Hargis
Russell and Carrie Burr
it of some interest. It looks like SSID author Josiah Thompson was correct
after all. Happy Holidays to All!
QUOTE
Sunday News, New York, November 24, 1963
Page 21
Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened
Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) B.W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who
was riding in President Kennedy's motorcade, gave this account today of
the Assassination:
"We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it
happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the
President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy."
"When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that
Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a
real surprised look."
Splattered With Blood
"The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning
toward the Governor, talking to him."
"As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him,
and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.
I was splattered with blood."
"Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something,
but I thought at first I might have been hit."
"Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of
the road, got off and drew my gun."
And They Took Off
"Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits
about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of
the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the
chief that the President had been shot."
John McAdams
<l...@foxvalley.net> wrote:
>Steve Barber sent to me sometime ago and I thought many of you would find
>it of some interest. It looks like SSID author Josiah Thompson was correct
>after all. Happy Holidays to All!
>
Not really. Tink said that Hargis said the was "hit so hard" [quoting
Tink, not Hargis] that he "thought he had been hit" [quoting Hargis].
But the "hit so hard" has no basis in Hargis testimony.
Thompson *enhanced* this to make it mean something that Hargis never
intended. Thompson uses it as evidence that the back of Kennedy's
head was blown out.
In fact, Hargis told Garrison's investigators that "All I saw was a
splash come out on the other side [of Kennedy's head]."
This particular issue is one of the blatant failures of what is
otherwise far and away the best conspiracy book on the assassination.
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Russ Burr
says...
>
>On 23 Dec 1998 12:39:53 -0600, Russell and Carrie Burr
><l...@foxvalley.net> wrote:
>
>>Steve Barber sent to me sometime ago and I thought many of you would find
>>it of some interest. It looks like SSID author Josiah Thompson was correct
>>after all. Happy Holidays to All!
>>
>
>
>Not really. Tink said that Hargis said the was "hit so hard" [quoting
>Tink, not Hargis] that he "thought he had been hit" [quoting Hargis].
After rummaging thru my books I found the *quote* Tink used and you are
correct John.
The other important thing the article addressed is that Hargis was not the
policeman to charge the Knoll...Haygood did but not Hargis, like some
buffs tend to think.
Have a great Holiday John...I miss our chats;-)
Russ
R2JUDGE
>From: 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams)
>Date: Thu, Dec 24, 1998 00:35 EST
>Message-id: <3681cb19...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>
>
>On 23 Dec 1998 12:39:53 -0600, Russell and Carrie Burr
><l...@foxvalley.net> wrote:
>
>>Steve Barber sent to me sometime ago and I thought many of you would find
>>it of some interest. It looks like SSID author Josiah Thompson was correct
>>after all. Happy Holidays to All!
>>
>
>
>Not really. Tink said that Hargis said the was "hit so hard" [quoting
>Tink, not Hargis] that he "thought he had been hit" [quoting Hargis].
>
>
>Thompson *enhanced* this to make it mean something that Hargis never
>intended. Thompson uses it as evidence that the back of Kennedy's
>head was blown out.
>
>In fact, Hargis told Garrison's investigators that "All I saw was a
>splash come out on the other side [of Kennedy's head]."
>
>This particular issue is one of the blatant failures of what is
>otherwise far and away the best conspiracy book on the assassination.
>
>.John
>
>
>The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
***Another failure is that Thompson claimed that Frasier of the FBI said
that the MC rifle could not be fired twice (without reaiming) in less
than 2.3 seconds.
On the Nova special, Thompson demonstrated this feat. He put his eye to
the scope and without rushing- fired, recocked, put his eye to the scope
and fired again- in 1.9 seconds.
Thompson did this without reaiming.
Frasier fired 3 times in 4.6 seconds at a target 25 yards away putting the
shots within an area of 2 inches. 2.3 seconds per shot.
Frasier was aiming his shots.
That is why Thompson beat his time.
***Ron Judge
John McAdams
>>
>>>Steve Barber sent to me sometime ago and I thought many of you would find
>>>it of some interest. It looks like SSID author Josiah Thompson was correct
>>>after all. Happy Holidays to All!
