Anthony Marsh says I can't do this ;-)

[John Reagor King]

Our beloved Anthony Marsh, viewed with great affection by many for his
vast and erudite knowledge of the assassination, has recently stated
several times that certain recent claims of mine are claims that I
cannot back up with actual statistics. Those claims of mine are as
follows:

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the Dal-Tex building either specifically
said that ALL of the shots sounded as if they came from there, or else
named no other direction in their entire statements, no matter how many
or how few shots they recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the general area of the intersection of Elm
and Houston either specifically said that ALL of the shots sounded as if
they came from there, or else named no other direction in their entire
statements, no matter how many or how few shots they recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the TSBD either specifically said that ALL
of the shots sounded as if they came from there, or else named no other
direction in their entire statements, no matter how many or how few
shots they recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the concrete pergola between the TSBD and
the fence on the knoll either specifically said that ALL of the shots
sounded as if they came from there, or else named no other direction in
their entire statements, no matter how many or how few shots they
recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the fence on the knoll either specifically
said that ALL of the shots sounded as if they came from there, or else
named no other direction in their entire statements, no matter how many
or how few shots they recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the railroad tracks either specifically
said that ALL of the shots sounded as if they came from there, or else
named no other direction in their entire statements, no matter how many
or how few shots they recalled hearing.

More than 90% of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses who said that shots
sounded as if they came from the Triple Underpass either specifically
said that ALL of the shots sounded as if they came from there, or else
named no other direction in their entire statements, no matter how many
or how few shots they recalled hearing.

In fact, no matter what direction was named, or how that direction was
described or worded, when one looks at all the witnesses who named that
same direction, more than 90% of them either specifically said that ALL
of the shots sounded as if they came from that direction, or else named
no other direction in their entire statements, no matter how many or how
few shots they recalled.

In addition, less than 10% of these witnesses specifically said that any
individual shot sounded louder and or closer than any of the other
shots, no matter where they were standing, and no matter how many or how
few shots they recalled hearing.

Now, yes, yes, yes, you will find *some* witnesses who gave *different*
opinions in *different* statements made at *different* times. For
example, you might have a witness who in her/his earliest statement said
all the shots sounded as if they came from the Triple Underpass, and
then in a later statement said all the shots sounded as if they came
from the railroad tracks *north* of the Triple Underpass. But in each
individual statement the witness is still naming a single direction, not
multiple directions, for ALL of the gunfire. The witness has simply
changed the description of WHICH single direction ALL of the gunfire
sounded as if it came from. That is hardly the same thing as the
witness claiming the gunfire sounded as if it came from multiple
directions.

And yes, yes, yes, you'll find a *few* witnesses who named only one
direction in earlier statements, but then named multiple directions in
later statements. But even including those it still won't get you up to
as many as 10% of these witnesses saying this.

You will also find a few witnesses (and believe me, I already know who
they are), who said the shots came from EITHER this direction OR that
direction. But that's not at all the same thing as saying the shots
sounded as if they came from multiple directions, because the witness
would have to say that they sounded as if they came from this direction
AND that direction, not this direction OR that direction.

The only possible way to prove me wrong on any of this, the only
*possible* way, is to quote *more* than 10% of these witnesses, along
with the original source of the quote so that we can all independently
verify beyond your word that it really is an accurate quotation,
specifically naming multiple directions for the gunfire in a *single*
statement from a *single* original source. And regarding my other
claim, that less than 10% specifically said that any individual shot
sounded louder and/or closer than the others, the same thing would have
to be done. I've been reading this newsgroup since October 2002, and
although admittedly there have been some periods between 2005 and this
past August when I have not read this newsgroup for months at a time,
I've still read many thousands of articles here, and not even one time,
not even once, have I ever seen any poster name more than a handful of
witnesses, numbering in the single-digits only (meaning nine witnesses
or fewer) who specifically said that the gunfire sounded as if it came
from multiple directions, or that any individual shot sounded as if it
was louder and/or closer than any other individual shot.

So I now issue a challenge to Anthony Marsh or indeed to any other
poster who disputes my assertions in the slightest:

For every witness you quote who named multiple directions for the sounds
of the gunfire, I will quote at least nine witnesses who named only one
direction for all of the sounds of gunfire. Notice carefully that my
use of the phrase "at least" indicates that in some cases I may quote
more than nine. And if I'm able to quote nine or more who named only
one direction, for every one that you quote who named multiple
directions, then I will indeed be quoting more than 90%, and you will
indeed be quoting less than 10%. The same challenge is extended for
every one you quote who specifically said that any individual shot
sounded louder and/or closer than any other individual shot: for every
one you quote, I will quote nine or more who said no such thing.

The largest single list of Dealey Plaza witnesses, at least that is
well-known, seems to be the one compiled by Stewart Galanor, who lists a
total of 216 witnesses. He does not, however, claim the list to be
exhaustive. For one thing, he only includes witnesses who are fairly
well confirmed to have really been in Dealey Plaza that day at the time
of the assassination, by photographic evidence, other witnesses
corroborating their presence, statements recorded for posterity within
the first 12 months following the assassination, contemporaneous police
reports confirming these witnesses by name that they were really there
or probably there, etc. Thus his list naturally does not include people
such as Beverly Oliver, from whom the earliest recorded claim of her
being there dates from 1970, or Gordon Arnold and Johnny Powell, from
whom the earliest recorded claims of them being there or hearing the
gunfire date from 1978. But even if you add them it still won't get you
up to 10%, and I warn you in advance that I already know that Gordon
Arnold named only one direction for all of the gunfire -- behind him --
and that he also did not say that any individual shot sounded louder or
closer than the others, or at least certainly did not say so in his
earliest recorded statement as reported by Earl Golz. And Johnny
Powell's little bombshell, also first reported by Earl Golz, was simply
that from his jail cell he saw two men on the sixth floor of the TSBD
doing something with the scope on a single rifle; he did not say that
each of the men had a separate rifle, nor did he say that the shots
sounded as if they came from multiple directions, nor did he say that
any individual shot sounded as if it had a different volume or came from
a different distance than the other shots. In fact, in the original
newspaper story Powell did not say *anything* about the sounds of the
gunfire, not even how many or few shots he recalled hearing.

But even if you add these three witnesses to Galanor's list that still
brings the total up to 219. Thus, since 10% of 219 = 21.9, you have to
quote an absolute minimum of 22 witnesses who said the gunfire sounded
as if it came from multiple directions, and/or said that any individual
shot sounded louder and/or closer than any other individual shot to have
a hope of proving me wrong. And remember, if you use any witnesses such
as the three above, others besides me can plausibly dispute them as
witnesses who are not confirmed as really having been there that day,
since their earliest recorded claims to that effect date from so many
years after the assassination. For Johnny Powell, for example, the only
way you can confirm that he was really there is to produce an official
document showing that he really was in the Dallas County Jail on
11-22-63.

I've been going through all these witness statements for many years, and
I can assure all of you that you will be helplessly unable to quote as
many as 22 witnesses who specifically said that the shots sounded as if
they came from multiple directions, and/or specifically said that at
least one shot sounded louder and/or closer than the other shots AND
also use only witnesses that can reasonably be confirmed to have really
been there at the time of the assassination. I've already given two
examples of witnesses who CANNOT be reasonably confirmed to have really
been there and even THEY did not say that the shots came from multiple
directions and/or different distances. And there are quite a few good
researchers here who will catch you immediately if you try to make up a
"quote" out of thin air without giving a valid source for it, or if you
"name" a "witness" whom few, if any, of us have ever heard about or read
about.

Also, quite a few people, including at least some CTs, will probably
dispute you if you use any of the people, such as James Files, who years
later claimed for the first time ever to have been one of the shooters.
One might say, for example, that even if Files is telling the truth
about everything, he would be classified as a "participant" in the
assassination, rather than a "witness," even though he certainly claimed
to have heard other shots than his being fired, and thus obviously was
claiming that his own shot came from a different direction and was
obviously louder and closer than the other ones, since he was the one
firing it, or so he says. :P

And I am not necessarily going to even wait for Anthony Marsh or anyone
else to start quoting witnesses. If by tomorrow no one has quoted
witnesses I'm going to start quoting them anyway, and day after day
after day I'll just keep adding more. I'll never, ever, ever stop
quoting more, and more, and more of them, until I see no further
challenges, or until I have quoted a minimum of 198 witnesses, which is
indeed more than 90% of the 216 named by Galanor plus the three others I
have named above. In fact, to be safe, I may not stop until I've quoted
at least 200 witnesses.

Who wants to lay bets on whether anyone else will manage to quote even
as many as 20 witnesses who said that the shots came from multiple
directions, and/or said that any individual shot sounded as if it was
louder, or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot? I've
already known for a decade what the inevitable outcome of this will be.
;-)

[Anthony Marsh]

That's the type of qualifier you should have used early in the debate.

> The only possible way to prove me wrong on any of this, the only
> *possible* way, is to quote *more* than 10% of these witnesses, along

Wrong. In my previous message I demolished your phony 10% figure. You
just pulled it out of your ass.

> with the original source of the quote so that we can all independently
> verify beyond your word that it really is an accurate quotation,
> specifically naming multiple directions for the gunfire in a *single*
> statement from a *single* original source. And regarding my other
> claim, that less than 10% specifically said that any individual shot
> sounded louder and/or closer than the others, the same thing would have
> to be done. I've been reading this newsgroup since October 2002, and

Do you really think that everyone is so stupid that they don't catch on?
No matter what the subject will just say 10% every time. "10% of stars
are binaries."

"10% of fish are Jewish."

> although admittedly there have been some periods between 2005 and this
> past August when I have not read this newsgroup for months at a time,
> I've still read many thousands of articles here, and not even one time,
> not even once, have I ever seen any poster name more than a handful of
> witnesses, numbering in the single-digits only (meaning nine witnesses
> or fewer) who specifically said that the gunfire sounded as if it came
> from multiple directions, or that any individual shot sounded as if it
> was louder and/or closer than any other individual shot.
>
> So I now issue a challenge to Anthony Marsh or indeed to any other
> poster who disputes my assertions in the slightest:
>
> For every witness you quote who named multiple directions for the sounds
> of the gunfire, I will quote at least nine witnesses who named only one
> direction for all of the sounds of gunfire. Notice carefully that my

So damn what? Try refuting Josiah Thompson's study in Six Seconds in
Dallas.

> use of the phrase "at least" indicates that in some cases I may quote
> more than nine. And if I'm able to quote nine or more who named only
> one direction, for every one that you quote who named multiple
> directions, then I will indeed be quoting more than 90%, and you will
> indeed be quoting less than 10%. The same challenge is extended for

It doesn't matter what the actual numbers are, you will just say 10%
about anything.

No, not I. I never claimed that 22 witnesses said that the shots came
from two different directions.
Tink say 4 witnesses. Do you think that is 4 out of 219? No. Tink said
only 64 witnesses reported a direction. So 4 witnesses out of 64 is
6.25%. This is what you never do, back up your claims with facts. You
simply guess your way through life.

> as if it came from multiple directions, and/or said that any individual
> shot sounded louder and/or closer than any other individual shot to have
> a hope of proving me wrong. And remember, if you use any witnesses such
> as the three above, others besides me can plausibly dispute them as
> witnesses who are not confirmed as really having been there that day,
> since their earliest recorded claims to that effect date from so many
> years after the assassination. For Johnny Powell, for example, the only
> way you can confirm that he was really there is to produce an official
> document showing that he really was in the Dallas County Jail on
> 11-22-63.
>

And when did I mention Johnny Powell?
Maybe you think you can trick me into naming Gordon Arnold or Beverly
Oliver or Ernest Brant. Silly.
Do you want to start challenging the witnesses I list? This could be fun.
Since I know that you don't have a copy of Six Seconds in Dallas and
know you have no way to find a copy then it will be up to me to list the
4 witnesses.

Sam Holland
A.J. Millican
Dave Powers
Paul Landis

Try to prove they were not in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

> I've been going through all these witness statements for many years, and
> I can assure all of you that you will be helplessly unable to quote as
> many as 22 witnesses who specifically said that the shots sounded as if
> they came from multiple directions, and/or specifically said that at

I never claimed 22 witnesses. Your statistics are phony.

> least one shot sounded louder and/or closer than the other shots AND
> also use only witnesses that can reasonably be confirmed to have really
> been there at the time of the assassination. I've already given two
> examples of witnesses who CANNOT be reasonably confirmed to have really
> been there and even THEY did not say that the shots came from multiple
> directions and/or different distances. And there are quite a few good
> researchers here who will catch you immediately if you try to make up a
> "quote" out of thin air without giving a valid source for it, or if you
> "name" a "witness" whom few, if any, of us have ever heard about or read
> about.
>
> Also, quite a few people, including at least some CTs, will probably
> dispute you if you use any of the people, such as James Files, who years
> later claimed for the first time ever to have been one of the shooters.

James Files never testified to the pattern of shots.

> One might say, for example, that even if Files is telling the truth
> about everything, he would be classified as a "participant" in the
> assassination, rather than a "witness," even though he certainly claimed
> to have heard other shots than his being fired, and thus obviously was
> claiming that his own shot came from a different direction and was
> obviously louder and closer than the other ones, since he was the one
> firing it, or so he says. :P
>

Yeah, and some kid working at the Harvard Coop told me he was in Dealey
Plaza that day and heard shots from two different directions. So what?

> And I am not necessarily going to even wait for Anthony Marsh or anyone
> else to start quoting witnesses. If by tomorrow no one has quoted

Did I offer to quote witnesses? No. I have already quoted witnesses
thousands of times, but you never pay attention. I write whole articles
about witnesses and you are too afraid to read them.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink Perrier.

> witnesses I'm going to start quoting them anyway, and day after day
> after day I'll just keep adding more. I'll never, ever, ever stop

That should be your project. Each day pick a different witness and
source and quote everything that person ever said.

> quoting more, and more, and more of them, until I see no further
> challenges, or until I have quoted a minimum of 198 witnesses, which is
> indeed more than 90% of the 216 named by Galanor plus the three others I
> have named above. In fact, to be safe, I may not stop until I've quoted
> at least 200 witnesses.
>

Why so wimpy? Why not claim 300 witnesses? Or 600 witnesses? As long as
you are having fun making up numbers, go large.

> Who wants to lay bets on whether anyone else will manage to quote even
> as many as 20 witnesses who said that the shots came from multiple
> directions, and/or said that any individual shot sounded as if it was

Straw man argument. No one claimed 20 witnesses.

> louder, or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot? I've
> already known for a decade what the inevitable outcome of this will be.
> ;-)
>

Now you're mixing and matching challenges.
One at a time please.

[John Reagor King]

In article <5063928b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 9/26/2012 4:59 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
>
> > The only possible way to prove me wrong on any of this, the only
> > *possible* way, is to quote *more* than 10% of these witnesses, along
>
> Wrong. In my previous message I demolished your phony 10% figure.

You did not do anything even remotely like "demolish" it. All you said
was that I was wrong, over and over and over, day after day after day, in
article after article after article, without giving a shred of evidence to
support your claim that I am wrong.

> You
> just pulled it out of your ass.

Nope, I got it from the Dealey Plaza witnesses. ;-)

> > with the original source of the quote so that we can all independently
> > verify beyond your word that it really is an accurate quotation,
> > specifically naming multiple directions for the gunfire in a *single*
> > statement from a *single* original source. And regarding my other
> > claim, that less than 10% specifically said that any individual shot
> > sounded louder and/or closer than the others, the same thing would have
> > to be done. I've been reading this newsgroup since October 2002, and
>
> Do you really think that everyone is so stupid that they don't catch on?
> No matter what the subject will just say 10% every time. "10% of stars
> are binaries."
>
> "10% of fish are Jewish."

Ah, here again you are claiming that I said something that I never said,
just like you do several times a day to other posters and to me, day after
day after day. I have almost always said that LESS THAN 10% of the
witnesses said the shots came from multiple directions. My claim is
obviously not *exactly* 10%.

> > although admittedly there have been some periods between 2005 and this
> > past August when I have not read this newsgroup for months at a time,
> > I've still read many thousands of articles here, and not even one time,
> > not even once, have I ever seen any poster name more than a handful of
> > witnesses, numbering in the single-digits only (meaning nine witnesses
> > or fewer) who specifically said that the gunfire sounded as if it came
> > from multiple directions, or that any individual shot sounded as if it
> > was louder and/or closer than any other individual shot.
> >
> > So I now issue a challenge to Anthony Marsh or indeed to any other
> > poster who disputes my assertions in the slightest:
> >
> > For every witness you quote who named multiple directions for the sounds
> > of the gunfire, I will quote at least nine witnesses who named only one
> > direction for all of the sounds of gunfire. Notice carefully that my
>
> So damn what? Try refuting Josiah Thompson's study in Six Seconds in
> Dallas.

Why? He also said that less than 10% of the witnesses said the shots
came from multiple directions. So I have nothing to refute. :P

> > use of the phrase "at least" indicates that in some cases I may quote
> > more than nine. And if I'm able to quote nine or more who named only
> > one direction, for every one that you quote who named multiple
> > directions, then I will indeed be quoting more than 90%, and you will
> > indeed be quoting less than 10%. The same challenge is extended for
>
> It doesn't matter what the actual numbers are, you will just say 10%
> about anything.

