Fritz Picks up the Hulls in the Depository (50 Reasons To Suspect

[dklou...@comcast.net]

#9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls

Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
hulls.
But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
pick them
up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
up said
hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney, & newsperson
Tom Alyea.

Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
when you
can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!

--
Donald Willis

[bigdog]

The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?

[Ace Kefford]

Bigdog,

You hit the nail on the head. Too many of the conspiracy-oriented
folks point to all kinds of odd events or discrepancies,but never go
to the next step of what does this mean for what actually happened
that day in Dallas and how the "conspiracy" took place and who was
involved.

It's the excessive focus on the trivia and the "disputes" that keeps
them from really thinking about the real world facts of what probably
happened AND what are the genuine issues (if any) that point to a
possible conspiracy and suggest that the assassination and cover-up
happened in this specific way.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney & Alyea specified
that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived: Mooney:
"[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I
know, because I stood there & watched him go over & pick them up." 2)
Fritz led readers of his affidavit & testimony to believe that he did not
even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but
he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney & co. said that *Fritz*
first picked them up.

dcw

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, bigdog wrote:
> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>> hulls.
>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>> pick them
>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>> up said

>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>> when you
>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>> --
>> Donald Willis
>
> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>

The point is that Fritz picked them up and then threw them back down. So
their positions in the official crime scene evidence photos are not
indicative of where they were at the moment of the assassination. Same
with the boxes.

You seem to not be able to understand the difference between the
conspiracy to commit a crime and the CYA cover-up after the crime. Like
Nixon erasing the Watergate tapes. That alone does not prove that HE
himself personally broke into the Watergate that night.

[John Blubaugh]

You have to understand that Big Dog and a few others simply do not
understand the concept of protecting the evidence. They made up their
minds and they don't care about the evidence. There are lots of examples
of this behavior from them. They didn't care about keeping the evidence
from becoming contaminated before the defenses expert witnesses could
examine it.

JB

[bigdog]

On Jun 8, 3:20 pm, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:

> On Jun 8, 7:55 am, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > > #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>
> > > Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
> > > hulls.
> > > But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
> > > pick them
> > > up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
> > > up said
> > > hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney, & newsperson
> > > Tom Alyea.
>
> > > Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
> > > when you
> > > can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>
> > > --
> > > Donald Willis
>
> > The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
> > point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
> > left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
> > an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
> > reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>
> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate.  1) Mooney & Alyea specified
> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived:

Mooney said he stood guard until Fritz and his officers arrived.

> Mooney:
> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I
> know, because I stood there & watched him go over & pick them up."

Key phrase. "as far as I know".

> 2) Fritz led readers of his affidavit & testimony to believe that he did not
> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but
> he said that others did (Sims, I believe).  Mooney & co. said that *Fritz*
> first picked them up.
>

So once again we have a conflicting account of what happened. Once again,
conflicting testimony is not evidence of a conspiracy. Let's say for the
sake of argument that Fritz did pick up the shells before they were
photographed. How in any way is that indicative of a conspiracy? You need
to connect the dots here. How would Fritz mishandling evidence indicate
that anybody except Oswald took part in the crime?

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 6/8/12 5:33 PM, John Blubaugh wrote:
> On Jun 8, 3:20 pm, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 7:55 am, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>>> hulls.
>>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>>> pick them
>>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>>> up said

>>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>>>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>>> when you
>>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Donald Willis
>>
>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>

>> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney& Alyea specified

>> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived: Mooney:
>> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I

>> know, because I stood there& watched him go over& pick them up." 2)
>> Fritz led readers of his affidavit& testimony to believe that he did not

>> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
>> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but

>> he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney& co. said that *Fritz*

>> first picked them up.
>>
>> dcw
>
> You have to understand that Big Dog and a few others simply do not
> understand the concept of protecting the evidence. They made up their
> minds and they don't care about the evidence. There are lots of examples
> of this behavior from them. They didn't care about keeping the evidence
> from becoming contaminated before the defenses expert witnesses could
> examine it.
>
> JB
>

So you think the shells should *still* be sitting on the floor of what
is now the Sixth Floor Museum, or to your mind the evidence has been
tampered with.

This reminds me of when you said the FBI should have left fibers
unanalyzed so that the defense could do its own tests (although the sole
reason the FBI couldn't make a 100% positive match was that there
weren't enough fibers to analyze...).

Of course, after the shells were photographed, there was no reason not
to move them.

/sandy

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/8/2012 3:20 PM, Ace Kefford wrote:
> On Jun 8, 10:55 am, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>> hulls.
>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>> pick them
>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>> up said

>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>> when you
>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>>> --
>>> Donald Willis
>>
>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>
> Bigdog,
>
> You hit the nail on the head. Too many of the conspiracy-oriented
> folks point to all kinds of odd events or discrepancies,but never go
> to the next step of what does this mean for what actually happened
> that day in Dallas and how the "conspiracy" took place and who was
> involved.

Too many of the WC defenders point to any minor discrepancy as absolute
proof of Oswald's guilt. Like his leaving his wedding ring in the cup at
the Paine's residence. Only a murderer would ever take off his wedding
ring they argue.

We have a well-known WC defender who points to the photo of Oswald with
his right arm raised and says that is the well-known Communist victory
salute which indicates that Oswald was confessing and quite proud of
assassinating the President to further the Communist cause.

[Jason Burke]

On 6/8/2012 9:16 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Jun 8, 3:20 pm, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 7:55 am, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>>> hulls.
>>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>>> pick them
>>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>>> up said

>>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>>>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>>> when you
>>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Donald Willis
>>
>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>

>> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney& Alyea specified

>> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived:
>
> Mooney said he stood guard until Fritz and his officers arrived.
>
>> Mooney:
>> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I

>> know, because I stood there& watched him go over& pick them up."

>
> Key phrase. "as far as I know".
>

>> 2) Fritz led readers of his affidavit& testimony to believe that he did not

>> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
>> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but

>> he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney& co. said that *Fritz*

>> first picked them up.
>>
>
> So once again we have a conflicting account of what happened. Once again,
> conflicting testimony is not evidence of a conspiracy. Let's say for the
> sake of argument that Fritz did pick up the shells before they were
> photographed. How in any way is that indicative of a conspiracy? You need
> to connect the dots here. How would Fritz mishandling evidence indicate
> that anybody except Oswald took part in the crime?
>

Yes, there may be dots here.
But you are correct. Connecting them shows absolutely no evidence of
conspiracy.

