The Dented Bullet Shell ( Not fired that day ? )

[Raymond]

NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President

" ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was
provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges
which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fired
the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assassin
carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the
witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."

Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, one shot
hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the alleged
magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the president in
the head.

The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene
was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots. The
most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by
the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This led the
Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." WR 110-111.

But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examined by the
Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED... It
is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE and
fired only two shots ...." WR 111

Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record of
recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through Kennedy
and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.

This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little was
lost in its destructive journey.

A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from Connally's
arm.

Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a couple
of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: She
recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the body
of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews

In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was never
recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed more that
the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was described as
NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT
CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94

So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.

After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from
the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one
bullet or of two separate bullets."

If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that hit
JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.

I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.... and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.

Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard shots
before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit by a
fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHOT.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php

I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that would
assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I could not
rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the
occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barrel of
the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it would
be found.

Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.

As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the Immaculate
Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."

I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus the single
bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one and the
same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in the car
and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Parkland,
by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Dealey Plaza
because the car went on to the hospital.

Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.

And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning News, he
WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.

THE DENTED BULLET SHELL:
HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
Michael T. Griffith
2001

@All Rights Reserved
Second Edition
Revised on 4/26/2001

Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found next
to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22
November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a crucial
question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been used
to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been
more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
Bonar Menninger reports:

It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of
the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip
that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this
dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun
would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)

As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from which
the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not
have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth-
floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain
that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The single-
assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three
shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been used to
fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
than one gunman.

Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select
Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could have
been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it
could have been used to fire a bullet on the day of the assassination:

Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on
the rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in
that condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid
firing of the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the
exact same location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534).
(Case Closed, New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)

I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-
certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited
to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best
score of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert
witness on firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's
claim (all emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.
He will tell you anything to make a point. There were no shells dented
in that manner by the HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
book, Six Seconds in Dallas, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson
discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.
Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the
clip. . . .

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
empties dented like these???

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.
Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner

British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell
could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as
a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an
e-mail message Mills sent to me on this subject:

Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.

Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.

My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
the results were reproduced.

But the damage was exactly the same. It seems that when using a hull
that has previously been fired, the lip of the case expands slightly
and can catch on a lip below the barrel opening in the breech. This
can only happen with an empty case that has already been fired and
even then only occasionally.

This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63
was not fired from that window.

In a subsequent message, Mills elaborated on his statement that one of
the cartridge cases found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest could not
have been fired from the window:

One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's
nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing.
This could not have happened before a missile left the shell as the
dent would preclude the shell actually holding the bullet. It must
have occurred at some time after this particular shell was fired.

Several researchers have tried to duplicate the damage by standing on
the case, throwing it against walls, etc., but to no avail. The case
cannot be similarly damaged by loading a live round into the chamber
either, as it is protected and guided into the breech by the bullet
itself.

What I found, by accident, is that similar damage can be caused by
loading an empty case into the weapon. It appeared to me that the more
times this was attempted, the more likely the damage was to occur.
This led me to the apparent conclusion that unless the person in the
6th floor fired the weapon, ejected the shell, picked it up and then
reloaded it (a pointless activity, as I'm sure you will agree), this
particular case had been fired at some earlier time, then reloaded
empty, probably several times. I consider that this is what caused the
damage.

This left me wondering why (a) practice with an empty shell case? and
(b) why leave an extra case behind?

Question A: At first I thought it may be to practice with the weapon
but I guess that would be just as effective without a shell case in. I
now think it more likely that the empty case was fed through several
times in order that it could be matched (by scratch marks on its
surface) to the M/C, whether or not the original bullet was really
fired from that weapon.

Which brings me to Question B: As I said in my last letter, if you
plant a missile which is supposed to have come from the murder weapon,
you must have a shell casing to go with it at the murder scene. If
not, more missiles may turn up than cases found. Hence the dumped
case, whoever did it being unaware of the damage to its lip.

Dr. Michael Kurtz says there's no doubt that CE 543, i.e., the dented
shell, could not have fired a bullet on the day of the assassination,
and, moreover, that it could not have been fired from the rifle that
Oswald allegedly used:

The third cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 543, contained a dent in
the opening so large that it could not have held a bullet in it. . . .

In a letter to the Warren Commission of 2 June 1964, J. Edgar Hoover
noted that Commission Exhibit 543 (FBI Number C6), the case with the
dent, had "three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge case
which were not found [on the other casings]." The case, according to
Hoover, had also been loaded into and extracted from a weapon three
times. The only marks linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks
from the magazine follower. As noted above, Case 543 could not have
obtained the marks from the magazine follower on 22 November, since
the last round in the clip must have been the unfired one in the
chamber. Furthermore, Commission Exhibit 543 lacks the characteristic
indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle.

Dr. E. Forrest Chapman, forensic pathologist, who in 1973 was given
access to the assassination materials in the National Archives, noted
that Case 543 was probably "dry loaded" into a rifle. Since the dent
was too large for the case to have contained a bullet on 22 November,
it was never fired from Oswald's rifle. The empty case, however, for
some unknown reason cold have been loaded into a rifle, the trigger
pulled, and the bolt operated. Dr. Chapman discovered this phenomenon
through experiments of his own.

Dr. Chapman also noted that Case 543 had a deeper and more concave
indentation on its base, at the primer, where the firing pin strikes
the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics. The FBI also
reproduced the effect. Commission Exhibit 557 is a test cartridge
case, fired empty from Oswald's rifle by the FBI for ballistics
comparison purposes. It, too, contains the dent in the lip and deep
primer impression similar to Case 543.

Thus, the evidence proves conclusively that Commission Exhibit 543
could not have been fired from Oswald's rifle. . . . (Crime of the
Century, Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1982, pp. 50-51,
emphasis added)

Based on Donahue's and Mills' and Kurtz's research, the dented shell
would appear to be hard evidence that more than one gunman fired at
President Kennedy, and hence that there was a conspiracy. However, a
few lone-gunman theorists insist they have similarly dented Carcano
shells and that they were able to use those shells to fire bullets. To
my knowledge, these single-assassin theorists did not videotape their
experiments, so there is no proof of their claims. The HSCA
experiments, which supposedly produced a number of similarly dented
shells that were able to fire bullets, weren't filmed, either.

-------------------------------------------------------
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master’s degree in
Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate
in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a
Bachelor’s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two
Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the
Air Force. He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies
and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College. He is a
graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in
Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training
School in San Angelo, Texas. In addition, he has completed Advanced
Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro
Institute in London, England. He is the author of five books on
Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready
Reply, and One Lord, One Faith. He is also the author of a book on
the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996).

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jan 2012 17:42:32 -0500, Raymond <Bluer...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
>a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
>Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
>the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
>and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
>

Beautiful!

.John

--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jan 2012 17:42:32 -0500, Raymond <Bluer...@aol.com> wrote:

>

Do you folks *ever* quit recycling discredited factoids?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/firearms_hsca.htm#155

[John Blubaugh]

On Jan 2, 5:49 pm, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:

Do you?


JB

[Canuck]

> of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews

>
>   In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
> wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was never
> recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed more that
> the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was described as
> NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT
> CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
>
>   So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
> removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
>
>   After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
> According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
> respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
> area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
> fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from
> the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one
> bullet or of two separate bullets."
>
>   If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
> almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that hit
> JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.
>
>   I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
> would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.... and
> the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
>
>   Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard shots
> before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit by a

> fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHOT.http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php

The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
Nov. 22.

As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
Whitmey

[Anthony Marsh]

>> ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master�s degree in

>> Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate
>> in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a

>> Bachelor�s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two

>> Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the
>> Air Force. He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies
>> and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College. He is a
>> graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in
>> Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training
>> School in San Angelo, Texas. In addition, he has completed Advanced
>> Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro
>> Institute in London, England. He is the author of five books on
>> Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready
>> Reply, and One Lord, One Faith. He is also the author of a book on
>> the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996).
>
> The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
> the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
> A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
> Nov. 22.
>
> As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
> ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
> the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
> effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
> Whitmey
>

All of this is nonsense. No one ever suggested that the cartridge could
hold a bullet after the lip had been dented. The factory would not have
been able to seat the bullet because of the dent. The dent can ONLY
happen after the round is fired. I believe it happened because the
shooter was trying to fire as quickly as possible and tried to reload
too quickly and did not pull the bolt back far enough to eject the shell
and not noticing that tried to jam the bolt forward to load the next
shell but instead jammed the empty cartridge against the mouth of the
chamber.
I chided Tink about looking for silly solutions.
This is typical of that type of rifle and has happened often for other
shooters.

[Raymond]

Apparently LHO bought more ammo thatn four rounds used in the coup
since some testimony implied that he practiced firing the MC. And
Marina testified that " he shot at leaves in the park. " ?????

Right Peter.. "the FBI, after an extensive effort, could not determine

where it had been purchased."

No doubt the reason that Lee did not buy the ammunition from Kleins
was several:

Some researchers wondered why LHO did not buy his ammo from Klein's.
It could be that Klein's policy warned buyers that "Hand gun orders,
and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges collect. " Surely,
Lee knew that he could get ammo in Dallas without the express shipping
and the charges. Also. I also feel sure that Lee knew about the aging
Italian ammo and the misfires, and also knew about the better Western
ammo.

The Italian ammo was all military loaded and not desired by hunters,
so many dealers reloaded the shells with soft point projectiles.

The Italian MC ammo came in preloaded clips. This ammo quickly
disappeared and these casings could not be reloaded because all ammo,
other than American, used the Berdan primer. All Western had the
American Boxer primer. Because so many MCs were sold in America,
there was a need for Carcano rounds, and since none was being
manufactured, a company in Sweden, NORMA by name, began selling 6.5 mm
ammo to Carcano owners.

The NORMA ammo contained a "soft-point" bullet and it used the Boxer
primer, so the consumer could do his own reloading. The round is
identifiable by the Norma name on the bottom of the shell rim, along
with the 6.5 mm marking

'Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of
ignorance.'
--- Robert Quillen

Friend to the news groups, WALT, claimed that the MC could not be
used as a single shot weapon.

Wrong Walt. It is possible to use the MC as a single shot weapon.

Mr. Eisenberg.
Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?
Mr. Frazier.
Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C. We examine ammunition
of various types to identify it as to its caliber, its specific
designation, and the type or types of weapons in which it can be
fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine whether or not
• they were fired from a particular weapon and make comparisons of
cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether or not they
were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining whether or not
they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular weapon. That
training course lasted forapproximately 1 year. However, of course,
the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and
continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining
firearms. Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have
had.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Could you estimate the number of examinations you have made of
firearms to identify the firearms?
Mr. Frazier.
Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made in the
neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000.
Mr. Mccloy.
Have you written any articles on this subject?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes. I have predated an article for the "FBI Law Enforcement
Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as a reprint
and provided to any organization or person interested in the general
field of firearms identification.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page391.php


Mr. Mccloy.
Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes; you can.
Mr. Mccloy.
What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one
shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with
the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. McCloy.
The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php

MC Ammo, Clips and Primers

After WWII, Albania was the only European nation to go Communist
without having been invaded by the Soviet Union. It was also Europe's
poorest country and the only one with a Muslim majority. As a result,
it became part of the American policy to assist Italy in the
destruction of the Albanian government. Italy had occupied Albania
throughout WWII.

On March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-
Western Division of Olin, told the FBI that the Western Cartridge
Company had manufactured a quantity of 6.5 mm Mannlicher Carcano
ammunition for the Italian Government during WWII." At the end of the
war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type
ammunition, was sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and
was eventually distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers,
and individual purchasers." (CE.No.2694)

By the time that the US decided to overthrow the Hoxha government,
there was very little Italian ammo for MC's left in Italy, so Western
was contracted to supply the necessary ammo. When the attempt failed,
the ammo was put into storage . It reappeared when the plans were in
progress to invade Cuba. Both the surplus rifles and Italian ammo were
used as well as some of the Western ammo.

John Masen, owner of Masen's Gun Shop, in Dallas, bought 10 boxes of
Western ammo from John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, also in
Dallas. He sold the 10 boxes to individuals. All of this ammo had a
military load. Later, in the summer of 1963, he bought 10 more boxes
of Western from Brinegar. Since this ammo was used mostly for deer
hunting, he "pulled" the bullets in the last batch and reloaded it
with a hunting type bullet (lead nose). Brinegar testified that "the
6.5 mm rifle was rather common in the Dallas area and he felt that the
larger gun dealers, pawn shops, sporting goods, and H.L.Green Company
Stores would have handled the 6.5 mm MC Western ammo, as he recalled
seeing ads for this 6.5 western ammo."
( CE Ex. No. 2694.)

Al Yeargan, who was manager of the fourth floor Gun Dept. , at
Green's, testified that he sold both the rifle and the Italian ammo,
but never did sell any of the Western ammo.

I also often wondered why LHO did not buy his 6.5 ammo from Klein's.
I believe that it was because of the warning in the coupon itself, and
elsewhere in the full page Klein's ad
"Handgun orders, and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges
collect."

So, even if Lee had ordered ammo, at the same time he ordered the
rifle, the items would have been shipped separately. Hand guns and
ammunition were not shipped via U.S. Mail. This is why Seaport Traders
shipped LHOs 38 to Railway Express on Houston Street. All the ads in
the gun magazines advised the customer of that fact.
Notes on specific shippers:

Shipping Your Firearm
US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifle or shotgun by US Mail.
Unlicensed persons cannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal
regulations allow the Post Office to open your package for inspection.
Ammunition cannot be shipped by US Mail. You can search the US Post
Offer Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding
firearms and ammunition.

FedEx: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight
service. Ammunition must be shipped as dangerous goods.

UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles
and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept
shipments of ammunition. UPS does not allow shipment of firearms FROM
an unlicensed person (even to an FFL), unless the stated reason for
the firearm shipment is for repair or modifications.

Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne
and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments

FROM UPS WEB SITE:
You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day
Air Early A.M. , UPS Next Day Air , or UPS Next Day Air Saver services
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment
at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS SonicAir service, at locations of The UPS
Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services.
When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS,
you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon
delivery. Hub ... also known as UPS Customer Centers are staffed
shipping centers located on-site at UPS operating facilities
nationwide, equipped to assist you with any UPS international, air or
ground package shipment.
FIND LOCATIONS

Note: Anthony Marsh reminded me that these FED X regulations may not
have been the law in 1963 and he is correct.

I have the postal regulations for the period of 1963 but will take
some time to digest the regulations. Will get to later and answer
then. I think they have CHANGED LITTLE regarding HAND GUNS and
ammunition Big time changes in RIFLES and other military type
ordnance resulted from political assassinations

The company was founded as Federal Express in 1972 by U.S. Marine Fred
Smith in Little Rock, Arkansas, but moved to Memphis, Tennessee in
1973 after Little Rock airport officials would not agree to provide
facilities for the fledgling airline. The name was chosen to symbolize
a national marketplace, and help in obtaining government contracts.
The company officially began operations on April 17, 1973, utilizing a
network of 14 Dassault Falcon 20s which connected 25 U.S. cities

UPS:
In 1907, 19-year-old Jim Casey founded the American Messenger Company
in Seattle, Washington with $100 borrowed from a friend. In 1913, Jim
Casey and Evert McCabe agreed to merge. Merchants Parcel Delivery was
formed and focused on packages. In 1919, the company expanded beyond
Seattle and changed their name to United Parcel Service.

1913: The first delivery car appeared, a Model T Ford.

FROM FEDEX WEB SITE:
Firearms FedEx Express can only accept and deliver firearms between
areas served in the U.S. under the following conditions: (1) you agree
to tender shipments of firearms to us only when either the shipper or
recipient is a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed
dealer or licensed collector and is not prohibited from making such
shipments by local, state or federal regulations;

(2) the shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by
applicable state law.

Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx
cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. or with a signature release.
Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the
shipment to FedEx is required to notify the FedEx employee who accepts
the package that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the
package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the
package contains a firearm. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a
FedEx Express Drop Box.

You also agree not to ship firearms loaded or with ammunition in the
same package. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped
separately as dangerous goods. The shipper and recipient are required
to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws,
including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance. FIND
LOCATIONS (Fedex Staffed ONLY)

SEE The Marketing of a Weapon
BY GARY NIVAGGI
All from the pages of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN approx. 250 pg
This catalog contains material gathered from the pages of "AMERICAN
RIFLEMAN " from 1958-1964.

PART I: Klein's Sporting Goods
PART II: Other Distributors and Dealers
PART III: Articles, questions, etc

Also Includes Ad used by Harvey Lee Oswald to purchase 6.5 mm Italian
Carbine Mannlicher-Carcano used in JFK assassination AND great
information on rifle clips, powder, cartridges, etc.

The Warren Commission said:
Revolver Traced to Oswald

Claim:

FBI investigation determined that the .38 Special Smith and Wesson
revolver, serial number V510210, taken from Lee Harvey Oswald WAS
SHIPPED on March 20, 1963, from George Rose and Company, Incorporated,
Los Angeles, California, to A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915,
Dallas, Texas. The cost of the weapon was $29.95. Examination by the
FBI Laboratory determined that the writing on the mail order coupon
used in the purchase of this weapon was written by Lee Harvey Oswald

The handgun was not shipped to PO Box 2915, Dallas Texas. Heinz W.
Michaelis, office manager of both George Rose & Co., Inc.,.... and
Seaport Traders, Inc., identified their records, which showed that a ".
38 S and W Special two-inch Commando, serial number V510210" was
shipped on March 20, 1963, to A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915,
Dallas, Tex.