You yourself, in your very first reply to me on this particular issue on
September 18, quoted me verbatim saying this:

"In fact, no matter what direction each witness named, and no matter how
each witness worded it, when one looks at all the other witnesses who
named that same direction, no matter how many different years their
statements date from, more than 90% either specifically said that ALL of
the gunfire came from that same direction, or else named no second (or
third or fourth) direction in their entire statements."

Immediately above that you also quoted seven of my sentences in a row
which all began with "More than 90%":

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/c445feb375fe94c3
?dmode=source

So you have no legitimate excuse to have not known from the beginning,
nine days ago, that my argument was not *exactly* 90% but *more* *than*
90%, and thus you have no legitimate excuse not to have already been clear
for the past nine days that my argument is quite obviously that *less*
*than* 10% of the witnesses said shots came from multiple directions, not
10% exactly.

Yet again, as you so often do, several times a day, every day, you act as
if I and other posters are making different arguments from what we're
actually making. I'm not sure I've ever seen any other poster here in the
past decade concoct strawmen nearly as often as you; in fact it may be
that you concoct strawmen more often than all other posters combined.

I never said you did claim that. Another strawman, Anthony. What you
have claimed, falsely, is that I'm wrong when I say less than 10% of the
witnesses said the shots came from multiple directions.

> Tink say 4 witnesses. Do you think that is 4 out of 219? No. Tink said
> only 64 witnesses reported a direction. So 4 witnesses out of 64 is
> 6.25%.

6.25% is indeed less than 10%, Anthony. Did you not know that before
today?

> This is what you never do, back up your claims with facts.

You have just confirmed that I was right all along when I said less than
10%. Since you knew I wasn't wrong, why did you claim I was?

> You
> simply guess your way through life.

No, that's what you do. You "guess" that my argument is *exactly* 10%,
ignoring and ignoring and ignoring all the times that I preceded that
with the words "less than."

> > as if it came from multiple directions, and/or said that any individual
> > shot sounded louder and/or closer than any other individual shot to have
> > a hope of proving me wrong. And remember, if you use any witnesses such
> > as the three above, others besides me can plausibly dispute them as
> > witnesses who are not confirmed as really having been there that day,
> > since their earliest recorded claims to that effect date from so many
> > years after the assassination. For Johnny Powell, for example, the only
> > way you can confirm that he was really there is to produce an official
> > document showing that he really was in the Dallas County Jail on
> > 11-22-63.
>
> And when did I mention Johnny Powell?

When did I *say* you mentioned Johnny Powell? Oh that's right, never.
And you also have no excuse to "not know" that I was addressing others
besides you, even though your name is in the Subject line. In your
reply you quoted me saying that this thread is addressed to everybody,
not you only.

Another strawman, Anthony.

> Maybe you think you can trick me into naming Gordon Arnold or Beverly
> Oliver or Ernest Brant. Silly.

I was addressing anyone who might respond who might use those witnesses,
Anthony, not just you.

Another strawman.

> Do you want to start challenging the witnesses I list? This could be fun.
> Since I know that you don't have a copy of Six Seconds in Dallas

How would you have any possible way of knowing what books I do and do
not have in my house? You've never been in my house. Nor do you have
any photos or videos of the inside of my house.

> and
> know you have no way to find a copy then it will be up to me to list the
> 4 witnesses.
>
> Sam Holland
> A.J. Millican
> Dave Powers
> Paul Landis
>
> Try to prove they were not in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

As I have never claimed they were not in Dealey Plaza during the
shooting, this appears to be yet another strawman from you, Anthony.
You're on a roll. Not just several strawmen a day, but several strawmen
in a single article. ;-)

> > I've been going through all these witness statements for many years, and
> > I can assure all of you that you will be helplessly unable to quote as
> > many as 22 witnesses who specifically said that the shots sounded as if
> > they came from multiple directions, and/or specifically said that at
>
> I never claimed 22 witnesses.

I never said you did. Strawman.

> Your statistics are phony.

You gave a figure above of less than 10%, which is what I've been saying
all along, so you are contradicting yourself. ;-)

> > And I am not necessarily going to even wait for Anthony Marsh or anyone
> > else to start quoting witnesses. If by tomorrow no one has quoted
>
> Did I offer to quote witnesses? No.

Did I ever say you had offered to quote witnesses? No.

Another strawman.

> I have already quoted witnesses
> thousands of times, but you never pay attention.

I have replied plenty of times to articles in which you have quoted
witnesses, so that is another of your outlandish claims, Anthony. ;-)

> I write whole articles
> about witnesses and you are too afraid to read them.

I reply to them because I'm afraid to read them? How do you work that
out? :P

> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink Perrier.

You can lead Anthony to your article, but you can't make him read it.

> > Who wants to lay bets on whether anyone else will manage to quote even
> > as many as 20 witnesses who said that the shots came from multiple
> > directions, and/or said that any individual shot sounded as if it was
>
> Straw man argument. No one claimed 20 witnesses.

No, strawman argument from you. I never said anyone claimed 20
witnesses. ;-)

> > louder, or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot? I've
> > already known for a decade what the inevitable outcome of this will be.
> > ;-)
>
> Now you're mixing and matching challenges.
> One at a time please.

All of those criteria were set forth at the beginning of this thread,
Anthony. They were also set forth in my article that you replied to
nine days ago, and you quoted me saying so on that date, when you quoted
me verbatim saying this:

"More than 90% of the witnesses never, at any time, in any year, in any
circumstances, in any venue, said that any individual shot was louder,
or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot."

That's one of the several of my sentences you quoted on September 18
which began with "More than 90%." So you have no legitimate excuse not
to have known from the beginning that my argument was not only that less
than 10% said the shots came from multiple directions, but also that I
was saying from the beginning that less than 10% said any individual
shot sounded louder and/or closer than the other shots. But of course
now you're acting as if this is a "new" addition of mine in this thread
only.

Yet another example of you acting as if I didn't say something that I
did indeed say.

I'm sure the majority of readers of this newsgroup will quite easily see
right through your vain efforts to make it out as if my arguments have
been quite different from what they actually were. ;-)

[John Reagor King]

Well, I've only seen one reply in this thread so far, from Mr. Marsh
himself, and so far all he's done is to once again falsely claim that I'm
wrong while directly contradicting himself by posting the findings of
another researcher who did indeed give a figure of under 10% for the
witnesses who said the shots came from multiple directions, which of
course is entirely consistent with my own claims at the beginning of this
thread. And so far I do not yet see any article by anyone in this thread
who has quoted even one witness who said the shots came from multiple
directions, or said that any individual shot sounded louder and/or closer
than the other shots. So I will now do exactly what I said I would do.
I very specifically said that I would quote nine or more witnesses who
didn't say the shots came from multiple directions and didn't say there
was any difference in volume and/or distance for each witness that WAS
quoted by another poster saying otherwise. As not one such witness has
been quoted yet, by anyone in this thread, in precise consistency with no
difference whatsoever from the criteria I set for myself at the beginning,
I do not yet have to quote nine.

Because I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to quote one on the other
side.

Obviously. ;-)

So I shall start today with just one witness who didn't say the shots
came from multiple directions and didn't say that there was any
difference in volume and/or distance.

Victoria Adams, FBI report, 11-24-63:

"They observed the motorcade as it approached and began passing in front
of her window and at about 12:30 PM, as the car containing President
KENNEDY, Governor CONNALLY and his wife, was passing, she heard three loud
reports which she first thought to be fire crackers of a crank and she
believed the sound came from toward the right of the building, rather than
from the left and above as it must have been according to subsequent
information disseminated by the news services."

Victoria Adams, WC testimony, April 7, 1964:

**********

Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the
President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that
would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed
from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree, and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a
second shot, and then a third shot. It sounded like a firecracker or a
cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below
rather than from the left above.

**********

In both statements it is said that the gunfire came from the right (or
"the right below") and no other direction is named. There is also no
mention of any difference in volume and/or distance for any of the shots.

If by tomorrow I see that someone, anyone, has quoted a witness or
witnesses who did say that the shots came from multiple directions and/or
did say that at least one of the shots was of a different volume and/or
distance, I will bring my total up to nine or more for each of those
witnesses quoted.

[Robert Harris]

Hmm.. if I actually accused you of being Reitzes, I can see why. You
both seem to subscribe to the "never use 5 words when a hundred will
do." principle:-)

I am quite amazed however, by your claim that exactly 90% of each of
these groups gave consistent answers. What is even more amazing is, that
after writing such a long winded article, you make no attempt
whatsoever, to prove it.





Robert Harris

[Anthony Marsh]

Victoria Adams? I guess that makes it a Straw Woman Argument. No one
suggested Victoria Adams. And I asked you to quote EVERYTHING the
witness ever said. You are cherry picking.

[John Reagor King]

Today I see two new replies in this thread, and one of them contains
this absolutely false claim:

"I am quite amazed however, by your claim that exactly 90% of each of
these groups gave consistent answers."

But we can all plainly see that in my original article in this thread I
did not claim *exactly* 90% for anything at all, not even once. The
second through the eighth paragraphs all start with the words "More than
90%." Those words also occur in the ninth paragraph. And in the tenth
paragraph the words "less than 10%" plainly appear. Nowhere did I claim
"exactly" 90% or "exactly" 10% for anything. Nor do I say anywhere that
whatever percentage it is *above* 90% is the same percentage. I simply
say "more than 90%" for each claim, but never said anything about it
being exactly the same for each, such as 91% for all of them, or 92% for
all of them, etc. It will obviously differ for each of them, and I've
never once claimed otherwise, not even in other threads besides this
one. The only thing I'm specifically claiming is that they are all
*over* 90%, to varying degrees.

Another poster has said that I'm supposed to quote "everything" with
regard to Victoria Adams, and that I only "cherry picked" or some such
thing. I'm not entirely sure what that means. It is quite obviously
unnecessary to quote her entire WC testimony, for example, because not
nearly all of it is about the sounds of gunfire. But I did indeed quote
all of her testimony that relates in any way to the sounds of gunfire.

And still as of today at 1:13 p.m. CDT I see no one in this thread
quoting a single witness who said shots came from multiple directions,
and/or said that the shots were of different volume and/or distances.
So again, going precisely by the criteria I set for myself, I still do
not have to quote nine or more yet. So today I will quote my second
witness who didn't say anything about multiple directions, or different
volume and/or distances.

There is a statement by James Altgens dated the day of the
assassination, which is his original AP report. I quote now the one and
only passage in it in which anything at all is said about the sounds of
the gunfire:

**********

At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street.
I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures. But it turned out
to be just more confusion. Police ran in all directions in search of the
assassin.
B134DN
I did not know until later where the shots came from. I was on the
opposite side of the President�s car from the gunman. He might have hit
me.

**********

He gave only one direction for the gunfire, "from the opposite side of
the street," and said nothing whatsoever about any individual shot
sounding louder, or closer, or farther than the others. I now quote
all, not almost all, but all passages from his WC testimony in which
anything at all was said about the sounds of the gunfire, no matter what
it was:

**********

Mr. LIEBELER - And at that point did you take another picture?
Mr. ALTGENS - I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that
sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently
my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the
shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that
much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a
firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of
such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you
were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car
from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts
fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that
took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last
shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was
not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That
was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?
Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the
damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware
at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I
looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over
here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER - When you say "over here," you indicate what?
Mr. ALTGENS - The left side of the car.
Mr. LIEBELER - That would be approximately the intersection of Elm
Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School
Book Depository Building; isn't that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were a
pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of
accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any
firearms, so I looked back up in this area.
Mr. LIEBELER - Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of
Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from
behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as
he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at
the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't
upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just
lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something
like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on
down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in
my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to
me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact
that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left
side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face---
suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning
in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know
for certain where the shot came from.

..........

Mr. LIEBELER - You are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were
no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which
you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203; is
that correct?
Mr. ALTGENS - No, sir; I did not--you see----all of these shots sounded
the same. If you heard one you would recognize the other shots and these
were all the same. It was a pop that I don't believe I could identify it
any other way than as a firecracker and this particular picture was made
at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by me.

**********

Here his direction for the gunfire has changed from the AP report:
instead of the opposite side of the street, now he was saying all the
shots came "from behind the car," and no other direction. He also
specifically said that all the shots sounded the same, and there is
certainly nothing approaching a claim of any different volume or

[John Reagor King]

On Sep 27, 10:29 pm, Robert Harris <bobharri...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am quite amazed however, by your claim that exactly 90% of each of
> these groups gave consistent answers.

Of course I addressed this yesterday, and do so again today. Nowhere in
my first article in this thread did I claim "exactly 90%" for anything.
We can all plainly see that in eight different paragraphs I specifically
said "more than 90%," and nowhere in my entire article did I even say
that it would be the same percentage *over* 90% for each group, such as
91% for all of them, or 92% for all of them, or 93% for all of them,
etc. Obviously it's going to vary somewhat from group to group, and I
never gave even the most meager hint imaginable to the contrary. All
I'm saying is that they're all over 90%, some by more, some by less.

Ok, so as of 11:27 a.m. CDT today I still do not see a single quotation
by anyone in this thread of any witness who specifically said that the
shots came from multiple directions, and/or specifically said that any
individual shot sounded closer or farther than any of the other shots.
So I shall now continue quoting witnesses who said neither.

The next witness is Danny Arce, another employee who worked in the
Depository as an order filler, similar to the assignment given to
Oswald. In his affidavit on the same day of the assassination,
witnessed by the ubiquitous notary public Mary Rattan, whose signature
is seen on many other such affidavits submitted in this case, there is
no mention in the entire document of what direction Mr. Arce thought the
sounds of gunfire came from, which can easily be confirmed by anyone
looking at the photocopies of the original online, not only where it is
reproduced in CE 2003, but also where photocopies are produced of both
his handwritten version, and the typed version, in the City of Dallas
Archives.

The next document relating to Mr. Arce also dates from the same day, the
day of the assassination, and this is an FBI report on him. Unlike the
FBI report on Ms. Adams above, here he appears to have been quoted
verbatim in his own words; however, like his affidavit taken the same
day, there is no mention at all of where he thought the gunfire came
from.

The next document is CE 1381, a document containing statements from
most, if not all surviving persons (obviously not including Oswald, who
by March, 1964 was long deceased) who worked in any capacity whatsoever
in the Depository. They were all asked to indicate whether or not they
saw Oswald at any time on the day of the assassination, and if so where
and when, whether or not they returned to the Depository after the
shooting for the remainder of the day and if so at what time, and
whether or not they saw any strange or suspicious persons in the
building at any time during the day, though in their statements not all
of them answered all of these questions. In his own statement, dated
March 18, 1964, Mr. Arce said this about what direction he thought the
gunfire had come from:

To the best of my knowledge there were three shots and they came from
the direction of the railroad tracks near the parking lot at the west
end of the Depository building.

So here again we have a witness saying that all the shots, not some of
them, but all of them, sounded as if they came from a single direction.
On April 7, 1964, Mr. Arce testified for the Warren Commission, in what
is by far the lengthiest statement in his entire lifetime recorded in
any form, audio or written, that I know of, regarding the assassination.
Before I get to what he said about where he thought the gunfire came
from, I cannot resist quoting this little tidbit from very near the
beginning of the testimony:

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born
and where you went to school?
Mr. ARCE. I was born here in Dallas and I went to Stephen F. Foster
Elementary school and Alex W. Spence Junior High and Crozier Tech.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. ARCE. Well, I quit school and found a job and worked.
Mr. BALL. Where did you find a job?
Mr. ARCE.. The first job, well, you don't want---
Mr. BALL. No; Just in general.
Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just
odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall Rubenstein and Sons. I haven't
had too many jobs.
Mr. BALL. What is Rubenstein and Son, a restaurant?
Mr. ARCE. No; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them out,
I guess.
Mr. BALL. What else have you done?
Mr. ARCE. That's about all.
Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. ARCE. I started in September---September, I believe, the 6th,
September 6th.
Mr. BALL. Of what year?
Mr. ARCE. 1963.

I am suspecting that certain circles might have what is called a łfield
day˛ regarding his mention of the name łRubenstein.˛ Perhaps another
factoid in the making?
But back to our primary topic, here are the only two passages from the
testimony in which any mention is made about where Mr. Arce thought the
shots came from:

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?
Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I
was on that grassy area part in front.
Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?
Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to
get a higher view. and still couldn't see.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. ARCE. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west
of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what
direction?
Mr. ARCE. From the tracks on the west deal.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. ARCE. Three
Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building?
Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked
directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up
there and I just ran along with them.

As I assume the reader has already noticed, in this testimony as printed
Mr. Arce claimed, just as he did in CE 1381, that all of the shots, not
just some of them, not almost all of them, but all of them, sounded as
if they came from the railroad tracks. The sole addition here is łwest
deal˛ (it is a common expression here in Texas to say łdeal˛ instead of
łthing˛ or łthere˛ or łlocation˛ or łobject˛) but since he preceded that
by łfrom the tracks,˛ and since the railroad tracks were indeed, and are
still today, to the west of the Depository, it is obvious that his claim
here does not conflict in the slightest with that given in CE 1381.
This is yet further evidence that the government did not alter testimony
intentionally, since in both statements he was giving a direction that
was in and of itself woefully inconsistent with a shooter on any floor
of the Depository. But he still said all the shots came from a single
direction. Some circles might finally catch on to this and claim that
this nevertheless is evidence of the government altering testimony since
it still seems to suggest a single shooter in a single location.
However, given the date of the testimony, which is long before the WC
had completed its compilation of witness statements, and thus would have
no possible way of knowing yet how many or how few witnesses would
converge on the claim of all shots coming from a single direction,
whatever that direction was, this accusation is also difficult to
plausibly sustain.

