The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak
Sean Smiley
Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
mean yesterday. And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
just after the message which Henslee & Redlich omitted. But he too
omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
radio message.
It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
becomes clearer here why Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi would
want to downplay, if not altogether deep six, the 1:21 transmission.
Because if a suspect was just passing the Texaco station about 1:18--
about the time which a 1:21pm police-radio "just passed" transmission
would reflect--then that suspect was *not* the shooter, not some six
minutes after the shooting.
And "six minutes" seems about right. Witness T.F. Bowley stated, in
his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16 (WM
pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there, & I didn't
want to get out & rush right up. He might start shooting
again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
fracas. "That is when I got out of the truck & walked over to the
policeman.... Anyway, I went in & pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi did not want to deal with the
issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
about six minutes later, & a block away--had to have been--as Henslee
& co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
subject then & there calls into question the testimony and
observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
Working backwards:
Mary Brock
Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
long before witnesses Warren Reynolds & Pat Patterson arrived &
apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
Warren Reynolds
Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
service station & lost him" (v11p436). The gunman passing Texaco
could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later & only a block
away
Pat Patterson
Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
L.J. Lewis
Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
Virginia Davis
Again & again, in her WC testimony, insisted that "it was before [she
& her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
vindicates, in retrospect, her odd insistence: She & Barbara Jeanette
Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
William W. Scoggins
The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
report, above.
Mrs. Helen Markham
Might have been the source for another part of Croy's report, which
actually seems to have been a confusion of at least two witness
reports. In attorney Mark Lane's unsourced claim, she described the
suspect as "short" and "stocky", which is a description, also, of
Scoggins (WM p227). If she was a source--if, that is, she had seen
Scoggins running from the scene with Tippit's gun--that would explain
TV cameraman Ron Reiland's narration of his footage of Sgt. C.B.
Owens, later, holding the gun: "This gun you see... is the one that
was allegedly used to shoot the police officer" (WM p299). Alleged,
wrongly, by Mrs. Markham, perhaps, perhaps the source for the Croy's
other *fragment* of a witness report: "They don't know whether [the
cab driver] was the one that had shot Tippit...." "They"....
Ted Callaway
Enlisted in an absurdly belated quest with Scoggins, in his cab, to
track down the killer. Unfortunately for the credibility of this
story, Callaway was on the police radio at 1:20, & thus this cold-
pursuit story could not begin in earnest until after he got off the
radio, some 8 minutes after the shooting. Benavides was the most
hapless victim of this (quite successful, as it happened) attempt to
cover up Scoggins' apparent recalcitrance re identifying the wrong
person (i.e., Oswald) as the killer: Benavides had his boss,
Callaway, "reaching down & getting the gun out of the policeman's
hand", *after* Callaway's radio call, which actually, in turn, was
placed *after* the ambulance had taken away Tippit's body (v6p452/WM
p384)! Inevitably, the greater absurdity of the cab trackdown issued
in such lesser absurdities.... The 1:21 transmission is the final nail
in the coffin of the Scoggins/Callaway Great Auto Chase....
In sum: The 1:21 "just passed" casts doubt on four lineup-ID
witnesses--Davis, Davis, Scoggins, and Markham--including one--
Scoggins--who even, at one point, dared to express doubt that Oswald
was the shooter. Was Scoggins the one who "just passed 401 E.
Jefferson", about 1:18? No wonder Henslee (suppress), Redlich (omit),
Myers (downplay), & Bugliosi (ignore) were nervous at 1:21....
dcw
bigdog
> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>
> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
> mean yesterday.
I really don't think the police report was about a suspect who was seen
the day before the murder was committed. Does this get any better or is
this the best you've got?
> And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
> just after the message which Henslee & Redlich omitted. But he too
> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
> radio message.
>
Amazing what you consider "radioactive".
> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
> becomes clearer here why Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi would
> want to downplay, if not altogether deep six, the 1:21 transmission.
> Because if a suspect was just passing the Texaco station about 1:18--
> about the time which a 1:21pm police-radio "just passed" transmission
> would reflect--then that suspect was *not* the shooter, not some six
> minutes after the shooting.
>
I'd like to see the arithmetic for this amazing calculation.
> And "six minutes" seems about right. Witness T.F. Bowley stated, in
> his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
> Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
> have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
> began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16 (WM
> pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
> street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
> on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
> the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
> kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
> the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there, & I didn't
> want to get out & rush right up. He might start shooting
> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
> fracas. "That is when I got out of the truck & walked over to the
> policeman.... Anyway, I went in & pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>
Wonderful. You have provided us with a reasonable ESTIMATE of the time
of the shooting.
> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
> Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi did not want to deal with the
> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
> about six minutes later, & a block away--had to have been--as Henslee
> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
> subject then & there calls into question the testimony and
> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>
I can't wait to see where this is going.
> Working backwards:
> Mary Brock
> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>
HUH???!!!
> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds & Pat Patterson arrived &
> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>
Five minutes??? Do you think he started a stopwatch when he saw the
"young white man"? Or do you think he was just guessing at the
elapsed time?
> Warren Reynolds
> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
> service station & lost him" (v11p436). The gunman passing Texaco
> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later & only a block
> away
>
If only you had definitive information as to the exact time.
> Pat Patterson
> Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
> with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>
> L.J. Lewis
> Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
> hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
> heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
> now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
> shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>
You think there were two guys toting guns in that neighborhood at the
same time. I knew this would be fascinating.
> Virginia Davis
> Again & again, in her WC testimony, insisted that "it was before [she
> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
> vindicates, in retrospect, her odd insistence: She & Barbara Jeanette
> Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
> Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
>
Key word: ABOUT!!!
> William W. Scoggins
> The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
> chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
> might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
> Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
> some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
> and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
> person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
> with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
> Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
> individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
> before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
> arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
> report, above.
>
There it is again. ABOUT!!!
> Mrs. Helen Markham
> Might have been the source for another part of Croy's report, which
> actually seems to have been a confusion of at least two witness
> reports. In attorney Mark Lane's unsourced claim, she described the
> suspect as "short" and "stocky", which is a description, also, of
> Scoggins (WM p227). If she was a source--if, that is, she had seen
> Scoggins running from the scene with Tippit's gun--that would explain
> TV cameraman Ron Reiland's narration of his footage of Sgt. C.B.
> Owens, later, holding the gun: "This gun you see... is the one that
> was allegedly used to shoot the police officer" (WM p299). Alleged,
> wrongly, by Mrs. Markham, perhaps, perhaps the source for the Croy's
> other *fragment* of a witness report: "They don't know whether [the
> cab driver] was the one that had shot Tippit...." "They"....
>
Now to ABOUT, we can add the word IF!!! Sounds like you've really got
this nailed down.
> Ted Callaway
> Enlisted in an absurdly belated quest with Scoggins, in his cab, to
> track down the killer. Unfortunately for the credibility of this
> story, Callaway was on the police radio at 1:20, & thus this cold-
> pursuit story could not begin in earnest until after he got off the
> radio, some 8 minutes after the shooting.
8 minutes? Or do you mean ABOUT 8 minutes? Without ways of verifying
precise times, ABOUT is the best you can do.
> Benavides was the most
> hapless victim of this (quite successful, as it happened) attempt to
> cover up Scoggins' apparent recalcitrance re identifying the wrong
> person (i.e., Oswald) as the killer: Benavides had his boss,
> Callaway, "reaching down & getting the gun out of the policeman's
> hand", *after* Callaway's radio call, which actually, in turn, was
> placed *after* the ambulance had taken away Tippit's body (v6p452/WM
> p384)! Inevitably, the greater absurdity of the cab trackdown issued
> in such lesser absurdities.... The 1:21 transmission is the final nail
> in the coffin of the Scoggins/Callaway Great Auto Chase....
>
> In sum: The 1:21 "just passed" casts doubt on four lineup-ID
> witnesses--Davis, Davis, Scoggins, and Markham--including one--
> Scoggins--who even, at one point, dared to express doubt that Oswald
> was the shooter. Was Scoggins the one who "just passed 401 E.
> Jefferson", about 1:18? No wonder Henslee (suppress), Redlich (omit),
> Myers (downplay), & Bugliosi (ignore) were nervous at 1:21....
>
> dcw
It is comical that after 47 years, this is the best the CTs can come up
with. A litany of time estimates, none of which nails down the precise
time Oswald shot Tippit nor precludes Oswald from being the shooter. CTs
love to play these games with the clock in their futile attempts to
exhonorate Oswald of both of the murders which the solid evidence clearly
indicates he committed. They do that with his movements in the TSBD
following the assassination and they do that with the Tippit murder.
Here's the bottom line. Nobody was running a stopwatch on Oswald on
11/22/63. Nobody knows precisely how long it took him to get from point A
to point B, to point C, to point D...etc. We can only estimate these times
based on sketchy data. What CTs invariably resort to is to take these
estimates and give Oswald the least amount of time possible to get from
one place to another in a vain attempt to show that he couldn't have been
at the scene of the crime at the time those crimes were committed. Here's
the problem for them. The physical evidence puts him at the scene of both
murders. Never mind the witnesses who identified him at the scene of the
Tippit murder or fleeing the scene. We have his jacket which was discarded
by the shooter near the scene of the crime. Most damning of course is his
possesion of the murder weapon about a half hour after Tippit was gunned
down and his possesion of the same two makes of bullets in his possession
that were used to kill Tippit. This stomps all over any silly attempts to
manipulate the clock to claim Oswald couldn't have been at the scene of
the Tippit murder.
curtjester1
- Show quoted text -
> dcw
Don, there are many inconsistencies and suggestions in the timelines by
varying scenarial reasons.
I would suggest in your amassing's here, that Bowley would tend to be spot
on time-wise since he picked both his daughter and wife up on the same
trip, starting at 12:55 with his daughter at the Thorton Elementary school
and finishing with his wife only a few blocks from the Tippit murder
scene. I google mapped the school to the address of the shooting, and it
was 1:11 the slow way, if he took Marsalis, and faster if he took the
freeway...
The transcripts of DPD are always under scrutiny for these going's- on,
and the original before the FBI got in the way was a 1:10 transmission.
You can about this in the Probe article towards the end under
Transcripts... Michael Griffith's commentary on With Malice is always an
interesting read as well.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/Griffith/With_Malice.html (Mike
Griffith)
http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html (Probe 1998)
CJ
Sean Smiley
Answered this at alt.conspiracy.jfk
dcw
Sean Smiley
> On Nov 5, 11:28 am, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
> > Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>
> > In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
> > dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
> > The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
> > innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
> > story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
> > Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
> > mean yesterday.
>
> I really don't think the police report was about a suspect who was seen
> the day before the murder was committed. Does this get any better or is
> this the best you've got?
I guess I take a chance with literal minds when I use irony or
exaggeration to make a point....
See below
>
> > And "six minutes" seems about right. Witness T.F. Bowley stated, in
> > his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
> > Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
> > have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
> > began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16 (WM
> > pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
> > street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
> > on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
> > the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
> > kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
> > the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there, & I didn't
> > want to get out & rush right up. He might start shooting
> > again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
> > insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
> > fracas. "That is when I got out of the truck & walked over to the
> > policeman.... Anyway, I went in & pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
> > Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
> > three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
> > radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
> > roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>
> Wonderful. You have provided us with a reasonable ESTIMATE of the time
> of the shooting.
Thank you, I guess
> > It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
> > Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi did not want to deal with the
> > issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
> > about six minutes later, & a block away--had to have been--as Henslee
> > & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
> > wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
> > subject then & there calls into question the testimony and
> > observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>
> I can't wait to see where this is going.
>
> > Working backwards:
> > Mary Brock
> > Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
> > would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>
> HUH???!!!
Well, it was either not the shooter she saw, not six minutes after the
shooting, & still only a block away... or it was the shooter, who had
been badly wounded, & was limping, or crawling, down Jefferson, very,
very slowly....
dcw
>
> > Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
> > The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
> > he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
> > long before witnesses Warren Reynolds & Pat Patterson arrived &
> > apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>
> Five minutes??? Do you think he started a stopwatch when he saw the
> "young white man"? Or do you think he was just guessing at the
> elapsed time?
Doesn't matter. I hardly think the dispatcher would translate "five
minutes" into "just passed"....
> > Warren Reynolds
> > Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
> > service station & lost him" (v11p436). The gunman passing Texaco
> > could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later & only a block
> > away
>
> If only you had definitive information as to the exact time.
Actually, before we go on... Give this LNer a cigar! Bigdog is, I
believe, the very first LNer to even address the 1:21 "just passed"
transmission. He's certainly braver than Henslee, Redlich, Myers &
Bugliosi, who ran off in 4 different directions.... I guess *they*
thought the transmission was pretty definitive!
dcw
> > Pat Patterson
> > Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
> > with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>
> > L.J. Lewis
> > Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
> > hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
> > heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
> > now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
> > shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>
> You think there were two guys toting guns in that neighborhood at the
> same time.
Even if you don't buy my humble construct (and I gather you don't),
(a) it wasn't at the "same time"--that's the point--it was (for the
shooter) about 1:12 to 1:15, and for the citizen trailing the shooter,
about 1:15 to 1:18; and (b) even for the version which you *do*
accept--Myers's et al--there were "two guys toting guns": the shooter
& the used car salesman, who supposedly picked up Tippit's gun. *You*
think there were 2 guys...
dcw
.