The invoice was prepared on March 13, 1963; the revolver was actually
shipped on March 20 by Railway Express. The balance due on the
purchase was $19.95.

Oswald had to cross town to pick up his handgun at the Railway Express
Office.

Michaelis furnished the shipping copy of the invoice, and the RAILWAY
EXPRESS AGENCY shipping documents, showing that $19.95, plus $1.27
shipping charge, had been collected from the consignee, Hidell. (See
Michaelis Exhibits Nos. 2, 4, 5, p. 173.) Handwriting experts, Alwyn
Cole of the Treasury Department and James C. Cadigan of the FBI,
testified before the Commission that the writing on the coupon was
Oswald's. The signature of the witness, D. F. Drittal, who attested
that the fictitious Hidell was an American citizen and had not been
convicted of a felony, was also in Oswald's handwriting.

In 1968, after five years of debate on firearms control, Congress
passed a Gun Control Act designed to "provide support to Federal,
State, and local law enforcement officials in their fight against
crime and violence."[1] This paper reports on an effort to study the
impact of the Gun Control Act on the problems that prompted its
passage. The study is of possible interest for two reasons.

First, it is an attempt to increase our rather modest knowledge of the
effects of governmental efforts to control firearms violence. In
recent years the rate of gun violence in the United States has managed
to grow to alarming proportions without the benefit of sustained
academic attention.[2] The 1968 Act--the only major change in federal
policy since 1938¾seems a natural place to look for clues about the
effects of gun controls. And the need for knowledge in this area seems
obvious, inasmuch as controversy is rampant and new federal
legislative proposals are almost a weekly Washington event.

Second, the study is an effort to gain some perspective on the
difficulties [Page 134] and promise of empirical studies of "legal
impact." Over the past few years, studies attempting to assess the
impact of legislation have begun to occupy an important place in law-
related scholarship.[3] Diverse both in subject matter[4] and
methodology, these studies are motivated by the hope that they will
build toward a deeper understanding of law as an instrument of social
control.[5]

http://www.saf.org/lawreviews/zimring68.htm

[Bill Clarke]

In article <a3bc23c8-7cb4-44bd...@k29g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond says...

>
>
>NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>
> " ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was
>provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges
>which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fired
>the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assassin
>carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the
>witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."
>
>Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, one shot
>hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the alleged
>magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the president in
>the head.
>
> The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses at the scene
>was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots. The
>most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by
>the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This led the
>Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." WR 110-111.
>
> But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examined by the
>Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED... It
>is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE and
>fired only two shots ...." WR 111

Possible but not probable. I don?t think a Marine with weapons training
would do that. It is not a good practice to leave the brass in the
chamber.

That is correct. Marsh often argues that only a jammed rifle would
produce this bent lip but other things can cause a dented lip. I have
seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis that
furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.

Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/2/2012 5:46 PM, John McAdams wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2012 17:42:32 -0500, Raymond<Bluer...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a shot from
>> a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy
>> Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away from
>> the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the president
>> and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
>>
>
> Beautiful!
>

He also had a theory about a railroad torpedo.
But the acoustical evidence proves that a rifle was fired at the limousine.

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jan 2012 21:06:12 -0500, John Blubaugh <jblu...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Sashay(tm)!

You can't *bear* to face the fact that the "dented casing" factoid
proves nothing. The MC rifle would routinely dent the casings of
about 1/3 of the rounds it fired as they were ejected.

You folks will never get anywhere, because you can't let go of the
factoids.

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jan 2012 21:06:47 -0500, Canuck <prwh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jan 2, 2:42�pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>>
>

>The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
>the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
>A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
>Nov. 22.
>

No, the photos show three spend cartridges.

You have posted a factoid, Peter.

>As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
>ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
>the rifle. As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
>effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
>Whitmey

So what?

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Sandy McCroskey]

Hmm. McAdams provided a link to back up his assertion.
Where's something to support yours?
McAdams counters Griffith with the report of the Firearms Panel...

<quote on>

Would the dent on the mouth of CE 543, one of the three expended cartridge
cases found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository,
prevent the bullet from being fired in the CE 139 Mannlicher-Careano
rifle, or any other rifle? Can it be determined whether these cartridge
cases had been chambered on more than one occasion?

(155) Figure 8B shows a dent on the mouth of the CE 543 cartridge case
which Josiah Thompson, a critic of the Warren Commission, said would
prevent CE 543 from being fired in any rifle.(79)

(156) It is the opinion of the panel that the dent on the mouth of the CE
543 cartridge case was produced when the cartridge case was ejected from
the rifle. This condition was duplicated during test-firing of the CE 139
rifle by the panel. (See fig. 2.) The dent had nothing to do with loading
the bullet during the manufacturing process, nor is it the type of
deformation expected if the case were stepped on. </quote off>

...and it's not a "factoid" that this panel reported thusly, it's a fact
that it did. So what do have you can put up against the panel's findings?
You're bluffing. I call.

Now, I wonder if you even noticed that the other person Griffith cites
besides Josiah Thompson is the proponent of a most novel theory, which
says that the fatal shot to Kennedy came from a Secret Service man's
misfire (Howard Donahue, "Mortal Theory"). Or do you endorse that theory
yourself?

/sm

[Sandy McCroskey]

Oops, my error! (not my theory)
"Mortal Theory."
/sm

[Anthony Marsh]

I wonder if you even noticed that I was the one who first chastised Tink
and demonstrated how it happens when one tries to reload too quickly?

[Anthony Marsh]

The kooks claim that Oswald never had a clip.

> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

Naughty, naughty. You are not supposed to admit simple facts like that.
When I say that your buddies call me a kook and deny it.
You're fired. Turn in your decoder ring.

[Anthony Marsh]

Apples and oranges. Oswald was trained on an M1 and it automatically
ejects the cartridge. The Mannlicher-Carcano is a bolt action and if you
are in a hurry you might forget and not eject the empty. It doesn't hurt a
piece of junk like his rifle.

I never said that. I said that it is often what causes that type of dent.

> seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis that
> furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.
>

No, she didn't and she knows nothing about rifles.

> Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

>>> ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master?s degree in

>>> Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate
>>> in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a

>>> Bachelor?s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two

So what?

> No doubt the reason that Lee did not buy the ammunition from Kleins
> was several:
>
> Some researchers wondered why LHO did not buy his ammo from Klein's.
> It could be that Klein's policy warned buyers that "Hand gun orders,
> and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges collect. " Surely,
> Lee knew that he could get ammo in Dallas without the express shipping
> and the charges. Also. I also feel sure that Lee knew about the aging
> Italian ammo and the misfires, and also knew about the better Western
> ammo.
>

Possibly. He was that cheap.
I doubt that Oswald knew for sure the ammo Klein's was selling was old
original WWII SMI. But the rifle was not popular enough then that most
people knew about the unreliable SMI ammo.

> The Italian ammo was all military loaded and not desired by hunters,
> so many dealers reloaded the shells with soft point projectiles.
>

But the WCC ammo was almost exactly the same design of ball bullets.

> The Italian MC ammo came in preloaded clips. This ammo quickly
> disappeared and these casings could not be reloaded because all ammo,
> other than American, used the Berdan primer. All Western had the
> American Boxer primer. Because so many MCs were sold in America,
> there was a need for Carcano rounds, and since none was being
> manufactured, a company in Sweden, NORMA by name, began selling 6.5 mm
> ammo to Carcano owners.
>
> The NORMA ammo contained a "soft-point" bullet and it used the Boxer
> primer, so the consumer could do his own reloading. The round is
> identifiable by the Norma name on the bottom of the shell rim, along
> with the 6.5 mm marking
>

Norma also produced BALL ammo and I have several rounds.

> 'Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of
> ignorance.'
> --- Robert Quillen
>
> Friend to the news groups, WALT, claimed that the MC could not be
> used as a single shot weapon.
>
> Wrong Walt. It is possible to use the MC as a single shot weapon.
>
> Mr. Eisenberg.
> Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?
> Mr. Frazier.
> Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
> assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C. We examine ammunition
> of various types to identify it as to its caliber, its specific
> designation, and the type or types of weapons in which it can be
> fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine whether or not

> ? they were fired from a particular weapon and make comparisons of

Not easily. In fact this problem is what almost ended the contract with
Riva because so many Americans complained that their rifles did not work
and Riva had to show them that a clip MUST be used to load it properly.

But he was wrong.
This particular ammo was made specifically and only in 1954 to fulfill a
DoD one-time contract for 4 million rounds.

> war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type
> ammunition, was sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and
> was eventually distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers,
> and individual purchasers." (CE.No.2694)
>

2 million.

> By the time that the US decided to overthrow the Hoxha government,
> there was very little Italian ammo for MC's left in Italy, so Western
> was contracted to supply the necessary ammo. When the attempt failed,
> the ammo was put into storage . It reappeared when the plans were in
> progress to invade Cuba. Both the surplus rifles and Italian ammo were
> used as well as some of the Western ammo.
>

Fairy Tale.
Maybe to disguise the originally intended client state.

> John Masen, owner of Masen's Gun Shop, in Dallas, bought 10 boxes of
> Western ammo from John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, also in
> Dallas. He sold the 10 boxes to individuals. All of this ammo had a
> military load. Later, in the summer of 1963, he bought 10 more boxes
> of Western from Brinegar. Since this ammo was used mostly for deer
> hunting, he "pulled" the bullets in the last batch and reloaded it
> with a hunting type bullet (lead nose). Brinegar testified that "the
> 6.5 mm rifle was rather common in the Dallas area and he felt that the
> larger gun dealers, pawn shops, sporting goods, and H.L.Green Company
> Stores would have handled the 6.5 mm MC Western ammo, as he recalled
> seeing ads for this 6.5 western ammo."
> ( CE Ex. No. 2694.)
>
> Al Yeargan, who was manager of the fourth floor Gun Dept. , at
> Green's, testified that he sold both the rifle and the Italian ammo,
> but never did sell any of the Western ammo.
>

So where is that ammo now?
It is quite rare.

> Michaelis, office manager of both George Rose& Co., Inc.,.... and

> policy since 1938?seems a natural place to look for clues about the

[Jason Burke]

That would be the acoustical evidence that was recorded about, oh, a
minute after the assassination?

[Canuck]

On Jan 3, 9:05 am, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:

> On 2 Jan 2012 21:06:47 -0500, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 2, 2:42 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>
> >The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
> >the sixth floor.  One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
> >A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
> >Nov. 22.
>
> No, the photos show three spend cartridges.
>
> You have posted a factoid, Peter.
>

I recall when looking at the photos in the Warren volumes that one of
them showed only two spent shells, while the other showed three. And
the Dallas inventory records listed only two!!! - Peter R. Whitmey

> >As for the M-C clip, Oswald decided against purchasing 100 rounds of
> >ammunition, which came with a free clip, and, yet, a clip was attached to
> >the rifle.  As for the ammunition used, the FBI, after an extensive
> >effort, could not determine where it had been purchased. - Peter R.
> >Whitmey
>
> So what?
>
> .John
> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

How was the clip obtained if Oswald chose not to purchase 100 rounds
of ammo.?

- Peter R. Whitmey

[Anthony Marsh]

At a local store.
BTW the SMI ammo was sold in blocks of 108 rounds, multiples of 6.
6 bullets in each clip. Soldiers in the field do not have time in the
heat of the battle to take the bullets out one by one and load them into
the clips. You just grab a clip holding 6 bullets and go.

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f03...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dented
lips. Good for you. However this fact does cast a cloud on your theory
that the gun jammed.

>> seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis that
>> furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.
>>
>
>No, she didn't and she knows nothing about rifles.

Someone did. I believe it was Jean. Of course one does not have to be a
rifle expert to look up a reference on rifles. Anyone could do it.

Bill Clarke

[Canuck]

Tony, did the FBI actually confirm that the clip was purchased at a
local store, or did they possibly assume that it came with the rifle?
- prw

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/4/2012 4:45 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f03...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Certain people here would not even know where to begin to look.
Some people here can't even figure out how to do a search on Google.

[Anthony Marsh]

No one assumed it came with the rifle, because those clips were only
included with the ammo, not with the rifle. No one knows where he got the
clip. I think he bought it at a local store. I don't think he'd want to
spend hundreds of dollars traveling all around the country to buy
something for a couple of bucks.

And I could not find any mail order coupon to buy just a clip by itself.
What I find cute is when the kooks say he loaded each bullet by hand
because he didn't have a clip.

[Jean Davison]

On Jan 5, 6:03 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 1/4/2012 4:45 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article<4f038...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

>
> >> On 1/3/2012 10:58 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:

> >>> In article<a3bc23c8-7cb4-44bd-b646-58056ef7f...@k29g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

"We know it jammed because of the dented lip." -- Anthony
Marsh, 2/28/11, post 38 here:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/b2b6472a1307799a/8234ad438ae907b9?hl=en&q=%22we+know+it+jammed+because%22+author:anthony+author:marsh

>
> > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dented
> > lips. Good for you.  However this fact does cast a cloud on your theory
> > that the gun jammed.
>
> >>> seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis that
> >>> furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.
>
> >> No, she didn't and she knows nothing about rifles.

Yes, I did. For instance, HSCA, vol. I, 454:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0229b.htm

I don't know a lot about rifles, but I can read.

>
> > Someone did.  I believe it was Jean.  Of course one does not have to be a
> > rifle expert to look up a reference on rifles.  Anyone could do it.
>
> > Bill Clarke
>
> Certain people here would not even know where to begin to look.
> Some people here can't even figure out how to do a search on Google.

Jean

[Bill Clarke]

In article <9d767478-12d2-4cb7...@b32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Jean Davison says...

>
>On Jan 5, 6:03=A0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 1/4/2012 4:45 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > In article<4f038...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>
>> >> On 1/3/2012 10:58 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:

>> >>> In article<a3bc23c8-7cb4-44bd-b646-58056ef7f...@k29g2000vbl.googlegro=

>ups.com>,
>> >>> Raymond says...
>>
>> >>>> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0 " ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of=
> shots was
>> >>>> provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridge=
>s
>> >>>> which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that fi=

>red
>> >>>> the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assassin

>> >>>> carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with t=

>he
>> >>>> witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."
>>

>> >>>> Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, one =

>shot
>> >>>> hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the alleged

>> >>>> magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the presiden=
>t in
>> >>>> the head.
>>
>> >>>> =A0 =A0The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses a=
>t the scene
>> >>>> was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shots.=
> The
>> >>>> most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provide=
>d by
>> >>>> the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This led =
>the
>> >>>> Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." =A0WR 110-11=
>1.
>>
>> >>>> =A0 =A0But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examin=
>ed by the
>> >>>> Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED=
>... It
>> >>>> is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE an=

>d
>> >>>> fired only two shots ...." WR 111
>>

>> >>> Possible but not probable. =A0I don?t think a Marine with weapons tra=
>ining
>> >>> would do that. =A0It is not a good practice to leave the brass in the

>> >>> chamber.
>>
>> >> Apples and oranges. Oswald was trained on an M1 and it automatically

>> >> ejects the cartridge. The Mannlicher-Carcano is a bolt action and if y=
>ou
>> >> are in a hurry you might forget and not eject the empty. It doesn't hu=

>rt a
>> >> piece of junk like his rifle.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is n=
>o record of
>> >>>> recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through Ken=
>nedy
>> >>>> and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and end=
>ed up
>> >>>> at Parkland Hospital.
>>
>> >>>> =A0 =A0This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the mot=
>orcade.
>> >>>> When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little =

>was
>> >>>> lost in its destructive journey.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from C=
>onnally's
>> >>>> arm.
>>
>> >>>> =A0 =A0Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four=
> or five
>> >>>> fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a c=
>ouple
>> >>>> of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: Sh=
>e
>> >>>> recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the =

>body
>> >>>> of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...
>> >>>>http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally'=
>s leg
>> >>>> wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was n=
>ever
>> >>>> recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed mor=
>e that
>> >>>> the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was describe=
>d as
>> >>>> NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound WAS=

> NOT
>> >>>> CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projecti=

>le that
>> >>>> removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincol=

>n.
>> >>>> According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
>> >>>> respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
>> >>>> area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two

>> >>>> fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine =
>from
>> >>>> the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of=

> one
>> >>>> bullet or of two separate bullets."
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at P=
>arkland
>> >>>> almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet that=

> hit
>> >>>> JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the abov=
>e fragments
>> >>>> would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,...=

>. and
>> >>>> the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he =
>heard shots
>> >>>> before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit b=
>y a
>> >>>> fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST SHO=
>T.
>> >>>>http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php
>>
>> >>>> I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. =A0If I were th=
>e
>> >>>> master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that wo=
>uld
>> >>>> assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I could =

>not
>> >>>> rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the

>> >>>> occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barrel=
> of
>> >>>> the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it w=

>ould
>> >>>> be found.
>>
>> >>>> Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the Im=

>maculate
>> >>>> Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
>>

>> >>>> =A0 =A0I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus the=
> single
>> >>>> bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one and=
> the
>> >>>> same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in the=
> car
>> >>>> and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Parkl=
>and,
>> >>>> by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Dealey =

>Plaza
>> >>>> because the car went on to the hospital.
>>

>> >>>> Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a sho=

>t from
>> >>>> a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Grassy

>> >>>> Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities away=
> from
>> >>>> the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the pre=

>sident
>> >>>> and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
>>

>> >>>> And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning News=

>, he
>> >>>> WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.
>>
>> >>>> THE DENTED BULLET SHELL:
>> >>>> HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
>> >>>> Michael T. Griffith
>> >>>> 2001
>>
>> >>>> @All Rights Reserved
>> >>>> Second Edition
>> >>>> Revised on 4/26/2001
>>

>> >>>> Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found nex=

>t
>> >>>> to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
>> >>>> Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22
>> >>>> November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a crucial

>> >>>> question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been use=

>d
>> >>>> to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have been
>> >>>> more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
>> >>>> Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
>> >>>> Bonar Menninger reports:
>>

>> >>>> It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor =
>of
>> >>>> the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and show=
>ed
>> >>>> numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano cli=
>p
>> >>>> that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe th=

>is
>> >>>> dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun
>> >>>> would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
>> >>>> Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)
>>

>> >>>> As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from whi=

>ch
>> >>>> the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not
>> >>>> have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth-
>> >>>> floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain

>> >>>> that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The singl=

>e-
>> >>>> assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three

>> >>>> shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been used =

>to
>> >>>> fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
>> >>>> than one gunman.
>>
>> >>>> Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select

>> >>>> Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could hav=

>e
>> >>>> been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it

>> >>>> could have been used to fire a bullet on the day of the assassinatio=
>n:
>>
>> >>> That is correct. =A0Marsh often argues that only a jammed rifle would
>> >>> produce this bent lip but other things can cause a dented lip. =A0I have

>>
>> >> I never said that. I said that it is often what causes that type of dent.
>
> "We know it jammed because of the dented lip." -- Anthony
>Marsh, 2/28/11, post 38 here:
>

>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/b2b6=
>472a1307799a/8234ad438ae907b9?hl=3Den&q=3D%22we+know+it+jammed+because%22+a=

>uthor:anthony+author:marsh
>
>
>>
>> > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dented

>> > lips. Good for you. =A0However this fact does cast a cloud on your theo=

>ry
>> > that the gun jammed.
>>

>> >>> seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis t=

>hat
>> >>> furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.
>>
>> >> No, she didn't and she knows nothing about rifles.
>
> Yes, I did. For instance, HSCA, vol. I, 454:
>

>http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_V=

>ol1_0229b.htm
>
> I don't know a lot about rifles, but I can read.