Thought some CT fools would like to think that they do.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

I've noticed, yes, that they don't seem to care about evidence
contamination, or pretend it didn't happen.
dcw

[dklou...@comcast.net]

On Jun 8, 12:21 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, bigdog wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>
> >> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
> >> hulls.
> >> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
> >> pick them
> >> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
> >> up said
> >> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,&  newsperson
> >> Tom Alyea.
>
> >> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
> >> when you
> >> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>
> >> --
> >> Donald Willis
>
> > The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
> > point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
> > left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
> > an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
> > reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>
> The point is that Fritz picked them up and then threw them back down.

The latter is simply your assumption. None of the three witnesses said
what Fritz did with them after he picked them up, or was handed them:
Mooney (v3p286), Faulkner (v19p511), or Alyea (Secrets from the Sixth
Floor WIndow p40). Alyea, however, later said Fritz pocketed them & later
handed them to Studebaker....

dcw

[dklou...@comcast.net]

We don't know. Did he put back the same shells? Did he put back the same
number of shells? Did he put them back in the area in which he found
them? His action opens the door for... anything, including conspiracy, or
harmless tampering, or collecting of mementos.... At the least, his
affidavit & testimony are misdirection--he suggested in both that he did
not touch the hulls in the depository.

dcw

[Research]

> > On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > > #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>
> > > Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
> > > hulls.
> > > But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
> > > pick them
> > > up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
> > > up said
> > > hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney, & newsperson
> > > Tom Alyea.
>
> > > Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
> > > when you
> > > can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!

It only shows the enpt DPD. From the leaders on down. Maybe it was Fritz's
fingerprints on the hulls. Then Day claimed to have Oswald's. The LNers
and DPD twist evidence to pont to Oswald's guilt. As Mooney watched Fritz
pick up the hulls, the DPD din't have a clue as to who Oswald even was?
The DPD falsified evidence to point to Oswald, this is classic police
work.

[bigdog]

For the conspiracy theorists to make all sorts of wild speculations.

> anything, including conspiracy, or
> harmless tampering, or collecting of mementos.... At the least, his
> affidavit & testimony are misdirection--he suggested in both that he did
> not touch the hulls in the depository.
>

Since I wasn't there, I have know way of knowing whose account is accurate
and whose is not. What I don't see is any evidence that anyone was engaged
in a cover up or a frame up. I see nothing to indicate that everyone
involved was not doing their best to determine who killed JFK.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/9/2012 10:07 AM, Research wrote:
>>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>>> hulls.
>>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>>> pick them
>>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>>> up said

>>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>>>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>>> when you
>>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department
>>> was
>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>

>> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney& Alyea specified

>> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived:
>
> Mooney said he stood guard until Fritz and his officers arrived.
>
>> Mooney:
>> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I

>> know, because I stood there& watched him go over& pick them up."

>
> Key phrase. "as far as I know".
>

>> 2) Fritz led readers of his affidavit& testimony to believe that he did

>> not
>> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
>> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but

>> he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney& co. said that *Fritz*

>> first picked them up.
>>
>
> So once again we have a conflicting account of what happened. Once again,
> conflicting testimony is not evidence of a conspiracy. Let's say for the
> sake of argument that Fritz did pick up the shells before they were
> photographed. How in any way is that indicative of a conspiracy? You need
> to connect the dots here. How would Fritz mishandling evidence indicate
> that anybody except Oswald took part in the crime?
>
> It only shows the enpt DPD. From the leaders on down. Maybe it was Fritz's
> fingerprints on the hulls. Then Day claimed to have Oswald's. The LNers
> and DPD twist evidence to pont to Oswald's guilt. As Mooney watched Fritz
> pick up the hulls, the DPD din't have a clue as to who Oswald even was?
> The DPD falsified evidence to point to Oswald, this is classic police
> work.

I see nothing unusual about the DPD covering up evidence of its own
ineptness and mishandling of evidence. I think every law enforcement
department does it daily. Remember the OJ Simpson case?

[Bud]

What impact has your deep concern had on anything?

[Bud]

How do we know Fritz wasn`t an alien?

Gee, this is fun.

[John Blubaugh]

That is the whole idea. The shells were moved and touched before they
were photographed......

JB

[Sandy McCroskey]

There's no proof of that.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

Certainly, there is. Lt Day & homicide Det. Sims handled the
photographing & collecting of shells. It was Sims who bagged them
immediately after Day photographed them, & Sims testified that he took
them to Homicide. In other words, Fritz could not have handled the
shells after photographing. The only time that he could have picked
them up was *before* photographing, and three witnesses saw him....
dcw

[dklou...@comcast.net]

Faith is always touching to behold, even if it's grievously
misplaced....
dcw

[Research]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4fd3a976$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

And Simpson walked because the police were inept. AND they falsified
evidence to point to Simpson when the real did not. Even their own experts
contridicted the police records. Simpson walked because the evidence lead
to someone else, the police focused on Simpson. The real killer hid behind
the police ineptness and their efforts to frame Simpson because of their
own selfish political motives. So the real killer walked too. And judge
Ito openly wept because he lost his film and book deal when Simpson was
freed. So you go figure? > On this issue, I have to agree. This case is
full of bungling. Police records show a photo with the hulls lying on the
floor behind the box nest. Was this photo taken before Fritz stupidly
picked up the hulls? Or after Fritz realised his ignorance? Or did Fritz
plant hulls that were never there? These hulls would never have been
allowed in evidence in any courtroom. But we have the LNer court of
opinion who allow corrupted evidence and twisted testimony at their own
opinion.

[bigdog]

You guys take it on faith that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK even
though none of you has ever offered any hard evidence that anyone except
LHO was involved in the crime. We have plenty of hard evidence of Oswald's
involvement. You guys take it on faith that there was a conspiracy to kill
JFK. You assume there was a cover up to hide that. Everything you propose
is based on wild speculation. In your world, if somebody could have done
something wrong, they must have done something wrong.

[Bud]

Your series (as does conspiracy theory in general) offers the reader the
choice between the idea of Oswald being guilty and everybody out to get
him. You just can`t muster the kind of evidence you need to support the
latter, your weak sister approach doesn`t come close. If this is what the
idea of conspiracy rests upon then the WC`s conclusions are safe.

