Chauncey Holt & Bud Belcher
tims...@gmail.com
The following page comes from the JFKmurdersolved website and features a
photo allegedly showing Chauncey Holt outside the International Trade Mart
in New Orleans in 1963 with Lee Harvey Oswald:
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush4.htm
Holt, who claimed to be one of *The Three Tramps*, has identified two
other people in the photo, one of whom he names as Bud Belcher, a pilot
from Cuba.
The following four page FBI Airtel of 3/3/67 clearly shows that the person
Holt identifies as Bud Belcher is, in fact, John Alice. Alice ran a
business out of International Trade Mart in 1963:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60405&relPageId=53
You'd have to wonder how any person or website could give credence to any
claim by Chauncey Holt, given his made up nonsense about Bud Belcher, a
supposed pilot from Cuba.
Presumably his ID of another figure in the photo as Leroy Young is equally
as bogus.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Dave Reitzes
> Hi All,
>
> The following page comes from the JFKmurdersolved website and features a
> photo allegedly showing Chauncey Holt outside the International Trade Mart
> in New Orleans in 1963 with Lee Harvey Oswald:
>
> http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush4.htm
>
> Holt, who claimed to be one of *The Three Tramps*, has identified two
> other people in the photo, one of whom he names as Bud Belcher, a pilot
> from Cuba.
>
> The following four page FBI Airtel of 3/3/67 clearly shows that the person
> Holt identifies as Bud Belcher is, in fact, John Alice. Alice ran a
> business out of International Trade Mart in 1963:
>
>
> You'd have to wonder how any person or website could give credence to any
> claim by Chauncey Holt, given his made up nonsense about Bud Belcher, a
> supposed pilot from Cuba.
Wim Dankbaar is hardly known for his critical faculties.
Dave
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
That's true. And let's not forget that Wim is a VERY big backer of the
Judyth Vary Baker story. :-)
Still, the annotated photo is also up at the Education Forum, albeit with
something of a qualifier at the end of the text:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm
Doesn't seem to be much ambiguity about the photo caption they use,
though.
BTW, *Murder In Dealey Plaza* features a photo of Chauncey and the book's
editor, Jim Fetzer, in fraternal pose on page 118. Chauncey has had all
sorts of believers, it seems.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
thali...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
One things for sure is that the "old tramp" who Chauncey claimed to be
is not Gus Abrams (as ID'd by the authorities) whose facial
characteristics do not even come close to matching.
Dave Reitzes
> TOP POST
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> That's true. And let's not forget that Wim is a VERY big backer of the
> Judyth Vary Baker story. :-)
Well, that's what I hear. He's never revealed the extent of his support,
of course. And he's been pretty quiet about her over the last few years,
hasn't he?
> Still, the annotated photo is also up at the Education Forum, albeit with
> something of a qualifier at the end of the text:
>
> http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm
>
> Doesn't seem to be much ambiguity about the photo caption they use,
> though.
>
> BTW, *Murder In Dealey Plaza* features a photo of Chauncey and the book's
> editor, Jim Fetzer, in fraternal pose on page 118. Chauncey has had all
> sorts of believers, it seems.
Holt even managed to attract some mainstream media publicity in the wake
of Oliver Stone's JFK, but the documentation about the true identities of
the "tramps" emerged shortly thereafter, relegating him to the lunatic
fringe.
Dave
thali...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://www.ajweberman.com/images_other/abramss.jpg
Tim, how do a man ears grow like that?
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Thalia,
Actually, I think that the human ears DO grow longer as we get older.
I'm sure I've read that somewhere. And I think you need to look at
more than that. The nose and down turned mouth of Abrams are a very
good match with the tramp photo in the comparison you have posted.
In fact, much better than Chauncey Holt's. His mouth appears to curl
up in a semi smile, presumably because he's happy about hoodwinking
people like Jim Fetzer and Wim Dankbaar with his fairytale nonsense
about being at ITM with Oswald in August 1963, among other things.
His claims about the non-existent Bud Belcher prove he was a liar. The
FBI concluded that the man in the photograph was John Alice back in
1963.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
> Tim, how do a man ears grow like that?- Hide quoted text -
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
On Jul 12, 7:22 am, Dave Reitzes <dreit...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 1:00 am, timst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > TOP POST
>
> > Hi Dave,
>
> > That's true. And let's not forget that Wim is a VERY big backer of the
> > Judyth Vary Baker story. :-)
>
> Well, that's what I hear. He's never revealed the extent of his support,
> of course. And he's been pretty quiet about her over the last few years,
> hasn't he?
>
I notice, though, that he is hosting a recent pencil sketch portrait
(circa April 2008) of Lee by Judyth on his website. Plus there seems to be
a DVD interview of her available from his site as well, not to mention Jim
Files and Chauncey Holt productions also available.
