Saturn in fifth house and conjunct moon :-(
Alex
I have a different question this time, and this is with regards to my
natal position of Saturn. A lot of textbooks on astrology that I had read so
far had actually given me a grim outlook of this position...specially in the
area of ROMANCE and LOVE!! and on top of that, my moon (in the 4th for
placidus and 5th for Koch) is conjunct with saturn as if it isnt as bad as
it seems. On top of that..Capricorn is my ascendant. Well I guess I need a
little bit of advice on how to handle this aspect of mine. It seems that the
astrology books are quite right about one thing...I am having trouble
finding ROMANCE and LOVE in my life. I don't know if it is really the
aspects...or if someone can tell me some positive placement of saturn here
and it's aspects. I also have been experiencing my first Saturn return
here...so if any of you can offer any advice, support, or help, it will be
greatly appreciated. Again..thanks again for all your help!! :-)
With regards,
Alex
pete
Pete comments: first saturn return turns you into an adult.
Nothing more or less. The second is the more difficult one
- in that it brings public attention to your past
accomplshnets.
Saturn is the source of our weakness. Under saturn whatever
can go wrong - will. Patience is the only way to handle the
saturn influence - since anything done under saturn
continues to carry it's inhibiting influence.
As far as natal aspects to saturn - they inhibit the normal
influences of the planets involved. A moon/saturn inhibits
the ability to express your emotions. You still feel them,
you just don't show them like others without the moon/saturn
influence do.
Regards, Pete
>
>
Alex
>
>Pete comments: first saturn return turns you into an adult.
>Nothing more or less. The second is the more difficult one
>- in that it brings public attention to your past
>accomplshnets.
How does my first Saturn return turns me into an adult? what circumstances
and challenges I will encounter in it that will eventually make me an adult?
What things will it show me that I havent had seen before earlier in my
adult life?
>Saturn is the source of our weakness. Under saturn whatever
>can go wrong - will. Patience is the only way to handle the
>saturn influence - since anything done under saturn
>continues to carry it's inhibiting influence.
So in the fifth house position, I will exhibit difficulty in love and
expressing my creativity then? How does Saturn blends through the houses? I
have read some parts of Saturn in different houses, but most of them says
negative things about it. I know that it is not telling me the whole story,
otherwise Astrology would
be useless as a tool for personal growth.
Pamela Gross
wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
> I have a different question this time, and this is with regards to my
>natal position of Saturn. A lot of textbooks on astrology that I had read so
>far had actually given me a grim outlook of this position...specially in the
>area of ROMANCE and LOVE!! and on top of that, my moon (in the 4th for
>placidus and 5th for Koch) is conjunct with saturn as if it isnt as bad as
>it seems.
Moon/Saturn can find themselves easily depressed, so you need to make
a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
>On top of that..Capricorn is my ascendant. Well I guess I need a
>little bit of advice on how to handle this aspect of mine. It seems that the
>astrology books are quite right about one thing...I am having trouble
>finding ROMANCE and LOVE in my life. I don't know if it is really the
>aspects...or if someone can tell me some positive placement of saturn here
>and it's aspects.
If Cap is your ascendant, then Saturn -- cranky old thing that he can
be -- is your chart ruler! And in my view, this gives him some power.
Saturn can be strength, endurance...
Saturn/Moon in the fifth: attractions to persons older than yourself?
or, much younger? Love affairs that stand the test of time? Slow
start maybe but in for the long haul?
> And this I also have been experiencing my first Saturn return
>here...so if any of you can offer any advice, support, or help, it will be
>greatly appreciated. Again..thanks again for all your help!! :-)
And that will highlight the issues of this placement and this house
for you, which are already important as a rule because your chart
ruler is there.
The first Saturn return is when many people decide and act upon
important roads to take in their life path: career, important
investments, marriage, children, etc.
Hope this helps to start with
Pam
Pamela Gross
be...@ix.netcom.com
Rheumatic Disease Web Site:
http://www.silcom.com/~sblc
Alex
>a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
The problem is...few books, if any lists any positive things about
Moon/Saturn conjunction. Can you think of any positive things about this
aspect? It will be of great help for me.
