!Pope Benedict on relativism and atheism
Veruyu
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
April 19, 2005
Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
alternative.
Cardinal Ratzinger's sermon on relativism at the Mass for the
Election of a Supreme Pontiff hit the note most important both in his
own life and in the coming life of the Church, in an age calling itself
"post-modern" but perhaps more accurately described as the Age of
Meaninglessness.
In his most formative years, Ratzinger heard Nazi propaganda shouting
that there is no truth, no justice, there is only the will of the
people (enunciated by its leader). As its necessary precondition,
Nazism depended on the debunking of objective truth and objective
morality. Truth had to be derided as irrelevant, and naked will had to
be exalted.
To anybody who said: "But that's false!" the Nazi shouted,
"That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to Der
Fuehrer?"
To anybody who said, "But what you are doing is unjust!" the Nazi
shouted louder, "Says you, swine."
Relativism means this: Power trumps.
Ratzinger experienced another set of loud shouters in the 1968 student
revolution at Tubingen University, this time in the name of Marxist
rather than Nazi will. Marxism as much as Nazism (though in a different
way) depended on the relativization of all previous notions of ethics
and morality and truth - "bourgeois" ideas, these were called.
People who were called upon by the party to kill in the party's name
had to develop a relativist's conscience.
In today's liberal democracies, Ratzinger has observed, the move to
atheism is not, as it was in the 19th century, a move toward the
objective world of the scientific rationalist. That was the
"modern" way, and it is now being rejected, in favor of a new
"post-modern" way. The new way is not toward objectivity, but
toward subjectivism; not toward truth as its criterion, but toward
power. This, Ratzinger fears, is a move back toward the justification
of murder in the name of "tolerance" and subjective choice.
Along with that move, he has observed (haven't we all?), comes a
dictatorial impulse, to treat anyone who has a different view as
"intolerant." For instance, those (on the "religious right")
who hold that there are truths worth dying for, and objective goods to
be pursued and objective evils to be avoided, are now held to be
"intolerant" fundamentalists, guilty of "discrimination."
In other words, the new dictatorial impulse declares that the only view
permissible among reasonable people is the view that all subjective
choices are equally valid. It declares, further, that anyone who claims
that there are objective truths and objective goods and evils is
"intolerant." Such persons are to be expelled from the community,
or at a minimum re-educated. That is to say, all Catholics and others
like them must be converted to relativism or else sent into cultural
re-training camps.
On the basis of relativism, however, no culture can long defend itself
or justify its own values. If everything is relative, even tolerance is
only a subjective choice, not an objective mandatory value. Ironically,
though, what post-moderns call "tolerance" is actually radically
intolerant of any view contrary to its own.
Most of the commentators, however, even those who support him, are
misinterpreting Ratzinger's point. They are getting him wrong.
What Ratzinger defends is not dogmatism against relativism. What he
defends is not absolutism against relativism. These are false
alternatives.
What Ratzinger attacks as relativism is the regulative principle that
all thought is and must remain subjective. What he defends against such
relativism is the contrary regulative principle, namely, that each
human subject must continue to inquire incessantly, and to bow to the
evidence of fact and reason.
The fact that we each see things differently does not imply that there
is no truth. It implies, rather, that each of us may have a portion of
the truth, and that in this or that matter some of us may hold more (or
less) truth than others. Therefore, since each of us has only part of
all the truth we seek, we must work hard together to discern in all
things wherein lies the truth, and wherein the error.
Ratzinger wishes to defend the imperative of seeking the truth in all
things, the imperative to follow the evidence. This imperative applies
to daily life, to science, and to faith. The great Jewish and Christian
name for God is connected to this imperative - one of the Creator's
names is Truth. Other related names are Light, and Way. Humans are made
seekers after truth.
It is no more than a fact that ours is a pluralistic world, in which
individuals have virtually an infinite variety of views. For Ratzinger,
not only is this individual variety normal and to be praised; it shows
the infinite number of ways humans have been made in the image of the
infinite God. Each one of us, as it were, mirrors a different aspect of
the infinite abundance of God.
