The Doctrine of Predestination
Penelope Marris
Romans chapters 9-11 is one of the most avoided and unread passages of
scripture in the Bible; especially the particular passage quoted here:
"This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the
children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as
offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year
I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also
when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or
bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because
of works but because of him who calls--she was told, 'The older will
serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I
will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not
on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:8-16 ESV)
Theologians try to position themselves on four different fronts, so as
to avoid giving us a strait answer. The evangelicals will not talk about
it. The reformed church apologizes for it. And the majority of
Christian's today have not heard about it. However, this is one of the
most profound truths in all of scripture. During one of the few times
that it was brought up in a bible study there were accusations of hatred
and Hyper-Calvinism; when all that took place was a simple reading of
the passage and a few direct comments as to its obvious and clear meaning.
"No doctrine stimulates more negative reaction and consternation than
this one. Some degree of such reaction is probably inevitable, for it
flies in the face of our own common perception of both human freedom and
God's justice" (Douglas J. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1996)
Martin Luther in his commentary on Romans states;
"This is written in order that divine grace might be magnified and the
arrogant boasting of human merit might be utterly destroyed.....This is
a hard saying for the proud and prudent. But it is sweet to the lowly
and humble who despair of themselves."
If you have studied the sovereignty of God in any degree you can see why
this passage in Romans 9 is crucial to understanding that the power of
our salvation is of God and not of ourselves.
Peter wrote in 2 Pet 3:16 regarding Paul's teaching:
"Speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things
in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to
their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
This hard teaching that Peter was talking about is the same truth that
will be presented here.
Penelope Marris
What has brought about so much reaction to this wonderful doctrine is
the overwhelming focus on the false belief that man has a "free will".
It is the pride of man's base reasoning, in extenuating and lessening
both the guilt and filth of that original sin which claims that man can
be man without God. He has placed his choices and reaction to the
Spirit's moving in his heart as omnipotent and claims that it ties the
hands of an all-powerful God.
"It is not of him that wills:" Salvation is not caused by man's will or
any volitional power of the man. "It is not of him that runs." Salvation
is not caused by man's works. These things are the workings of God in
the man, the outward manifestations, they are not the Power or Cause
behind the manifestations. Salvation is by the power of God alone; He
is the Cause.
The claim that man is free and independent was considered heretical for
centuries (even by many in the early church.) The Pelagians of old were
the instruments of such foolishness and then later the arrogant claims
of James Arminius (whose name birthed Arminianism) bellowed it about as
well as self acclaimed evangelist, attorney Charles Finney. Even John
Wesley watered it down to the point of personal interpretation.
However, the lie has been around since the fall of man and as Martin
Luther vivaciously claimed, "it is the heart of original sin."
Penelope Marris
So when we claim that the scripture clearly teaches predestination it
then must follow that it clearly teaches "double predestination". You
can not embrace one without the other. Since God elects one this then
means he does not elect another. Yet, most Christian's today do not
even know that such clear truth exists within the pages of Holy Writ.
So the hardening that Paul portrays in this passage in his letter to the
Romans is a sovereign act of God that is not caused by anything in those
individuals who are hardened.
Douglas Moo, a well noted theologian, has plummeted the mainstream
consensus with his commentary on Romans and states:
"It seems then that this text, in its context, provides important
exegetical support for the controversial doctrine of "double
predestination": just as God decides, on the basis of nothing but his
own sovereign pleasure, to bestow his grace and so save some
individuals, so he also decides, on the basis of nothing but his own
sovereign pleasure, to pass over others."
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his
power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for
destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels
of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he
has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom
9:22-24 ESV)
Martin Luther stated that;
"Salvation is not of our own strength or counsel, but depends
entirely on the working of God alone; so does it not obviously follow
that when God is not present to work in us, all is evil, and of
necessity we act in a way that contributes nothing towards our
salvation? For if it is not we, but God alone, who works salvation in
us, it follows that nothing we do has any saving significance prior to
His working in us and all that is done after our salvation is His
working in us as well."
