Oswald photographed in TSBD doorway afterall?
charles wallace
The controversial photograph by James Altgens is estimated to have been
taken at the equivalent time of Zapruder frame 255. A blow-up of the
person in the TSBD doorway in that photo who is considered to be Billy
Lovelady is shown on page 186 in the book "The Killing Of A President" by
Robert Groden. In the blow-up you can see that this person Lovelady is at
the extreme left hand side of the entrance opening. You can see his left
arm going around the black man who is on the step or steps below and in
front of him. The black man's face shows up at the belly height of
Lovelady. Now the problem. Dave Wiegman started filming in the plaza
after he heard the third shot I believe he has been quoted as saying.
Well, he could be mistaken in his memory and could have started before the
third shot. In the book "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask on page
373 Trask states "It would appear through careful analysis of this film,
and aided by the research done by Richard Sprague and Gary Mack on the
timing of the sequence, that Wiegman began filming a little over three
seconds prior to the President being hit in the head." Z313- Z255= 58
frames. 58/ 18.3 frames per second (the filming rate) = 3.17 seconds.
Okay, look at the photo (a frame of the film) on page 373 in Trask's book
which is at the start of the film. Lovelady is not near the black man who
is seen on the left side of the TSBD entrance. In the TKOAP blow-up there
is a white man in a suit and tie immediately to Lovelady's left. I
believe this is Bill Shelley. How can these two people (Lovelady and
Shelley) appear next to the black man without the time to move
there???????
I thought earlier that Wiegman just started his film even earlier than
Z255. This is wrong. The Zapruder film at Z133 shows the Vice
President's car turning from Houston to Elm. There are three cars and
gaps between the VP car and the car Wiegman is riding. The first frame in
Wiegman shows the two cars in front of him turning from Houston and Elm.
Altgens at Z255 does not even show these two cars. So Wiegman starts
filming after the JFK head shot at Z313 and after Lovelady and Shelley
were photographed in Altgens at Z255.
If you look at the first frame in Wiegman you will see a gap or a large
space between the black man at the extreme left in the TSBD entrance way
and the next person on the top landing. This space is where Lovelady and
Shelley were. They said in their testimony that after the shots they went
to the island that is between Elm Street and the Elm extension street.
So that must be Oswald standing in the middle of the top landing of the
TSBD entrance way. His arrest shirt when in shadow appears black just
like this man in Wiegman. In Wiegman the dark shirt is open in a vee with
the t-shirt showing just like Oswald's arrest shirt because his shirt was
missing two top buttons. Is this proof positive that Oswald was out front
when the shots were fired? DPD Fritz said Oswald told him that he saw the
excitement. Fritz has a note that says "out with Bill Shelley in front".
I urge researchers to help pinpoint the time when the first frame of
Wiegman was taken. I urge researchers also to help me find Lovelady and
Shelley in the crowd beyond the entrance way.
Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
jwrush
"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24355-43...@storefull-3178.bay.webtv.net...
Hey, I came to this thread expecting to see a photo of Oswald in the TSBD
doorway. So where is it?
Martin Shackelford
Charles ignores ALL of the other photographic evidence, or misrepresents
it, to resurrect this long-dead myth.
He also faces the obstacle that Oswald said he was in the Domino Room
eating lunch at the time the photo was taken.
Martin
charles wallace
If you will post it then others will immediately know I have not messed
with this Wiegman frame. I'm not sure whether near the start of the
film or 3 seconds later provides the best view of Oswald standing there
on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way.
Thanks.
Regards, Charles
charles wallace
If you will read my post and then respond it will possibly be a better
discussion. I get excited when you disagree because its just another
confirming factor that I'm going in the right direction. Hint on the
reading see if you can find where I deny that Lovelady is in Altgens.
regards, Charles
charles wallace
Subject: "Oswald photographed in TSBD doorway after all?"
Testimony Of William H. Shelley
The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and
Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
QUOTE:
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back
up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy
Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old
island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is
there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building
and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't
it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple
underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards
and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the
building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while
we were on the island.
Note:
Wiegman filmed the 'island' area and I think I see possibly Shelley,
Lovelady, and a woman that is talking to Shelley there. I don't know
what Shelley looks like but this guy has on a suit and tie and is
wearing a hat. The guy that is possibly Lovelady is behind the suit guy
with just his head showing. They are standing very near the light.