[Sandy McCroskey]

> Certainly, there is. Lt Day& homicide Det. Sims handled the
> photographing& collecting of shells. It was Sims who bagged them
> immediately after Day photographed them,& Sims testified that he took

> them to Homicide. In other words, Fritz could not have handled the
> shells after photographing. The only time that he could have picked
> them up was *before* photographing, and three witnesses saw him....
> dcw
>

You call that "proof"?
Well, that explains a lot.

What you have, instead of anything like "proof" is Deputy Luke Mooney's
recollection (in 1964) that Fritz moved the shells, and your assumption
that this could not have happened (assuming, of course, that it happened
at all) after they were photographed, because you assume that Sims's
having bagged them "immediately" after Day photographed them left not even
a minute for Fritz to investigate the caliber of one of them, if he had
then been so inclined (I wonder how you think you know this).

What you've got there is only somebody's, possibly faulty, memory and a
whole lot of conjecture passed off as certainty.
From Bugliosi's End Notes, pg. 417:

<quote on>

Captain Fritz, however, denied moving the shells, testifying before the
Warren Commission that he ordered the officers present ?not to move the
cartridges [actually, cartridge cases], not to touch anything until we
could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying
there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done? (4 H
205). Though I don?t automatically discount Mooney?s version of events, I
do find it pretty hard to believe that Captain Fritz, a thirty-year
veteran and highly regarded leader of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau,
would be foolish enough to move evidence at a crime scene, in full view of
everyone, before photographs had been taken (even a rookie cop, having
just gone through training at the police academy, would know he wasn?t
supposed to do this),? then instruct the men around him not to do what he
had just done. Further, in a later interview for a book, Mooney changed
his story and said Fritz only picked up ?one? of the shell casings ?to see
what caliber it was? (Sneed, No More Silence, p.226). I doubt Fritz would
have even done that before photographs were taken of the crime scene, but
even if he did that we can assume he put the shell back in the same place
he had picked it up from.

</quote off>

(Of course, Bugliosi means to say he *thinks* we can assume Fritz would've
"put the shell back in the same place..." not, as his sentence actually
came out, that he "doubt[s]...we can assume" that. Proust he's not.)

I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
no proof that he did.

/sandy

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/10/2012 11:38 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Jun 10, 8:34 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Jun 9, 5:18 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 9, 10:04 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jun 8, 9:16 pm, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Jun 8, 3:20 pm, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>>>> On Jun 8, 7:55 am, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>>>>>>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>>>>>>> hulls.
>>>>>>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>>>>>>> pick them
>>>>>>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>>>>>>> up said

>>>>>>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>>>>>>>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>>>>>>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>>>>>>> when you
>>>>>>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Donald Willis
>>
>>>>>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>>>>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>>>>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>>>>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>>>>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>

>>>>>> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney& Alyea specified

>>>>>> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived:
>>
>>>>> Mooney said he stood guard until Fritz and his officers arrived.
>>
>>>>>> Mooney:
>>>>>> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I

>>>>>> know, because I stood there& watched him go over& pick them up."

>>
>>>>> Key phrase. "as far as I know".
>>

>>>>>> 2) Fritz led readers of his affidavit& testimony to believe that he did not

>>>>>> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
>>>>>> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but

>>>>>> he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney& co. said that *Fritz*

>>>>>> first picked them up.
>>
>>>>> So once again we have a conflicting account of what happened. Once again,
>>>>> conflicting testimony is not evidence of a conspiracy. Let's say for the
>>>>> sake of argument that Fritz did pick up the shells before they were
>>>>> photographed. How in any way is that indicative of a conspiracy?
>>
>>>> We don't know. Did he put back the same shells? Did he put back the same
>>>> number of shells? Did he put them back in the area in which he found
>>>> them? His action opens the door for...
>>
>>> For the conspiracy theorists to make all sorts of wild speculations.
>>
>>>> anything, including conspiracy, or
>>>> harmless tampering, or collecting of mementos.... At the least, his

>>>> affidavit& testimony are misdirection--he suggested in both that he did

>>>> not touch the hulls in the depository.
>>
>>> Since I wasn't there, I have know way of knowing whose account is accurate
>>> and whose is not. What I don't see is any evidence that anyone was engaged
>>> in a cover up or a frame up. I see nothing to indicate that everyone
>>> involved was not doing their best to determine who killed JFK.
>>
>> Faith is always touching to behold, even if it's grievously
>> misplaced....
>> dcw
>
> Your series (as does conspiracy theory in general) offers the reader the
> choice between the idea of Oswald being guilty and everybody out to get
> him. You just can`t muster the kind of evidence you need to support the

No one was out to get him. Certain intelligence services were happy to
use him.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

On Jun 10, 8:47 pm, Sandy McCroskey <gwmccros...@earthlink.net> wrote:

One way I think I know is by reading the Sims/Boyd report (Sims Exh
A):
"Someone said the gun had been found. Capt. Fritz walked between a
stack of books to where the gun was laying.... Sims went back to where
Lt Day was & told him the gun had been found. Day or Studebaker took
another picture of the hulls. Sims picked up the empty hulls, & Day
held an envelope open while Sims dropped them in the envelope."

According to the report, then, only *Sims* of the Homicide crew went
back to the hull area as Day finished taking the photos.
dcw

Don't get me started on Proust. Pass the madeleines....

>
> I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
> no proof that he did.
>

The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner. No, not quite proof, but
getting close....

> /sandy

[Sandy McCroskey]

"Day or Studebaker [real precise here] took *another* picture of the
hulls."

Not surprising if there was an omission in the report. Of course it notes
the circumstances of the finding of the gun. It perhaps merely leaves out
Fritz's sort of casually inspecting the caliber of one of the hulls (after
the first photograph(s), but before the last one).

Proust is fantastic, but I think you have to read him in the original.

>> I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
>> no proof that he did.
>>
> The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
> witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
> and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner. No, not quite proof, but
> getting close....
>
>> /sandy
>
>

Yes, well, you've said, "To me, Mooney's testimony carries the most
evidentiary weight," but I should have phrased that differently. I don't
have any proof Fritz touched the shells before they were photographed (the
first time).

Even if you could prove that Fritz had touched the hulls before they were
photographed, it would take more than that to make me the least suspicious
of the Dallas Police Department as co-conspirators in the assassination of
JFK. The fact of the existence of the shots from the sixth floor of the
TSDB does not hinge on the finding of the hulls.


