopher A. Lee" <ca...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:9d5jr755r3rv79uog...@4ax.com

>> On Mon, 21 May 2012 10:16:15 +1000, "Andrew W"
>> <remove_...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> "Neil Kelsey" <neil.m...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1b85d325-e68b-4811...@googlegroups.com

>>>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:44:11 PM UTC-7, Andrew W wrote:
>>>>> "Calvin Ramsey" <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>> news:jpbquu$57i$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>>>>>> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be
>>>>>>> punished eternally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The question is, what exactly is God?
>>>>
>>>> The question is "if God exists, is he worthy of worship?" For your
>>>> reference I am referring to the God of the Bible. I assumed I didn't
>>>> have to spell that out.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For all we know the Bible god could have been extraterrestrials or
>>> negative paranormal entities.
>>> In fact scientists are finding more and more evidence for the former.
>>
>> Which scientists?
>>
>
>Ones like Michael Cremo and many others.

Cremo? Seriously?

---
raven1
aa # 1096
EAC Vice President (President in charge of vice)
BAAWA Knight

[Christopher A. Lee]

I found him by accident when I was looking up Jesper's "scientist"
(who was actually a mathematician - he's a Hari Krishna loonie and has
no apparent qualification in any sience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_L._Thompson

In 1993 Thompson and Michael Cremo co-wrote Forbidden Archeology.
The book attracted vehement criticism as a pseudoscientific tract
proposing antievolutionism from a Hindu perspective.[9] The book
seeks to debunk the existing palaeoanthropological consensus that
anatomically modern hominids emerged of the order of a hundred
thousand years ago. They then claim that the scientific
establishment either ignores or suppresses anomalous evidence.[10]
Meera Nanda in the Indian magazine Frontline called Cremo and
Thompson "the intellectual force driving Vedic creationism".[4]

The claims of anomalies has been widely disputed. Tom Morrow, citing
an earlier review of the book by archaeologist Kenneth Feder, states
that a large proportion of the book is devoted to "absolutely
useless" analysis of outdated and poor-quality documentation, in
obscure literature, of archaeological specimens that no longer
exist.[11] Wade Tarzia states that such outdated sources are
"inadequate for a book that seeks to overturn the well-established
paradigm of human evolution", and suggests that the book fails to
test simpler hypotheses before introducing more complex and
sensationalistic ones.[12] Anthropologist Colin Groves states that
19th century finds were generally "found by accident and by
amateurs", and were thus generally lacking proper documentation of
crucial contextual information, and that the dates assigned were
therefore "hearsay and supposition". Cremo and Thompson fail to take
account of this, and seem to want to accord equal value to all
finds. Groves also states that their discussion of radiometric
dating is a "hatchet job", that fails to take account of the
on-going refinement of these methods, and the resulting fact that
later results are more reliable than earlier ones. He concludes that
the book is only "superficially scholarly".[13]

As a publicity stunt, the book was mailed, unsolicited, to a large
number of paleoanthropologists.[11] Prominent paleoanthropologist
Richard Leakey responded to a request for a book blurb by stating:
"Your book is pure humbug and does not deserve to be taken seriously
by anyone but a fool".[12]

In 1996 Thompson and Cremo appeared on the NBC special The
Mysterious Origins of Man, which was based upon the book,[14] and
which was similarly criticized by the scientific community.[15]

In one of Ramsey/Tandy/Murdoch's threads Andrew W cited Cremo as an
example of the transparent lie that "Bible god could have been

[linuxgal]

duke wrote:

> Nope. God wants your choice - accept his invitation or not. Unlike tao, which
> doesn't care.

Tao cares precisely as much as God does, as the survivors of Auschwitz
will attest.

[Olrik]

Le 2012-05-21 01:23, Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess a
écrit :
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 20:06:43 -0400
> raven1<quotht...@nevermore.com> wrote:

>> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:33:49 -0400, Calvin Ramsey
>> <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
>>>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>
>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
>>> for your sinful nature.
>>>

>>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
>>> or not.
>>

>> And there, folks, is all you need to know about the psychopath Calvin
>> Ramsey, in his own words.
>
> These words you wrote a while back are fitting right about now:
>
> "Sure is dark under that bridge..."
> -- The Raven (February 11, 2012)
>

"It was a dark and stormy night..."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Clifford

[Yap]

On May 22, 3:57 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:38:15 +1000, "Andrew W" <remove_ajwer...@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >"Calvin Ramsey" <calram...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> >news:jpbnvj$tgd$1...@speranza.aioe.org
> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
> >>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
> >> for your sinful nature.
>
> >> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
> >> or not.
>
> >Why punish us when we're here to learn from our mistakes and overcome the
> >dark?
>
> You're only in trouble if you die without learning.