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie; deliberate,
contrived and dishonest, but the myth.....persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic," John Fitzgerald Kennedy, 1962
charles wallace
An information note:
If you are interested in my postings I usually post important ones here
and at alt.conspiracy.jfk. You can read my posts about eight hours sooner
at alt.conspiracy.jfk rather than waiting to read it here. I post both
places about the same time.
jwrush
> Mr. Rush,
> If you will post it then others will immediately know I have not messed
> with this Wiegman frame. I'm not sure whether near the start of the
> film or 3 seconds later provides the best view of Oswald standing there
> on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way.
> Thanks.
> Regards, Charles
If you have a photo of Oswald in the doorway, as the title of your thread
states, then please post it so we can see it.
Rush
Martin Shackelford
Even OSWALD disagreed with you on that.
Martin
David VP
decided to lie to police and tell them he was inside the building.
Per this CT logic, Oswald has a PERFECT alibi that would have cleared
him of the murder charge, and obviously some of the dozens of OTHER
Depository front-door lurkers would have noticed Lee being there too --
but instead of telling the truth re. his being out front, he decides to
clam up for two days, even when he's given multiple GOLDEN
OPPORTUNITIES TO SCREAM HIS 12:30 WHEREABOUTS TO THE WORLD ON LIVE
TELEVISION, "Live" comments out of Oswald's mouth that the cops
couldn't have done anything about, even if the police and FBI WERE "in"
on a "hush up the truth" cover-up operation.
Which, of course, begs the secondary inquiry of -- WHY IN GOD'S NAME
WOULD THE COPS LET OSWALD SPEAK FREELY TO LIVE T.V. CAMERAS NUMEROUS
TIMES IF THEY (THE DPD) ARE TRYING TO "COVER UP" OSWALD'S REAL
STATEMENTS?
Plus -- Re. the OSWALD-IN-DOORWAY theory -----
Charles needs to overcome an even BIGGER "Doorway" stumbling block --
that being:
Why on Earth would Oswald go back INSIDE the Depository immediately
after witnessing the shooting that he had nothing to do with, to get a
soft drink on the 2nd Floor, and then, seconds later, decide to leave
the scene entirely after going back inside the building?
Was he THAT thirsty? He had to have that Coke so badly, he dashes
inside at the exact time the biggest murder of the 20th Century is
taking place practically on his front stoop. And yet he's not the
slightest bit interested in even STAYING OUTSIDE FOR EVEN SO MUCH AS 20
SECONDS FOLLOWING THE TURMOIL!
Amazingly logical, these CTers --- huh? Amazing.
Anthony Marsh
> So Oswald was out on the front stoop during the shooting, and yet
> decided to lie to police and tell them he was inside the building.
>
Not my theory, but how do you know what Oswald told the police? The
police lied about what Oswald said.
> Per this CT logic, Oswald has a PERFECT alibi that would have cleared
> him of the murder charge, and obviously some of the dozens of OTHER
An alibi means nothing when the police are framing someone. Look at some
of the routine murder cases where the cops frame someone who has an alibi.
> Depository front-door lurkers would have noticed Lee being there too --
Why should anyone remember seeing Oswald at the time of the shooting?
Remember, according to the WC defenders he was a nobody. The two black
employees in the Domino room having lunch did not remember seeing him
there. Givens did not remember seeing Oswald until someone told him to
remember it.
> but instead of telling the truth re. his being out front, he decides to
> clam up for two days, even when he's given multiple GOLDEN
> OPPORTUNITIES TO SCREAM HIS 12:30 WHEREABOUTS TO THE WORLD ON LIVE
> TELEVISION, "Live" comments out of Oswald's mouth that the cops
> couldn't have done anything about, even if the police and FBI WERE "in"
> on a "hush up the truth" cover-up operation.
>
Please cite for me what reporter specifically asked Oswald where he was
at the time of the shooting and what Oswald replied.
> Which, of course, begs the secondary inquiry of -- WHY IN GOD'S NAME
> WOULD THE COPS LET OSWALD SPEAK FREELY TO LIVE T.V. CAMERAS NUMEROUS
> TIMES IF THEY (THE DPD) ARE TRYING TO "COVER UP" OSWALD'S REAL
> STATEMENTS?