/sandy

[Bud]

Not to hear Don tell it.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

On Jun 11, 8:56 pm, Sandy McCroskey <gwmccros...@earthlink.net> wrote:

But of course Fritz, Sims & Boyd could not admit such an "omisson"
since Fritz all but denied even touching the hulls where they lay.

My French isn't that good. I've heard, too, that the more recent
English translation improved on the Scott-Moncrief (sp?). I love the
latter, but if I were granted a year to read, or re-read, I guess I'd
try the more recent one.

> >> I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
> >> no proof that he did.
>
> > The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
> > witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
> > and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner.  No, not quite proof, but
> > getting close....
>
> >> /sandy
>
> Yes, well, you've said, "To me, Mooney's testimony carries the most
> evidentiary weight," but I should have phrased that differently. I don't
> have any proof Fritz touched the shells before they were photographed (the
> first time).
>
> Even if you could prove that Fritz had touched the hulls before they were
> photographed, it would take more than that to make me the least suspicious
> of the Dallas Police Department as co-conspirators in the assassination of
> JFK. The fact of the existence of the shots from the sixth floor of the
> TSDB does not hinge on the finding of the hulls.
>
> /sandy

I think that only Fritz & Sawyer were in on the setting up; several
officers, though, were in on the cover-up....

[Anthony Marsh]

Straw man argument. No one is saying that the DPD conspired to kill the
President just because they were sloppy. The issue is contamination of
evidence.
No one said that the LA detectives killed OJ's wife and Ron Goldman. The
issue again is contamination of evidence.
In the case of the empty shells it does not affect their evidentiary
value that much because we know they were fired from Oswald's rifle no
matter where they landed on the floor.

> /sandy
>

[Sandy McCroskey]

I am not sure at all sure nobody is saying that. DKlounge seems to suspect
Fritz of doing more than merely picking up the hulls and putting them
right back. He says Fritz's alleged actions make the whole case fall
apart.

> No one said that the LA detectives killed OJ's wife and Ron Goldman. The
> issue again is contamination of evidence.
> In the case of the empty shells it does not affect their evidentiary
> value that much because we know they were fired from Oswald's rifle no
> matter where they landed on the floor.
>

Seems like I just heard someone say something like that... Oh, right, that
was me.

So contamination of this evidence is not an issue here. There is virtually
always some contamination of evidence in any big case. Sometimes, as here
with the hulls (if it existed), it is trivial .

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 6/11/12 9:01 AM, dklou...@comcast.net wrote:

>>
> The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
> witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
> and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner. No, not quite proof, but
> getting close....
>

P.S. to my previous reply:

Faulkner doesn't say the same thing Mooney did (either time) or the
reporter did. He doesn't say Fritz walked over and picked the hulls up or
that he lifted them to give the newsman a shot. He says that the shells
were given to Fritz after he arrived. Now, maybe he merely assumed this or
somehow got that impression. Or maybe he actually saw that and faulty
memory is to be blamed for the conflicting account that the hulls were
later delivered to Fritz's office. We have no way of knowing.

/sm

[Sandy McCroskey]

>>> Lt Day was& told him the gun had been found. Day or Studebaker took
>>> another picture of the hulls. Sims picked up the empty hulls,& Day

>>> held an envelope open while Sims dropped them in the envelope."
>>
>> "Day or Studebaker [real precise here] took *another* picture of the
>> hulls."
>>
>> Not surprising if there was an omission in the report. Of course it notes
>> the circumstances of the finding of the gun. It perhaps merely leaves out
>> Fritz's sort of casually inspecting the caliber of one of the hulls (after
>> the first photograph(s), but before the last one).
>>

> But of course Fritz, Sims& Boyd could not admit such an "omisson"

Oh, I misunderstood your earlier comment. For some reason I thought you
were knocking Proust. Sorry!
I always found the Scott Moncrieff translation somewhat fusty, whenever
I dipped into it. Richard Howard started one, but gave it up. I've heard
about the newer one, but I think it starts by getting the title finally
right (instead of lifting from Shakespeare).

>>>> I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
>>>> no proof that he did.
>>
>>> The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
>>> witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
>>> and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner. No, not quite proof, but
>>> getting close....
>>
>>>> /sandy
>>
>> Yes, well, you've said, "To me, Mooney's testimony carries the most
>> evidentiary weight," but I should have phrased that differently. I don't
>> have any proof Fritz touched the shells before they were photographed (the
>> first time).
>>
>> Even if you could prove that Fritz had touched the hulls before they were
>> photographed, it would take more than that to make me the least suspicious
>> of the Dallas Police Department as co-conspirators in the assassination of
>> JFK. The fact of the existence of the shots from the sixth floor of the
>> TSDB does not hinge on the finding of the hulls.
>>
>> /sandy
>

> I think that only Fritz& Sawyer were in on the setting up; several

> officers, though, were in on the cover-up....
>

A set up! Oh, dear.
I have to wonder, How do you get several officers to be "in on" a
cover-up and keep it covered up?

You need more than this hull-abaloo to show any such thing.
More than fiber tests (pace John Blubaugh) that were deemed inconclusive
to prove a frame-up.
More than tests for gunpowder residue (pace Pat Speare) that let Oswald
off the hook to prove the fix was in.
Et ainsi de suite...

/sandy

[Anthony Marsh]

I don't agree with him, but prosecutorial misconduct can cause a case to
fall apart. Such as the OJ Simpson case. But no one suggested that the
prosecutors killed OJ's wife and Ron Goldman.

>
>> No one said that the LA detectives killed OJ's wife and Ron Goldman. The
>> issue again is contamination of evidence.
>> In the case of the empty shells it does not affect their evidentiary
>> value that much because we know they were fired from Oswald's rifle no
>> matter where they landed on the floor.
>>
>
> Seems like I just heard someone say something like that... Oh, right,
> that was me.
>
> So contamination of this evidence is not an issue here. There is
> virtually always some contamination of evidence in any big case.
> Sometimes, as here with the hulls (if it existed), it is trivial .
>

The issue IS contamination of the evidence. In the case of the empty
cartridges it was trivial.