Yes, but you are not doing the learning as you speak....

>
> >And burning in hell IS torture. Eternal hell is insane and unnecessary.
>
> Then learn.

But all of you are thinking the eternal afterlife and hell as true for
the dead....they aren't at all, just in your tiny little
mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Smiler]

Masochist: "Hit me!"
Sadist: "No!"

--
Smiler,

The godless one. a.a.# 2279

All gods are tailored to order. They're made to

exactly fit the prejudices of their believers.

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

...not at first, but there are ways that a masochist can get what they
ask for -- they just have to prove that they're worthy first.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"The phantom of the opera is there, inside your mind..."
-- Andrew Lloyd Weber

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

Let's have some fun with a few quick alterations...

It was a dark and stormy night; the metaphores fell cataclysmically --
except at occasional intervals, when they were checked by a rational
conjecture of blasphemy which bantered up the streets (for it is in
Theology that our scene belies), cutting deeply along the churchtops,
and violently waking up the slumbering flames of believers who struggle
to maintain voluntary autoenslavement that opposes the virtues of
darkness with their eyes closed behind imaginary blindfolds.

Next paragraph? Anyone??

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"It is a rare mind indeed that can render the hitherto non-existent
blindingly obvious. The cry 'I could have thought of that' is a very
popular and misleading one, for the fact is that they didn't, and a
very significant and revealing fact it is too."
-- Douglas Noel Adams, Satirical Statistical Scientist

[Don Martin]

By being determinedly annoying, like our fundies? Apparently, they are all
masochists.

--
aa #2278 Never mind "proof." Where is your evidence?
BAAWA Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Heckler
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/

[duke]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 20:43:31 -0700 (PDT), Yap <hhya...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 22, 3:57 am, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 May 2012 08:38:15 +1000, "Andrew W" <remove_ajwer...@optusnet.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Calvin Ramsey" <calram...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:jpbnvj$tgd$1...@speranza.aioe.org
>> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>> >>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished,
>> >> for your sinful nature.
>>
>> >> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished,
>> >> or not.
>>
>> >Why punish us when we're here to learn from our mistakes and overcome the
>> >dark?
>>
>> You're only in trouble if you die without learning.
>
>Yes, but you are not doing the learning as you speak....

I had to in order to make the statement that "you're only in trouble if you die
without learning".

>> >And burning in hell IS torture. Eternal hell is insane and unnecessary.
>> Then learn.

>But all of you are thinking the eternal afterlife and hell as true for
>the dead....they aren't at all, just in your tiny little
>mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then what is truth, and how do you yourself know?

[duke]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:12:53 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>

It's not a matter of what I think for you. The only way you get torture is if
that is what you prefer to life with God. If you want life with God, you must
follow him. This is your decision time - you time in the flesh.

[duke]

Tao doesn't care. It only makes a statement. Or that's the way you've
presented it.

[hypatiab7]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:58:52 PM UTC-4, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:

> > On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >
> >>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >>
> >> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >> your sinful nature.
> >

> > "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
> > the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
> > This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
> >
> > I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>
> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
> eternally.

Why? Then the sinner never gets a chance to learn their lesson and repent and be given another chance. Your God isn't holy. It's a monster.
>
> > Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> Your ignorance of the attributes of God is a characteristic many in Hell
> will have in common.

The fact that you not only believe in a hell but condone it makes you a psychopath. And, the fact that you keep telling yourself that you are
one of the elect shows exactly how frightened you are. You can't know
until it happens.

>
> >> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
> >

> > I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is just or not.
> > Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.
>
> You won't be tortured. You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

Which was created by and for your God, so he can enjoy hearing people
scream in agony. Why else would it deliberately create people with a
'sinful nature'? That was it's choice, not theirs. Likei said,you believe
in a monster God and it has driven you insane.