Thank you very much.

Bill Clarke

[Jean Davison]

On Jan 5, 4:42 pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <9d767478-12d2-4cb7-a994-78b7af85d...@b32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> Jean Davison says...
>
> <snip>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/threa...
> >472a1307799a/8234ad438ae907b9?hl=3Den&q=3D%22we+know+it+jammed+because%22+­a=

> >uthor:anthony+author:marsh
>
> >> > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dented
> >> > lips. Good for you. =A0However this fact does cast a cloud on your theo=
> >ry
> >> > that the gun jammed.
>
> >> >>> seen this myself numerous occasions and I believe it was Jean Davis t=
> >hat
> >> >>> furnished Marsh a reference on the ejector causing this bent lip.
>
> >> >> No, she didn't and she knows nothing about rifles.
>
> >            Yes, I did.  For instance, HSCA, vol. I, 454:
>

> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/...

> >ol1_0229b.htm
>
> >             I don't know a lot about rifles, but I can read.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Bill Clarke

You're very welcome, Bill.
Jean

[Raymond]

> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/threa...

>
>
>
>
>
> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dented
> > > lips. Good for you.  However this fact does cast a cloud on your theory
> > > that the gun jammed.

THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION

It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the

barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case

that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.

Michael T. Griffith
1997
@All Rights Reserved

Could the dented shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found next to the

sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository

Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a missile on the day of the
assassination? According to ballistics and firearms expert Howard
Donahue, the answer is no, as Bonar Menninger reports:

It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of
the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip
that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this
dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun

would not have functioned properly. (MORTAL ERROR, New York: St.

Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)

This, of course, is a crucial issue, for if one of the shells could
not have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, this would
mean the sixth-floor gunman could have only fired two shots (unless
there was a fourth shell that was never found, which is extremely
unlikely). In other words, if the dented shell could not have been

used to fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been

another gunman.

However, Gerald Posner, author of the book CASE CLOSED, says the HSCA
proved the shell could have been used to fire a bullet:

Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on
the rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in
that condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid
firing of the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the
exact same location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534).

(CASE CLOSED, New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)

I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue is a court-
certified firearms expert and an world-class marksman. He was invited

to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best

score of the simulation. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's

claim (all emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.

He will tell you anything to make a point. There were NO SHELLS DENTED
IN THAT MANNER BY THE HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
book, SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson

discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.
Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the clip.

Two shots only from Oswald? The following info is mostly from SIX
SECONDS IN DALLAS:

1. No one INSIDE the TSBD heard more than two shots.

2. Howard Brennan, on the sidewalk UNDERNEATH the 6th floor window,
heard only two shots.

3. The three men DIRECTLY under the window at first heard only two
shots but eventually changed their testimony.

4. The last two shots were fired so closely together they could never
have been fired from a Carcano. If anyone tells you it is possible,
then they have never fired a Carcano.

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
empties dented like these???

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.

Howard Donahue Firearms Examiner

British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell
could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as
a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an
e-mail message Mills sent to me on this subject:

Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.

Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.

My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
the results were reproduced. But the damage was exactly the same. It
seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the lip
of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the barrel

opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case that

has already been fired and even then only occasionally.

This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63

was NOT fired from that window.

The dented shell is hard evidence that more than one gunman fired at

President Kennedy, and hence that there was a conspiracy.

----------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith is a two-time graduate of the

Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S.

Air Force Technical Training School in San Angelo, Texas. He is also
the author of four books on Mormonism and ancient texts. His articles
on the JFK assassination have appeared in DATELINE: DALLAS, DALLAS
'63, THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO, and THE ASSASSINATION CHRONICLES.
Additionally, he is the author of the book COMPELLING EVIDENCE: A NEW
LOOK AT THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY (Grand Prairie, TX: JFK-
Lancer Productions and Publications, 1996).

COMPELLING EVIDENCE can be ordered from JFK-Lancer Productions via e-
mail at jfkl...@flash.net.

Michael T. Griffith
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Dented_shell.html

[Jean]

Sorry, Raymond, but Donahue and Griffith are simply wrong about
this. The HSCA firearms panel *did* produce a dent when shells were
ejected from the M-C during rapid firing. Here is part of the testimony:

QUOTE:

Mr. CHAMPAGNE. No, sir; this is not a dent that would have been
in
the cartridge case during the loading process.
Mr. MCDONALD. Could it have occurred during the ejection process?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes; during the testing of the weapon we found that one
of the tests that were fired and ejected from the weapon by the panelists
also included a cartridge case with a similar information of the mouth of
the cartridge case.
Mr. MCDONALD. In other words.
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. We also examined Federal tests. Of two tests that we
examined, one of them also had an indented mouth.
Mr. MCDONALD. Are you saying then when your panel test fired CE-139,
out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented mouth?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, that occurred during the ejection process in
firing the weapon. If I may.
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, please.
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. The ejection is that process whereby the bolt handle is
moved to the rear to eject the expended cartridge case, ejecting the
cartridge case out of the weapon.
Mr. MCDONALD. Now, when you tested the rifle, the panel tested the
rifle, of your panel members, who ejected the shell or cartridge case that
came out with the dent?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Mr. Lutz.
Mr. MCDONALD. Would Mr. Lutz please come forward and demonstrate to us
how you ejected to cause a dent in the test cartridge case.
Mr. LUTZ. The particular amount of force that I used to extract and
eject the cartridge case from the weapon was much in the manner that I
would consider to be employed during an attempt to rapidly fire the
firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being closed and then with
considerable speed and pressure being applied, opening it and pulling the
bolt to the rear and holding it to my side, and in a manner very rapidly,
kicking the cartridge back and ejecting the cartridge and causing it fall
to the floor.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt forward, the
cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing tube holding the bolt
handle and then pulling it back with a violent move duplicating what I
deemed to be a rapid sequence of firing, operating the handle to rapidly
fire the firearm.
Mr. MCDONALD. Thank you.
Mr. Champagne, we have before you on the easel JFK exhibit No. F-100.
Does that accurately portray the four spent cartridge cases that your
panel test fired?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, it does.
Mr. McDONALD. And does one of the four cartridge cases have a dent?
Mr. CHAMPAGNE. No. 2 has the dent in the mouth.

UNQUOTE

In the past, two M-C owners have posted that their shells often
have dented lips, too. There's nothing unusual about it. The dent doesn't
occur until *after* the bullet has been fired and the empty cartridge is
being ejected.

Jean

[Bill Clarke]

In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond says...
>
>On Jan 5, 1:37=A0pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Jan 5, 6:03=A0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 1/4/2012 4:45 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>
>> > > In article<4f038...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>
>> > >> On 1/3/2012 10:58 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:

>> > >>> In article<a3bc23c8-7cb4-44bd-b646-58056ef7f...@k29g2000vbl.googleg=

>roups.com>,
>> > >>> Raymond says...
>>
>> > >>>> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0 " ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number =
>of shots was
>> > >>>> provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartrid=
>ges
>> > >>>> which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same rifle that =
>fired
>> > >>>> the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible that the assass=
>in
>> > >>>> carried an empty shell in the rifle and fired only two shots, with=

> the
>> > >>>> witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same shot."
>>

>> > >>>> Most people say three. Supposedly, one (the first) shot missed, on=
>e shot
>> > >>>> hit JFK in the neck, passed through Connally and became the allege=
>d
>> > >>>> magic-bullet. And the third was the fatal shot that hit the presid=
>ent in
>> > >>>> the head.
>>
>> > >>>> =A0 =A0The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses=
> at the scene
>> > >>>> was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two shot=
>s. The
>> > >>>> most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was provi=
>ded by
>> > >>>> the presence on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges. This le=
>d the
>> > >>>> Commission to conclude that there were three shots...." =A0WR 110-=
>111.
>>
>> > >>>> =A0 =A0But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence exam=
>ined by the
>> > >>>> Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIR=
>ED... It
>> > >>>> is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN THE RIFLE =

>and
>> > >>>> fired only two shots ...." WR 111
>>

>> > >>> Possible but not probable. =A0I don?t think a Marine with weapons t=
>raining
>> > >>> would do that. =A0It is not a good practice to leave the brass in t=

>he
>> > >>> chamber.
>>
>> > >> Apples and oranges. Oswald was trained on an M1 and it automatically

>> > >> ejects the cartridge. The Mannlicher-Carcano is a bolt action and if=
> you
>> > >> are in a hurry you might forget and not eject the empty. It doesn't =

>hurt a
>> > >> piece of junk like his rifle.
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is=
> no record of
>> > >>>> recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through K=
>ennedy
>> > >>>> and Connally and magically remained NEAR (but not ) pristine and e=
>nded up
>> > >>>> at Parkland Hospital.
>>
>> > >>>> =A0 =A0This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the m=
>otorcade.
>> > >>>> When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very littl=

>e was
>> > >>>> lost in its destructive journey.
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was allegedly recovered from=
> Connally's
>> > >>>> arm.
>>
>> > >>>> =A0 =A0Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were fo=
>ur or five
>> > >>>> fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a=
> couple
>> > >>>> of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the later.: =
>She
>> > >>>> recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from th=

>e body
>> > >>>> of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence...
>> > >>>>http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/ARRB_Medical_Interviews
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connall=
>y's leg
>> > >>>> wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was=
> never
>> > >>>> recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed m=
>ore that
>> > >>>> the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was descri=
>bed as
>> > >>>> NEAR pristine. (And the Warrens say, "The Governor's wrist wound W=

>AS NOT
>> > >>>> CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projec=

>tile that
>> > >>>> removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Linc=
>oln.
>> > >>>> According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grai=
>ns
>> > >>>> respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nos=
>e
>> > >>>> area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the t=
>wo
>> > >>>> fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determin=
>e from
>> > >>>> the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose =

>of one
>> > >>>> bullet or of two separate bullets."
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at=
> Parkland
>> > >>>> almost (but not) pristine, the last bullet had to be the bullet th=

>at hit
>> > >>>> JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same projectile.
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0I KINDA think that, with the angle of the neck shot, the ab=
>ove fragments
>> > >>>> would remain in the car, ergo, the remains of the single bullet ,.=
>... and
>> > >>>> the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaz=
>a.
>>
>> > >>>> =A0 =A0Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but h=
>e heard shots
>> > >>>> before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably hit=
> by a
>> > >>>> fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED FIRST S=
>HOT.
>> > >>>>http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php
>>
>> > >>>> I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. =A0If I were =
>the
>> > >>>> master-mind of the coup, I would be sure to provide evidence that =
>would
>> > >>>> assure the connection to the rifle and its owner, And since I coul=

>d not
>> > >>>> rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired at the

>> > >>>> occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the barr=
>el of
>> > >>>> the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it where it=

> would
>> > >>>> be found.
>>
>> > >>>> Enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the =

>Immaculate
>> > >>>> Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
>>

>> > >>>> =A0 =A0I do believe that a single bullet transited both men thus t=
>he single
>> > >>>> bullet, but I will never believe that the Parkland bullet is one a=
>nd the
>> > >>>> same bullet. I believe that the JFK /Connally bullet remained in t=
>he car
>> > >>>> and the Parkland bullet was planted on the wrong stretcher, at Par=
>kland,
>> > >>>> by Jack Ruby, when he failed to plant it in the limousine in Deale=

>y Plaza
>> > >>>> because the car went on to the hospital.
>>

>> > >>>> Some researchers, including George Michael Evica, believe that a s=
>hot from
>> > >>>> a pistol was fired into the air from behind the fence, on the Gras=
>sy
>> > >>>> Knoll, to divert the attention of the crowd and the authorities aw=
>ay from
>> > >>>> the TSBD to give the shooter time to fire the fatal shots at the p=

>resident
>> > >>>> and make his escape from the rear of the building. It worked.
>>

>> > >>>> And, despite the testimonies putting Ruby in the Dallas Morning Ne=

>ws, he
>> > >>>> WAS in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting.
>>
>> > >>>> THE DENTED BULLET SHELL:
>> > >>>> HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?
>> > >>>> Michael T. Griffith
>> > >>>> 2001
>>
>> > >>>> @All Rights Reserved
>> > >>>> Second Edition
>> > >>>> Revised on 4/26/2001
>>

>> > >>>> Could the dented bullet shell (CE 543) that was reportedly found n=

>ext
>> > >>>> to the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
>> > >>>> Depository Building (TSBD) have been used to fire a bullet on 22

>> > >>>> November 1963, i.e., the day of the assassination? This is a cruci=
>al
>> > >>>> question. Why? Because if that cartridge case couldn't have been u=
>sed
>> > >>>> to fire a bullet during the assassination, then there must have be=

>en
>> > >>>> more than one gunman. According to ballistics and firearms expert
>> > >>>> Howard Donahue, the dented shell could not have fired a bullet, as
>> > >>>> Bonar Menninger reports:
>>

>> > >>>> It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floo=
>r of
>> > >>>> the Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and sh=
>owed
>> > >>>> numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano c=
>lip
>> > >>>> that pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe =
>this
>> > >>>> dented shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The g=

>un
>> > >>>> would not have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St.
>> > >>>> Martin's Press, 1991, p. 114)
>>

>> > >>>> As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from w=
>hich
>> > >>>> the alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could no=
>t
>> > >>>> have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixt=
>h-
>> > >>>> floor gunman could have only fired two shots. However, it's certai=
>n
>> > >>>> that at least three shots were fired at President Kennedy. The sin=

>gle-
>> > >>>> assassin theory demands that the alleged lone gunman fired three

>> > >>>> shots. In other words, if the dented shell could not have been use=

>d to
>> > >>>> fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been more
>> > >>>> than one gunman.
>>

>> > >>>> Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Sele=
>ct
>> > >>>> Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could h=

>ave
>> > >>>> been dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it

>> > >>>> could have been used to fire a bullet on the day of the assassinat=
>ion:
>>
>> > >>> That is correct. =A0Marsh often argues that only a jammed rifle wou=
>ld
>> > >>> produce this bent lip but other things can cause a dented lip. =A0I=
> have
>>
>> > >> I never said that. I said that it is often what causes that type of =
>dent.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 "We know it jammed because of the dented lip." -- Ant=

>hony
>> Marsh, 2/28/11, post 38 here:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/threa...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dent=
>ed
>> > > lips. Good for you. =A0However this fact does cast a cloud on your th=

>eory
>> > > that the gun jammed.
>
>THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION
>It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
>lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the
>barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case
>that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.

The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wounds to JFK we
can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through his Carcano
that day in Dallas. From my personal experience and from an excellent
reference posted by Jean Davis the last time we plowed this ground with A.
Marsh here is what happens; a complete round is inserted into the chamber
and fired. As the empty case is withdrawn from the chamber the ejector
pushes the lip of the empty case into the receiver of the rifle before it
reaches the ejection port. This ejection is what makes the brass fly out
of the ejection port. The brass is very hot at this time and the ejector
is strong. It is strong enough to cause the case lip to be dented when it
slams into the receiver. So we have hot brass slamming into metal (the
receiver). This doesn?t occur that often because usually the empty brass
hits the ejection port and flies free without striking any metal of the
receiver.

