Phobias.
Christine
What astrological significator(s) would constitute a phobia?
Do you think the type of phobia will be shown by a specific planet ?
I am currently thinking of a blood phobia. The person passes out (Neptune?)
at the sight of blood. I believe the blood is Mars-ruled.
In the horoscope chart Saturn and Pluto are exact degree semi-square, and
Mars sextiles Pluto but squares the Virgo Ascendant. The sextile forms the
base of a yod to 4th house Mercury in Capricorn, which is also part of a
T-square with Moon-Mercury-Neptune. Mercury (it's all in the mind?) would
literally seem to be the connecting factor, yet the person believes to know
the circumstances that produced the phobia, so it isn't subsconscious as
such.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this and/or have other examples?
Regards,
Christine.
kjelleman
I used to be have this something like this too, but its gone now it
seems. It seems I have just grown out of it. I could even look at my
own blood when I was in hospital a couple of months ago. Could hardly
stand flue shots and the like before (Neptune opp Mars?) either. So
you can tell your client the good news that it might go away with
time! :-)
Pluto is obsessive, and a phobia certainly has an obsessive quality to
it in a way. Your mind is arrested by a thought/feeling and cannot let
go of it. Saturn is fear and should be included at any rate. I also
think that exact aspects would be likely to produce a phobia since the
compulsion to (re)act a certain way to a certain stimuli would be
exaggerated since a transit to one body would also be a transit to the
other, giving less space for the subject to "manouver" freely, being
more "hypnotized" by what happens (hypnotized must be Pluto by the
way). Lock-in-step-syndrome. A tight transit also gives less time to
find an alternate reaction/thought. That it is blood that is the
phobia here seems to be but a symptom of the inner conflict between
Saturn and Pluto, and Pluto more easily redirects the attention to
Mars through the sextile.
So I think your outline makes good sense.
I don't think Neptune would HAVE to be involved though. Neptune is
about altered states of consciousness, for instance dreams, but when
you have fainted you are really not entering another state of
consciousness but rather leaving the sphere of possible
consciousnesses for a short while. However, it does have something
which reminds of suffocating to it (the brain doesn't get enough
blood, which deprives it of oxygen), which I think is Neptune so
perhaps Neptune is in there somewhere anyhow. In my case it is
involved through an exact square to Saturn so I can't say for certain
it mustn't be there. (Neptune square Saturn = irrational fears?)
Fainting is about loosing the blood from your head to the heart and
the interior organs of your body. It's how the body make sure you lie
down so that you'll don't have to work that hard to pump the blood
around and fainting in reaction to blood MIGHT have a survival value
from deep down our genetic memory and might thus have to do with the
fourth house (my Pluto placement btw) and might therefore differ from
other phobic reactions, due to its clear-cut survival value. Snakes
would too as people are in comparision more easily triggered into
phobic reactions towards snakes from rather innocent stimuli than into
other phobias. (That too I've learned from a post-phobic friend can
become better with time.)
Myself I don't have any clear-cut Saturn/Pluto connection (unless you
count 153 and a half degree as an aspect) but Saturn squares Mars,
which is in an exact trine to Pluto, and Pluto receives stress from
elsewhere. They also both connect to Mercury so you might have
something there with Mercury playing a part in the show. In my case
Mercury directly or indirectly disposits of all planets except Jupiter
in Pisces (which is opposing Virgo Pluto) and Saturn in Aquarius.
Squares Jupiter and trines Saturn. It too is ambivalent about Pluto
and Saturn, just like Mars but the other way around.
If the person knows very well what situation caused the phobia to come
into being perhaps it would be possible to see what transits might
have been active at the time? They could give further clues.
A final word on phobia treatment. I have read that EMDR (Eye Movement
Desensitization and Reprocessing) is a therapy used against this and
the therapy has proven useful in working with traumatized people
(post-traumatic stress disorder), which in ways are quite analogous
with phobias as they too are "hypnotized" by certain memory pictures.
See link for more information: http://www.emdr.com/
/Kjell
comes...@hotmail.com
Wow, that's an interesting question, and one I've never really thought
about...
I can only say that the subject of phobias is a very subtle and complex
one, and I suspect it would very difficult to know what to look for to
determine if the native has any; and all but impossible to ascertain
specifics. For one thing, almost everybody, no matter how well adjusted,
seems to have one (at least), to a certain degree. Besides, some of them
seem to me to be almost a logical extension of a valid fear. Who
*doesn't* find the idea of being buried alive or falling from a great
height terrifying?
On the other hand, a true phobia, of course, is an *irrational* fear of
something that isn't threatening per se - can indeed be something most
people love, such as puppies.
But how to determine this astrologically just seems to me to be
something astrology has yet to reveal. Many phobias seem to have their
origin in childhood, when so many things make such a powerful impact
upon the imagination. It does seem to me that a powerful, unreasonable
fear is grounded in the primal, emotional part of the mind; and seems to
be impervious to the "mature, logical" way of seeing things. Thus, the
closest I can theorize is that perhaps a strongly emotional nature
(water signs, Moon), a lack of earth, along with prominent Neptune
(magnifying something out of it's true proportion/imbuing an object or
concept with "unreal" properties, etc.) or Pluto (deep seated, primal
forces) may be in evidence.
But that's just mere conjecture.
This is an area that certainly offers an opportunity for much
interesting research!
Best,
~ Roger
Martin Lewicki
news:cd1p75$56a$1...@reader13.wxs.nl:
I suspect Neptune-Saturn.
There's the delusion and then there's the reality
Martin
--
Replace username: mlewicki
Relpace dot delimited numbers with ozemail com au
Christine
"kjelleman" <kjel...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1c2c0212.04071...@posting.google.com...
