dkloung
...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Jun 10, 8:47 pm, Sandy McCroskey <gwmccros
...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On 6/10/12 8:33 AM, dkloung
...@comcast.net wrote:
>>> On Jun 9, 8:06 pm, Sandy McCroskey<gwmccros...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/9/12 8:39 PM, John Blubaugh wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 9, 12:20 am, Sandy McCroskey<gwmccros...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/8/12 5:33 PM, John Blubaugh wrote:
>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 3:20 pm, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 7:55 am, bigdog<jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 9:02 am, dkloung...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> #9: Fritz Picks up the Hulls
>>>>>>>>>> Homicide Captain Fritz testified that he told his men not to touch the
>>>>>>>>>> hulls.
>>>>>>>>>> But note that he did not explicitly state that *he himself* did not
>>>>>>>>>> pick them
>>>>>>>>>> up. Three others, however, explicitly stated that he did indeed pick
>>>>>>>>>> up said
>>>>>>>>>> hulls--Deputy Sheriff Faulkner, Deputy Sheriff Mooney,& newsperson
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Alyea.
>>>>>>>>>> Hard to trust the authorities with "hard" evidence behind the scenes,
>>>>>>>>>> when you
>>>>>>>>>> can't even trust them with evidence out in the open!
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Donald Willis
>>>>>>>>> The hulls were photographed in place before anyone touched them. At some
>>>>>>>>> point, somebody had to pick them up. Would you think they would just be
>>>>>>>>> left on the floor? Do you think the captain of the homicide department was
>>>>>>>>> an inappropriate person to pick them up? Do you really think this is a
>>>>>>>>> reason to suspect a conspiracy? Why?
>>>>>>>> Because your summary, above, is inaccurate. 1) Mooney& Alyea specified
>>>>>>>> that Fritz picked them up before anyone from the lab arrived: Mooney:
>>>>>>>> "[Captain Fritz] was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I
>>>>>>>> know, because I stood there& watched him go over& pick them up." 2)
>>>>>>>> Fritz led readers of his affidavit& testimony to believe that he did not
>>>>>>>> even touch the hulls in the depository, before they came to his office.
>>>>>>>> Yes, after photographing, Fritz certainly could have picked them up, but
>>>>>>>> he said that others did (Sims, I believe). Mooney& co. said that *Fritz*
>>>>>>>> first picked them up.
>>>>>>>> dcw
>>>>>>> You have to understand that Big Dog and a few others simply do not
>>>>>>> understand the concept of protecting the evidence. They made up their
>>>>>>> minds and they don't care about the evidence. There are lots of examples
>>>>>>> of this behavior from them. They didn't care about keeping the evidence
>>>>>>> from becoming contaminated before the defenses expert witnesses could
>>>>>>> examine it.
>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>> So you think the shells should *still* be sitting on the floor of what
>>>>>> is now the Sixth Floor Museum, or to your mind the evidence has been
>>>>>> tampered with.
>>>>>> This reminds me of when you said the FBI should have left fibers
>>>>>> unanalyzed so that the defense could do its own tests (although the sole
>>>>>> reason the FBI couldn't make a 100% positive match was that there
>>>>>> weren't enough fibers to analyze...).
>>>>>> Of course, after the shells were photographed, there was no reason not
>>>>>> to move them.
>>>>>> /sandy
>>>>> That is the whole idea. The shells were moved and touched before they
>>>>> were photographed......
>>>>> JB
>>>> There's no proof of that.
>>> Certainly, there is. Lt Day& homicide Det. Sims handled the
>>> photographing& collecting of shells. It was Sims who bagged them
>>> immediately after Day photographed them,& Sims testified that he took
>>> them to Homicide. In other words, Fritz could not have handled the
>>> shells after photographing. The only time that he could have picked
>>> them up was *before* photographing, and three witnesses saw him....
>>> dcw
>> You call that "proof"?
>> Well, that explains a lot.
>> What you have, instead of anything like "proof" is Deputy Luke Mooney's
>> recollection (in 1964) that Fritz moved the shells, and your assumption
>> that this could not have happened (assuming, of course, that it happened
>> at all) after they were photographed, because you assume that Sims's
>> having bagged them "immediately" after Day photographed them left not even
>> a minute for Fritz to investigate the caliber of one of them, if he had
>> then been so inclined (I wonder how you think you know this).
> One way I think I know is by reading the Sims/Boyd report (Sims Exh
> A):
> "Someone said the gun had been found. Capt. Fritz walked between a
> stack of books to where the gun was laying.... Sims went back to where
> Lt Day was & told him the gun had been found. Day or Studebaker took
> another picture of the hulls. Sims picked up the empty hulls, & Day
> held an envelope open while Sims dropped them in the envelope."
"Day or Studebaker [real precise here] took *another* picture of the
hulls."
Not surprising if there was an omission in the report. Of course it notes
the circumstances of the finding of the gun. It perhaps merely leaves out
Fritz's sort of casually inspecting the caliber of one of the hulls (after
the first photograph(s), but before the last one).
> According to the report, then, only *Sims* of the Homicide crew went
> back to the hull area as Day finished taking the photos.
> dcw
>> What you've got there is only somebody's, possibly faulty, memory and a
>> whole lot of conjecture passed off as certainty.
>> From Bugliosi's End Notes, pg. 417:
>> <quote on>
>> Captain Fritz, however, denied moving the shells, testifying before the
>> Warren Commission that he ordered the officers present ?not to move the
>> cartridges [actually, cartridge cases], not to touch anything until we
>> could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying
>> there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done? (4 H
>> 205). Though I don?t automatically discount Mooney?s version of events, I
>> do find it pretty hard to believe that Captain Fritz, a thirty-year
>> veteran and highly regarded leader of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau,
>> would be foolish enough to move evidence at a crime scene, in full view of
>> everyone, before photographs had been taken (even a rookie cop, having
>> just gone through training at the police academy, would know he wasn?t
>> supposed to do this),? then instruct the men around him not to do what he
>> had just done. Further, in a later interview for a book, Mooney changed
>> his story and said Fritz only picked up ?one? of the shell casings ?to see
>> what caliber it was? (Sneed, No More Silence, p.226). I doubt Fritz would
>> have even done that before photographs were taken of the crime scene, but
>> even if he did that we can assume he put the shell back in the same place
>> he had picked it up from.
>> </quote off>
>> (Of course, Bugliosi means to say he *thinks* we can assume Fritz would've
>> "put the shell back in the same place..." not, as his sentence actually
>> came out, that he "doubt[s]...we can assume" that. Proust he's not.)
> Don't get me started on Proust. Pass the madeleines....
Proust is fantastic, but I think you have to read him in the original.
>> I don't have any proof Fritz didn't touch any of the shells. But you have
>> no proof that he did.
> The problem is that Bugliosi does not seem to know that two other
> witnesses reported seeing Fritz handle the hulls--reporter Tom Alyea
> and another deputy sheriff, Jack Faulkner. No, not quite proof, but
> getting close....
>> /sandy
Yes, well, you've said, "To me, Mooney's testimony carries the most
evidentiary weight," but I should have phrased that differently. I don't
have any proof Fritz touched the shells before they were photographed (the
first time).
Even if you could prove that Fritz had touched the hulls before they were
photographed, it would take more than that to make me the least suspicious
of the Dallas Police Department as co-conspirators in the assassination of
JFK. The fact of the existence of the shots from the sixth floor of the
TSDB does not hinge on the finding of the hulls.
/sandy