>

[dklou...@comcast.net]

The Sgt Hill cover up of his "automatic" transmission was, yes, finally uncovered, by Hill himself, years later, when he admitted to Dale Myers that he made the transmission. But another officer was originally involved: Sgt Henslee, the DPD transcriber, attributed the transmission to others; otherwise, Hill would have had to explain it to the WC....
dcw

[Sandy McCroskey]

Oh, brother. Not that one again.
So you think Oswald was framed for the murder of Tippit!

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about that, no more than I would
argue about whether planes hit the Twin Towers. Not enough hours in the
day.

Have fun!

/sandy

[pjsp...@aol.com]

On Friday, June 8, 2012 6:02:04 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>
> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
> hulls.
> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
> pick them
> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
> up said

> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney, & newsperson

> Tom Alyea.
>
> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
> when you
> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>
> --
> Donald Willis

While I have come to believe Fritz did handle the shells, before the crime
scene investigators arrived, I have come to conclude this was probably
innocent.

He knew the CSI team was ten minutes or more away. He was searching for a
killer with a rifle. He needed to know what kind of rifle he was looking
for.

I also believe Alyea was correct in his belief he filmed Fritz pick up a
shell (although he was wrong about the number of shells and where this
occurred). This footage, moreover, has not been lost, as previously
believed, but is right there in the surviving Alyea footage.

I spotted it in 2010, and Duncan MacRae posted it on youtube at my
request. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3tM7lY_z9t0

While some will argue--well, we can't really see what Fritz is doing--they
need to put on their thinking caps. He is kneeling right by where the
westernmost shell was photographed. He reaches down. He picks something
up, which you can briefly see between himself and the man to his right. He
is clearly showing something to this man, while crouched down by where a
shell was photographed. Do the math.

[Sandy McCroskey]

pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> On Friday, June 8, 2012 6:02:04 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>> hulls.
>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>> pick them
>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>> up said
>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney, & newsperson
>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>> when you
>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>> --
>> Donald Willis
>
> While I have come to believe Fritz did handle the shells, before the crime
> scene investigators arrived, I have come to conclude this was probably
> innocent.
>
> He knew the CSI team was ten minutes or more away. He was searching for a
> killer with a rifle. He needed to know what kind of rifle he was looking
> for.
>

That makes sense. And there's no reason to think he disturbed the hulls'
positions to any significant degree.

/sm

[John McAdams]

On 9 Jun 2012 10:03:28 -0400, dklou...@comcast.net wrote:

>On Jun 8, 12:21?pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

>> On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, bigdog wrote:
>>
>>
>> > The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>> > point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>> > left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>> > an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>> > reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>

>> The point is that Fritz picked them up and then threw them back down.
>
>The latter is simply your assumption. None of the three witnesses said
>what Fritz did with them after he picked them up, or was handed them:
>Mooney (v3p286),

But Mooney does not say that Fritz threw them back down. And certainly he
doesn't say he picked them up before Studebaker took his photo.


>Faulkner (v19p511),

It says the hulls were *given* to Fritz, not that he picked them up.

>or Alyea (Secrets from the Sixth
>Floor WIndow p40). Alyea, however, later said Fritz pocketed them & later
>handed them to Studebaker....
>

Now you finally have a "picked them up and threw them back down"
witness.

But Alyea does not have any film of that, in spite of the fact that
Fritz supposedly picked them up for Alyea to photograph.

Further, in the same Kritzberg book, Alyea loudly insists that the
remains of the chicken lunch were found on the *5th* floor, when we
know they were found on the 6th.

This is what I say in my book:

<Quote on>

As much as certain cultural biases might incline some people to think of
Captain Fritz as a hick who might cavalierly disturb a crime scene, the
Dallas cops Witnesses Who Are Just Too Good 65 were scrupulous about
securing the scene until Day could properly collect the evidence.
Detective L. D. Montgomery, for example, testified that when he arrived at
the depository, Fritz assigned him to ?protect the part of the scene where
the window was where the shooting took place.?46 Further, not only was
Fritz never alone with Alyea and the spent cartridges, Alyea?s own film
shows a whole crowd of officers around the sniper?s nest.47 It?s
implausible that Fritz would have done something that all of these
officers would have recognized as a major breach of procedure. Thus the
Alyea account lacks credibility, and the photo of the spent cartridges in
the sniper?s nest almost certainly shows the undisturbed hulls.

<Quote off>

.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

So what if he did not put them back in exactly the same locations? Their
exact location does not prove anything. But they were the same shells.
And they were found on the floor.

> /sm

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/13/2012 6:09 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> On Friday, June 8, 2012 6:02:04 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>
>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>> hulls.
>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>> pick them
>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>> up said

>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson

>> Tom Alyea.
>>
>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>> when you
>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>
>> --
>> Donald Willis
>
> While I have come to believe Fritz did handle the shells, before the crime
> scene investigators arrived, I have come to conclude this was probably
> innocent.
>
> He knew the CSI team was ten minutes or more away. He was searching for a
> killer with a rifle. He needed to know what kind of rifle he was looking
> for.
>
> I also believe Alyea was correct in his belief he filmed Fritz pick up a
> shell (although he was wrong about the number of shells and where this
> occurred). This footage, moreover, has not been lost, as previously
> believed, but is right there in the surviving Alyea footage.
>
> I spotted it in 2010, and Duncan MacRae posted it on youtube at my
> request. Here is the link:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3tM7lY_z9t0
>
> While some will argue--well, we can't really see what Fritz is doing--they
> need to put on their thinking caps. He is kneeling right by where the

Fritz is not picking up anything. He is looking out the window to see
what view the sniper would have.

> westernmost shell was photographed. He reaches down. He picks something
> up, which you can briefly see between himself and the man to his right. He
> is clearly showing something to this man, while crouched down by where a
> shell was photographed. Do the math.
>

You assume when you can't prove.

[dklou...@comcast.net]

Who "knows"? Another photographer, Det. Studebaker of DPD, said no chicken remains were found on the 6th floor. How did he know? He testified that he would have photographed them if they had been there....
dcsw

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/13/2012 10:42 PM, John McAdams wrote:
> On 9 Jun 2012 10:03:28 -0400, dklou...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> On Jun 8, 12:21?pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, bigdog wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>>
>>> The point is that Fritz picked them up and then threw them back down.
>>
>> The latter is simply your assumption. None of the three witnesses said
>> what Fritz did with them after he picked them up, or was handed them:
>> Mooney (v3p286),
>
> But Mooney does not say that Fritz threw them back down. And certainly he
> doesn't say he picked them up before Studebaker took his photo.
>
>
>> Faulkner (v19p511),
>
> It says the hulls were *given* to Fritz, not that he picked them up.
>
>> or Alyea (Secrets from the Sixth

>> Floor WIndow p40). Alyea, however, later said Fritz pocketed them& later

>> handed them to Studebaker....
>>
>
> Now you finally have a "picked them up and threw them back down"
> witness.
>
> But Alyea does not have any film of that, in spite of the fact that
> Fritz supposedly picked them up for Alyea to photograph.

