> > Kinda amazing that they would be so 'on guard' at that time. Were they
> > even thinking 'sniper'? Nobody else seemed concerned about snipers at
> > that time.
>
> Not "on guard," just watching the back of the TSBD from about
> 100 to 150 yards away after hearing shots from that direction. Romack came
> forward because he believed Worrell's account as reported in a newspaper
> was "hatched up." Rackley agreed. They didn't see a man run out the
> back, or Worrell coming in their direction. You can find their testimony
> and Haygood's in vol. VI or here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
>
> >And who is this Haygood? The cop that rode up the grassy
> > knoll? Seems he would haven't talked to these two til later.
>
> Yes, Haygood went into the railroad yards first, found
> nothing, then returned to his cycle. A witness told him the shots
> came from the TSBD and he called this in at 12:35, then drove to the
> rear of the building.
>
>
Ok, I'll play along here. He is somewhere with his motorcycle and
calls in about a witness about hearing shots. How long does he talk
from 12:35? Looks like he doesn't go to the back of the TSBD right
away but goes in front and starts delegating things for awhile. How
long does this take? He then goes in back of the TSBD and a fellow is
not 150 yards away but is at the door. He says he's been there circa
five minutes. So Haygood maybe gets there at what, 12:37-8?
Now, unless S & A are lying, they do eventually come out this Houston
St. dock. Certainly with the girls going down stairs before T & B go
up the stairs via proof of docmentation...that man should have seen
something......but he didn't. Logical conclusion, he wasn't at the
door before S & A went out or he was at a wrong door.
How do we know this besides the new found documentation? Styles and
Adams leave quickly as witnesses describe, between themselves and
their boss fairly quickly after the shots. They are followed out
right away as their boss is in pursuit...and they are gone down the
stairs at least out of her sight as she approaches her storage area
she wants to get something. They get down stairs by one minute, and
leave before T & B come and before one fellow can station at one door
at 12:32 They go around investigating down by the railroad yard and
get turned away, then return and it's estimated at 5 minutes. That
makes it 12:37. Styles goes back in while Adams talks to two
employees, Molina and Avery as she is by a cop with a radio. Let's
say it's 12:38. She hears that shots are from 4th floor....blah
blah. The WC states that the only transmission by a policeman about a
4th floor occurs at 12:38.
QUOTE:
>
> "I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him
> how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes
> or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that
> they had not."
>
> UNQUOTE
>
> >And what
> > door were they watching,....weren't there like 4 doors? And it would seem
> > they weren't too astute as James Worrell did see someone come out the back
> > door (a talked about suspect) when he left the front of the TSBD (scared)
> > and went around the block to the back of the TSBD? Why didn't they see
> > what Worrell saw? At best, this sounds ...flimsy.
>
> Since there's conflicting testimony, I'm not sure Worrell saw
> anyone exit the back door.
>
>
I'm not sure this man could guard 4 doors standing right next to one.
I do believe Worrell who is stating the truth when he first says he's
below the sixth floor window and hearing shots and seeing muzzle fire
is telling the truth. He is in the Altgens photo with him shading his
eyes and looking up at just what he states he is telling us. Before
the shots are stopping fire, he leaves, and goes down Houston to
Pacific and stays there. He heard 4 shots btw. He sees a man come
out the back of the TSBD, and gets into a running pace, describing him
and his attire which is a sport coat. Man seen in 6th floor window
before shooting wearing a sportcoat. If I'm not mistaken, the man in
the sport coat is seen going down Commerce St. where he gets in a
vehice. Time estimated after shooting...3 minutes. I'm thinking this
one door watcher isn't watching what could be many doors or possibly a
side of the building that can be construed as 'in back of the TSBD',
as I certainly believe the account of James Worrell.
>
> > > > > > > The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > > > > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > > > > > mind you, but the 2nd floor.
>
> > > > > > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it. How
> > > > > > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > > > > > the building. It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > > > > > he did anything. He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > > > > > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
> > > > > Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> > > > > and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> > > > > than the reenactment showed. Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> > > > > outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>
> > > > Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
> > > > later and the girls went down quickly.
>
> > > The author says Garner "appeared credible and without any
> > > reason to embellish," which actually doesn't mean much. Credible
> > > people with no reason to lie are very often simply wrong.
>
> > This was in document form already, which was a new find...so it's etched
> > in stone. What is not, is how long she stayed on the floor before going
> > somewhere else. She was astute enough to know what she went out on the
> > floor for, when she followed S & A across the room.
>
> Are you referring to the letter saying she saw T&B come
> upstairs after the women left? Being in a document doesn't mean
> something is "etched in stone."
>
A lot to be said about that, as such potentially damaging testimony is
not attended to. Why? They have already put in testimony that is
damaging to Victoria Adams' credibility by inserting an event that
never happened, the Shelley/Lovelady meeting...as attested by both
girls. They already lied by inserting this in testimony and we can
see why, to discredit their timelines, which btw is not part of their
original statements, and only inserted by one Leavell of DPD so Belin
can run with this at WC time. Here is a letter that not only has
correction errors by Adams, it also has this damaging timeline enigma
for the WC. What do they do? Don't call in Styles or Garner to even
try to alleviate what is part of a document that is taken by this
typist and is attested by another, through someone i believe is higher
than Belin....Rankin? and a Texas rep. or senator. Oh my oh my.
They had quite a panoramic view of the whole Plaza. Besides when
Adams and Styles got outside, it was commented by Adams that she saw
the people heading there, and decided to go where they were going.
