Re: Was a "silenced weapon" fired at JFK from the Grassy Knoll?
David Von Pein
"silenced", the "shock wave" from the shot would have been picked up by
the sensitive equipment used in the testing to detect the "impulse
patterns" for the shots.
So, via this scientific method, the CTers can have their Sara Lee
cheescake and eat the stuff to boot (or, in this instance, they can
have their "silenced shot" and still have it show up as an increased
impulse pattern on the Dictabelt recording).
Somebody correct me if I'm way off base here.
But, the above CT argument that, in effect, is saying -- "Just because
there were silenced shots, that doesn't mean those shots can't show up
on the Dictabelt" -- is still not a good enough argument to combat the
many CTers' seemingly-self-contradictory beliefs with respect to the
"Knoll shot(s)".
What I mean by that is --- Almost all CTers feel, of course, that many
DP witnesses definitely DID hear actual gunshots coming from the front
(Knoll) on 11/22. And many of those same CTers also feel that Oswald
(at the same time) was being set up as the one lone patsy. These two
things mix like oil and water...they do not go together in a logical
way. Never did.
And if those same CTers who think LHO was only a patsy then want to
bring up any "silenced" frontal shots, they've got yet another
common-sense problem to overcome (a big one) -- because if the frontal
shots were silenced, how could ANY witnesses hear any shots coming from
the Knoll area?
Plus: Via such a loony theory, what kind of morons were pre-planning
this "One-Patsy" plot anyhow -- a comedy team being led by the Marx
Brothers or something? WHY on Earth would any plotters want to silence
only SOME of the shots from the front, but leave some of them
un-silenced and fully audible so that witnesses could tell about them
later on?
Again....the CT theories in this frontal-shot regard just don't add
up....from any POV. Never did. Never will.
Robert Harris
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote:
> The HSCA final findings said that based on acoustical evidence from the
> DPD dictabelt recording evidence, a fourth shot was fired at JFK from
> the infamous grassy knoll on 11-22-63.
>
> Johann Rush brought out an interesting point in another thread. The
> same crowd that feels a silencer equipped handgun or rifle was used
> from the knoll is the same crowd touts the dictabelt acoustic evidence
> as proof of conspiracy.
This is the first time in my life, I ever heard anyone claim that a
silenced shot was fired from the knoll.
Where did you find this "crowd", Chuck:-)
Robert Harris
--
There is no question an honest man will evade.
Gerry Simone (O)
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:1161626591.5...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The HSCA final findings said that based on acoustical evidence from the
> DPD dictabelt recording evidence, a fourth shot was fired at JFK from
> the infamous grassy knoll on 11-22-63.
>
> Johann Rush brought out an interesting point in another thread. The
> same crowd that feels a silencer equipped handgun or rifle was used
> from the knoll is the same crowd touts the dictabelt acoustic evidence
> as proof of conspiracy.
Same crowd? Really?
How did the dictabelt recording pick up a
> silencer equipped weapon?
Nobody said that it did but I see your point; you can't have a silenced
weapon and a believe in a fourth shot from the knoll that was recorded on
that Dictabelt (unless one believes in two shooters from the knoll).
>
> If the weapon used on the knoll was NOT silenced, how did so many
> people-many just a few feet away-fail to absolutely positively identify
> the approximately 130db noise (according to noted researcher Robert
> Harris) from a rifle just a few feet behind them? And why did almost
> everyone only report three shots?
If I recall correctly, most people closer to the TSBD recall 3 shots, and
people closer to the GK recall more than 3 shots or a shot from the knoll.
>
> ...The hoops one has to jump through to believe this stuff!
>
> The VAST majority of ear-witnesses noted only three shots, which neatly
> matches the physical evidence (three spent shells) at the TSBD sixth
> floor sniper nest.
>
>
It has been a long contention by certain CTers that a shot from the knoll
was fired very close to the final head shot from the rear. Therefore,
maybe that's why most people heard only 3 shots.