>>>
>>
>>
>>Not really. Tink said that Hargis said the was "hit so hard" [quoting
>>Tink, not Hargis] that he "thought he had been hit" [quoting Hargis].
>>
>>But the "hit so hard" has no basis in Hargis testimony.
>>
>>Thompson *enhanced* this to make it mean something that Hargis never
>>intended. Thompson uses it as evidence that the back of Kennedy's
>>head was blown out.
>>
>>In fact, Hargis told Garrison's investigators that "All I saw was a
>>splash come out on the other side [of Kennedy's head]."
>>
>>This particular issue is one of the blatant failures of what is
>>otherwise far and away the best conspiracy book on the assassination.
>>
>
>***Another failure is that Thompson claimed that Frasier of the FBI said
>that the MC rifle could not be fired twice (without reaiming) in less
>than 2.3 seconds.
>
>On the Nova special, Thompson demonstrated this feat. He put his eye to
>the scope and without rushing- fired, recocked, put his eye to the scope
>and fired again- in 1.9 seconds.
>
It's actually 1.83 seconds. I know because the AV guy at Marquette
did a video capture, and spread the frames out in Adobe Premier. You
can see when the firing pin falls, and count the frames between. It's
the precise way to do it :-).
The sequence you are talking about is:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tink.rm
>Thompson did this without reaiming.
>
>Frasier fired 3 times in 4.6 seconds at a target 25 yards away putting the
>shots within an area of 2 inches. 2.3 seconds per shot.
>
>Frasier was aiming his shots.
>
>That is why Thompson beat his time.
>
Yep, Thompson messed up on this issue. But SSID is *still* the best
of the conspiracy books.
BigDave11
I thought it was the most informative book at the time it was published. A
lot of better books have come out since. Didn't Thompson conclude that the
throat wound was from a fragment of the head shot? Just relying on my
memory, I think he did.
BigDave :-)
clint...@earthlink.net
6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
Just FYI, I talked with Hargis in 1995, and wrote:
Ten Dallas policemen are currently on the force who were employed by Dallas PD
in 1963. Then motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis is approachable, and will become
sullen before your eyes as he relates his story.
He was on the force only a week when he was given the assignment to flank
JFK's limo - left side, ten feet behind.
"I'm the only one living who was beside the car. When [JFK] was shot in the
head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It
came up and down, all over my uniform."
A few minutes later, while at the TSBD, a co-worker leaned forward and flicked
something off Hargis' upper lip.
"It was a piece of the President," Hargis said, as his gaze clouds through
tearing eyes.
Find Officer Hargis now processing stolen cars for the Physical Evidence Unit.
- Clint Bradford, ATTENTION to Details
http://www.pe.net/~atd
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
R2JUDGE
>Message-id: <36d77bad...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
***.John, thanks for the correction on the timing of the 2 shot sequence
on NOVA. I was using the stopwatch function on my watch and played the
sequence several times averaging 1.9 seconds. Frame by frame is the more
accurate measurement.
***Ron Judge
John McAdams
>In article <36d77bad...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
>
>Just FYI, I talked with Hargis in 1995, and wrote:
>
>Ten Dallas policemen are currently on the force who were employed by Dallas PD
>in 1963. Then motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis is approachable, and will become
>sullen before your eyes as he relates his story.
>
>He was on the force only a week when he was given the assignment to flank
>JFK's limo - left side, ten feet behind.
>
>"I'm the only one living who was beside the car. When [JFK] was shot in the
>head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It
>came up and down, all over my uniform."
>
Yep, that's what many of us have been saying for a long time. He "ran
into" the brain matter, rather than being "hit hard."
Nice bit of evidence, Clint!
>A few minutes later, while at the TSBD, a co-worker leaned forward and flicked
>something off Hargis' upper lip.
>
>"It was a piece of the President," Hargis said, as his gaze clouds through
>tearing eyes.
>
You can see him telling about this in TMWKK. He also tells about a
recurring nightmare of a shooter in the SN, he sees him, and shouts,
but nobody hears him.