This attempt to duplicate this denting of the case lip by throwing it
around a room is absurd and I would question the expertise of any fool
suggesting it. Cold brass hitting a wood wall doesn?t approach the
conditions in the rifle that dents the lip.

As for using used or previously fired cases that is so many horse apples
too. Before a used case can be used it must be resized in a reloading
press. If not the neck of the case won?t hold the new bullet and the case
itself might not fit into the chamber.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond says...
>
>On Jan 5, 1:37=A0pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 5, 6:03=A0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

Much stuff snipped for space.

>>
>>
>>
>> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these dent=
>ed

>> > > lips. Good for you. =A0However this fact does cast a cloud on your th=

>eory
>> > > that the gun jammed.
>
>THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION
>It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
>lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the
>barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case
>that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.

[Anthony Marsh]

Phony argument. He is talking about being used to fire a bullet with the
dented lip. Of course the lip was not already dented when it was made. It
was dented after the shot was fired.

> This, of course, is a crucial issue, for if one of the shells could
> not have been used to fire a bullet during the shooting, this would
> mean the sixth-floor gunman could have only fired two shots (unless
> there was a fourth shell that was never found, which is extremely
> unlikely). In other words, if the dented shell could not have been
> used to fire a bullet at President Kennedy, then there must have been
> another gunman.
>
> However, Gerald Posner, author of the book CASE CLOSED, says the HSCA
> proved the shell could have been used to fire a bullet:
>
> Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on
> the rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in
> that condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid
> firing of the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the
> exact same location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534).
> (CASE CLOSED, New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)
>

Not quite and the HSCA did not document HOW their shells got the dent on
the lip.

> I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue is a court-
> certified firearms expert and an world-class marksman. He was invited

He was not as expert as he pretended.

> to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best
> score of the simulation. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's
> claim (all emphasis is original):
>
> Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996
>
> Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
> held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.
> He will tell you anything to make a point. There were NO SHELLS DENTED
> IN THAT MANNER BY THE HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
> book, SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson
> discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
> He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
> avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.

That's silly. It's a straw man argument. Anyone familiar with firearms
knows that such a process is never the cause of that type of dent.

> Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
> very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
> the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the clip.
>
> Two shots only from Oswald? The following info is mostly from SIX
> SECONDS IN DALLAS:
>
> 1. No one INSIDE the TSBD heard more than two shots.
>

Ludicrous.

> 2. Howard Brennan, on the sidewalk UNDERNEATH the 6th floor window,
> heard only two shots.
>

And John Connally only heard two shots. That does not mean there were

only two shots.

> 3. The three men DIRECTLY under the window at first heard only two
> shots but eventually changed their testimony.
>

LIE.

> 4. The last two shots were fired so closely together they could never
> have been fired from a Carcano. If anyone tells you it is possible,
> then they have never fired a Carcano.
>

That says nothing about the first three shots.

> In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
> never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
> empties dented like these???
>

I have. It is a common problem with that rifle when you try to reload
too quickly.

> Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.
>
> Howard Donahue Firearms Examiner
>
> British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell
> could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as
> a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an
> e-mail message Mills sent to me on this subject:
>
> Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
> jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.
>
> Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
> own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
> exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
> showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.
>
> My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
> experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
> on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
> the results were reproduced. But the damage was exactly the same. It
> seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the lip
> of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the barrel
> opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case that
> has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>
> This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63
> was NOT fired from that window.
>

This proves that the cartridge had been just fired from that rifle and
then was dented upon faulty ejection.

> In a subsequent message, Mills elaborated on his statement that one of
> the cartridge cases found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest could not
> have been fired from the window:
>
> One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's
> nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing.
> This could not have happened before a missile left the shell as the
> dent would preclude the shell actually holding the bullet. It must
> have occurred at some time after this particular shell was fired.
>
> Several researchers have tried to duplicate the damage by standing on
> the case, throwing it against walls, etc., but to no avail. The case

Straw man arguments all.

> cannot be similarly damaged by loading a live round into the chamber
> either, as it is protected and guided into the breech by the bullet
> itself.
>
> What I found, by accident, is that similar damage can be caused by
> loading an empty case into the weapon. It appeared to me that the more
> times this was attempted, the more likely the damage was to occur.
> This led me to the apparent conclusion that unless the person in the
> 6th floor fired the weapon, ejected the shell, picked it up and then
> reloaded it (a pointless activity, as I'm sure you will agree), this
> particular case had been fired at some earlier time, then reloaded
> empty, probably several times. I consider that this is what caused the
> damage.
>

No, it is the failure to pull the bolt back all the way to properly eject
the empty shell which causes the problem. Throwing the bolt forward jams
the lip of the shell into the edge of the mouth of the chamber.

> This left me wondering why (a) practice with an empty shell case? and
> (b) why leave an extra case behind?
>

Wrong line of logic.

> Question A: At first I thought it may be to practice with the weapon
> but I guess that would be just as effective without a shell case in. I
> now think it more likely that the empty case was fed through several
> times in order that it could be matched (by scratch marks on its
> surface) to the M/C, whether or not the original bullet was really
> fired from that weapon.
>
> Which brings me to Question B: As I said in my last letter, if you
> plant a missile which is supposed to have come from the murder weapon,
> you must have a shell casing to go with it at the murder scene. If
> not, more missiles may turn up than cases found. Hence the dumped
> case, whoever did it being unaware of the damage to its lip.
>
> The dented shell is hard evidence that more than one gunman fired at
> President Kennedy, and hence that there was a conspiracy.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>

Garbage.

[Anthony Marsh]

Wrong. That is ridiculous and you can't demonstrate it. The base is going
back towards the receiver, not the lip. The lip is dented when you to load
it into the chamber and the lip hit the edge of the mouth of the chamber.
Used to happen sometimes on my AR-7 which would cause the rifle to jam.

The cartridge is not pulled back far enough to properly eject and when the
bolt is thrown forward the empty jams against the mouth of the chamber.
Nothing mysterious about that.

[Anthony Marsh]

Duh! He shot down the strawman argument. What a brave man!

> Mr. MCDONALD. Could it have occurred during the ejection process?
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes; during the testing of the weapon we found that one
> of the tests that were fired and ejected from the weapon by the panelists
> also included a cartridge case with a similar information of the mouth of
> the cartridge case.

Information? What is this, a physics lecture about black holes
preserving information? I think he said DEFORMATION.

> Mr. MCDONALD. In other words.
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. We also examined Federal tests. Of two tests that we
> examined, one of them also had an indented mouth.
> Mr. MCDONALD. Are you saying then when your panel test fired CE-139,
> out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented mouth?
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, that occurred during the ejection process in
> firing the weapon. If I may.
> Mr. McDONALD. Yes, please.
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. The ejection is that process whereby the bolt handle is
> moved to the rear to eject the expended cartridge case, ejecting the
> cartridge case out of the weapon.
> Mr. MCDONALD. Now, when you tested the rifle, the panel tested the
> rifle, of your panel members, who ejected the shell or cartridge case that
> came out with the dent?
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Mr. Lutz.
> Mr. MCDONALD. Would Mr. Lutz please come forward and demonstrate to us
> how you ejected to cause a dent in the test cartridge case.
> Mr. LUTZ. The particular amount of force that I used to extract and
> eject the cartridge case from the weapon was much in the manner that I
> would consider to be employed during an attempt to rapidly fire the
> firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being closed and then with

That is when it happens, during the rapid rifle reloading.
Not by a simply ejection.

> considerable speed and pressure being applied, opening it and pulling the
> bolt to the rear and holding it to my side, and in a manner very rapidly,
> kicking the cartridge back and ejecting the cartridge and causing it fall
> to the floor.
> Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
> Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
> Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt forward, the
> cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing tube holding the bolt
> handle and then pulling it back with a violent move duplicating what I
> deemed to be a rapid sequence of firing, operating the handle to rapidly
> fire the firearm.
> Mr. MCDONALD. Thank you.
> Mr. Champagne, we have before you on the easel JFK exhibit No. F-100.
> Does that accurately portray the four spent cartridge cases that your
> panel test fired?
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, it does.
> Mr. McDONALD. And does one of the four cartridge cases have a dent?
> Mr. CHAMPAGNE. No. 2 has the dent in the mouth.
>
> UNQUOTE
>
> In the past, two M-C owners have posted that their shells often
> have dented lips, too. There's nothing unusual about it. The dent doesn't
> occur until *after* the bullet has been fired and the empty cartridge is
> being ejected.
>

It is not the process of ejecting which causes the dent. It is the process
of trying to reload when the bolt has not properly ejected the empty
cartridge so it gets jammed back into the mouth of the chamber.

> Jean
>

[Raymond]

On Jan 7, 3:23 pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

Bill. Noted. Your argument is considered and worth believing.

We who post on these news groups have an antinomy. If one believes
that the assassination was a n., pl., coups d'état (kū'), or coup
d'états (dā-täz'). The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually
small group of persons in or previously in positions, it is easy to
believe that there was a genuine interest in killing JFK, He was a
threat to the establishment who had a great deal to lose. For them,
JFK had to be removed from a place that could destroy them. Robert
Kennedy was no doubt their second choice for murder.

Camelot came after JFK's demise. The picture on the coin and his name
on the libraries and school fronts was not the idea of the
establishment members. It was an after thought from the JOE SIXPACKS
of America.

For those who believe that LHO was the lone crazed murderer, it is
also easy to believe the WR and the opinions of many who accept the
Warren Wizards tale.

Both cannot be right. The rest of the story has yet to be revealed.
History will one day tell those who are still interested the truth and
it will put to rest the antinomy. ( Not to be confused with antimony,
a chemical element.)

I personally believe that the " Nightmare on Elm Street " was a
professional, well planned coup and a very successful one at that. JFK
was removed and the establishment has had its way ever since.

Back to the dented shell:
The Warren seven stooges - member commission was temporarily
concerned with the shell: On PP 110-111 they dealt with it.

I suggest that we all read the Warren Report for just exactly what
the Report does say. They make it clear that what they think and
what they know are two different things. Read it all carefully. Start
on page 110.

NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110

" ... The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots was
provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent
cartridges which were demonstrated to have been fired by the same
rifle that fired the bullets which caused the wounds.It is possible

that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL in the rifle and fired only

two shots, with the witnesses hearing multiple noises made by the same
shot."

THE SHOT THAT MISSED p 111
"... The evidence is inconclusive as to whether it was the
first,second, or third shot that missed."

The First Shot p 111
"IF THE FIRST SHOT MISSED, the assassin etc.."

The Second Shot p.115
"THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE SECOND SHOT MISSED IS CONSISTENT With
etc..
The Third Shot p. 115
"THE LAST POSSIBILITY, of course, is that it was the third shot
which missed. Etc.."

Testimony of Secret Service Agent Bennett convinced the Wizards that
it was the first shot that missed. Read his testimony. It is pretty
convincing that it was the second SOUND OF GUNFIRE that hit the
President. Be sure and read his testimony and the reasons why the
Warren Wizards believed him .P 111.

THE WARREN REPORT
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/WCR/index,html
Chapter III
NUMBER OF SHOTS

I have a suspicion the dented shell was part of the plan to account
for a shot from behind the picket fence on the hill ( Now, the Grassy
Knoll ) fired into the air and the NEAR PRISTINE slug found on a
stretcher at Parkland Hospital . If a conspiracy and a plan to blame
LHO was to be a success, there had to be physical evidence that the
shots came from a rifle that he allegedly owned. There could not be a
second shooter since, if caught, Oswald could not be framed as he was
as the lone assassin. Therefore, a shot into the air from the Knoll
(not at the president ) to divert the attention of the authorities and
the crowd away from the TSBD. ( It worked ) and a shell casing on the
floor along with two others that came from the shots to JFK's neck and
head had to be left in the TSBD. I do not believe that the dented
casing was fired that day. It was carried into the building and simply
dropped to the floor before the actual shooting began.

The replay of the assassination, in 1964, in the Plaza, a .38 cal.
pistol was fired from the hill because the authorities considered the
same thing was possible. Smoke was also reported as being seen from
that area on 11-22-63

I am not alone in my belief about the first report being a diversion
shot. George M. Evica ( We Are All Mortal ) also thinks it was a
diversion.

DR. Rose ( Fourth Decade ) sent me a copy of Evica's theory. I had
written to Rose and told him about my idea and he agreed that it
should be considered and sent me the copy of Evica's story.

There is far too much testimony that there was a shot from the Knoll.
Witnesses, that include Tague, heard a shot from there before he
felt the sting to his face. Read : http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page552.php

"Well, we took care of that SOB, didn't we?"
--- David Morales
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm

"If the people knew what we had done, they would chase us down the
street and lynch us."
---- GHW Bush CIA Recruit and eventually CIA Director

A strange one, this man.

On November 22, 1963 he claims he doesn't know where he was His
memory must be restored
http://www.tomflocco.com/Docs/63/BushJfkBookDepo.htm

Sometimes you keep going because you don't want to face the
truth....Why does God send people delusions so they wont believe the
truth If we don't want the truth, then God allows us to believe
lies.

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will
believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not
believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
-- II Thessalonians 2:9-12

Only time will tell what else will be revealed.
http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/04/poppys-alibi.html

Back to the dented shell:

The Single Bullet Theory (SBT) in the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy lives or dies at the mercy of a number of evidentiary hurdles it
must overcome on its way to legitimacy. If the SBT fails on any level,
that would be tantamount to proof of conspiracy in the assassination of
the President. Various commentators have argued that the positions of the
bullet holes in the clothing worn by the President prove that a single
bullet could not have passed through that clothing and the President's
body in such a way as to continue its path into the body of Governor John
Connally

--- John Hunt, Jr.

Most researchers do not agree with John Hunt. they argue that the coat
was bunched up.

SEE: http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/dent.htm

THE DENTED BULLET SHELL:

HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION?

Michael T. Griffith
2001 @All Rights Reserved
Second Edition
Revised on 4/26/2001

Bonar Menninger reports:

It was true that three spent Carcano shells were found on the floor of the
Book Depository. . . . Yet one of the shells was dented and showed
numerous marks from the carrier, the large spring in the Carcano clip that
pushed the bullet up to the chamber. Donahue did not believe this dented
shell could have been used to fire a bullet that day. The gun would not
have functioned properly. (Mortal Error, New York: St. Martin's Press,
1991, p. 114)

As mentioned, three shells were found in the sniper's nest, from which the
alleged lone gunman fired. But if one of those shells could not have been
used to fire a bullet during the shooting, then the sixth- floor gunman
could have only fired two shots. However, it's certain that at least three
shots were fired at President Kennedy. The single- assassin theory demands
that the alleged lone gunman fired three shots. In other words, if the
dented shell could not have been used to fire a bullet at President
Kennedy, then there must have been more than one gunman.

Gerald Posner, author of the book Case Closed, says the House Select
Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) proved the dented shell could have been
dented this badly when it was ejected, and therefore that it could have
been used to fire a bullet on the day of the assassination:

Another shell [of the three found on the sixth floor] was dented on the
rim, raising doubts that it could have been fired from a rifle in that
condition. In experiments by the House Select Committee, rapid firing of
the Carcano resulted in some shells being dented in the exact same

location upon ejection (HSCA, Vol. 1, pp. 435, 454, 534). (Case Closed,

New York: Random House, 1992, p. 270)

I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-
certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited to

participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best score

of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert witness on

firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's claim (all

emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have
held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner.

He will tell you anything to make a point. There were no shells dented

in that manner by the HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's
book, Six Seconds in Dallas, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson

discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times.
He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no
avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case.
Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are
very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into
the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the

clip. . . .

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson
never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several
empties dented like these???

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch. Howard Donahue,
Firearms Examiner

Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the
jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.

Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my
own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in
exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs
showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.

My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was
experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent
on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before
the results were reproduced.

But the damage was exactly the same. It seems that when using a hull

that has previously been fired, the lip of the case expands slightly
and can catch on a lip below the barrel opening in the breech. This

can only happen with an empty case that has already been fired and
even then only occasionally.

This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63

was not fired from that window.

"We are never deceived; we deceive ourselves.".
--- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ...

"Ideas are like stars; you will not succeed in touching them with your
hands. But like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose
them as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny."
- Carl Schurz (1829-1906)

Happy New Year

[Walt]

Jean, How much money would you like to bet on your argument? The men who
have said that the lip of the shell became dented (crimped) by attempting
to load the spent shell into the breech of a Mannlicher Carcano are
correct.

This will happen 99.9% of the time that a spent shell is fed into the
breech of a Mannlicher Carcano. The reason that spent shells won't feed
into the breech of the rifle is because the rifle was designed to use the
6.5 mm X 52mm cartridge. This cartridge has a case length of 52 mm ( 2
inches) and an overall length of 76mm (3 inches) It should be obvious
that the projectile extends out 1 inch beyond the end of the case. (1/3 of
the overall length of the cartridge is projectile) The projectile on the
end of the cartridge acts as a giude to guide the cartridge into the
breech of the rifle. When there is no projectile on the end of the case (
spent shell) there is nothing to guide the cartridge into the breech and
the forward edge of the spent shell hits a lip inside the receiver ( where
the barrel is screwed into the reciever) When the forward edge of the
spent shell hits that lip the case is crimped (bent exact as CE 543 is
crimped.)