But the fact of human "relativity" - that is, the fact that we
each see things differently, or that the life-voyage of each of us is
unique and inimitable - should not be transformed into an absolute
moral principle. The fact of relativity does not logically lead to the
principle of moral relativism.
No great, inspiring culture of the future can be built upon the moral
principle of relativism. For at its bottom such a culture holds that
nothing is better than anything else, and that all things are in
themselves equally meaningless. Except for the fragments of faith (in
progress, in compassion, in conscience, in hope) to which it still
clings, illegitimately, such a culture teaches every one of its
children that life is a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing.
The culture of relativism invites its own destruction, both by its own
internal incoherence and by its defenselessness against cultures of
faith.
This is the bleak fate that Cardinal Ratzinger already sees looming
before Europe. His fear is that this sickness of the soul will spread.
For Cardinal Ratzinger, moreover, it is not reason that offers a
foundation for faith, but the opposite. Historically, it is Jewish and
Christian faith in an intelligent and benevolent Creator that gave
birth in the West to trust in reason, humanism, science, and progress,
and carried the West far beyond the fatalistic limits of ancient Greece
and Rome.
To the meaninglessness of relativism, Ratzinger counter poses respect
for the distinctive, incommensurable image of God in every single human
being, from the most helpless to the seemingly most powerful, together
with a sense of our solidarity with one another in the bosom of our
Creator. This fundamental vision of the immortal value both of the
individual person and the whole human community in solidarity has been
the motor-power, the spiritual dynamic overdrive, of an increasingly
global (catholic) civilization.
That, at least, is the way he sees it. He is willing to argue out his
case with all comers.
Meteorite Debris
Veruyu<rcma...@excite.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
> Culture in Crisis
> http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
> April 19, 2005
>
> Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
> alternative.
A bit of a silly apology for the Grand Inquisitor. He doesn't believe
that each has a bit of the truth. He believes he has it all. As for
not defending dogmatism well tell that to gays. And the last bit about
xian belief in a creator giving rise to the enlightenment what a joke.
--
rot13 rcvp...@bcghfarg.pbz.nh
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
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Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
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Hell.
-Mencken
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting Ass
>Culture in Crisis
>http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
>April 19, 2005
>
>Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
>alternative.
Yes, I hate moral relativism. Let's execute ALL Nazi members!
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka olek...@yahoo.com aka Yang's little poltregeist bitch)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush fuck up my country: Worthless
Denis Loubet
"Veruyu" <rcma...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1113960312....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Culture in Crisis
> http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
> April 19, 2005
> To anybody who said: "But that's false!" the Nazi shouted,
> "That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to Der
> Fuehrer?"
"Now kiss his ring, you swine!"
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
Peacenik
> "That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to Der
> Fuehrer?"
That's the same answer that right-wing Christians give about their
authorities.
To anybody who said: "But that's false!" the extremist Catholic shouted,
"That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to the Pope?"
quibbler
rcma...@excite.com says...
> Cardinal Ratzinger's sermon on relativism at the Mass for the
> Election of a Supreme Pontiff hit the note most important both in his
> own life and in the coming life of the Church, in an age calling itself
> "post-modern" but perhaps more accurately described as the Age of
> Meaninglessness.
>
> In his most formative years, Ratzinger heard Nazi propaganda shouting
> that there is no truth, no justice, there is only the will of the
> people (enunciated by its leader).
That doesn't make the Nazis "post modern", fool. They pre-dated post-
modernism. They were anti-intellectual, but then again, so are most
fanatic religions and kooky right-wing cults of personality.
> Ratzinger experienced another set of loud shouters in the 1968 student
> revolution at Tubingen University, this time in the name of Marxist
Again, it is extreme revisionism to attempt to conflate Marxism and
"post-modernism". Marxism substantially predates post-modernism. The
problem with marxism in not its relativization of ethics, but the fact
that it is too absolutist. It actually applies flawed doctrines of
xianity and a misguided social consciousness on an absurdly extreme
level.