What do you think about the other fact that the VAST majority of
ear-witnesses heard the 2nd and 3rd shots were close together - in fact,
too close for them to have been fired from the MC.
jwrush
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161635059....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
That's why their stories are so silly, professional investigators laugh at
them.
>
> Again....the CT theories in this frontal-shot regard just don't add
> up....from any POV. Never did. Never will.
Of course not.
But you know the phenomenon about how some crackpot women fall in love
with jailed murderers? And some of the women actually marry the killers
while they are on death row? Well, in this particular case, a bunch of
guys are fascinated with Oswald like that, enthralled with him, enamored
with him, and try to help him and support him. Very peculiar.
Robert Harris
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote:
> I believe the CT account goes ..... Even if a Knoll shot had been
> "silenced", the "shock wave" from the shot would have been picked up by
> the sensitive equipment used in the testing to detect the "impulse
> patterns" for the shots.
>
> So, via this scientific method, the CTers can have their Sara Lee
> cheescake and eat the stuff to boot (or, in this instance, they can
> have their "silenced shot" and still have it show up as an increased
> impulse pattern on the Dictabelt recording).
>
> Somebody correct me if I'm way off base here.
Well, if you insist, David.
Of course, there were silenced shots fired that day, but not from the
grassy knoll.
As you already know, the first two shots could not have come from high
powered rifles, and had to have been silenced. The proof of this, lies
in the fact that no-one heard the second shot at all, and no-one was
startled by either of the first two - as they were following Z285 and
Z312.
Almost certainly, the only sound that was noticed prior to Z285, was the
that of the first bullet exploding on the pavement and creating a
"firecracker" noise. Even today, suppressors (silencers) are notorious
for causing misfires and wild misses, David.
Those shots were fired from the third floor of the Daltex building, from
which, the alignment through the wound locations of the two victims at
Z223, was perfect - in both the horizontal and vertical planes.
Remember that "Z" trajectory that the buffs always complained about?
They were right about the bad trajectory David, but that Z turns into a
perfect, straight line, when we consider a shooter from the third floor
of the Daltex, behind the fire escape.
And guess who just happened to be on that third floor then, David. Yep,
you got it - the only professional hoodlum in DP that day, to be
arrested. That was James Braden, who also just happened to be at the
Cabana hotel the night before, with Jack Ruby and some of his thugs from
Chicago. As I'm sure you know David, HSCA investigators had confirmed
that Ruby made repeated phone calls to hit men in Chicago, in the weeks
leading up to the assassination.
Anyway, getting back to the shooting.
The shot at Z285 almost certainly, came from that same window. It missed
Kennedy, passing just inches to his right, and wound up striking the
pavement on Main St, where it shattered, sending a sizable piece of lead
to strike the south curbing and a tiny piece of debris, to nick James
Tague's cheek.
The reason he missed, was that between Z255 and Z285, Greer pulled the
limo roughly 5-6 feet to his right, or to the North. You can confirm
that fact, by comparing the limo's proximity to the south lane divider
in the Altgens photo, with its position two seconds later, in the
Muchmore film.
When that happened, the shooter who had a bead on JFK at the time, was
suddenly, looking at the back of one or more of the Secret Service
agents standing on the right running board of the followup car.
He must have been in the act of pulling the trigger then, and
reflexively jerked the rifle enough to avoid shooting the agent.
Now, before you go into your all-too-predictable, ridicule mode, would
you like me to prove to you, that at the very least, the positions of
the two vehicles and the view from the Daltex, were as I described at
255 and 285?
Would you like me to show you, that such a shooter - hypothetical or
otherwise, COULD see JFK at Z255, but not at Z285?
James Tague was adamant that his minor wound occurred AFTER the first
shot, and got really mad at Posner for claiming otherwise. In fact,
Tague testified that it was the second shot.
Z285 was indeed, the second audible shot that day, David. By now, you
must be thinking that I am the luckiest guy on the planet, since all
this evidence and testimony, just coincidentally matches my analysis:-)
David, I have been to the mountain top and I have talked to the guy in
the long, white robe.
