Was Oswald a bad shot?
davidma...@yahoo.com
a possible 50 in rapid fire at 200 yards from a sitting position, with out
a scope. This was as a raw recruit when he was still enthusiastic. Later
he didn't try and didn't do as well.
claviger
David,
Oswald's overall quals in the Marine Corp were better than average. We
may assume he was using the standard semi automatic M-1 rifle for
these quals. An excellent rifle easy to shoot. We have no idea how
much practice LHO put in on the M-C bolt action rifle. Marina
testified LHO would sit on the couch and work the bolt action back and
forth. He probably did this to help smooth out the action and get the
feel of the weapon. He could also dry fire the rifle at home with an
empty shell in the chamber. He may have taken the rifle to a shooting
range a few times.
The Marine Corp sniper motto is "One shot. One kill." Training
emphasis is on making the first shot. LHO was a Marine, not a Marine
sniper. If LHO did all the shooting it took 3 shots to kill the
target. There is a high probability LHO was extremely nervous on the
first shot and yanked the trigger, pulling the shot to the right,
missing the Limousine altogether. Shrapnel from the disintegrating
bullet along with cement particles would have sprayed the open
Limousine possibly causing superficial wounds to the President. This
is thought to be the reason Agent Kellerman heard the President
exclaim "My God! I'm hit!"
The second shot to the upper back was potentially a lethal wound. The
third shot to the head was a kill shot. All 3 shots took place at less
than 100 yards, which is close range for a rifle. Many hunters will
use open sights for targets that close. There has been much discussion
about the misalignment of the scope. No one knows if it was misaligned
at the time LHO fired it, or from being quickly dropped by LHO after
the shooting, or by handling as evidence. The misalignment would be
high to the right. There is one theory LHO accidently shot the
President while firing at Governor Connally.
The scope misalignment would have helped the shooter with a slow
moving target curving to the right. The M-C has a maximum 10" arc in
trajectory downrange. This may account for the first wound in the
upper back and second wound at the top of the head. The M-C rifle was
known for having a loose bolt action which allowed for rapid
recycling. Some researchers now think the shooting sequence took 8-11
seconds.
There is an alternative theory LHO only fired 2 shots and the third
shot was accidental. A bodyguard in the follow-up car had a rifle and
was seen falling over. He may have accidently fired the weapon when he
lost his balance. If this accidental shot struck the President in the
head this would be the reason LHO thought he was a patsy. It would
also explain why the Kennedy family controlled missing evidence, and
agreed to withholding certain evidence for 75 years.
Anthony Marsh
Apples and oranges. That was with an M-1 with iron sights that could be
zeroed in. Oswald's rifle could not. And that is selection bias, only
pointing out the best result. Not pointing out the worst scores and the
Maggie's Drawers.
Maggsy
How do you account for the chip from the roadside curb that hit James
Tague. Which shot was this from?
Many hunters will
> use open sights for targets that close. There has been much discussion
> about the misalignment of the scope. No one knows if it was misaligned
> at the time LHO fired it, or from being quickly dropped by LHO after
> the shooting, or by handling as evidence. The misalignment would be
> high to the right. There is one theory LHO accidently shot the
> President while firing at Governor Connally.
Think this could be true. No way of proving either way though.
>
> The scope misalignment would have helped the shooter with a slow
> moving target curving to the right. The M-C has a maximum 10" arc in
> trajectory downrange. This may account for the first wound in the
> upper back and second wound at the top of the head. The M-C rifle was
> known for having a loose bolt action which allowed for rapid
> recycling. Some researchers now think the shooting sequence took 8-11
> seconds.
>
> There is an alternative theory LHO only fired 2 shots and the third
> shot was accidental. A bodyguard in the follow-up car had a rifle and
> was seen falling over. He may have accidently fired the weapon when he
> lost his balance.
Think this has been conclusively proved to be false from viewing video
evidence taken at the time of the shooting.Plus the bodyguard sewed
the ass of those who wrote a book accusing him of doing it.
Maggsy
I did point out that later he didn't do as well. If we say one good
result negates the other bad result then Oswald was an average shot.