> In today's liberal democracies, Ratzinger has observed, the move to
> atheism is not, as it was in the 19th century, a move toward the
> objective world of the scientific rationalist.
Except that Marxist inspired atheism was a 19th century phenomenon.
Furthermore, the moron Ratzinger knows nothing about atheism and its
motivations or underpinnings. As a theologian, he knows nothing about
objectivity or the "world of the scientific rationalist". He thinks
that having a funky little collar and goofy hat dignifies the nonsense
that comes out of his mouth -- but it's still nonsense. Even now that
he wears the biggest dunce cap in all of Christendom and thinks himself
infallible, he's still just an ignoramus spouting nonsense.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
1558 Dead
<abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote:
>On 19 Apr 2005 18:25:12 -0700 the ET form known as
>Veruyu<rcma...@excite.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
>expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
>
>> Culture in Crisis
>> http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
>> April 19, 2005
>>
>> Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
>> alternative.
>
>A bit of a silly apology for the Grand Inquisitor. He doesn't believe
>that each has a bit of the truth. He believes he has it all. As for
>not defending dogmatism well tell that to gays. And the last bit about
>xian belief in a creator giving rise to the enlightenment what a joke.
I figure the guy's just a stand-in while the Church figures out where
it wants to go next.
It's pretty hard to figure where he'll have much appeal, outside of
the Vatican and the Opus Dei freak show here in the US. Central and
South America have a completely different brand of Catholic
batshittery, and Canada, much of the US, and Europe don't have much
use for old-time Catholicism these days.
-
Carl M. Forti, a spokesman for the National Republican
Congressional Committee -- "A month from now,
people are not going to remember [Terri Schiavo],"
he said, and 20 months from now, in the 2006
elections, "it will be irrelevant."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/26/politics/26delay.html?
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
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Veruyu
Denis Loubet wrote:
> "Veruyu" <rcma...@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1113960312....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Culture in Crisis
> >
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
> > April 19, 2005
> (snip)
> > To anybody who said: "But that's false!" the Nazi shouted,
> > "That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to Der
> > Fuehrer?"
>
> "Now kiss his ring, you swine!"
Troll
Veruyu
ze...@zeppscommentaries.com wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:41:37 +0930, Meteorite Debris
> <abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote:
>
> >On 19 Apr 2005 18:25:12 -0700 the ET form known as
> >Veruyu<rcma...@excite.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
> >expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
> >
> >> Culture in Crisis
> >>
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/novak/novak200504190839.asp
> >> April 19, 2005
> >>
> >> Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
> >> alternative.
> >
> >A bit of a silly apology for the Grand Inquisitor. He doesn't
believe
> >that each has a bit of the truth. He believes he has it all. As for
> >not defending dogmatism well tell that to gays. And the last bit
about
> >xian belief in a creator giving rise to the enlightenment what a
joke.
>
> I figure the guy's just a stand-in while the Church figures out where
> it wants to go next.
That's what they thought about John XXIII, Voteless.
Les Hellawell
>Culture in Crisis
Certainly the Christian religion is in crisis, deeply divided as
people increasingly turn their backs on it with revulsion.
>
>Cardinal Ratzinger has diagnosed relativism's evils, and offers an
>alternative.
Just the opinion of one man.
>
>Cardinal Ratzinger's sermon on relativism at the Mass for the
>Election of a Supreme Pontiff hit the note most important both in his
>own life and in the coming life of the Church, in an age calling itself
>"post-modern" but perhaps more accurately described as the Age of
>Meaninglessness.
By whom?
>In his most formative years, Ratzinger heard Nazi propaganda shouting
>that there is no truth, no justice, there is only the will of the
>people (enunciated by its leader). As its necessary precondition,
>Nazism depended on the debunking of objective truth and objective
>morality. Truth had to be derided as irrelevant, and naked will had to
>be exalted.