Myers had his own "about"s & estimations--his was 1:14-1/2 for the
shooting. But he took what Benavides said 4 years later ("2
seconds"); I took what he said in 1964 ("2 minutes"), for the time he
waited in his truck for the shooter to clear out. Do you really
believe that "2 seconds"?!?
dcw
>
> > Ted Callaway
> > Enlisted in an absurdly belated quest with Scoggins, in his cab, to
> > track down the killer. Unfortunately for the credibility of this
> > story, Callaway was on the police radio at 1:20, & thus this cold-
> > pursuit story could not begin in earnest until after he got off the
> > radio, some 8 minutes after the shooting.
>
> 8 minutes? Or do you mean ABOUT 8 minutes? Without ways of verifying
> precise times, ABOUT is the best you can do.
>
1:20 is exact. At the latest--1:14-1/2, for the shooting, in Myers'
estimation--it's still 5-1/2 minutes after the shooting. It's still a
frosty pursuit....
>
> > Benavides was the most
> > hapless victim of this (quite successful, as it happened) attempt to
> > cover up Scoggins' apparent recalcitrance re identifying the wrong
> > person (i.e., Oswald) as the killer: Benavides had his boss,
> > Callaway, "reaching down & getting the gun out of the policeman's
> > hand", *after* Callaway's radio call, which actually, in turn, was
> > placed *after* the ambulance had taken away Tippit's body (v6p452/WM
> > p384)! Inevitably, the greater absurdity of the cab trackdown issued
> > in such lesser absurdities.... The 1:21 transmission is the final nail
> > in the coffin of the Scoggins/Callaway Great Auto Chase....
>
> > In sum: The 1:21 "just passed" casts doubt on four lineup-ID
> > witnesses--Davis, Davis, Scoggins, and Markham--including one--
> > Scoggins--who even, at one point, dared to express doubt that Oswald
> > was the shooter. Was Scoggins the one who "just passed 401 E.
> > Jefferson", about 1:18? No wonder Henslee (suppress), Redlich (omit),
> > Myers (downplay), & Bugliosi (ignore) were nervous at 1:21....
>
> > dcw
>
> It is comical that after 47 years, this is the best the CTs can come up ...
>
And, on the subject of the 1:21 radio message, what (after some 47
years) have the best LN minds--Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi--come up
with? Absolutely nothing!
dcw
> read more »
curtjester1
> On Nov 6, 6:00 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 6, 12:21 am, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 5, 1:19 am, Sean Smiley <dcwill...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
> > > > > Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>
> > > > > In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
> > > > > dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
> > > > > The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
> > > > > innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
> > > > > story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
> > > > > Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
> > > > > more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
> > > > > to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
> > > > > minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
> > > > > in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
> > > > > just after the message which Henslee & Redlich omitted. But he too
> > > > > omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
> > > > > too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
> > > > > ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
> > > > > the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
> > > > > Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
> > > > > pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
> > > > > radio message.
>
> > > > > 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
> > > > > Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
> > > > > station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
> > > > > transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
> > > > > becomes clearer here why Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi would
> > > > > want to downplay, if not altogether deep six, the 1:21 transmission.
> > > > > Because if a suspect was just passing the Texaco station about 1:18--
> > > > > about the time which a 1:21pm police-radio "just passed" transmission
> > > > > would reflect--then that suspect was *not* the shooter, not some six
> > > > > minutes after the shooting.
>
> > > > > his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
> > > > > Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
> > > > > have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
> > > > > began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16
>
>
> > > > Dom Benavides was trying to contact the police dispatcher by using the
> > > > radio in Tippit's car WHEN TF Bowley arrived at 1:10 pm. Benavides
> > > > told Bowley that he wasn't sure that he had got the message through
> > > > to the police dispatcher, so TF Bowley took the mike and contacted the
> > > > dispatcher.
>
> > > > I'm really surprised that you would fall for the altered chronology.
> > > > I'd hope that you would study the three uses of Tippit's radio, by
> > > > Benavides @ 1:08, by TF Bowley @ 1:12, by Ted Callaway at about
> > > > 1:20..... Please study the three uses of Tippit's police radio, and
> > > > pay attention to the address give by each user.
>
> > > In a way, it doesn't matter which chronology you're using--the
> > > shooting took place *at least* (in my chronology) 9 minutes before the
> > > 1:21 message re a suspect who "just passed" the Texaco station! In
> > > other words, this suspect could not have been the shooter. He was
> > > another gunman, so late that he had to have been some citizen
> > > *chasing* the shooter. And that demolishes the standard version of
> > > Tippit's killing. Several of the supposed eyewitnesses to Oswald
> > > could not have been--they didn't see the shooter at all--e.g., Mrs
> > > Brock, Virginia Davis, LJ Lewis....
>
> > > That said, *Bowley* does not say "Hello, police operator," until after
> > > the dispatcher has said "1:16". So I doubt that Benavides was trying
> > > to use the mike for 8 minutes before that....
> > > dcw
>
> > Don that time of "1:16" you're referring to is a lie..... Bowley
> > knew what time he picked up his daughter at school, and he knew what
> > time he had to pick up his wifeat the phone company. He was on a tight
> > schedule and that's the reason he looked at his watch when he got out
> > of his car at the scene of Tippit's murder. He looked at his watch to
> > see if he was going to be late in picking up his wife. Read his
> > afidavit .... He was in a hurry to leave the scene before talking to
> > the police but he knew his wifle was waiting and worrying about where
> > he and their daughter weer. He wrote in his affidavit..."The officer
> > said I could leave"
>
> > TF Bowley used Tippit's car radio at about 1:12... and Benavides used
> > it a fwe minutes before Bowley did. I havent studied this aspect of
> > the tale in quit some time, so I'm running on memory here....But I'm
> > sure that you can identify each caller by the address the caller give
> > to the dispatcher (Henslee?) Benavides was very familiar with the
> > area and didn't have to ask anybody what the address was,,,However TF
> > Bowley was not familiar with the area so he had to ask bystanders what
> > the address was.
>
> > Bowley did NOT use the radio after 1:16..... He used it immediately
> > after he got out of his car at 1:10.
>
> > > > (WM
>
> > > > > pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
> > > > > street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
> > > > > on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
> > > > > the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
> > > > > kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
> > > > > the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there, & I didn't
> > > > > want to get out & rush right up. He might start shooting
> > > > > again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
> > > > > insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
> > > > > fracas. "That is when I got out of the truck & walked over to the
> > > > > policeman.... Anyway, I went in & pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
> > > > > Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
> > > > > three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
> > > > > radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
> > > > > roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>
> > > > > Henslee, Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi did not want to deal with the
> > > > > issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
> > > > > about six minutes later, & a block away--had to have been--as Henslee
> > > > > & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
> > > > > wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
> > > > > subject then & there calls into question the testimony and
> > > > > observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>
> > > > > Mary Brock
> > > > > Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
> > > > > would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>
> > > > > The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
> > > > > he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
> > > > > long before witnesses Warren Reynolds & Pat Patterson arrived &
> > > > > apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>
> > > > > Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
> > > > > service station & lost him" (v11p436). The gunman passing Texaco
> > > > > could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later & only a block
> > > > > away
>
> > > > > Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
> > > > > with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>
> > > > > L.J. Lewis
> > > > > Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
> > > > > hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
> > > > > heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
> > > > > now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
> > > > > shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>
> > > > > Again & again, in her WC testimony, insisted that "it was before [she
> > > > > & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
> > > > > called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
> > > > > vindicates, in retrospect, her odd insistence: She & Barbara Jeanette
> > > > > Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
> > > > > Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
>
> > > > > The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
> > > > > chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
> > > > > might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
> > > > > Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
> > > > > some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
> > > > > and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
> > > > > person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
> > > > > with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
> > > > > Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
> > > > > individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
> > > > > before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
> > > > > arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
> > > > > report, above.
>
>
> > ...
>
> > read more »
>
> Again, the main point to be made is that there were several minutes--
> at least 6--between the time of the shooting & the time that a suspect
> passed the Texaco station. No CTer wants to acknowledge this--
> beginning with Henslee, then Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi. Because to
> discuss the subject would be to admit that supposed witnesses to
> Oswald could not have been same--the Texaco suspect was not the
> shooter, unless as I noted elsewhere, he had been wounded & was
> limping very slowly down Jefferson....
> dcw
I don't think we have a way of corroborating just when he got on the
horn to make this suspect announcement. If they lied about some to
the timelines, and even the officers of why or when they went to
Oakcliff, they why wouldn't they lie about that?
Another thing they were evasive about is the call-in's by others who
called in right away as the suspect crossed their paths. They called
DPD, and they would have had clerks answering, and official notes and
times to be passed down a conveyor belt. That is 'somehow' missing.
The fact remains, the original DPD transcripts have a 1:10 call in and
it was easy for the FBI to make a 9 out of the 0, later. (It's not
easy to make a 0 from a 9, though).
There is also controversy from Benavides and his earlier "a few
minutes" and a latter quicker rightaway movement ...but again it
doesn't really matter, it's etched in stone that Tippit died much
earlier than the authorities want us to believe.
What passed between then and a 1:45 arrival at the Texas Theater for
the suspect is still quite controversial.
CJ
bigdog
The bottom line to all this is that you are trying to do precise
calculations for a time line with imprecise data, i.e. ESTIMATES for the
times of certain events. That just doesn't work. To do precise
calculations, you need precise data, and that just isn't available. Nobody
was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63. Nobody was logging exact times of any
of the key events. We know JFK was shot at 12:30, assuming the big Hertz
clock on the top of the TSBD was accurate. After that, everything is an
estimate. We just don't have precise data. Whether Oswald left his rooming
house at 1:00 and shot Tippit at or about 1:15 or he left his rooming
house at 12:55 and shot Tippit at or about 1:10 is something we will never
know with any certainty. It takes about 12-13 minutes to walk from the
rooming house to 10th and Patton (I've done it myself). So Oswald is
stopped by Tippit and after a short conversation, Tippit gets out of his
patrol car and Oswald pulls his gun and shoots him dead. We know about
when this happened but we will probably never know exactly when this
happened. We do know that Oswald left his rooming house ABOUT 1:00 wearing
a light colored jacket. Tippit's killer was seen wearing such a jacket and
ditched that jacket under a car a short distance away. That jacket was
later retrieved and identified by Marina as belonging to her husband.
Oswald was not wearing his jacket when arrested. He was in possesion of
the only gun in the world that could have fired the spent shells that
Tippit's killer was seen discarding as he fled the scene. He was also in
possession of the same two types of bullets used in the Tippit murder. Add
to that the witnesses that IDed Oswald as either the shooter or the man
seen fleeing the seen. Do we really need Sherlock Holmes to tell us what
this all means?
Sean Smiley
Why would they lie to make it seem as if a suspect who couldn't have
been a shooter was just passing Texaco about 1:18?
dcw
Sean Smiley
Tell that to Myers....
To do precise
> calculations, you need precise data, and that just isn't available. Nobody
> was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63. Nobody was logging exact times of any
> of the key events. We know JFK was shot at 12:30, assuming the big Hertz
> clock on the top of the TSBD was accurate. After that, everything is an
> estimate.
No. Someone tried to get thru on Tippit's radio at 1:16. At 1:21,
the dispatcher reported that some suspicious person had "just passed"
the Texaco station. You don't need a stopwatch, or a universal clock,
to tell you that this person was not the shooter, whether the shooting
was at 1:12 (my estimate) or 1:14-1/2 (Myers')....
dcw
We just don't have precise data. Whether Oswald left his rooming
> house at 1:00 and shot Tippit at or about 1:15 or he left his rooming
> house at 12:55 and shot Tippit at or about 1:10 is something we will never
> know with any certainty. It takes about 12-13 minutes to walk from the
> rooming house to 10th and Patton (I've done it myself). So Oswald is
> stopped by Tippit and after a short conversation, Tippit gets out of his
> patrol car and Oswald pulls his gun and shoots him dead. We know about
> when this happened but we will probably never know exactly when this
> happened. We do know that Oswald left his rooming house ABOUT 1:00 wearing
> a light colored jacket. Tippit's killer was seen wearing such a jacket and
> ditched that jacket under a car a short distance away. That jacket was
> later retrieved and identified by Marina as belonging to her husband.
> Oswald was not wearing his jacket when arrested. He was in possesion of
> the only gun in the world that could have fired the spent shells that
> Tippit's killer was seen discarding as he fled the scene. He was also in
> possession of the same two types of bullets used in the Tippit murder. Add
> to that the witnesses that IDed Oswald as either the shooter or the man
> seen fleeing the seen. Do we really need Sherlock Holmes to tell us what
> this all means?