> I used to be have this something like this too, but its gone now it
> seems. It seems I have just grown out of it. I could even look at my
> own blood when I was in hospital a couple of months ago. Could hardly
> stand flue shots and the like before (Neptune opp Mars?) either. So
> you can tell your client the good news that it might go away with
> time! :-)
>
> Pluto is obsessive, and a phobia certainly has an obsessive quality to
> it in a way. Your mind is arrested by a thought/feeling and cannot let
> go of it. Saturn is fear and should be included at any rate. I also
> think that exact aspects would be likely to produce a phobia since the
> compulsion to (re)act a certain way to a certain stimuli would be
> exaggerated since a transit to one body would also be a transit to the
> other, giving less space for the subject to "manouver" freely, being
> more "hypnotized" by what happens (hypnotized must be Pluto by the
> way). Lock-in-step-syndrome. A tight transit also gives less time to
> find an alternate reaction/thought. That it is blood that is the
> phobia here seems to be but a symptom of the inner conflict between
> Saturn and Pluto, and Pluto more easily redirects the attention to
> Mars through the sextile.
>
> So I think your outline makes good sense.
>
Hi Kjell (and I also include Roger).
Thanks for your responses and may I add that your astrological knowledge is
increasing by the day, Kjell. You're a natural. What a difference a year
makes, eh? Great!
Some added info.
The person is my husband. At 60+, it may be difficult to outgrow it :-)
He says he thinks it comes from the memory of, as a 4 year-old, having his
tonsils removed without anaesthetic, the sight and pain that went with it,
being only able to drink dairy fluids for days afterwards. I have never seen
him touch milk or yoghurt in 40 years, and he has an adversity that brings
out a cold sweat towards hospitals! I can hardly believe such surgery would
not be anaesthesiasised but that he has some kind of inborn defence
mechanism that counteracts its effect. Dental anaesthesia doesn't 'deaden
his nerves' totally either. So, I can see his Moon in Cancer (water,
Roger!)-Mercury-Neptune
T-square working in this, whilst his 10th house Saturn in Gemini does not
aspect it. The two parts work independent of each other.
He has a Mars-Uranus conjunction, both retrograde. Could this be associated
with his rarer blood type?
I followed an introduction to psychology course many years ago. The
psychologist had dabbled with astrology and considered phobia to be a Pluto
indisposition because Pluto tends to deal with unresolved emotional
questions. Yet the 'irrationality' that you both mentioned in your posts
that creates an illogical phobia Roger mentioned, would seem to be an
indisposition of the psyche, which is more Neptune-classed, don't you think?
Neptune and Pluto are directly unaspected in his chart, but meet up via
Mercury as already mentioned.
When searching the web without success for an astrological significator,
phobia was always classed with panic and anxiety attacks, which would appear
to be a Saturn-Neptune product. Once again, unaspected in his chart.
Your comment, Kjell, about an obsessive reaction to outer stimuli would
imply a Moon-Pluto aspect. Once again, unaspected in his chart, whilst
Neptune (association with hospitalisation?) does square Moon in Cancer,
the strong water element Roger implied.
The most interesting thing is that none of the planets mentioned rule his
6th house of health with Aquarius on the cusp, unless one uses the trad.
ruler, Saturn, as an indicator. This would strengthen the importance of the
Saturn-Pluto semi-square, which aspect is recognised as a pre-disposition
towards health problems. Prior life themes might play a role in such an
aspect? He has definite ideas about this, as well as strong premonitions
through dreams which turn out in reality. He fears and tries to control the
latter.
'Control' has always been a VERY strong factor of his character; not so much
the having of it, but keeping himself under control and not allowing his
moon feelings and emotions to show. He considers this a sign of weakness.
Everyone says that he has built and lived with a wall around, and to protect
himself from, his feelings. Needless to say there was a father-son emotional
problem in youth. Admittedly, there is much inner rage that is kept under
control ( the yod?) but I don't think this is connected with the phobia.
As a matter of interest, his birth data is:
12 December 1943,
23.50 MET (- 1 hr. for GMT)
Haarlem, 52N23, 04E38.
> I don't think Neptune would HAVE to be involved though. Neptune is
> about altered states of consciousness, for instance dreams, but when
> you have fainted you are really not entering another state of
> consciousness but rather leaving the sphere of possible
> consciousnesses for a short while. However, it does have something
> which reminds of suffocating to it (the brain doesn't get enough
> blood, which deprives it of oxygen), which I think is Neptune so
> perhaps Neptune is in there somewhere anyhow. In my case it is
> involved through an exact square to Saturn so I can't say for certain
> it mustn't be there. (Neptune square Saturn = irrational fears?)
>
The psychology course indicated that fainting was a temporary form of 'self
preservation'; losing consciousness of reality.
There are many forms when loss of consciousness and reality is necessary to
save one from physical or psychic pain. I believe this to be a Neptune
influence as well, just as the altered states into other worlds of
consciousness are. Both would involve Saturn, the ruler of physical reality.
I was also taught that it ruled density and gravity, that which keeps us
earthbound or 'tied to the earth', but I vaguely remember a post from
Pedantus which appeared to contradict this line of thought.
I think there is something to be said for your Saturn-Neptune referring to
irrational fears. Like you, I have a Saturn-Neptune square but your Saturn
leads Neptune whilst mine has to succumb to it :-)
> Fainting is about loosing the blood from your head to the heart and
> the interior organs of your body. It's how the body make sure you lie
> down so that you'll don't have to work that hard to pump the blood
> around and fainting in reaction to blood MIGHT have a survival value
> from deep down our genetic memory and might thus have to do with the
> fourth house
His 'rarer' blood type might induce 4th house Mercury in Capricorn thoughts
of "I'm dying" when he loses any (he's a bit of a hypochondriac), so the
self-survival instinct (Mars-Pluto?) and losing consciousness through
Neptune takes over, or releases him in a positive way from such scary
thoughts (Mercury in Cap.), and he faints?