Oh hell! I'm tired of being modest. David I AM the guy in that robe!
Robert Harris
>
> But, the above CT argument that, in effect, is saying -- "Just because
> there were silenced shots, that doesn't mean those shots can't show up
> on the Dictabelt" -- is still not a good enough argument to combat the
> many CTers' seemingly-self-contradictory beliefs with respect to the
> "Knoll shot(s)".
>
> What I mean by that is --- Almost all CTers feel, of course, that many
> DP witnesses definitely DID hear actual gunshots coming from the front
> (Knoll) on 11/22. And many of those same CTers also feel that Oswald
> (at the same time) was being set up as the one lone patsy. These two
> things mix like oil and water...they do not go together in a logical
> way. Never did.
>
> And if those same CTers who think LHO was only a patsy then want to
> bring up any "silenced" frontal shots, they've got yet another
> common-sense problem to overcome (a big one) -- because if the frontal
> shots were silenced, how could ANY witnesses hear any shots coming from
> the Knoll area?
>
> Plus: Via such a loony theory, what kind of morons were pre-planning
> this "One-Patsy" plot anyhow -- a comedy team being led by the Marx
> Brothers or something? WHY on Earth would any plotters want to silence
> only SOME of the shots from the front, but leave some of them
> un-silenced and fully audible so that witnesses could tell about them
> later on?
>
> Again....the CT theories in this frontal-shot regard just don't add
> up....from any POV. Never did. Never will.
--
David Von Pein
Indeed. Most CTers require a minimum of five. They need three just to
"replace" the one SBT shot.
Why wasn't Shot # 5 noticed right away by Weiss & Co. in the '70s?
Is it a case of "Oh, yeah, a 5th shot really IS on there...but we just
didn't get around to analyzing that one yet"?
That's CT convenience to be sure.
Kinda reminds me of Jean Hill's sudden MUCH BETTER MEMORY post-11/22.
rob.s...@gmail.com
guy in the storm drain, what happened to him Bob?
Robert Harris
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote:
> Robert Harris wrote:
> >
> > Where did you find this "crowd", Chuck:-)
>
> You believe that some weapons that afternoon employed a silencer, but
> not the knoll shot, correct?
I know there were, Chuck.
>
> As Anthony Marsh would say, "it's not my theory, but..."
>
> Some believe a shooter on the knoll used a silenced handgun or rifle of
> some sort.
Who?
> Search this group with key words for past posts positing
> that scenario.
Didn't you already do that? If not, then where did you come up with this
"crowd"?
Or is it possible that you never saw anyone say such a thing, so you
just made it up in order to have something to ridicule:-)
>
> Realistically, you need to believe in at least five shots (if you
> believe in the dictabelt HSCA findings) if you believe a silencer
> equipped weapon was used as well that afternoon.
Whey are you constantly seeking or making up stupid ideas to refute?
Why not instead, devote a little time to figuring out what really
happened that day?
Anthony Marsh
> The HSCA final findings said that based on acoustical evidence from the
> DPD dictabelt recording evidence, a fourth shot was fired at JFK from
> the infamous grassy knoll on 11-22-63.
>
> Johann Rush brought out an interesting point in another thread. The
> same crowd that feels a silencer equipped handgun or rifle was used
> from the knoll is the same crowd touts the dictabelt acoustic evidence
> silencer equipped weapon?
>
I don't think anyone is arguing that the Dictabelt recording picked up a
silencer generated shot. Could it theoretically? Maybe, but I tend to
doubt it as the background noise level was so high.
> If the weapon used on the knoll was NOT silenced, how did so many
> people-many just a few feet away-fail to absolutely positively identify
> the approximately 130db noise (according to noted researcher Robert
> Harris) from a rifle just a few feet behind them? And why did almost
> everyone only report three shots?
>
You misstate the facts. People near the rifle did notice it and react.
> ...The hoops one has to jump through to believe this stuff!
>
> The VAST majority of ear-witnesses noted only three shots, which neatly
> matches the physical evidence (three spent shells) at the TSBD sixth
> floor sniper nest.