Not if you believe in the absolute uprightness of the DPD. Like, say,
a certain Sgt Hill who testified that he didn't send the "automatic"
transmission. (He later admitted that he did.) Or a certain Sgt
Henslee, who omitted the 1:21pm "just passed" transmission in his
transcription. (It was not indecipherable.) Or a certain Officer
Haygood, who said that he sent the 12:37 "second window"
transmission. (Listen to the tapes--it was officer 22, Patrolman
Hill.) Yes, sure, let's buy what the DPD says about hulls & bullets
handled behind the scenes.... And the 1:21 transmission discredits at
least Mrs. Brock, who ID'd Oswald as the shooter, when as I noted
above, she could only have seen someone tracking the shooter; also
casts doubt on Virginia Davis's ID, as she saw her suspect after she
called the cops; also reinforces Sgt Croy's report re the cab driver
picking up Tippit's gun & giving chase--and Scoggins both delayed his
ID till Saturday (when he testified he was with the cops on Friday) &
later told the FBI he was far from sure (based on a photo) that Oswald
actually was the one he saw!
dcw
PS Henslee, Redlich, Myers & Bugliosi avoided the 1:21 transmission
like the plague; now we see why
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 6, 2:25 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 5, 5:44 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 11:28 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
>>>> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>>
>>>> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
>>>> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
>>>> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
>>>> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
>>>> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
>>>> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
>>>> mean yesterday.
>>
>>> I really don't think the police report was about a suspect who was seen
>>> the day before the murder was committed. Does this get any better or is
>>> this the best you've got?
>>
>> I guess I take a chance with literal minds when I use irony or
>> exaggeration to make a point....
>>
>>
>>
>>>> And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
>>>> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
>>>> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
>>>> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
>>>> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
>>>> radio message.
>>
>>> Amazing what you consider "radioactive".
>>
>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
>>>> want to downplay, if not altogether deep six, the 1:21 transmission.
>>>> Because if a suspect was just passing the Texaco station about 1:18--
>>>> about the time which a 1:21pm police-radio "just passed" transmission
>>>> would reflect--then that suspect was *not* the shooter, not some six
>>>> minutes after the shooting.
>>
>>> I'd like to see the arithmetic for this amazing calculation.
>>
>> See below
>>
>>>> And "six minutes" seems about right. Witness T.F. Bowley stated, in
>>>> his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
>>>> Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
>>>> have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
>>>> began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16 (WM
>>>> pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
>>>> street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
>>>> on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
>>>> the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
>>>> kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>> Wonderful. You have provided us with a reasonable ESTIMATE of the time
>>> of the shooting.
>>
>> Thank you, I guess
>>
>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>> I can't wait to see where this is going.
>>
>>>> Working backwards:
>>>> Mary Brock
>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>> HUH???!!!
>>
>> Well, it was either not the shooter she saw, not six minutes after the
>> been badly wounded,& was limping, or crawling, down Jefferson, very,
>> very slowly....
>> dcw
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived&
>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>> Five minutes??? Do you think he started a stopwatch when he saw the
>>> "young white man"? Or do you think he was just guessing at the
>>> elapsed time?
>>
>> Doesn't matter. I hardly think the dispatcher would translate "five
>> minutes" into "just passed"....
>>
>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only a block
>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>> shooting. But he took what Benavides said 4 years later ("2
>> seconds"); I took what he said in 1964 ("2 minutes"), for the time he
>> waited in his truck for the shooter to clear out. Do you really
>> believe that "2 seconds"?!?
>> dcw
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Ted Callaway
>>>> Enlisted in an absurdly belated quest with Scoggins, in his cab, to
>>>> track down the killer. Unfortunately for the credibility of this
>>>> pursuit story could not begin in earnest until after he got off the
>>>> radio, some 8 minutes after the shooting.
>>
>>> 8 minutes? Or do you mean ABOUT 8 minutes? Without ways of verifying
>>> precise times, ABOUT is the best you can do.
>>
>> 1:20 is exact. At the latest--1:14-1/2, for the shooting, in Myers'
>> estimation--it's still 5-1/2 minutes after the shooting. It's still a
>> frosty pursuit....
>>
>>>> Benavides was the most
>>>> hapless victim of this (quite successful, as it happened) attempt to
>>>> cover up Scoggins' apparent recalcitrance re identifying the wrong
>>>> person (i.e., Oswald) as the killer: Benavides had his boss,
>>>> hand", *after* Callaway's radio call, which actually, in turn, was
>>>> placed *after* the ambulance had taken away Tippit's body (v6p452/WM
>>>> p384)! Inevitably, the greater absurdity of the cab trackdown issued
>>>> in such lesser absurdities.... The 1:21 transmission is the final nail
>>>> in the coffin of the Scoggins/Callaway Great Auto Chase....
>>
>>>> In sum: The 1:21 "just passed" casts doubt on four lineup-ID
>>>> witnesses--Davis, Davis, Scoggins, and Markham--including one--
>>>> Scoggins--who even, at one point, dared to express doubt that Oswald
>>>> was the shooter. Was Scoggins the one who "just passed 401 E.
>>>> Jefferson", about 1:18? No wonder Henslee (suppress), Redlich (omit),
If we had a better reanalysis of the DPD tapes we could pinpoint the
exact moment of the shooting down to a few seconds. I also think that
Merriman Smith could not have radioed in the shooting BEFORE it happened.
Walt
As you've correctly pointed out, the chronology has been altered by
the authorities...This fact speaks volumes about the entire case.
It is a fact that they altered the chronology surrounding the murder
of officer Tippit. And since the murder of Tippit was used to convict
Oswald in the public eye, it's abundantly clear that they had no case
against Oswald... and they needed to frame him for the murder of
Tippit so they could use that as a stepping stone to frame him for the
murder of President Kennedy.
I'm not at all sure that Oswald arrived at the Texas Theater at
1:45.... I believe he was in the theater much earlier than that.
>
> CJ
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 6, 10:25 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 12:03 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 6, 6:00 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 6, 12:21 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 5, 1:19 am, Sean Smiley<dcwill...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
>>>>>>> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>>
>>>>>>> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
>>>>>>> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
>>>>>>> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
>>>>>>> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
>>>>>>> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
>>>>>>> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
>>>>>>> mean yesterday. And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
>>>>>>> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
>>>>>>> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
>>>>>>> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
>>>>>>> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
>>>>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
>>>>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
>>>>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
>>>>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
>>>>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
>>>>>>> radio message.
>>
>>>>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
>>>>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
>>>>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
>>>>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
>>>>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
>>>>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
>>>>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
>>>>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
>>>>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
>>>>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
>>>>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>>>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
>>>>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
>>>>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
>>>>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>>>>>> Working backwards:
>>>>>>> Mary Brock
>>>>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
>>>>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>>>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
>>>>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
>>>>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived&
>>>>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>>>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
>>>>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only a block
>>>>>>> away
>>
>>>>>>> Pat Patterson
>>>>>>> Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
>>>>>>> with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>>
>>>>>>> L.J. Lewis
>>>>>>> Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
>>>>>>> hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
>>>>>>> heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
>>>>>>> now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
>>>>>>> shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>>
>>>>>>> Virginia Davis
>>>>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
>>>>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>>>>>>> Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
>>>>>>> Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
>>
>>>>>>> William W. Scoggins
>>>>>>> The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
>>>>>>> chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
>>>>>>> might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
>>>>>>> Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
>>>>>>> some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
>>>>>>> and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
>>>>>>> person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
>>>>>>> with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
>>>>>>> Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
>>>>>>> individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
>>>>>>> before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
>>>>>>> arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
>>>>>>> report, above.
>>
>>>>>>> Mrs. Helen Markham
>>
>>>> ...
>>
>>>> read more »
>>
>>> Again, the main point to be made is that there were several minutes--
>>> passed the Texaco station. No CTer wants to acknowledge this--
>>> beginning with Henslee, then Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi. Because to
>>> discuss the subject would be to admit that supposed witnesses to
>>> Oswald could not have been same--the Texaco suspect was not the
I can usually tell instantly who is writing by the style of pointing out
every error the authorities made as proof of conspiracy. Why don't you
just go all the way and claim that the Dallas cops themselves killed
Tippit, or maybe that Jack Ruby did?
>
>
>
>>
>> CJ
>
>
bigdog
Once again, you try to make a case built on estimates of various
times. The 1:21 transmission may very well be a reliable documented
event, but it is in regards to an event for which there is no
defintive time. The phrase "just passed" is extremely vague and in no
way pinpoints a time for this event. You arbitrarily claim it was
referring to a suspect sighting at "about 1:18". I suppose anytime
between 1:15 and 1:20 could reasonably called "about 1:18" but you
base your argument on it being a precise time rather than an estimate.
We don't know precisely what time Tippit was shot nor do we know
precisely what time the suspect referred to in the 1:21 transmission
was actually spotted so your whole silly argument falls apart.
Sean Smiley
circa 1pm. I believe he went straight to the theatre....
dcw
> > CJ
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 6, 9:36 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 2:25 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 5:44 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 11:28 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
>>>>> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>>
>>>>> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
>>>>> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
>>>>> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
>>>>> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
>>>>> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
>>>>> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
>>>>> mean yesterday.
>>
>>>> I really don't think the police report was about a suspect who was seen
>>>> the day before the murder was committed. Does this get any better or is
>>>> this the best you've got?
>>
>>> I guess I take a chance with literal minds when I use irony or
>>> exaggeration to make a point....
>>
>>>>> And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
>>>>> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
>>>>> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
>>>>> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
>>>>> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
>>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
>>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
>>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
>>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
>>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
>>>>> radio message.
>>
>>>> Amazing what you consider "radioactive".
>>
>>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
>>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
>>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
>>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
>>>>> want to downplay, if not altogether deep six, the 1:21 transmission.
>>>>> Because if a suspect was just passing the Texaco station about 1:18--
>>>>> about the time which a 1:21pm police-radio "just passed" transmission
>>>>> would reflect--then that suspect was *not* the shooter, not some six
>>>>> minutes after the shooting.
>>
>>>> I'd like to see the arithmetic for this amazing calculation.
>>
>>> See below
>>
>>>>> And "six minutes" seems about right. Witness T.F. Bowley stated, in
>>>>> his 12/2/63 affidavit, that his watch "said 1:10pm" when he first saw
>>>>> Tippit's body lying in the street. Granted, however, his watch might
>>>>> have been a few minutes slow. Witness Domingo Benavides, meanwhile,
>>>>> began punching the police-mike button in Tippit's car at 1:16 (WM
>>>>> pp92, 383). Before this, he sat in his truck--parked across the
>>>>> street--watching the shooter as he went out of sight "past the house",
>>>>> on Patton. Give the shooter maybe half a minute here. After watching
>>>>> the shooter disappear, Benavides "set there for just a few minutes to
>>>>> kind of... I thought he went in back of the house or something. At
>>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
>>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
>>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
>>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
>>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
>>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
>>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>>> Wonderful. You have provided us with a reasonable ESTIMATE of the time
>>>> of the shooting.
>>
>>> Thank you, I guess
>>
>>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
>>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
>>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
>>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>>> I can't wait to see where this is going.
>>
>>>>> Working backwards:
>>>>> Mary Brock
>>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
>>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>>> HUH???!!!
>>
>>> Well, it was either not the shooter she saw, not six minutes after the
>>> been badly wounded,& was limping, or crawling, down Jefferson, very,
>>> very slowly....
>>> dcw
>>
>>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
>>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
>>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived&
>>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>>> Five minutes??? Do you think he started a stopwatch when he saw the
>>>> "young white man"? Or do you think he was just guessing at the
>>>> elapsed time?
>>
>>> Doesn't matter. I hardly think the dispatcher would translate "five
>>> minutes" into "just passed"....
>>
>>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
>>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only a block
>>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
>>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>>> shooting. But he took what Benavides said 4 years later ("2
>>> seconds"); I took what he said in 1964 ("2 minutes"), for the time he
>>> waited in his truck for the shooter to clear out. Do you really
>>> believe that "2 seconds"?!?
>>> dcw
>>
>>>>> Ted Callaway
>>>>> Enlisted in an absurdly belated quest with Scoggins, in his cab, to
>>>>> track down the killer. Unfortunately for the credibility of this
>>>>> pursuit story could not begin in earnest until after he got off the
>>>>> radio, some 8 minutes after the shooting.
>>
>>>> 8 minutes? Or do you mean ABOUT 8 minutes? Without ways of verifying
>>>> precise times, ABOUT is the best you can do.
>>
>>> 1:20 is exact. At the latest--1:14-1/2, for the shooting, in Myers'
>>> estimation--it's still 5-1/2 minutes after the shooting. It's still a
>>> frosty pursuit....
>>
>>>>> Benavides was the most
>>>>> hapless victim of this (quite successful, as it happened) attempt to
>>>>> cover up Scoggins' apparent recalcitrance re identifying the wrong
>>>>> person (i.e., Oswald) as the killer: Benavides had his boss,
>>>>> hand", *after* Callaway's radio call, which actually, in turn, was
>>>>> placed *after* the ambulance had taken away Tippit's body (v6p452/WM
>>>>> p384)! Inevitably, the greater absurdity of the cab trackdown issued
>>>>> in such lesser absurdities.... The 1:21 transmission is the final nail
>>>>> in the coffin of the Scoggins/Callaway Great Auto Chase....