Although the church opposed Luther's teaching outwardly, his opponent
Erasmus admitted privately that Luther was right in his doctrine. If it
were not for the offense and unpopularity of the message of "double
predestination vs. free will" Luther would most likely have been like
every other popular but double minded evangelical.
At the "Council of Orange" Luther was given his opportunity to portray
these same rich truths. He was received with an overwhelming ovation
until this particular issue was raised before the floor. It was then
that they refused him and rejected this profound truth. Luther continues:
"God is the only independent agent that there is. And if we believe
it to be true, that God fore-knows and fore-ordains all things; that He
can be neither deceived nor hindered in His Prescience and
Predestination; and that nothing can take place but according to His
Will; then, even according to the testimony of reason herself, there can
be no 'free-will' in man, in angel, or any creature!"
LC
"Penelope Marris" <pen...@rotterdam.net> wrote in message
news:hhtut5$hdi$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
<snip redundant idiocy>
Hey Penny, how's about you and your altered ego "Vini" fucking off.
Soonest.
TIA!
Penelope Marris
<pen...@rotterdam.net> wrote:
Once again I am posting unsolicited, off-topic rudeness and stupidity
to a group of people I hate. Because I am a pathological narcissist
with no understanding or right and wrong, and no empathy for my fellow
human beings.
My mental illness is called pathological narcissist personality
disorder. This explains why I am such a jerk towards people who live
outside my little fantasy world...
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
"If you're like me, you get into disputes with narcissists over their
casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform
narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better
nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see
is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem
here is that narcissists lack empathy."
The person who owns that web page is right - it is impossible to
appeal to my better nature because I have none. I have no empathy and
am incapable of seeing my actions from the point of view of those at
the receiving end.
"Lacking empathy is a profound disturbance to the narcissist's
thinking (cognition) and feeling (affectivity). Even when very
intelligent, narcissists can't reason well. One I've worked with
closely does something I characterize as "analysis by eggbeater."
They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't
grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of
the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect,
narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and
affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be
really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of
the same words means that they are following a line of conversation
or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies,
apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others
are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words,
either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it.
This is not merely a bad habit -- it's a cognitive deficiency.
Narcissists pay attention only to themselves and stuff that affects
them personally. However, since they don't know what other people are
doing, narcissists can't judge what will affect them personally and
seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get
trouble back. They won't take other people's feelings into
consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will
react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get
really pissed off by being lied to or lied about."
Yep, that's me.
"Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only
by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations -- though,
again, this can be obscure to casual observation if you don't know
what they think their reputations are, and what they believe others
think of them may be way out of touch with reality [see remarks on
John Cheever elsewhere on this page]. Their moral intelligence is
about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules
they recognize are things that have been specifically required,
permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they
know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do
something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as
long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't
stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless
they're afraid of you)."
I know I don't have any mature conscience.
"Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b)
extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen
as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not
actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) -- or else
they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal
humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement.
In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again -- it hurts,"
narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that
they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something
like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't
hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get
lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little
ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their
fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your
imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might
do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in
one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will
withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave -- narcissists
will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own
self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate
restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes
physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt,
threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had
indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I
feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to
feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn
around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to
this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me
the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are
too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they
are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The
other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their
glorious presence -- this can turn into a farce, since by this point
you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out
of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the
withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while -- a
few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use
you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned
your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned
your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they
have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and
needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants
to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't
want to change -- they want the world to change. And they criticize,
gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone
almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists
regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or
actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest
criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though
they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently
they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists
just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other
authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and
less outside influence to keep them in check."
That's right. I'm only posting this rudeness and stupidity to atheists
because they took exception to my crashing their group and killfiling
anybody who objected to my bullshit.
Christopher A. Lee
Which one is the he and which is the he-she?
>TIA!
archie dux
> "Penelope Marris" <penn...@rotterdam.net> wrote in message
She can't.