Please cite for me what reporters asked Oswald exactly the same
questions that the police asked Oswald and what Oswald's reply was. I
think you are you misremembering events. Were you there or did you see
them live on TV or have you watched any documentaries which have all of
the press conference?
>
> Plus -- Re. the OSWALD-IN-DOORWAY theory -----
>
> Charles needs to overcome an even BIGGER "Doorway" stumbling block --
> that being:
>
> Why on Earth would Oswald go back INSIDE the Depository immediately
> after witnessing the shooting that he had nothing to do with, to get a
> soft drink on the 2nd Floor, and then, seconds later, decide to leave
> the scene entirely after going back inside the building?
>
Several people went back into the TSBD. Why would Oswald be any
different? Some other workers also left the scene entirely. Some could
not get back inside when the police sealed the building.
> Was he THAT thirsty? He had to have that Coke so badly, he dashes
> inside at the exact time the biggest murder of the 20th Century is
> taking place practically on his front stoop. And yet he's not the
> slightest bit interested in even STAYING OUTSIDE FOR EVEN SO MUCH AS 20
> SECONDS FOLLOWING THE TURMOIL!
>
Maybe he was looking for the "real killer" like OJ?
> Amazingly logical, these CTers --- huh? Amazing.
>
Amazing, your strawmen, huh?
BTW, even Groden has admitted that it was Lovelady. There may be only 4
people left on this planet who think it was Oswald, the same type of
people who claim that the driver did it.
>
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
Anthony Marsh
> What you SAY, Charles, is that Oswald was in the doorway in the photo.
> Even OSWALD disagreed with you on that.
>
And even Groden disproved it when he worked for the HSCA.
So, what are these folks to do with a broken theory? Well, I'll come to
their rescue. Maybe the mystery man in the doorway (actually on the
steps) was really the famous Oswald double. ']>
> Martin
>
> charles wallace wrote:
>
>> Martin,
>> If you will read my post and then respond it will possibly be a better
>> discussion. I get excited when you disagree because its just another
>> confirming factor that I'm going in the right direction. Hint on the
>> reading see if you can find where I deny that Lovelady is in Altgens.
>>
>> regards, Charles
>> Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
>> http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
>>
>>
>
>
charles wallace
Thank you for your response. It tells me what you're all about. Thanks
again.
Regards, Charles
charles wallace
Approximately the first frame of Wiegman shows Oswald in the middle of
the TSBD entrance way on the top landing. Learn to live with it.
Regards, Charles
charles wallace
Oswald did tell the press what was going on. He yelled "I'm just a
patsy" and the press recorded it. Where have you been?
charles wallace
ANSWER: I'm saying that Altgens shows Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley
standing on the top landing in the TSBD entrance way very near the black
man there on the left. I'm also saying that the Wiegman film did not start
recording events until after JFK was hit in the head with a bullet. I'm
claiming that in the Wiegman film the first frames and some later frames
about 5 seconds later show a gap or space where Lovelady and Shelley once
were as shown in Altgens. I'm also claiming that in those same frames
Oswald can be seen standing on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD
entrance way. I now speculate that I see Shelley, Lovelady, and Gloria
Calvary about 3 seconds into the Wiegman film standing at the traffic
light pole on the traffic island that is between the two Elm streets.
David VP
>> How do you know what Oswald told the police?
Probably the same way I know that Oswald was the only killer in DP on
11/22/63 -- i.e.: I'm not one to scream "It's A Plot" at every turn in the
road (or every time the wind blows). And I'm not one to accuse MANY POLICE
OFFICIALS of heinous acts without so much as a speck of evidence to back
up any cover-up claims.
CTers, on the other hand......
>> An alibi means nothing when the police are framing someone.
.....I rest my case.
>> Why should anyone remember seeing Oswald at the time of the shooting?
By the same token, why SHOULDN'T they?
>> Please cite for me what reporter specifically asked Oswald where he was at the time of the shooting and what Oswald replied.
Just prior to Oswald's famous 4-word motto "I'm Just A Patsy", a reporter
DID ask: "Were you in that building?" as Oswald was being dragged through
the DPD hallways yet again.
Oswald replies: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."