Quite a number of dubious sources, all available in the one place,
really. :-)
> > Still, the annotated photo is also up at the Education Forum, albeit with
> > something of a qualifier at the end of the text:
>
> >http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm
>
> > Doesn't seem to be much ambiguity about the photo caption they use,
> > though.
>
> > BTW, *Murder In Dealey Plaza* features a photo of Chauncey and the book's
> > editor, Jim Fetzer, in fraternal pose on page 118. Chauncey has had all
> > sorts of believers, it seems.
>
> Holt even managed to attract some mainstream media publicity in the wake
> of Oliver Stone's JFK, but the documentation about the true identities of
> the "tramps" emerged shortly thereafter, relegating him to the lunatic
> fringe.
>
Say, it looks like Martin Shackelford was once a believer in Chauncey Holt
at the Trade Mart with Oswald at one point, judging by this:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=16238&relPageId=37
> Dave
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Thalia,
Here is an article from The British Medical Journal (BMJ) that
apparently found that the ears DO get longer as we age:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/311/7021/1668
I think Gus Abrams looks far more like the old tramp than Chauncey
Holt does. The made up nonsense about *Bud Belcher* proves that
Chauncey Holt is a liar. Can we say the same about Abrams?
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
> > > > other people in the photo, one of whom he names asBudBelcher, a pilot
> > > > from Cuba.
>
> > > > The following four page FBI Airtel of 3/3/67 clearly shows that the person
> > > > Holt identifies asBudBelcheris, in fact, John Alice. Alice ran a
> > > > business out of International Trade Mart in 1963:
>
> > > >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=604...
>
> > > > You'd have to wonder how any person or website could give credence to any
> > > > claim by Chauncey Holt, given his made up nonsense aboutBudBelcher, a
> > > > supposed pilot from Cuba.
>
> > > Wim Dankbaar is hardly known for his critical faculties.
>
> > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> One things for sure is that the "old tramp" who Chauncey claimed to be
> is not Gus Abrams (as ID'd by the authorities) whose facial
> characteristics do not even come close to matching.- Hide quoted text -
Dave Reitzes
In fairness, he only says that the people in the photo are alleged to be
Rogers and Holt.
Dave
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
I guess that is true, though I think he could have put a much stronger
qualifier on Holt's claim, or not mentioned it at all, given that it
is so absurd.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
tims...@gmail.com
PS And I meant to add, Martin makes a habit of asserting rather
dubious scenarios as fact, often based on very thin evidence, in my
view.
:-)
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Dave Reitzes
> qualifier on Holt's claim, or not mentioned it at all, given that it
> is so absurd.
Agreed. I see no point in mentioning such a dopey claim.
Dave Reitzes
> dubious scenarios as fact, often based on very thin evidence, in my
> view.
>
> :-)
Oh, you noticed that, too?
Dave \:^)
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
Sorry for the late response. Agreed. BTW, I notice that Wim Dankbaar
now has a YouTube video site featuring a couple of Chauncey Holt
clips, one of him practically breaking down over Oswald. Chauncey's
nonsense is about as believable as Judyth Vary Baker's, LOL!
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Dave Reitzes
> now has a YouTube video site featuring a couple of Chauncey Holt
> clips, one of him practically breaking down over Oswald. Chauncey's
> nonsense is about as believable as Judyth Vary Baker's, LOL!
There has never been any shortage of people claiming involvement or inside
knowledge of a JFK conspiracy or evidence. Even as early as 1967, Sylvia
Meagher noted that there were so many self-professed conspiracy "insiders"
coming forward, she assumed they were part of a widespread government
disinformation campaign.
John McAdams
>On Sep 17, 6:18?pm, timst...@gmail.com wrote:
>> TOP POST
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Sorry for the late response. Agreed. BTW, I notice that Wim Dankbaar
>> now has a YouTube video site featuring a couple of Chauncey Holt
>> clips, one of him practically breaking down over Oswald. Chauncey's
>> nonsense is about as believable as Judyth Vary Baker's, LOL!
>
>
>There has never been any shortage of people claiming involvement or inside
>knowledge of a JFK conspiracy or evidence. Even as early as 1967, Sylvia
>Meagher noted that there were so many self-professed conspiracy "insiders"
>coming forward, she assumed they were part of a widespread government
>disinformation campaign.
>
>
Yea. It could not possibly be that there are a fair number of
crackpots in the world, and that they tend to gravitate to this case.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
Yeah, it couldn't be that it was the Crime of the Century and was
unsolved due to a government cover-up?
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
Very true. And we can also add the name of Thomas Edward Beckham to
those who have made up nonsense about who is in the WDSU film of
Oswald's FPCC picketing of New Orleans International Trade Mart in
August 1963.
Chauncey Holt, Judyth Vary Baker, Thomas Edward Beckham, the list goes
on...
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Dave Reitzes
> those who have made up nonsense about who is in the WDSU film of
> Oswald's FPCC picketing of New Orleans International Trade Mart in
> August 1963.