(my Pluto placement btw) and might therefore differ from
> other phobic reactions, due to its clear-cut survival value. Snakes
> would too as people are in comparision more easily triggered into
> phobic reactions towards snakes from rather innocent stimuli than into
> other phobias. (That too I've learned from a post-phobic friend can
> become better with time.)
>
> Myself I don't have any clear-cut Saturn/Pluto connection (unless you
> count 153 and a half degree as an aspect) but Saturn squares Mars,
> which is in an exact trine to Pluto, and Pluto receives stress from
> elsewhere. They also both connect to Mercury so you might have
> something there with Mercury playing a part in the show.
Well, Mercury could produce the thoughts that connect with a phobia, anyway.
That seems to be about the clearest factor so far :-)
In my case
> Mercury directly or indirectly disposits of all planets except Jupiter
> in Pisces (which is opposing Virgo Pluto) and Saturn in Aquarius.
> Squares Jupiter and trines Saturn. It too is ambivalent about Pluto
> and Saturn, just like Mars but the other way around.
>
> If the person knows very well what situation caused the phobia to come
> into being perhaps it would be possible to see what transits might
> have been active at the time? They could give further clues.
>
> A final word on phobia treatment. I have read that EMDR (Eye Movement
> Desensitization and Reprocessing) is a therapy used against this and
> the therapy has proven useful in working with traumatized people
> (post-traumatic stress disorder), which in ways are quite analogous
> with phobias as they too are "hypnotized" by certain memory pictures.
>
> See link for more information: http://www.emdr.com/
>
> /Kjell
That is very interesting. I noticed that his eyelids were very 'active' last
time he fainted, as if something was going on behind them. 'IF' the surgery
when he was young was performed without anaesthesia, the memory would
certainly have traumatized such a small child. Maybe I can get him to just
read about the treatment. He is so strong-willed, admits his fear, I doubt
he'll take it further and 'do' something about it, and he'd never agree to
going under hypnosis willingly. Strangely, in English there is a phrase
'bloody-minded' when someone refuses to see anything another way. It
literally fits in his case, doesn't it ?
That or his Saggy horse blinkers :-))
Thanks again very much Kjell and Roger for the input. Maybe we'll get some
more reactions to find a common denominator.
Best regards,
Christine.
EHWollmann
>Message-id: <22004-40F...@storefull-3237.bay.webtv.net>
>Hi Christine,
>
>Wow, that's an interesting question, and one I've never really thought
>about...
>I can only say that the subject of phobias is a very subtle and complex
>one, and I suspect it would very difficult to know what to look for to
>determine if the native has any; and all but impossible to ascertain
>specifics. For one thing, almost everybody, no matter how well adjusted,
>seems to have one (at least), to a certain degree. Besides, some of them
>seem to me to be almost a logical extension of a valid fear. Who
>*doesn't* find the idea of being buried alive or falling from a great
>height terrifying?
>On the other hand, a true phobia, of course, is an *irrational* fear of
>something that isn't threatening per se - can indeed be something most
>people love, such as puppies.
>But how to determine this astrologically just seems to me to be
>something astrology has yet to reveal.
This is because astrology can only help find the sources or issues that might
allow the identity to create the phobia, because as mentioned before, when one
develops through such an issue, it can dissapear with resolution, while the
chart one is born with remains the same.
Astrology is a tool to help in the counseling process, both for client and
therapist, to increase awareness of issues created by the CLIENT, not the
chart.
In the same way a mirror provides a helpful reflection to assist in combing our
hair, WE must still do the combing, and no amount of argument will confuse us
(well most of us:-)) that the mirror somehow affects our hairstyle or its
organization.:-)
Except of course, indirectly through the self-awareness it provides.
"Everybody's got a handful of fears-but tomorrow it may only be a sovenir of
the way it was, till it went away. If you want me-you-tell me now, if I can be
of any help, tell me how. Let me love you like a friend. Every little thing is
gonna go right in the end!" Paul McCartney "Souvenir"
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
(C) 2004 Altair Publications, SAN 299-5603
Astrological Consulting http://www.astroconsulting.com/
Articles http://www.astroconsulting.com/FAQs/info.htm
Artworks http://www.e-wollmann.com/TOC.htm
EHWollmann
>Message-id: <cd1p75$56a$1...@reader13.wxs.nl>
>Hi All,
>What astrological significator(s) would constitute a phobia?
A phobia "is an intense, irrational fear of an object that is not particularly
dangerous" Self-Efficacy, page 317, Perasonality Theories, Bem P. Allen, 2003
Pearson Education Inc, 4th edition.
This idea clearly belongs to Saturn.
>Do you think the type of phobia will be shown by a specific planet ?
In developmental aspect with Saturn, yes. Saturn itself reflects the identities
greatest probable fears of the physical world or its place in it.
>I am currently thinking of a blood phobia. The person passes out (Neptune?)
>at the sight of blood. I believe the blood is Mars-ruled.
Yes, I agree with the rulerships, but one could not make a determination of
such phobias based on developmental patterns. This might be reflected in a
Mars/Saturn/Neptune T-sqaure for example--but this same configuration could
indicate a highly skilled physician-- we cannot tell without:
A) Delineating the law of momentum flow (the overall indicies of belief
momentum including Element prominence)
B) Interviewing the subject at hand by a skilled counselor.
>In the horoscope chart Saturn and Pluto are exact degree semi-square, and
>Mars sextiles Pluto but squares the Virgo Ascendant. The sextile forms the
>base of a yod to 4th house Mercury in Capricorn, which is also part of a
>T-square with Moon-Mercury-Neptune.
What is the Sun/Moon blend? We cannot tell much of anything without this
crucial factor, to make an assessment of the strength of personality and its
level of integrity (aspects between said bodies).