[John Reagor King]

Aight.

It's now 12:03 p.m., CDT, Sunday, September 30, 2012.

I do not see any new articles in this thread since the ones I already
saw yesterday, and still see no one in this thread quoting a single
witness who said the shots came from multiple directions. I also still
see no quotation of any witness who said that any individual shot was
louder or closer, or more distant, than any other shot.

Quite disappointing, I must say, because I can think of a few right off
the top of my head without even having to look them up. It may end up
being up to me to quote them after this is all over, lol.

But anyway, I said I would quote nine or more who didn't say either of
those things for every one quoted who did, and that if no one quoted
any, I would quote at least one per day. So since it has now been four
days since I started this thread, I will now quote my fourth witness.

The next witness is Officer Marrion Baker, who hardly needs any
introduction to anyone who has read at least one percent of the
assassination literature, as he is the officer who has been claimed to
be the first member of any law enforcement agency, local, state, or
federal, to have encountered Oswald after the shooting. I quote here
two documents relating to his view of where the shots came from,
beginning with his affidavit, yet another witnessed by Mary Rattan,
submitted on the day of the assassination:

**********

Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I
realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out
where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on
the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.

**********

Next I give, as is so often the case with these witnesses, the far more
extensive testimony to the Commission, on March 25, 1964, in which Baker
was given far more time and latitude than in the affidavit to explain
where he thought the shots came from:

**********

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to
Houston Street?
Mr. BAKER - AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me
some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I
heard these shots come out.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Could you just tell us what you heard and what
you saw and what you did?
Mr. BAKER - As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was,
I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to
me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up---
Mr. DULLES - I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will
try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were
coming down Houston.

..........

Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise,
what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of
looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either
right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston
and Elm?
Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building
or the building located where?
Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you
heard the first noise?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to
fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and
start flying around.
Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons
came from?
Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the
building right on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you see or do?
Mr. BAKER - Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going
up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because
I couldn't see around this bend.
Mr. BELIN - Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you
heard any more shots?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I
heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.
Mr. BELIN - Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of
these shots?
Mr. BAKER - It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they
were pretty well even to me.
Mr. BELIN - They were pretty well even. Anything else between the time
of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the
time or saw--
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was
high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around
there.

..........

Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that
you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?
Mr. BAKER - I would say they was from the same rifle.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

**********

In the first passage it is seen that Officer Baker, having gotten so far
as to say the shots came from a location that seemed �high,� was
interrupted by former CIA director Allen Dulles for the purpose of
clarifying exactly where Baker was at this time. Shortly afterward
Baker was able to continue his account of the gunfire. The only
difference from his original affidavit is that he now said he thought
the shots came from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and
Houston or the building on the northeast corner. He did not say that
shots came from both buildings. He said that he thought they came from
one building or the other, not one building and the other. Finally, in
the third quotation from the testimony, Baker said that it was his
impression that all the shots sounded as if they came from the same
weapon, implying that all the shots sounded the same in terms of
distance and volume.

[John Reagor King]

As of 11:47 a.m. CDT today, I see no new articles in this thread since
Saturday, except mine from yesterday.

I guess no one is ever, ever, ever going to even *try* to prove me wrong.
But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. No one has even *tried* to do it
here for the past decade.

Not even once.

Obviously because I'm not wrong.

Not even slightly.

So, since not one person, not one, has even *tried* to quote in this
thread even one witness who said shots came from multiple directions (jeez
people, even I know some of them totally from memory, and I've even talked
about one of them in another thread within the past 48 hours), nor has
anyone even *tried* to quote one who said that any individual shot sounded
closer or farther than the other shots, I guess that is a tacit admission
that I was indeed entirely correct when I said that MORE THAN (never said
"exactly") ninety percent of them never said such a thing, and that LESS
THAN (never said "exactly") ten percent of them did say such a thing. In
fact, it looks like it's a LOT less than 10% (I never once said exactly
how much less). So, even the only two people besides me who have posted
in this thread, and acted as if I was even slightly wrong about any of
this, seem helplessly unable to even *try* to prove me wrong.

So I'll just continue, and continue, and continue to prove myself to be,
not almost entirely correct, but ***ENTIRELY*** correct.

Not on *almost* every claim that I made in my first article in this
thread, but on EVERY claim, without a single exception.

Our next witness is Virgie Baker, identified in some documents as Virgie
Rachley, because she married Donald Baker after the assassination but
before she testified to the Warren Commission on July 22, 1964. The first
document is an FBI report dated November 24, 1963, where she is of course
identified as Virgie Rachley:

**********

At about 12:16 p.m. on November 22, 1963 she left her office and went out
the south door of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch the
Presidential motorcade pass. She was standing across the street
immediately in front of the building but on the north side of the entrance
to the Triple Underpass along which the motorcade traveled. She observed
President KENNEDY'S car pass her point of observation and almost
immediately thereafter heard three explosions spaced at intervals which
she at first thought were firecrackers. It sounded as though these sounds
were coming from the direction of the Triple Underpass, and looking in
that direction after the first shot she saw something bounce from the
roadway in front of the Presidential automobile and now presumes it was a
bullet bouncing off the pavement. She stated she did not see president
KENNEDY being shot and that she did not realize this was what happened
until later.

**********

Being also an employee of the TSBD, she also contributed a statement to CE
1381 on March 19, 1964, now as Mrs. Donald Baker, but there she did not
mention what direction she thought the shots had come from. Finally I
give next her testimony to the Warren Commission, and again, just like so
many of these other witnesses, this is either one of the most extensive
accounts, or the most extensive account she ever gave about her
recollections of the assassination to be preserved for posterity. I now
quote all passages from the testimony in which Mrs. Baker gave any
statement whatsoever about the sounds of the gunfire:

**********

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. BAKER. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER When did you first become aware that they were shots?
Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming
from-- there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there
directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the
underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs
back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as
well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the
little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind there this
other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see
anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area
that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the
Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what you
mean?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street
that runs in front of the School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the
triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running
down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside
the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there;
is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

..........

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from
reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears
that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository
Building; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard
at the time?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it
didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come
from the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

..........

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the
shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the
railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these
railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here--when
I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm
Street and Main Street and Commerce.
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or
did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the
Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?
Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't
sound like it was too far off.
Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from
the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

**********

It should also be noted here that, while I did not quote it in the
testimony above since it doesn?t appear in any of the passages relating to
the direction of the gunfire, that in several parts of the testimony Mrs.
Baker also talked about what she thought had been a bullet that she had
seen striking the pavement with the first shot, and one can see above that
this very thing is mentioned in the first FBI report on her. But notice
that in both the FBI report and the Commission testimony it is said that
she thought all the shots came from the direction of the Triple Underpass,
or at least from somewhere along the same railroad tracks that pass over
it, and in the testimony she made it plain that she was referring to the
railroad tracks, which do indeed still today go over Elm on the Triple
Underpass, and continue more or less north along the west side of the
parking lot adjacent to the TSBD, with one branch of the tracks curving
around to the east and passing north of the building. And there is no
mention at all of any individual shot sounding as if it came from a
different distance, closer or farther, than any of the others.

[John Reagor King]

Oh my, it's now been six days since I started this thread, and still not
one poster has produced a quote of a single witness who said the shots
came from multiple directions, and/or said that any individual shot came
from closer or farther away than any other shot. Y'all have *that* much
trouble locating that handful of witnesses? Sheesh, even I knew who
they were long before I started this thread.

Is this the equivalent of a tacit admission that ZERO percent of the
witnesses said such things?

Jeez, it's starting to look like I'm going to have to be the one who
quotes them. And it will *definitely* be less than 10%, proving beyond
all reasonable doubt that not almost every, but every claim I made in my
first article in this thread is absolutely ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT correct.

In the meantime, due to this failure of anyone else to even *try* to
quote a single witness who said those things, I'll just keep going in my
quotations of witnesses who said all the shots came from a single
direction, or at least named only one direction in their entire
statements for any of the shots, and made no mention of any shot
sounding as if it came from closer or farther away than the others, with
some of the witnesses even specifically saying that all the shots *did*
sound as if they all came from exactly the same distance away from
wherever the witness was situated.

We come next to Officer Welcome Barnett of the Dallas Police Department.
In the third paragraph of his July 16, 1964 statement, reproduced in CE
1358, he said that he łchecked the Texas Depository Building around
11:00 a.m.,˛ and in fact this is the only building he named in the
entire statement. In the next and final paragraph, which is the only
one which has anything to do with the gunfire, he said:

**********

When the shots were fired, I looked up and could not see anyone or
anything extending out of the windows. I thought the shots were coming
from the top of the building.

**********

Only a week later, on July 23, 1964, he testified before the Warren
Commission:

**********

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to
where they came from?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you think about them?
Mr. BARNETT - When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a
firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the
whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action.
Mr. LIEBELER - You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from?
Mr. BARNETT - Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But
none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if
a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded
high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from
up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the
windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - In the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; because I was standing to close, was the reason.
And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And
I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building.
To me it is the only place the sound could be coming from.

..........

Mr. LIEBELER - So you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had
come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - There was no notion in your mind that they could have
come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass?
Mr. BARNETT - To me, it is impossible.
Mr. LIEBELER - From the sound of the shots?
Mr. BARNETT - The sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't
echo. It would be a low sound. For a shot to echo, it has to be high up.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mean to hang?
Mr. BARNETT - To hang like that.

**********

In the first quoted passage from the testimony, Officer Barnett said
that when the first shot was fired he was not initially certain where it
had sounded as if it came from, but made it clear that by the time the
last shot was fired he had come to believe it had originated from the
top of the Depository building, which is of course the location he also
gave a week earlier. And notice carefully that he did not on either
occasion specifically say that he thought any individual shot came from
anywhere else; he is yet another witness who named only one location for
any of the sounds of gunfire. Nor is there the slightest mention of any
shot sounding as if it had a different volume, or came from a greater or
lesser distance than the other shots.

[pjsp...@aol.com]

FWIW, Chapters 5 thru 9 at patspeer.com is far and way the largest
collection of witness statements yet assembled. I don't specifically break
them down by the perceived direction of the shots, except briefly in the
last chapter, where I note that the vast majority of witnesses standing in
front of the TSBD thought the last shot came from west of their location.

[John Reagor King]

In article <3e559123-9ea5-404d...@googlegroups.com>,

"pjsp...@AOL.COM" <pjsp...@aol.com> wrote:

> FWIW, Chapters 5 thru 9 at patspeer.com is far and way the largest
> collection of witness statements yet assembled.

I do indeed see some there who are not on Galanor's list. Few of them,
however, are witnesses that I didn't already know about.

> I don't specifically break
> them down by the perceived direction of the shots, except briefly in the
> last chapter, where I note that the vast majority of witnesses standing in
> front of the TSBD thought the last shot came from west of their location.

That is misleading. The vast majority of those witnesses thought ALL the
shots came from west of their location, not the last shot only. I'm
looking right now through the witnesses you quoted in those chapters and
all, or nearly all, of the ones you quoted who said anything about that
direction specifically said ALL the shots came from that direction, or
else named no other direction in the entirety of what you quoted. If I'm
wrong, please post here the names of the witnesses who specifically said
that ONLY the last shot came from west of their location so that I may
look through those chapters again and see if you really quoted them saying
so or not.

So everyone, it has now been one week since I started this thread, and
still not one poster in this thread has actually quoted a single witness
who specifically said that the shots came from multiple directions. Nor
has anyone in this thread quoted a single witness who specifically said
that any individual shot sounded louder and/or closer, or more distant,
than any other shot. So I will continue my own quotations of witnesses
who specifically said that all the shots came from a single direction, or
else named only one direction in their entire statements for all of the
sounds of gunfire, and who said nothing about any difference in volume
and/or distance, or else specifically said that all the shots sounded of
equal volume and or distance.

Today I quote my seventh witness:

The next witness is Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett, who with several
other agents was riding in the car behind the Presidential limousine.
His handwritten notes dated the day of the assassination, which in some
places are difficult to read, are reproduced in CE 2112. I give now the
one passage relating directly to the gunfire:

**********

At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a fire
cracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed fire cracker, looked at
the Boss?s car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the boss about 4
inches down from the right shoulder; a second shoot [sic] followed
immediately and hit the right rear high [sic] of the Boss?s head. I
immediately hollered to Special Agent Hickey, seated in the same seat, to
get the AR-15. I drew my revolver and looked to the rear and to the left
[inserted above: ?high,? and another word I cannot make out] but was
unable to see any one person that could have rendered this terrible
tragedy. The President?s auto immediate [sic] kicked into high gear and
the follow-up car departed [therein (?)].

**********

The following day, Agent Bennett submitted his official report, and this
is what is said there about the shooting:

**********

About thirty minutes after leaving Love Field about 12:25 P.M., the
Motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this
point the well-wishers numbered but a few; the motorcade continued down
this grade enroute to the Trade Mart. At this point I heard what sounded
like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical
area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear
seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back
of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit
the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second
shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's
head. I immediately hollered "he's hit'' and reached for the AR-15 located
on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up
the AR-I5. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of
the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the AR15. I
was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shots. The
President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the follow-up car
followed.

**********

It is seen that in his notes the only indication Bennett gave of a
possible origin of the shots was to say that he looked to the left and
rear (and possibly ?high?) but saw no one who he thought might have been
the shooter. The report of the following day gives an account which is
quite similar in essential details, except that now it is said that ?we?
(apparently Hickey and himself) looked to the rear and to the right,
rather than to the left. Possibly this was merely the common mistake of
accidentally saying left or right when meaning the opposite, as is
articulated in the common expression, ?No, your other left.? Other than
this, however, it does not appear that Bennett thought the shots came from
multiple directions, nor did he in either account make any mention of any
individual shot sounding as if it had any difference in volume and/or

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/3/2012 10:45 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> In article <3e559123-9ea5-404d...@googlegroups.com>,
> "pjsp...@AOL.COM" <pjsp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> FWIW, Chapters 5 thru 9 at patspeer.com is far and way the largest
>> collection of witness statements yet assembled.
>
> I do indeed see some there who are not on Galanor's list. Few of them,
> however, are witnesses that I didn't already know about.
>
>> I don't specifically break
>> them down by the perceived direction of the shots, except briefly in the
>> last chapter, where I note that the vast majority of witnesses standing in
>> front of the TSBD thought the last shot came from west of their location.
>
> That is misleading. The vast majority of those witnesses thought ALL the
> shots came from west of their location, not the last shot only. I'm

"Vast majority" and "all"? What happened to your world famous 90%?

> looking right now through the witnesses you quoted in those chapters and
> all, or nearly all, of the ones you quoted who said anything about that
> direction specifically said ALL the shots came from that direction, or
> else named no other direction in the entirety of what you quoted. If I'm
> wrong, please post here the names of the witnesses who specifically said
> that ONLY the last shot came from west of their location so that I may
> look through those chapters again and see if you really quoted them saying
> so or not.
>
> So everyone, it has now been one week since I started this thread, and
> still not one poster in this thread has actually quoted a single witness
> who specifically said that the shots came from multiple directions. Nor
> has anyone in this thread quoted a single witness who specifically said
> that any individual shot sounded louder and/or closer, or more distant,
> than any other shot. So I will continue my own quotations of witnesses
> who specifically said that all the shots came from a single direction, or
> else named only one direction in their entire statements for all of the
> sounds of gunfire, and who said nothing about any difference in volume
> and/or distance, or else specifically said that all the shots sounded of
> equal volume and or distance.
>

King of the Straw Man arguments.

[John Reagor King]

It has now been eight days since I started this thread, and still not one
poster in it has quoted a single witness who said the shots came from
multiple directions. Nor has anyone yet quoted a single witness who said
that any individual shot sounded as if it came from closer or farther away
than any other individual shot. So I will continue my daily quotations of
witnesses who prove all of my original claims in the first article in this
thread to be absolutely correct.

Jane Berry was another TSBD employee, and in the November 24, 1963 FBI
report on her, this is said:

**********

At approximately 12:40 p.m., on November 22, 1963, she was standing just
west of the building, watching a parade in which President JOHN F. KENNEDY
was riding. Just as the car was passing by her, she heard a rifle shot.
A few seconds later she heard a second and third shot. She observed
President KENNEDY slump over and everyone began falling to the ground or
running. She realized that the President had been shot and observed the
motorcade in which he was riding immediately speed off in a westerly
direction.

Everyone was very excited and no one seemed to know where the shot had
come from. It sounded as if it had been fired from a position west of
where she was standing.

**********

We see here an example of something that appears in quite a few of these
statements, the use of the singular. The second paragraph refers to ?the
shot? and ?it? as if only one of the shots is being referred to as far as
the direction. However, notice that in the entire statement there is no
mention of any other direction for any of the sounds of gunfire other than
?from a position west of where she was standing.?