Robert Harris
6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:35:59 GMT, clint...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >In article <36d77bad...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> > 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> >
> >Just FYI, I talked with Hargis in 1995, and wrote:
> >
> >Ten Dallas policemen are currently on the force who were employed by Dallas PD
> >in 1963. Then motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis is approachable, and will become
> >sullen before your eyes as he relates his story.
> >
> >He was on the force only a week when he was given the assignment to flank
> >JFK's limo - left side, ten feet behind.
> >
> >"I'm the only one living who was beside the car. When [JFK] was shot in the
> >head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It
> >came up and down, all over my uniform."
> >
>
> Yep, that's what many of us have been saying for a long time. He "ran
> into" the brain matter, rather than being "hit hard."
That is indeed amazing, since Hargis was about 10 feet to Kennedy's left
at Z313, while that shot blew out the *right* and upper part of Kennedy's
head.
Even more amazing is the fact that Officer BJ Martin, who was just inches
from the South curbing on Elm, was also spattered, getting blood and
matter all over his windshield and helmet.
Martin was behind and almost 20 feet to Kennedy's left.
And finally, there is the fact that the wind was blowing from the
Southwest at that instant, as we can see by looking at the coats of Mary
Moorman and Jean Hill in the Muchmore film. IOW, it was blowing the blood
and debris *away* from the motorcyle cops.
I posted an illustration and some other images that should make the
position of the two officers very clear, as well as the far more likely
trajectory of the shot that actually spattered them. The URL is:
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/lastshot/lastshot.htm
There was a second head shot, roughly 1/2 second after the one at
Z312-313. It is absolutely preposterous to believe that the 313 shot
caused Hargis and Martin to be hit by blood and tissue as they were.
BTW, at the end of the article at my website, be sure to click on the link
to the Quicktime file in which Police chief Curry states his opinion about
the likely origin of the final shot(s).
You might be surprised:-)
Robert Harris
John McAdams
>
> In article <3775a15f...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:35:59 GMT, clint...@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > >In article <36d77bad...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> > > 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> > >
> > >Just FYI, I talked with Hargis in 1995, and wrote:
> > >
> > >Ten Dallas policemen are currently on the force who were employed by Dallas PD
> > >in 1963. Then motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis is approachable, and will become
> > >sullen before your eyes as he relates his story.
> > >
> > >He was on the force only a week when he was given the assignment to flank
> > >JFK's limo - left side, ten feet behind.
> > >
> > >"I'm the only one living who was beside the car. When [JFK] was shot in the
> > >head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It
> > >came up and down, all over my uniform."
> > >
> >
> > Yep, that's what many of us have been saying for a long time. He "ran
> > into" the brain matter, rather than being "hit hard."
>
> That is indeed amazing, since Hargis was about 10 feet to Kennedy's left
> at Z313, while that shot blew out the *right* and upper part of Kennedy's
> head.
But at the instant of the head shot, Kennedy's head was rotated to the
left a bit, so the blow-out we see in the autopsy photos and x-rays, and
in the Z-film, blew matter upward and forward in a wide arc.
>
> Even more amazing is the fact that Officer BJ Martin, who was just inches
> from the South curbing on Elm, was also spattered, getting blood and
> matter all over his windshield and helmet.
>
> Martin was behind and almost 20 feet to Kennedy's left.
>
I don't know where you get the "20 feet," but Kennedy's brain matter was
splattered all around. Chaney, on the right side of the limo, was also
splattered with brain matter, and so were the Connallys.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm
> And finally, there is the fact that the wind was blowing from the
> Southwest at that instant, as we can see by looking at the coats of Mary
> Moorman and Jean Hill in the Muchmore film. IOW, it was blowing the blood
> and debris *away* from the motorcyle cops.
>
No, it was blowing it *backwards* relative to the limo. That by itself
would not get it to the left on Hargis, but the simple fact is that
Kennedy's head exploded and matter flew in a wide arc.
> I posted an illustration and some other images that should make the
> position of the two officers very clear, as well as the far more likely
> trajectory of the shot that actually spattered them. The URL is:
>
> http://www.c-works.com/jfk/lastshot/lastshot.htm
>
> There was a second head shot, roughly 1/2 second after the one at
> Z312-313. It is absolutely preposterous to believe that the 313 shot
> caused Hargis and Martin to be hit by blood and tissue as they were.