>>
>>>>> In sum: The 1:21 "just passed" casts doubt on four lineup-ID
>>>>> witnesses--Davis, Davis, Scoggins, and Markham--including one--
>>>>> Scoggins--who even, at one point, dared to express doubt that Oswald
>>>>> was the shooter. Was Scoggins the one who "just passed 401 E.
>>>>> Jefferson", about 1:18? No wonder Henslee (suppress), Redlich (omit),
>>
>>>>> dcw
>>
>>>> It is comical that after 47 years, this is the best the CTs can come up ...
>>
>>> And, on the subject of the 1:21 radio message, what (after some 47
>>> years) have the best LN minds--Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi--come up
>>> with? Absolutely nothing!
>>> dcw> read more �
>>
>> The bottom line to all this is that you are trying to do precise
>> calculations for a time line with imprecise data, i.e. ESTIMATES for the
>> times of certain events. That just doesn't work.
>
> Tell that to Myers....
>
> To do precise
>> calculations, you need precise data, and that just isn't available. Nobody
>> was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63. Nobody was logging exact times of any
>> of the key events. We know JFK was shot at 12:30, assuming the big Hertz
>> clock on the top of the TSBD was accurate. After that, everything is an
>> estimate.
>
> No. Someone tried to get thru on Tippit's radio at 1:16. At 1:21,
Stop dangling things. You need to explain exactly and precisely what
your thinking is here. So what if someone tried to get thru on Tippit's
radio at about 1:16? I doubt that it was Tippit. More likely a citizen
who had just seen the murder.
> the dispatcher reported that some suspicious person had "just passed"
> the Texaco station. You don't need a stopwatch, or a universal clock,
> to tell you that this person was not the shooter, whether the shooting
> was at 1:12 (my estimate) or 1:14-1/2 (Myers')....
> dcw
>
Why do we need a stopwatch at all? The murderer, in this case Oswald,
has 5 minutes to get from the murder scene to the Texaco station. Are
you claiming that is physically impossible, that not even an Olympic
sprinter could run that fast? What?
> Hill.) Yes, sure, let's buy what the DPD says about hulls& bullets
> handled behind the scenes.... And the 1:21 transmission discredits at
> least Mrs. Brock, who ID'd Oswald as the shooter, when as I noted
> above, she could only have seen someone tracking the shooter; also
> casts doubt on Virginia Davis's ID, as she saw her suspect after she
> called the cops; also reinforces Sgt Croy's report re the cab driver
> picking up Tippit's gun& giving chase--and Scoggins both delayed his
> ID till Saturday (when he testified he was with the cops on Friday)&
> later told the FBI he was far from sure (based on a photo) that Oswald
> actually was the one he saw!
> dcw
> PS Henslee, Redlich, Myers& Bugliosi avoided the 1:21 transmission
> like the plague; now we see why
>
>
Cops lie a lot. Usually that is to cover up their mistakes.
curtjester1
Texaco area at 1:18. I think he could have even been there before, as
the Texaco was only a block and a half away from the murder scene. I
don't know a lot of things, motivational-wise about people wanting to
seemingly manuever the times or evidence a particular way.
CJ
Walt
OK if you believe he went straight to the theater from the TSBD.....
How do you explain Lee Oswald telling captain Fritz that he went to
the roominghouse and changed his clothes before going to the theater.
Oswald told Fritz he went to his room, changed his clothes and then
went to the movies. He said he placed his dirty clothes (the brown
shirt and gray trousers ) in the drawer of the dresser in his room.
Captain Fritz sent some detectives to the roominghouse and they found
the clothes exactly as Oswald had said. mrs roberts a;so confirmed
that Oswald went to his room when she said she saw him when he entered
the roominghouse and when he left a few minutes later.
> CJ
bigdog
Right, guys. The POTUS has just had his brains blown out right in front of
Oswald's place of employment and he decides to take the afternoon off and
take in a movie.
tomnln
"Sean Smiley" <seansmil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c33986c7-91ac-4f71...@b19g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
> > > > read more ?
Walt
I'm sure this will come as a surprised to someone with 20/20 hindsight
like yourself....But it is a FACT not many people on the scene knew that
The POTUS had had his brains blown out. Of the dozen or so people who
were in position to actually see the presidents head expolde only a couple
could believe what they had seen.
I know that you are one of the suckers who have accepted the big lie,.....
So I'm sure that you'll reject the idea that perhaps Lee Oswald didn't
know hat The POTUS had been killed.when he decided to take the afternoon
off. He definitely knew that the TSBD was a madhouse and there wouldn't
be anymore work done that day.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 7, 2:16 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 9:30 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:> On Nov 6, 10:25 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 6, 12:03 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 6, 6:00 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 6, 12:21 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 1:19 am, Sean Smiley<dcwill...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
>>>>>>>>> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>>
>>>>>>>>> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
>>>>>>>>> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
>>>>>>>>> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
>>>>>>>>> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
>>>>>>>>> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
>>>>>>>>> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
>>>>>>>>> mean yesterday. And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
>>>>>>>>> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
>>>>>>>>> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
>>>>>>>>> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
>>>>>>>>> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
>>>>>>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
>>>>>>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
>>>>>>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
>>>>>>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>>>>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
>>>>>>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
>>>>>>>>> radio message.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
>>>>>>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
>>>>>>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
>>>>>>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>>>>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
>>>>>>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>>>>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
>>>>>>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
>>>>>>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
>>>>>>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
>>>>>>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
>>>>>>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
>>>>>>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>>>>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
>>>>>>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
>>>>>>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
>>>>>>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Working backwards:
>>>>>>>>> Mary Brock
>>>>>>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
>>>>>>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>>>>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
>>>>>>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
>>>>>>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived&
>>>>>>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>>>>>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>>>>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
>>>>>>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only a block
>>>>>>>>> away
>>
>>>>>>>>> Pat Patterson
>>>>>>>>> Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
>>>>>>>>> with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>>
>>>>>>>>> L.J. Lewis
>>>>>>>>> Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
>>>>>>>>> hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
>>>>>>>>> heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
>>>>>>>>> now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
>>>>>>>>> shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Virginia Davis
>>>>>>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
>>>>>>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>>>>>>>>> Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
>>>>>>>>> Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
>>
>>>>>>>>> William W. Scoggins
>>>>>>>>> The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
>>>>>>>>> chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
>>>>>>>>> might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
>>>>>>>>> Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
>>>>>>>>> some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
>>>>>>>>> and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
>>>>>>>>> person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
>>>>>>>>> with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
>>>>>>>>> Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
>>>>>>>>> individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
>>>>>>>>> before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
>>>>>>>>> arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
>>>>>>>>> report, above.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Mrs. Helen Markham
>>
>>>>>> ...
>>
>>>>>> read more »
>>
>>>>> Again, the main point to be made is that there were several minutes--
>>>>> passed the Texaco station. No CTer wants to acknowledge this--
>>>>> beginning with Henslee, then Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi. Because to
>>>>> discuss the subject would be to admit that supposed witnesses to
>>>>> Oswald could not have been same--the Texaco suspect was not the
So anyone who left the TSBD must therefore be an assassin? You mean like
Givens?
Sean Smiley
Again, Henslee, Redlich, Myers & Bugliosi would say otherwise! And
have, by avoiding the 1:21pm transmission & the phrase "just passed",
in favor of "last seen", which actually is "extremely vague". Their
combined silence speaks volumes Though, again, you are to be
commended in being the first to tackle this thorny LN problem....
dcw
bigdog
>
> I'm sure this will come as a surprised to someone with 20/20 hindsight
> like yourself....But it is a FACT not many people on the scene knew that
> The POTUS had had his brains blown out. Of the dozen or so people who
> were in position to actually see the presidents head expolde only a couple
> could believe what they had seen.
>
> I know that you are one of the suckers who have accepted the big lie,.....
> So I'm sure that you'll reject the idea that perhaps Lee Oswald didn't
> know hat The POTUS had been killed.when he decided to take the afternoon
> off. He definitely knew that the TSBD was a madhouse and there wouldn't
> be anymore work done that day.
Somebody who reads conspiracy theories and believes that nonsense
should not go around calling other people suckers. The simple fact is
Oswald left his workplace without authorization, a fireable offense,
especially for an unskilled laborer who could easily be replaced. The
notion that Oswald went straight from his rooming house to the theater
is laughable on so many levels. Eyewitnesses placed him at the scene
of the Tippit murder either firing the fatal shots or fleeing with a
gun in his hand. His jacket was found a short distance away. A short
time later, Oswald was seen on Jefferson acting suspisciously by
Johnny Brewer and Julia Postal. Brewer heard on the radio about both
murders, knew the police were hunting for a man in the area, and saw
Oswald apparently trying to avoid him. He saw Oswald duck into the
theater and when they determined that he had entered without buying a
ticket, called police who immediately descended on the theater. When
Oswald was arrested, he was not wearing the jacket he had left the
rooming house with but did have the gun that killed Tippit in his
possession as well as both makes of bullets used to kill Tippit and he
used that gun to attempt the arresting officer. It is impossible to
reconcile these facts with Oswald innocently leaving work early
without authorized leave and deciding to take in a movie. And you
called me a sucker???
Walt
> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
Helen Markham didn't merely say that Tippit was shot at about 1:06....She
made it the opening line in her affidavit. In my opinion the fact that
she states the time of the shooting as about 1:06, is a very strong
indication that she KNEW exactly what time the shooting occurred.
Furthermore ALL of the other events following the shooting fit with the
1:06 time. Benavides waited until he saw the killer disappear out of
sight around the corner of the house before he went directly to the patrol
car and used the radio to report the shooting. A couple of minutes after
Benavides starting using Tippit's radio TF Bowley arrived at 1:10, and
Benavides told Bowley that he weasn't sure that the dispatcher had got the
message, so Bowley then used Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
There are a lot of liars who attempt to refute these facts but there's no
way they can reasonably deny that Markham knew what time the shooting
occurred because she was "watching her time" so as not to be late in
catching the 1:12 bus which she took to work everyday. Likewise TF Boley
was also "watching his time" because he was on his way to pick up his wife
at the phone company, and was concerned that he was going to be late in
getting there.
>
> "Sean Smiley" <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
bigdog
So a vague description of an event became extremely vague. You are really
zeroing in on what time the suspect was actually seen. I think it is safe
to say it was sometime after 1:10 and before 1:21. I guess when you don't
have any hard evidence to support your theories, you have to create them
out of thin air.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 8, 12:09 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure this will come as a surprised to someone with 20/20 hindsight
>> like yourself....But it is a FACT not many people on the scene knew that
>> The POTUS had had his brains blown out. Of the dozen or so people who
>> were in position to actually see the presidents head expolde only a couple
>> could believe what they had seen.
>>
>> I know that you are one of the suckers who have accepted the big lie,.....
>> So I'm sure that you'll reject the idea that perhaps Lee Oswald didn't
>> know hat The POTUS had been killed.when he decided to take the afternoon
>> off. He definitely knew that the TSBD was a madhouse and there wouldn't
>> be anymore work done that day.
>
> Somebody who reads conspiracy theories and believes that nonsense
> should not go around calling other people suckers. The simple fact is
> Oswald left his workplace without authorization, a fireable offense,
> especially for an unskilled laborer who could easily be replaced. The
Oswald said that Truly told him there would be no more work that day and
others said the same thing.
> notion that Oswald went straight from his rooming house to the theater
> is laughable on so many levels. Eyewitnesses placed him at the scene
> of the Tippit murder either firing the fatal shots or fleeing with a
> gun in his hand. His jacket was found a short distance away. A short
> time later, Oswald was seen on Jefferson acting suspisciously by
> Johnny Brewer and Julia Postal. Brewer heard on the radio about both
> murders, knew the police were hunting for a man in the area, and saw
> Oswald apparently trying to avoid him. He saw Oswald duck into the
> theater and when they determined that he had entered without buying a
> ticket, called police who immediately descended on the theater. When
> Oswald was arrested, he was not wearing the jacket he had left the
> rooming house with but did have the gun that killed Tippit in his
Fine, but you can't prove that was the same jacket he was wearing earlier.
> possession as well as both makes of bullets used to kill Tippit and he
> used that gun to attempt the arresting officer. It is impossible to
> reconcile these facts with Oswald innocently leaving work early
> without authorized leave and deciding to take in a movie. And you
> called me a sucker???
>
So in your mind anyone who leaves work MUST be an assassin? That's the
ONLY possible reason to leave work? You didn't even realize that the
police had sealed off the TSBD and no one could get inside? So that
makes everyone outside a suspect to you.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 7, 9:09 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 2:16 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 7, 9:30 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:> On Nov 6, 10:25 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 6, 12:03 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 6, 6:00 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 6, 12:21 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Walt<papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 1:19 am, Sean Smiley<dcwill...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman--The Real Oak Cliff
>>>>>>>>>> Story Begins To Emerge, Despite Myers, Bugliosi et al
>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the first major transcription of the 11/22/63 radio logs, DPD
>>>>>>>>>> dispatcher/transcriber Gerald Henslee simply omitted it (v21p395).