>Mercury (it's all in the mind?) would
>literally seem to be the connecting factor,
Mercury only tells us HOW the individual processes and receives information
from the environment. So this configuration you cite adds difficulty to the
perceptive acuity. It cannot tell us the potential for delusional or other
psychological dysfunctions without a thorough analysis as I described above.
>yet the person believes to know
>the circumstances that produced the phobia, so it isn't subsconscious as
>such.
Well, this does not mean that the person understands the dynamics of the
psychological dysfunction. Many of my clients can see EXACTLY the relationship
or event that "lends impact to their behavior", and yet during the
consultation, all the while they profess an awareness of the issue, I can still
point to responses and behavior that contradicts the idea that because they see
it, they control the habit patterns. Much like being aware that one has a
problem or habit with smoking, does not automatically indicate that one can
reverse the behavior at any moment or immediately. FULL conscious commandment
is acheived through self-critical diligent monitoring--that leads to altered
responses to similar events. This is what counsel and therapy is for.
In the same way I make statements on usenet concerning habit patterns or
creating ones reality and am immediately met with arguments, defense and
resistence that is primarily the effect of the inability for the respondent to
clearly see and control their own developmental issues and/or understand
clearly the origin of the defense that resides in engrained belief systems they
have been taught are "THE TRUTH". This is not an inflammatory statement, simply
an analogy to the above issue we are discussing and why the aware person may
create internal conflict in the less-aware person in interaction with deeper
issues.
>Does anyone have any thoughts on this and/or have other examples?
>Regards,
>Christine.
Yes, an example I have was a Gemini, Moon in Taurus, Mercury opposing Saturn
(Disposing of Sun) from Gemini/Sagittarius--who--in short--was so traumatized
by the father as to have many irrational phobias with regard to the everyday
events and issues in the physical world many of us take for granted as safe and
non-issue.
Hope this adds to this thread and to the ideas being discussed.
"Therapy is not a matter of doing something to the individual, or of inducing
him to do something about himself. It is instead a matter of freeing him for
normal growth and development." Rogers, 1942, (p.29) Handbook of
Self-actualization, "Client Centered Therapy."
Christine
>
> If the person knows very well what situation caused the phobia to come
> into being perhaps it would be possible to see what transits might
> have been active at the time? They could give further clues.
>
>
I thought this might be interesting.
He cut his finger badly last Friday afternoon when sharpening a
knife. The red on the white porcelain bathroom sink produced the now
recogniseable symptons. He passed out. ( Last time, he passed out falling on
top of the w.c., breaking it). The time was 'about' 14:50 (daughter,
granddaughters came for tea).
The transits for the time shows the following:
Tr. Jupiter and tr. Neptune are currently quincunx to each other. Jupiter is
3 mins. of a degree past exactness to natal Virgo Asc., Neptune in the 5th
house is 7 mins.
past exact quincunx to natal Asc.
Tr. Moon in Aries in his 8th house, separating trine by 39 mins. to natal
Sun.
Tr. Mercury is exact to one minute of natal Pluto. {{{YES!!!!!!.}}}
Tr. Mars had completed the conjunction to Pluto and was within 13 mins. to
sextile natal Mars in Gemini.
Transiting Ascendant (for our village) in Scorpio in his 3rd house. It is
within 13 mins. exact semi-square natal 4th house Sun and 7 mins. past exact
trine to natal Moon in Cancer. It was closely applying conjunct natal Venus.
I applied Venus ruled iodine to the wound :-)
Tr. Sun and Saturn are conjunct within a degree to each other but contact
nothing in the
chart. "Everything goes black" as he passes out; I would have thought
Saturn would show up somewhere. Would this signify that Saturn does not play
a role in this particular type of phobia?
Tr. Chiron in Capricorn makes a long term inconjunct to Saturn
Tr. Uranus is in long term square to itself.
Tr. Pluto makes a long term conjunction to natal Sun.
>From this, it would appear that the effects of Mercury-Mars to Pluto and the
transiting Moon to Sun are the most significant to describe this latest
event, whilst the 3rd and 8th house, Aries and Scorpio emphasis for the
moment can
hardly be called accidental coincidence.
Best regards,
Christine.
Michael Rideout
====================================================
Interesting. My brother too has a phobia of blood/needles/injections and he
has a Mars/Neptune square..
Spica
"Christine" <a.h...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:cd1p75$56a$1...@reader13.wxs.nl...
Christine
"EHWollmann" <ehwol...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20040714113911...@mb-m16.aol.com...
[..]>
> >In the horoscope chart Saturn and Pluto are exact degree semi-square, and
> >Mars sextiles Pluto but squares the Virgo Ascendant. The sextile forms
the
> >base of a yod to 4th house Mercury in Capricorn, which is also part of a
> >T-square with Moon-Mercury-Neptune.
> What is the Sun/Moon blend? We cannot tell much of anything without this
> crucial factor, to make an assessment of the strength of personality and
its
> level of integrity (aspects between said bodies).
10th house Moon in Cancer is 165*20' to 4th house Sun in Sagittarius. There
have been a few posts at times as to whether 165* is an aspect and what it's
meaning would be. It seems to crop up quite often in charts. I have wondered
if it could contain effects of a 120* + 45*, but then I guess one could
make a 90* + 30* of the 120* trine, which would provide an entirely
different meaning to what one was taught!
>
> >Mercury (it's all in the mind?) would
> >literally seem to be the connecting factor,
> Mercury only tells us HOW the individual processes and receives
information
> from the environment. So this configuration you cite adds difficulty to
the
> perceptive acuity. It cannot tell us the potential for delusional or other
> psychological dysfunctions without a thorough analysis as I described
above.
>
The remark was made in an attempt to seek possible answers via astrological
configurations rather than make any claim as to how it will function.