Errors in following quote corrected (priests substituted for
Nazis - though there are clear similarities)
>To anybody who said: "But that's false!" the Priests shouted,
>"That's just your opinion, and who are you, compared to Der
>Fuehrers* self
> appointed ministers? "
>
>To anybody who said, "But what you are doing is unjust!" the Priests
>shouted louder, "Says you, swine."
(* 'Fuhrer' means 'leader' or in this case the god concept used
by the priests)
We get these responces daily:
"You are stealing our list, we say.
"That's just your opinion who are you compared to god?"
"But what you are doing is unjust", we say.
"Says you swine", is the responce
And
"You are preying on us against our wishes"
"That's just your opinion who are you compared to god?"
"But what you are doing is unjust", we say.
"Says you swine", is the responce "we will continue"
>Relativism means this: Power trumps.
In the form of freedom, democracy, knowledge and education
for all?
Or in the form of religious control with loss of freedom
democracy and controlled knowledge and education?
(The Jesuits controlled education in Portugal up until
the 19thC keeping the peasant in ignorance and poverty)
making Portugal the poorest country in Western Europe.
>In today's liberal democracies, Ratzinger has observed, the move to
>atheism is not, as it was in the 19th century, a move toward the
>objective world of the scientific rationalist. That was the
>"modern" way, and it is now being rejected, in favor of a new
>"post-modern" way. The new way is not toward objectivity, but
>toward subjectivism; not toward truth as its criterion, but toward
>power. This, Ratzinger fears, is a move back toward the justification
>of murder in the name of "tolerance" and subjective choice.
He observes through rose coloured blinkers and is now even
more isolated from the world than he was before in his high
walled fortress surrounded by guards and acolytes totally
unaccountable. (Ever seen the size of the massive walls
surrounding the Vatican?)
>Along with that move, he has observed (haven't we all?), comes a
>dictatorial impulse, to treat anyone who has a different view as
>"intolerant." For instance, those (on the "religious right")
>who hold that there are truths worth dying for, and objective goods to
>be pursued and objective evils to be avoided, are now held to be
>"intolerant" fundamentalists, guilty of "discrimination."
Indeed we 'atheists' are happy to let the religious practise their
religion if they allow us not to participate. Until they start doing
that they will be intolerant. Tolerance can only work if it is mutual.
>What Ratzinger defends is not dogmatism against relativism. What he
>defends is not absolutism against relativism. These are false
>alternatives.
Who cares what he thinks? Until he was elected I had never even
heard of him. From what I have heard thus far he is an intolerant
religious Nazi (as opposed to a Hitler supporting Nazi) still stuck
in a medieval mind set.
<boring stuff snipped unread>
Stuff and nonesense about all these 'isms' has nothing to
do with the existence or not of gods. I have no reason to believe
one exists its as simpe as that.
>That, at least, is the way he sees it. He is willing to argue out his
>case with all comers.
King Rat will strengthen the church and weaken congregations
at an accelerating pace as people continue to turn their backs
on religion.
We have no need of religion, most of us live quite moral and
happy lives without it and the world will be a much safer and
happier place without it. We need no people telling us how to
think and what we may or may not do.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
Denis Loubet
Brilliant comback! You sure put me in my place!
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
>
Veruyu
Denis Loubet
Echo!! (Listens expectantly...)
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http:/www.io.com/~dloubet
>
Elf M. Sternberg
> Relativism means this: Power trumps.
How is this notion different from the ideology of the Catholic
Church? I'm confused; doesn't the Church argue that it has the ultimate
power, as the only legitimate source of God's wisdom, and therefore its
edicts are the only ones that have any import?
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/
"The apocalypse may be closer at hand than even John Derbyshire thinks:
what the hell is Elf Sternberg doing reading Derb's columns?"
-- Charles Murtaugh