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Animal Consciousness
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Budikka666
Sep 1, 2012, 12:37:18 PM9/1/12
to
Malcolm McMahon
Sep 3, 2012, 5:39:25 AM9/3/12
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Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
On Saturday, 1 September 2012 17:37:18 UTC+1, Budikka666 wrote:
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/31/animal-consciousness/
>
>
>
> Budikika
So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
On Saturday, 1 September 2012 17:37:18 UTC+1, Budikka666 wrote:
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/31/animal-consciousness/
>
>
>
> Budikika
SkyEyes
Sep 18, 2012, 3:46:38 AM9/18/12
to
On Sep 3, 2:39 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
wrote:
> Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>
> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
>
> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight of the Golden Litterbox
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
sbalneav
Sep 18, 2012, 5:25:24 PM9/18/12
to
SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2:39ï¿œam, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
correspond to having some degree of consciousness. Also, evolution lends some
support for the idea, as well. Things just don't "appear" ex-nihilio in
evolution. Wings don't pop out of nothing, nor are there any crocoducks. If
we have consciousness, it's a safe bet that common ancestors had some kind of
consciousness as well.
Besides, I like the idea that, no matter how shitty my day has been, my cat
still loves me. :)
--
__ _ | I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me
(_ |_) | as much as a week sometimes to make it up.
__)|_) | -- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad"
> On Sep 3, 2:39ï¿œam, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>> Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>>
>> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>
> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
Absolutely. As a pet owner over the years, one sees behaviours in animals that
>> Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>>
>> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>
> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
correspond to having some degree of consciousness. Also, evolution lends some
support for the idea, as well. Things just don't "appear" ex-nihilio in
evolution. Wings don't pop out of nothing, nor are there any crocoducks. If
we have consciousness, it's a safe bet that common ancestors had some kind of
consciousness as well.
Besides, I like the idea that, no matter how shitty my day has been, my cat
still loves me. :)
--
__ _ | I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me
(_ |_) | as much as a week sometimes to make it up.
__)|_) | -- Mark Twain, "The Innocents Abroad"
Devils Advocaat
Sep 21, 2012, 7:02:57 AM9/21/12
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On 18 Sep, 08:46, SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Sep 3, 2:39 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>
> > So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>
> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
Indeed, even grass snakes have some degree of this wispy stuff called
> On Sep 3, 2:39 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>
> > So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>
> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
consciousness.
raven1
Sep 21, 2012, 12:57:57 PM9/21/12
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On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:25:24 +0000 (UTC), sbalneav
<sbal...@alburg.net> wrote:
>SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Sep 3, 2:39 am, Malcolm McMahon <malcolm.m...@googlemail.com>
<sbal...@alburg.net> wrote:
>SkyEyes <skye...@cox.net> wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>>>
>>> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>>
>> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
>> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
>
>Absolutely. As a pet owner over the years, one sees behaviours in animals that
>correspond to having some degree of consciousness. Also, evolution lends some
>support for the idea, as well. Things just don't "appear" ex-nihilio in
>evolution. Wings don't pop out of nothing, nor are there any crocoducks. If
>we have consciousness, it's a safe bet that common ancestors had some kind of
>consciousness as well.
>
>Besides, I like the idea that, no matter how shitty my day has been, my cat
>still loves me. :)
Dogs love their owner. Cats tolerate their staff.
>>> Not exactly world-shattering stuff. There's no real scientific definition of consciousness (except as the opposite of "unconscious"). We don't know what it's for. We don't know what kind of substrate is required. We can't really observe it, only experience it.
>>>
>>> So it's impossible to say where it might exist outside of ourselves. So the best they can do is no better than what most of us would say on the basis of common sense.
>>
>> Indeed. Those of us who work and live closely with animals have
>> always known this to be true, to one degree or another.
>
>Absolutely. As a pet owner over the years, one sees behaviours in animals that
>correspond to having some degree of consciousness. Also, evolution lends some
>support for the idea, as well. Things just don't "appear" ex-nihilio in
>evolution. Wings don't pop out of nothing, nor are there any crocoducks. If
>we have consciousness, it's a safe bet that common ancestors had some kind of
>consciousness as well.