Mercury is
at the apex of a yod with Mars-Pluto, which planets rule the Virgo
Ascendant (and MC), the 3rd house associated with the thought processes, and
the 8th
house associated with unknown or emotionally repressed factors, plus the
fact that Mercury in Capricorn is in the 4th house associated with
subconscious tendancies. Could this configuration, therefore, not imply a
mental application toward fact and reality only, running alongside a
difficulty to think
about, process, and deal with any information that is of a psychological
nature? It's no coincidence that he actually puts up his Mercury-ruled hands
to block any attempt to talk to him about that which he cannot consciously
deal with. The same configuration, however, also provides the qualities
inherent in a sometimes ruthless and powerful sales businessman who could
sell you the shirt you're wearing and make you think *you* had got the
bargain :-).
The T-square with Moon and Neptune would also show Mercury in Capricorn's
tendancy to block out images it didn't want to remember, wouldn't it ?
> >yet the person believes to know
> >the circumstances that produced the phobia, so it isn't subsconscious as
> >such.
>
> Well, this does not mean that the person understands the dynamics of the
> psychological dysfunction.
He is not the one who wants to understand it; I do !
>Many of my clients can see EXACTLY the relationship
> or event that "lends impact to their behavior", and yet during the
> consultation, all the while they profess an awareness of the issue, I can
still
> point to responses and behavior that contradicts the idea that because
they see
> it, they control the habit patterns. Much like being aware that one has a
> problem or habit with smoking, does not automatically indicate that one
can
> reverse the behavior at any moment or immediately.
As I mentioned in the earlier post, he is aware of the reason and that he
cannot control the result of it. He doesn't profess to be in control of it
[..]
>
> >Does anyone have any thoughts on this and/or have other examples?
>
> Yes, an example I have was a Gemini, Moon in Taurus, Mercury opposing
Saturn
> (Disposing of Sun) from Gemini/Sagittarius--who--in short--was so
traumatized
> by the father as to have many irrational phobias with regard to the
everyday
> events and issues in the physical world many of us take for granted as
safe and
> non-issue.
> Hope this adds to this thread and to the ideas being discussed.
Thank you for the example. You are implying that the father-induced phobias
were a result of only the aspects mentioned? As I said in a previous post I
do not think this applies in my husband's case, although his Saturn-Pluto
coincides with other events, and he has the Sun-Saturn opposition now being
activated by tr. Pluto. (At the exact 4th house Sun conjunction today, we
attended the funeral of his aunt, the last remaining senior member of his
family line.)
Regards,
Christine.
kjelleman
> "kjelleman" <kjel...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1c2c0212.04071...@posting.google.com...
[---]
> Hi Kjell (and I also include Roger).
> Thanks for your responses and may I add that your astrological knowledge is
> increasing by the day, Kjell. You're a natural. What a difference a year
> makes, eh? Great!
Thanks! :-)
>
> Some added info.
> The person is my husband. At 60+, it may be difficult to outgrow it :-)
> He says he thinks it comes from the memory of, as a 4 year-old, having his
> tonsils removed without anaesthetic, the sight and pain that went with it,
> being only able to drink dairy fluids for days afterwards. I have never seen
> him touch milk or yoghurt in 40 years, and he has an adversity that brings
> out a cold sweat towards hospitals! I can hardly believe such surgery would
> not be anaesthesiasised but that he has some kind of inborn defence
> mechanism that counteracts its effect. Dental anaesthesia doesn't 'deaden
> his nerves' totally either. So, I can see his Moon in Cancer (water,
> Roger!)-Mercury-Neptune
> T-square working in this, whilst his 10th house Saturn in Gemini does not
> aspect it. The two parts work independent of each other.
This is interesting. Now that you mention it I came to remember that
when I was like three years old (I actually don't know exactly) I was
treated for ear infection in a very painful way. The doctor told me
"this wont hurt" and it hurt like h***! (I don't know if the pain or
the treachery was the worst thing.)
>
> He has a Mars-Uranus conjunction, both retrograde. Could this be associated
> with his rarer blood type?
>
> I followed an introduction to psychology course many years ago. The
> psychologist had dabbled with astrology and considered phobia to be a Pluto
> indisposition because Pluto tends to deal with unresolved emotional
> questions. Yet the 'irrationality' that you both mentioned in your posts
> that creates an illogical phobia Roger mentioned, would seem to be an
> indisposition of the psyche, which is more Neptune-classed, don't you think?
> Neptune and Pluto are directly unaspected in his chart, but meet up via
> Mercury as already mentioned.
I am now thinking that what he has (and I have had too) perhaps isn't
a phobia proper but something else. Also from your other post how
Saturn wasn't involved in transit. Perhaps it isn't a FEAR reaction
(which is what phobias are actually about, I even think the very word
means that).
As I think about when this has happened to me the only fear I can
recall is the fear it might happen, but not any fear in the actual
situation. In the actual situation it's much more physical than
related to what thoughts and feelings I might have about the situation
and what I see.
>
> When searching the web without success for an astrological significator,
> phobia was always classed with panic and anxiety attacks, which would appear
> to be a Saturn-Neptune product. Once again, unaspected in his chart.
>
> Your comment, Kjell, about an obsessive reaction to outer stimuli would
> imply a Moon-Pluto aspect. Once again, unaspected in his chart, whilst
> Neptune (association with hospitalisation?) does square Moon in Cancer,
> the strong water element Roger implied.
>
> The most interesting thing is that none of the planets mentioned rule his
> 6th house of health with Aquarius on the cusp, unless one uses the trad.
> ruler, Saturn, as an indicator.
Perhaps this thing, phobia or not, doesn't really affect his health
status or work situation? It didn't affect mine and I have a Sag sixth
house, not really heavily involved with those we are guessing would be
the major players here (Pluto, Mars, Neptune, Mercury et al).
That makes me associate with dreaming (REM-sleep) or an epileptic fit.