She's predestined to post these things, just as
she's predestined for Hell.
archie
Penelope Marris
There is no such thing as chance, or fortune. There is no such thing as
an accident or random acts of kindness; for all things turn out
according to divine predestination; not only the works we do outwardly,
but even the thoughts we think inwardly.
"For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory
forever. Amen." (Rom 11:36 ESV)
Many a writing of countless saints of old have embraced this clear
teaching of Paul. You will find many of the words and statements within
this article familiar, if you have had any exposure to this great truth.
And so along with the many teachers and leaders of the reformation both
past and present we declare again this truth:
That since the universe has its origin in God and depends on Him for its
continued existence it must be, in all its parts and at all times,
subject to His control so that nothing can come to pass contrary to what
He expressly decrees. The eternal manifestation of His Person has been
brought into time through an act of sovereign predestination; and since
God is not held by time or space, it has been so from eternity to
eternity and unconditioned by no subsequent fact or change. Call it
Divine determinism if you will, but if it be not by divine determinism
then there would be a altering and determining power loose in the
universe unknown by God and outside of His control. And because that
which is known must come from that source by which it is known, it then
follows that all that takes place is not only predestined, but
absolutely and perfectly necessary in every detail and occurrence; And
since the Agent responsible for the existence of all beings and
manifestations must possess the knowledge and order of such, it would
naturally follow that all things, which are in their own right
necessary, must be good and working according to their own law of
necessity. Thus the events and acts (or choices) themselves are not the
cause, as the foolish would have us believe, but they are the natural
workings and effects of "The Cause" in history at any given point in
time. If man were not making choices there would be no such thing as
consciousness, however it is not the choices or actions that determine
mans destiny, but God's sovereign working of each choice in the man,
according to the degree of faith apportioned to him by God.
Martin Luther stated;
"So man's will is like a beast standing between two riders. If God
rides, it wills and goes where God wills: as the Psalm says, 'I was
brutish and ignorant; I was like a beast toward you. Nevertheless, I am
continually with you; you hold my right hand.' (Ps. 73:22-23 ESV). If
Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan wills. Nor may it choose to
which rider it will run, or which it will seek; but the riders
themselves fight to decide who shall have and hold it."
Richo
> #1
>
> Romans chapters 9-11 is one of the most avoided and unread passages of
> scripture in the Bible
Yes there is so much that is deserving of being avoided and unread in
the Bible.
You need to get a clue - ALT.ATHEISM - the clue is in the title.
The people here are not interested in the bullshit you are pushing -
its that simple.
Mark.
L.Roberts
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:51:23 -0500, Penelope Marris
>
Well, you ignorant fucking bitch, don't you reckon you ought to just
cut it out?
Penelope Marris
<pen...@rotterdam.net> wrote:
>#4
>
>There is no such thing as chance, or fortune. There is no such thing as
>an accident or random acts of kindness; for all things turn out
>according to divine predestination; not only the works we do outwardly,
>but even the thoughts we think inwardly.
Once again I am lying to atheists in their own newsgroup with more
unsolicited bullshit, just to make the same kind of point as if I had
painted swastikas outside a Jewish home.
I do this because I am a pathological narcissist bordering on the
psychopathic.
Here are some details of my mental illness...
It is called pathological narcissist personality
L.Roberts
Christopher A. Lee
Which is why she's doing it.
>Mark.
Penelope Marris
The man that operates by sight says he has the power of salvation. The
man that operates by faith says it is God who works within by the sweet
power of the Holy Spirit. Confusion comes into the picture because we do
not understand that God has veiled His sovereign power within creation
so that a man in the flesh can not see God's omnipotent power. The
focus really is a questioning of the power of God and has nothing to do
with freedom. When one promotes free choice he promotes himself and his
own ability, which is diametrically opposed to humility.
"For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our
hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the
face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show
that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us." (2 Cor 4:6-7 ESV)
God gives the light. He shines it on our hearts and gives the knowledge
of himself to us as the desire for Him is watered into birth by the Spirit.