>
Two shots were so close to each other that they sounded like one shot
with an echo.
>
Anthony Marsh
> I believe the CT account goes ..... Even if a Knoll shot had been
> "silenced", the "shock wave" from the shot would have been picked up by
> the sensitive equipment used in the testing to detect the "impulse
> patterns" for the shots.
>
Maybe, but more likely if a silencer had been used they used subsonic
ammo which will not produce a shock wave.
Robert Harris
>Dang I was following along just great, and then I remembered about the
>guy in the storm drain, what happened to him Bob?
That was Johnny Roselli, Rob. This guy was no James Files. He and Sam
Giancana had been recruited by the CIA to assassinate Castro. Roselli
testfied in 1975, before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
and went into a great deal of detail about Operation Mongoose and the
JFK assassination.
Shortly after that, Giancana was murdered and then Roselli himself.
His body was dismembered and found floating in a 55 gallon oil drum.
Roselli told the committee the rather silly story that Castro turned
around a mafia hit squad and had them kill JFK. But privately, he told
his mafioso friends that his people did the job and that he fired the
final shot from the same storm drain that I have been telling you
about, Rob.
It was mafia people who pulled the triggers, Rob. You can take that to
the bank.
James Braden was also involved and at least one or two others who met
with Ruby and Braden at the Cabana motel (which was owned by the mafia
in 1963) on the eve of the assassination.
Come on, Rob - haven't you ever wondered why Ruby was on the phone
trying to recruit Mafia hitmen in the weeks just pior to the
assassination:-)
This is case is not just easy Rob - it is laughably, pathetically and
outrageously easy!
Robert Harris
There is no question that an honest man will evade.
The JFK History Page
http://jfkhistory.com/
Robert Harris
>Dang I was following along just great, and then I remembered about the
>guy in the storm drain, what happened to him Bob?
That was Johnny Roselli, Rob. This guy was no James Files. He and Sam
Giancana had been recruited by the CIA to assassinate Castro. Roselli
testfied in 1975, before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
and went into a great deal of detail about Operation Mongoose and the
JFK assassination.
Shortly after that, Giancana was murdered and then Roselli himself.
His body was dismembered and found floating in a 55 gallon oil drum.
Roselli told the committee the rather silly story that Castro turned
around a mafia hit squad and had them kill JFK. But privately, he told
his mafioso friends that his people did the job and that he fired the
final shot from the same storm drain that I have been telling you
about, Rob.
It was mafia people who pulled the triggers, Rob. You can take that to
the bank.
James Braden was also involved and at least one or two others who met
with Ruby and Braden at the Cabana motel (which was owned by the mafia
in 1963) on the eve of the assassination.
Come on, Rob - haven't you ever wondered why Ruby was on the phone
trying to recruit Mafia hitmen in the weeks just pior to the
assassination:-)
This is case is not just easy Rob - it is laughably, pathetically and
outrageously easy!
Robert Harris
>
>
>
There is no question that an honest man will evade.
Gerry Simone (O)
We're not talking subjective reports from SSA and other 'professional
witnesses' who swore that they heard the second and third shot closer
together which isn't possible for the MC.
History does record unknown assassins.
This and other issues don't put the patsy question to rest.
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:1161710840....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Gerry Simone (O) wrote:
>
> > What do you think about the other fact that the VAST majority of
> > ear-witnesses heard the 2nd and 3rd shots were close together - in fact,
> > too close for them to have been fired from the MC.
>
> I think it is interesting...and very subjective. What is more important
> is finding the three spent shells at the 6th floor sniper nest and how
> that matches the fact that an overwhelming number of ear witnesses
> heard just three shots. When you tie together the autopsy evidence
> showing the JFK and JBC wounds were caused by two shots, and that a
> stray round is the cause of Tague's minor wound, you've got a pretty
> good case against Mr. Oswald.
>
> The case is ironclad when you throw in the fact that Oswald worked in
> the building, has no alibi for his whereabouts at 1230pm, no witnesses
> to his whereabouts at 1230pm, owned the rifle found at the snipers
> nest, left palm prints-you know the list.