This is immediately followed by two Oswald statements (the first of which
is an obvious bold-faced lie, which casts doubts about ANYTHING that
follows from the lips of this obvious liar):
"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet
Union......I'm just a patsy!"
The "Soviet Union" BS is obviously a known lie...and Oswald KNOWS himself
it's a lie. For, he knew WHY he was "taken in". He had just shot Officer
Tippit on Tenth Street.
That makes his "Patsy" declaration (which followed just one second later)
all the more hard to believe.
But, naturally, CTers believe every word that comes out of Oswald's mouth;
therefore, when he uttered "Patsy" that one single time, the ballgame's
over evidently! Oswald MUST be telling us the truth!
Pffftttt!
Also -- WHAT DIFFERENCE would it have made even if ZERO reporters
shouted "Where were you at 12:30?"?
Don't tell me that if YOU had just been FRAMED for 2 murders you never
committed, you would just clam up and WAIT TILL SOMEBODY SPECIFICALLY
ASKED YOU THE "MAGIC QUESTION" before shouting to the world (via MANY
perfect "Live On TV" chances to do so): "I was on the Depository steps,
you fools! You've got the wrong man! I can prove it! Ask Billy Lovelady
and Bill Shelley and Wes Frazier! They were there too! Ask them!"
I guess Oswald didn't want to speak up unless asked. (Manners, you
know.)
** rollin' 'em **
David VP
patsy" and the press recorded it.
Therefore, those FOUR singular words being uttered one time to the press
by Lee Oswald are enough to actually make you believe his mantra, correct?
And -- Even though he had golden opportunities to shout to the world "I
WAS ON THE STEPS AT 12:30, YOU BOOBS!" -- instead, he decides to just be
cryptic and use his "Patsy" statement to help clear him of all charges.
Right?
NOBODY on Earth could have prevented Oswald from shouting his "True" 12:30
P.M. whereabouts during that Midnight Press Conference, or during the many
other "Live TV" chances he had to spill his guts to the nation.
But does he say a single word about "The TSBD Steps"?
No.
Why?
Because he wasn't there.
Martin Shackelford
your thinking is on all of this, Charles. I didn't respond in detail to
your post because it had no real substance to respond to, and I saw no
reason to waste a great deal of time on it.
Martin
slatconsulting
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in
news:1129334945.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
Thank God someone here is endowed with common sense. I mean, that's his
ALIBI. Why would he withhold information that would CLEAR him?
Martin Shackelford
First of all, it isn't Oswald. Compare Wiegman with Hughes--which gives
the color of the shirt, a mix of blue and red, as was Lovelady's shirt.
Secondly, the figure being in the middle from Wiegman's angle is
consistent with the appearance in Altgens at a far different angle--and,
of course, Altgens' photo and the beginning of the Wiegman film have a
time difference, so direct comparison doesn't mean much.
Martin
Anthony Marsh
Several years ago there was an assassination only a couple of blocks
away from my apartment. I slept through the whole thing. I had no alibi.
Someone could have easily framed me as the patsy. I had connections to
both sides of the dispute.
Anthony Marsh
>>>Oswald did tell the press what was going on. He yelled "I'm just a
>
> patsy" and the press recorded it.
>
> Therefore, those FOUR singular words being uttered one time to the press
> by Lee Oswald are enough to actually make you believe his mantra, correct?
>
No. But there was someone who claimed that analyzing his speech
indicated that he was telling the truth.
> And -- Even though he had golden opportunities to shout to the world "I
> WAS ON THE STEPS AT 12:30, YOU BOOBS!" -- instead, he decides to just be
> cryptic and use his "Patsy" statement to help clear him of all charges.
> Right?
>
His patsy statement dealt more with WHY someone was trying to frame him
than with his alibi. He already had an alibi. Wouldn't it be a little
suspicious if he kept changing his alibi every hour?
> NOBODY on Earth could have prevented Oswald from shouting his "True" 12:30
> P.M. whereabouts during that Midnight Press Conference, or during the many
> other "Live TV" chances he had to spill his guts to the nation.
>
> But does he say a single word about "The TSBD Steps"?
>
> No.
>
> Why?
>
> Because he wasn't there.
>
>
Anthony Marsh
>>>How do you know what Oswald told the police?