I have some vague memory of having seen that epileptics flicker with
their eyes while "gone". Perhaps this is a more "hard-wired" reaction
that phobias in general? (Actually, the reason mine disappeared is, I
think, that I had to endure things that were so much more terrible,
which was a trauma in itself, but might have had the benefit of
"rewiring" those childhood connections and updating them. But this is
all purely hypothetical.)
> 'IF' the surgery
> when he was young was performed without anaesthesia, the memory would
> certainly have traumatized such a small child. Maybe I can get him to just
> read about the treatment. He is so strong-willed, admits his fear, I doubt
> he'll take it further and 'do' something about it, and he'd never agree to
> going under hypnosis willingly.
It's a bit off-topic still but the treatment is not "hypnotic". I
don't think they know yet how come it works, but it seems to be more
like that the actual eye movements help the "memory banks" to
rearrange or something like that. Anyhow, it's not a kind of hypnosis
so he wont have to fear that at least.
/Kjell
[---]
kjelleman
> "kjelleman" <kjel...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1c2c0212.04071...@posting.google.com...
[---]
> Hi Kjell (and I also include Roger).
> Thanks for your responses and may I add that your astrological knowledge is
> increasing by the day, Kjell. You're a natural. What a difference a year
> makes, eh? Great!
Thanks! :-)
>
> Some added info.
> The person is my husband. At 60+, it may be difficult to outgrow it :-)
> He says he thinks it comes from the memory of, as a 4 year-old, having his
> tonsils removed without anaesthetic, the sight and pain that went with it,
> being only able to drink dairy fluids for days afterwards. I have never seen
> him touch milk or yoghurt in 40 years, and he has an adversity that brings
> out a cold sweat towards hospitals! I can hardly believe such surgery would
> not be anaesthesiasised but that he has some kind of inborn defence
> mechanism that counteracts its effect. Dental anaesthesia doesn't 'deaden
> his nerves' totally either. So, I can see his Moon in Cancer (water,
> Roger!)-Mercury-Neptune
> T-square working in this, whilst his 10th house Saturn in Gemini does not
> aspect it. The two parts work independent of each other.
This is interesting. Now that you mention it I came to remember that
when I was like three years old (I actually don't know exactly) I was
treated for ear infection in a very painful way. The doctor told me
"this wont hurt" and it hurt like h***! (I don't know if the pain or
the treachery was the worst thing.)
>
> He has a Mars-Uranus conjunction, both retrograde. Could this be associated
> with his rarer blood type?
>
> I followed an introduction to psychology course many years ago. The
> psychologist had dabbled with astrology and considered phobia to be a Pluto
> indisposition because Pluto tends to deal with unresolved emotional
> questions. Yet the 'irrationality' that you both mentioned in your posts
> that creates an illogical phobia Roger mentioned, would seem to be an
> indisposition of the psyche, which is more Neptune-classed, don't you think?
> Neptune and Pluto are directly unaspected in his chart, but meet up via
> Mercury as already mentioned.
I am now thinking that what he has (and I have had too) perhaps isn't
a phobia proper but something else. Also from your other post how
Saturn wasn't involved in transit. Perhaps it isn't a FEAR reaction
(which is what phobias are actually about, I even think the very word
means that).
As I think about when this has happened to me the only fear I can
recall is the fear it might happen, but not any fear in the actual
situation. In the actual situation it's much more physical than
related to what thoughts and feelings I might have about the situation
and what I see.
>
> When searching the web without success for an astrological significator,
> phobia was always classed with panic and anxiety attacks, which would appear
> to be a Saturn-Neptune product. Once again, unaspected in his chart.
>
> Your comment, Kjell, about an obsessive reaction to outer stimuli would
> imply a Moon-Pluto aspect. Once again, unaspected in his chart, whilst
> Neptune (association with hospitalisation?) does square Moon in Cancer,
> the strong water element Roger implied.
>
> The most interesting thing is that none of the planets mentioned rule his
> 6th house of health with Aquarius on the cusp, unless one uses the trad.
> ruler, Saturn, as an indicator.
Perhaps this thing, phobia or not, doesn't really affect his health
status or work situation? It didn't affect mine and I have a Sag sixth
house, not really heavily involved with those we are guessing would be
the major players here (Pluto, Mars, Neptune, Mercury et al).
That makes me associate with dreaming (REM-sleep) or an epileptic fit.
I have some vague memory of having seen that epileptics flicker with
their eyes while "gone". Perhaps this is a more "hard-wired" reaction
that phobias in general? (Actually, the reason mine disappeared is, I
think, that I had to endure things that were so much more terrible,
which was a trauma in itself, but might have had the benefit of
"rewiring" those childhood connections and updating them. But this is
all purely hypothetical.)
> 'IF' the surgery
> when he was young was performed without anaesthesia, the memory would
> certainly have traumatized such a small child. Maybe I can get him to just
> read about the treatment. He is so strong-willed, admits his fear, I doubt
> he'll take it further and 'do' something about it, and he'd never agree to
> going under hypnosis willingly.
It's a bit off-topic still but the treatment is not "hypnotic". I
Christine
"kjelleman" <kjel...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1c2c0212.04071...@posting.google.com...
> "Christine" <a.h...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:<cd34b7$s64$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>...
> > "kjelleman" <kjel...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> I am now thinking that what he has (and I have had too) perhaps isn't
> a phobia proper but something else. Also from your other post how
> Saturn wasn't involved in transit. Perhaps it isn't a FEAR reaction
> (which is what phobias are actually about, I even think the very word
> means that).
>
> As I think about when this has happened to me the only fear I can
> recall is the fear it might happen, but not any fear in the actual
> situation. In the actual situation it's much more physical than
> related to what thoughts and feelings I might have about the situation
> and what I see.