WondrinWhy
Because you may approach your goals carefully and seriously (ie. a bit
of a perfectionist), you may make few mistakes along the way!
Wondrin
Michael Solomon
not to totally isolate and focus on one particular aspect. Saturn is
the planet of cause and effect. It represents the limits of man in his
physical form (it is the furthest most planet visible to the naked eye).
It is the planet of experience, wisdom, stability, practicality and
consistency. If there were no Saturn we would all be 50 ft giants! It
gives form to our world and helps us define boundaries.
Without the stability and steadfastness represented by Saturn, the
world would be in complete and utter chaos and the Pluto/transPluto
ruled evolution would have never taken definite forms. Saturn is the
planet of definiteness of purpose, success and physical manifestation.
You won't find a successful man/woman on the planet without a well
developed Saturn. Mars may be ambition, but without Saturn behind it,
it becomes ruthlessness and aggression. Saturn makes us conscientious
and want to adapt to socially practical laws and regulations. Saturn
helps maintain the status quo and the norm.
Saturn in the 5th can just as easily mean that you take love, romance,
speculation, children and the offspring of your mind and body very
seriously. Or you have a sure and steady approach to self expression.
You are steadfast, committed and a determined partner in romance.
The main problem with Saturn is that if you don't live up to your
potential, if you force yourself into impractical lifestyles or work
against yourself, you will become depressed, pessimistic, self-
destructive and lonely. But this is only the effect of the cause. If
you allow yourself to become insecure, don't love yourself, take life
for granted, have ineffective or dysfunctional love styles Saturn will
guarantee that you will work on it in some way.
Self improvement and analysis must become your favorite pastime. If
you are insecure, learn to love and accept yourself the way you are.
Saturn conjunct Moon can indicate that you opress your inner self, that
you upset your own inner balance, that you tend to be harsh and
negative and that you repress or deny your sensitivity. You must learn
to not take things so seriously, go with the flow and be a joy to hang
around with. Negative people that are constantly whining and
complaining are no fun to be around. Listen to yourself express
yourself.
There is someone for everyone on this planet. Over a million potential
partners for you in the United States alone, what are you going to do
to find someone? Sit back and mope? No. Get out, put your best foot
forward, look to what you can do for others, not what they can do for
you, learn to love unconditionally and watch what happens.
When I hear a young person complaining about not being able to find
love I know from experience (a Saturn word) that it is usually because
you were taught ineffective and dysfunctional love styles at home.
Primarily from watching your mother and interreacting with her. This
would be especially true in your case if your Moon is in the 4th. The
role of the mother (or absense) played a greater than average
importance in your life. Did your parents get along well? So analyze
your relationship with your mother, learn what she taught you. Get rid
of what doesn't work. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming mothers
because you pick up a lot of stuff along the way in grade school and
especially in high school. Our media and music industry in the United
States in particular are probably the most to blame. 99% of what you
see and here about love and romance in the media is nothing but pure
love and romance addiction and codependency. A Moon in the 4th house
tends to produce a strong codependency. Learn about the traits and
characteristics of codependency (or addiction if Pisces(12th house) or
Scorpio (8th house) energies are strong in your chart). You may be
subconsciously attracting abusive and emotionally unavailable partners.
Here is a little test for codependency. Count the number of times in a
day you use the words "should", "ought", "why", "need [to][it]
and "try". If its more than once or twice a day...you may have a
problem with control issues.
What I'm trying to say is that this aspect isn't bad. Only thinking
makes it so. If you allow yourself to fall into self-pity and inertia
you'll experience pain. Saturn wants us to continually grow along
certain lines. Most people just drift through life aimlessly, like a
log floating downstream. They are at the mercy of their environment,
they don't use their talents or skills to get ahead and allow others to
control them. Saturn doesn't like drifting. Learn to work with the
energies and not against them and Saturn will guarantee the love that
you want. If you stay in the problem you won't be in the solution.
Effectiveness is based on results. Thats Saturn.
--
Website: http://www.geocities.com/~soloart98 Now hosting forums for
Astrolgy, Tarot, Marketplace and AstroAdvice.