Like most of the other TSBD employees, Ms. Berry contributed a statement
to CE 1381, hers being dated March 19, 1964. But although there she said
she heard three shots, there is no mention whatsoever of what direction
she thought they came from, and in neither of these documents is there any
mention of any single shot sounding as if it was closer or farther than
the other shots.

[John Reagor King]

In article <506d199c$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> King of the Straw Man arguments.

No, that would be you. You really outdid yourself yesterday when you said
this about me:

"You have JFK"s fists up by Z-225 and then the bullet hitting Connally at
Z-226."

I'm never again going to take anything you say seriously until you admit
that I never said that JFK already had his fists up by Z225. Quite
obviously, if you refuse to admit an obvious mistake like that, you have
probably made mistakes about the JFK assassination too, which you have
also refused to admit.

[John Reagor King]

I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has still not even *tried* to
*prove* me to be even slightly incorrect on a single one of my claims that
I have made in this thread. He also, yet again, has utterly failed to
quote even one witness who said the shots came from multiple directions,
and he has utterly failed to quote even a single witness who said that any
individual shot sounded as if it came from closer or farther away than any
other individual shot.

So I will just continue my quotations of witnesses who said neither of
those things, but instead were quite obviously under the impression that
all of the shots were fired from a single location, whatever that location
was.

The next witness is Hugh Betzner, who took some now-famous photographs in
Dealey Plaza before, during, and after the shooting. In his affidavit of
the same day, he said this about the shots he heard:

**********

I was standing on Houston Street near the intersection of Elm Street. I
took a picture of President Kennedy's car as it passed along Houston
Street. I have an old camera. I looked down real quick and rolled the film
to take the next picture. I then ran down to the corner of Elm andHouston
[sic] Streets, this being the southwest corner. I was standing back from
the corner and had to take the pictures through some of the crowd. I ran
on down Elm a little more and President Kennedy's car was starting to go
down the hill to the triple underpass. I was running trying to keep the
President's car in my view and was winding my film as I ran. I was looking
down at my camera to see the number of the film as I ran. I took another
picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I
started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that
this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up
and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few
seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and
another one and they looked like the cars were stopped. Then I saw a flash
of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car.
Then I ran around so I could look over the back of a monument and I either
saw the following then or when I was sitting back down on the corner of
Elm Street. I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the
following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a
firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was
because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either
the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those
cars pull out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked
like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or
somewhere immediately around his car. Then the President's car sped on
under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators started running up the
hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood. I
assumed that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I kept
watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I
walked down toward where the President's car had stopped. I saw a Police
Officer and some men in plain clothes. I don't know who they were. These
Police Officers and the men in plain clothes were digging around in the
dirt as if they were looking for a bullet. I walked back around the
monument over to Elm Street where they were digging in the dirt. I went on
across the street and up the embankment to where the fence is located. By
this time almost all of the people had left.

**********

Mr. Betzner mentioned only one direction for the origin of any shot, the
fence across the street, the fence on what later came to be called the
grassy knoll, although it seems that he thought this not so much because
of the sounds of gunfire, but because he saw people running up to the
fence. And again, there is no mention of any shot sounding closer or
farther than any other shot.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/5/2012 4:21 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has still not even *tried* to
> *prove* me to be even slightly incorrect on a single one of my claims that
> I have made in this thread. He also, yet again, has utterly failed to

I have quoted them thousands of times, but every time I do you bury your
head in the sand.

[John Reagor King]

In article <506f7bad$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have quoted them thousands of times, but every time I do you bury your

Let's set the record straight, everyone.

First of all, Mr. Marsh knew perfectly well, long before he posted this
article, that I did not read more than a very few of his articles between
2005 and about a month ago. He also knows perfectly well why that is:
because in 2005 he kept claiming that I said things I never said and then
absolutely refused to admit his mistakes even after they were pointed out
to him. I decided to give him another chance around the beginning of last
month, but I have found he hasn't changed in the slightest. He still
frequently claims that I and other posters here have said things we've
never said. This of course serves no constructive purpose whatsoever in
discussing the JFK assassination, and in fact it is a disservice to any
such discussion.

Secondly, Mr. Marsh knew perfectly well long before he posted this article
that I was often absent from this newsgroup for months at a time between
2005 and this past July.

Thirdly, it is irrelevant how many times Mr. Marsh has quoted these
witnesses. What is relevant is how many witnesses he has quoted. In the
past month I have only seen Mr. Marsh name one witness who said that the
shots came from multiple directions. But that was in another thread, and
he did not actually quote that witness saying so. And I do not recall
ever seeing him quote any witness who said that any individual shot
sounded as if it came from closer or farther away than any other shot.

So I call everyone to notice again that in *this* thread not one poster,
not one, has yet quoted a single witness who said that the shots came from
multiple directions. Nor has anyone in *this* thread quoted a single
witness who said that the shots came from different distances away from
that witness. So I will continue to quote witnesses who said neither of
those things.

Let me remind everyone of what I said at the beginning of this thread. I
said for every witness who is quoted, along with the original source,
saying that the shots came from multiple directions, I would be able to
produce nine or more who said otherwise. I am now about to quote my tenth
witness in this thread, even *without* anyone having quoted in *this*
thread a single witness who said the shots came from multiple directions.
I am already getting ahead of the tiny, tiny, tiny minority of posters in
this newsgroup who are the naysayers. Only three posters have so far
specifically disputed my claims on this matter in any thread: Robert
Harris, Curt Jester, and Anthony Marsh. Not even Pat Speer in this thread
made any specific statement that all of my claims at the beginning of this
thread are incorrect. That means even the vast majority of CTs alone in
this newsgroup haven't disputed me in the slightest on this.

Obviously because they know better.

Witness number ten:

Next we have Officer Eugene Boone of the Dallas County Sheriff?s
Department, and his claim to fame is that he is the person who found the
rifle on the sixth floor of the Depository. But of course what concerns
us here is what he said about the sounds of the gunfire. I give first his
report filed on the day of the assassination, which is reproduced in
Decker Exhibit No. 5323:

**********

Att [sic] approx. 1pm date I was in front of the Sheriffs [sic] Office at
505 Main St Dallas Texas when I heard three shots coming from the vicinity
of where the Presidents [sic] car was, I raced across the street (Main &
Houston). The Presidential car and other cars were turning onto Stemmons
Fwy. Some of the bystanders said the shots came from the overpass. I ran
across the street (Elm) and up the embankment over the retaining wall and
into the freight yard and was unable to locate anything.

**********

I advise readers not to trust what any author says about these documents
without reading them for yourself. If you go by Galanor?s list you may
notice that Galanor puts Boone in the ?Knoll? category. But that isn?t
what Boone said here. He said the vicinity of the President?s car, and it
should be noted that most researchers agree that the limousine was
somewhere in front of the Depository at least when the first shot was
fired. Also Boone said that witnesses told him the shots came from the
overpass, not that he himself thought the shots came from the overpass.
That also is not the knoll. I have noticed Galanor doing this sort of
thing with other witnesses as well. Next I give Boone?s testimony to the
Warren Commission, taken on March 25, 1964:

**********

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November, where were you working?
Mr. BOONE - I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade.
Mr. BALL - Where did you view the parade?
Mr. BOONE - Right in front of the sheriff's office.
Mr. BALL - Had you been assigned a place, a job that day?
Mr. BOONE - No.
Mr. BALL - You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street?
Mr. BOONE - That is correct.
Mr. BALL - Near Houston?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And who were you with?
Mr. BOONE - Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the
office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what have you.
Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer
Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember.
Mr. BALL - What happened there?
Mr. BOONE - Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the
shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the
north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And
there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot
and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street
there.
Mr. BALL - You raced across what street?
Mr. BOONE - Houston Street.
Mr. BALL - You turned to your right and went west?
Mr. BOONE - Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west
across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind the
large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed to
think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, from
over the triple underpass. So there was some city officer, I don't know
who he was, motorcycle officer had laid his motorcycle down and was
running up the embankment to get over a little retaining wall that
separates the freight yards there. He went over the wall first, and I was
right behind him, going into the freight yards. We searched out the
freight yards. We were unable to find anything.

**********

In both statements Boone was consistent in describing his own actions: in
both he said he watched the motorcade from in front of the Sheriff?s
office, and then after the shots were fired he ran over to the freight
yard. Absent this time before the Commission is his earlier claim of
initially believing the shots came from the vicinity of the limousine, but
he still said again here that bystanders told him the shots had all come
from a certain direction. This time it is not simply ?the overpass,? but
instead ?from up over the railroad in the freight yards, from over the
triple underpass.? But again he did not say that this was his own
impression of where the shots came from, but instead what witnesses told
him. And this is not exactly the knoll either. There is also no mention
of Boone himself, or any of the witnesses he talked to, saying that the
shots came from multiple directions, nor is there any mention of any of
them thinking that any of the shots came from a different distance, closer
or farther, than the other shots.

[John Reagor King]

It has now been eleven days since I started this thread, and still not
one person, not one, has in this thread quoted a single witness who said
the shots came from multiple directions. Nor has anyone quoted a single
witness who said that any individual shot sounded louder and/or closer,
or more distant, than any other shot. Only two posters in this thread,
and one in another, have made any specific claim that I am "wrong" in
any of my claims made in the first article in this thread. But they all
seem very reluctant to post in this thread even the most meager shred of
evidence imaginable that I am even slightly wrong on even a single one
of those claims. So I shall simply continue to *prove* my claims to be
correct by continuing to post witnesses who each named a *single*
direction for *all* of the gunfire, and who made no mention of any
difference in volume or distance in any of the shots.

Witness number eleven:

Another well-known witness in the assassination literature is Lee
Bowers, whose statements about the assassination have been used in
various ways by various authors, both to support and dispute the idea of
multiple shooters. Bowers was in quite a unique position: he was in the
railroad tower near the parking lot adjacent to the TSBD, and could see
more or less the entirety of the back side of the picket fence that runs
along the grassy knoll, and furthermore from a position of some
elevation to see over the cars in the lot. There is a report on Bowers
from the day of the assassination by Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins, but
most of the document concerns only the issue of the cars in the parking
lot, including that Bowers had seen two cars driving through the lot
prior to the shooting. There is only one sentence in the document in
which the shooting is mentioned at all, and nothing more is said than
that Bowers heard three shots. On the same day Bowers submitted an
affidavit, but again in this document nearly all of it is about the cars
in the lot, and of the shots the only description that is given is that
�I heard at least 3 shots very close together.�

But again, as is so often the case with these witnesses, Bowers was
allowed to expound at much greater length before the Warren Commission
than ever before, and I quote here in their entirety all passages in
which anything at all is said about the gunfire itself, from his
testimony of April 2, 1964:

**********

Mr. BOWERS - I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two
very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the
sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School
Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the
tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years,
and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository
Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds
occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you
heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository
Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in
hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository
Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from
the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a
reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass
before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various
occurrences.
Mr. BALL - And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School
Depository when they were building there?
Mr. BOWERS - They were renovating. I---did carpenter work as well as
sandblasted the outside of the building.

..........

Mr. BALL - When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?
Mr. BOWERS - At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly
towards the area---at the moment of the first shot, as close as my
recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative
masonry wall in the area.
Mr. BALL - And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see
the car?
Mr. BOWERS - No; at the moment of the shots, I could---I do not think
that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last
shot.

**********

I have said earlier that I feel that sometimes Galanor has made rather
strange choices regarding the categories into which he puts these
witnesses. For Bowers, Galanor says �Knoll & Depository.� But here
again, that is not what the witness said. Bowers said, �The sounds came
either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth
of the triple underpass.� From either up against the Depository or near
the mouth of the Triple Underpass. He did not say the Depository *and*
the Triple Underpass. He said the Depository *or* the Triple Underpass,
and he was quite plain that he was not sure which. And neither of these
locations is the knoll, unless one interprets �up against� the
Depository as shots from the knoll echoing off the west side of the
building. But then that makes Galanor�s interpretation even more
problematic, because then that would be the knoll, and the Triple
Underpass would be a different location, so with that interpretation he
should have said �Knoll or Triple Underpass.� But it should be obvious
that Bowers was not claiming that the gunfire came from two directions.
He was clearly saying that he thought it came from one direction *or*
the other, not one direction *and* the other. And notice there is no
mention at all of any shot sounding louder, or closer, or farther, than
any of the other shots.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/7/2012 11:12 AM, John Reagor King wrote:
> It has now been eleven days since I started this thread, and still not
> one person, not one, has in this thread quoted a single witness who said
> the shots came from multiple directions. Nor has anyone quoted a single

Except for YOU.

> witness who said that any individual shot sounded louder and/or closer,
> or more distant, than any other shot. Only two posters in this thread,

Except for YOU.

> and one in another, have made any specific claim that I am "wrong" in
> any of my claims made in the first article in this thread. But they all

We don't need to. It is merely sufficient to say that you are always
wrong about everything. That is your goal in life.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, unlike you I don't post exactly the same message 100 times every
day for months and call them all separate messages.
Nor is all my writing only here in this newsgroup. You refuse to read
everything I write. That is your choice, but then don't claim that I
never wrote it.

> So I call everyone to notice again that in *this* thread not one poster,
> not one, has yet quoted a single witness who said that the shots came from
> multiple directions. Nor has anyone in *this* thread quoted a single

Except YOU.

> witness who said that the shots came from different distances away from
> that witness. So I will continue to quote witnesses who said neither of
> those things.
>

Except YOU.

Make sure that you ONLY quote the WC and never any other source. Or else
how would you be able to confirm that you are a WC defender?

[John Reagor King]

In article <5071cde8$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> It is merely sufficient to say that you are always
> wrong about everything. That is your goal in life.

I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has still not made the most
meager attempt imaginable to even *try* to actually *prove* that a single
one of my claims in the first article in this thread are even *slightly*
incorrect. His whole argument boils down to nothing more than, "You're
wrong just because." This of course is woefully unconvincing to any
reasonable person. Still as of today not one poster in this thread, not
one, not even Mr. Marsh himself, has actually *quoted* a single witness
specifically saying that the shots came from multiple directions, nor has
he or anyone else in this thread quoted a single witness who said that any
individual shot came from closer or farther away than the other shots.
So yet again I will continue to prove that all of my claims in my original
article in this thread are absolutely correct.

Witness number twelve:

Charles Brehm and his five-year-old son, James, were standing across the
street from Abraham Zapruder, i.e. on the south side of Elm not far from
the curb. They can clearly be seen in the film from roughly frame 270 to
frame 300, or for a little under two seconds when the film is viewed in
real time. They are standing about twenty feet or so to the left of Jean
Hill in her bright red coat, and Charles Brehm is wearing a white
long-sleeved shirt and dark pants. Thus he and his son were among the
closest witnesses to the limousine as the shots were being fired. Brehm
was interviewed by the Dallas Times Herald soon after the shooting, and in
that article this is said:

**********

The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the
shooting. "The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just
slumped. Then on the second shot he seemed to fall back." Brehm seemed to
think the shots came from in front of or beside the President. He
explained the President did not slump forward as if he would have after
being shot from the rear. The book depository building stands in the rear
of the President's location at the time of the shooting.

**********

Again here I find Galanor?s decision of which category to put Brehm in
curious. Even though right below the category Galanor quotes exactly what
I quoted above, Brehm is said to be a ?Knoll & Depository? witness. Yet
we can all plainly see that the article says that he thought the shots
came from in front of *or* beside the President, not in front of *and*
beside the President. Galanor seems to consistently confuse the use of
the conjunction ?or? with one of a different meaning, ?and.?

Two days after the assassination Brehm was interviewed by the FBI. This
also is a document quoted verbatim by Galanor:

**********

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the
President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning
forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to
be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to
stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President
appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was
hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and
then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in
that direction. BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three
shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military
service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he
expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as
quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and
fire three shots. BREHM stated he definitely knew the President had been
shot and he recalled having seen blood on the President's face. He also
stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one
of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.
Immediately after the third shot rang out, BREHM pushed his son down on
the grass and for the moment was more concerned with the safety of his son
who might be hit accidentally by any wild gunfire which might follow.
BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the
President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that
the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he
is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was
riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of
his sight.

**********

Let us look carefully at the only sentence in the entire document in which
anything at all is said about where Brehm thought the gunfire had come
from: ?He also stated that it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots
came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston
Streets.? One of two buildings. Quite obviously this means only one
building *or* the other, not one building *and* the other. And this time
neither of these can be correctly interpreted as being the knoll. One
must therefore wonder about Galanor?s integrity to quote this in support
of his ?Knoll & Depository? category, when this document clearly does not
support that at all. This is yet another example of what I have often
said: never trust what someone else tells you a document says. Read the
document for yourself before you decide that the author or researcher is
correct.

However, I should at least note that this description is rather different
from the newspaper article. There Brehm apparently made no reference to
any buildings. Still, in both documents, while the description of
direction has certainly changed, it is still clear that in neither case
did Brehm appear to be suggesting that the shots came from multiple
directions.

[John Reagor King]

Time to set the record straight again, everybody. :D

In article <5071fbfa$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Here Mr. Marsh is again making a very false claim about me, to be added
to so very many others. I have never once come even remotely close to
posting an identical message 100 times. I have done that maybe a
handful of times at the most. And I certainly haven't done anything
even remotely like that "for months," lol.