Those spent shells were planted beneath that window.

I'll bet you whatever amount you desire that you can't produce one shell
out of a thousand, that will be damaged as CE 543 is by simply firing and
ejecting the cartridges. Are you game?

[David Von Pein]

>>> "I'll bet you whatever amount you desire that you can't produce one
shell out of a thousand, that will be damaged as CE 543 is by simply
firing and ejecting the cartridges." <<<

And Walt is still willing to make this bet even though it has been PROVEN
time and time again that a dent CAN and WILL occur in a shell casing
during a rapid-fire situation when ejecting a cartridge from a
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

I wonder why conspiracists like Walt just flat-out refuse to believe that
the HSCA replicated the dented lip when rapid-firing a Carcano rifle?

And John McAdams has said that he, too, has replicated the dented lip with
a Carcano. And other people on these forums have said the same thing.

Why won't Walt believe any of those people?

(I'll bet ya I know why. Wanna bet me, Walter?)

[Jean]

On Jan 7, 10:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 8:25 pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <814bde1a-b575-4282-a3bf-381babe86...@v13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> > aeffects says...
>
> > >On Jan 7, 12:23=A0pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> > >> In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups=
> > >.com>,
> > >> Raymond says...
>
> > >> >On Jan 5, 1:37=3DA0pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> On Jan 5, 6:03=3DA0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote=

> > >:
>
> > >> Much stuff snipped for space.
>

> > >> >> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these d=
> > >ent=3D
> > >> >ed
> > >> >> > > lips. Good for you. =3DA0However this fact does cast a cloud on yo=
> > >ur th=3D

> > >> >eory
> > >> >> > > that the gun jammed.
>
> > >> >THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION
> > >> >It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
> > >> >lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the
> > >> >barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case
> > >> >that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>

> > >> The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wounds to JFK we
> > >> can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through his Carcano
> > >> that day in Dallas.
>

> > >if Decker can't put the rifle in LHO's hands what makes you think you
> > >can? (The Warren Comish tell you so?) Really Bill you should know
> > >better....
>
> > ><snip the remaining Bill & Jean show nonsense>
>
> > Regardless of who fired the Carcano the facts that Jean and I have pointed out
> > remains true for the empty case with the dented neck found at the snipers nest.
> > Or do you have something else.  I might add that even Marsh now accepts the fact
> > that the ejector can cause this bent lip.
>
> Bill, it's obvious that you don't own a Mannlicher Carcano, nor do you
> understand the mechanism.
>
> I believe your one of the more honest LNer's in this NG. and I believe
> if you owned a MC you wouldn't support the idea that the ejector can
> dent the neck of a spent shell being ejected.   But even if you don't
> have a MC you should be able to understand simple physics.
>
> Here's the simple physics..... The spent shell is pulled from the
> firing chamber by the ejector finger that is part of the bolt. So the
> bolt and the spent shell are traveling rearward. The bolt doesn't
> release the spent shell until the front of the spent shell is 1 1/8
> inch to the rear of the receiver opening.  IOW..... There is well over
> ONE inch of clearance between the rear of the receiver opening and the
> front (neck) of the spent shell so there is NOTHING to create a dent
> while the spent shell is being ejected.  AND simple physics ( and
> common sense) tells you the spent shell would have to be traveling
> FORWARD to dent the lip of the shell, but spent shells do NOT travel
> forward while the operator is firing and ejecting cartridges.

The HSCA Firearms Panel said the shell was dented during the
"ejection process," but didn't say the ejector itself caused the
dent. An M-C owner who said he'd gotten some dented shells posted
this:

QUOTE:

The ejector pin is seated on the bottom left. When the shell is
ejected,
it has rearward momentum and a right hand ejection. This causes the
shell
to hit the bolt brake, denting the casing where it hits the on the
brake.
I videotaped this and it is on my site.

UNQUOTE

Unfortunately that was in 2006 and the site is long gone.

>
> There's a lot more to this than this simple explanation but I won't
> get into it unless  Some dumbass wants to continue arging that the
> shell got dented during the shooting.

Is anyone who disagrees with you a "dumbass," Walt? Even
the HSCA Firearms Panel?

>
>   Even Marsh for crying out loud.
>
>
>
>
>
> > What does your Siamese twin have to say about it?  He must still be tied up over
> > at Amazon.
>
> > Bill Clarke-

Jean

Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jean Davison]

Your argument is not with me, it's with the Firearms Panel
of the HSCA. Take it up with them, Walt. I'm simply relaying what
they and two M-C owners have reported. If you Google this, you'll
also find conversations in various gun forums recounting how dented
shells occur on ejection from other rifles and handguns.


Jean

[Raymond]

The picture appears to be of an empty cartridge casing that got a
little bent up after it was fired and ejected. However, what's really
curious is looking at the top end of the casing, as seen in the
picture. The way it's tapered like that, it looks like this could have
been a blank round that would have prevented the shell from entering
the breech opening of the barrel. This would have caused the shooter
to eject the hull (casing) from the weapon before chambering the next
round for firing. Could it have caused the pause in the shooting
cycle ? Testimony indicated that there was a short delay between the
first and second shots..

I belted thousands of rounds of .30 and.50 cal. ammunition to load
into ammunition boxes to be fired from machine guns in the wings of
Grumman F4 and F6F fighter planes as well as F4U Corsairs, SBD Dive
bombers and other planes during WW ii, and often a blank round would
appear during the belting, which we removed before loading into the
ammo box. If it had been missed, it could have caused the machine gun
to malfunction. Most will not fully cycle with blank cartridges,
causing malfunctions. ... Failure to do this with even one round
caused a stoppage.

SEE what belted ammo looks like and imagine a blank round along that
belt. It would have jammed the gun.
http://www.pt103.com/Browning_50_Cal_M2_History.html

SEE F4U Corsair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair

Armament
Guns:

6 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) AN/M2 Browning machine guns, 400 rpg or
4 × 20 millimetre (0.79 in) M2 cannon
Rockets: 8 × 5 in (12.7 cm) high velocity aircraft rockets and/or
Bombs: 4,000 pounds (1,800 kg)

Just a thought !

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f08...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Damn, just when I thought you were beginning to see the light at the end of the
tunnel and the light turns out to be that of an oncoming speeding train.

What you describe could do it but is not the only cause. Contrary to your
opinion the ejector has enough strength to dent the case mouth by itself. The
case is hot (more malleable), the ejector slams the empty case against the metal
of the receiver instead of the ejection port. When the empty case reaches the
ejector port it is expelled from the receiver. I’ve seen it happen with no
jamming numerous times.

My old man’s Remington .270 semiautomatic was the worst rifle I’ve seen in
denting case lips without a jam. Explain that Marsh. I certainly wasn’t
operating the bolt too fast, too hard or incompletely since it was a
semiautomatic.

You are wrong. Again. And you cannot prove the Carcano jammed that day in
Dallas.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f08...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>

You’re the one wrong here Marsh. I have demonstrated many times exactly what I
have described back when I was hand loading and shooting numerous rifles. I’m
sorry you were not there to see it.

Tell me this Marsh. You fire three rounds with no problems. No jamming of the
rifle. You police your empty brass and one of the empty cases has a dented lip.
What happened.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <5a72729b-2b57-4e85...@o14g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
Raymond says...
>
>On Jan 7, 3:23=C2=A0pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups=
>.com>,
>> Raymond says...
>>
>>
>>

>> >On Jan 5, 1:37=3DA0pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jan 5, 6:03=3DA0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote=
>:
>>

>> Much stuff snipped for space.
>>
>>
>>

>> >> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause these d=
>ent=3D
>> >ed
>> >> > > lips. Good for you. =3DA0However this fact does cast a cloud on yo=
>ur th=3D

>> >eory
>> >> > > that the gun jammed.
>>
>> >THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATION
>> >It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
>> >lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the
>> >barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case
>> >that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>>
>> The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wounds to JFK we
>> can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through his Carcano

>> that day in Dallas. =C2=A0From my personal experience and from an excelle=
>nt
>> reference posted by Jean Davis the last time we plowed this ground with A=

>.
>> Marsh here is what happens; a complete round is inserted into the chamber

>> and fired. =C2=A0As the empty case is withdrawn from the chamber the ejec=

>tor
>> pushes the lip of the empty case into the receiver of the rifle before it

>> reaches the ejection port. =C2=A0This ejection is what makes the brass fl=

>y out
>> of the ejection port. The brass is very hot at this time and the ejector

>> is strong. =C2=A0It is strong enough to cause the case lip to be dented w=
>hen it
>> slams into the receiver. =C2=A0So we have hot brass slamming into metal (=
>the
>> receiver). =C2=A0This doesn?t occur that often because usually the empty =

>brass
>> hits the ejection port and flies free without striking any metal of the
>> receiver.
>>
>> This attempt to duplicate this denting of the case lip by throwing it
>> around a room is absurd and I would question the expertise of any fool
>> suggesting it. Cold brass hitting a wood wall doesn?t approach the
>> conditions in the rifle that dents the lip.
>>
>> As for using used or previously fired cases that is so many horse apples
>> too. Before a used case can be used it must be resized in a reloading

>> press. =C2=A0If not the neck of the case won?t hold the new bullet and th=

>e case
>> itself might not fit into the chamber.
>>
>> Bill Clarke
>
>Bill. Noted. Your argument is considered and worth believing.

Thank you Raymond. To each his own I think.

Bill Clarke

>We who post on these news groups have an antinomy. If one believes

>that the assassination was a n., pl., coups d'=C3=A9tat (k=C5=AB'), or coup
>d'=C3=A9tats (d=C4=81-t=C3=A4z'). The sudden overthrow of a government by a=

>felt the sting to his face. Read : http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/=

[Raymond]

On Jan 7, 11:42 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:

> Raymond wrote:....."I personally believe that the " Nightmare on Elm

>
> Street " was a professional, well planned coup and a very successful
> one at that. JFK was removed and the establishment has had its way
> ever since.
>

> You're absolutely right, Raymond......but unfortunately you're one of
> the biggest obstacles to revealing the truth.
>
> You can't focus on the facts.....In your quest to answer ALL of the
> tens of thousands of unanswered questions that exist in this case you
> lose focus of the PRIMARY evidence. You just keep digging into the
> pile of bullshit hoping that you'll find something of value.  You're
> like the hunter who thought he could kill a grizzly bear with a shot
> gun loaded with quail loads.
> You keep blasting away with the shotgun and make a lot of noise but
> you accomplish NOTHING.  If you want to kill the grizzly you need to
> form the pellets into a solid slug.  The scattergun won't cut it.
>
> Stop digging in that pile of BS and flinging it every where.....

> > --- David Moraleshttp://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm

>
> > "If the people knew what we had done, they would chase us down the
> > street and lynch us."
> > ---- GHW Bush CIA Recruit and eventually CIA Director
>
> > A strange one, this man.
>
> > On November 22, 1963 he claims he doesn't know where he was  His

> > memory must be restoredhttp://www.tomflocco.com/Docs/63/BushJfkBookDepo.htm

>
> > Sometimes you keep going because you don't want to face the
> > truth....Why does God send people delusions so they wont believe the
> > truth   If we don't want the truth, then God allows us to believe
> > lies.
>
> > "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
> > For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will
> > believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not
> > believed the truth but have
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument."
- William Gibbs McAdoo (1863-1941)

[Raymond]

On Jan 8, 12:26 am, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <d2045f23-6557-433d-989f-012de5adc...@n6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
> Walt says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 7, 8:25=A0pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >> In article <814bde1a-b575-4282-a3bf-381babe86...@v13g2000yqc.googlegroups=
> >.com>,
> >> aeffects says...
>
> >> >On Jan 7, 12:23=3DA0pm, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >> >> In article <8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegro=
> >ups=3D
> >> >.com>,
> >> >> Raymond says...
>
> >> >> >On Jan 5, 1:37=3D3DA0pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote=
> >:
> >> >> >> On Jan 5, 6:03=3D3DA0am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =
> >wrote=3D

> >> >:
>
> >> >> Much stuff snipped for space.
>

> >> >> >> > > So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause thes=
> >e d=3D
> >> >ent=3D3D
> >> >> >ed
> >> >> >> > > lips. Good for you. =3D3DA0However this fact does cast a cloud =
> >on yo=3D
> >> >ur th=3D3D

> >> >> >eory
> >> >> >> > > that the gun jammed.
>

> >> >> >THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSINATIO=

> >N
> >> >> >It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the
> >> >> >lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the
> >> >> >barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case
> >> >> >that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>

> >> >> The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wounds to JFK=
> > we
> >> >> can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through his Carc=

> >ano
> >> >> that day in Dallas.
>
> >> >if Decker can't put the rifle in LHO's hands what makes you think you
> >> >can? (The Warren Comish tell you so?) Really Bill you should know
> >> >better....
>
> >> ><snip the remaining Bill & Jean show nonsense>
>

> >> Regardless of who fired the Carcano the facts that Jean and I have pointe=
> >d out
> >> remains true for the empty case with the dented neck found at the snipers=
> > nest.
> >> Or do you have something else. =A0I might add that even Marsh now accepts=
> > the fact

> >> that the ejector can cause this bent lip.
>
> >Bill, it's obvious that you don't own a Mannlicher Carcano, nor do you
> >understand the mechanism.
>
> >I believe your one of the more honest LNer's in this NG. and I believe
> >if you owned a MC you wouldn't support the idea that the ejector can
> >dent the neck of a spent shell being ejected.   But even if you don't
> >have a MC you should be able to understand simple physics.
>

> True Walt, I’ve never laid a hand on a Carcano and I should have made that
> clear.  I believe I did this in a previous discussion we had about the rifle.
> And apparently the Cacano has some major designs that differ from the rifles I
> am familiar with.
>
> Bill Clarke

Bill, don't pay any attention to the crude and vulgar Walt. He says
he has more than one MC and knows more about them than anyone, which I
doubt. Richard Hobbs is very knowledgeable and my choice for
information about the MC

2985 Boeing Road
Cameron Park, CA 95682
USA
Voice: 916-677-8988
Email: fuc...@innercite.com
Guns, parts, information. Richard J. Hobbs, is very knowledgeable
about the Carcano, and the author of The Carcano - Italy's Military
Rifle.

Example; Walt claims that the clip automatically drops out of the
magazine when the last round is chambered.
The TSBD clip was still in the weapon after the last round was
chambered.

An article, written by clip expert, Charles H.Yust,Jr. , (Some
Interesting Clips) appeared in the June 1960 issue of American
Rifleman. On P.47, a photo and description of the clip operation
appears. As follows:

ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano rifle and
carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 cartridges. Made
of brass and tinned blued Parkerized and cadmium - plated steel, clip
is held in magazine until last round is used, and then PUSHED OUT
BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from top. Clip was also
used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered during World War 1 to
6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when Italy increased
caliber
of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine and clip were
retained.

See Firing and reloading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M

It is true that almost anyone that is firing MCs and using clips knows
that clips DO fall out. However, the Italian factory loaded clips
remained in the rifles until another clip was inserted into the
rifles. After th war, clips and ammo finally became scarce and used
clips and homemade clips were used and reloaded . These clips were not
guranteed to remain in the weapon and did fall out.most often.

After the war, I worked at Republic Steel with two men from Italy who
were in the Italian Army. I saw them around the local shopping mall
after the coup in Dallas and asked them about the MC. and its
operation. They told me that the clips did not fall out automatically.
They had to insert a new clip first and the clip inside the magazine
did fall out then, They did not reload the clips and the battlefields
were littered with discarded clips.

I understand the argument and am not sure if it is that important..

Here is Walt at his vukgar best:

Raymond, you sorry SON-OF-A BITCH......Every single point on the
videos is a damned LIE!! The rifles being used in these videos are
CUSTOM Carcanos being fired by men who are very experienced with the
rifles. The rifles are equipped with top quality scopes, and the
shooters are wrapped tightly into a hasty sling. Then the rifles are
being fired from a solid bech top sand bag. You LN prick....

YES!!.....I sure as hell am a nuisance to an asshole that just keeps
piling more and more bullshit onto the mountain of bullshit about the
murder of President Kennedy. You've exposed yourself as the LNer
disinformationalist that you are.

Anybody with a reasoning ability greater than a common garden slug can
watch the videos that you posted and SEE with their own eyes that the
Carcanos being fired by experts bare NO comparison to Oswald and the
rusty old Carcano that was found in the TSBD. You're a no-good, low
life, lying, SON-OF-A- BITCH..... And I intend to be a real nuisance
for you.

Raymond, you lying SON-OF-A-BITCH you've tried to make it appear that
a BRASS clip won't drop clear of a Mannlicher Carcano by posting
videos where STEEL clips being used.

I invite everybody to see with their own good eyes what a lying SOB
you are..... All they need to do is view a video....http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M ...Scroll down to.... Carcano
91/38 Calibro 6.5mm, and watch the clip fall right out of the rifle.
It is NOT necessary for the clip to be PUSHED OUT OF THE BOTTOM.....
Ya lyin bastard!.

The above description is accurate......except, the clip does not NEED
to be PUSHED OUT. It will fall free by the force of gravity
UNLESS......as in battle conditions the magazine has dirt or mud in
it....THEN if the clip gets stuck in the magazine it can be pushed out
by simply inserting a fresh clip of cartridges.