[hypatiab7]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 8:57:35 PM UTC-4, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:

> > Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> > > On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> > >> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
> > >> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> > >
> > > No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> > > your sinful nature.
> >

> > That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
> > if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
> > with a sinful nature.
>
> If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?

I tell him to cure himself and remember all the damage he's done for as
long as it lasted.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:04:14 AM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:12:53 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, May 21, 2012 12:58:50 PM UTC-7, duke wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:
> >> >> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> >> >> > On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
> >> >> >> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
> >> >> >> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> >> >> > your sinful nature.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
> >> >> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
> >> >> with a sinful nature.
> >> >
> >> >If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
> >>
> >> God's perfect.
> >
> >So then you think torture is acceptable. That's a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> It's not a matter of what I think for you.

Yeah, it is. Psychology is a valid explanation for your religious beliefs since you can't come up with any valid evidence that your God exists.

> The only way you get torture is if
> that is what you prefer to life with God.

Which makes God a torturer and unworthy of worship. Non-psychopaths find torture abhorrent. We have laws against it. Torturers should be in prison. Your inability to grasp this concept is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.

> If you want life with God, you must
> follow him. This is your decision time - you time in the flesh.

Like I said, if God exists I would prefer to be tortured for eternity than worship a psychopathic monster who tortures most people who have ever lived for eternity. I think it is immoral and cowardly to worship him, and I think Christians who try to defend the use of torture (and threaten people with torture as you are doing here) are disturbed in the same sense that psychopaths are disturbed.

[hypatiab7]

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:24:33 PM UTC-4, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 6:08 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>
> > I think torture is a sin, so if God exists then he must be punished eternally.
>
> In your opening post, you asserted that you believe God does exist.
>

> "He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring."
>

> Are you now making a full retraction of that assertion?

You truly have no sense of humor. Comes from being a Calvinist, I'd guess.
All that 'grim and dour' stuff must really get to you after awhile.

[sbalneav]

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
> your sinful nature.

Who defined what constitutes "sin"?

> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.

Since any crime a human can commit is, by definition, limited, an infinite
punishment for a limited crime is unjust. When you factor in that, according
to the Bible, if a God exists, he is omnipotent, one wonders how a limited
being can even offend an omnipotent being.

The very ridiculousness of a limited, powerless human somehow being able to
offend an omnipotent, omniscient (offense, by definition, implies you doing
something unexpected that causes displeasure. How do you do something
unexpected to an omniscient being?) God, especially when coupled with your own
idea of predestination, leads any sane thinking human to regard the entire
thing as bollocks.

[sbalneav]

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:

>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>
>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>
>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>> your sinful nature.
>>

>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,

>> the idolaters and all liars ???they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>> This is the second death.??? (Revelation 21:8)

>>
>> I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>
> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
> eternally.

Why? Why does a limited crime (a sin) require an infinite punishment?

Let's keep this simple. We'll concentrate on just the 10 commandments, as this
is common to all three of the Abrahamic religions.

We'll attack the big one right off. If you kill someone, you certainly commit
a very serious crime. But should that punishment be *eternal*? Especially
since, according to Christian Doctrine, you can avoid the punishment
alltogether by simply accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

If I kill someone, and don't repent, I receive an infinite punishment, which
doesn't appear to be commensurate with the crime. However, if I kill someone,
and repent, I receive no punishment at all. This doesn't seem fair from either
angle.

>> Your indifference towards this act is a trait you share in common with psychopaths.
>
> Your ignorance of the attributes of God is a characteristic many in Hell
> will have in common.

Existence precedes attributes. First we need to establish God exists. If we
can't do that, it's pointless to talk about attributes.

>>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
>>

>> I disagree. I think it's a matter of whether you think torture is just or not.
>> Apparently you don't even grasp what torture is.
>
> You won't be tortured. You'll be punished for having a sinful nature.

Again, who defined what constitutes "a sinful nature"?

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/22/2012 11:07 AM, sbalneav wrote:
> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>> your sinful nature.
>
> Who defined what constitutes "sin"?

Calm down. You don't need to know now.

You'll find out all about it later.

>
>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
>

> Since any crime ...[clip]

Crime is human to human.

You will be sent to hell for your sin; that's human to God.

Big difference.