> Nor is all my writing only here in this newsgroup. You refuse to read
> everything I write.

Here Mr. Marsh is being quite unreasonable, everyone, and this is of
course nothing new for him. I have never once suggested to him that he
read everything I have ever written in this newsgroup or out of it, so
he is off base suggesting that anyone should read everything he has ever
written either. He also falsely claims that I "refuse" to read what
he's written, when in actuality he knows perfectly well that nearly
every time since the middle of last month that he has posted any link to
anything he's written in reply to me, I have almost always gone right to
it and read it, even though on most of those occasions he falsely
accused me of "refusing" or being "afraid" to go read these things.

> That is your choice, but then don't claim that I
> never wrote it.

I honestly do not recall ever once claiming that Mr. Marsh didn't write
something that he did write, unless I made an honest mistake, and if so
I almost always admit such mistakes as soon as they are pointed out to
me. I have *correctly* observed that in *this* thread, nowhere else,
just *this* thread only, Mr. Marsh has not quoted a single witness, or
even *named* a single witness *without* quoting what the witness said,
who said that the shots came from multiple directions, and/or different
distances. I have *never* said that he has not named and quoted such
witnesses *elsewhere*. I know perfectly well that he has. In fact,
*both* he and I have *named* such a witness in *other* threads recently,
though *neither* of us *quoted* that witness in those other threads.
I'm simply wondering what's taking everybody so long to name and quote a
single one of them in *this* thread. ;-)

I shall also note again to everyone that Mr. Marsh does not exactly
practice what he preaches. For at least seven years he has frequently
claimed that I have said things that I never said, and then absolutely

refused to admit his mistakes even after they were pointed out to him.

He does this to many other posters as well. A week ago he claimed that
I said JFK already had his fists up by Z225, but sadly, even though I
have been pointing out his mistake several times a day since then, he
still refuses to plainly admit he made this mistake. What does this say
regarding his credibility on other issues?

> > So I call everyone to notice again that in *this* thread not one poster,
> > not one, has yet quoted a single witness who said that the shots came from
> > multiple directions. Nor has anyone in *this* thread quoted a single
>
> Except YOU.

Notice, everyone, that Mr. Marsh fails to give the *name* of such a
witness that I have supposedly quoted in *this* thread. And that
multi-direction witness that I mentioned above that I have indeed
mentioned several times recently in *other* threads was not a witness
that I actually *quoted* in those threads, so once again Mr. Marsh has
made a false claim.

> > witness who said that the shots came from different distances away from
> > that witness. So I will continue to quote witnesses who said neither of
> > those things.
>
> Except YOU.

And still no such witness is named in *this* thread.

Mr. Marsh seems to be under the delusion that I would not *welcome* the
naming and quoting of such witness in *this* thread, as long as a valid
original source is given. In fact, I've been waiting, and waiting, and
waiting for just someone, just *anyone*, not Mr. Marsh only, to do such
a thing, and I've already said several times in *this* thread that if no
one ever quotes such witness in *this* thread that I will eventually do
so myself. But we can all see that my original proposition was that for
every multi-direction and/or multi-distance witness that was quoted in
*this* thread, I would quote nine or more who gave a single direction
and said nothing about differences in volume and/or distance. I'm
already up to twelve witnesses as of yesterday. We're still at zero in
*this* thread for witnesses who said the shots came from multiple
directions and/or from different distances.

Now everybody, see how very laughable this claim by Mr. Marsh is? For
James Altgens in this thread I did not only use WC documents. I also
quoted verbatim from his original AP report sent in on the day of the
assassination. That is a source quite independent of the WC, since that
document dates from *before* the WC was even formed. For Danny Arce one
of my sources was his same-day affidavit, which likewise is not in
origin a WC document. Just because a document was also reproduced
*later* in the WC volumes doesn't mean that the WC volumes are the only
source for it. Many of these affidavits in their original forms *prior*
to the WC printing them can be viewed on various websites, such as Mary
Ferrell and the City of Dallas Archives. For Glenn Bennett I used his
handwritten notes *and* his official report, both of which also predate
the formation of the WC. For Hugh Betzner I used his original affidavit
as well. For Eugene Boone I also did not only use his WC testimony, I
also quoted verbatim from his same-day affidavit, which is not in its
origin a WC document. For Lee Bowers I also referred to his same-day
affidavit and quoted the only part in it in which anything at all was
said about the gunfire, no matter what it was; I did not only use his WC
testimony. For Charles Brehm I quoted verbatim from his interview with
the Dallas Morning News, and that *certainly* is not a WC document in
origin. And for my thirteenth witness that I'm about to quote today,
I'm not going to use *any* WC documents.

> Or else
> how would you be able to confirm that you are a WC defender?

Since I am coming nowhere even remotely close to quoting only from WC
documents, that question is meaningless.

So once again I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has said
repeatedly that my claims in the original article of this thread are
incorrect, but that he has not even *tried* to *prove* them to be even
*slightly* incorrect, not even in *other* threads. All he ever does is
just "say" I'm wrong, without even making the slightest attempt to
*prove* me wrong. In stark contrast, I continue, day after day after
day in this thread, to add more and more and more evidence that every
single claim I made in my original article is quite provably correct.
If someone, anyone is thinking that I am even remotely close to being
done quoting these witnesses you would be sadly mistaken.

Witness number thirteen:

Here I want to mention an omission from Galanor�s list, but this time,
instead of it being an understandable omission as is the case with
Gordon Arnold, since Mr. Arnold cannot be reasonably proven to have even
been in Dealey Plaza that day, this witness was most definitely in
Dealey Plaza that day, and the documentation of his presence is quite
solid, to put it mildly. This is none other than Hugh Aynesworth (b.
1931), who at the time was a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, and
who ever since has written extensively about the assassination. As of
this writing I have unfortunately been unable to locate any of the
complete, unabridged, original articles that he wrote at any time from
the day of the assassination to a year later. I have so far only seen
excerpts quoted by authors, and as I have made plain before, I hesitate
to trust those quotations until I see the complete original texts.
Nevertheless plenty of information about him can be found online, and it
is quite clear that in general over the years he has supported the idea
of a single assassin firing from nowhere else but the Texas School Book
Depository. One later article that can be found online is in Texas
Monthly dating from March, 1976, titled "The Man Who Saw Too Much." Mr.
Aynesworth was also interviewed for the book "No More Silence" by Larry
Sneed, published in 1998. He has also written several books, including
"JFK: Breaking the News," published in 2003. There is also an article
about him online dated December 3, 2010, in which he is said to be quite
adamant that there was no conspiracy in the assassination.

I will now give a few examples, along with the URLs for the webpages
from which I am citing.

Here's the 12-3-10 article I mentioned above:

http://www.mywesttexas.com/top_stories/article_38b31e0a-eb9b-5a22-9dc6-21
674b814a2e.html

I do not see any statement being attributed to him there in which he is
said to believe that the shots came from multiple directions, do any of
you? Nor do I see him suggesting that the shots came from different
distances, do any of you? Instead I see things like this:

"There have been 200 conspiracies and not one scintilla of evidence,"
Aynesworth said. "At some point and time, we have to be honest. There is
nothing there."

And this:

"All of a sudden, as they are turning to go down Elm, I hear a shot, but
I didn't think it was a shot," Aynesworth said. "We didn't know where
the shots were coming from. We didn't know who was shooting. We didn't
know how many there were. We didn't know anything. It was a scary time."

Here appears to be the entirety of the 1976 Texas Monthly article that I
mentioned above:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HywEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q
&f=false

It is quite long, and to see the rest of it, when you get to p.89 you'll
have to click "(Continued on page 114)". I see no statement anywhere in
it claiming that Aynesworth ever believed there were multiple shooters,
not even a brief initial belief on the day of the assassination only.
Instead I see statements to the contrary, such as this on p.89:

"What transformed Hugh Aynesworth from an aviation and space reporter
into the investigative reporter who has broken almost every major
assassination story, the reporter who stuck out his neck to defend Clay
Shaw against New Orleans DA Jim Garrison, the man who refuses to
capitalize on the assassination by writing a conspiracy book because,
simply, he doesn't believe there was one, what transformed Aynesworth
was the personal, firsthand experience of history."

Here are some excerpts from some reviews of "JFK: Breaking the News":

"The author doesn't offer any conspiracy theories or apologies for
investigations less than perfect."

"Teamed once again with his old writing partner, Stephen Michaud (The
Only Living Witness, etc.) Aynesworth not only sets the record straight,
once and for all, (and totally vanquishes the hordes of conspiracy
theorists in the process) but also unveils a long list of fascinating
insider tidbits, such as the outrageous way that Melvin Belli hit on the
epilepsy defense for Jack Ruby, and how Lee Harvey Oswald's widow,
Mariana, briefly found comfort in the arms of another man. More
significantly, he reports for the first time the FBI's lame excuse for
not telling the Dallas Police Department that someone potentially
dangerous as Oswald would enjoy a sniper's-eye seat to Kennedy's
motorcade. It wasn't a plot, but sheer laziness and stupidity that made
the assassination possible. The material on bizarre New Orleans District
Attorney Jim Garrison alone is worth the cover price."

"Good to start with but i found towards the end it became conspiracy
bashing.After all that has been found out about certain people in high
places you would expect a newspaperman to err on the side of caution"

http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Breaking-News-Hugh-Aynesworth/product-reviews/0
963910361

It is quite obvious that none of these people have gotten the impression
from the book that Aynesworth ever believed that shots came from
multiple directions.

This is supposedly from the forward to the same book:

"No one ever wanted to find the conspirators in the assassination of
John F. Kennedy more than Hugh Aynesworth. No one ever searched with
more diligence, more determination,or with more dogged dedication to
expose the plot and identify the plotters. But Hugh, like every good
reporter, learned early to follow the facts. The good reporter loves the
surprise of finding where the facts lead, if not to a conspiracy to
something more interesting and more unexpected, to a tangled story of
unlikely men and women caught up in malice, misfeasance, and murder."

http://leadandgold.blogspot.com/2008/04/entertaining-and-important-book-f
rom.html

From a transcript of the documentary "Oswald's ghost":

"Hugh Aynesworth, Reporter: I'd had coffee with my friends at the Dallas
News and I didn't have anything to do that morning. So by I guess about
11 o'clock I decided I'd just walk over, it isn't every day that the
president comes to town, you know. As he goes by two or three seconds
later, I hear a pop, I think it is a motorcycle backfire because a
motorcycle had just gone by, and then suddenly a second or two later
another and then another. Three shots."

"Hugh Aynesworth, Reporter: I was interviewing everyone who thought they
saw anything or heard anything. One of the first people I interviewed
was the real one eyewitness that sat on the parapet just across from
Oswald and watched him for several minutes in the window. That's how
they got the all-points bulletin a few minutes later."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/oswald/program/pt.html

Nope, nothing there either about Aynesworth ever believing, even
briefly, that the shots came from multiple directions.

From a review of the same documentary:

'According to Hugh Aynesworth, a Dallas reporter who was on the scene,
though he acknowledges there is no evidence of a conspiracy more than
four decades later, the event will probably remain "an unsolved forever
murder."'

http://www.lariat.org/AtTheMovies/nora/ozwldgost.html

In case anyone is challenged with the English language, "unsolved
forever" does not mean the same thing as "multiple shooters."

Here is an article by Mr. Aynesworth written for the 90th birthday of
James Leavelle, who of course was handcuffed to Oswald at the time the
latter was shot by Jack Ruby:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html

I see no suggestion there whatsoever that Aynesworth ever believed in
multiple shooters in Dealey Plaza, not even a brief initial belief that
lasted less than one day.

Here's the full documentary "Oswald's Ghost":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWI9AiPgRHc

Someone, anyone "quote" the imaginary statement that Hugh Aynesworth
*doesn't* make in this documentary, along with the imaginary minute and
second in which he *doesn't* begin to make such a statement, where he
*doesn't* say that he *ever*, even on a single day only, believed in
multiple shooters in Dealey Plaza. The rest of us can easily confirm
that is such a "quote" is attributed to him in this documentary that the
person "quoting" him saying any of these things will be making the
"quote" up out of thin air. For everyone else who honestly wants to
know what he *really* said, his first appearance in the documentary is a
little after 5:00. Any of you can compare the part where he first
begins speaking to the transcript given above. He also appears several
more times in the documentary.

Here is a story about Aynesworth's recent appearance on April 11, 2012,
on a college campus to talk about the assassination:

http://newsregisteronline.com/?p=1223

I still see no mention of any claim that Aynesworth ever believed, even
very briefly on the day of the assassination only, or on any other day
of his life ever since, that there were multiple shooters in Dealey
Plaza. Instead I see things like this:

'�It was amazing, the happiness and the feeling of good will that was in
the crowd,� recalled Aynesworth. �Then all of a sudden BOOM! One shot,
but I thought it was backfire from a motorcycle. Then a second and then
a third. I then realized it was shots from a rifle. We didn�t know where
the fire was coming from or if we�d be next. People were throwing their
children to the ground and taking cover. Everyone was scared,� he said.'

And this:

"Aynesworth, who debunks all of the widespread conspiracy theories
related to the assassination of President Kennedy, spoke specifically of
information that casts all other suspicions in certain doubt."

Here's the documentary "Beyond Conspiracy" in which Aynesworth also
appears. Someone, anyone, find the imaginary spot in the video in which
Aynesworth "says he ever believed" that there were multiple shooters in
Dealey Plaza. Please give the imaginary time in minutes and seconds for
him, uh, "saying" this, so that the rest of us, including the majority
of the CTs here, can have a good laugh.

As I said above, I have not *yet* found any complete, unabridged posting
of any article Mr. Aynesworth wrote about the assassination within the
first twelve months of the event, including on the day itself. This
should not be interpreted as any such nonsense such as that I have
"given up," nor that I "cannot" find such a thing. It merely means that
I haven't yet. Pat Speer, in his single post in this thread so far, has
mentioned that witnesses are quoted on his website who are not on
Galanor's list, and of course one of them is Aynesworth. Mr. Speer also
made this misleading statement:

"I don't specifically break them down by the perceived direction of the
shots, except briefly in the last chapter, where I note that the vast
majority of witnesses standing in front of the TSBD thought the last
shot came from west of their location."

In my reply to him I noted that he seemed to be implying that these
witnesses meant that *only* the last shot came from west of their
location, but when I looked through his quotations of these same
witnesses I could not find *one* of them who said that the last shot
came from an even slightly different direction from the other shots.
Regarding Hugh Aynesworth, Mr. Speer has also quoted excerpts from what
he says are some of the earliest articles by Aynesworth. I am being
totally honest in making it plain that I am not quoting from the
complete originals, but from Pat Speer's excerpts.

On this page,

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5%3Athejigsawpuzzle

the first mention of Aynesworth is in the context of quotes from a
Dallas Morning News article said to be from "early 1964." Here is what
Mr. Speer quoted in its entirety:

**********

"I stopped at the corner of Houston and Main. As I looked toward the
Texas School Book Depository Building--never dreaming that this would
become a legend, only interested in the Hertz clock it held high atop
its roof--I spotted a man, I thought, named Maurice Harrell, an
assistant district Attorney. I thought I'd walk over and say hello. He
was standing out from the crowd at Elm and Houston. By the time I got
there, he was gone, moved to another vantage point. Harrell told me
later he was standing a block away at the time and that it probably
wasn't him I saw. So, by at least a dozen strange quirks of fate, I
found myself only a stone's throw away from where a crazed gunman fired
three shots really heard 'round the world...Then came the first shot. I
looked instinctively at one of the motorcycles to see if it was an
exhaust. A woman near screamed. I saw a face look into mine with a lost
look, much as mine must have been. Then another shot. This was a shot I
knew. I recall darting my eyes to the President's open limousine, now
slipping down Elm St. to the viaduct. The president jerked his head. I
could not tell if he were looking to see what the noise was, but I
recall thinking he was only jerking his head to wave at the people on
the other side of the grassy slope. His hair seemed to jump up. Later I
understood why. Some of the vehicles in the caravan seemed to come to
almost a complete stop. Others crept along. I could not tell who was in
charge. Then a third shot, clearer now, for I somehow almost expected
it."

**********

I do not see Aynesworth there saying that he believed the shots had come
from multiple directions, not even initially. I also do not see him
saying anything about any individual shot sounding as if it was louder
or softer, or closer or farther, than any other individual shot. Right
below this Mr. Speer cites the 1976 Texas Monthly article that I have
already cited above. Several more sources are referenced below that.
Mr. Speer then ends his discussion of Aynesworth with this astonishing
pronouncement:

"First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together, with the last
shot after the head shot."

Mr. Speer appears not to have done his research very well, because
Aynesworth was not in a position to see anyone in the limousine being
hit as the shots were fired, and thus he cannot be reasonably used to
support the idea that the last shot was fired after the head shot, nor
can Aynesworth reasonably be used to support any exact timing for when
the first shot was fired. But more importantly for the subject of
discussion in this thread, none of Mr. Speer's quotations of Aynesworth
contain the most meager suggestion imaginable of Aynesworth ever
believing that there were multiple shooters in Dealey Plaza.