>>>>>>>>>> The Warren Report's Norman Redlich simply chose a later, dated,
>>>>>>>>>> innocuous police-radio message for its telling of the Tippit murder
>>>>>>>>>> story (CE 1974 p60/ WR p175): "The suspect last seen running west on
>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson from 400 E Jefferson" (1:24pm). "Last seen"--that could
>>>>>>>>>> mean yesterday. And Redlich could have chosen a 1:21 transmission
>>>>>>>>>> more precise and urgent. Author Dale Myers devoted almost two pages
>>>>>>>>>> to 1:21pm (pp112-114) in his not-quite-exhaustive, chronological,
>>>>>>>>>> minute-by-minute telling of the shooting of Tippit, and the aftermath,
>>>>>>>>>> in "With Malice". And he quotes the DPD radio logs just before and
>>>>>>>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute. Then, in a
>>>>>>>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in completely
>>>>>>>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the back of
>>>>>>>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>>>>>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in November",
>>>>>>>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the radioactive
>>>>>>>>>> radio message.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just passed
>>>>>>>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's Jim
>>>>>>>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco service
>>>>>>>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>>>>>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the hearings.] It
>>>>>>>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>>>>>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so of
>>>>>>>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly domestic
>>>>>>>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...." (p448-49)
>>>>>>>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps. About
>>>>>>>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from shooting to
>>>>>>>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or so,
>>>>>>>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>>>>>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at 1:18--
>>>>>>>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a citizen
>>>>>>>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting. And a
>>>>>>>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Working backwards:
>>>>>>>>>> Mary Brock
>>>>>>>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at 1:18, she
>>>>>>>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>>>>>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64), wherein
>>>>>>>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes earlier,
>>>>>>>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived&
>>>>>>>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>>>>>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind the
>>>>>>>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only a block
>>>>>>>>>> away
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pat Patterson
>>>>>>>>>> Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station, but, as
>>>>>>>>>> with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at 1:18
>>
>>>>>>>>>> L.J. Lewis
>>>>>>>>>> Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in his
>>>>>>>>>> hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
>>>>>>>>>> heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But this is
>>>>>>>>>> now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting citizen--not the
>>>>>>>>>> shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at 1:21.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Virginia Davis
>>>>>>>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that [they]
>>>>>>>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>>>>>>>>>> Davis apparently did see only a citizen with a pistol, perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> Tippit's, belatedly running after the actual shooter, about 1:17.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> William W. Scoggins
>>>>>>>>>> The "cab driver [who] picked up Tippit's gun... and attempted to give
>>>>>>>>>> chase," on foot--in Sgt. Kenneth Croy's unsourced "report" (v12p202)--
>>>>>>>>>> might just have been, also, the "subject [who] just passed 401 E.
>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson", about 1:18. Scoggins was apparently with authorities for
>>>>>>>>>> some 24 hours before he could bring himself to ID Oswald in a lineup,
>>>>>>>>>> and he told the FBI--on 11/25/63--that he "could not be sure the
>>>>>>>>>> person he had observed in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63 was actually identical
>>>>>>>>>> with Oswald", as seen in a photograph. Meanwhile, fellow witness
>>>>>>>>>> Harold Russell told the FBI, on 1/21/64, that he saw an "unknown
>>>>>>>>>> individual" pick up Tippit's gun and give chase roughly "five minutes"
>>>>>>>>>> before "police officers arrived"--uniformed officers did not begin to
>>>>>>>>>> arrive until about 1:20. Russell could be the source for Croy's
>>>>>>>>>> report, above.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mrs. Helen Markham
>>
>>>>>>> ...
>>
>>
>>>>>> Again, the main point to be made is that there were several minutes--
>>>>>> passed the Texaco station. No CTer wants to acknowledge this--
>>>>>> beginning with Henslee, then Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi. Because to
>>>>>> discuss the subject would be to admit that supposed witnesses to
>>>>>> Oswald could not have been same--the Texaco suspect was not the
If Oswald was inside the TSBD eating lunch at the time of the shooting,
how would he know that Kennedy was already dead? Kennedy wasn't declared
dead until 1:07 PM. Oswald certainly knew there had been a shooting, an
assassination attempt.
Sean Smiley
Okay, I take that back, or part of it. Oswald apparently told Fritz & co.
that he changed his trousers and maybe his shirt. He said nothing about a
jacket, of course (to one way of thinking) because that would incriminate
him, since he supposedly dropped the jacket not far from the shooting
scene. But the original police-report evidence indicates that the
landlady did *not* see Oswald circa 1pm. Officers Potts & Senkel's
individual reports say only that Mrs Roberts recognized Oswald as a
tenant; she did not say anything about seeing him in the last few hours.
Of course, the authorities loved having her say that he came in in shirt
sleeves & left zipping up a jacket. But if he did do that, it was not
witnessed, just as other evidence indicates that no one saw a suspect
headed to the lot behind the Texaco....
dcw
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 7, 10:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> Helen Markham didn't merely say that Tippit was shot at about 1:06....She
> made it the opening line in her affidavit. In my opinion the fact that
> she states the time of the shooting as about 1:06, is a very strong
> indication that she KNEW exactly what time the shooting occurred.
> Furthermore ALL of the other events following the shooting fit with the
> 1:06 time. Benavides waited until he saw the killer disappear out of
> sight around the corner of the house before he went directly to the patrol
> car and used the radio to report the shooting. A couple of minutes after
> Benavides starting using Tippit's radio TF Bowley arrived at 1:10, and
> Benavides told Bowley that he weasn't sure that the dispatcher had got the
> message, so Bowley then used Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
> There are a lot of liars who attempt to refute these facts but there's no
> way they can reasonably deny that Markham knew what time the shooting
> occurred because she was "watching her time" so as not to be late in
> catching the 1:12 bus which she took to work everyday. Likewise TF Boley
> was also "watching his time" because he was on his way to pick up his wife
> at the phone company, and was concerned that he was going to be late in
> getting there.
>
>
I occasionally take the bus and I don't think it's a good plan to arrive
at the bus stop at 1:17 for a bus which is scheduled to arrive at 1:12.
>>>>>>>>> just after the message which Henslee& Redlich omitted. But he
>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> omits the most critical message from that crowded minute.
>>>>>>>>> Then, in a
>>>>>>>>> too-cagy attempt to avoid possible damage inherent in
>>>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>>>> ignoring the transmission in question, Myers dumps it in the
>>>>>>>>> back of
>>>>>>>>> the book (p384), without editorial comment. Nor does Vincent
>>>>>>>>> Bugliosi, in his page and a half re 1:21pm ("Four Days in
>>>>>>>>> November",
>>>>>>>>> pp133-135)--in his own narrative chronology--cite the
>>>>>>>>> radioactive
>>>>>>>>> radio message.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It's it: At 1:21pm, the Dallas dispatcher says, "Subject just
>>>>>>>>> passed
>>>>>>>>> 401 E. Jefferson" [radio log/CE 1974p58--FBI/CE 705p21--DPD's
>>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>>> Bowles], as Myers notes, the "address of Ballew's Texaco
>>>>>>>>> service
>>>>>>>>> station". [Note: It was, by design, Henslee's selective
>>>>>>>>> transcription which was used almost exclusively at the
>>>>>>>>> hearings.] It
>>>>>>>>> becomes clearer here why Henslee, Redlich, Myers,& Bugliosi
>>>>>>>>> the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there,& I
>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>> want to get out& rush right up. He might start shooting
>>>>>>>>> again." (v6p448) Give Benavides, then, a "few minutes" or so
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> insurance time, in case this was, say, an ongoing, deadly
>>>>>>>>> domestic
>>>>>>>>> fracas. "That is when I got out of the truck& walked over to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> policeman.... Anyway, I went in& pulled the radio...."
>>>>>>>>> (p448-49)
>>>>>>>>> Truck-to-radio walking time: another minute-plus, perhaps.
>>>>>>>>> About
>>>>>>>>> three and a half or four minutes, all told, then, from
>>>>>>>>> shooting to
>>>>>>>>> radioing. That would put the shooting back to about 1:12 or
>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>> roughly tallying with Bowley's apparently slow timepiece.
>>
>>>>>>>>> It did not take the shooter six minutes to run one block. But
>>>>>>>>> Henslee, Redlich, Myers,& Bugliosi did not want to deal with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> issue of a *second* suspect, shooter or not. The subject at
>>>>>>>>> 1:18--
>>>>>>>>> about six minutes later,& a block away--had to have been--as
>>>>>>>>> Henslee
>>>>>>>>> & co. must have suspected--a citizen chasing the shooter, a
>>>>>>>>> citizen
>>>>>>>>> wielding a gun and/or tracked from the site of the shooting.
>>>>>>>>> And a
>>>>>>>>> subject then& there calls into question the testimony and
>>>>>>>>> observations of almost every witness in Oak Cliff.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Working backwards:
>>>>>>>>> Mary Brock
>>>>>>>>> Swore she saw Oswald (WR p175), near Texaco, but clearly, at
>>>>>>>>> 1:18, she
>>>>>>>>> would not have even seen the shooter, Oswald or not
>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Brock, Texaco mechanic
>>>>>>>>> The 1:21 "just passed" undermines his FBI interview (1/21/64),
>>>>>>>>> wherein
>>>>>>>>> he says that he saw a "young white man" pass by five minutes
>>>>>>>>> earlier,
>>>>>>>>> long before witnesses Warren Reynolds& Pat Patterson arrived
>>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>>> apparently set off the "just passed" alarm
>>
>>>>>>>>> Warren Reynolds
>>>>>>>>> Testified that he "followed [the gunman] up the street behind
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> service station& lost him" (v11p436). The gunman passing
>>>>>>>>> Texaco
>>>>>>>>> could not have been the shooter, some six minutes later& only
>>>>>>>>> a block
>>>>>>>>> away
>>
>>>>>>>>> Pat Patterson
>>>>>>>>> Told the FBI that he followed Oswald to the Texaco station,
>>>>>>>>> but, as
>>>>>>>>> with Mrs. Brock, this could not have been the shooter, not at
>>>>>>>>> 1:18
>>
>>>>>>>>> L.J. Lewis
>>>>>>>>> Asserted that he "observed a white male... carrying" a gun "in
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> hand", on Patton, *after* he called the police--an assertion
>>>>>>>>> heretofore with little credibility. (8/26/64 affidavit) But
>>>>>>>>> this is
>>>>>>>>> now pretty obviously the same apparently-gun-toting
>>>>>>>>> citizen--not the
>>>>>>>>> shooter--spotted one block away, about 1:18, as radioed at
>>>>>>>>> 1:21.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Virginia Davis
>>>>>>>>> Again& again, in her WC testimony, insisted that "it was
>>>>>>>>> before [she
>>>>>>>>> & her sister-in-law] saw the boy cut across the yard that
>>>>>>>>> [they]
>>>>>>>>> called the police...." (v6p467) The radio message re Ballew's
>>>>>>>>> vindicates, in retrospect, her odd insistence: She& Barbara
>>>>> at least 6--between the time of the shooting& the time that a suspect
>>>>> passed the Texaco station. No CTer wants to acknowledge this--
>>>>> beginning with Henslee, then Redlich, Myers, Bugliosi. Because to
>>>>> discuss the subject would be to admit that supposed witnesses to
>>>>> Oswald could not have been same--the Texaco suspect was not the
>>>>> shooter, unless as I noted elsewhere, he had been wounded& was
Sean Smiley
Yes, bigdog, continue to ignore the evasions of Henslee & Co.
Apparently, they knew something that you don't, & acted accordingly--
Henslee didn't even transcribe the 1:21 message, tho it was quite
clear.... Redlich had access to a better transcription than Henslee's,
but chose not to put the 1:21 message in the Warren Report....
dcw
curtjester1
> On 11/8/2010 6:54 PM, Walt wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 10:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > Helen Markham didn't merely say that Tippit was shot at about 1:06....She
> > made it the opening line in her affidavit. In my opinion the fact that
> > she states the time of the shooting as about 1:06, is a very strong
> > indication that she KNEW exactly what time the shooting occurred.
> > Furthermore ALL of the other events following the shooting fit with the
> > 1:06 time. Benavides waited until he saw the killer disappear out of
> > sight around the corner of the house before he went directly to the patrol
> > car and used the radio to report the shooting. A couple of minutes after
> > Benavides starting using Tippit's radio TF Bowley arrived at 1:10, and
> > Benavides told Bowley that he weasn't sure that the dispatcher had got the
> > message, so Bowley then used Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
> > There are a lot of liars who attempt to refute these facts but there's no
> > way they can reasonably deny that Markham knew what time the shooting
> > occurred because she was "watching her time" so as not to be late in
> > catching the 1:12 bus which she took to work everyday. Likewise TF Boley
> > was also "watching his time" because he was on his way to pick up his wife
> > at the phone company, and was concerned that he was going to be late in
> > getting there.
>
> I occasionally take the bus and I don't think it's a good plan to arrive
> at the bus stop at 1:17 for a bus which is scheduled to arrive at 1:12.
>
>
but one never wants a bus driver to be early. Those are the buses you
miss. H. Markham's departing her premises time of 1:04 and walking
two blocks to her bus boarding stop at 1:12 , seems spot on to a
normal busrider which will want to get there a few minutes before
boarding.