>How do you do something
> unexpected to an omniscient being?) God, especially when coupled with your own
> idea of predestination, leads any sane thinking human to regard the entire
> thing as bollocks.

Who says it's unexpected? He not only foresaw your sin before you were
born, he
also decided not to intervene and prevent you from sinning. That way you
would
definitely deserve the punishment that you will receive in Hell.

See how that works?

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/22/2012 11:15 AM, sbalneav wrote:
> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>
>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>>
>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>>> your sinful nature.
>>>
>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>> the idolaters and all liars ???they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>>> This is the second death.??? (Revelation 21:8)
>>>
>>> I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>>
>> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
>> eternally.
>
> Why? Why does a limited crime (a sin) require an infinite punishment?

You don't really need to know now, but I'll stoop to your level and give
you a hint, although you should have already seen it. Ready?

What's that word after "Besides being...."? It starts with a "E". Ends
with a "L".

That's it. You got it. A sin against an eternal God demands an eternal
punishment.

But don't try and understand it. You can't. You asked the question, and
I answered it.

Now no more questions. After all, you don't really need to know the
answers.

See how that works?

[Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 11:17:06 -0400

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 11:07 AM, sbalneav wrote:
>> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How
>>>> can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>
>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be
>>> punished, for your sinful nature.
>>
>> Who defined what constitutes "sin"?
>
> Calm down. You don't need to know now.
>
> You'll find out all about it later.

According to Friedrich Nietzsche "sin" is a concept that was created by
the Jews.

>>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be
>>> punished, or not.
>>
>> Since any crime ...[clip]
>
> Crime is human to human.
>
> You will be sent to hell for your sin; that's human to God.
>
> Big difference.

What if the person committing the crime doesn't realize that they were
actually committing a crime?

Are these crimes defined by law, by religion, by social norms, or a
combination of these things? If it's a combination, what is the
process for determining which has the highest authority if this duty
doesn't also automatically fall back onto the law?

>> How do you do something unexpected to an omniscient being?) God,
>> especially when coupled with your own idea of predestination, leads
>> any sane thinking human to regard the entire thing as bollocks.
>
> Who says it's unexpected? He not only foresaw your sin before you
> were born, he also decided not to intervene and prevent you from
> sinning. That way you would definitely deserve the punishment that
> you will receive in Hell.
>
> See how that works?

That's sociopathic.

--

Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess

"God is dead."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

[sbalneav]

duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:57:35 -0700 (PDT), Neil Kelsey <neil.m...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
>>On Sunday, May 20, 2012 5:46:09 PM UTC-7, linuxgal wrote:

>>> Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> > On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> >> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>>> >> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>> >
>>> > No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>> > your sinful nature.
>>>

>>> That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
>>> if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
>>> with a sinful nature.
>>
>>If you were in charge of God's punishment, would you torture him?
>
> God's perfect.

By what standard? Would this standard be objective, or subjective?

[sbalneav]

duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 May 2012 17:46:09 -0700, linuxgal <linu...@cleanposts.com> wrote:
>
>>Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>>>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>
>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>> your sinful nature.
>>
>>That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. If man is created by God, and
>>if man has a sinful nature, then God should be punished for making man
>>with a sinful nature.
>

> Nope. God wants your choice

Is God omnipotent? Does he, or does he not, see the future?

[sbalneav]

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 11:15 AM, sbalneav wrote:
>> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>>>> your sinful nature.
>>>>
>>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>>> the idolaters and all liars ???they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>>>> This is the second death.??? (Revelation 21:8)
>>>>
>>>> I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>>>
>>> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
>>> eternally.
>>
>> Why? Why does a limited crime (a sin) require an infinite punishment?
>
> You don't really need to know now, but I'll stoop to your level and give
> you a hint, although you should have already seen it. Ready?
>
> What's that word after "Besides being...."? It starts with a "E". Ends
> with a "L".
>
> That's it. You got it. A sin against an eternal God demands an eternal
> punishment.

Why? We are not eternal. God (according to the bible) specifically made us
non-eternal. Obvioiusly, if a God exists, he deals with non-eternal things.
No large scale object appears to be eternal in this universe, so God can't be
FORCED to do something eternal by his nature, as he (according to the bible)
deals with finite things here. Also, to say that God would be constrained to
hand out eternal punishments would place a limit on his powers. If he's
omnipotent (and the bible claims he is), then there can be no such constraint.