>
But it seems that "second head shot" is nowhere visible in any of the
photos of Kennedy's head exploding. It's not in Zapruder, nor in Nix,
nor in Muchmore.
And none of the Dealey Plaza witnesses mention it.
So your theory relies on an invisible shot. On your web page you say:
<Quote on>
I am convinced that this shot entered in the temple area which was
already damaged by the explosive shot at Z312-313. It exploded (was
probably a mercury load) blowing out blood, skull and tissue, out from
the cowlick area in the upper rear of the President's head.
<Quote off>
So we have this "exploding" bullet that blows brain matter backwards.
But somehow the explosion was invisible.
.John
Robert Harris
<6489mc...@marquette.edu> wrote:
The three Elm St. lanes were each, a tad over 13 feet wide, John. Martin
was very close to the south curbing, or as about as far as he could be to
the left, as we see in the Altgens photo and Muchmore film.
The limo was roughly 7 feet wide, though we don't know exactly where it
was in relation to the lane dividers. If the tires were nearly touching
the left-center line, then JFK was 17-18 feet from Martin. If it was a
foot or two more to the right, then Martin was 19-20 feet away.
Do you understand now, why I said "almost 20 feet"??
I would be happy to send you some accurate illustrations, so that you
won't have to wonder or guess about this stuff, if you like.
> but Kennedy's brain matter was
> splattered all around.
"all around"????
Please share your analysis with us John, in particular, how you discovered
that blood and matter was blasted to the left with enough force to travel
such a distance.
You have cited Itek on many occasions, John. Why aren't you citing them
now? In fact, this is what you stated in a post, some time ago:
"Itek carefully studied this issue -- using the original Z-film -- in the
1970s They concluded wrt the head explosion:
1. All major particles travel forward.
2. Although the explosion produces a spray of fine particulate matter
which is dispersed in all directions, the dominant direction is again
forward.
3. The particles traveling upward and forward are traveling very rapidly.
It is believed that those particles are two or three fragments of bone."
So, Itek confirmed, that all "major" particles went forward and upward.
The *ONLY* thing that traveled "all around" was a very fine spray.
Do you still agree with Itek, John?
If so, you must then believe, that this fine spray is what struck Hargis
and Martin. Is that your opinion?
> Chaney, on the right side of the limo, was also
> splattered with brain matter, and so were the Connallys.
Of course. The Connallys were indeed, forward, and only a couple feet
away. Chaney was hit by material from the *right* side of the head.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm
>
>
> > And finally, there is the fact that the wind was blowing from the
> > Southwest at that instant, as we can see by looking at the coats of Mary
> > Moorman and Jean Hill in the Muchmore film. IOW, it was blowing the blood
> > and debris *away* from the motorcycle cops.
> >
>
> No, it was blowing it *backwards* relative to the limo.
Huh?
Have you even bothered to look at the Muchmore frame I posted in my
article, John?
Do you dispute the fact that Moorman and Hill's coats are being blown to
their right (Eastward) and ahead of them (to the North)??
> That by itself
> would not get it to the left on Hargis, but the simple fact is that
> Kennedy's head exploded and matter flew in a wide arc.
That's not what Itek, whom you have cited ad nauseum over the years, said.
They *only* talked about a very fine mist, or "spray of fine particulate
matter" going in all directions. They described all major particles as
going forward and upward.
Have you carried out some new research that contradicts the Itek folks,
John?
Or do you now contradict their findings, because their conclusions are
only useful in other debates?
>
>
> > I posted an illustration and some other images that should make the
> > position of the two officers very clear, as well as the far more likely
> > trajectory of the shot that actually spattered them. The URL is:
> >
> > http://www.c-works.com/jfk/lastshot/lastshot.htm
> >
> > There was a second head shot, roughly 1/2 second after the one at
> > Z312-313. It is absolutely preposterous to believe that the 313 shot
> > caused Hargis and Martin to be hit by blood and tissue as they were.
> >
>
>
> But it seems that "second head shot" is nowhere visible in any of the
> photos of Kennedy's head exploding. It's not in Zapruder, nor in Nix,
> nor in Muchmore.