>
>
E.W. cited the meaning of phobia in his post and my dictionary adds the word
'intense' to 'an irrational fear of a situation,organism or object.' This
doesn't really describe what I believe he has so, like you, I am also
querying whether phobia is the right word to use. It's a mechanism he uses
to block out a memory of physical pain (Saturn?). I looked up the word
'squeamish' but that denotes physical sickness or nausea and it isn't that
either. Maybe it *is* a trauma of some kind, indicative of Pluto, rather
than phobia. I'm not into the pure psychiatric or psychological jargon but I
don't think it fits into the category of delusion mentioned by Martin. It's
based upon a reality and it's not as if he won't pick up anything sharp out
of an irrational fear that it will produce a physical injury.
[..]
> >
> > The most interesting thing is that none of the planets mentioned rule
his
> > 6th house of health with Aquarius on the cusp, unless one uses the trad.
> > ruler, Saturn, as an indicator.
>
> Perhaps this thing, phobia or not, doesn't really affect his health
> status or work situation? It didn't affect mine and I have a Sag sixth
> house, not really heavily involved with those we are guessing would be
> the major players here (Pluto, Mars, Neptune, Mercury et al).
>
A good point, and true.
Like everyone he does carry some emotional baggage around that he might do
better to dispose of :-)
I appreciate your comments, Kjell.
[..]
Regards,
Christine.
Raymond
I agree. I have Neptune oppose/contraparallel Saturn. My
Mercury,Venus,and Neptune contraparallel my Saturn. I do have phobias
related to speech and hand/eye coordination that seems like social
anxiety disorder. I hate public speaking and doing things with my
hands in front of people. I enjoy dancing in front of a lot of people
though.
I have Moon in Pisce in 6th squares Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd
oppose retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th for a t-square, and I do
have phobias related to mental health professionals....well..mainly
psychiatrists. I have fears of higher education. Also it can indicate
my fears involving speech and hand/eye coordination. I have fear of
getting hurt because of my feelings are ultrasensitive to begin with.
I worry about my mom's health problems(Hepatitis B/C and Diabetes). I
am very shy with women. I feel intimidated by people who are more
educated. Fear has been my main problem since my special ed days. I
also have Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 17 minutes of arc.
I have Saturn oppose Jupiter/Neptune midpoint%(5 minutes of
arc),Mars/Ascendant Midpoint(27 minutes),and Pluto/Node midpoint(33).
I feel that multiple midpoint picture has to do with my developmental
problems including motor coordination. I believe that midpoints show a
lot, and I use them extensively in readings now.
I did have past history of Dyslexia and Dyspraxia that got corrected
in 3 yrs(1st,2nd[twice] grades) of special ed. Being in special
ed,having speech/coordination problems, and being called "retard" by
normal kids made me grow up feeling stupid even though I have above
average intelligence. Being called stupid when I was in the navy for
being absentminded,disorganized,clumsy,forgetful,and problems with
auditory processing led to my having low self esteem. Being seen as
crazy by psychiatrists for those same problems and my
anxiety(especially psychiatry-phobia) even lowered my self esteem. I
thought I was stupid for being in "retard" class and having speech
problems until I learned about Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,and AD/HD last year.
Feelings of intellectual inadequacy let to my feelings of shyness
which led to my feelings of anxiety which led to my feelings of
depression.
Just 2 months ago, I am finally diagnosed with ADHD,inattentive
type(means..I have attention deficit....not hyperactivity) at the age
of 32 yrs old. I have been diagnosed with Generalized
Anxiety,Dysthymic Disorder,Avoidant Personality Disorder, and per
history:Developmental Coordination Disorder.
Now I am in Massage Therapy class, and I am averaging a B after 3
modules.
Raymond
Martin Lewicki <m...@4325.696.56> wrote in message news:<Xns9526BB273...@203.2.194.51>...
Christine
"H" <nos...@nospammhotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:uFGJc.4102$mL5...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> X-No-Archive: yes> news:cd71jp$mqc$1...@reader10.wxs.nl...
> >
> >
> > 10th house Moon in Cancer is 165*20' to 4th house Sun in Sagittarius.
> There
> > have been a few posts at times as to whether 165* is an aspect and what
> it's
> > meaning would be. It seems to crop up quite often in charts.
>
> you should read Noel Tyl's work. Ironically he contends it's an aspect of
> obsession.
You mean apart from his 8th house Mercury - Pluto opposition and quincunx to
3rd house Moon, a 4th house
Neptune-Saturn opposition, and a 5th house BML in Scorpio-Uranus opposition:
LOL !!
His Mercury is in Capricorn, as is my husband's. Maybe there's a tie in with
such a Mercury placement and a Pluto combination.
Maybe an obsession would be the simplest manner to describe what my husband
has, although I have always thought that could be applied to his 3rd house
Venus in Scorpio... not being able to pass a music store without buying a
record, tape cassette or CD :-)
> I swear to God all he does is talk about that aspect. But then
> he's an obsessive thinker himself, so. . LOL it only stands to reason, a
> mentally obsessed person would be obsessed with an aspect of obsession.
> ;-)
My programme gives him an Ascendant 2 mins. of a degree into Cancer. Perhaps
it should be end Gemini still.
Best regards,
Christine.
>
> H
>
>
Christine
> >
> > "H" <nos...@nospammhotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> > news:uFGJc.4102$mL5...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> then
> > > you should read Noel Tyl's work. Ironically he contends it's an
> aspect of
> > > obsession.
> >
> > You mean apart from his 8th house Mercury - Pluto opposition and
> quincunx to
> > 3rd house Moon, a 4th house
> > Neptune-Saturn opposition, and a 5th house BML in Scorpio-Uranus
> opposition:
> > LOL !!
>
You've got to admit that that BML placing is kind of cute:-)
>
> > My programme gives him an Ascendant 2 mins. of a degree into Cancer.
> Perhaps
> > it should be end Gemini still.