FWIW..... The Mannlicher carcano was DESIGNED to use a BRASS clip.....
But when brass became scarce they started making the clips out of
steel. The steel clips don't work as well as the brass clips....The
brass clips rarely got stuck in the magazine, and the clip that was
photographed in the rifle as Lt. Day left the TSBD with the rifle
shows the clip was made out of brass. That brass never got stuck in
that rifle, ie; the clip did not fail to drop free of the rifle when
that last cartridge was stripped from it by the forward stroke of the
bolt. That clip was placed in the rifle through the bottom opening
in the magazine just before the rifle was carefully placed on the
floor and hidden by stacking boxes of books over it.

READ:
Google Groups: Terms of Service .
You agree that when using the Service, you will not: defame, abuse,
harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal
rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others; post any
inappropriate, defamatory, infringing, obscene, or unlawful
Content; ....Google may investigate and determine in good faith and in
its sole discretion whether to remove the Content.

Last update: December 10, 2010

Google’s Rights. You acknowledge that Google does not pre-screen,
control, edit or endorse Content made available through the Service
and has no obligation to monitor the Content Posted via the Service.
If Google discovers Content that does not appear to conform to the
Terms of Service, Google may investigate and determine in good faith
and in its sole discretion whether to remove the Content. Google will
have no liability or responsibility for performance or non-performance
of such activities. You acknowledge that certain Groups available
through the Service are available only through the Service and others
are available both through the Service and other sources, such as
Usenet, over which Google has absolutely no control.

Content Removal and Archiving. If you are not the Owner of a Group,
you may request removal of a message that you have Posted yourself.
You agree to resolve directly and exclusively with third parties any
disputes you may have about messages that they posted or you may
contact the Group Owner to request a removal. In this regard, you
understand that Google does not monitor or control the content of
information Posted by others, and instead simply provides a service by
allowing users to access information that has been made available.

5. Appropriate Conduct
You agree that you are responsible for your own conduct and
communications while using the Service and for any consequences
thereof. You agree to use the Service only to send and receive
messages and material that are legal, proper and related to the
particular Group. By way of example, and not as a limitation, you
agree that when using the Service, you will not: defame, abuse,
harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as
rights of privacy and publicity) of others; post any inappropriate,
defamatory, infringing, obscene, or unlawful Content; post any Content
that infringes any patent, trademark, copyright, trade secret or other
proprietary right of any party (the “Rights”), unless you are the
owner of the Rights or have the permission of the owner to Post such
Content; post messages that promote pyramid schemes, chain letters or
disruptive commercial messages or advertisements, or anything else
prohibited by the Group owner. download any file Posted by another
user of a Group that you know, or reasonably should know, that cannot
be legally distributed in such manner; impersonate another person or
entity, or falsify or delete any author attributions, legal or other
proper notices or proprietary designations or labels of the origin or
source of software or other material contained in a file that is
Posted; restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the
Service; use the Service for any illegal or unauthorized purpose;
remove any copyright, trademark or other proprietary rights notices
contained in or on the Service; interfere with or disrupt the Service
or servers or networks connected to the Service, or disobey any
requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks
connected to the Service; use any robot, spider, site search/retrieval
application, or other device to retrieve or index any portion of the
Service or collect information about users for any unauthorized
purpose; submit Content that falsely expresses or implies that such
Content is sponsored or endorsed by Google; create user accounts by
automated means or under false or fraudulent pretenses; promote or
provide instructional information about illegal activities or promote
physical harm or injury against any group or individual; or transmit
any viruses, worms, defects, Trojan horses, or any items of a
destructive nature. International users agree to comply with their own
local rules regarding online conduct and acceptable content, including
laws regulating the export of data to the United States or your
country of residence.

While Google prohibits such conduct and Content in connection with the
Service, you understand and agree that you nonetheless may be exposed
to such conduct and/or Content and that you use the Service at your
own risk

Walt also argued that you cannot fire the MC without a clip . That is
pure nonsense.

Walt wrote:
"The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a
clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT
CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! "

CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual
assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967:

The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the
Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory
for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out
once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?

Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
fthe last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the
clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the
bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had
been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges
of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the
walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
will hang up in the box area.11

That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true
that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck
as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)
574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent
condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,
Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12

According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took
turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They
fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which
resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip
problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was
disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots,
however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of
analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film,
clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If
a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged
feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel
seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test
the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the
defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing
test:

Mr. Lutz. This was a SINGLE CARTRIDGE being inserted into the chamber
and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
firing into it, in order to recover the projectile
.
******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip,
were you?
******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
***** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.

Walt wrote:
Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to
believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not
fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some
ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES
fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since
this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called
"Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY
Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!! )

Believe in the impossible
Lewis Carroll

"I can't believe that!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long
breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe
impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I
was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes
I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

--- Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll

Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. III - Page 398
(Testimony of Robert A. Frazier)

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php

Mr. Mccloy.
Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes; you can.
Mr. Mccloy.
What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one
shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with
the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

"I can't believe that!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long
breath, and shut your eyes."

Happy New Year
Raymond

> >Here's the simple physics..... The spent shell is pulled from the
> >firing chamber by the ejector finger that is part of the bolt. So the
> >bolt and the spent shell are traveling rearward. The bolt doesn't
> >release the spent shell until the front of the spent shell is 1 1/8
> >inch to the rear of the receiver opening.  IOW..... There is well over
> >ONE inch of clearance between the rear of the receiver opening and the
> >front (neck) of the spent shell so there is NOTHING to create a dent
> >while the spent shell is being ejected.  AND simple physics ( and
> >common sense) tells you the spent shell would have to be traveling
> >FORWARD to dent the lip of the shell, but spent shells do NOT travel
> >forward while the operator is firing and ejecting cartridges.
>

> >There's a lot more to this than this simple explanation but I won't
> >get into it unless  Some dumbass wants to continue arging that the
> >shell got dented during the shooting.
>

> > =A0Even Marsh for crying out loud.
>
> >> What does your Siamese twin have to say about it? =A0He must still be tie=

> >d up over
> >> at Amazon.
>

> >> Bill Clarke- Hide quoted text -

[Raymond]

On Jan 3, 12:05 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2012 21:06:47 -0500, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 2, 2:42 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>
> >The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
> >the sixth floor.  One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
> >A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
> >Nov. 22.




> No, the photos show three spend cartridges.

"By the end of the year, with the formation of the Warren Commission,
the combination of a missed shot, the rapidity of the two shots that
struck JFK and Connally in their backs, the apparent throat wound and
violent backwards movement of JFK after the head shot, all were
creating a problem, if the entire shooting was to be pinned on
Oswald . It should also be noted that the Dallas Police inventory list
had only included two spent shells retrieved from the sixth floor and
one of two photos taken at the scene, indeed, showed two casings. A
third one, also found on the floor, but not forwarded to the FBI by
the Dallas police chief for several days, had a dent in it, unlike the
others.."
--- DECEPTION AND DECEIT: MEDIA COVERAGE OF JFK’S ASSASSINATION
Peter R. Whitmey
Abbotsford, BC
Nov. 4, 2003

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/Whitmey/Deception.html

> You have posted a factoid, Peter.
>

[Raymond]

On Jan 7, 11:08 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. As, first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

-- William Shakespeare's As You Like It,

[Walt]

YOU BETCHA!!....... Do you want to get serious? I'll bet what ever amount
you choose that you can't replicate the dented neck of CE 143 by EJECTING
the spent shell. And furthermore I'll bet you I can replicate that dent
on the vast majority of 100 spent shells, by attempting to load a spent
shell into the firing chamber.

Put up some money big mouth..... Do you have the guts to back up your
ridiculous claims with cold hard cash??

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/8/2012 10:20 AM, Raymond wrote:
> On Jan 3, 12:05 pm, John McAdams<john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 2 Jan 2012 21:06:47 -0500, Canuck<prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2:42 pm, Raymond<Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> NUMBER OF SHOTS p 110 WR to the President
>>
>>> The Dallas Police inventory list included two spent shells retrieved from
>>> the sixth floor. One of the photos taken at the scene, indeed, shows two.
>>> A third dented shell was forwarded to the FBI by Fritz several days after
>>> Nov. 22.
>
>
>
>
>> No, the photos show three spend cartridges.
>
> "By the end of the year, with the formation of the Warren Commission,
> the combination of a missed shot, the rapidity of the two shots that
> struck JFK and Connally in their backs, the apparent throat wound and
> violent backwards movement of JFK after the head shot, all were
> creating a problem, if the entire shooting was to be pinned on
> Oswald . It should also be noted that the Dallas Police inventory list
> had only included two spent shells retrieved from the sixth floor and
> one of two photos taken at the scene, indeed, showed two casings. A
> third one, also found on the floor, but not forwarded to the FBI by
> the Dallas police chief for several days, had a dent in it, unlike the
> others.."

> --- DECEPTION AND DECEIT: MEDIA COVERAGE OF JFK?S ASSASSINATION

> Peter R. Whitmey
> Abbotsford, BC
> Nov. 4, 2003
>
> http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/Whitmey/Deception.html
>
>

The end of WHAT year? At the end of 1963 both the FBI and the WC had
three shots, three hits and no missed shot.

Specter did not realize the timing problem until the end of April 1964.
Fritz kept the third cartridge to try to figure out where Oswald could
have bought the ammunition. It was still his case, not the Feds.

[Anthony Marsh]

>>>>> <snip the remaining Bill& Jean show nonsense>

>>
>>>> Regardless of who fired the Carcano the facts that Jean and I have pointe=
>>> d out
>>>> remains true for the empty case with the dented neck found at the snipers=
>>> nest.
>>>> Or do you have something else. =A0I might add that even Marsh now accepts=
>>> the fact
>>>> that the ejector can cause this bent lip.
>>
>>> Bill, it's obvious that you don't own a Mannlicher Carcano, nor do you
>>> understand the mechanism.
>>
>>> I believe your one of the more honest LNer's in this NG. and I believe
>>> if you owned a MC you wouldn't support the idea that the ejector can
>>> dent the neck of a spent shell being ejected. But even if you don't
>>> have a MC you should be able to understand simple physics.
>>

>> True Walt, I?ve never laid a hand on a Carcano and I should have made that

And what is the point of this disinformation? No one said that the clips
ALWAYS fall out when empty. Sometimes they do.

> Here is Walt at his vukgar best:
>
> Raymond, you sorry SON-OF-A BITCH......Every single point on the
> videos is a damned LIE!! The rifles being used in these videos are
> CUSTOM Carcanos being fired by men who are very experienced with the
> rifles. The rifles are equipped with top quality scopes, and the
> shooters are wrapped tightly into a hasty sling. Then the rifles are
> being fired from a solid bech top sand bag. You LN prick....
>
> YES!!.....I sure as hell am a nuisance to an asshole that just keeps
> piling more and more bullshit onto the mountain of bullshit about the
> murder of President Kennedy. You've exposed yourself as the LNer
> disinformationalist that you are.
>
> Anybody with a reasoning ability greater than a common garden slug can
> watch the videos that you posted and SEE with their own eyes that the
> Carcanos being fired by experts bare NO comparison to Oswald and the
> rusty old Carcano that was found in the TSBD. You're a no-good, low
> life, lying, SON-OF-A- BITCH..... And I intend to be a real nuisance
> for you.
>
> Raymond, you lying SON-OF-A-BITCH you've tried to make it appear that
> a BRASS clip won't drop clear of a Mannlicher Carcano by posting
> videos where STEEL clips being used.
>

It doesn't matter much if it is steel or brass.

> I invite everybody to see with their own good eyes what a lying SOB
> you are..... All they need to do is view a video....http://
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGOQ2oebB2M ...Scroll down to.... Carcano
> 91/38 Calibro 6.5mm, and watch the clip fall right out of the rifle.
> It is NOT necessary for the clip to be PUSHED OUT OF THE BOTTOM.....
> Ya lyin bastard!.
>
> The above description is accurate......except, the clip does not NEED
> to be PUSHED OUT. It will fall free by the force of gravity
> UNLESS......as in battle conditions the magazine has dirt or mud in
> it....THEN if the clip gets stuck in the magazine it can be pushed out
> by simply inserting a fresh clip of cartridges.
>

The clip is designed to fall out when empty. If it doesn't you need to
push the catch to make it fall out.

> FWIW..... The Mannlicher carcano was DESIGNED to use a BRASS clip.....
> But when brass became scarce they started making the clips out of
> steel. The steel clips don't work as well as the brass clips....The
> brass clips rarely got stuck in the magazine, and the clip that was
> photographed in the rifle as Lt. Day left the TSBD with the rifle
> shows the clip was made out of brass. That brass never got stuck in
> that rifle, ie; the clip did not fail to drop free of the rifle when
> that last cartridge was stripped from it by the forward stroke of the
> bolt. That clip was placed in the rifle through the bottom opening
> in the magazine just before the rifle was carefully placed on the
> floor and hidden by stacking boxes of books over it.
>

We can see the clip starting to fall out of the rifle as Lt. Day holds it.

> READ:
> Google Groups: Terms of Service .
> You agree that when using the Service, you will not: defame, abuse,
> harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal
> rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others; post any
> inappropriate, defamatory, infringing, obscene, or unlawful
> Content; ....Google may investigate and determine in good faith and in
> its sole discretion whether to remove the Content.
>
> Last update: December 10, 2010
>

> Google?s Rights. You acknowledge that Google does not pre-screen,

> proprietary right of any party (the ?Rights?), unless you are the

I think his point was that it is very difficult to reload without a clip.
That is exactly why so many purchasers complained when they bought their
Mannlicher-Carcanos and told Adam Consolidated that they were selling
defective rifles. Riva had to go to New York to explain to Adam that you
MUST load the rifle using a clip.

"He was told these were the rifles that were defective, and to
demonstrate, an employee attempted without success to load a rifle." "Riva
demonstrated the proper loading of the 91: the insertion of bullets in the
clip, the loading of the rifle with the clip." If you had any experience
with the rifle yourself you would know how difficult it is to load a
single bullet without using a clip.

> Walt wrote:
> "The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a
> clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT
> CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!! "
>
> CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual
> assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967:
>
> The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the
> Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory
> for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out
> once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?
>
> Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
> fthe last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the
> clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the
> bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
> particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
> it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had
> been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges
> of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the
> walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
> areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
> will hang up in the box area.11
>

Anecdotal and not relevant. It is not a case of either/or/always/never.
Sometimes the same clip will stay in and sometimes it will fall out.

> That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true
> that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck

Not true.

> as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)
> 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent
> condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,
> Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
> condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12
>
> According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took
> turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They
> fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which
> resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip

The rifle jammed.

> problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was
> disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots,
> however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of
> analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film,
> clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If
> a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged
> feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel
> seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test
> the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the
> defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing
> test:
>
> Mr. Lutz. This was a SINGLE CARTRIDGE being inserted into the chamber
> and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
> box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
> firing into it, in order to recover the projectile
> .
> ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip,
> were you?
> ******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
> ***** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
> ***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
>

I question his honesty.
Maybe he loaded the rifle using the clip and then the clip fell out
before he fired the single shot.

Not easily and certainly not for rapid reloading.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f08...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

> You?re the one wrong here Marsh. I have demonstrated many times exactly what I
> have described back when I was hand loading and shooting numerous rifles. I?m

> sorry you were not there to see it.
>

No, you didn't.

> Tell me this Marsh. You fire three rounds with no problems. No jamming of the
> rifle. You police your empty brass and one of the empty cases has a dented lip.
> What happened.
>

Look at the CBS tests. Look at Todd Vaughan's tests. You fire two rounds
and then the rifle jams. It takes you five seconds to clear the jam before
you fire the third shot.

You dented the lip after your second shot by trying to reload too quickly
and jamming the empty cartridge back into the rifle.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f08...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

No, it doesn't and you can't reproduce that.

> case is hot (more malleable), the ejector slams the empty case against the metal
> of the receiver instead of the ejection port. When the empty case reaches the

The receiver is behind the base of the shell, not in front of the lip.

> ejector port it is expelled from the receiver. I’ve seen it happen with no
> jamming numerous times.
>

Nope. There is nothing inside the chamber which can dent the lip.

> My old man’s Remington .270 semiautomatic was the worst rifle I’ve seen in
> denting case lips without a jam. Explain that Marsh. I certainly wasn’t
> operating the bolt too fast, too hard or incompletely since it was a
> semiautomatic.
>
> You are wrong. Again. And you cannot prove the Carcano jammed that day in
> Dallas.
>

The tape proves that the rifle jammed. The first two shots reloaded and
fired within 1.66 seconds and then an unexplained gap of five seconds.

> Bill Clarke
>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Sure, and I have recounted how my AR-7 jammed with a dented lip cartridge
getting jammed against the mouth of the chamber. That is what happened to
CE 543.

The empty shell fails to eject and gets jammed back into the rifle. But
without a bullet to guide it into the mouth of the chamber the lip catches
on the edge of the mouth of the chamber.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/7/2012 11:08 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
>>>> "I'll bet you whatever amount you desire that you can't produce one
> shell out of a thousand, that will be damaged as CE 543 is by simply
> firing and ejecting the cartridges."<<<
>
> And Walt is still willing to make this bet even though it has been PROVEN
> time and time again that a dent CAN and WILL occur in a shell casing
> during a rapid-fire situation when ejecting a cartridge from a
> Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

Sure, but not by the method someone else described. By the method I
described.