Finally, as I mentioned above, Mr. Aynesworth was interviewed by Larry
Sneed for "No More Silence," a book I have owned for years and which is
sitting beside me now in the midst of typing this present article. In
my hardback copy the Aynesworth interview begins on page 21 and ends on
page 40. Nowhere in the entire interview do I see Aynesworth saying
that he ever, even briefly, believed there were multiple shooters in
Dealey Plaza. If I am, er, "wrong" about this, someone, anyone can post
the page number of the imaginary page in this book where Aynesworth is,
uh, "quoted verbatim saying" that once upon a time he did, at least
briefly, believe in multiple shooters in Dealey Plaza that day. He
talks about the gunfire on p.22, but does not say it came from multiple
directions. In fact, the last paragraph on that page is the *only*
passage in the entire interview in which he says anything specifically
about the gunfire *at* *all*. Here is that paragraph in its entirety:

"The first shot I wasn't sure was a shot. I thought it might have been
a backfire from one of the motorcycles since there were several in the
vicinity. When you hear one, you listen more closely, and when I heard
a second and then a third very clearly, there was no doubt in my mind
that they were shots and that they were from a rifle. I didn't know a
whole lot about guns, but I knew that it wasn't a pistol. At one time I
thought that one was fired closer to another in time sequence, but I
can't recall that anymore."

So much for Mr. Marsh's provably-false claim that I only quote WC
documents. For this witness I have not quoted even *one* WC document.

And I'm nowhere even remotely close to being done quoting witnesses yet,
and plenty more of the sources to come will be independent of the WC.

Plenty of them already have been earlier in this thread, which Mr. Marsh
apparently is ignoring. ;-)

[John Reagor King]

It has now been two weeks since I started this thread, and I am still
waiting and waiting and waiting for just someone, just anyone, to quote,
for the first time ever in *this* thread, a Dealey Plaza witness who said
that the shots came from multiple directions and/or that any individual
shot sounded louder and/or closer, or farther, than any other individual
shot. Since no one has come through yet, I will just continue to quote
the tremendously larger number of witnesses who prove every claim I made
in my first article in this thread to be absolutely true beyond all
reasonable doubt.

Witness number fourteen:

Our next witness is one of the most famous (or infamous, if one prefers)
witnesses in this entire case, Howard Brennan. It was apparently from his
description of the shooter only minutes after the assassination that an
alert went out over the Dallas Police radio for a suspect matching that
description, and as will be seen below, Brennan himself gave essentially
the same description in his same-day affidavit. Many commentators have
noted his apparent waffling later on whether or not he could identify
Oswald as the assassin he had seen. Be that as it may, my main purpose
here is simply to quote what he said about the gunfire. I now give what
he said in his affidavit in its entirety:

**********

I am presently employed by the Wallace and Beard Construction Company as
a Steam fitter and have been so employed for about the past 7 weeks. I
am working on a pipe line in the Katy Railroad yards at the West end of
Pacific Street near the railroad tracks. We had knocked off for lunch
and I had dinner at the cafeteria at Record and Main Street and had come
back to see the President of the United States. I was sitting on a ledge
or wall near the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street near the
red light pole. I was facing in a northerly direction looking across the
street from where I was sitting. I take this building across the street
to be about 7 stories anyway in the east endof [sic] the building and
the second row of windows from the top I saw a man in this window. I had
seen him before the President's car arrived. He was just sitting up
there looking down apparently waiting for the same thing I was to see
the President. I did not notice anything unusual about this man. He was
a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would
weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but
definately [sic] not a suit. I proceeded to watch the President's car as
it turned left at the corner where I was and about 50 yards from the
intersection of Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the
President's back was in line with the last windows I have previously
described I heard what I thought was a back fire. It run [sic] in my
mind that it might be someone throwing firecrackers out the window of
the red brick building and I looked up at the building. I then saw this
man I have described in the window and he was taking aim with a high
powered rifle. I could see all of the barrel of the gun. I do not know
if it had a scope on it or not. I was looking at the man in this windows
at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his
side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry.
I could see this man from about his belt up. There was nothing unusual
about him at all in appearance. I believe that I could identify this man
if I ever saw him again.

**********

To say that it is ?obvious? that Brennan thought that this man was the
only person who fired at the motorcade is an understatement.

Still on the same day of the assassination, Brennan was interviewed by
the FBI, and this is the entirety of the portion of the report in which
anything at all is said about the gunfire:

**********

He said the automobile [Presidential limousine] had passed down Elm
Street (going in a westerly direction) approximately 30 yard s from the
point where he (Brennan) was seated when he heard a loud report which he
first thought to be the "backfire" of an automobile. He said he hoes not
distinctly remember a second shot but he remembers "more than one
noise," as if someone was shooting fire crackers, and consequently he
believes there must have been a second shot before he looked in the
direction of the Texas School Book Depository building. Upon hearing the
report, or reports, he looked across the street to the Texas School book
Depository building, where he saw a man in a window on the sixth floor
near the Southeast corner of the building. The man he observed in the
window had what appeared to be a "heavy" rifle in his hands. He could
not tell whether or not this rifle had a telescopic sight, as the rifle
was protruding only about half its length outside the window. He was
positive that after he had observed this man in the window, he saw this
person take "deliberate aim" and fire a shot. He then observed this
person take the rifle from his shoulder and hold it by the barrel of the
rifle, as if he were resting the but of the rifle on the floor. He said
this individual observed the scene on the street below, momentarily, and
then stepped back from the window. He said the rifle was pointed in the
direction of the President?s car when he saw it fired. He advised there
was nothing to obstruct his line of vision between the place where he
was seated and the window on the sixth floor of the Texas School book
Depository building where he saw the man with the rifle. He estimated
distance between the point where he was seated and the window from which
the shots were fired to be approximately 90 yards.

**********

The FBI interviewed Brennan again on December 17, 1963, but in this
report nothing specifically is said about the gunfire; the gist of it
instead is his explanation for initially not identifying Oswald in a
lineup as the person he had seen firing the shots.

The FBI interviewed him yet *again* on January 7, 1964 (this report is
reproduced in CE 2006), and I quote here the one and only paragraph in
the entire document in which anything at all is specifically said about
the gunfire itself:

**********

Mr. BRENNAN advised that on November 22, 1963, after finishing lunch at
about 12:18 PM, he sat on a retainer wall directly across from the Texas
School Book Depository (TSBD) building, on Elm Street. While he was
sitting there, he looked up at the TSBD building and noticed that there
was a man standing in the sixth floor window; however, at this time,
this man did not have a rifle. He said he then turned around and noticed
that the man had left the window. Then he turned his head back toward
the South where the Presidential motorcade would come. Approximately ten
minutes after sitting down on this retaining wall, the Presidential
motorcade turned onto Houston Street, and he was able to see President
KENNEDY and his wife pass approximately thirty yards west on Elm from
where he was seated. The car passed out of sight and shortly thereafter,
he heard one shot, which he first believed to have been a firecracker,
and he immediately looked toward the TSBD building and saw a man on the
sixth floor in the same window, near the southeast corner of the
building, and noticed that this man took deliberate aim and shot the
rifle again. When he saw the man shoot the rifle this time, he realized
it was the same man that he had seen standing in the window a few
minutes before.

**********

I next quote from what, as far as I know, is the lengthiest and most
detailed account Mr. Brennan ever gave in his entire life about the
assassination under any circumstances in any venue, such as testimony,
affidavit, filmed interview, magazine or newspaper interview, book,
etc., with the possible exception of his own book, co-written with J.
Edward Cherryholmes, "Eyewitness to History: The Kennedy Assassination:
As Seen by Howard Brennan." Just as with so many of the other
witnesses, this will once again be testimony before the Warren
Commission. His testimony of March 24, 1964, is among the longest of
all the 552 witnesses, but as always before, I will try to quote every
passage in which anything at all is said about the gunfire itself, no
matter what it was, but any reader can quite easily confirm by looking
at the complete testimony itself whether or not I have accidentally left
out anything of relevance to this issue, and any poster here is welcome
to quote from anything that I missed:

**********

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what
happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people
in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the
Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the
Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in
different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor
which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are
you referring to there?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular
window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of
times.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe
this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at
the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is
more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that
you believe you saw the man.
All right.
And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.
All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with
the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you
said, at least two times come back and forth.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you
can recollect?
Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.
There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window
that I noticed.
There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor,
colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you
believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that
with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?
Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.
Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?
Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during
that afternoon.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance
of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner
at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad
underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really
couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I
heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made
me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book
Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for
his last shot.
Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about
now?
Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.
Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him
this last time?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting
against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder,
holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his
last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from
the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused
for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and
then he disappeared.
And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the
right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher
on the Houston side.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that
window?
Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe,
some type of a high-powered rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on
it?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether
it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely
did not, or don't you know?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do
you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you
saw--standing or sitting?
Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the
window sill leaning out.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of
the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he
sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy
getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips
up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his
belt up.
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.
Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything
else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right
now?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else
except--
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot--
Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you
heard the first noise and the last noise?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that
there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear
the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a
backfire, and subconsciously must have heard a second shot, but I do not
recall it. I could not swear to it.

..........

Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first
thought was what?
Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker.
Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the
first and last?
Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of
a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing
firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the
second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim
for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive
recollection of two shots.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what
was either the second or the third shot?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The
first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and
dear, with no echo on my part.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or
the flash?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.
Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as
to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you
see what he was firing at?
Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But
immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be,
and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the
President or his car at that time. And I still don't know what was
obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been
able to see it. I could not see it.

**********

In the first, and very lengthy passage I quoted above, in which Mr.
Brennan was being questioned by David Belin, he was given CE 477, asked
to circle the window in which he saw this sniper, and also to label it
?A.? One can easily find this same document on multiple websites today,
and plainly see that the window he circled and labeled ?A? is indeed the
easternmost or rightmost window of the sixth floor of the Depository,
the very window from which the ?official version? of the assassination
contends that all the shots were fired from. He was then asked to
circle a window on the floor below where he had seen ?some Negro people?
and label this as ?B? and as can easily be seen he circled the second
window from the right on the fifth floor, although photographs taken
within seconds of the shooting, such as one by Tom Dillard, actually
show them in the easternmost or rightmost window on the fifth floor. In
the second and shorter passage I quoted above, in which Brennan was now
being questioned by John McCloy, one of the Commissioners, there is
simply a restatement and clarification of what Brennan saw and heard
regarding the gunfire and the rifle itself.

But whatever the case may or may not be regarding Brennan?s credibility,
or lack of it, these documents relating to him are quite clear that he
was saying that the shots were all fired only from that window, and only
with that rifle. He certainly did not make even the most oblique
suggestion imaginable that shots were fired from more than one rifle,
and/or from more than one location, and/or from different distances from
his location.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/10/2012 9:39 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> It has now been two weeks since I started this thread, and I am still
> waiting and waiting and waiting for just someone, just anyone, to quote,
> for the first time ever in *this* thread, a Dealey Plaza witness who said
> that the shots came from multiple directions and/or that any individual
> shot sounded louder and/or closer, or farther, than any other individual
> shot. Since no one has come through yet, I will just continue to quote
> the tremendously larger number of witnesses who prove every claim I made
> in my first article in this thread to be absolutely true beyond all
> reasonable doubt.
>

No need for us to do it when you do it for us. Thanks.

[John Reagor King]

It has now been fifteen days since I started this thread, and still not
one poster in this thread has even tried to quote, or even named without
quoting, a single Dealey Plaza witness who said the shots came from
multiple directions. Nor has anyone in this thread quoted, or even named
without quoting, a single witness who said that any individual shot

sounded louder and/or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot.

I'm at a loss to understand what is taking everyone so long to do this.
It has always been my impression that many posters in this newsgroup
believe in multiple shooters. I would have thought that they would be
rushing forward to quote as many witnesses as they could to support their
belief in multiple shooters. On several different days recently in other
threads I even repeatedly *named* one such witness, and yesterday I
*quoted* him saying very specifically that the shots *did* come from
multiple directions. I also gave a link to two interviews with him on
Youtube yesterday, in one of which he *also* said that one of the *four*
shots, the third one to be precise, was most definitely softer in volume
than the others.

Jeez, what is taking all of you so long to quote him here in this thread?
I'll even give you another clue: his initials are S.M.H. Know who I'm
talking about now? Now at least a dozen of you believers in multiple
shooters can rush forward and quote your star witness here. Surely I will
not have to finally break down and quote him myself here, after weeks and
weeks and weeks of waiting and waiting and waiting for just somebody, just
anybody, to quote him before I do?

I'll give you another clue: there are a couple of witnesses or so whose
last name(s) begin(s) with W. In their earliest statements they did not
say the shots came from multiple directions. However, decades later, in a
filmed interview which you ought to be able to find online (I found it
ages ago) one or two or whatever of them quite specifically say that one
of the shots came from a different direction from the others. Surely now
someone, anyone, will come forward to quote this in this thread?

Somebody?

Anybody?

Now let's look again at one of the things I said in my first article in
this thread, which was addressed to everyone in this newsgroup, not just
to the person whose name appears in the Subject:

**********

For every witness you quote who named multiple directions for the sounds
of the gunfire, I will quote at least nine witnesses who named only one
direction for all of the sounds of gunfire. Notice carefully that my use
of the phrase "at least" indicates that in some cases I may quote more
than nine. And if I'm able to quote nine or more who named only one
direction, for every one that you quote who named multiple directions,
then I will indeed be quoting more than 90%, and you will indeed be
quoting less than 10%. The same challenge is extended for every one you
quote who specifically said that any individual shot sounded louder and/or
closer than any other individual shot: for every one you quote, I will

quote nine or more who said no such thing.

**********

I am today about to quote my fifteenth witness. 10% of 15 = 1.5. For you
to quote more than 10% of the number of witnesses I've quoted so far, you
have to quote at least two who specifically said that the shots sounded as
if they came from multiple directions, and/or at least two who
specifically said that any individual shot sounded as if it was louder
and/or closer, or softer and/or farther away, than any other individual
shot. Remember also that you have to give a valid original source, just
like I am doing with every witness I quote, so that the rest of us can
independently confirm beyond your word that what you quote really is
documented as what the witness said.

Do also keep in mind that I am quoting one witness per day who named one
direction for all of the gunfire, and who said nothing about any shot
coming from a different distance than the others. This means that five
days from now I will be quoting my twentieth witness. Fifteen days from
now I'll be quoting my thirtieth witness. Twenty-five days from now I'll
be quoting my fortieth witness, and so forth. 10% of 40 = 4. Will we
finally by then have at least four witnesses quoted who said the shots
came from multiple directions and/or multiple distances? The way things
have gone so far I'm not confident that we will.

Any further replies by anyone in this thread saying that I am even
slightly wrong, *without* quoting witnesses, will be interpreted by me as
a tacit admission that every one of my claims are correct. I very much
doubt that I will be the only reader of this newsgroup who will come to a
similar conclusion, and probably even a few CTs will come to that
conclusion as well.

After fifteen days I am becoming more confident than ever that the reason
none of you believers in multiple shooters are coming forward to quote
witnesses is that privately you know that every single claim I made in my
original article in this thread is absolutely correct beyond all possible
doubt, and you are simply afraid to openly admit it. Two posters in this
thread only have simply said I am wrong, period, without producing the
most meager shred of credible evidence imaginable to support their claim.
A third poster didn't exactly say that I'm wrong, but made a statement
which seems to imply that a fair number of witnesses thought the final
shot came from a different direction from the others. However, that
poster did not name or quote a single witness in this thread to support
such an idea.

Oh well, on we go.

Witness number fifteen:

Our next witness is Officer Earle Brown of the Dallas Police Department.
At the time of the assassination he was stationed on the ?railroad
overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road,? about one-hundred yards
from where the same tracks go over Commerce, Main, and Elm streets, i.e.
the Triple Underpass. In his Warren Commission testimony of April 7,
1964, he had this to say about the gunfire:

**********

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston
Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did It come to a. complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would
you like me to tell you?
Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of
pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did
because I saw them flying up - must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?
Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the - between us and the, this over
pass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's
really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were
and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so - at
least it smelled like It to me.
Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas
---
Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?
Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?
Mr. BROWN. I Just don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?
Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that
building because actually it seemed to come from there.
Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because
they just seemed to all take off.
Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way
between - no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, whet
they call the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Yea.
Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.

**********

Officer Brown also submitted a brief statement dated July 15, 1964,
reproduced in CE 1358, and I quote the final two sentences, which is the
only passage in the entire document in which anything at all is said
about the gunfire:

**********

I heard the shots and they seemed like they were coming high from the
direction of the Book Depository Building. There was a terrific echo.

**********

So it is quite obvious from both of these documents that he thought all
the shots had come from the direction of the Depository, and furthermore
thought they were fired from an elevation that was ?high,? not all that
close to ground level, nor is there any indication of anything like any
difference in distance and/or volume for each of the shots.

[John Reagor King]

I just received a call last night and will have to go out of town
unexpectedly for the weekend, so this will be the only article I post
today. It will not be until Monday or Tuesday that I will be posting here
again.

I still do not see anyone in this thread quoting any witness who said that
the shots came from multiple directions and/or multiple distances, so
today I will quote my sixteenth witness who said all the shots came from
the same direction and did not mention any difference in volume and/or
distance.

Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell was riding in the motorcade a few cars behind
the Presidential limousine, and also behind the Vice President's
limousine. In his testimony before the Commission on July 13, 1964, he

had this to say about the gunfire:

**********

Mr. HUBERT - When did you observe anything at all relative to the
shooting of the President?
Mr. CABELL - Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm,
making the left turn, when the first shot rang out.
Mr. HUBERT - Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir?
Mr. CABELL - I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot",
and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker"
when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer pause
between the first and second shots than there was between the second and
third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There was no
mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a
high-powered rifle.
Mr. HUBERT - Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it
was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person
who knows something about it?
Mr. CABELL - I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military
shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles.
Mr. HUBERT - Were you in the armed services during the war?
Mr. CABELL - No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to
their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of
the building known as the School Book Depository.
Mr. HUBERT - That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you
thought the sound came?
Mr. CABELL - Right.
Mr. HUBERT - Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the
first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the
second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio?
Mr. CABELL - Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10
seconds elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than 5
seconds having elapsed until the third one.
Mr. HUBERT - Two to one ratio?
Mr. CABELL - Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned,
as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds
because they were not counted.
Mr. HUBERT - Now when you became conscious that these were shots and
that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas
School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building?
Mr. CABELL - My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding
in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts.
Mr. HUBERT - Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver?
Mr. CABELL - I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a
convertible in which we were riding with the top down.
Mr. HUBERT - So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from
behind?
Mr. CABELL - From behind.
Mr. HUBERT - Did you turn in the direction of the shots?
Mr. CABELL - I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential
car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves
on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in
the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the
building itself.
Mr. HUBERT - You did not see anybody in any of the windows?
Mr. CABELL - No.
Mr. HUBERT - Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark to
you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that
remark was made immediately after the first shot?
Mr. CABELL - Just immediately; yes.
Mr. HUBERT - And before the second and third, is that right?
Mr. CABELL - And really before I could get my answer out--I think it was
motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to
say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out.

**********

So it is quite clear that Mayor Cabell said that all the shots came from
the direction of the Depository, and there is no mention whatsoever in the
entire testimony of any shot being at all different in volume or
perception of distance. He also gave a two to one ratio for the spacing
of the shots, which was also stated by a number of other witnesses as
well.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/11/2012 10:40 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> It has now been fifteen days since I started this thread, and still not
> one poster in this thread has even tried to quote, or even named without
> quoting, a single Dealey Plaza witness who said the shots came from
> multiple directions. Nor has anyone in this thread quoted, or even named
> without quoting, a single witness who said that any individual shot
> sounded louder and/or closer, or farther, than any other individual shot.
>
> I'm at a loss to understand what is taking everyone so long to do this.

I'm at a loss to understand why you can't read the old threads.

[John Reagor King]

I am back home now, and I see that over the weekend there have still been
no posts in this thread in which anyone has quoted any witness who said
the shots came from multiple directions, and/or said that the shots came
from different distances. So I will continue to quote witnesses who said
that all the shots came from a single direction, and said nothing at all
about any individual shot sounding louder and/or closer than any other
individual shot. I saw only one post over the weekend in which no such
witness was even named, much less quoted, saying something about such
witnesses having been cited in other threads. But this of course ignores
the fact that I myself have plainly admitted several times that a few such
witnesses have been cited in other threads. But not one in *this* thread.
I have been going mostly in alphabetical order, primarily using the
Galanor list, though I have already inserted one glaring omission that is
not on that list. On Friday I reached the letter C and still have not
reached the very first witness on the list who said the shots came from
multiple directions, or the very first who said they came from multiple
distances. It is becoming more and more obvious that all the claims I
made in my original article are absolutely correct beyond all reasonable
doubt.

Witness number seventeen:

This is Mrs. Earle Cabell, wife of the Mayor of Dallas whom I quoted this
past Friday, who of course was riding with her husband in the motorcade.
In her WC testimony on July 13, 1964 (the same day her husband testified)
she had this to say about the gunfire:

**********

Mr. CABELL. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School
Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us.
Congressman Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned the
same way. I was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each
other, The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang
out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the
building. I was directly facing it.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was still really on Houston?
Mr. CABELL. No; we were making the turn.
Mr. HUBERT. Just on the turn?
Mr. CABELL. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you
see.
Mr. HUBERT. Since you were actually turned toward Representative Roberts
on your right?
Mr. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you were facing----
Mr. CABELL. The building.
Mr. HUBERT. The Texas Depository Building?
Mr. CABELL. I was actually facing it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary
nature, or heard?
Mr. CABELL. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I
jerked my head up.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?
Mr. CABELL. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, and
I just jerked my head up.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you see?
Mr. CABELL. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those
windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos.
Mr. HUBERT. In which window did you see the projection?
Mr. CABELL. I have always been a little confused about that, but I think
it was the first window.
Mr. HUBERT. On what floor?
Mr. CABELL. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which
window. There was some confusion in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say there were double windows. Is the confusion
about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or
second window of the double windows?
Mr. CABELL. The first or second window of the first group of double
windows.
Mr. HUBERT. What was this projection?
Mr. CABELL. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the
projection.
Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or something
mechanical?
Mr. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or a
human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked my
head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to say
to Earle, "Earle, it is a shot", and before I got the words out, just as
I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a "the second
two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion
in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware
that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation of
this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your
attention from that window?
Mr. CABELL. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that window
when the second and third shots were fired?
Mr. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter?
Mr. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the
people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground
and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself
on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell
of gunpowder?
Mr. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mr. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade
was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is
a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mr. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mr. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mr. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the
hospital?
Mr. CABELL. Yes.

**********

She said she heard a shot, jerked her head up as if the sound came from
above, and saw a "projection" sticking out of an upper window in the
TSBD. She said she was no longer looking at it when the second and
third shots were fired. But there is no mention anywhere in her
testimony, even in the parts I did not quote (which anyone can easily
confirm) of any shots coming from a different direction than the others,
or of any shot sounding louder and/or closer, or farther than the others.

[John Reagor King]

In article <3e559123-9ea5-404d...@googlegroups.com>,
"pjsp...@AOL.COM" <pjsp...@aol.com> wrote:

> FWIW, Chapters 5 thru 9 at patspeer.com is far and way the largest
> collection of witness statements yet assembled. I don't specifically break
> them down by the perceived direction of the shots, except briefly in the
> last chapter, where I note that the vast majority of witnesses standing in
> front of the TSBD thought the last shot came from west of their location.

As I noted in my reply to Mr. Speer two weeks ago (and to which he,
interestingly, has still not replied as of today), his last sentence above
seems to imply that these witnesses said that *only* the last shot came
from west of their location. But I have been looking through those very
chapters on his website day after day after day since then, and I still
have not found a single quote of any witness saying that only the last
shot came from that direction. I will be discussing some of the witnesses
he quotes, which are absent from the Galanor list, below.

It has now been 21 days or 3 weeks since I started this thread, and still
no one in this thread has quoted a single witness saying that the shots in
Dealey Plaza came from multiple directions, and/or said that any
individual shot sounded different in volume and/or distance than any other
individual shot. This is despite the fact that I myself have quoted at
least one witness in other threads saying *both* things, and have even
given his initials in this thread. I do so again now:

S.M.H.

Would it help you multi-gunman believers if I gave his nickname too?

I've also dropped another hint in this thread before, and do so again
today. There are "a number" of witnesses whose last name(s) begin(s) with
the letter W. In "their" earliest statements they said nothing about the
shots being fired from multiple locations. However, decades later, "they"
did begin to say exactly that. What on earth is taking you people so
absurdly long to *quote* S.M.H. and the W.(s) here in this thread? I've
known about all of them for years (plural). Remember, all you have to do
to prove my claims in my original article wrong is to quote more than one
multi-direction and/or multi-distance witness for every nine
single-direction and single-distance witness that I quote. But I've
already quoted seventeen of them, and I'm about to quote more in this
article, so now the only possible way to prove me wrong is to quote at
least two witnesses on the other side.

And of course I'm nowhere even remotely close to being done quoting my
witnesses. ;-)

Another glaring omission from Galanor's list is Pierce Allman, who worked
for WFAA radio in Dallas at the time of the assassination. A report he
made over the radio on the day of the event can be heard here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nusxv0VTsAg

Listen carefully and you'll find that Allman did not exactly say that he
himself perceived the sounds of the shots as coming from any particular
direction or directions, but instead was relying on what witnesses told
him. At one point he said that there was a "consensus" that the shots had
come from a building, although almost immediately after this he made
reference to a "Mr. Newman" (almost certainly Bill Newman) saying that the
shots, plural, had all come from the knoll. He also said that he, like
other "foolish people," went toward the knoll first. Mr. Speer quotes a
good deal of this and more here:

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Here is one of those quotes:

"Yes, I think that this was the consensus at the time, although now I
notice Mr. Newman says he felt the shots were fired from a knoll. I
think the logical place to have fired them would have been from the
building and when I left a few minutes ago, they were still searching?"

The one and only other quote Mr. Speer gives on the entire page of
Allman making any statement at all, no matter what it was, regarding the
direction(s) of the gunfire, is from what Mr. Speer says is a November,
1998 article in Texas Monthly:

"There were three shots. And yes, I believe the three shots were from a
single place."

So, even according to Mr. Speer, Pierce Allman is most certainly not a
multi-direction witness, as Mr. Speer has quoted Allman verbatim saying
that all the shots came from a single place. And nowhere on the entire
page, as everyone can easily verify independently of my word, does Mr.
Speer quote Allman as saying anything about any difference in volume
and/or distance with any of the shots.

On the same webpage Mr. Speer cites three more witnesses who also do not
appear in Galanor's list:

'Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, and Ann Donaldson were Woodward?s
companions on November 22, 1963. (12-7-63 FBI report, CD7 p.19) ?Ann
Donaldson?Margaret Brown?and Miss Aurelio Alonzo?were interviewed
December 6, 1963?All furnished the same information as that previously
furnished by Mary Elizabeth Woodward.?'

But I myself have recently quoted Woodward verbatim in another thread
from her earliest article about the assassination in the Dallas Morning
News, and she thought *all* the shots came from precisely the same
direction: behind her and a little to the right. Given that she and her
friends were standing on the north side of Elm a bit west of the
Depository, this can be taken to mean either the concrete pergola behind
them or perhaps the very eastern end of the knoll fence. Since right
above this Mr. Speer has quoted several different statements by Woodward
over the years, including the same newspaper article I cited, in which
she continued to give no other direction for her initial impression of
behind and to the right, again, according to Mr. Speer himself, none of
these women can be counted as multi-direction witnesses.

With this article I am now up to twenty-one single-direction witnesses
in this thread. All posters combined in this thread still have quoted
or cited zero multi-direction witnesses.

[John Reagor King]

It has now been 22 days since I started this thread, and still no one in
this thread has quoted, or even named without quoting, a single Dealey
Plaza witness who said the shots came from multiple directions, and/or

said that any individual shot sounded as if it came from closer or farther

away than any other shot, even though I have given the initials of one
such witness repeatedly in this thread, and the last initial of yet
another. More and more this is looking like tacit agreement from all
multiple-shooter believers in this newsgroup that every claim I made in my
first article in this thread is entirely correct. Even the two posters in
this thread who claimed me to be wrong have still failed to even make the
most meager attempt imaginable to *prove* me to be wrong, as they too have
not quoted or even named a single witness in this thread which disputes my
claims in the slightest, and they would of course have to cite multiple
witnesses by now to even have a chance of it. Apparently they also have
come to agree that I am entirely correct, and are simply unwilling to
admit it in this newsgroup.

Oh well, I'll just keep on keepin' on. ;-)

Witness #22:

Another witness Pat Speer has given on his site who is not on Galanor's
list is Thomas Atkins. The section on him is part of Mr. Speer's
discussion of several members of the press who were riding together in a
"pool" car in the motorcade:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

Here is the first quotation of Atkins on the page:

**********

Thomas Atkins?sat on the right side of the rear seat. (As quoted in the
tabloid Midnight, 3-1-77)??The car I was in had just made the little right
turn. I was facing the Texas School Book Depository and Kennedy's car had
just made the left turn heading toward the freeway entrance. Although I
did not look up at the building, I could hear everything quite clearly.
The shots came from below and off to the right side from where I was. I
never thought the shots came from above. They did not sound like shots
coming from anything higher than street level. They all sounded similar to
me and did not seem to be coming from different points around the plaza.
At first I thought it was a firecracker going off and I thought that
whoever threw that thing at the motorcade is going to be in a heck of a
lot of trouble with the Secret Service. Then when I heard the second shot,
I realized it was gunfire. The third shot came very quickly after that, in
less than two seconds, I'm sure. In thinking about it later, I got the
distinct impression that it was almost like a little kid playing cowboys
and Indians, the sounds came so close together. That is, between the
second and third shots. It was bang...bang, bang. Like kids playing.
That's exactly how I remember it.?

**********

Notice carefully that Atkins said that the shots, plural, as in all of
them, sounded as if they came from below and off to the right side. He
gave no indication of any shot coming from any other direction. And
nothing whatsoever is said of any shot sounding louder, or closer, or
farther away, than any other shot. Mr. Speer then immediately following
this produces another quote of Atkins from "Pictures of the Pain," but
there nothing is said about which direction the gunfire sounded as if it
came from, and again there is no mention whatsoever of any difference in
perceived volume and/or distance.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/18/2012 4:27 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> It has now been 22 days since I started this thread, and still no one in
> this thread has quoted, or even named without quoting, a single Dealey

Now you are getting so desperate that you tripped over your own feet by
adding today the fiction, "or even named without quoting."
I gave the four names.

[John Reagor King]

In article <50809f3d$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 10/18/2012 4:27 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> > It has now been 22 days since I started this thread, and still no one in
> > this thread has quoted, or even named without quoting, a single Dealey
>
> Now you are getting so desperate that you tripped over your own feet by
> adding today the fiction, "or even named without quoting."
> I gave the four names.

I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has not named even *one* witness
in *this* thread, not another thread, in *this* thread, who specifically
said that the shots sounded as if they came from multiple directions,
and/or said that any individual shot sounded as if was different in volume
and/or distance from any other individual shot. I have also said several
times in *this* thread that I am already *aware* that a very *few* such
witnesses have been named in *other* threads. And of course everyone can
plainly see that neither Mr. Marsh nor any other poster in *this* thread,
not *another* thread, but *this* thread, has yet for the past 23 days
*quoted* even *one* Dealey Plaza witness who said either or both of those
things, along with given an *original* and *valid* source. Mr. Marsh,
naturally, will be helplessly unable to provide a single Message-ID and/or
archive URL for any article in *this* thread in which he gave the *name*,
even *without* quoting, of a single witness who said the shots came from
multiple directions and/or multiple distances, since no such article was
ever posted by him prior to yesterday in *this* thread.

So as I have always done in *this* thread, I will just continue, and
continue, and continue to quote from the sources witnesses who gave only
one direction for *all* of the gunfire, and who said nothing about any
individual shot being even slightly different in terms of volume and/or
distance.

I again make note of how Pat Speer seemed to imply, in his only article in
*this* thread thus far, that a substantial number of witnesses said that
*only* the last shot came from a different direction from the others.
Among the witnesses Mr. Speer referenced on his website who does not
appear on Galanor's list is Ann Atterberry. But there Mr. Speer only
quotes one sentence in which she supposedly said anything at all, no
matter what it was, about the direction and/or distance of the gunfire,
and it is not actually a quote of Atterberry herself, but instead is a
paraphrasing of what she said by someone else who supposedly interviewed
her:

"She also described that one of the shots most definitely came from her
right. (she was standing on the sidewalk street curb between the
depository and the GK picket fence)."

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

The problem here, of course, is that there is nothing here that
*specifically* says that any of the shots came from a *different*
direction.

Another witness given by Mr. Speer who is absent from Galanor's list is
Robert Baskin:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

But as everyone can see there, Mr. Speer has not provided any quote of Mr.
Baskin making any specific claim regarding what direction or directions he
thought the sounds came from, and there is certainly nothing about him
claiming any difference in volume and/or distance.

On the same page Mr. Speer gives a brief quote from Lindley Beckworth,
also absent from Galanor's list, but as everyone can easily see on Mr.
Speer's page, nothing is attributed to Beckworth that even has anything at
all to do specifically with the sounds of the gunfire.

Mr. Speer also quotes Jack Bell, yet another witness absent from Galanor's
list, from several different sources on the same page as above. Here,
however, Mr. Bell is quoted *twice* as saying that ALL the shots came from
a single direction:

"Suddenly the procession, which had halted, shot forward again...As my eye
swept the buildings to the right, where the shots--if they really were
shots, and it seemed unbelievable--might have come, I saw no significant
sign of activity."

"The sounds of the three shots had come from above and to the right of
us."

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/19/2012 10:11 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> In article <50809f3d$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/2012 4:27 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
>>> It has now been 22 days since I started this thread, and still no one in
>>> this thread has quoted, or even named without quoting, a single Dealey
>>
>> Now you are getting so desperate that you tripped over your own feet by
>> adding today the fiction, "or even named without quoting."
>> I gave the four names.
>
> I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has not named even *one* witness
> in *this* thread, not another thread, in *this* thread, who specifically
> said that the shots sounded as if they came from multiple directions,

I named 4 witnesses but you want to keep playing your kindergartener games.