>
> Chauncey Holt, Judyth Vary Baker, Thomas Edward Beckham, the list goes
> on...
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Brennan
> Sydney, Australia
> *Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
The introduction to my article on Gordon Arnold touches upon some
related issues:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arnold1.htm
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. \:^)
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Tony,
Hmm, no, I don't think it could have been that. The Warren Commision
pretty much solved the mystery, in my view.
Regards,
Tim Brennan,
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
On Sep 19, 10:31 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> John McAdams wrote:
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
Very interesting. Thanks for providing the link.
Here is a brief rundown of those who've (recently) made absurd claims
about Oswald's FPCC leafletting of International trade Mart in 1963
and the WDSU film of the incident:
JUDYTH VARY BAKER
Claimed at first to be the Victoria Realpey-Plaza figure in the film,
before finally settling on Clemencia Almeida. Unlike Baker, Almeida
has a verifiable link to International Trade Mart in 1963. She worked
there. Baker's account of being present when Oswald leafletted fails
on over a dozen factual grounds, rendering her entire account useless,
in my view.
CHAUNCEY MARVIN HOLT
Claims on the Murder Solved website that a man in the WDSU film is Bud
Belcher, a pilot from Cuba. It isn't. It's John Alice, a man who ran
an import export company out of International Trade Mart in 1963. No
one has ever heard of Bud Belcher. Appears to render the DVD of
Chauncey Holt memories available from Murder Solved a useless
artifact.
THOMAS EDWARD BECKHAM
Claimed to author Joan Mellen, in her book A Farewell To Justice, to
have been at International Trade Mart that day and to be in the WDSU
film. He isn't. The figure he has nominated himself as being is
Junichi Ehara, a Japanese businessman who also worked out of
International Trade Mart in 1963 and knew John Alice. Given the
gravitas with which Beckham's claims are treated by Mellen, appears to
blow a big ol' hole in her book. Someone tell Potomac Press.
ANGELO MURGADO (KENNEDY)
Claimed to author David Talbot in the recent book Brothers to have
observed, prior to the JFK assassination, newspaper photographs of
Oswald distributing his FPCC leaflets in New Orleans and to have shown
this material to Robert Kennedy, also prior to the assassination.
Totally wrong. There never were any newspaper photographs of Oswald's
activities in New Orleans prior to the assassination. Appears to blow
rather a large hole in Talbot's book as Murgado is considered an
important witness.
Who will be next?
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
tims...@gmail.com
>
> Here is a brief rundown of those who've (recently) made absurd claims
> about Oswald's FPCC leafletting of International trade Mart in 1963
> and the WDSU film of the incident:
>
> JUDYTH VARY BAKER
> Claimed at first to be the Victoria Realpey-Plaza figure in the film,
> before finally settling on Clemencia Almeida. Unlike Baker, Almeida
> has a verifiable link to International Trade Mart in 1963. She worked
> there. Baker's account of being present when Oswald leafletted fails
> on over a dozen factual grounds, rendering her entire account useless,
> in my view.
>
> CHAUNCEY MARVIN HOLT
> an import export company out of International Trade Mart in 1963. No
BUMP
Dave Reitzes
Well, if memory serves, Richard Case Nagell made some kind of claim
about one or two of the men in the photos. Do you have THE MAN WHO
KNEW TOO MUCH?
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Dave,
That's a good point! In fact, I went back and checked The Man Who Knew
Too Much and discovered it was actually the author, Dick Russell, and
not Nagell who was making absurd claims about people in the WDSU Trade
Mart film.
In a section beginning on page 89, entitled *More Oswald-Oriental
Ties*, Russell makes much of *an Oriental man with glasses, his arms
akimbo behind his head* standing directly behind Oswald in the film
and attempts to draw a number of sinister conclusions.
He names the man as possibly being called O'Hari, claiming that that
ID comes from an FBI report (it isn't, it is from a Secret Service
report) and then rather grudgingly mentions the name Ehara in passing
in the endnotes, before ploughing on with more sinister speculation of
the Oriental kind.
Of course, had he done a bit more homework, he would have found that
the person was, in fact, named Junichi Ehara, the FBI had identified
and interviewed him and he simply worked at the International Trade
Mart and was on his way out to lunch when the film was made. nothing
more sinister than that.
But why settle for a simple explanation when you're trying to prop up
a witness as bad as Richard Case Nagell? Russell may need to confer
with Joan Mellen, who has since gone into print claiming that the
Oriental gentleman is, in fact, Thomas Edward Beckham, her star
witness, LOL!
Both Russell and Mellen appear to have very little grasp of a factual
nature of the events at the Trade Mart that day.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Questioning
tims...@gmail.com
Hi,
And your response means precisely...what?
I don't see how it relates to what is being discussed re people making
things up about an historical event.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
On Oct 12, 12:46 pm, "Questioning" <1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There was a conspiracy!