CJ
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sean Smiley
> On 11/8/2010 6:54 PM, Walt wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 10:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > Helen Markham didn't merely say that Tippit was shot at about 1:06....She
> > made it the opening line in her affidavit. In my opinion the fact that
> > she states the time of the shooting as about 1:06, is a very strong
> > indication that she KNEW exactly what time the shooting occurred.
> > Furthermore ALL of the other events following the shooting fit with the
> > 1:06 time. Benavides waited until he saw the killer disappear out of
> > sight around the corner of the house before he went directly to the patrol
> > car and used the radio to report the shooting. A couple of minutes after
> > Benavides starting using Tippit's radio TF Bowley arrived at 1:10, and
> > Benavides told Bowley that he weasn't sure that the dispatcher had got the
> > message, so Bowley then used Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
> > There are a lot of liars who attempt to refute these facts but there's no
> > way they can reasonably deny that Markham knew what time the shooting
> > occurred because she was "watching her time" so as not to be late in
> > catching the 1:12 bus which she took to work everyday. Likewise TF Boley
> > was also "watching his time" because he was on his way to pick up his wife
> > at the phone company, and was concerned that he was going to be late in
> > getting there.
>
> I occasionally take the bus and I don't think it's a good plan to arrive
> at the bus stop at 1:17 for a bus which is scheduled to arrive at 1:12.
>
1:12 bus pulling away....
dcw
>
> read more »
bigdog
This reveals so much about the CT mindset. You leap to the conclusion that
the decisions and judgements made by these people are dictated by their
desire to cover up the truth, rather than simply judgement calls which
they chose to make. They didn't make the judgement calls you wanted them
to make so you assume their motives are sinister. You are like the
football fan who sees an official make a call against his team and assumes
he is biased against his team and not that he simply didn't see the play
the way the fan did. The difference between the official and the fan is
that the official doesn't care who wins the game.
Sean Smiley
Two of the LNers favorite evasive tactics: generalizing, & thereby
avoiding addressing particular issues, and spurious analogies--e.g.,
Capt. Fritz = impartial hockey official.... Je vous dis "puck"....
dcw
PS Fritz picked up the pucks
bigdog
>
> Two of the LNers favorite evasive tactics: generalizing, & thereby
> avoiding addressing particular issues, and spurious analogies--e.g.,
> Capt. Fritz = impartial hockey official.... Je vous dis "puck"....
> dcw
> PS Fritz picked up the pucks
>
I did address the issue which is that you are assuming that the driving
force behind the decisions made by the people involved was to cover up the
truth. You make that assumption simply because they made different choices
than you think they should have made. You have done nothing which
indicates there was any concerted effort to conceal the truth.
Sean Smiley
No, you just generalized that the four people involved simply made
everyday decisions. Let's take the first--Henslee. For 1:20-21, he
notes:
"85/Walker: I just passed (for the next few minutes there was quite a
bit of confusion as to location of shooting & suspect)" [v21p395]. A)
That "just passed" has nothing to do with 85/Walker; Henslee simply
pasted an "I" on "just passed". B) That there was location confusion
is one thing; that Henslee for some reason (not because of confusion)
omitted "Subject just passed 401 E. Jefferson" is another. He used
the one fact to cover up the other. There is still "confusion" at
1:22, & yet Henslee transcribes "Last seen about the 300 block of E
Jefferson" there. Textbook cover-up....
dcw
Bud
> On 11/8/2010 6:54 PM, Walt wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 7, 10:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > Helen Markham didn't merely say that Tippit was shot at about 1:06....She
> > made it the opening line in her affidavit. In my opinion the fact that
> > she states the time of the shooting as about 1:06, is a very strong
> > indication that she KNEW exactly what time the shooting occurred.
> > Furthermore ALL of the other events following the shooting fit with the
> > 1:06 time. Benavides waited until he saw the killer disappear out of
> > sight around the corner of the house before he went directly to the patrol
> > car and used the radio to report the shooting. A couple of minutes after
> > Benavides starting using Tippit's radio TF Bowley arrived at 1:10, and
> > Benavides told Bowley that he weasn't sure that the dispatcher had got the
> > message, so Bowley then used Tippit's radio to contact the dispatcher.
> > There are a lot of liars who attempt to refute these facts but there's no
> > way they can reasonably deny that Markham knew what time the shooting
> > occurred because she was "watching her time" so as not to be late in
> > catching the 1:12 bus which she took to work everyday. Likewise TF Boley
> > was also "watching his time" because he was on his way to pick up his wife
> > at the phone company, and was concerned that he was going to be late in
> > getting there.
>
> I occasionally take the bus and I don't think it's a good plan to arrive
> at the bus stop at 1:17 for a bus which is scheduled to arrive at 1:12.
What was Markham`s bus, and when was it scheduled to stop at her
stop Tony?
> ...
>
> read more »
Bud
> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
By Oswald.
> "Sean Smiley" <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
> read more »
Bud
<snicker> Textbook CTer silliness. Whats the idea Don, that Henslee
was told that Tippit was going to be shot and was sent to broadcast
misinformation? And you want to support these sorts of incredible
ideas with this weak ass shit? Give it a rest, the only think you are
establishing is that you folks have no business looking at this event
at all, you focus on all the wrong information.
> dcw
Sean Smiley
> On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> By Oswald.
>
By which Oswald? One (according to Guinyard & Russell) ran up Patton to
Jefferson & down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham & Jimmy
Burt) ran to Patton, then down the alley off Patton. I believe there's
some principle of physics to the effect that one person can't be in two
places at once....
dcw
Sean Smiley
So you don't think bigdog is doing such a crackerjack job refuting me, eh?
You're taking over. Think again. At least he's following the thread &
knows *what* to refute. Who said anything anywhere about Henslee
"broadcasting misinformation"? Get a life, or at least let bd do his
job....
dcw
tomnln
dcw
When you have "Magic Bullets"...it allows for "'Magic Suspects" also.
curtjester1
> "Sean Smiley" <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Not necessarily applicable. There *WERE* numerous sightings and
events that place another or set-up person for 'a Oswald' in the
previous months AND on the day of the assassination.
I am just starting the Douglas book on JFK and The Unspeakable and
even before it starts, it's got Oswald taking off in a CIA plane at
3:30 from Dallas. At least keep an open mind, Tom. There were 10-12
people who claimed seeing a closeness of Oswald enought to say
'"Oswald'", in their witness testimony from E. Tenth to the murder
scene to the Texas Theater...(and even beyond).
CJ
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:d37a09ef-0f03-4cc7...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> read more �
Bud
> On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > By Oswald.
>
> By which Oswald?
The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
up.
Sean Smiley
> On Nov 11, 6:52 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > > By Oswald.
>
> > By which Oswald?
>
> The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
> up.
>
sidewalk on 10th (read her testimony) & up the alley (see her
interview). But no matter how many discrepancies in the run-up, yes,
they all picked the same guy. Scoggins, tho, was with the cops by
1:30pm Friday, & did not ID Oswald until about the same time
Saturday. I know, they were pals, & he didn't want to rat on a
buddy....
dcw
Sean Smiley
Damn! You scared off bigdog. He's sensitive about being one-upped,
or one-downed....
dcw
bigdog
> On Nov 12, 6:35 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Sean Smiley" <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:5bed1523-67c5-4aac...@37g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or,
> > > > 1:07.
>
> > > By Oswald.
>
> > By which Oswald? One (according to Guinyard & Russell) ran up Patton to
> > Jefferson & down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham & Jimmy
> > Burt) ran to Patton, then down the alley off Patton. I believe there's
> > some principle of physics to the effect that one person can't be in two
> > places at once....
>
> > dcw
> > When you have "Magic Bullets"...it allows for "'Magic Suspects" also.
>
> Not necessarily applicable. There *WERE* numerous sightings and
> events that place another or set-up person for 'a Oswald' in the
> previous months AND on the day of the assassination.
>
> I am just starting the Douglas book on JFK and The Unspeakable and
> even before it starts, it's got Oswald taking off in a CIA plane at
> 3:30 from Dallas.
And you're still going to read the rest of it? Why?
John McAdams
>On Nov 12, 11:41=A0am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 6:35=A0am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily applicable. There *WERE* numerous sightings and
>> events that place another or set-up person for 'a Oswald' in the
>> previous months AND on the day of the assassination.
>>
>> I am just starting the Douglas book on JFK and The Unspeakable and
>> even before it starts, it's got Oswald taking off in a CIA plane at
>> 3:30 from Dallas.
>
>And you're still going to read the rest of it? Why?
>
Well . . . it gets better. The plane stops at Roswell, and then goes
to Area 51!
I'm not kidding.
I had to read it to do a review for Max Holland's site.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Could be true. Many think Tippit was known on the street, but what about
Oswald? I think Markham's son was given a ride or gave a ride with Oswald
in the car, and I heard Jimmy Burt knew Oswald and a lot more than would
have been known...
CJ
bigdog
Aw, now you ruined it for the rest of us.
Bud
> SEE>>> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/some_slides.htm
Theres nothing there about Markham`s bus, Tom.
And who is that guy on the top of the page? He looks like he should
be holding a plaque with some numbers on it.
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
> > read more �
Ala
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:110167d9-f406-4a74...@o15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>Not necessarily applicable. There *WERE* numerous sightings and
>events that place another or set-up person for 'a Oswald' in the
>previous months AND on the day of the assassination.
>I am just starting the Douglas book on JFK and The Unspeakable and
>even before it starts, it's got Oswald taking off in a CIA plane at
>3:30 from Dallas. At least keep an open mind, Tom. There were 10-12
>people who claimed seeing a closeness of Oswald enought to say
'>"Oswald'", in their witness testimony from E. Tenth to the murder
>scene to the Texas Theater...(and even beyond).
Are you going to read the Gerald Blaine book
Bud
> On Nov 12, 8:49 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:> On Nov 11, 6:52 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 11, 8:50 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > > > By Oswald.
>
> > > By which Oswald?
>
> > The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
> > up.
>
> Oh, yeah, the bushy-haired,
See the arrest photo on this page.
Nailed him!
> stocky,
Markham: "And he was, uh,uh well not too heavy, uh, say around 160,
maybe 150"
Nailed him again!
> short one
Oswald was a small guy. Nailed him again!
>who ran down the
> sidewalk on 10th (read her testimony) & up the alley (see her
> interview). But no matter how many discrepancies in the run-up, yes,
> they all picked the same guy. Scoggins, tho, was with the cops by
> 1:30pm Friday, & did not ID Oswald until about the same time
> Saturday.
But he did say it was Oswald, as did Callaway who Oswald passed on
the same street.
Anthony Marsh
Is that the best you can come up with?
What about Anon E. Mouse?
Walt
> On Nov 12, 2:36 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:49 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:> On Nov 11, 6:52 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 11, 8:50 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > > > > By Oswald.
>
> > > > By which Oswald?
>
> > > The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
> > > up.
>
> > Oh, yeah, the bushy-haired,
>
> See the arrest photo on this page.
>
>
> Nailed him!
>
> > stocky,
>
> Markham: "And he was, uh,uh well not too heavy, uh, say around 160,
> maybe 150"
>
> Nailed him again!
>
> > short one
>
> Oswald was a small guy. Nailed him again!
>
> >who ran down the
> > sidewalk on 10th (read her testimony) & up the alley (see her
> > interview). But no matter how many discrepancies in the run-up, yes,
> > they all picked the same guy. Scoggins, tho, was with the cops by
> > 1:30pm Friday, & did not ID Oswald until about the same time
> > Saturday.
>
> But he did say it was Oswald, as did Callaway who Oswald passed on
> the same street.
But he did say it was Oswald, as did Callaway who Oswald passed on
the same street.
Question:.... If Blow Hard Callaway passed the fleeing gunman on the
street,.... then why would he say to Benavides..."You saw him didn't
you? Which way did he go ? C'mon, Let's go see if we can find him?
>
>
>
> > I know, they were pals, & he didn't want to rat on a
> > buddy....
> > dcw
>
> > > >One (according to Guinyard & Russell) ran up Patton to
> > > > Jefferson & down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham & Jimmy
> > > > Burt) ran to Patton, then down the alley off Patton. I believe there's
> > > > some principle of physics to the effect that one person can't be in two
> > > > places at once....
>
> > > > dcw- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
curtjester1
>
Because it's written by an intelligent person who knows more about JFK
than probably the whole internet sites combined. Sorry, if it doesn't
exactly put you in a great light, but well, if the shoe fits as they
say.....
BTW, I have read a little further and just for history sake's alone, this
is just too much as in great. Lot's of secret communications between
Kruschev and JFK, and RFK and laisons...stuff you wouldn't catch anywhere
else. And yes, one will understand the Cold War and Oswald being a
pinball in that game and why he did what he did as far as defection as
well as the seemingly unexplainability of his gov't's actions.
CJ
bigdog
According to McAdams, Douglas has Oswald flying to Roswell and Area 51.
Are you buying that too? Do you think intelligent people write stuff like
that?
> BTW, I have read a little further and just for history sake's alone, this
> is just too much as in great. Lot's of secret communications between
> Kruschev and JFK, and RFK and laisons...stuff you wouldn't catch anywhere
> else. And yes, one will understand the Cold War and Oswald being a
> pinball in that game and why he did what he did as far as defection as
> well as the seemingly unexplainability of his gov't's actions.