>
> I wonder why conspiracists like Walt just flat-out refuse to believe that
> the HSCA replicated the dented lip when rapid-firing a Carcano rifle?
>

Replicated? Is there film of them replicating it?
Or just one anecdotal account?

> And John McAdams has said that he, too, has replicated the dented lip with
> a Carcano. And other people on these forums have said the same thing.
>

But not properly described the process of HOW it happens.
Steve Barber said that it happened to Todd Vaughan on every third shot.

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0a...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

>No, it doesn't and you can't reproduce that.

Yes it does and I have observed it dozens of times. Just because you have
never seen it in your limited shooting doesn?t mean it doesn?t occur.


>>The case is hot (more malleable), the ejector slams the empty case against

>>the metal of the receiver instead of the ejection port. When the empty case
>

>The receiver is behind the base of the shell, not in front of the lip.

I assume you are of the school that the case can?t be damaged while it is
backing up. You can damage your car while backing up and likewise the lip
of the empty case can be damaged while backing up or being withdrawn by
the bolt. I?m shocked that you weren?t aware of this rather simple fact.
To be sure we are on the same page I?m referring to the metal between the
chamber and the ejection port. The right side.


>>reaches the ejector port it is expelled from the receiver. I?ve seen it

>>happen with no jamming numerous times.
>>
>
>Nope. There is nothing inside the chamber which can dent the lip.

I didn?t say the chamber, I said the receiver. Of course the empty case
is secure in the chamber. When it (the case) is withdrawn from the
chamber by the bolt the ejector snaps the case to the right (on a right
hand action) and the case can hit the right side medal of the receiver.
Normally it hits the ejection port and is expelled without damage.


>> My old man?s Remington .270 semiautomatic was the worst rifle I?ve seen in
>> denting case lips without a jam. Explain that Marsh. I certainly wasn?t

>> operating the bolt too fast, too hard or incompletely since it was a
>> semiautomatic.
>>
>> You are wrong. Again. And you cannot prove the Carcano jammed that day in
>> Dallas.
>>
>
>The tape proves that the rifle jammed. The first two shots reloaded and
>fired within 1.66 seconds and then an unexplained gap of five seconds.

For all you know Oswald had to stop and scratch.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0a379b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Previously you have claimed (your I didn?t say that noted in advance) that
the bent case lip was the results of the shooter trying to work the bolt
too fast and thereby not ejecting the empty case. Now that would cause a
jam all right.

But your AR-7 is a semiautomatic. You weren?t working the bolt. So what
happened here General? I?m betting a feeding problem which has nothing to
do with what we are discussing.

>That is what happened to CE 543.

You don?t know what happened to CE-543. You have an opinion.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0a3011$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

You haven?t a clue as to what I have observed, leaving you conspicuously
unqualified to make this statement.

>>Tell me this Marsh. You fire three rounds with no problems. No jamming of the
>>rifle. You police your empty brass and one of the empty cases has a dented lip.
>> What happened.
>>
>
>Look at the CBS tests. Look at Todd Vaughan's tests. You fire two rounds
>and then the rifle jams. It takes you five seconds to clear the jam before
>you fire the third shot.
>
>You dented the lip after your second shot by trying to reload too quickly
>and jamming the empty cartridge back into the rifle.

Nice try Marsh but you are wrong again. I was shooting from the bench
working up loads. I let the barrel cool between shots, no rush
whatsoever. I loaded the rounds one at a time except for the one .270
semiauto. So?..you are wrong again.

Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/8/2012 11:25 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f0a3011$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

So you're not even testing a Mannlicher-Carcano because you don't have
one so your "test" is irrelevant.

> Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/8/2012 11:24 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f0a379b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

In other words you don't even know what an AR-7 is. Typical.
Of course it is a semiautomatic.

> happened here General? I?m betting a feeding problem which has nothing to
> do with what we are discussing.
>

It is the same process where the empty does not eject and gets jammed
back against the mouth of the chamber.

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0a...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

I knew that it was a rinky dink .22 that was semiautomatic so you were not
working the ?bolt? too fast. That is about all I need to know about it.

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0aa34b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

>
>On 1/8/2012 11:25 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>> In article<4f0a3011$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>>
>>> On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>>> In article<4f08...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/7/2012 3:23 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:

>>>>>> In article<8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-
730d7e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

Boy howdy, you got me there General. But extraction and ejection are
pretty standard procedures so be so kind and tell me what is so unique
about the Carcano that disqualifies my testing of say a Remington or
Winchester bolt rifle from being irrelevant?

Bill Clarke

[Jean Davison]

On Jan 8, 7:04 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article<4f08b...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

>
> >> On 1/7/2012 3:23 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:

> >>> In article<8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

Long ago when you claimed the dents happened "when the
empty cartridge gets jammed back into the rifle by mistake," Todd
replied:

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk, alt.assassination.jfk
From: "Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaughan2...@yahoo.com>
Date: 11 Jan 2006 15:31:55 -0500
Local: Wed, Jan 11 2006 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: Jean


Tony,

In my case I can assure you that it was not happening on any
noticible
jamming.

UNQUOTE

Todd said the dents occurred during the ejection process.
Same as Chad. Same as the HSCA. Not when the rifle jams, according
to them.


Jean

[Anthony Marsh]

According to them? You mean according to your fellow WC defenders who
never want to admit ANY facts?
During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the time.

>
>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/10/2012 12:53 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f0aa34b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Made differently.

[Jean Davison]

So you're claiming they're all liars, even the HSCA firearms
panel?? That's your best argument -- they're lying?? PROVE IT, Tony.

> During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the time.

So what?

Jean

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0c7e3e$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Weak Marsh. So the Carcano doesn?t have an ejector or what?

Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/10/2012 9:31 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f0c7e3e$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

The ejector is not the problem and it is not exactly the same as other
rifles.

[Anthony Marsh]

No, you seem incapable of understanding English. I said nothing about the
HSCA firearms panel all lying. But someone misrepresented what they did
and what they said. That is the lying.

> > During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the time.
>
> So what?
>

It proves that jamming is a common problem with that rifle. And why the
Hell are you admitting a simple fact like this when CBS tried to cover it
up for so many years? The cover-up is unraveling right before our very
eyes.

> Jean

[Jean Davison]

No surprise that you don't even attempt to prove your "liar"
claim. Nobody misrepresented. The firearms panel was quoted verbatim.
So what are you talking about?

Here's another HSCA quote:

"In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE
543 case (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139
rifle during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired
the rifle."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389

Is that statement a lie?

>
> >     >  During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the time.
>
> >             So what?
>
> It proves that jamming is a common problem with that rifle. And why the
> Hell are you admitting a simple fact like this when CBS tried to cover it
> up for so many years? The cover-up is unraveling right before our very
> eyes.

I think I first heard that around 1968.

Jean

[Bill Clarke]

In article <949f374d-e349-448e...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Jean Davison says...

>
>On Jan 11, 3:18=A0pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 1/10/2012 7:00 PM, Jean Davison wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> > On Jan 10, 1:01 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =A0wrote:

>> >> On 1/10/2012 9:53 AM, Jean Davison wrote:
>>

>> >>> On Jan 8, 7:04 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =A0 =A0wr=

>ote:
>> >>>> On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> In article<4f08b...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>
>> >>>>>> On 1/7/2012 3:23 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:

>> >>>>>>> In article<8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.googl=
>egroups.com>,
>> >>>>>>> Raymond says...
>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 5, 1:37=3DA0pm, Jean Davison<jean.davis...@gmail.com> =A0=
> =A0 =A0 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 5, 6:03=3DA0am, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net>=

> =A0 =A0 =A0 wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>> Much stuff snipped for space.
>>

>> >>>>>>>>>>> So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause th=
>ese dent=3D
>> >>>>>>>> ed
>> >>>>>>>>>>> lips. Good for you. =3DA0However this fact does cast a cloud =
>on your th=3D

>> >>>>>>>> eory
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that the gun jammed.
>>

>> >>>>>>>> THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSASSI=
>NATION
>> >>>>>>>> It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, =
>the
>> >>>>>>>> lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below th=
>e
>> >>>>>>>> barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY=

> case
>> >>>>>>>> that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>>

>> >>>>>>> The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wounds t=
>o JFK we
>> >>>>>>> can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through his=
> Carcano
>> >>>>>>> that day in Dallas. =A0From my personal experience and from an ex=
>cellent
>> >>>>>>> reference posted by Jean Davis the last time we plowed this groun=
>d with A.
>> >>>>>>> Marsh here is what happens; a complete round is inserted into the=
> chamber
>> >>>>>>> and fired. =A0As the empty case is withdrawn from the chamber the=
> ejector
>> >>>>>>> pushes the lip of the empty case into the receiver of the rifle b=
>efore it
>> >>>>>>> reaches the ejection port. =A0This ejection is what makes the bra=
>ss fly out
>> >>>>>>> of the ejection port. The brass is very hot at this time and the =
>ejector
>> >>>>>>> is strong. =A0It is strong enough to cause the case lip to be den=
>ted when it
>> >>>>>>> slams into the receiver. =A0So we have hot brass slamming into me=
>tal (the
>> >>>>>>> receiver). =A0This doesn?t occur that often because usually the e=
>mpty brass
>> >>>>>>> hits the ejection port and flies free without striking any metal =
>of the
>> >>>>>>> receiver.
>>
>> >>>>>> Wrong. That is ridiculous and you can't demonstrate it. The base i=
>s going
>> >>>>>> back towards the receiver, not the lip. The lip is dented when you=
> to load
>> >>>>>> it into the chamber and the lip hit the edge of the mouth of the c=
>hamber.
>> >>>>>> Used to happen sometimes on my AR-7 which would cause the rifle to=
> jam.
>>
>> >>>>> You?re the one wrong here Marsh. =A0I have demonstrated many times =
>exactly what I
>> >>>>> have described back when I was hand loading and shooting numerous r=
>ifles. =A0I?m

>> >>>>> sorry you were not there to see it.
>>
>> >>>> No, you didn't.
>>

>> >>>>> Tell me this Marsh. =A0You fire three rounds with no problems. =A0N=
>o jamming of the
>> >>>>> rifle. =A0You police your empty brass and one of the empty cases ha=

>s a dented lip.
>> >>>>> What happened.
>>

>> >>>> Look at the CBS tests. Look at Todd Vaughan's tests. You fire two ro=
>unds
>> >>>> and then the rifle jams. It takes you five seconds to clear the jam =

>before
>> >>>> you fire the third shot.
>>

>> >>>> You dented the lip after your second shot by trying to reload too qu=

>ickly
>> >>>> and jamming the empty cartridge back into the rifle.
>>

>> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Long ago when you claimed the dents happe=
>ned "when the
>> >>> empty cartridge gets jammed back into the rifle by mistake," =A0Todd

>> >>> replied:
>>
>> >>> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk, alt.assassination.jfk
>> >>> From: "Todd W. Vaughan"<twvaughan2...@yahoo.com>
>> >>> Date: 11 Jan 2006 15:31:55 -0500
>> >>> Local: Wed, Jan 11 2006 2:31 pm
>> >>> Subject: Re: Jean
>>
>> >>> Tony,
>>
>> >>> In my case I can assure you that it was not happening on any
>> >>> noticible
>> >>> jamming.
>>
>> >>> UNQUOTE
>>

>> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Todd said the dents occurred during the ejection =
>process.
>> >>> Same as Chad. =A0Same as the HSCA. =A0 Not when the rifle jams, accor=

>ding
>> >>> to them.
>>
>> >>> Jean
>>
>> >> According to them? You mean according to your fellow WC defenders who
>> >> never want to admit ANY facts?
>>

>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0So you're claiming they're all liars, even the H=
>SCA firearms
>> > panel?? =A0That's your best argument -- they're lying?? =A0PROVE IT, To=

>ny.
>>
>> No, you seem incapable of understanding English. I said nothing about the
>> HSCA firearms panel all lying. But someone misrepresented what they did
>> and what they said. That is the lying.
>
> No surprise that you don't even attempt to prove your "liar"
>claim. Nobody misrepresented. The firearms panel was quoted verbatim.
>So what are you talking about?
>
> Here's another HSCA quote:
>
> "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE
>543 case (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139
>rifle during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired
>the rifle."
>

>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=3D82&relP=
>ageId=3D389

>
> Is that statement a lie?
>
> >

>> > =A0 =A0 > =A0During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the t=
>ime.
>>
>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 So what?

>>
>> It proves that jamming is a common problem with that rifle. And why the
>> Hell are you admitting a simple fact like this when CBS tried to cover it
>> up for so many years? The cover-up is unraveling right before our very
>> eyes.
>
> I think I first heard that around 1968.
>
>Jean

Ouch! Did that hurt, Marsh? She just handed you your head once again.

Here, read it again. Pay particular attention to "was made by the CE 139
rifle during EJECTION".

"In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
(one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired the
rifle."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389

Bill Clarke

[Bill Clarke]

In article <4f0df010$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Here's another HSCA quote:

"In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE
543 case (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139
rifle during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired
the rifle."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389

I doubt that the ejector on a Remington 700 and a Winchester 70 are exactly the
same. However they both work like each other.

Bill Clarke

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/12/2012 8:14 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<4f0df010$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...

Sure, during ejection, when they failed to eject the cartridge and it
got jammed back against the mouth of the chamber.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/12/2012 12:24 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article<949f374d-e349-448e...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

Exactly. When the shooter fails to eject the shell and it gets jammed
back into the rifle.

> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389
>
> Bill Clarke
>
>

[Jean Davison]

On Jan 12, 4:50 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 1/12/2012 12:24 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article<949f374d-e349-448e-ab18-c9886f6f9...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

> >>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=3D8...

> >> ageId=3D389
>
> >>            Is that statement a lie?
>
> >>>> =A0 =A0>  =A0During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1/3 of the t=
> >> ime.
>
> >>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 So what?
>
> >>> It proves that jamming is a common problem with that rifle. And why the
> >>> Hell are you admitting a simple fact like this when CBS tried to cover it
> >>> up for so many years? The cover-up is unraveling right before our very
> >>> eyes.
>
> >>           I think I first heard that around 1968.
>
> >> Jean
>
> > Ouch!  Did that hurt, Marsh?  She just handed you your head once again.
>
> > Here, read it again.  Pay particular attention to "was made by the CE 139
> > rifle during EJECTION".
>
> > "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
> > (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
> > during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired the
> > rifle."
>
> Exactly. When the shooter fails to eject the shell and it gets jammed
> back into the rifle.
>

So you claim, but that's not what the firearms panel said.


Jean

[Anthony Marsh]

The firearms panel did not say that.

> Jean

[Bill Clarke]

In article <caf0ac94-bf82-46ff...@o9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Jean Davison says...

>
>On Jan 12, 4:50=A0pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 1/12/2012 12:24 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> > In article<949f374d-e349-448e-ab18-c9886f6f9...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroup=

>s.com>,
>> > Jean Davison says...
>>

>> >> On Jan 11, 3:18=3DA0pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =A0wr=

>ote:
>> >>> On 1/10/2012 7:00 PM, Jean Davison wrote:
>>

>> >>>> On Jan 10, 1:01 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =A0=3DA=

>0wrote:
>> >>>>> On 1/10/2012 9:53 AM, Jean Davison wrote:
>>

>> >>>>>> On Jan 8, 7:04 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> =A0=3D=
>A0 =3DA0wr=3D

>> >> ote:
>> >>>>>>> On 1/8/2012 10:18 AM, Bill Clarke wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>> In article<4f08b...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On 1/7/2012 3:23 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>> In article<8ea7432c-6e8f-4717-b71d-730d7ee2e...@t13g2000vbt.go=
>ogl=3D
>> >> egroups.com>,
>> >>>>>>>>>> Raymond says...
>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 5, 1:37=3D3DA0pm, Jean Davison<jean.davis...@gmail.com=
>> =A0=3DA0=3D
>> >> =3DA0 =3DA0 wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 5, 6:03=3D3DA0am, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast=
>.net>=3D

>> >> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Much stuff snipped for space.
>>

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you now accept the fact that the ejector can also cause=
> th=3D
>> >> ese dent=3D3D
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ed
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lips. Good for you. =3D3DA0However this fact does cast a c=
>loud =3D
>> >> on your th=3D3D

>> >>>>>>>>>>> eory
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the gun jammed.
>>

>> >>>>>>>>>>> THE DENTED SHELL: HARD EVIDENCE OF CONSPIRACY IN THE JFK ASSA=
>SSI=3D
>> >> NATION
>> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fire=
>d, =3D
>> >> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below=
> th=3D
>> >> e
>> >>>>>>>>>>> barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EM=
>PTY=3D