>
>
David Von Pein
these terms heretofore (despite Bob's constant hammering home of these
facts).
I've been the one who has been unable to see the forest for the Z285
trees.
The Savior HAS arrived....at last. And it's the Bob-man.
Robert IS the man in the robe....setting the masses straight with
regards to what really happened on Elm St.
Thank you, Bob.
I'll try to get word to VB that he'll have to scrap 2100 pages and
start the book all over again....another 21 years of searching it would
appear. Dang.
If I now shoot myself with a silenced weapon (after deep depression
sinks in due to the sudden realization that I've been duped all these
years by the evil 11/22 plotters), I'm wondering if the shot will still
be picked up on a Dictabelt someplace nearby, proving that a second
gunman fired at me as well (probably that damn neighbor of mine who
hates me -- Gassy Knowles -- he likes baked beans).
~~~~~~~
Disclaimers:
1.) Warner Brothers Entertainment, Inc., has purchased exclusive rights
to film Mr. Harris' new motion picture -- titled "JFK 2: WATCH JACKIE
DUCK" -- now in production. Mel Blanc, who sadly died in July 1989,
will be exhumed just to provide the voices for "JFK 2: WJD". Blanc's
unique talents were deemed necessary due to director Oliver Stone's
feeling that a lot of animal sounds would be required to complete the
film's soundtrack.
2.) May contain peanuts.
3.) Contents of Mr. Harris' theories may be too hot (or odor-filled) to
handle. Allow to stand in microwave (or garbage dump) for 1 hour before
daring to approach. Gloves may also be required.
Thanks. And Godspeed to all.
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "Realistically, you need to believe in at least five shots..." <<<
>
> Indeed. Most CTers require a minimum of five. They need three just to
> "replace" the one SBT shot.
>
Some, not most. There are a few alternative theories. One is the
Modified Single Bullet Theory (now public domain) in which one bullet
causes all of Connally's wounds, but did not go through Kennedy first.
> Why wasn't Shot # 5 noticed right away by Weiss & Co. in the '70s?
>
If you actually did any reading and bothered to know about the
acoustical evidence, you'd know the answer. BBN and the HSCA rejected
the fifth shot because it came too soon after a better candidate (1.05
seconds) to have been fired from the same rifle in the sniper's nest.
W&A did not have anything to do with that, as they were only asked to
analyze the grassy knoll shot.
> Is it a case of "Oh, yeah, a 5th shot really IS on there...but we just
> didn't get around to analyzing that one yet"?
>
Pretty much.
> That's CT convenience to be sure.
>
That's cover-up by the DOJ.
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
>> Two shots were so close to each other that they sounded like one shot
>> with an echo.
>>
>
>
The acoustical evidence.
David Von Pein
shot had been "silenced", the "shock wave" from the shot would have
been picked up by the sensitive equipment used in the testing to detect
the "impulse patterns" for the shots."
ANTHONY MARSH --- "Maybe, but more likely if a silencer had been used
they used subsonic ammo which will not produce a shock wave."
~~~~~~~~
LOL. These plotters/henchmen seemed to know every little thing in
advance apparently. They even somehow could see into the future and
foretell the details of the HSCA acoustics investigation, and they knew
not to use supersonic Knoll weapons because of the likelihood that some
motorcycle officer would mistakenly leave his DPD radio microphone open
so that all of the gunshots would be accidentally recorded.
Kreskins they were....one and all. Magicians to a man.
And even though the chances are very remote (at best) that any of the
sounds in DP would be "recorded" for later replay by authorities on
November 22nd....these ever-efficient plotters went ahead and used a
lower-powered type of "subsonic" weapon to shoot President Kennedy
with. (A subsonic gun IS less powerful, hence less lethal overall on
the average, than is a "supersonic" gun...I would assume...correct?)
Why didn't the plotters just throw giant paper wads at JFK (with big
pictures of Castro and Khrushchev attached to each wad) and hope that
they'd scare the President to death? That'd probably be nearly as
efficient as that other subsonic method.