>
Hook, line, and sinker.
Sean Smiley
> On Nov 12, 2:36 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:49 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:> On Nov 11, 6:52 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 11, 8:50 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>
> > > > > By Oswald.
>
> > > > By which Oswald?
>
> > > The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
> > > up.
>
> > Oh, yeah, the bushy-haired,
>
> See the arrest photo on this page.
>
>
> Nailed him!
>
> > stocky,
>
> Markham: "And he was, uh,uh well not too heavy, uh, say around 160,
> maybe 150"
>
> Nailed him again!
>
> > short one
>
> Oswald was a small guy. Nailed him again!
>
> >who ran down the
> > sidewalk on 10th (read her testimony) & up the alley (see her
> > interview). But no matter how many discrepancies in the run-up, yes,
> > they all picked the same guy. Scoggins, tho, was with the cops by
> > 1:30pm Friday, & did not ID Oswald until about the same time
> > Saturday.
>
> But he did say it was Oswald, as did Callaway who Oswald passed on
> the same street.
>
And what exactly did Callaway tell the cops on the radio, at 1:20,
about the man who "passed" him?
dcw
Sean Smiley
Okay. In our last episode, Bud had scared off bigdog. So I'll have
to take on the roles of dcw (otherwise known as me) *and* bigdog. So,
here's bigdog's reply to this dcw post:
(I'm bigdog here) I couldn't agree more! Nailed it! (says bigdog)
How could I ever have doubted you?
And here's my reply (dcw, that is) to bigdog:
(me) I don't know, bigdog. This doesn't sound like you. Praise?
Praise? Sounds like someone impersonating you, & very poorly.
bigdog (me, really):
This is getting a little surreal. I'm gone....
Bud
You don`t have the radio transcripts?
bigdog
Just one question.
What the hell are you talking about?
Sean Smiley
I have transcriptions & tapes. Again, what did Callaway, on the
radio, tell the cops about the man who supposedly passed him? How did
he describe him? Which way did he tell them that he went? He has
just seen someone who apparently shot a cop & what does he say about
that someone?
dcw
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 13, 11:32 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 6:31 pm, Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2:36 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 8:49 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:> On Nov 11, 6:52 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 11, 8:50 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at 1:06 or, 1:07.
>>
>>>>>>> By Oswald.
>>
>>>>>> By which Oswald?
>>
>>>>> The one Markham saw shoot Tippit. The one she selected from the line-
>>>>> up.
>>
>>>> Oh, yeah, the bushy-haired,
>>
>>> See the arrest photo on this page.
>>
>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4797812/Ow...
>>
>>> Nailed him!
>>
>>>> stocky,
>>
>>> Markham: "And he was, uh,uh well not too heavy, uh, say around 160,
>>> maybe 150"
>>
>>> Nailed him again!
>>
>>>> short one
>>
>>> Oswald was a small guy. Nailed him again!
>>
>>>> who ran down the
>>>> interview). But no matter how many discrepancies in the run-up, yes,
>>>> they all picked the same guy. Scoggins, tho, was with the cops by
>>>> Saturday.
>>
>>> But he did say it was Oswald, as did Callaway who Oswald passed on
>>> the same street.
>>
>> And what exactly did Callaway tell the cops on the radio, at 1:20,
>> about the man who "passed" him?
>> dcw
>
> You don`t have the radio transcripts?
>
Which faulty set do you rely on?
Why not use the actual tapes?
Oh, I remember now, the government continues to withhold them.
Sean Smiley
Oh, good. You're back. Bud & I can stop subbing for you....
dcw (me)
PS Go back to 11/11 to see how Henslee screwed everyone
bigdog
At best, you have demonstrated a transcription error by Henslee. BFD.
His "last seen" reference is accurate. Once again, you are making a
mole hill out of an ant hill.
Bud
I don`t think he did, whats your point? That he must? That is proven
wrong by the fact that he didn`t.
> dcw
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 14, 9:19 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 14, 2:23 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 14, 1:01 pm, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 3:47 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 10, 7:28 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 10, 6:39 am, Sean Smiley<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> avoiding addressing particular issues, and spurious analogies--e.g.,
>>>>>>> Capt. Fritz = impartial hockey official.... Je vous dis "puck"....
>>>>>>> dcw
>>>>>>> PS Fritz picked up the pucks
>>
>>>>>> I did address the issue which is that you are assuming that the driving
>>>>>> force behind the decisions made by the people involved was to cover up the
>>>>>> truth. You make that assumption simply because they made different choices
>>>>>> than you think they should have made. You have done nothing which
>>>>>> indicates there was any concerted effort to conceal the truth.
>>
>>>>> No, you just generalized that the four people involved simply made
>>>>> everyday decisions. Let's take the first--Henslee. For 1:20-21, he
>>>>> notes:
>>>>> "85/Walker: I just passed (for the next few minutes there was quite a
>>>>> That "just passed" has nothing to do with 85/Walker; Henslee simply
>>>>> pasted an "I" on "just passed". B) That there was location confusion
>>>>> is one thing; that Henslee for some reason (not because of confusion)
>>>>> omitted "Subject just passed 401 E. Jefferson" is another. He used
>>>>> the one fact to cover up the other. There is still "confusion" at
>>>>> Jefferson" there. Textbook cover-up....
>>>>> dcw
>>
>>>> Okay. In our last episode, Bud had scared off bigdog. So I'll have
>>>> to take on the roles of dcw (otherwise known as me) *and* bigdog. So,
>>>> here's bigdog's reply to this dcw post:
>>>> (I'm bigdog here) I couldn't agree more! Nailed it! (says bigdog)
>>>> How could I ever have doubted you?
>>
>>>> And here's my reply (dcw, that is) to bigdog:
>>>> (me) I don't know, bigdog. This doesn't sound like you. Praise?
>>
>>>> bigdog (me, really):
>>>> This is getting a little surreal. I'm gone....
>>
>>> Just one question.
>>
>>> What the hell are you talking about?
>>
>> dcw (me)
>> PS Go back to 11/11 to see how Henslee screwed everyone
>
>
> At best, you have demonstrated a transcription error by Henslee. BFD.
> His "last seen" reference is accurate. Once again, you are making a
> mole hill out of an ant hill.
>
The first few transcripts were very inaccurate.
Sean Smiley
dcw
> > dcw
Sean Smiley
At the least, you've got an "error" ("I just passed"), an omission
("Subject just passed"), and a telling choice ("last seen", which says
nothing about time). Strike three. And by the time more accurate
transmissions have become available, the Commission has already
questioned almost all DPD witnesses, including Henslee. And, then, to
seal the cover-up deal, Norman Redlich again chooses to use the later,
"last seen" transmission, for the Warren Report, rather than the
earlier, more urgent "just passed" at 1:21. Where there's smoke....
dcw
Bud
> On Nov 15, 3:23 pm,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 14, 5:28 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > > On Nov 13, 11:32 pm, Sean Smiley <seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
He is corroborated on that point by other people. You`re are trying
to support extraordinary ideas with nothing again.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > dcw
Bud
> > > > > to take on the roles of dcw (otherwise known as me) *and* bigdog. So,
> > > > > here's bigdog's reply to this dcw post:
> > > > > (I'm bigdog here) I couldn't agree more! Nailed it! (says bigdog)
> > > > > How could I ever have doubted you?
>
> > > > > And here's my reply (dcw, that is) to bigdog:
> > > > > (me) I don't know, bigdog. This doesn't sound like you. Praise?
> > > > > Praise? Sounds like someone impersonating you, & very poorly.
>
> > > > > bigdog (me, really):
> > > > > This is getting a little surreal. I'm gone....
>
> > > > Just one question.
>
> > > > What the hell are you talking about?
>
> > > dcw (me)
> > > PS Go back to 11/11 to see how Henslee screwed everyone
>
> > At best, you have demonstrated a transcription error by Henslee. BFD.
> > His "last seen" reference is accurate. Once again, you are making a
> > mole hill out of an ant hill.
>
> At the least, you've got an "error" ("I just passed"), an omission
> ("Subject just passed"), and a telling choice ("last seen", which says
> nothing about time). Strike three. And by the time more accurate
> transmissions have become available, the Commission has already
> questioned almost all DPD witnesses, including Henslee. And, then, to
> seal the cover-up deal, Norman Redlich again chooses to use the later,
> "last seen" transmission, for the Warren Report, rather than the
> earlier, more urgent "just passed" at 1:21. Where there's smoke....
Wow, you may have found an issue that needs more information in
order to clear it up. Good luck getting it now. It isn`t strong enough
to support any extraordinary ideas, so what good is it?
> dcw
curtjester1
That was an account of Robert Vinson, which supports a second Oswald
during the JFK to Tippit aftermath, which is supported in theory by E.B.
White, Bernard Haire, the detaining officers in the balcony of the Texas
Theater, a clerk at the Top Ten Record store, and well all the ones that
ID'd an Oswald when TSBD Oswald was clearly at the Texas Theater just
after 1:00 P.M.
I believe somebody inserted an Area 51 to put the 'weird spin' which
is very common on the story-telling LNT side.
> > BTW, I have read a little further and just for history sake's alone, this
> > is just too much as in great. Lot's of secret communications between
> > Kruschev and JFK, and RFK and laisons...stuff you wouldn't catch anywhere
> > else. And yes, one will understand the Cold War and Oswald being a
> > pinball in that game and why he did what he did as far as defection as
> > well as the seemingly unexplainability of his gov't's actions.
>
> Hook, line, and sinker.- Hide quoted text -
>
It should be a history book taught in schools with the depth of the direct
JFK actions with his people and all communications along with more CIA,
and Army Staff, etc, very well corroborated events. I am sure a
McAcademia is about as far as reading goes with most LNT historians.
CJ
John McAdams
wrote:
>On Nov 13, 11:10=A0pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 13, 2:47=A0pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>That was an account of Robert Vinson, which supports a second Oswald
>during the JFK to Tippit aftermath, which is supported in theory by E.B.
>White, Bernard Haire, the detaining officers in the balcony of the Texas
>Theater, a clerk at the Top Ten Record store, and well all the ones that
>ID'd an Oswald when TSBD Oswald was clearly at the Texas Theater just
>after 1:00 P.M.
>
>I believe somebody inserted an Area 51 to put the 'weird spin' which
>is very common on the story-telling LNT side.
>
Check page 298 of Douglass.
Actually, Vinson said "Site 51," the then told how he had seen
"experimental aircraft shaped like saucers."
He added that he saw the same "saucers" at Roswell.
Further, the "saucers" people saw in the area came not from outer
space but from the CIA.
bigdog
>
> At the least, you've got an "error" ("I just passed"), an omission
> ("Subject just passed"), and a telling choice ("last seen", which says
> nothing about time). Strike three. And by the time more accurate
> transmissions have become available, the Commission has already
> questioned almost all DPD witnesses, including Henslee. And, then, to
> seal the cover-up deal, Norman Redlich again chooses to use the later,
> "last seen" transmission, for the Warren Report, rather than the
> earlier, more urgent "just passed" at 1:21. Where there's smoke....
..there's a wet blanket.
bigdog
> On Nov 13, 11:10 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > According to McAdams, Douglas has Oswald flying to Roswell and Area 51.
> > Are you buying that too? Do you think intelligent people write stuff like
> > that?
>
> That was an account of Robert Vinson, which supports a second Oswald
> during the JFK to Tippit aftermath, which is supported in theory by E.B.
> White, Bernard Haire, the detaining officers in the balcony of the Texas
> Theater, a clerk at the Top Ten Record store, and well all the ones that
> ID'd an Oswald when TSBD Oswald was clearly at the Texas Theater just
> after 1:00 P.M.
>
> I believe somebody inserted an Area 51 to put the 'weird spin' which
> is very common on the story-telling LNT side.
>
You guys supply us with so much weird shit there is no need for any of
us to make any up.
tomnln
CJ
lOTS OF STUFF IS WRITTEN TO BENEFIT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE "SBT".
Anthony Marsh
You seem a little confused. Our flying saucers come from DARPA, not the CIA.
We had experimental aircraft shaped like saucers back in 1952.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Avrocar_flying.jpg
Sean Smiley
See the "more information" in the original post, 11/5....
dcw
Sean Smiley
Yeah, Guinyard, only, who had the gunman running down one side of
Patton while Callaway said he ran down the other side! Nice
corroboration!
dcw
Bud
Ah, man, don`t make me wade through your nonsense, don. The "more
information" you need is someone seeing one gunman, and later seeing
another one.
BTW, it was "just" Veterans Day. How much time has to elapse before
you stop using the qualifier "just", is there a formula?
> dcw
Bud
> On 11/16/2010 8:19 PM, John McAdams wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >> On Nov 13, 11:10=A0pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> On Nov 13, 2:47=A0pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> That was an account of Robert Vinson, which supports a second Oswald
> >> during the JFK to Tippit aftermath, which is supported in theory by E.B.
> >> White, Bernard Haire, the detaining officers in the balcony of the Texas
> >> Theater, a clerk at the Top Ten Record store, and well all the ones that
> >> ID'd an Oswald when TSBD Oswald was clearly at the Texas Theater just
> >> after 1:00 P.M.