>
> No, he is defintitely the Cancer ASC. Dare I say I don't think he'd be
> giving out incorrect data in his own online forum, and I wouldn't expect
> someone like him to not know if his own chart is valid. ;-)
>
Vanity, or own self image, especially with the quincunx between the two
rulers juggling for supremacy? It really is a case of which comes first, the
thought or the emotion. :-)
Such a small difference can be in seconds of a minute of time of birth in
his case, yet give a gigantic slant to the personality, even if not
intentional.
How I HATE these on the line between signs birth times but I'll accept his
and your word for its accuracy:-)
Incidentally, his chart is one of the few I have seen with every house
(except 1st) occupied. One of my teachers used to call such 'a pepper and
salt chart', adding flavour to every aspect of life :-)
Regards,
Christine.
>
>
>
> H
>
>
Rose
I've gotten a little lost in all the theory about phobias and
psychology. But I have a somewhat similar problem to your husband's.
I don't pass out, but I get this really SQUEAMISH feeling, actually
worse, it's like grossed out and I can't look at blood being drawn or
think about veins & blood traveling around in them. Ick, ick.
Bruises make me shudder if I think about them. So I don't think about
them. I can't imagine anything less entertaining than watching
surgery on TV (as it is shown here in the US).
Anyway, I don't really know why I have this. Certainly there was a
lot of trauma in my childhood, but I don't recall anything
specifically with blood or surgery. But the whole topic gives me the
creeps! Curiously, I've always felt it my civic duty to donate blood
as often as possible, despite the horror of it. In early March 1989, I
gave blood and thought, "I just can't do this anymore." The next
week, I left to work overseas. By the time I returned in Nov, I'd
contracted hepetitis and am now permenantly deferred from ever giving
blood again! What is really ridiculous is that I still feel it's my
duty to give blood and it kind of bothers me that I can't! The ads of
a downtrodden father pleading for blood for his little ... uh oh..
this is eh, starting to get me on some sub-surface level here... girl
still get to me
WRITTEN BEFORE ABOVE
Incidentally, one of the reasons it's so terrible is I have low blood
pressure and heart rate, so it took FOREVER for me to give blood.
So, you have my chart so I imagine we can find all the themes in
here...
Mars Rx in Virgo 11 w/Aries on 6. Moon-Pluto-Merc yod. Sat in 4.
Merc nearly in 4. Mars almost conj Pluto & Pluto opposite Saturn.
The duty part is in there somehow. Saturn is 165 from Mars/Pluto MP.
So what's that? Maybe that's why I hold onto
Uh. I think I'm gonna go. Sat in Pisces.
You can think about the chart if you want. Hope it helps.
Rose
Christine
"Rose" <rose...@mindspring.com> schreef in bericht
news:629b84e4.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Hi Christine,
> I've gotten a little lost in all the theory about phobias and
> psychology.
Hi Rose,
Blame it on my Mercury to Pluto square and the influence of an analytical
and nit-picking Virgo Ascendant with a to the depths driven Scorpio 3rd
house
thought process :-D
Oh yes, and Pluto in 11th house sextiles Uranus (ruler 6th house) in Gemini.
But I have a somewhat similar problem to your husband's.
> I don't pass out, but I get this really SQUEAMISH feeling,
Exactly the word I used in a post to Kjell.
actually
> worse, it's like grossed out and I can't look at blood being drawn or
> think about veins & blood traveling around in them. Ick, ick.
> Bruises make me shudder if I think about them. So I don't think about
> them. I can't imagine anything less entertaining than watching
> surgery on TV (as it is shown here in the US).
>
Sounds a lot like my hubby. He pales and walks out of the room when anyone
talks of their illnesses, diagnoses or operations. He says he 'sees it all
before my eyes'.
> Anyway, I don't really know why I have this. Certainly there was a
> lot of trauma in my childhood, but I don't recall anything
> specifically with blood or surgery. But the whole topic gives me the
> creeps!
Sorry, Rose; it isn't meant to. I am just interested in the complexes
regarding this sort of thing because I believe many physical indispositions
are a result of
psychological factors and the horoscope chart offers a way to seek answers.
> Curiously, I've always felt it my civic duty to donate blood
> as often as possible, despite the horror of it. In early March 1989, I
> gave blood and thought, "I just can't do this anymore." The next
> week, I left to work overseas. By the time I returned in Nov, I'd
> contracted hepetitis and am now permenantly deferred from ever giving
> blood again! What is really ridiculous is that I still feel it's my
> duty to give blood and it kind of bothers me that I can't! The ads of
> a downtrodden father pleading for blood for his little ... uh oh..
> this is eh, starting to get me on some sub-surface level here... girl
> still get to me
Just memories wanting to surface, Rose.
Professional counselling can be so helpful and you might find that an
objective male person offers you just that.
>
>
>
> WRITTEN BEFORE ABOVE
> Incidentally, one of the reasons it's so terrible is I have low blood
> pressure and heart rate, so it took FOREVER for me to give blood.
>
> So, you have my chart so I imagine we can find all the themes in
> here...
> Mars Rx in Virgo 11 w/Aries on 6. Moon-Pluto-Merc yod. Sat in 4.
> Merc nearly in 4. Mars almost conj Pluto & Pluto opposite Saturn.
> The duty part is in there somehow. Saturn is 165 from Mars/Pluto MP.
> So what's that? Maybe that's why I hold onto
>
> Uh. I think I'm gonna go. Sat in Pisces.
>
Hopefully the day will come when there is an alternative. :-)
> You can think about the chart if you want. Hope it helps.
> Rose
You have similar planetary involvement to my husband and Kjell, although the
aspects between them may differ. I wonder if the fact that Kjell's Mercury
was not involved with either Mars or Pluto and trine to Saturn enabled him
to outgrow the effect.
Thanks for sharing, Rose.
Best regards,
Christine.