Good enough to make the shots. May be he just got lucky that day. May
be he was inform that day.Some times he is going to shoot better than
other times. Or may be he wasn't even trying to hit Kennedy and they
really were bad shots.
claviger
> How do you account for the chip from the roadside curb that hit James
> Tague. Which shot was this from?
A possible tiny fragment of lead or piece of pavement from the first
shot that ricocheted and disintegrated, or the last shot that
disintegrated inside the skull. Tague had no idea which shot caused it
and guessed it was the second shot. That would be the most unlikely
shot to cause the cut on his cheek.
> > Many hunters will use open sights for targets that close. There has been
> > much discussion about the misalignment of the scope. No one knows if it
> > was misaligned at the time LHO fired it, or from being quickly dropped by
> > LHO after the shooting, or by handling as evidence. The misalignment
> > would be high to the right. There is one theory LHO accidently shot the
> > President while firing at Governor Connally.
> Think this could be true. No way of proving either way though.
Correct. A slow lead combined with a slow trigger pull could cause
this to happen since the two men were lined up so close in tandem as
viewed from the SN on the 6th floor. The basis for the theory is LHO
had a possible grudge against Connally, but not Kennedy. However, if
LHO was a dedicated Marxist and fan of the Cuban Revolution he may
have shot the President to impress Castro and show solidarity to
leftist revolutionaries around the world. LHO is an enigma.
> > There is an alternative theory LHO only fired 2 shots and the third
> > shot was accidental. A bodyguard in the follow-up car had a rifle and
> > was seen falling over. He may have accidently fired the weapon when he
> > lost his balance.
> Think this has been conclusively proved to be false from viewing video
> evidence taken at the time of the shooting.Plus the bodyguard sewed
> the ass of those who wrote a book accusing him of doing it.
There is no film to prove it either way. There are eyewitnesses with
some very interesting testimony. The body guard in question failed to
file his lawsuit on time, which is a mystery in itself. The case was
dismissed by the court. However, the publisher did go ahead and settle
with the bodyguard. The reasons why are unclear. While curious, this
move was not an admission of guilt.
To understand all the reasons why Howard Donahue came to the
conclusion he did, you need to read the book about his lengthy
investigation of this shooting incident. The title is "Mortal Error:
The Shot That Killed JFK" by Bonar Menninger. The book is well thought
of in some quarters. An in-depth website on the Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle included it on their short list of recommended books to read
about the ballistics of the assassination.
Coondog
> On 3/1/2009 9:38 PM, davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > According to Time life magazine Oswald scored making and 49 points out of
> > a possible 50 in rapid fire at 200 yards from a sitting position, with out
> > a scope. This was as a raw recruit when he was still enthusiastic. Later
> > he didn't try and didn't do as well.
>
> Apples and oranges. That was with an M-1 with iron sights that could be
> zeroed in. Oswald's rifle could not.
Why not? If not then how did he manage to hit his target, the
president?
Bill Clarke
bigdog
>
> How do you account for the chip from the roadside curb that hit James
> Tague. Which shot was this from?
>
It has never been established what caused the wound to Tague's cheek,
whether it was a bullet fragment, a chip from the pavement, or even a bone
fragment from JFK's exploding skull. It is not even known which shot
caused it. I do not dismiss the possibility it had nothing to do with the
assassination. It could have been a pebble thrown from the tire of a
passing vehicle. I once had a windshield broken by such a pebble so it is
not a stretch to think such a stray pebble could have cut Tague's cheek.
In lieu of any definitive proof, we are left to take educated guesses as
to what caused Tague's wound. It is not necessary to establish that with
any certainty in order to answer the important issues of the
assassination.
Maggsy
> David,
>
> > How do you account for the chip from the roadside curb that hit James
> > Tague. Which shot was this from?
>
> A possible tiny fragment of lead or piece of pavement from the first
> shot that ricocheted and disintegrated, or the last shot that
> disintegrated inside the skull. Tague had no idea which shot caused it
> and guessed it was the second shot. That would be the most unlikely
> shot to cause the cut on his cheek.