>
>
> Probably the same way I know that Oswald was the only killer in DP on
> 11/22/63 -- i.e.: I'm not one to scream "It's A Plot" at every turn in the
> road (or every time the wind blows). And I'm not one to accuse MANY POLICE
> OFFICIALS of heinous acts without so much as a speck of evidence to back
> up any cover-up claims.
>
No, of course not. Considering that you are not even willing to admit
that the police officials did commit heinous acts even after spotlight
newspaper reporting, grand jury investigations, Congressional
investigations, several trials, confessions, and civil trials. You'd
even deny that the police beat the man in New Orleans. You'd claim that
he got a bloody face when he fell on the ground drunk.
> CTers, on the other hand......
>
>
>
>>>An alibi means nothing when the police are framing someone.
>
>
> .....I rest my case.
>
>
>
>>>Why should anyone remember seeing Oswald at the time of the shooting?
>
>
> By the same token, why SHOULDN'T they?
>
Lots of people went about their business without others noticing them.
How many people reported seeing the Black Dog Man, out there in plain
site? Did anyone know the names of the other two men with Hudsen?
>
>
>>>Please cite for me what reporter specifically asked Oswald where he was at the time of the shooting and what Oswald replied.
>
>
> Just prior to Oswald's famous 4-word motto "I'm Just A Patsy", a reporter
> DID ask: "Were you in that building?" as Oswald was being dragged through
> the DPD hallways yet again.
>
> Oswald replies: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."
>
That was not specifically about the time of the shooting.
> This is immediately followed by two Oswald statements (the first of which
> is an obvious bold-faced lie, which casts doubts about ANYTHING that
> follows from the lips of this obvious liar):
>
> "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet
> Union......I'm just a patsy!"
>
> The "Soviet Union" BS is obviously a known lie...and Oswald KNOWS himself
> it's a lie. For, he knew WHY he was "taken in". He had just shot Officer
> Tippit on Tenth Street.
>
Sure, but at that point the questions were about the assassination of
the President. Few asked him about Tippit.
> That makes his "Patsy" declaration (which followed just one second later)
> all the more hard to believe.
>
> But, naturally, CTers believe every word that comes out of Oswald's mouth;
> therefore, when he uttered "Patsy" that one single time, the ballgame's
> over evidently! Oswald MUST be telling us the truth!
>
Sure, you may find 7 gullible conspiracy believers who believe that.
> Pffftttt!
>
> Also -- WHAT DIFFERENCE would it have made even if ZERO reporters
> shouted "Where were you at 12:30?"?
>
How would they know to ask such a specific question?
> Don't tell me that if YOU had just been FRAMED for 2 murders you never
> committed, you would just clam up and WAIT TILL SOMEBODY SPECIFICALLY
> ASKED YOU THE "MAGIC QUESTION" before shouting to the world (via MANY
Some people are advised to claim up until they get counsel.
> perfect "Live On TV" chances to do so): "I was on the Depository steps,
> you fools! You've got the wrong man! I can prove it! Ask Billy Lovelady
> and Bill Shelley and Wes Frazier! They were there too! Ask them!"
>
> I guess Oswald didn't want to speak up unless asked. (Manners, you
> know.)
>
> ** rollin' 'em **
>
>
charles wallace
Could you put up a frame from the Hughes film which shows some color of
the guy's shirt? If you have something that shows Lovelady's shirt
before Z255 then its him most likely because its him in the Altgens
photo. You say there is a time difference between the Altgens photo and
the Wiegman film. How much is the difference?
charles wallace
DPD Capt. Will Fritz said in his WC testimony that Oswald told him that
he SAW the excitement. Could you explain why the WC questioner did not
follow up and ask how could Oswald SEE the excitement? Could you explain
why Fritz didn't mention Oswald SEEING the excitement in any of his
reports? One of Fritz's notes that supposedly was not taken but was
later discovered to exist said "out with Bill Shelley in front". Could
you explain why Fritz never mentioned this subject in his reports? Now
you can find a distorted view of what this meant but not from anyone
that was there when Oswald answered questions, right?
David VP
Perhaps Miss Cleo and Kreskin should have been called in to tell us all
about what Oswald meant.
And just exactly which "analyst" performed this "He's Telling The
Truth" evaluation of Oswald's "Patsy" declaration?