Maybe because his film was destroyed, thrown away. I know that you need to
call witnesses liars and kooks whenever they say anything to indicate
conspiracy, but how does Alyea saying he SAW Fritz pick up the shells
indicate conspiracy? Does he claim that Fritz fired the shots?

Tom Alyea, "Facts and Photos"

From Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46



I was the first newsman into the building and the only newsman to
accompany the search team as they went from floor to floor searching for
the person who fired the shots. At this time, we did not know the
president had been hit. I rushed in with a group of plain clothesmen and a
few uniformed officers. . . .

I [followed] the search team that was on its way to the rear
elevator, to start the floor by floor search. We searched every floor, all
the way to the roof. The gunman could have still been in the building.
Finding nothing, they started back down. After approximately 18 minutes,
they were joined by Captain Fritz, who had first gone to Parkland
Hospital.

The barricade on the sixth floor ran parallel to the windows,
extending in an "L" shape that ended against the front wall between the
first and second twin windows. The height of the stack of boxes was a
minimum of 5 ft. I looked over the barricade and saw three shell casings
laying on the floor in front of the second window in the two window
casement. They were scattered in an area that could be covered by a bushel
basket. They were located about half way between the inside of the
barricade. I set my lens focus at the estimated distance from the camera
to the floor and held the camera over the top of the barricade and filmed
them before anybody went into the enclosure. I could not position my eye
to the camera's view finder to get the shot. After filming the casings
with my wide angle lens, from a height of 5 ft., I asked Captain Fritz,
who was standing at my side, if I could go behind the barricade and get a
close-up shot of the casings. He told me that it would be better if I got
my shots from outside the barricade. He then rounded the pile of boxes and
entered the enclosure. This was the first time anybody walked between the
barricade and the windows.

Fritz then walked to the casings, picked them up and held them in
his hand over the top of the boxes for me to get a close-up shot of the
evidence. I filmed about eight seconds of a close-up shot of the shell
casings in Captain Fritz's hand. I stopped filming, and thanked him. I do
not recall if he placed them in his pocket or returned them back to the
floor, because I was preoccupied with recording other views of the crime
scene. I have been asked many times if I thought it was peculiar that the
Captain of Homicide picked up evidence with his hands. Actually, that was
the first thought that came to me when he did it, but I rationalized that
he was the homicide expert and no prints could be taken from spent shell
casings. Therefore, any photograph of shell casings taken after this, is
staged and not correct. It is highly doubtful that the shell casings that
appear in Dallas police photos of the crime scene are the same casings
that were found originally. The originals by this time were probably in a
plastic bag at police headquarters. Why? Probably this was a missing link
in the report the police department had to send to the FBI and they had to
stage it and the barricade box placement to complete their report and
photo records.

The position of the barricade, while difficult to follow for one
who was not there, is important because of the difference in photographs
seen today.

There are four different box positions.

1) There was one box in the barricade stack that was considerably
higher than the others. This box is the one that can be seen in the photos
taken from outside the window by Tom Dillard, because it was high enough
to catch the sunlight and still be seen from the ground below. It is not
to be confused with the second box set at an angle in the window sill,
that was used as a brace for the assassin's rifle.

2) A portion of this box can also be seen in these same photos
taken by Tom Dillard. It shows up in the lower right hand corner of the
picture.

3) Two boxes were stacked on the floor, inside the window, to
give arm support to the assassin. The top box was one of the two boxes
from which the crime lab lifted palm prints.

4) The fourth box of importance was on the floor behind the
sniper location. Officers also lifted palm prints from this box. It is
suspected that the sniper sat on this box while he waited for the
motorcade to pass.

The positioning of boxes 2, 3, and 4 were recorded by the police
crime lab. They are the only boxes involved in the crime scene.

The actual positioning of the barricade was never photographed by
the police. It s actual positioning is only on my movie footage, which was
taken before the police started dismantling the arrangement.

We all looked over the barricade to see if the half open window
with three boxes piled to form a shooting rest for a gunman. One box was
actually on the window sill, tilted at an angle. There was a reason for
this that I cover in my JFK Facts newsletter. The shooting location
consists of two windows set together to form one single window. (The
police photo showing the shell casings laying next to the brick wall was
staged later by crime lab people who did not see the original positioning
because they were not called upon the scene until after the rifle was
found nearly an hour later.) . . .

Only recently I saw a picture of Lt. Day with a news still
cameraman on the 6th floor. Day was shown pointing to the location where
the rifle was found. This was nearly 3:30 or after. It was my
understanding that Day and Studebaker had taken the prints, rifle and
homemade sack back to police headquarters. I personally would like to know
what they were doing back at the scene unless it was to reconstruct shots
they had failed to take during the primary investigation. But this
evidence had been destroyed and they were forced to create their own
version. The photo I have seen of the barricade wasn't even close. I have
also seen recently a police photo of the assassin's lair taken from a high
angle which indicates that it was shot before the barricade box
arrangement was destroyed, but it did not show the barricade itself. This
has no bearing on the case other than the public has never seen the
original placement. . . .

Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the
assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at
or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the
floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the
barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the
box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have
given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony
differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to
these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put
it in a report and they must stick to it.

One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the
6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers
were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he
stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's
lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain
Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are
great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from
WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the
6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to
formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found
on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that
could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken
bones were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the
window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area. The most outstanding
puzzle as to why these officers are sticking to this story is the fact
they claim to have found the sniper's location, then left the building, as
they said to join the investigators at the Tippit shooting location. I
have never seen a report that indicates they attempted to use any
telephone in the building in an attempt to notify other investigators.
They just left the scene to check another assignment, and by chance ran
into Capt. Fritz coming in the front door. They claim to have placed a
detective at the location but they did not relay their finding to any
other officer before they left the building. I presume that the alleged
detective they allegedly left at the scene was instructed to stand there
until someone else stumbled upon the scene, or they found time to report
it after investigating the Tippit scene. Sorry, it doesn't wash.