>
>Besides, I like the idea that, no matter how shitty my day has been, my cat
>still loves me. :)
harry k
Sep 22, 2012, 2:20:40 PM9/22/12
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On Sep 21, 9:57 am, raven1 <quoththera...@nevermore.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:25:24 +0000 (UTC), sbalneav
>
>
>
>
>
> <sbaln...@alburg.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:25:24 +0000 (UTC), sbalneav
>
>
>
>
>
Harry K
Free Lunch
Sep 22, 2012, 9:21:32 PM9/22/12
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On Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT), harry k
<turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism.moderated:
As long as they do their work properly. If the servant (slave and
servant are the same concept to cats) fails to serve properly, they will
start by teaching them how to hunt (gifts of nearly-dead mice or birds
are common training tools) and then how to clean up (badly cleaned
litter boxes will be cleaned by the cat in a way most distressing to the
servant). Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
<turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism.moderated:
servant are the same concept to cats) fails to serve properly, they will
start by teaching them how to hunt (gifts of nearly-dead mice or birds
are common training tools) and then how to clean up (badly cleaned
litter boxes will be cleaned by the cat in a way most distressing to the
servant). Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
Waldo Tunnel
Sep 23, 2012, 5:04:25 AM9/23/12
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On Sep 22, 6:21 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
[...]
>Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
> how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
> cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
That's because the cat is fighting for it's life and the dog isn't.
[...]
>Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
> how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
> cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
Free Lunch
Sep 23, 2012, 12:45:54 PM9/23/12
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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 02:04:25 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel
<waldo...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism.moderated:
So why did the cats start it in the first place?
<waldo...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism.moderated:
raven1
Sep 24, 2012, 8:44:55 AM9/24/12
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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 11:45:54 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:
Hubris. Dog: "the humans feed me! They must be gods!". Cat: "the
humans feed me. I must be a god!".
wrote:
humans feed me. I must be a god!".
Christopher A. Lee
Sep 25, 2012, 10:44:07 AM9/25/12
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order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
Alex W.
Sep 24, 2012, 1:22:27 PM9/24/12
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On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
>
> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
equal.
Until then, however, as far as I am concerned cats remain a
specialty dish in Chinese takeaway cuisine or a handy ball
replacement for dropkick practice.
Waldo Tunnel
Sep 24, 2012, 6:18:31 PM9/24/12
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On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> > Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> > order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> equal.
Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> > Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> > order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> equal.
> Until then, however, as far as I am concerned cats remain a
> specialty dish in Chinese takeaway cuisine or a handy ball
> replacement for dropkick practice.
dogs and beat the shit out of them before slaughter because they
believe that the pain-induced adrenalin makes for better tasting meat.
Waldo Tunnel
Sep 24, 2012, 6:26:21 PM9/24/12
to
On Sep 23, 9:45 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 02:04:25 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel
> <waldotun...@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism.moderated:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 02:04:25 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel
>
> >On Sep 22, 6:21 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
> >[...]
>
> >>Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
> >> how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
> >> cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
>
> >That's because the cat is fighting for it's life and the dog isn't.
>
> So why did the cats start it in the first place?
Between an 8 lb cat and a 40 lb dog it is a safe bet the cat didn't
> >On Sep 22, 6:21 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
> >[...]
>
> >>Further failures may lead to the cat teaching the servant just
> >> how sharp those claws are (dogs already know, which is why if an 8 lb
> >> cat and a 40 lb dog fight, the cat is a good bet to be the winner).
>
> >That's because the cat is fighting for it's life and the dog isn't.
>
> So why did the cats start it in the first place?
start it--if there was any chance to get away.
raven1
Sep 25, 2012, 7:53:15 AM9/25/12
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On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, "Christopher A. Lee"
Alex W.
Sep 25, 2012, 11:03:28 AM9/25/12
to
On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel wrote:
> On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
>>> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>>
>> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
>> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
>> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
>> equal.
>
> Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
They are, at that: they are more flavoursome, better ratters
> On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
>>> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>>
>> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
>> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
>> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
>> equal.
>
> Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
(when they can be bothered) and unlike humans they can be turned
into a fur collar for my parka.
>
>> Until then, however, as far as I am concerned cats remain a
>> specialty dish in Chinese takeaway cuisine or a handy ball
>> replacement for dropkick practice.
>
> I understand that in Thailand the better restaurants will take live
> dogs and beat the shit out of them before slaughter because they
> believe that the pain-induced adrenalin makes for better tasting meat.
hence tougher meat.
Waldo Tunnel
Sep 28, 2012, 10:36:25 AM9/28/12
to
On Sep 25, 8:03 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel wrote:
> > On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> >>> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> >>> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> >> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> >> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> >> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> >> equal.
>
> > Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
>
> They are, at that: they are more flavoursome,
Superior "flavour" than human flesh. No kidding. I didn't know that.
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel wrote:
> > On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> >>> Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> >>> order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> >> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> >> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> >> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> >> equal.
>
> > Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
>
> They are, at that: they are more flavoursome,
> better ratters...