Glenn Sarlitto
>
> Gerry Simone (O) wrote:
>
>> ear-witnesses heard the 2nd and 3rd shots were close together - in fact,
>> too close for them to have been fired from the MC.
>
> is finding the three spent shells at the 6th floor sniper nest and how
> that matches the fact that an overwhelming number of ear witnesses
> heard just three shots. When you tie together the autopsy evidence
> showing the JFK and JBC wounds were caused by two shots, and that a
> stray round is the cause of Tague's minor wound, you've got a pretty
> good case against Mr. Oswald.
>
> The case is ironclad when you throw in the fact that Oswald worked in
> the building, has no alibi for his whereabouts at 1230pm, no witnesses
> to his whereabouts at 1230pm, owned the rifle found at the snipers
> nest, left palm prints-you know the list.
>
Chuck,
Ditto on the above.
Regarding, "he has no alibi for his whereabouts at 1230pm, no witnesses to
his whereabouts at 1230pm".
hehehehe...........
Damn straight he has no alibi! OUCH! I've posted that many times myself.
And I would think that even James, our Attorney-to-be, realizes that that
is a MAJOR CONCERN/CONSIDERATION that cannot be dismissed/discounted.
I see that you left out the eyewitnesses regarding his whereabouts being
at the window at 12:30PM.
Especially the most important witness to appear before the WC, according
to Ford and Belin, Howard Brennan.
FORE!
Glen
Anthony Marsh
> DAVID VON PEIN --- "I believe the CT account goes ..... Even if a Knoll
> shot had been "silenced", the "shock wave" from the shot would have
> been picked up by the sensitive equipment used in the testing to detect
> the "impulse patterns" for the shots."
>
> ANTHONY MARSH --- "Maybe, but more likely if a silencer had been used
> they used subsonic ammo which will not produce a shock wave."
>
> ~~~~~~~~
>
> LOL. These plotters/henchmen seemed to know every little thing in
> advance apparently. They even somehow could see into the future and
> foretell the details of the HSCA acoustics investigation, and they knew
> not to use supersonic Knoll weapons because of the likelihood that some
> motorcycle officer would mistakenly leave his DPD radio microphone open
> so that all of the gunshots would be accidentally recorded.
>
No one is claiming that the conspirators picked a subsonic silenced weapon
for the grassy knoll shot. The acoustical evidence shows it was loud and
super sonic, about 2235 fps muzzle velocity. My point was that a
professional who choses to use a silencer often plans ahead and uses sub
sonic ammunition. It is more typical than super sonic.
> Kreskins they were....one and all. Magicians to a man.
>
Magic you want? How about Posner's Magic Twig?
> And even though the chances are very remote (at best) that any of the
> sounds in DP would be "recorded" for later replay by authorities on
> November 22nd....these ever-efficient plotters went ahead and used a
> lower-powered type of "subsonic" weapon to shoot President Kennedy
> with. (A subsonic gun IS less powerful, hence less lethal overall on
> the average, than is a "supersonic" gun...I would assume...correct?)
>
It has absolutely nothing to do with the shots being recorded. It has to
do with spectators hearing the shots.
> Why didn't the plotters just throw giant paper wads at JFK (with big
> pictures of Castro and Khrushchev attached to each wad) and hope that
> they'd scare the President to death? That'd probably be nearly as
> efficient as that other subsonic method.
>
>
Sub sonic rounds are quite lethal and the preferred ammo for silencers.
Robert Harris
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote:
> Robert Harris is 100% right.
Thank you David.
I appreciate your honesty and integrity, in confirming that fact.
Robert Harris
<minor snippage of unimportant content>
PF
VP to a CT!!!!
BRAVO!!
PF
Anthony Marsh
> In article <1161719463....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Robert Harris is 100% right.
>
> Thank you David.
>
> I appreciate your honesty and integrity, in confirming that fact.
>
>
>
>
Jeez, don't you get it? He's pulling your leg, making fun of you!