The statement's also been taken completely out of context by CTers for
40+ years too -- he's saying (via an obvious lie) that the DPD is
framing him...not any PRE-11/22 "plotters" who "set him up".
Either way, however, he's obviously lying....which becomes glaringly
obvious by his lie uttered just PRIOR to the "Patsy" remark.
DVP: > Oswald replies: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes
sir." <
TONY: >That was not specifically about the time of the shooting. <
LOL. Of course it was re. the "time of the shooting"!
For Pete sake, why would the reporter give a damn if Oswald was in the
building HOURS or DAYS earlier?! The question was obviously meant to
inquire where LHO was WHEN JFK WAS KILLED? What else?
David VP
I just love the made-up CT nonsense that Charles Wallace has recently
posted at JFK-Lancer.
He's pretty desperate now to have LHO in that doorway, despite the
truckload of evidence saying he wasn't -- Charlie now has ALL THE MEMBERS
OF THE PRESS conspiring to frame poor lil' Oswald.
Charles Wallace quote:
"The press had much more stuff than they ever let us see. We don't know
what wound up on the cutting room floor. I saw one documentary where gobs
of film was ordered thrown away because they had too much."
-----------
Absolutely hilarious!
The TOTAL amount of "Oswald On Live TV" footage must be (at most) five
minutes when strung back to back (including the very brief Midnight
Conference on Nov. 22). Sure, he was dragged through the halls several
times in front of cameras -- but all totalled it couldn't possibly add up
to more than just a few minutes.
And Charles seems to think that some people in the press had WAY more
footage of Oswald than they could possible ever use RE. THE BIGGEST MURDER
OF THE 20TH CENTURY!
Charles thinks that there's some juicy Oswald remarks on the "cutting room
floor" somewhere.
Just imagine the scenario --- EVERY newsman and cameraman and TV reporter
in the nation clamouring away to get a glimpse of the accused assassin
(Oswald) -- the press camped out in the DPD corridors for two solid days
trying to get ANY brief footage of Oswald they can get ahold of --- and
Charles thinks that there's a gob of Oswald footage (where LHO apparently
is revealing CT secrets) that the press decided NOT to air (funny, though,
because ALL of the Oswald footage went over the air LIVE AS IT WAS
HAPPENING, and there was no TIME to snip any of it out) ---
But Charles wants Oswald in that doorway -- so, by God, he's gonna be in
that doorway no matter what! Even if it means making up crap about the
press covering up Oswald's TRUE statements.
Some station has THE BIGGEST SCOOP THEY'LL EVER GET -- so what do they do
(per Charles)? -- They throw it away, and decide to frame the innocent
Oswald instead.
Any other brainstorms, Mr. Wallace?
BTW -- Any Fritz comments re. Oswald "seeing the excitement" are obviously
referring to Oswald "seeing the excitement" AS OSWALD WAS DEPARTING THE
BUILDING AT 12:33 PM. He HAD to have "seen" some degree of excitement as
he was leaving. So what? How does this prove he was on the steps @ 12:30?
And please explain Oswald's rushing back INSIDE the building after being
OUTSIDE at exactly 12:30, to get a Coke!
Did he only begin to realize he was being "set up as the patsy" AFTER
going back inside the building and buying a cool refreshing Coca-Cola
beverage?
charles wallace
Martin
I agree, that is Lovelady and he is very close to the Altgens pose
at Z255 in this frame from the Hughes film. This was taken before Z255.
Thanks very much for posting the picture.
An unrelated question. Who is the giant in white to Lovelady's left?
That has to be about 3 people clustered, right?
charles wallace
What was Oswald doing in the supply type closet on the first floor when
the vice president of the TSBD saw him there after JFK was shot? All the
evidence of someone else doing the shooting is just coincidences and
mistakes, right? Like Lillian Mooneyham seeing the killer in the SN
window set when it would have been impossible to be Oswald. Is the sky
blue in your world?
John McAdams
wrote:
>David,
>
>What was Oswald doing in the supply type closet on the first floor when
>the vice president of the TSBD saw him there after JFK was shot? All the
>evidence of someone else doing the shooting is just coincidences and
>mistakes, right? Like Lillian Mooneyham seeing the killer in the SN
>window set when it would have been impossible to be Oswald. Is the sky
>blue in your world?