>
> > > Many hunters will use open sights for targets that close. There has been
> > > much discussion about the misalignment of the scope. No one knows if it
> > > was misaligned at the time LHO fired it, or from being quickly dropped by
> > > LHO after the shooting, or by handling as evidence. The misalignment
> > > would be high to the right. There is one theory LHO accidently shot the
> > > President while firing at Governor Connally.
> > Think this could be true. No way of proving either way though.
>
> Correct. A slow lead combined with a slow trigger pull could cause
> this to happen since the two men were lined up so close in tandem as
> viewed from the SN on the 6th floor. The basis for the theory is LHO
> had a possible grudge against Connally, but not Kennedy. However, if
> LHO was a dedicated Marxist and fan of the Cuban Revolution he may
> have shot the President to impress Castro and show solidarity to
> leftist revolutionaries around the world.
I agree. He could have been going for either or both. No way of
knowing for sure what was going through his head.
LHO is an enigma.
>
> > > There is an alternative theory LHO only fired 2 shots and the third
> > > shot was accidental. A bodyguard in the follow-up car had a rifle and
> > > was seen falling over. He may have accidently fired the weapon when he
> > > lost his balance.
> > Think this has been conclusively proved to be false from viewing video
> > evidence taken at the time of the shooting.Plus the bodyguard sewed
> > the ass of those who wrote a book accusing him of doing it.
>
> There is no film to prove it either way.
There is the Bronson video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7IIMuBrkc
Which some say proves that the bodyguard always remains sitting. Seems as
clear as mud to me watching the video. Has any one done any enhancement on
this video to see if any thing can be seen in the 6th floor of the
depository?
There are eyewitnesses with
> some very interesting testimony. The body guard in question failed to
> file his lawsuit on time, which is a mystery in itself. The case was
> dismissed by the court. However, the publisher did go ahead and settle
> with the bodyguard. The reasons why are unclear. While curious, this
> move was not an admission of guilt.
Seems everything is curious in this most baffling of cases.
> To understand all the reasons why Howard Donahue came to the
> conclusion he did, you need to read the book about his lengthy
> investigation of this shooting incident. The title is "Mortal Error:
> The Shot That Killed JFK" by Bonar Menninger. The book is well thought
> of in some quarters. An in-depth website on the Mannlicher-Carcano
> rifle included it on their short list of recommended books to read
> about the ballistics of the assassination.
Yes I have recently read it. Thought it was interesting.
claviger
> > There is no film to prove it either way.
>
> There is the Bronson videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7IIMuBrkc
>
> Which some say proves that the bodyguard always remains sitting.
> Seems as clear as mud to me watching the video. Has any one done
> any enhancement on this video to see if any thing can be seen in the
> 6th floor of the depository?
Clear as mud is a good description. I can't see where it proves
anything. A witness standing on top of the Triple Underpass saw the SS
agent stand up and go down (lose his balance?) between the two wounds.
Two more witnesses heard a shot from inside or next to the Limousine.
Here is the testimony of the SS agent in question:
____________________________________________________
After the President and his party entered and were seated in IOOX I
entered 679X as I had been instructed to do by Agent Lawson. I was
seated in the rear left side seat. The shift leader, Emory Roberts,
had instructed me to take control of the AR-I5 rifle whenever I was
riding in 679X as an extra man. I did this and had the ammunition clip
inserted in the rifle and placed the rifle within easy reach of me.
The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade
route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at
the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass
followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report
which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right
and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked
to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my
attention except people shouting and cheering. A disturbance in 679X
caused me to look forward toward the President's car. Perhaps 2 or 3
seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at
the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was
straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and
looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports
which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely
different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid
succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between
them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right
upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if
it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward
and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot
seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which
made him fall forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five
seconds elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.
At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and
picked up the AR 15 rifle, cocked and loaded it, and turned to the
rear. At this point the cars were passing under the over-pass and as a
result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR 15 rifle
ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital.
____________________________________________________
Notice what this story does reveal:
This SS agent was assigned the responsibility of handling the AR-15.
The ammo clip was inserted and ready to go.
The rifle was in easy reach.
After the first sound he stood up and tried to identify it.
He looked to the rear for 2 or 3 seconds.
He was looking at JFK when he heard two reports in rapid succession.