So those of faith see that it is not by sight and the actions of man
from which we judge, but by faith alone; "the evidence of things which
are not seen." To hard to see? Yes it is, that is exactly why it is
called faith, it takes the faith of God in us to see. You will never
see faith in the flesh, because it is the foolishness of man that judges
by the outward appearances.
"For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance,
but the Lord looks on the heart." (1 Sam 16:7 ESV)
God has said that He has blinded the ungodly who will not and can not
come to Him, so that their knowledge is, in and of itself, a derivation
of deception and arrogance. They will never desire Lordship of another
and are unaffected by the message of truth, because they can not see it
in the flesh. This knowledge in them is darkened by the spirit of
ignorance that dwells within them:
"They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of
God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of
heart." (Eph 4:18 ESV)
As we can clearly see, it is the hardness of the heart that is the cause
of their ignorance and their blindness. This hardness is the very seed
of Satan himself dwelling within these vessels of wrath; and unless a
merciful God would change that heart, it is left to itself and its
destruction. This new heart that would be placed in the man is declared
as a gift from God. He is the one who does Holy surgery on man. He
takes away the stony heart from within and replaces it with a new heart
of tenderness and love. He places His Spirit within the man and is the
cause of his walking in the Spirit for which the result will surely be
the keeping of His judgments. (Ezek 36:23-28) He is the cause and the
affect of all things forever.
"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within
you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a
heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to
walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ezek 36:26-27 ESV)
Calvin, the brilliant and systematic theologian, put the matter thus;
"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which he has
determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual
of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but
eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others.
Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends,
we say he is predestined either to life or to death."
So we see that the elect of God are made by God and called by His name
and for his Glory;
"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in
bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation
perfect through suffering." (Heb 2:10 ESV)
"Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I
formed and made." (Isa 43:7 ESV)
Penelope Marris
<pen...@rotterdam.net> wrote:
>#5
>
>The man that operates by sight says he has the power of salvation. The
I am a pig-ignorant stupid liar.
This is because I am a pathological narcisist.
Smiler
> What's up bitch?
_P_enny _M_aris _T_waddle?
--
Smiler
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
All gods are bespoke. They're all made to
perfectly fit the prejudices of their believer
hypa...@comcast.net
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 18:51:23 -0500, Penelope Marris
>
KIllfiling works both way, Penny. Very few people in alt.atheism
read what you vomit. Most have killfiled you and others simply
ignore you. A few respond to you because they enjoy stomping
on unwanted invaders like you. Please killfile me, too, if you
haven't already. I'll now go back to ignoring you.
hypa...@comcast.net
> On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:11:16 -0800 (PST), Richo
>
> >On Jan 5, 10:51 am, Penelope Marris <penn...@rotterdam.net> wrote:
> >> #1
>
> >> Romans chapters 9-11 is one of the most avoided and unread passages of
> >> scripture in the Bible
>
> >Yes there is so much that is deserving of being avoided and unread in
> >the Bible.
>
> >You need to get a clue - ALT.ATHEISM - the clue is in the title.
> >The people here are not interested in the bullshit you are pushing -
> >its that simple.
>
> Which is why she's doing it.
>
her messages to see if anyone has wasted their time
responding to her. The responders are her encouragement.
She says that she has killfiled everyone who disagrees
with her, so soon she won't have any responders at all.
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
She is trying to earn her deity points by "not preaching" to we heathen
atheists, while preaching to us. She whines that she's "not trying to
convert" anyone, while preaching her conversion bullshit every chance
she gets. She is also clearly insane, as the only person she does
actually respond to is herself. She starts a thread, then posts her own
replys to that thread.
Like several other twits that have come through here with the "truth",
Penny deserves a mass plonking. The few folks remaining that respond to
her are simply wasting their time. She's an idiot.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://azhotops.blogspot.com
A.A #1143 http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
BAAWA Knight Sir Karl of the Solaris Media
____________________________________________________________________
Richo
wrote:
I think you are right - I was kind of curious to see if she would
respond in a non-robotic fashion.
Curiousity satisfied.
I will now ignore. (cant "plonk" as such - reading and posting from
google these days)
Mark