The "shot" is not visible at Z313 either, John - only the explosion.
But tell me - where do you see in Zapruder, Nix, or Muchmore, material
being blown to Kennedy's *LEFT* at 313???
Certainly, Itek saw no such thing, and neither do you.
Ergo, unless we buy in to the "film is altered" theories, I think we have
to conclude that blood and other matter blown to the left, just isn't
visible in the films, regardless of which frame it happened in. In the
Zfilm, the cowlick area of the head is not visible at 323, BTW.
>
> And none of the Dealey Plaza witnesses mention it.
Actually, a surprisingly large number of witnesses, clearly described a
shot coming immediately after the first head wound, or said they heard a
flurry of 3 shots, as the limo passed a point nearly halfway between
Houston and the underpass.
>
> So your theory relies on an invisible shot.
Your choice of language is disappointing, John.
All shots are invisible to the human eye. What I think you really mean is
that the spectacular explosion at 313 is visible, whereas the one I
describe is not.
Of course, when you describe all this accurately and without spin, it
isn't very persuasive is it:-)
> On your web page you say:
>
> <Quote on>
>
> I am convinced that this shot entered in the temple area which was
> already damaged by the explosive shot at Z312-313. It exploded (was
> probably a mercury load) blowing out blood, skull and tissue, out from
> the cowlick area in the upper rear of the President's head.
>
> <Quote off>
>
> So we have this "exploding" bullet that blows brain matter backwards.
Yes, and at 313, we have an "exploding" bullet blowing brain matter
upward, forward, and to the right.
Do you intend to ridicule that shot too, John?
> But somehow the explosion was invisible.
They were not at all the same kind of explosions, John.
Of course, 313 was massive and devastating. The one at 323, was certainly,
much smaller and more localized. I would compare it with a shotgun strike,
where the pellets are tightly bunched.
Look, we already know that a 4 cm chunk of skull was blown out the back of
the head, in the cowlick area. Dr. Boswell confirmed that, both through
his statements to the HSCA, and in his drawing.
We also know there was a bullethole in that piece of skull, and that metal
was found near it, that was extruding to the outside of the skull - do we
not??
So, all that is left, John, is for us to decide whether that damage was
done by a shot from the rear, striking the head at nearly 2000 fps
(possibly much more), and causing "all major particles" to go forward, or
whether this was caused by a shot from the right-front.
I would seriously question whether your theory is even remotely possible,
let alone likely.
But tell me John, among all the shooting tests that were done by people
like Latimer, how many produced results that were even remotely like what
you would have us believe happened, after the 313 shot?
How many caused bullet fragments to embed in the *back* of the head?
How many blew out the right side of the head while spraying objects 20
feet to the left?
How many caused skull in the rear of the head to be blown out, and backward?
How many caused chunks of brain tissue to fly backward?
Robert Harris
bytem...@my-deja.com
6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:35:59 GMT, clint...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >In article <36d77bad...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> > 6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> >
> >Just FYI, I talked with Hargis in 1995, and wrote:
> >
> >Ten Dallas policemen are currently on the force who were employed by Dallas PD
> >in 1963. Then motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis is approachable, and will become
> >sullen before your eyes as he relates his story.
> >
> >He was on the force only a week when he was given the assignment to flank
> >JFK's limo - left side, ten feet behind.
> >
> >"I'm the only one living who was beside the car. When [JFK] was shot in the
> >head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It
> >came up and down, all over my uniform."
> >
>
> Yep, that's what many of us have been saying for a long time. He "ran
> into" the brain matter, rather than being "hit hard."
>
Just what was the speed of that motorcycle? Please tell us.
>
> >A few minutes later, while at the TSBD, a co-worker leaned forward and flicked
> >something off Hargis' upper lip.
> >
> >"It was a piece of the President," Hargis said, as his gaze clouds through
> >tearing eyes.
> >
>
> You can see him telling about this in TMWKK. He also tells about a
> recurring nightmare of a shooter in the SN, he sees him, and shouts,
> but nobody hears him.
>
> .John
>
> The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
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