Email directly to: mdsN...@soloart.com (remove NOSPAM)before sending.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Pamela Gross
wrote:
>>Moon/Saturn can find themselves easily depressed, so you need to make
>>a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
>
> The problem is...few books, if any lists any positive things about
>Moon/Saturn conjunction. Can you think of any positive things about this
>aspect? It will be of great help for me.
>
Some possible expressions of it:
emotionally responsible/stable, emotionally strong, worthy of trust,
not a "fair-weather friend". Respect for the feelings of others.
Managerial skills. Lots of common sense. Patient and practical.
Ability to be self-disciplined, self-motivated. Not reckless, foolish,
or insensitive.
As an aside, I happen to think Moon/Saturn contacts are just
*wonderful* ;)
Unbiased,
Pam
Moon trine Saturn
qtzc...@spamfree.texas.net
<mdsN...@soloart.com> wrote:
>There are yin and yang aspects to every aspect. It is also important
>not to totally isolate and focus on one particular aspect. Saturn is
>the planet of cause and effect. It represents the limits of man in his
>physical form (it is the furthest most planet visible to the naked eye).
>It is the planet of experience, wisdom, stability, practicality and
>consistency. If there were no Saturn we would all be 50 ft giants! It
>gives form to our world and helps us define boundaries.
>
>Without the stability and steadfastness represented by Saturn, the
>world would be in complete and utter chaos and the Pluto/transPluto
>ruled evolution would have never taken definite forms. Saturn is the
>planet of definiteness of purpose, success and physical manifestation.
>You won't find a successful man/woman on the planet without a well
>developed Saturn.
Ummm - are you sure? Of course, all it takes is to find *one*
successful person to blow the claim...
But then again - a person most likely will have learned to deal with
form and discipline in order to *remain* a success. (versus the
flash-in-the-pan).
>Mars may be ambition, but without Saturn behind it,
>it becomes ruthlessness and aggression. Saturn makes us conscientious
>and want to adapt to socially practical laws and regulations. Saturn
>helps maintain the status quo and the norm.
>
>Saturn in the 5th can just as easily mean that you take love, romance,
>speculation, children and the offspring of your mind and body very
>seriously. Or you have a sure and steady approach to self expression.
>You are steadfast, committed and a determined partner in romance.
>
>The main problem with Saturn is that if you don't live up to your
>potential, if you force yourself into impractical lifestyles or work
>against yourself, you will become depressed, pessimistic, self-
>destructive and lonely. But this is only the effect of the cause. If
>you allow yourself to become insecure, don't love yourself, take life
>for granted, have ineffective or dysfunctional love styles Saturn will
>guarantee that you will work on it in some way.
>
>Self improvement and analysis must become your favorite pastime. If
>you are insecure, learn to love and accept yourself the way you are.
I see all the above applying to me, with sun squ sat 5 deg away from
the 5th cusp. I've done the dysfunctional saturn thing - but now I'm
doing the *functional* thing... life is *much* better.
Just last night I was saying that I wanted to be more disciplined. I
used (10-25 years ago) to be quite disciplined, but rigid. I went the
other way more recently, but there is so much creative stuff I want to
do that I must find a way to be disciplined again. I will.
FWIW - the below is first-rate, right-on writing. Bravo, Michael!
Julie, Leo (asc)
alex
Michael Solomon wrote:
All through our my life, I always seek out to improve myself, but
usually to no avail. As far as I remember this hobby of self-improvement as
a pastime I had been doing as early age as 11 years old even!! I always
want to find out my inner self and from that, to really know the secret of
my soul. I use to practice (and have the discipline) to meditate twice a day
for an hour and can set aside besides that, to do a quick self-therapy to
myself. But I have abandon all of those, as they didnt serve their function
as well. I want a more deeper knowing of myself, and I can't somehow
penetrate the barrier of contacting my subconscious self and really seeing
who really am I. Mabye someday (in fact, this moment, I am thinking of
continuing this practice) I will be able to do what I could to bring back
this discipline, specially meditation, as it did great things for
myself----less stress and I am always relax and can act consciously. I only
repress and deny my sensitivity because I am afraid to get hurt. One thing
as well is that most people take for granted the sensitivity that I express
through them, so I really am very bitter about that, so more repression. In
the love area....same thing as well. It is known that Saturn is a planet
that instills great patience whithin all of us. This is very true of
myself....but sometimes patience have it's limit as well. And because of
this, I am kinda bitter about the situation that I can't find the true love
that I seek for----thus more repression of sensitivity there. So as you can
see, it is more of a situational matter. I do know that I have great depth
of feelings whithin me (maybe the saying "still water runs deep" applies to
me pretty much) and I can express it as deeply and more passion but with the
right person, not just with anyone.