>> >> case
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.
>>

>> >>>>>>>>>> The problem with this, Raymond, is that by observing the wound=
>s t=3D
>> >> o JFK we
>> >>>>>>>>>> can be assured that Oswald wasn?t jacking empty cases through =
>his=3D
>> >> Carcano
>> >>>>>>>>>> that day in Dallas. =3DA0From my personal experience and from =
>an ex=3D
>> >> cellent
>> >>>>>>>>>> reference posted by Jean Davis the last time we plowed this gr=
>oun=3D
>> >> d with A.
>> >>>>>>>>>> Marsh here is what happens; a complete round is inserted into =
>the=3D
>> >> chamber
>> >>>>>>>>>> and fired. =3DA0As the empty case is withdrawn from the chambe=
>r the=3D
>> >> ejector
>> >>>>>>>>>> pushes the lip of the empty case into the receiver of the rifl=
>e b=3D
>> >> efore it
>> >>>>>>>>>> reaches the ejection port. =3DA0This ejection is what makes th=
>e bra=3D
>> >> ss fly out
>> >>>>>>>>>> of the ejection port. The brass is very hot at this time and t=
>he =3D
>> >> ejector
>> >>>>>>>>>> is strong. =3DA0It is strong enough to cause the case lip to b=
>e den=3D
>> >> ted when it
>> >>>>>>>>>> slams into the receiver. =3DA0So we have hot brass slamming in=
>to me=3D
>> >> tal (the
>> >>>>>>>>>> receiver). =3DA0This doesn?t occur that often because usually =
>the e=3D
>> >> mpty brass
>> >>>>>>>>>> hits the ejection port and flies free without striking any met=
>al =3D
>> >> of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> receiver.
>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Wrong. That is ridiculous and you can't demonstrate it. The bas=
>e i=3D
>> >> s going
>> >>>>>>>>> back towards the receiver, not the lip. The lip is dented when =
>you=3D
>> >> to load
>> >>>>>>>>> it into the chamber and the lip hit the edge of the mouth of th=
>e c=3D
>> >> hamber.
>> >>>>>>>>> Used to happen sometimes on my AR-7 which would cause the rifle=
> to=3D
>> >> jam.
>>
>> >>>>>>>> You?re the one wrong here Marsh. =3DA0I have demonstrated many t=
>imes =3D
>> >> exactly what I
>> >>>>>>>> have described back when I was hand loading and shooting numerou=
>s r=3D
>> >> ifles. =3DA0I?m

>> >>>>>>>> sorry you were not there to see it.
>>
>> >>>>>>> No, you didn't.
>>

>> >>>>>>>> Tell me this Marsh. =3DA0You fire three rounds with no problems.=
> =3DA0N=3D
>> >> o jamming of the
>> >>>>>>>> rifle. =3DA0You police your empty brass and one of the empty cas=
>es ha=3D

>> >> s a dented lip.
>> >>>>>>>> What happened.
>>

>> >>>>>>> Look at the CBS tests. Look at Todd Vaughan's tests. You fire two=
> ro=3D
>> >> unds
>> >>>>>>> and then the rifle jams. It takes you five seconds to clear the j=
>am =3D

>> >> before
>> >>>>>>> you fire the third shot.
>>

>> >>>>>>> You dented the lip after your second shot by trying to reload too=
> qu=3D

>> >> ickly
>> >>>>>>> and jamming the empty cartridge back into the rifle.
>>

>> >>>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Long ago when you claime=
>d the dents happe=3D
>> >> ned "when the
>> >>>>>> empty cartridge gets jammed back into the rifle by mistake," =3DA0=

>Todd
>> >>>>>> replied:
>>
>> >>>>>> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk, alt.assassination.jfk
>> >>>>>> From: "Todd W. Vaughan"<twvaughan2...@yahoo.com>
>> >>>>>> Date: 11 Jan 2006 15:31:55 -0500
>> >>>>>> Local: Wed, Jan 11 2006 2:31 pm
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Jean
>>
>> >>>>>> Tony,
>>
>> >>>>>> In my case I can assure you that it was not happening on any
>> >>>>>> noticible
>> >>>>>> jamming.
>>
>> >>>>>> UNQUOTE
>>

>> >>>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Todd said the dents occurred during =
>the ejection =3D
>> >> process.
>> >>>>>> Same as Chad. =3DA0Same as the HSCA. =3DA0 Not when the rifle jams=
>, accor=3D
>> >> ding
>> >>>>>> to them.
>>
>> >>>>>> Jean
>>
>> >>>>> According to them? You mean according to your fellow WC defenders w=

>ho
>> >>>>> never want to admit ANY facts?
>>

>> >>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0So you're claiming they're all li=
>ars, even the H=3D
>> >> SCA firearms
>> >>>> panel?? =3DA0That's your best argument -- they're lying?? =3DA0PROVE=
> IT, To=3D
>> >> ny.
>>
>> >>> No, you seem incapable of understanding English. I said nothing about=
> the
>> >>> HSCA firearms panel all lying. But someone misrepresented what they d=

>id
>> >>> and what they said. That is the lying.
>>

>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 No surprise that you don't even attempt to prove y=
>our "liar"
>> >> claim. =A0Nobody misrepresented. =A0The firearms panel was quoted verb=

>atim.
>> >> So what are you talking about?
>>

>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Here's another HSCA quote:
>>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0"In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the m=
>outh of the CE
>> >> 543 case (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 13=
>9
>> >> rifle during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fir=
>ed
>> >> the rifle."
>>
>> >>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=3D3D8=
>...
>> >> ageId=3D3D389
>>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Is that statement a lie?
>>
>> >>>> =3DA0 =3DA0> =A0=3DA0During the CBS tests their rifle jammed about 1=
>/3 of the t=3D
>> >> ime.
>>
>> >>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 So what?
>>
>> >>> It proves that jamming is a common problem with that rifle. And why t=
>he
>> >>> Hell are you admitting a simple fact like this when CBS tried to cove=
>r it
>> >>> up for so many years? The cover-up is unraveling right before our ver=
>y
>> >>> eyes.
>>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I think I first heard that around 1968.
>>
>> >> Jean
>>
>> > Ouch! =A0Did that hurt, Marsh? =A0She just handed you your head once ag=
>ain.
>>
>> > Here, read it again. =A0Pay particular attention to "was made by the CE=

> 139
>> > rifle during EJECTION".
>>
>> > "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
>> > (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
>> > during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test- fired the
>> > rifle."
>>
>> Exactly. When the shooter fails to eject the shell and it gets jammed
>> back into the rifle.
>>
>
>So you claim, but that's not what the firearms panel said.
>
>
>Jean

Does Marsh have some excellent footwork or what? The old side step
shuffle again. The man is very good at it. Of course he should be since
he gets a lot of practice at it.

Bill Clarke

[Jean Davison]

Excuse me?? Are you actually claiming that this quote isn't
from the firearms panel?

"In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
(one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test-fired the
rifle."

It's paragraph 218 on this page:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389

Better yet, here's the firearms panel's entire testimony
and report in a searchable format:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/firearm.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm

Please point out anything that supports your claim that the
dent in CE 543 was caused by a jam.

<cue dance music, please!>

Jean





>
>
> > Jean- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Anthony Marsh]

It does mean what you claim is means.
You are trying to pull a Harris here.

> "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
> (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
> during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test-fired the
> rifle."
>
> It's paragraph 218 on this page:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&relPageId=389
>
> Better yet, here's the firearms panel's entire testimony
> and report in a searchable format:
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/firearm.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm
>
> Please point out anything that supports your claim that the
> dent in CE 543 was caused by a jam.
>
> <cue dance music, please!>
>

The firearms panel just noted that the dent happened during their tests.
They never attempted to identify WHY it happened. I have.

> Jean
>
>
>

[Jean Davison]

You are pulling an Anthony Marsh. I *quoted* the panel.
I didn't claim they meant something they did not say.

>
>
>
>
> > "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
> > (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
> > during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test-fired the
> > rifle."
>
> >             It's paragraph 218 on this page:
>

> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&...

>
> >             Better yet, here's the firearms panel's entire testimony
> > and report in a searchable format:
>
> >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/firearm.htm
>
> >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm
>
> >            Please point out anything that supports your claim that the
> > dent in CE 543 was caused by a jam.
>
> >            <cue dance music, please!>
>
> The firearms panel just noted that the dent happened during their tests.
> They never attempted to identify WHY it happened. I have.

What evidence do you have? CBS's rifles frequently
jammed, and there was a brief pause between Oswald's last two
shots. Anything else?

The firearms panel defined "eject" in their glossary as
"The act of throwing the expended cartridge case clear of the action
during the firing process."

Here's their explanation again:

QUOTE:

UNQUOTE

Do you think they were too stupid to notice or mention
that the rifle jammed during this process?

[Anthony Marsh]

No, you are just reciting what I said a long time ago and then claiming
that I am wrong.

There is your clue. It only happens when trying to reload too quickly.

> firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being closed and then
> with considerable speed and pressure being applied, opening it and
> pulling the bolt to the rear and holding it to my side, and in a
> manner very rapidly, kicking the cartridge back and ejecting the
> cartridge and causing it fall to the floor.
> Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
> Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
> Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt forward, the
> cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing tube holding the
> bolt handle and then pulling it back with a violent move duplicating
> what I deemed to be a rapid sequence of firing, operating the handle
> to rapidly fire the firearm.
> UNQUOTE
>
> Do you think they were too stupid to notice or mention
> that the rifle jammed during this process?
>

Yes.

[Jean Davison]

No. I'm talking about your claim, "The firearms panel did
not say that."

>
>

> >>> "In the opinion of the panel, the dent in the mouth of the CE 543 case
> >>> (one of three found on the sixth floor) was made by the CE 139 rifle
> >>> during ejection. The panel duplicated the dent when it test-fired the
> >>> rifle."
>
> >>>              It's paragraph 218 on this page:
>
> >>>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=82&...
>
> >>>              Better yet, here's the firearms panel's entire testimony
> >>> and report in a searchable format:
>
> >>>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/firearm.htm
>
> >>>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm
>
> >>>             Please point out anything that supports your claim that the
> >>> dent in CE 543 was caused by a jam.
>
> >>>             <cue dance music, please!>
>
> >> The firearms panel just noted that the dent happened during their tests.
> >> They never attempted to identify WHY it happened. I have.
>
> >             What evidence do you have?    CBS's rifles frequently
> > jammed, and there was a brief pause between Oswald's last two
> > shots.    Anything else?

Anything else? Apparently not.

>
> >             The firearms panel defined "eject" in their glossary as
> > "The act of throwing the expended cartridge case clear of the action
> > during the firing process."
>
> > Here's their explanation again:
>
> > QUOTE:
>
> > Mr. MCDONALD. Are you saying then when your panel test fired CE-139,
> > out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented mouth?
> > Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Yes, sir, that occurred during the ejection process in
> > firing the weapon. If I may.
> > Mr. McDONALD. Yes, please.
> > Mr. CHAMPAGNE. The ejection is that process whereby the bolt handle is
> > moved to the rear to eject the expended cartridge case, ejecting the
> > cartridge case out of the weapon.
> > Mr. MCDONALD. Now, when you tested the rifle, the panel tested the
> > rifle, of your panel members, who ejected the shell or cartridge
> > case that came out with the dent?
> > Mr. CHAMPAGNE. Mr. Lutz.
> > Mr. MCDONALD. Would Mr. Lutz please come forward and demonstrate to us
> > how you ejected to cause a dent in the test cartridge case.
> > Mr. LUTZ. The particular amount of force that I used to extract and
> > eject the cartridge case from the weapon was much in the manner that I
> > would consider to be employed during an attempt to rapidly fire the
>
> There is your clue. It only happens when trying to reload too quickly.

And you know this because CBS's rifles frequently jammed and
Oswald took longer for his third shot?

>
> > firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being closed and then
> > with considerable speed and pressure being applied, opening it and
> > pulling the bolt to the rear and holding it to my side, and in a
> > manner very rapidly, kicking the cartridge back and ejecting the
> > cartridge and causing it fall to the floor.
> > Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
> > Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
> > Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt forward, the
> > cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing tube holding the
> > bolt handle and then pulling it back with a violent move duplicating
> > what I deemed to be a rapid sequence of firing, operating the handle
> > to rapidly fire the firearm.
> > UNQUOTE
>
> >               Do you think they were too stupid to notice or mention
> > that the rifle jammed during this process?
>
> Yes.

Sure they were!

Dented shells are fairly common on the rec.guns forum. For
example, this thread on a dented .45 shell:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/b816e3b3f7404cdf/726e2b75a674007d?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns

Virtually always, this is caused by the ejected casing hitting the
ejection port.

*****************************

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710cec0335/ad0d445bd5af569f?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns

"My newly acquired MAK-90 dents the cases. I think it is the
ejected case hitting the reciever
cover. Anyone confirm or deny?"

"I also have a MAK-90 that dents the cases. They do indeed hit the
receiver cover as they are ejected."

****************************

Similar problem with a different rifle:

"HK makes (or used to make) a buffer that clips over the top of
the frame so that the brass hits a rubber cushion instead of the edge of
the ejection port."

"The port buffer is an accessory sold by H&K to help minimize
the damage to the brass due to the ejection process."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710cec0335/ad0d445bd5af569f?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns

**************************
Here's the port buffer they're talking about:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Port-Buffer-For-All-HK-308-Receivers-p1271.htm

Why should I believe you, Tony, and not the HSCA panel, Bill
Clarke, Todd, Chad, and the other gun owners I've just quoted?


Jean

[Anthony Marsh]

The firearms panel did not describe it the way you described it.
Maybe that's because you've never used a bolt action rifle before.

Not that relevant.

> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/b816e3b3f7404cdf/726e2b75a674007d?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns
>
> Virtually always, this is caused by the ejected casing hitting the
> ejection port.
>

On that particular model.

> *****************************
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710cec0335/ad0d445bd5af569f?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns
>
> "My newly acquired MAK-90 dents the cases. I think it is the
> ejected case hitting the reciever
> cover. Anyone confirm or deny?"
>
> "I also have a MAK-90 that dents the cases. They do indeed hit the
> receiver cover as they are ejected."
>

Dented in what way. Show me the picture.

> ****************************
>
> Similar problem with a different rifle:
>
> "HK makes (or used to make) a buffer that clips over the top of
> the frame so that the brass hits a rubber cushion instead of the edge of
> the ejection port."
>
> "The port buffer is an accessory sold by H&K to help minimize
> the damage to the brass due to the ejection process."
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710cec0335/ad0d445bd5af569f?hl=en&q=eject+cartridge+OR+shell+dent+group:rec.guns
>

Different problem.

> **************************
> Here's the port buffer they're talking about:
>
> http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Port-Buffer-For-All-HK-308-Receivers-p1271.htm
>
> Why should I believe you, Tony, and not the HSCA panel, Bill
> Clarke, Todd, Chad, and the other gun owners I've just quoted?
>
>

Because they are WC defenders like you who will never admit any simple
fact least it suggest conspiracy.

> Jean

[Jean Davison]

I've asked you several times now to back up this claim. QUOTE
verbatim what I said that you think misstates the firearms panel's
statement. Don't think I'm going to stop asking you to do this.

> Maybe that's because you've never used a bolt action rifle before.
>

You own or owned an M-C, as I recall. Have you ever fired it?

Yes or no, please?

>
> >>> firearm. The cartridge was fired with the bolt being closed and then
> >>> with considerable speed and pressure being applied, opening it and
> >>> pulling the bolt to the rear and holding it to my side, and in a
> >>> manner very rapidly, kicking the cartridge back and ejecting the
> >>> cartridge and causing it fall to the floor.
> >>> Mr. PREYER. Mr. Edgar.
> >>> Mr. EDGAR. Mr. Lutz, would you turn so we can see it.
> >>> Mr. LUTZ. In this manner, where I have grasped the bolt forward, the
> >>> cartridge had been fired, moved away from the firing tube holding the
> >>> bolt handle and then pulling it back with a violent move duplicating
> >>> what I deemed to be a rapid sequence of firing, operating the handle
> >>> to rapidly fire the firearm.
> >>> UNQUOTE
>
> >>>                Do you think they were too stupid to notice or mention
> >>> that the rifle jammed during this process?
>
> >> Yes.
>
> >           Sure they were!
>
> >           Dented shells are fairly common on the rec.guns forum.   For
> > example, this thread on a dented .45 shell:
>
> Not that relevant.

That may be, but then neither was your AR-7 example.

>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/b816e3b3f74...

>
> > Virtually always, this is caused by the ejected casing hitting the
> > ejection port.
>
> On that particular model.

True, but it shows that rifle shells can be dented during
the ejection process without any jamming.

>
> >          *****************************
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710ce...

>
> >     "My newly acquired MAK-90 dents the cases.  I think it is the
> > ejected case hitting the reciever
> > cover.  Anyone confirm or deny?"
>
> >       "I also have a MAK-90 that dents the cases. They do indeed hit the
> > receiver cover as they are ejected."
>
> Dented in what way. Show me the picture.

Read the thread.

>
> > ****************************
>
> > Similar problem with a different rifle:
>
> >           "HK makes (or used to make) a buffer that clips over the top of
> > the frame so that the brass hits a rubber cushion instead of the edge of
> > the ejection port."
>
> >            "The port buffer is an accessory sold by H&K to help minimize
> > the damage to the brass due to the ejection process."
>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thread/13e2a0710ce...
>
> Different problem.

Same problem (dented shell), different weapon.

>
> > **************************
> >            Here's the port buffer they're talking about:
>

> >http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Port-Buffer-For-All-HK-308-Receivers-p...

>
> >             Why should I believe you, Tony, and not the HSCA panel, Bill
> > Clarke, Todd, Chad, and the other gun owners I've just quoted?
>
> Because they are WC defenders like you who will never admit any simple
> fact least it suggest conspiracy

Anyone who disagrees is either lying or stupid, right,
Tony?

I have no problem conceding anything that's established
fact. I've already "admitted" that CBS's rifles frequently jammed and
that there was a pause between Oswald's last two shots. Neither fact is
evidence that *Oswald's* rifle jammed on 11/22 or that the dent in CE 543

was caused by a jam.

Jean