They sounded different from the first shot.
JFK was wounded twice while the SS agent was facing the Limousine.
He then reached for the rifle and turned to the rear one more time.
He never mentions losing his balance and falling over.
In the Altgens photo JFK has been wounded and Jackie is supporting his
raised elbow. We can see the SS agent turned looking toward the TSBD.
This is not the same sequence described in his testimony. The question
is did he grab the rifle after the second shot and was he holding it
as he watched the head shot strike the President? Remember, Donahue
believed this SS agent did not realize he fired the rifle. Even more
curious SSA Hill also thought the head shot sounded different from the
other shot.
____________________________________________________
Witness S M Holland:
"After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy
jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the
second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man
raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in
the seat. And they immediately sped off."
____________________________________________________
So this well placed witness on top an elevated vantage point
overlooking the parade coming right at him saw a Secret Service man
"raise up in the seat with a machine gun" and then drop back down
after the first shot. But in describing the "first shot" this witness
means the first shot that wounded the President. That is how SSA Hill
remembers it too. So we have a witness with a clear view who saw the
SS agent with rifle in hand rise and fall between the first wound and
second wound. He even says "raise up in the seat."
We know the SS agent was sitting on top of the back cushion when the
motorcade turned into Dealey Plaza. If he reacted by "raising up" then
his feet would already be on the seat cushion. Standing on the seat
cushion would place him high enough for an accidental shot to clear
the front windshield, by 12" according to Donahue's estimate. This
would create a flatter trajectory for the head shot estimated at 7º.
This flat trajectory would be more consistent to the entrance wound
being 6 x 15 mm, a ratio that indicates the bullet creased the scalp
before puncturing the skull, referred to by pathologists as
trenching.
I have to say I don't see that type of wound ratio (1 x 2.5) in the
autopsy photo. It looks more like (1 x 1.5) to me. However, if the
official measurement ratio is correct it might take the SN out of
contention as the source for the head wound.
> Seems everything is curious in this most baffling of cases.
How true.
> > To understand all the reasons why Howard Donahue came to the
> > conclusion he did, you need to read the book about his lengthy
> > investigation of this shooting incident. The title is "Mortal Error:
> > The Shot That Killed JFK" by Bonar Menninger. The book is well thought
> > of in some quarters. An in-depth website on the Mannlicher-Carcano
> > rifle included it on their short list of recommended books to read
> > about the ballistics of the assassination.
>
> Yes I have recently read it. Thought it was interesting.
I thought it was fascinating for several reasons. No one ever talks
about the anecdotal stories in this book. The one about the SS agent
drinking to much at a party and blurting out the President was shot by
an SS agent is pretty shocking. Unfortunately it cannot be considered
proof, and when the guy sobered up he would surely deny it. Also the
story about LBJ as President being nervous about SS agents following
him too closely at his ranch when driving across uneven ground.
Maggsy
We don't know that the president was his target. So it's irrelevant.
You first have to prove he was trying to hit JFK.He may have just been
trying to hit Connally. No way of knowing.
tomnln
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:70807256-2314-4807...@k29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> Maggsy,
>
>>> There is no film to prove it either way.
>> There is the Bronson videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7IIMuBrkc
>>
>> Which some say proves that the bodyguard always remains sitting.
>> Seems as clear as mud to me watching the video. Has any one done
>> any enhancement on this video to see if any thing can be seen in the
>> 6th floor of the depository?
> Clear as mud is a good description. I can't see where it proves
> anything. A witness standing on top of the Triple Underpass saw the SS
> agent stand up and go down (lose his balance?) between the two wounds.
> Two more witnesses heard a shot from inside or next to the Limousine.
>
Do not rely on witnesses. Your witness is probably the one who thought
the SS was in the Presidential limousine.
> Here is the testimony of the SS agent in question:
> ____________________________________________________
>
> After the President and his party entered and were seated in IOOX I
> entered 679X as I had been instructed to do by Agent Lawson. I was
> seated in the rear left side seat. The shift leader, Emory Roberts,
> had instructed me to take control of the AR-I5 rifle whenever I was
> riding in 679X as an extra man. I did this and had the ammunition clip
> inserted in the rifle and placed the rifle within easy reach of me.