>
> There is someone for everyone on this planet. Over a million potential
> partners for you in the United States alone, what are you going to do
> to find someone? Sit back and mope? No. Get out, put your best foot
> forward, look to what you can do for others, not what they can do for
> you, learn to love unconditionally and watch what happens.
Yes there are a million potential partners. But however I do it..whatever
I do it..I do believe...I think if it is destiny that I will meet that
person or not that day...then no matter how I search for her, If I will meet
her, then I definitely will. I have a friend who almost always go out every
weekends and have fun on parties, but even for all that...he is knocking at
wrong doors all the time. He is still single, and no partner..and he is more
outgoing than I do. It is true that I increase my potential of meeting that
special someone if I go out more. But I wish I had been more outgoing. As
for loving unconditionally...well I dont really know what that means. I can
love myself unconditionally, but then....if still I wouldnt find love in my
life..then I wouldnt. I really do sound pessimistic...and your quite true at
your next comment that Saturn at this placement are prone to pessimism and
loneliness. I tried really hard to overcome this, but it is a very big
challenge in my life. I am always a loner and I always take strides in
helping myself before anyone helps me out, even if my boat is already
sinking!!
>
>
> When I hear a young person complaining about not being able to find
> love I know from experience (a Saturn word) that it is usually because
> you were taught ineffective and dysfunctional love styles at home.
> Primarily from watching your mother and interreacting with her. This
> would be especially true in your case if your Moon is in the 4th. The
> role of the mother (or absense) played a greater than average
> importance in your life. Did your parents get along well? So analyze
> your relationship with your mother, learn what she taught you. Get rid
> of what doesn't work. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming mothers
> because you pick up a lot of stuff along the way in grade school and
> especially in high school. Our media and music industry in the United
> States in particular are probably the most to blame. 99% of what you
> see and here about love and romance in the media is nothing but pure
> love and romance addiction and codependency. A Moon in the 4th house
> tends to produce a strong codependency. Learn about the traits and
> characteristics of codependency (or addiction if Pisces(12th house) or
> Scorpio (8th house) energies are strong in your chart). You may be
> subconsciously attracting abusive and emotionally unavailable partners.
>
> Here is a little test for codependency. Count the number of times in a
> day you use the words "should", "ought", "why", "need [to][it]
> and "try". If its more than once or twice a day...you may have a
> problem with control issues.
>
My childhood life is quite happy (although my mother is very strict
with us when we were growing up). In fact, my parents are my role model of
what love should be. Although there were friction between me and my mom from
time to time when we were growing up, but as fast as they become, they are
as fast to go as well! I think they really are perfect for each other and my
parents rarely have a big fight even when we were kids. My dad and my mom
had not only once or twice shown us what love is...but they did make it
clear to us what true love really is, and if I would ever had a relationship
and ever get married in the future, I will always remember how much my
parents taught me what love is, and be like them.
>
> What I'm trying to say is that this aspect isn't bad. Only thinking
> makes it so. If you allow yourself to fall into self-pity and inertia
> you'll experience pain. Saturn wants us to continually grow along
> certain lines. Most people just drift through life aimlessly, like a
> log floating downstream. They are at the mercy of their environment,
> they don't use their talents or skills to get ahead and allow others to
> control them. Saturn doesn't like drifting. Learn to work with the
> energies and not against them and Saturn will guarantee the love that
> you want. If you stay in the problem you won't be in the solution.
>
> Effectiveness is based on results. Thats Saturn.