I do however know that Officer Mooney was present when the rifle
was found because I took film of him at the scene. He is shown talking to
another detective, but this was nearly an hour after the sniper's location
was found at the window. I have no idea when he arrived. We ended up with
more men than when we started. As they joined us during the search the
latecomers would bring us the latest news of the president's condition.
When Captain Fritz arrived 18 minutes after we started, he brought news
that both Governor Connally and the president had been hit but by the time
he left, the seriousness of their wounds was unknown. Fritz left the
hospital almost immediately when he was notified that a search was
underway in the Texas School Book Depository for the sniper. We in the
search team had no phones, radios or TV sets. As I recall, we learned that
the president was dead about the time we found the rifle. I don't know who
brought us this word. Several officers arrived while we were waiting for
Lt. Day. One of them was Roger Craig, who is responsible for giving much
misinformation to the press. None of us were prepared to hear that the
president's wound was a fatal one. We thought perhaps it was a minor thing
or possibly a flesh wound. It was a stunning shock, and our attitude
[towards] the rifle had suddenly changed. We stared at the small portion
of the butt as it lay under the overhang boxes while we waited for Lt. Day
to arrive and recover the weapon that killed our president. . . .

We finished combing the 6th floor, looking for the assassin or
any other evidence. Finding nothing more at this time Captain Fritz
ordered all of us to the elevator and we started searching the 7th floor
and from there we went to the roof.

Nothing in the way of evidence was found so we retraced our
search back down, floor by floor. Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th
floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely
hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was
found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the
enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire
fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men
to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt.
Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning
of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it
up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times.
Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started
dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure
formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the
rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white
cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz
pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes
below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up
anything other than the live round. . . .

I filmed Captain Fritz talking with associates in this dismantled
area [the "sniper's nest"], along with Studebaker, who was dusting the Dr.
Pepper bottle which had been brought up to him from the 5th floor. This is
all recorded on my film. I never learned if prints were lifted from the
pop bottle. I'm not sure if anybody ever asked.

I took the film from my camera, placed it back into its metal
can, wrapped the tape around it, and tossed it to our News Editor, A. J.
L'Hoste, who was waiting outside with the other newsmen who were not
allowed in the building. A. J. raced it to the television station which
was about three blocks away. About fifteen minutes later the world saw the
murder weapon, where it was found and pictures of the crime lab people
dusting it for fingerprints, and the shell casings that once housed those
bullets. They also saw how the assassin prepared for his ambush and the
view he had of the killing zone.



Addendum #1

A correspondent asked Tom Alyea about the accuracy of the above
material and forwarded Alyea's response:

Thanks for sending me the material from Connie Kritzberg's
"Secrets from The Sixth Floor." I never read the book. Many years ago she
interviewed me about what I saw during the search. I gave her some
pictures to use in her story. This is the first time I have seen the
story. I regret to say that there are some inaccuracies, which is to be
expected in an interview. You must remember that she was not on the sixth
floor. She was at her desk in the city room at the Dallas Times Herald
newspaper. It is disjointed and out of sequence, which makes it difficult
to follow. This is often the case when the interviewer asks the questions
and was not at the scene. Connie is a friend of mine, and a good reporter,
but I did not see the final draft before it went to press. There is always
the possibility that I failed to make my answers clear, and she derived a
different meaning. Please remember that these short statements contained
little detail and circumstances behind the situation.

I shall make a few corrections that I feel are necessary to
maintain accuracy:

Corrections:

The average height of the barricade (Barricade #1) was four and a
half feet. I don't know how high this would be in the Metric scale.

My shot of the shell casings in Capt. Fritz's hand was between
three and four seconds.

(Important correction:) Take out the sentence that starts with,
"It is highly doubtful?"

My statement was that after Capt. Fritz held the casing over the
barricade for me to film, he turned to examine the shooting support boxes
on the windowsill. I couldn't see the captain put the casings in his coat
pocket because his coat pocket was below the top of the barricade. He did
not return them to the floor and he did not have them in his hand when he
was examining the shooting support boxes. Over thirty minutes later, after
the rifle was discovered and the crime lab arrived, Capt. Fritz reached
into his pocket and handed the casings to Det. Studebaker to include in
the photographs he would take of the sniper's nest crime scene. We stayed
at the rifle site to watch Lt. Day dust the rifle. You have seen my
footage of this. Studebaker never saw the original placement of the
casings so he tossed them on the floor and photographed them. Det.
Studebaker was alone at this site until after Lt. Day left the building
with the rifle. We in the search team went to the sniper's site.
Studebaker had already photographed the casings on the floor and was busy
dusting the pop bottle when we arrived. The casings were no longer on the
floor. I never saw them again. The barricade had been completely
dismantled and the boxes from the West side of the barricade had been
removed and placed in various locations around the site. We did not
realize at the time that Studebaker had not recorded on film the original
placement of the boxes in the barricade. He also had removed the shooting
support boxes on the window ledge and stacked them one on top of the other
on the floor inside. He took a picture of this reconstructed arrangement.
This is the view researchers have of the shooting support boxes that were
originally on the brick window ledge. The corner of the outside box was
positioned over the lower window channel that tilted the box at an angle.

(Important correction)?Take out the sentence that starts with, "I
have also seen recently?"

This high angle photograph was taken after the crime lab returned
to the sixth floor three days later 'Monday, November, twenty-five. Capt.
Fritz had seen the photographs and had directed the crime lab to correct
the shots of the window boxes and the casings on the floor. He had seen
the original placement and ordered the crime lab to correct it. Neither
Lt. Day nor Det. Studebaker had seen the original placement, so they
procured my film from the TV station to get it right. The high angle shot
(shots) were made to show the original placement. Their reconstruction was
close, but not exact. However, they did not bring the casings with them so
they did not make the correction of the original placement of the shell
casings.

(Important correction) Take out the sentence that starts with :"
I do however know that Officer Mooney?"

Mooney was a Sheriff's Deputy, not a police officer. He did not
arrive on the sixth floor until after the rifle was found and the search
was over.

(Important correction) Take out the sentence that starts with,
"He dispatched one of his men?"