>
It couldn't have been Oswald, it couldn't have been a Dallas cop.
But guess what? It couldn't have been a conspirator either, unless
you think the conspiracy shooter just lounged around in the Sniper's
Nest for several minutes savoring his feat.
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
charles wallace
There are mistakes made by people involved in this case. I made a big
one just recently by thinking that the Wiegman film started before the
first first shot. Now I'm trying to determine how many seconds after
the last shot it was started. My mistake was probably less than a
minute but this lady Mooneyham, you will not let her 4 to 5 minute
estimate be a mistake. She described the distance that she traveled and
the events she saw. A Dallas researcher has told us the distance that
she travelled can be done in less than two minutes since its all on the
same level and the buildings are connected on the inside. There was no
reactment to determine the truth of her estimate. Her time estimate
considering the facts should have been closer to two minutes after the
shots that she saw the man in the sixth floor window. Why wouldn't the
shooter stay to watch whether his shooting partner on the knoll would be
killed or arrested especially since he could see him scuffling with
someone. Why would the TSBD shooter rush down the wooden stairs and let
the men on the floor below (who he knew were there) see who he was? I
hope you use a more level playing field in the other areas of your life.
Martin Shackelford
sleeveless, so it wasn't Oswald, but it could have been one of the other
warehouse guys. Maybe it could be matched with another photo in which
someone is identified.
Martin
David VP
or the only people capable of making an error, are those witnesses who
gave testimony damning to Saint Oswald --- Such as: Brennan, Benavides,
Markham, Callaway, Tatum, V. Davis, B. Davis, Scoggins, Brewer, Reynolds,
Lewis, Russell, Edwards, Fischer, etc.
But those CT witnesses like Hill, Holland, and Clemmons, et al, were born
with unimpeachable "Conspiracy-Noticing" skills.
Clemmons' account of the Tippit slaying is taken as Gospel by many a-CTer,
despite the wholly-ILLOGICAL "plot" that she supposedly witnessed on Tenth
Street that day.....
I.E.:
Having TWO killers commit the Tippit murder, even though the conspirators'
MAIN #1 GOAL here is to FRAME JUST ONE SINGLE "PATSY" FOR THIS MURDER
(namely someone called "Lee Oswald").
Smart, huh?
Let's use TWO killers (needlessly, of course, for a point-blank killing of
Officer Tippit, who was located just inches from the gun of the killer),
instead of just utilizing our trusty,
present-at-every-murder-LHO-supposedly-ever-committed in-his-life "LHO
Imposter" to do the job.
>From what school for covert acts did these plotters graduate -- "The
Academy For Brain-Dead Conspirators"?
Nobody could be as stupid and reckless as these Nov. 22
plotters/conspirators were said to have been (per CT versions of events).
Not possible.
And yet Oliver Stone actually has people BUYIN' this stuff.
Kinda sad, huh?
charles wallace
David,
I'm CT and I'm pretty sure that Oswald killed Tippit.
tomnln
BOTTOM POST;
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129531381.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I'm guessing that in a CT fantasy world the ONLY people with bad eyesight,
> or the only people capable of making an error, are those witnesses who
> gave testimony damning to Saint Oswald ---
>
> EG:
>
> Brennan, Benavides, Markham, Callaway, Tatum, V. Davis, B. Davis,
> Scoggins, Brewer, Reynolds, Lewis, Russell, Edwards, Fischer, etc.
>
> But those CT witnesses like Hill, Holland, and Clemmons, et al, were born
> with unimpeachable "Conspiracy-Noticing" skills.
>
> Clemmons' account of the Tippit slaying is taken as Gospel by many a-CTer,
> despite the wholly-ILLOGICAL "plot" that she supposedly witnessed on Tenth
> Street that day.....
>
> I.E.:
>
> Having TWO killers pull the Tippit murder, even though the conspirators'
> MAIN #1 GOAL here is to FRAME JUST ONE SINGLE "PATSY" FOR THIS MURDER
> (namely someone called "Lee Oswald").
>
> Smart, huh?
>
> Let's use TWO killers (needlessly, of course, for a
> point-blank-into-the-head killing of a policeman just inches from the gun
> of the killer), instead of just our trusty,
> present-at-every-murder-LHO-supposedly-ever-committed-in-his-life "LHO
> Imposter" to do the job.