>
I agree with this one hundred percent. Now that I am experiencing my
first Saturn return in this house, the feeling of self-pity, sorrow, and
lonliness increases day by day. I tried to combat this by implementing
creative leisure time in my life such as the study of astrology. But still,
the feeling is overwhelming sometimes, and if you have any suggestions as
well to this, be happy to give it to me next time. I will gladly welcome
this. By the way...your last paragraph just really makes perfect sense. I
wish that it is easier to do than done. And you are right of the mark as
well here...as closer my return comes, the more aimless my life becomes. I
try very hard to reclaim the goals, drive and ambition that I used to have
when I was younger. It is a very hard battle and I'm afraid that I am losing
very fast...I hope I win in the end though.
Keera A. Fox
> >
> >Pete comments: first saturn return turns you into an adult.
> >Nothing more or less. The second is the more difficult one
> >- in that it brings public attention to your past
> >accomplshnets.
>
> How does my first Saturn return turns me into an adult? what circumstances
> and challenges I will encounter in it that will eventually make me an adult?
> What things will it show me that I havent had seen before earlier in my
> adult life?
>
It finishes up your "growing up". You "grow up" from age 0-28 about and
then you enter the productive, adult phase. You're supposed to have left
home, be doing your own laundry, and even creating your own family.
Certainly it's standing on your own two feet, no matter what. The change
can be as concrete as getting married or as subtle as just realizing how
to take responsibility for your own feelings.
> >Saturn is the source of our weakness. Under saturn whatever
> >can go wrong - will. Patience is the only way to handle the
> >saturn influence - since anything done under saturn
> >continues to carry it's inhibiting influence.
>
> So in the fifth house position, I will exhibit difficulty in love and
> expressing my creativity then? How does Saturn blends through the houses? I
> have read some parts of Saturn in different houses, but most of them says
> negative things about it. I know that it is not telling me the whole story,
> otherwise Astrology would be useless as a tool for personal growth.
>
Where Saturn is in your chart is where you always have to work for/at to
get what's there. Nothing there is given for free or without thought.
You will constantly be wittling away at the issues Saturn presents you,
consciously or unconsciously. The upside is that whatever you learn, is
yours to keep.
You may also find that others have difficulty in exhibiting their love
for you, or accepting your creativity. You have to keep working at
presenting yourself, at figuring out how to put your best foot forward,
at how to make things better, how to ease the pain.
--
****** Keera in Norway ******
** Think big. Shrink to fit. **
** http://home.sol.no/~keera **
Pete
wrote:
>
>>
>>Pete comments: first saturn return turns you into an adult.
>>Nothing more or less. The second is the more difficult one
>>- in that it brings public attention to your past
>>accomplshnets.
>
>How does my first Saturn return turns me into an adult? what circumstances
>and challenges I will encounter in it that will eventually make me an adult?
>What things will it show me that I havent had seen before earlier in my
>adult life?
>
Pete comments: One of the basic changes has to do with your need to be
part of the crowd up to that time. The Saturn return takes away your
need to blend into the group by wearing the "peer" group uniform.
Being in "peer" group style is not longer a must.
This is also a time you start your lifes work. You now apply youself
to the application of what you have learned. You primary goal is to
make money.
You are now on you own and know it. Note there is nothing negative or
positive about a saturn return. This is in keeping with the concept
that nothing natural is "positive" or "negative." What is true about
a return of saturn is that it closes doors - you have moved on to a
new and larger life perspective.
>>Saturn is the source of our weakness. Under saturn whatever
>>can go wrong - will. Patience is the only way to handle the
>>saturn influence - since anything done under saturn
>>continues to carry it's inhibiting influence.
>
> So in the fifth house position, I will exhibit difficulty in love and
>expressing my creativity then? How does Saturn blends through the houses? I
>have read some parts of Saturn in different houses, but most of them says
>negative things about it. I know that it is not telling me the whole story,
>otherwise Astrology would be useless as a tool for personal growth.
Pete comments: A return of Saturn relates to a celestial cycle. It
relates to a transit of saturn to it's natal electro magnetic birth
imprint position. A transit of Saturn to natal Saturn only adds
additional emphasis to the orginal saturn imprint. It has nothing to
do with love or creativity or whatever - it only has to do with things
that are saturnian.
As far as astro housology - it's a psychic tool. Tropical
housologists use houses as a take off point for their psychic talent.