>
Doesn't say if it was cocked and loaded and the safety off.
The ammo clip inserted does not mean the weapon is ready to fire.
> The rifle was in easy reach.
>
Yeah, so what?
> After the first sound he stood up and tried to identify it.
>
> He looked to the rear for 2 or 3 seconds.
>
Other SS agents looked back also. So what?
> He was looking at JFK when he heard two reports in rapid succession.
>
> They sounded different from the first shot.
>
> JFK was wounded twice while the SS agent was facing the Limousine.
>
> He then reached for the rifle and turned to the rear one more time.
>
> He never mentions losing his balance and falling over.
>
So what? Lots of people do things and never mention it.
>
>
> In the Altgens photo JFK has been wounded and Jackie is supporting his
> raised elbow. We can see the SS agent turned looking toward the TSBD.
> This is not the same sequence described in his testimony. The question
> is did he grab the rifle after the second shot and was he holding it
> as he watched the head shot strike the President? Remember, Donahue
> believed this SS agent did not realize he fired the rifle. Even more
> curious SSA Hill also thought the head shot sounded different from the
> other shot.
> ____________________________________________________
> Witness S M Holland:
> "After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy
> jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the
> second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man
> raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in
> the seat. And they immediately sped off."
> ____________________________________________________
>
> So this well placed witness on top an elevated vantage point
> overlooking the parade coming right at him saw a Secret Service man
> "raise up in the seat with a machine gun" and then drop back down
> after the first shot. But in describing the "first shot" this witness
> means the first shot that wounded the President. That is how SSA Hill
> remembers it too. So we have a witness with a clear view who saw the
> SS agent with rifle in hand rise and fall between the first wound and
> second wound. He even says "raise up in the seat."
>
Yeah, except that Holland thought it was the SS man in the Presidential
limousine.
> We know the SS agent was sitting on top of the back cushion when the
> motorcade turned into Dealey Plaza. If he reacted by "raising up" then
> his feet would already be on the seat cushion. Standing on the seat
> cushion would place him high enough for an accidental shot to clear
> the front windshield, by 12" according to Donahue's estimate. This
No, it wouldn't.
Anthony Marsh
He didn't. Whoever was firing that rifle missed two out of three shots.
I bet even you could hit the target once.
> Bill Clarke
>
Coondog
>
Yes but my question is why was the M/C incapable of being “zeroed”?
Without sighting in the rifle LHO would have been lucky to hit the car
much less a smaller target inside the car.
Bill Clarke
claviger
> Without naming the Volume & page number, your quotes are worthless.
>
GEORGE W., JR. HICKEY
Warren Report, 64; WC Vol 18, p. 762; CE 1024; CD 1095 Secret Service
agent riding in left rear seat of President's follow-up car. Witnessed
assassination
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-hicke.htm
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhickey.htm
Coondog
Thanks for the vote of confidence and you are correct; I could hit the
target at least once I believe. When I was LHO age at the time I
could do much better but today with failing eyes and shot nerves you
know. It is my opinion that most B grade deer hunters could have made
the shot.
How about you? Don’t cheat now!
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Moi? Three hits out of three shots.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 4, 2:38 pm, Maggsy<davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 4, 5:04 am, Coondog<billcla...@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 8:06 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/1/2009 9:38 PM, davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> According to Time life magazine Oswald scored making and 49 points out of
>>>>> a possible 50 in rapid fire at 200 yards from a sitting position, with out
>>>>> a scope. This was as a raw recruit when he was still enthusiastic. Later
>>>>> he didn't try and didn't do as well.
>>>> Apples and oranges. That was with an M-1 with iron sights that could be
>>>> zeroed in. Oswald's rifle could not.
>>> Why not? If not then how did he manage to hit his target, the
>>> president?
>>> Bill Clarke
>> We don't know that the president was his target. So it's irrelevant.
>> You first have to prove he was trying to hit JFK.He may have just been
>> trying to hit Connally. No way of knowing.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
> Yes but my question is why was the M/C incapable of being “zeroed”?
Oh, I missed that. The iron sights were fixed and preset at 200 meters.