And why wouldn't they start going as is given? Why would they want to
wait any longer? Adams never changed her original 15-30 seconds of
'getting going'. Why? because she never thought it was relevant to
do so. She did however, state it to be a lesser time when she thought
about it more precisely.
This is on the way to the stairwell for one. I know of no passenger
elevators that one calls for two. Freight elevators yes, and
passenger elevators one pushes a button. As I stated this couldn't
have been more than a blip as Garner has stated she followed right
behind the girls and when she got to the area of the stairs they were
already out of sight, with their loud heels going. As I see that, she
pushes a button, and when you push a button you get an immediate
response of an elevator mechanically operating to come.
> While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was
> blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us
> knowing about it. All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might
> have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very
> little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first
> few minutes after the assassination.
>
Except eveyone who has stated that when people use the stairs, they
know it, because it is very loud...and if one is an astute reseacher
they might take this to other's who were close enough to the stairwell
to hear things.
> If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor
> via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have
> to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably
> longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy
> Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of
> the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection
> of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly
> possible we did see them where Vickie said we did - near the freight
> elevator.
>
> .... UNQUOTE
>
> More here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/6110c70c39e4...
>
My opinion is that if one can't differentiate between as she even
suggested 15-20 minutes to 15 seconds, then there is something wrong.
She is either retarded, going along with anyone especially when Adams
is dead to keep people away from getting her too involved with
harrassing timelines (she knew how Adams was harrassed), or she was
just having a good old fun bs'ing via an end run, to see how much she
could jerk their chain.
If you read the book, which can be ordered for cheap on kindle, or
even Ernest shows you how to get it for free on differing
sites...you'll see how extensive Belin goes to spend time on this
issue and to subvert it. The WC was noted for not calling key
witnesses. Why wouldn't you call people that were directly in the
path of the accused and could be the most important witnesses in the
case? They called B & T and Shelley and Lovelady....why not call the
others that were between the floor of shooting and the escape route to
the bottom of the TSBD witnesses???? It only stands to reason that
they would be the most important witnesses, and they were ignored,
except Adams who was not just misquoted, but had testimony inserted
that she never said, and was harassed and had them thumb their noses
at her. Ernest always had the theory because it didn't make sense
what they basically said with the timelines of Shelley, Lovelady and
Adams. Like a good researcher, he could care less about what the WC
said or did, they wanted more...and that's what he did, went for the
witnesses that researchers clamor for..Holland, Adams, and even the
family of one of the WC people because of what signals he was giving
off.
>
> > > It's well established that memories change. Once they
> > > change, someone's earlier account seems foreign or unfamiliar to that
> > > person. That's not my opinion, it's what the research shows. Here's
> > > one article, e.g.:
>
> > >
http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=57592
>
> > > There are many examples of how JFK witnesses' stories have
> > > changed over the years. Somebody ought to do a study of it.
>
> > Adams never changed.
>
> How can you be sure? I found this DPD interview before she
> testified in which she mentioned seeing Shelley and also mentioned
> both an "elevator" and a "freight elevator."
>
>
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1017-001.gif
>
Because from Leavell to Belin..it was fabricated. Look at her earlier
stuff.
> > She always asked why Styles was never called in all
> > her dealings,and she was astounded and newly disallusioned when the WC
> > came out which she bought. Other than Garner being too old to remembe
> > specific's that she recalled earlier, it's understandable, and yet she is
> > able still to remember some quality stuff even after 80 years of age.
>
> How do you know it's "quality stuff"?
>
Because there is only so much that one can do when the shots go off.
You can forget faces that day, but you can't forget what you did, and
that can translate into a fairly precise timeline.
> > > > It might be of interest to some
> > > > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > > > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building. Maybe Oswald just
> > > > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > > > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > > > coming up the stairs? More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > > > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > > > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > > > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > > > agoin'?
>
> > > I'm not sure Biffle was quoting Truly or how accurately.
>
> > > Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near
> > > the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that
> > > bad luck or what?
>
> > Well, if it was a planned conspiracy to have a patsy the eventual
> > culprit....I think they would want him in the 'route'.
>
> So they said, "Listen, Lee, be sure to go up to the
> lunchroom at 12:31?" And he says, "Okay"?
>
>
It's really too hard to say. It would depend on his foreknowledge
which I believe is true. If true, then he might have had some minor
role or been told not to go outside. Or maybe they told him nothing,
and found him to be a good patsy after he left the building. One of
the most glaring things not discussed in this case is the potential
for guilt and not shooting. People are always prone to be all guilty
or all innocent. The answer, I believe, lies in-between.
>
> > There are threads that infer that Oswald was on the first floor during the
> > shooting, and that Baker, Truly, and Fritz had to quickly get in
> > line...
>
> So the plotters say in effect, "We want you to help frame an
> innocent man for the President's murder." And they "quickly get in
> line"?
>
No, they say, especially after Oswald's death, we have our man, and
don't make any waves or else...from the FBI to the DPD to the WC....
> >Might look up one that's like Oswald Confronted Leaving The TSBD At
> > The Front Door. Here's one with Greg Parker about the two separate
> > confrontations with Baker, one on an upper floor that can be inferred as
> > an escaper....
>
> >
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jfk-f1/oswald-s-two-cop-encou...
>
> Not plausible, imo. Just one example, there were people in
> the lobby when Baker met up with Truly. Nobody saw this
> "confrontation" at the front door.
>
>
O. Campbell, R. Truly. J. Norman all at least give damaging first-
floor type statements, as well as Biffle overhearing Truly.
CJ
Jean