Housology has nothing to do with any astrological influence found in
the sky - there are no "houses" up in the sky. Hence, your "fifth"
house love or creativity psychic take off points are not affected by
anything astrological - especially planetary transits. When you
reject tropical housology (remove it from your astrology) you find a
vibrant and accurate astrology. To learn about your love nature -
look to the astrological influence constellational location of your
natal Venus and it's relationships within the rest of the chart.
I question the concept of venus being the source of creativity. Venus
seeks perfection - it also gives a fine sense of line and form. A
Venusian is color coded naturally. However, great inventors are
seldom Venusians. Look to Uranus here.
>
>>As far as natal aspects to saturn - they inhibit the normal
>>influences of the planets involved. A moon/saturn inhibits
>>the ability to express your emotions. You still feel them,
>>you just don't show them like others without the moon/saturn
>>influence do.
>>
>>Regards, Pete
>>
>>>
->>>
>>
>
>
Pete
wrote:
>>Moon/Saturn can find themselves easily depressed, so you need to make
>>a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
>
> The problem is...few books, if any lists any positive things about
>Moon/Saturn conjunction. Can you think of any positive things about this
>aspect? It will be of great help for me.
Pete comments: a moon/saturn inhibits our ability to be a lunatic.
>
>
>
>
Wally Anglesea™
Not you though.
Both a lunatic and a fraud.
Find out about Australia's most dangerous Doomsday Cult:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~wanglese/pebble.htm
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"needs sugar...." -Socrates
EHWollmann
>wrote:
>
>>>Moon/Saturn can find themselves easily depressed, so you need to make
>>>a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
The planets or any other factor in astrology does not MAKE us anything. It
reflects the consciousness of a person whose fears (Saturn) may be very
unconscious (Moon) and patterned by a rigid and judgmental parental
environment.
>> The problem is...few books, if any lists any positive things about
>>Moon/Saturn conjunction.
Focus and pragmatism.
> Can you think of any positive things about this
>>aspect? It will be of great help for me.
Yes, it allows you to become aware more than others of how your negative
unconscious beliefs may create a reality that you don't prefer, and therefore
more power to change it.
Hope that helps a little.
"He who drinks from my mouth will become as I am, and I shall be he." The
Gospel according to St. Thomas
anonym™
>
> >On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 05:13:52 GMT, "Alex" <downloa...@hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>>Moon/Saturn can find themselves easily depressed, so you need to make
> >>>a list of the positives of this aspect and tape it on your mirror! ;)
>
> The planets or any other factor in astrology does not MAKE us anything.
He didn't say it did, schmuck.
What factor made you write "Orion is a star" and "Tau Ceti is in the
constellation Taurus", asshole?
--
"And I have already debunked the idea that I wear underware on any part of
my body." Ed "Stinkbomb" Wollmann
"THE NUMBER-IIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
IIIIIIIIIIRRRRRREEEEEELLLLLLLEEEEEEVVVVVVVAAAAAANNNNNNTTTTT." Ed
"Rantfuck" Wollmann
el...@no.spam
=?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <ano...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>What factor made you write "Orion is a star" and "Tau Ceti is in the
>constellation Taurus", asshole?
Maybe it was the tequila factor.
--
"the difference between me nd you idiots is that I can get in a bar brawl
(I was a hoodlum biker for>years) down a 5th of Tequlia, kick the fuck
out of you, talk like this-AND STILL post something of value, counsel
persons and meitate on nature, and do a piece of art to find center."
-Edmond Wollmann, a$trologer, liar, spammer, hypocrite, censor, Jan. '98 KoTM
http://www.databasix.com/officialcharters/alt/astrology/metapsych/charter.html
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~wnidiffe/bamt/astrolies/
Bill Keesing
<el...@no.spam> wrote in message news:7l8gt1$ouh$1...@no.spam...
> In article <377729BE...@pacbell.net>,
> =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <ano...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >What factor made you write "Orion is a star" and "Tau Ceti is in the
> >constellation Taurus", asshole?
>
> Maybe it was the tequila factor.
Tequila Sunset?
Or is that Tequila Starrise?
:-)
--
Bill Keesing
Usual Disclaimers blah personal opinions blah de blah
http://users.iconz.co.nz/keesing
See Web site for PGP key
Substitute bill (a) keesing hyphen keay period gen period nz
for above email address