>
> >> I believe somebody inserted an Area 51 to put the 'weird spin' which
> >> is very common on the story-telling LNT side.
>
> > Check page 298 of Douglass.
>
> > Actually, Vinson said "Site 51," the then told how he had seen
> > "experimental aircraft shaped like saucers."
>
> > He added that he saw the same "saucers" at Roswell.
>
> > Further, the "saucers" people saw in the area came not from outer
> > space but from the CIA.
>
> You seem a little confused.
Strangely enough it is you once more. .John was stating Douglass`s
position, not his own.
> Our flying saucers come from DARPA, not the CIA.
> We had experimental aircraft shaped like saucers back in 1952.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Avrocar_flying.jpg
The best BS contains a grain of truth.
Sean Smiley
Oh, yeah--the Warren Report
curtjester1
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Which tells a lot. If it was a stock market, the blue chip stocks
would favor SBT, because of what the system portrays, money manuevers
(even when there are presidents in the way).
And didn't they go out of the way to do 'computer projections'?? Yet,
anyone can see with an ounce of angles and trajectory sense, that a
bullet entering the back almost six inches below the collar line is
NEVER going to line up with a guy sitting a good way in front of him
with a shooter aiming from a building from above. It doesn't even
line up with the throat first of all, much less someone ahead of that
person. If it even came out the throat which it couldn't have, it
would have still come out lower than JBC's armpit area...
CJ
Sean Smiley
Or someone seeing the gunman shooting, at about 1:12, then someone else
seeing *a* gunman, a block or so away, at about 1:18. No, not exact
science, but scary enough possibilities here for LNers *never* to address
the issue, until 2010.... (Among those avoiding the issue: Henslee,
Redlich, Myers, & Bugliosi.)
dcw
>
> BTW, it was "just" Veterans Day. How much time has to elapse before
> you stop using the qualifier "just", is there a formula?
>
In the context of police-radio messages, "just" doesn't mean "five minutes
ago".... Just three minutes after the 1:21 "just passed", they were saying
only "last seen", so I guess "just" meant something to the dispatchers....
dcw
bigdog
Dale Myers computer animation indicates otherwise. All that is
necessary is to place JFK and JBC in their correct positions relative
to one another. If JFK and JBC were at the same level, the bullet
would have hit JBC lower, but JFK's seat was elevated above JBC's.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 16, 11:25 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "curtjester1"<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:e189abbb-4a40-4139...@s4g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 13, 11:10 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 13, 2:47 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 3:30 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 12, 11:41 am, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 12, 6:35 am, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> "Sean Smiley"<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>>>> news:5bed1523-67c5-4aac...@37g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at
>>>>>>>>> 1:06 or,
>>>>>>>>> 1:07.
>>
>>>>>>>> By Oswald.
>>
>>>>>>> Patton to
>>>>>>> Jefferson& down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham&
The 6 inches below the collar line is a myth. That was not the measurement
taken. The measurement taken was the hole in his jacket, not his back. The
hole in his jacket is well below the top of his shoulders. The hole in his
back as seen on the autopsy photo is just below the top of his shoulders.
Hence the hole in his back is not as far down as the hole in his jacket.
Arguendo if a bullet had hit his back at the level of the hole in the
jacket with the jacket smooth on his back the entrance wound would be so
low that such a downward trajectory would hit the manubrium which we know
was not hit.
Anthony Marsh
Another pointless post. You ignore the fact that the CIA and Pentagon
had a program to make people believe in UFOs instead of realizing they
were actually our experiments.
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Animation = Cartoon Projection. Myers is one that used to believe
Oswald was on the second floor and not a shooter, so off the getgo, he
falls behind in credibility. The SBT loses at the onstart as all
these computer portrayals forget that the shirt depicts where the
wound was in the back and it NEVER aligns above the shirt collar
front. Of course there is no proof of where the back wound probing
went to, and well, Myers has been confronted on many numerous issues
that he doesn't care to be too precise on, which is what is needed to
make a movie of what you want. You make the cartoon movie, and nobody
watching is going to be able to address you. Well, the addressing is
still going on, if you want to read into some of the finer points, one
can click onto Pat Speer's look at what Myers is trying to pull off on
the public in this link a little way's down.
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html
CJ
Bud
<snicker> Just because you can`t find the point doesn`t mean it
isn`t there. Have Maggsy help you.
> You ignore the fact that the CIA and Pentagon
> had a program to make people believe in UFOs instead of realizing they
> were actually our experiments.
Thanks for the example that supports what I wrote.
Walt
> Oswald was on the second floor and not a shooter, so off the getgo, he
> falls behind in credibility. The SBT loses at the onstart as all
> these computer portrayals forget that the shirt depicts where the
> wound was in the back and it NEVER aligns above the shirt collar
> front. Of course there is no proof of where the back wound probing
> went to, and well, Myers has been confronted on many numerous issues
> that he doesn't care to be too precise on, which is what is needed to
> make a movie of what you want. You make the cartoon movie, and nobody
> watching is going to be able to address you. Well, the addressing is
> still going on, if you want to read into some of the finer points, one
> can click onto Pat Speer's look at what Myers is trying to pull off on
> the public in this link a little way's down.
>
> http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html
>
> CJ
Hey CJ.....I believe that you've posted to the wrong thread ... The topic
in this thread is:... "The Police-Radio Message Re a Second Tippit Gunman"
Try to focus on the subject matter.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 17, 9:37 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 16, 11:25 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "curtjester1"<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> news:e189abbb-4a40-4139...@s4g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Nov 13, 11:10 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 13, 2:47 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 12, 3:30 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 12, 11:41 am, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 6:35 am, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "Sean Smiley"<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>>>>> news:5bed1523-67c5-4aac...@37g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at
>>>>>>>>>> 1:06 or,
>>>>>>>>>> 1:07.
>>
>>>>>>>>> By Oswald.
>>
>>>>>>>> Patton to
>>>>>>>> Jefferson& down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham&
You paint yourself into a corner.
You try to claim that the SBT can not work if Kennedy and Connally were
seated at the same height as Dale Myers portrayed it. He said the
conspiracy authors made a mistake of 3 inches which is why the SBT does
not work, if Kennedy's and Connally's seats are at the same height. Then
he simply moves Connally's seat down 3 inches to the correct height and
claims the SBT then will work perfectly.
Are you with me so far? This is what you think Dale Myers proved.
But he lied. Connally was not the same height as JFK as Dale Myers
portrays in his drawing. Connally was 6'2" whereas Kennedy was 6' 1/2"
tall. So Myers should have started with Connally sitting higher than
Kennedy. About an 1-1/2" higher. Then when he moves the seat down
Connally would end up about 1-1/2" lower than Kennedy.
But his cartoon doesn't do that. It places Connally 3 inches lower than
Kennedy. He makes an error of 1-1/2" while he claims that conspiracy
authors make an error of 3". Yet he claims that all he has to do to get
his SBT to work is to use the correct data. But then he lies about the
data and uses the wrong data and still claims that his SBT works
perfectly. And you fall for it.
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w357/martyh_2008/31.png
The fact remains that no matter what the real conditions were you would
always claim that a SBT works no matter what the real conditions were.
Bud
Are you saying it has to be real people firing real bullets into
other real people to count?
> Myers is one that used to believe
> Oswald was on the second floor and not a shooter, so off the getgo, he
> falls behind in credibility.
As does anyone who doesn`t believe Oswald shot Kennedy.
> The SBT loses at the onstart as all
> these computer portrayals forget that the shirt depicts where the
> wound was in the back and it NEVER aligns above the shirt collar
> front.
You are approaching it backwards, you need to align the shirt to
the hole in Kennedy`s back as seen in the autopsy photo. Once you
correct your approach the SBT theory works fine.
> Of course there is no proof of where the back wound probing
> went to, and well, Myers has been confronted on many numerous issues
> that he doesn't care to be too precise on, which is what is needed to
> make a movie of what you want. You make the cartoon movie, and nobody
> watching is going to be able to address you. Well, the addressing is
> still going on, if you want to read into some of the finer points, one
> can click onto Pat Speer's look at what Myers is trying to pull off on
> the public in this link a little way's down.
>
> http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html
Where can I click onto the CTers explanation for the wounds on these
victims?
> CJ
curtjester1
>
Whether you argue Bunch Coat or 5 3/4 Inches, the real sign is where the
hole in the shirt is. That's going to be the same place the wound is and
it can't be said there's a hole over here or a hole over there like some
do. A bullet in the back NEVER aligns with the throat as you allude to,
as the throat is at least even if not above the top of the shoulders.
One can't get a downward trajectory at that point in the back and have it
go upwards unless something deflected it up, which then would put 'UP' a
further impossibility of going in that direction and hitting a JBC in the
theoretical spot bantered about.
CJ
bigdog
> On Nov 17, 11:46 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Dale Myers computer animation indicates otherwise. All that is
> > necessary is to place JFK and JBC in their correct positions relative
> > to one another. If JFK and JBC were at the same level, the bullet
> > would have hit JBC lower, but JFK's seat was elevated above JBC's.
>
> Oswald was on the second floor and not a shooter, so off the getgo, he
> falls behind in credibility. The SBT loses at the onstart as all
> these computer portrayals forget that the shirt depicts where the
> wound was in the back and it NEVER aligns above the shirt collar
> front. Of course there is no proof of where the back wound probing
> went to, and well, Myers has been confronted on many numerous issues
> that he doesn't care to be too precise on, which is what is needed to
> make a movie of what you want. You make the cartoon movie, and nobody
> watching is going to be able to address you. Well, the addressing is
> still going on, if you want to read into some of the finer points, one
> can click onto Pat Speer's look at what Myers is trying to pull off on
> the public in this link a little way's down.
>
http://arlen-specter.tripod.com/index.htm
Naturally, Specter cannot place the rod to show the actual bullet path
because he would have to skewer the agent to do that, so he holds the
rod off to the side to show the plane of the bullet path. Notice that
even though the rod is held well below the top of the collar of both
the shirt and jacket in the back, it extends downward through the knot
of the tie where the bullet exited and to point of entrance on JBC's
back. I don't know where people get the idea that the back wound was
below the throat wound.
I know you and Rossley like to dismiss these sophisticated computer
animations as nothing more than cartoons, but these "cartoons" are an
accepted form of evidence in a court of law.
Anthony Marsh
No, more misrepresentation. He does NOT hole the rod off to the side. He
holds it above the top of the shoulders. To show you that there is plenty
of room for a bullet to go ABOVE JFK's right shoulder and still hit
Connally in the right place. Hence no need for a SBT.
> even though the rod is held well below the top of the collar of both
> the shirt and jacket in the back, it extends downward through the knot
> of the tie where the bullet exited and to point of entrance on JBC's
> back. I don't know where people get the idea that the back wound was
> below the throat wound.
>
And Specter tries to duplicate the correct angle even with the rod ABOVE
Kennedy's shoulder. What would the angle be if the rod when through the
actual would BELOW the top of the shoulders? Would that angle point back
to the sniper's nest?
Anthony Marsh
As WHO alluded to? I never said the back wound connects to the throat
wound with a straight line on a downward trajectory. Quite the contrary.
> One can't get a downward trajectory at that point in the back and have it
> go upwards unless something deflected it up, which then would put 'UP' a
> further impossibility of going in that direction and hitting a JBC in the
> theoretical spot bantered about.
>
Yes, something deflected it up. T-1.
> CJ
>
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 18, 12:57 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 17, 11:46 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 17, 9:37 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 11:25 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> "curtjester1"<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>> news:e189abbb-4a40-4139...@s4g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Nov 13, 11:10 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2:47 pm, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 3:30 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 11:41 am, curtjester1<curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 12, 6:35 am, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Sean Smiley"<seansmileyran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>>>>>>> news:5bed1523-67c5-4aac...@37g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 8:50 am, Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 11:23 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your "PRIMARY witness (Helen Markham) said Tippit was shot at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1:06 or,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1:07.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By Oswald.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Patton to
>>>>>>>>>> Jefferson& down Jefferson. The other (according to Mrs. Markham&
We are saying that when someone like Dale Myers uses cartoons he can
misrepresent the data and most people will not see the difference.
>> Myers is one that used to believe
>> Oswald was on the second floor and not a shooter, so off the getgo, he
>> falls behind in credibility.
>
> As does anyone who doesn`t believe Oswald shot Kennedy.
>
>> The SBT loses at the onstart as all
>> these computer portrayals forget that the shirt depicts where the
>> wound was in the back and it NEVER aligns above the shirt collar
>> front.
>
> You are approaching it backwards, you need to align the shirt to
> the hole in Kennedy`s back as seen in the autopsy photo. Once you
> correct your approach the SBT theory works fine.
>
You keep changing it, but you never get it right.
tomnln
CJ
I QUOTED PAGE 92 OF THE WAREN REPORT.
tomnln
HOLE IN BACK OF JFK's JACKET WAS 5 3/8 INCHES BELOW TOP OF COLLAR
HOLE IN BACK OF JFK's SHIRT WS 5 3/4 INCHES BELOW TOP OF COLLAR.
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4ce5f756$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...