Better than who(m)?
> (when they can be bothered)
human whim from felines.
Waldo Tunnel
Sep 28, 2012, 10:42:48 AM9/28/12
to
On Sep 25, 8:03 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel wrote:
[...]
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Waldo Tunnel wrote:
> > I understand that in Thailand the better restaurants will take live
> > dogs and beat the shit out of them before slaughter because they
> > believe that the pain-induced adrenalin makes for better tasting meat.
>
> Which is rubbish, since the pain results in tenser muscle and
> hence tougher meat.
improving the flavor of the meat.
Brian E. Clark
Oct 3, 2012, 10:49:48 PM10/3/12
to
In article <4dah2q169yb6.10...@40tude.net>,
ing...@yahoo.co.uk says...
> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> equal.
Some animals are more clever than others, though. My first
cat, Sydney, could twist doorknobs, flick door locks, and
slide window fasteners. He also learned to get past child-
safety devices installed on the kitchen cabinet doors. If
he felt insufficient attention was being paid to him, he
would hide my keys while I slept. What a pain. :)
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
ing...@yahoo.co.uk says...
> When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> equal.
cat, Sydney, could twist doorknobs, flick door locks, and
slide window fasteners. He also learned to get past child-
safety devices installed on the kitchen cabinet doors. If
he felt insufficient attention was being paid to him, he
would hide my keys while I slept. What a pain. :)
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Yap
Oct 7, 2012, 6:20:07 AM10/7/12
to
On Sep 25, 6:18 am, Waldo Tunnel <waldotun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> > > Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> > > order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> > When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> > tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> > milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> > equal.
>
> Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
Only superior to the believers, not to atheists.
> On Sep 24, 10:38 am, "Alex W." <ing...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:44:07 -0700, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
> > > Dogs are pack animals, with their humans at the top of the pecking
> > > order. With cats it's more like a relationship between equals.
>
> > When cats evolevc opposable thumbs so they can open their own
> > tins of canned dolphin and write a note on the fridge to get more
> > milk, I will begin to entertain the possibility that they may be
> > equal.
>
> Cats are superior to humans in significant ways.
>
> > Until then, however, as far as I am concerned cats remain a
> > specialty dish in Chinese takeaway cuisine or a handy ball
> > replacement for dropkick practice.
>
> I understand that in Thailand the better restaurants will take live
> dogs and beat the shit out of them before slaughter because they
> believe that the pain-induced adrenalin makes for better tasting meat.
Dog as cuisine only happens in Korea and Vietnam.
Yap
Oct 7, 2012, 6:24:48 AM10/7/12
to
On Oct 4, 10:49 am, Brian E. Clark <brianecl...@newsgroup.reply.only>
wrote:
> In article <4dah2q169yb6.105nxzqpouquv....@40tude.net>,
Egyptians worshiped cats for a very long time.
But, aren't cats not loyal enough as compared to dogs?
However, I have heard a story sometime ago that a Londoner lost a cat
which traveled back by foot from Scotland to his master home.
wrote:
> In article <4dah2q169yb6.105nxzqpouquv....@40tude.net>,
But, aren't cats not loyal enough as compared to dogs?
However, I have heard a story sometime ago that a Londoner lost a cat
which traveled back by foot from Scotland to his master home.
Yap
Oct 7, 2012, 3:52:29 AM10/7/12
to
On Sep 2, 12:37 am, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net> wrote:
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/31/animal-co...
>
> Budikika
Well, I quite totally agree that all animals, human and others as well
as insect, etc have consciousness.
I often notice insects searching for mates won't be attracted to other
species.
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/08/31/animal-co...
>
> Budikika
Well, I quite totally agree that all animals, human and others as well
as insect, etc have consciousness.
I often notice insects searching for mates won't be attracted to other
species.
Waldo Tunnel
Oct 8, 2012, 10:35:34 AM10/8/12
to
On Oct 3, 7:49 pm, Brian E. Clark <brianecl...@newsgroup.reply.only>
wrote:
> In article <4dah2q169yb6.105nxzqpouquv....@40tude.net>,
I believe everything except that last part.
wrote:
> In article <4dah2q169yb6.105nxzqpouquv....@40tude.net>,
Dakota
Oct 8, 2012, 9:59:56 PM10/8/12
to
becomes overly broad and therefore useless.
Yap
Oct 10, 2012, 3:15:08 AM10/10/12
to
But it may be part of a broader criteria.
Dakota
Oct 10, 2012, 5:14:09 AM10/10/12
to
have consciousness?
hypa...@gmail.com
Oct 15, 2012, 4:23:37 PM10/15/12
to
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