>
>>From what school for covert acts did these plotters graduate -- "The
> Academy For Brain-Dead Conspirators"?
>
> Nobody could be as stupid and reckless as these Nov. 22
> plotters/conspirators were said to have been (per CT versions of events).
> Not possible.
>
> And yet Oliver Stone actually has people BUYIN' this stuff.
>
> Kinda sad, huh?
QUESTION #1 Have you read the 26 Volumes?
QUESTION #2. Can you Explain why the Authorities destroyed Evidence>
Thanks in Advance for your Reply.
Anthony Marsh
Yes.
> QUESTION #2. Can you Explain why the Authorities destroyed Evidence>
>
A. To prevent WWIII.
B. Cover up their own incompetence.
> Thanks in Advance for your Reply.
>
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
> David,
> I'm CT and I'm pretty sure that Oswald killed Tippit.
> Regards, Charles
>
Me, too. Many conspiracy believers agree on that.
> Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
> http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
>
>
Anthony Marsh
> I'm guessing that in a CT fantasy world the ONLY people with bad eyesight,
> or the only people capable of making an error, are those witnesses who
> gave testimony damning to Saint Oswald --- Such as: Brennan, Benavides,
> Markham, Callaway, Tatum, V. Davis, B. Davis, Scoggins, Brewer, Reynolds,
> Lewis, Russell, Edwards, Fischer, etc.
>
You still have some straw left? Sure, you may be able to find ONE
conspiracy believer who will fit that profile, but most conspiracy
believers here understand that almost all witnesses make mistakes.
> But those CT witnesses like Hill, Holland, and Clemmons, et al, were born
> with unimpeachable "Conspiracy-Noticing" skills.
>
Try reading some of the previous messages and you will find that many of
us conspiracy believers have discussed the mistakes made by those
witnesses, whom you characterize as being "Conspiracy-Noticing." I guess
you could also include in that list the Connallys because they said that
he was hit by a separate bullet.
> Clemmons' account of the Tippit slaying is taken as Gospel by many a-CTer,
> despite the wholly-ILLOGICAL "plot" that she supposedly witnessed on Tenth
> Street that day.....
>
I have recommended Dale Myers' book With Malice which proves quite well
that Oswald killed Tippit.
> I.E.:
>
> Having TWO killers commit the Tippit murder, even though the conspirators'
> MAIN #1 GOAL here is to FRAME JUST ONE SINGLE "PATSY" FOR THIS MURDER
> (namely someone called "Lee Oswald").
>
Is that the only possible theory out there?
> Smart, huh?
>
> Let's use TWO killers (needlessly, of course, for a point-blank killing of
> Officer Tippit, who was located just inches from the gun of the killer),
> instead of just utilizing our trusty,
Inches from the gun? Where do you see the powder burns?
> present-at-every-murder-LHO-supposedly-ever-committed in-his-life "LHO
> Imposter" to do the job.
>
>>From what school for covert acts did these plotters graduate -- "The
> Academy For Brain-Dead Conspirators"?
>
> Nobody could be as stupid and reckless as these Nov. 22
> plotters/conspirators were said to have been (per CT versions of events).
> Not possible.
>
Have you ever looked at the CIA's Castro plots?
> And yet Oliver Stone actually has people BUYIN' this stuff.
>
> Kinda sad, huh?
>
>
David VP
and despicable nature)........
The 66th Birthday Party they're having over at Lancer for dear sweet-
innocent Lee Oswald is truly offensive, and in the poorest taste
imaginable.
Even for people who think there's room for doubt re. LHO's guilt in the
JFK murder -- we all know that Oswald killed Officer Tippit in cold
blood in '63 -- and for that one murder alone, a "celebration" of the
birthday of a known killer is, IMO, simply barf-inducing!
And the MODERATOR of the site started the Birthday Thread too! Truly
disgraceful!
www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=37988
tomnln
"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:kue5f.11360$f02.11193@trndny02...
Anthony Marsh
> I Question your authority to answer for "Many conspiracy believers".
>
>
All you have to do is attend a researcher conference or read some of the
old messages here to know that I am right.
tomnln
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129678825.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:utF5f.8727$Lb1.7147@trndny03...