Capt. Fritz did this after the shooting site was discovered, with
the instructions to have the crime lab men wait on the first floor when
they arrived. We were still looking for an armed gunman. We had only found
his shooting location. After the rifle was found, Capt. Fritz sent one of
his detectives down in the elevator to bring up the crime lab, because it
was obvious that the sniper had escaped and the threat of a firefight was
unlikely. The crime lab is never called to a scene that has not been
secured. I hope you researcher friends will realize this when the read the
police testimonies where they place Lt. Day at the shooting site crime
scene while we in the search team were still searching for an armed sniper
on the same floor. They had a noble reason for giving this false
testimony. They wanted to protect their boss, Capt. Fritz from possible
censure for picking up the casings before the crime lab arrived and
processed them. The easiest way was to place Lt. Day at the scene before
Capt. Fritz arrived. All this is detailed in my report.



Addendum #2

From: Dale Myers (dmy...@rust.net)
Subject: Re: Tom Alyea on the sixth floor evidence
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Date: 1999/07/04

As we all know, time alters recollections. Case in point:
compare Tom Alyea's more recent statements (posted by Dave Reitzes) with
his statement from December 19, 1963:

------------------------------[quote on]

"...I ran on upstairs with the Secret Service men. Then other
units came in - the Riot Squad. I thought I was going to film a gun
fight. They ran to the 4th floor and I went with them. Some of the other
units went to the top of the building. They were conducting a systematic
search. It boiled down to the sixth floor. After awhile it was obvious
that the assassin was not in the building. They looked for the gun. I
filmed 400 ft. of film of the Secret Service men looking for the
assassin, climbing over boxes, over the rafters, and the actual finding
of the gun. At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed
quite a time there. There was a stack with a stack of chicken bones on
it. There was a Dr. Pepper bottle which they dusted for fingerprints.
The fingerprints were not Oswald's. You know how he piled the boxes up?
The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It
was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not
want me closeto the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to
the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I
asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set
the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the
gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this
the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this -
pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for
fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the
building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. I never saw my film on
the air because I had to get the film to someone outside. This was the
first film from there. We had Mal Couch's film of the crowd but not of
the President being hit. [How did you get the film out?] There's a story
for you. I actually handed it out through the door but it had been
publicized over the air and established everywhere that I had thrown it
out of the building through a window. I hesitate to tell you the real
story. I started to throw it out of the building but being so close and
knowing that we had the other film, I wanted our station to be the first
to show a film of the assassination. A A.J. L'Hoste was under the
window. I yelled out to him. In actuality I tossed the film out the
front door to Ron Reiland who had gotten back from covering the
apprehension of Oswald at the Texas Theater. This was another ABC
exclusive. There were 2 policemen at the Depository door. They were not
sure that I should get things outside. Ron was outside and I was inside.
One of the policemen there called a Lieutenant and while they were
calling him, I threw the film out....."

------------------------------[quote off]

"Fritz then walked to the casings, picked them up and held them in his
hand over the top of the boxes for me to get a close-up shot of the
evidence. I filmed about eight seconds of a close-up shot of the shell
casings in Captain Fritz's hand. I stopped filming, and thanked him. I do
not recall if he placed them in his pocket or returned them back to the
floor, because I was preoccupied with recording other views of the crime
scene."

This is why you like destruction of evidence so that you can confidently
say that there is no evidence to prove our crazy ideas.
Then when the evidence is found you run away.

>
> Further, in the same Kritzberg book, Alyea loudly insists that the
> remains of the chicken lunch were found on the *5th* floor, when we
> know they were found on the 6th.
>

How do you know that chicken bones or a bag was not found on the sixth
floor in addition to the fifth floor?

> This is what I say in my book:
>
> <Quote on>
>
> As much as certain cultural biases might incline some people to think of
> Captain Fritz as a hick who might cavalierly disturb a crime scene, the
> Dallas cops Witnesses Who Are Just Too Good 65 were scrupulous about
> securing the scene until Day could properly collect the evidence.
> Detective L. D. Montgomery, for example, testified that when he arrived at
> the depository, Fritz assigned him to ?protect the part of the scene where
> the window was where the shooting took place.?46 Further, not only was
> Fritz never alone with Alyea and the spent cartridges, Alyea?s own film
> shows a whole crowd of officers around the sniper?s nest.47 It?s
> implausible that Fritz would have done something that all of these
> officers would have recognized as a major breach of procedure. Thus the

Fritz did it BEFORE the other officers arrived.

> Alyea account lacks credibility, and the photo of the spent cartridges in
> the sniper?s nest almost certainly shows the undisturbed hulls.
>

Why would Alyea lie?

[pjsp...@aol.com]

At the 25-30 second mark Fritz is looking down at the ground in front of
the second window over, a CLOSED window. He is precisely where the
westernmost shell was located. He reaches down. He picks something up. He
shows it to the man at his right.

No one who'd actually looked at the video could possibly think he's
looking out the window to establish the sniper's view. If he was trying to
do that he would 1) crouch in front of the window that was opened, and 2)
look out the window. As he does neither, your alternate theory is
rejected.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/14/2012 3:59 PM, dklou...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:42:02 PM UTC-7, John McAdams wrote:
>> On 9 Jun 2012 10:03:28 -0400, dklou...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 12:21?pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, bigdog wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>>>
>>>> The point is that Fritz picked them up and then threw them back down.
>>>
>>> The latter is simply your assumption. None of the three witnesses said
>>> what Fritz did with them after he picked them up, or was handed them:
>>> Mooney (v3p286),
>>
>> But Mooney does not say that Fritz threw them back down. And certainly he
>> doesn't say he picked them up before Studebaker took his photo.
>>
>>
>>> Faulkner (v19p511),
>>
>> It says the hulls were *given* to Fritz, not that he picked them up.
>>
>>> or Alyea (Secrets from the Sixth

>>> Floor WIndow p40). Alyea, however, later said Fritz pocketed them& later

>>> handed them to Studebaker....
>>>
>>
>> Now you finally have a "picked them up and threw them back down"
>> witness.
>>
>> But Alyea does not have any film of that, in spite of the fact that
>> Fritz supposedly picked them up for Alyea to photograph.
>>
>> Further, in the same Kritzberg book, Alyea loudly insists that the
>> remains of the chicken lunch were found on the *5th* floor, when we
>> know they were found on the 6th.
>
> Who "knows"? Another photographer, Det. Studebaker of DPD, said no chicken remains were found on the 6th floor. How did he know? He testified that he would have photographed them if they had been there....
> dcsw

Silly. Did he photograph the bag in place?