So again, I ask: why can't God (if he exists) punish people *finitely*? Let's
take a lesser "sin": Coveting your neighbours wife. This "sin" in and of
itself, harms no one. So long as I do not act on my desire, it remains purely
in the realm of "thought crime". Who have I harmed? My neighbours wife? My
neighbour? I haven't acted on my desire, so they're not affected. My wife
(assuming I have one)? One could possibly argue I haven't been "faithful", but
since no adultery's been comitted, she's suffered no loss. Indeed, since
mind-reading doesn't appear to exist, the only one who knows about this is me.

And (assuming he exists) God.

So, how does this "crime" merit an infinite punishment. As far as crimes go,
it's pretty benign. Most rational people wouldn't even classify it as a crime:
it's just "fantasy". How has God been harmed, other than I've broken what
appears to be an utterly arbitrary "law" of his (again, assuming he exists. I
do not assume this.)

> But don't try and understand it. You can't. You asked the question, and
> I answered it.

No, you didn't. It's a non-sequitor. You've basically asserted that an
infinite God demands Infinite punishments. But everything this "God" has
supposedly done (according to the Bible) is finite in nature. You haven't
drawn any kind of line between God's supposed "infiniteness" and the need for
infinite punishments for finite crimes.

> Now no more questions. After all, you don't really need to know the
> answers.

Translations: I can't answer them.

> See how that works?

I see how YOU work.

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/22/2012 11:56 AM, sbalneav wrote:
> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> A sin against an eternal God demands an eternal punishment.
>
> Why? We are not eternal.

I tried to warn you. Don't try to understand it.

You can't.

[sbalneav]

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2012 11:07 AM, sbalneav wrote:
>> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>
>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>> your sinful nature.
>>
>> Who defined what constitutes "sin"?
>
> Calm down. You don't need to know now.

I'm perfectly calm. And I already know who defined what constitutes "sin".
The humans who wrote the bible.

> You'll find out all about it later.

If you're implying "after my death", no, all existing evidence points to the
fact that neither you or I will be finding out anything after we die.

>>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
>>
>> Since any crime ...[clip]
>
> Crime is human to human.
>
> You will be sent to hell for your sin; that's human to God.
>
> Big difference.

How?

>>How do you do something
>> unexpected to an omniscient being?) God, especially when coupled with your own
>> idea of predestination, leads any sane thinking human to regard the entire
>> thing as bollocks.
>
> Who says it's unexpected? He not only foresaw your sin before you were
> born, he
> also decided not to intervene and prevent you from sinning. That way you
> would
> definitely deserve the punishment that you will receive in Hell.

Not intervene? That counteracts your previous statements with regards to
predestination. If God (assuming existence of said deity) *intervenes* then
that would indicate freewill. But if he forsees the sin, then the future
is already decided in advance.

Which is it? You're being terribly inconsistent, as per usual.

> See how that works?

No, you've done nothing to clarify the issue. Your position that God
"intervenes" in things runs at odds with your stated belief in the doctrine
of predestination.

Please describe how you can "intervene" in a process that you yourself designed
in toto.

You really are bad at this, aren't you?

[sbalneav]

Surrender accepted. It's always nice kicking your butt around a.a

Does it still sting that I was the one who outed your "Mathias Sereno" 'nym?

Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. You're not even a good troll.

[Christopher A. Lee]

Very few Christians can get their minds around people not believing
because they have no reason to, talking about it in the sense of "for
the sake of argument" or as a character in a story book, etc.

Their minds switch off at the idea of people seeing their god as no
more real than Zeus, Odin, Krishna or even Harry Potter.

It's a defence mechanism. Anything that might cast doubt on their
faith vanishes due to cognitive dissonance.

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/22/2012 12:04 PM, sbalneav wrote:

> Your position that God "intervenes" in things runs at odds with your stated belief in the doctrine
> of predestination.

No it doesn't. You just don't understand what predestination is.

Think about it: How else could God predestine anything without
intervening into the thoughts and
decisions and actions of us humans?

You're not very good at thinking things through to their logical
conclusions, are you?



Now, that's the last question I will answer for you.

If you really want to know the answers to any more questions, you can
easily find them at one of
the following websites, otherwise you don't really want to know the
answer, and you'd be wasting
my time.

And I don't let anyone waste my time. You got that?


*See especially* : http://www.the-highway.com/Calvinism_Meeter.html

http://monergism.com/

http://monergism.com/mp3/

http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/whatismonergism2.html

http://calvinistcorner.com/predestination/

http://ccel.org/

http://reformed.org/calvinism/

http://reformedreader.org/

http://carm.org/predestination-and-election

http://the-highway.com/predestination_index.html

http://albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/verses_concerning_predestination.htm

http://philofreligion.homestead.com/main.html

http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html

http://nicenecouncil.com/media/

http://the-highway.com/calvinism.html

http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/

http://scienceagainstevolution.org/

http://leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/

http://wordofhisgrace.org/science.html

http://godandscience.org/

http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

http://spurgeon.org/~phil/hall.htm

http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/classic.htm

http://wabashcenter.wabash.edu/resources/result_browse.aspx?topic=675&pid=650

http://puritansermons.com/toc.htm

http://grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/

[Mike Lovell]

On 2012-05-22, sbalneav <sbal...@alburg.net> wrote:
> Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/22/2012 11:56 AM, sbalneav wrote:
>>> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> A sin against an eternal God demands an eternal punishment.
>>>
>>> Why? We are not eternal.
>>
>> I tried to warn you. Don't try to understand it.
>>
>> You can't.
>
> Surrender accepted. It's always nice kicking your butt around a.a
>
> Does it still sting that I was the one who outed your "Mathias Sereno" 'nym?
>
> Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. You're not even a good troll.

:-)

All makes good reading.

Although I don't think it's fair to start a battle of wits with an
unarmed man.

Mr Ramsey has tied himself up here, and unfortunately isn't smart
enough to realize it :-)


Fun though it is to watch him kick himself in the head over and over
again, you can't fix stupid.

--
Jews, Christians & Muslims
The content of your posts will show how much you
really believe God is looking over your shoulder

[raven1]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 11:25:55 -0400, Calvin Ramsey

<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 5/22/2012 11:15 AM, sbalneav wrote:
>> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2012 5:48 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:33:49 PM UTC-7, Calvin Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>>>>> your sinful nature.
>>>>
>>>> "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts,
>>>> the idolaters and all liars ???they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>>>> This is the second death.??? (Revelation 21:8)
>>>>
>>>> I don't share your opinion that burning someone for eternity in a fiery lake of burning sulfur isn't torture.
>>>
>>> Besides being Eternal, God is also Holy, and Just. Sin must be punished
>>> eternally.
>>
>> Why? Why does a limited crime (a sin) require an infinite punishment?
>
>You don't really need to know now, but I'll stoop to your level and give
>you a hint, although you should have already seen it. Ready?
>
>What's that word after "Besides being...."? It starts with a "E". Ends
>with a "L".
>
>That's it. You got it. A sin against an eternal God demands an eternal
>punishment.

That does not logically follow.

>But don't try and understand it. You can't. You asked the question, and
>I answered it.

Your answer is perfectly understandable. It is also perfectly
psychotic.

[David Canzi]

Calvin Ramsey <calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>
>No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>your sinful nature.
>

>It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.

Psychopaths feel no guilt, ever, no matter what they have done.
No lie or theft or assault they commit disturbs them. They are
incapable of feeling that they deserve to be punished.

Psychopaths must be God's favourite chosen.

--
David Canzi | TIMTOWWTDI (tim-toe-woe-dee): There Is More Than One
| Wrong Way To Do It

[Calvin Ramsey]

On 5/22/2012 12:55 PM, David Canzi wrote:
> Calvin Ramsey<calr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2012 5:29 PM, Neil Kelsey wrote:
>>> He is, after all, the Ringleader of an Eternal Torture Ring. How can
>> Christians claim that God is "perfectly good"?
>>
>> No, you got it all wrong. You won't be tortured, you'll be punished, for
>> your sinful nature.
>>
>> It's all a matter of whether you believe you deserve to be punished, or not.
>
> Psychopaths feel no guilt, ever, no matter what they have done.
> No lie or theft or assault they commit disturbs them. They are
> incapable of feeling that they deserve to be punished.
>
> Psychopaths must be God's favourite chosen.

You don't really know what you're saying.