> and/or said that any individual shot sounded as if was different in volume
> and/or distance from any other individual shot. I have also said several
> times in *this* thread that I am already *aware* that a very *few* such
> witnesses have been named in *other* threads. And of course everyone can
> plainly see that neither Mr. Marsh nor any other poster in *this* thread,
> not *another* thread, but *this* thread, has yet for the past 23 days
> *quoted* even *one* Dealey Plaza witness who said either or both of those
> things, along with given an *original* and *valid* source. Mr. Marsh,
> naturally, will be helplessly unable to provide a single Message-ID and/or
> archive URL for any article in *this* thread in which he gave the *name*,
> even *without* quoting, of a single witness who said the shots came from
> multiple directions and/or multiple distances, since no such article was
> ever posted by him prior to yesterday in *this* thread.
>
> So as I have always done in *this* thread, I will just continue, and

You know what you can do with your *this* thread.

[John Reagor King]

In article <50823295$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 10/19/2012 10:11 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> > In article <50809f3d$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> > Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/18/2012 4:27 PM, John Reagor King wrote:
> >>> It has now been 22 days since I started this thread, and still no one in
> >>> this thread has quoted, or even named without quoting, a single Dealey
> >>
> >> Now you are getting so desperate that you tripped over your own feet by
> >> adding today the fiction, "or even named without quoting."
> >> I gave the four names.
> >
> > I call everyone to notice that Mr. Marsh has not named even *one* witness
> > in *this* thread, not another thread, in *this* thread, who specifically
> > said that the shots sounded as if they came from multiple directions,
>
> I named 4 witnesses but you want to keep playing your kindergartener games.

Ah yes, my apologies. Mr. Marsh did indeed "name" four witnesses in his
very first article in this thread on September 26, which I had forgotten
about:

Sam Holland
Paul Landis
A.J. Millican
Dave Powers

Sadly, however, he did not *quote* any of them in any article in *this*
thread. Let us look again at what my original challenge was in my first
article which began this thread:

"The only possible way to prove me wrong on any of this, the only
*possible* way, is to quote *more* than 10% of these witnesses, along
with the original source of the quote so that we can all independently
verify beyond your word that it really is an accurate quotation,
specifically naming multiple directions for the gunfire in a *single*
statement from a *single* original source. And regarding my other
claim, that less than 10% specifically said that any individual shot
sounded louder and/or closer than the others, the same thing would have
to be done."

Without *quoting* these witnesses, Mr. Marsh in *this* thread is failing
to *prove* that these witnesses said the shots sounded as if they came
from multiple directions and/or multiple distances. So I will now do
what he should have done.

S.M. "Skinny" Holland. Yes, yes, he's the one I've for weeks been
begging all you believers in multiple shooters to *quote*. Sadly, not
even one of you has done so, not even Mr. Marsh, not in *this* thread.
So I'll do your work for you.

At the time of the assassination, Mr. Holland was one of several
railroad workers standing on the railroad bridge known as the Triple
Underpass which runs over all three streets in Dealey Plaza, and in fact
Mr. Holland at the time of the shooting was standing almost directly
over the center of Elm Street, so that the limousine passed almost
directly under him mere seconds after the final shot was fired. In his
same-day affidavit Holland did not specifically say that the shots came
from multiple directions or locations. He simply said that he "saw a
puff of smoke come from the trees" with only one of the shots, but did
not otherwise say that the sounds of the shots indicated multiple
directions. This is also the case with the FBI report on him dated two
days later. But things definitely change with his WC testimony of April
8, 1964:

**********

Mr. STERN - Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main
Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young
ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge would say
they were standing about here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Put No. 4 there, please. Fine.
Mr. HOLLAND - And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the
President was waving to the people on this side [indicating].
Mr. STERN - That is the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; On the north side.
Mr. STERN - All right.
Mr. HOLLAND - And she was looking in this direction [indicating].
Mr. STERN - "She," is Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. HOLLAND - His wife. And about that time---
Mr. STERN - Was looking in a southern direction?
Mr. HOLLAND - In the southern direction.
Mr. STERN - South side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - And about that time he went over like that [indicating],
and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could
tell.
Mr. STERN - Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward
and raised your right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - His right hand; and that was the first report that I
heard.
Mr. STERN - What did it sound like?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this
underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from
underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few
yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that
[indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN - To his right?
Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his
seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over
here [indicating]. The girls standing---now one of them was taking a
picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned
around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she
realized what was happening, I guess.
Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by
the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd say
along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the
floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---
Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about
the same time all this was happening, and in this group of
trees--[indicating].
Mr. STERN - Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm
Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - These trees right along here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees
you are referring to.
Mr. HOLLAND - Right in there. (Indicating.)
There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't
say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the
ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location
from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone
had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the
way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.
Mr. STERN - What number would that have been in the----
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, that would--they were so close together.
Mr. STERN - The second and third or the third and fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND - The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Mr. STERN - So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND - It could have been the third or fourth, but there were
definitely four reports.
Mr. STERN - You have no doubt about that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing
that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr. STERN - Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of
of the FBI several days after?
Mr. HOLLAND - I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's
office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there
were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr. STERN - Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at
that time?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.
Mr. STERN - You were certain then?
Mr. HOLLAND - I was certain then and I---in that statement I believe
that I---
Mr. STERN - Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either
three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the
agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr. HOLLAND - At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty
well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriffs office, whoever
took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they
were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six
Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of
smoke and heard the report from under those trees.
Mr. STERN - Did you realize that these were shots then?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.
Mr. STERN - You did?
Mr. HOLLAND - When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.
Mr. STERN - What did you then do?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well. immediately after the shots was fired, I run around
the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone
up there behind the fence.
Mr. STERN - That is the picket fence?
Mr. HOLLAND - That is the picket fence.
Mr. STERN - On the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND - Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was
just a big-it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and I
couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this fence
behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15
policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around
there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the
office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it,
and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to
the office and took me back up to the courthouse.
Mr. STERN - Did he know you personally?
Mr. HOLLAND - No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He didn't
know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at the
courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the
statement. and made made out the statement before they found out the
results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that policeman.
I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately after
the motorcade had passed through there.
Mr. STERN - What was your impression about the source of these noises,
if you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or
three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I
was.
Mr. STERN - East on Elm?
Mr. HOLLAND - Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have the
least idea that it was up any higher, hut I thought the shot was
coming---coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it
sounded like to me from where I was.
Mr. STERN - You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a
square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I take
it, that the shots were coming from your area?
Mr. HOLLAND - No.
Mr. STERN - It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far
as the sound was concerned?
Mr. HOLLAND - As far as the sound was concerned they did not.

**********

This is quite lengthy, but I am making sure that I quote more than
enough to clearly indicate the position Holland was taking on these
matters. Mr. Holland was adamant that he recalled *four* distinct
shots, and notice carefully, everyone, that he associated the puff of
smoke coming out from under the tree with either the third or the fourth
shot only, but definitely not both of them, and definitely not with
either the first or second shots. He was also asked specifically where
he thought the shots had sounded as if they came from and he was quite
clear that aside from the one that had come from under the trees, all
the other shots had seemed to come from "the upper part of the street,"
by which he almost certainly meant Elm. He was also quite clear that
the shot that seemed to come out from under the trees was *softer* in
volume than the other three shots: "It wasn't as loud as the previous
reports or shots."

This Youtube video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQi_qKDuSbA

presents two later filmed interviews with Holland, the first from the
Mark Lane film "Rush to Judgement" in 1966, and the second from the
following year as televised by CBS. Here we have a distinct advantage
over printed testimony, since we can now *see* Mr. Holland describe
where he thought the shots came from, as well as hear his verbal
descriptions. As I noted above, Mr. Holland to the WC said it was
either the third or the fourth shot that came from under the trees, but
in these filmed interviews he came down firmly on it being the third
shot only. We can also see him, especially in the CBS interview,
visually indicating where he thought the other three shots had come
from, and he again gives the location as much farther up Elm Street,
away from the Underpass, than the shot that came from under the trees,
i.e. much closer to the intersection of Elm and Houston.

Here I will also note that Galanor, once again, has been misleading in
his witness category. He puts Holland in the "Knoll" category, period.
But we can all plainly see, and hear, Holland say that only *one* shot
came from the knoll, and that the other three shots came from an
entirely different direction that is much more consistent with either
the TSBD or one of the buildings on or near the corner of Elm and
Houston.

So finally, at last, a month and two days after I started this thread,
we have a witness *quoted* in *this* thread specifically saying that the
shots came from multiple directions, saying it in three different years,
and also saying that one of the shots was *different* in *volume* from
the other shots.

Sadly, it still had to be me who quoted him, even though any other
poster, including Mr. Marsh, could have easily, easily done so long
before today, weeks ago. Mr. Marsh only named Holland. He did not
quote him, or give any source, in *this* thread.

Let us look now at the next witness Mr. Marsh only named, but did not
quote, and gave no valid original source, Paul Landis:

Already in his original report of November 27, 1963, SS Agent Paul
Landis is clearly a multi-direction witness. I quote the relevant
passage:

**********

At this moment I heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered
rifle from behind me, over my right shoulder. When I heard the sound
there was no question in my mind what it was. My first glance was at the
President, as I was practically looking in his direction anyway. I saw
him moving in a manner which I thought was to look in the direction of
the sound. I did not realize that President Kennedy had been shot at
this point.

I immediately returned my gaze, over my right shoulder, toward the
modernistic building I had observed before. With a quick glance I saw
nothing and immediately started scanning the crowd at the intersection
from my right to my left. I observed nothing unusual and began to think
that the sound had been that of a fire cracker but I hadn't seen any
smoke. In fact, I recall Special Agent Jack Ready saying, "What was it?
A Fire Cracker?" I remarked, "I don't know; I don't see any smoke.'' So
far the lapsed period of time could not have been over two or three
seconds.

All during this time I continued to scan the crowd, returning my gaze
towards the President's car. It must have been another second or two
before the next shot was fired because, as I recall having seen nothing
out of the ordinary, I then thought that maybe one of the cars in the
motorcade had had a blowout that had echoed off the buildings. I looked
at the right front tire of the President's car and saw it was all right.
I then glanced to see the right rear tire, but could not because the
Follow-up car was too close.

I also thought of trying to run and jump on the President's car but did
not think I could make it because of the speed at which we were
traveling. I decided I had better stay where I was so that I would at
least be near the First Lady, to whom I am assigned. I think that it was
at this point that I thought, ''Faster, Faster, Faster," thinking that
we could not get out of the area soon enough. However, I don't have any
idea as to how fast we were then moving.

I had drawn my gun, but I am not sure exactly when I did this. I did
leave my suit coat unbuttoned all during the motorcade movement,
thinking at the time that I could get to my gun faster this way, if I
had to.

I glanced towards the President and he still appeared to be fairly
upright in his seat, leaning slightly toward Mrs. Kennedy with his head
tilted slightly back. I think Mrs. Kennedy had her right arm around the
President's shoulders at this time. I also remember Special Agent
Clinton Hill attempting to climb onto the back of the President's car.

It was at this moment that I heard a second report and it appeared that
the President's head split open with a muffled exploding sound. I can
best describe the sound as I heard it, as the sound you would get by
shooting a high powered bullet into a five gallon can of water or
shooting into a melon. I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through
the air and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy.

The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about
four or five seconds.

My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive
after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which
direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that
the shot came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the
road.

**********

So, Landis seems to have recalled only two shots total. But he was
quite clear that he thought they had come from roughly *opposite*
directions. The first shot, he thought, came "from behind me, over my
right shoulder." His impression of the second shot, however, was that
it "came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the road."
There is also another document, dated November 30, 1963, and reproduced
in CE 1024, which is simply a repetition of the same report in identical
or nearly identical wording.

So now we're up to two witnesses in *this* thread actually being
*quoted* as saying the shots came from multiple directions. Sadly, I
had to quote this one too, even though all you believers in multiple
gunman have now had thirty-two days to do it before I did.

Mr. Marsh's next witness, which sadly, he only named, but did not quote,
and did not even give any source, is A.J. Millican. So once again I
will do what he should have done, and what any other poster in this
newsgroup could have easily done long before me at any time during the
past 31 days. Here is the relevant passage from Millican's same-day
affidavit, which anyone here could have easily quoted verbatim in *this*
thread long before today:

**********

Just after the President's car passed, I heard three shots come from up
toward Houston and Elm right by the Book Depository Building, and then
immediately I heard two more shots from the Arcade between the Book
Store and the Underpass, and then three more shots came from the same
direction only sounded further back.

**********

Quite remarkable: Mr. Millican seems to have recalled a total of *eight*
shots. The first three came from "right by the Book Depository
Building." The next two shots came from "the Arcade between the Book
Store and the Underpass." Then the final *three* shots came from the
same direction as the previous two, but from "further back." So Mr.
Millican was clearly giving *three* *different* locations for the sounds
of the gunfire, and additionally multiple distances as well.

So now, finally, at last, we have a third witness *quoted* in *this*
thread, along with a *valid* *original* *source* being plainly given,
saying these things. This has not been done by *any* poster in *this*
thread prior to today. Again, Mr. Marsh only *named* them in *this*
thread. He gave no source for any of them, nor did he *quote* any
source *verbatim*. Any of you believers in multiple shooters could have
easily done this long before today, even if Mr. Marsh didn't.

Oh well.

Now I go to Mr. Marsh's fourth and final witness, which he only named,
but gave no source for, and certainly didn't quote, Dave Powers.

Powers was of course an assistant to JFK, and in fact one of his
closest. In an affidavit dated May 18, 1964, Powers said this about the
gunfire:

**********

At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an
hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our
timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that
it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., Which was the time we were due at the
Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would
only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart.
Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it
were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to
his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had
been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared
from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the
President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering
against the side of a wall. The total time between the first and third
shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first impression was that the shots
came from the right and overhead, but I also had a fleeting impression
that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple
overpass. This may have resulted from my feeling, when I looked forward
toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush.

**********

Now here it is a bit less clear than with the previous three witnesses
whether or not Powers *definitely* meant that he thought the shots had
come from multiple directions. He said that his *first* impression was
that the shots "came from the right and overhead." But he also said
that he then had a "fleeting impression" that they came "from the front
in the area of the triple overpass." It is thus difficult to determine
whether he meant the shots came from one direction AND the other, or
from one direction OR the other, and if it is the latter, he would not
be the only witness to make such a statement. However, for the purposes
of this thread, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the
multi-gunmen believers and concede Powers into the multi-direction
category.

So now we have four.

Finally.

And again, sadly, I was the first one in this thread to *quote* them
*verbatim*, even though any of you could have easily done so long before
today, and in fact I made it quite plain in multiple articles that I
*wanted* others to *quote* these witnesses in *this* thread, anyone, not
Mr. Marsh only.

And sadly, all he did was name them.

He did not give any sources.

And he certainly did not *quote* any sources.

Only I have done so in *this* thread. Not another thread. *This*
thread.

So, only four multi-direction and/or multi-distance witnesses? That's
the best all of you can do? What about my repeated hints, given in
multiple articles on multiple dates in this thread that there is at
least one more whose last name begins with the latter W? Possibly more
than one? What on earth is taking you people so long to name them AND
quote them?

So, let's review my original challenge of September 26 again. I said
that for every witness QUOTED, not just named only, who said the shots
came from multiple directions and/or multiple distances, I would name
AND quote, in THIS thread, MORE THAN NINE witnesses who specifically
said that all the shots came from one direction, and said nothing about
any difference in volume or distance. Let's now review who I have
quoted, along with the original sources, in this thread, plus the dates
on which I quoted them:

Victoria Adams 9-27
Pierce Allman 10-17
Aurelia Alonzo 10-17
James Altgens 9-28
Thomas Atkins 10-18
Danny Arce 9-29
Hugh Aynesworth 10-9
Marrion Baker 9-30
Virgie Baker 10-1
Welcome Barnett 10-2
Robert Baskin 10-19
Glenn Bennett 10-3
Jane Berry 10-4
Hugh Betzner 10-5
Eugene Boone 10-6
Lee Bowers 10-7
Charles Brehm 10-8
Howard Brennan 10-10
Earle Brown 10-11
Margaret Brown 10-17
Earle Cabell 10-12
Mrs. Earle Cabell 10-15
Ann Donaldson 10-17

So that brings me up to twenty-three single-direction witnesses I have
quoted, along with giving the original sources for my quotes. And as of
today, only four multi-direction witnesses have been quoted, again by me
only. In fact, I am still as of today the *only* poster in this thread
to have quoted *any* witnesses and given *any* original sources for the
quotes. One would have thought that with so very many believers in
multiple gunmen in this newsgroup, they would have leapt at the chance
to quote the tiny minority of multi-direction witnesses, as many as
possible. But there seems to be something holding them back.

Rest assured, this will all be prominently noted here soon.

So, according to my own original challenge, I must quote more than nine
single-direction/single distance witnesses for every one that is quoted
in the multi-direction and/or multi-distance category. Only one more
than nine for each one, and I have still proven my original claims that
the multi-direction/multi-distance witnesses are *under* ten-percent and
that the single-direction/single distance witnesses are *over*
ninety-percent.

I didn't say "exactly" 90%, ever, Mr. Harris, Mr. Marsh.

I didn't say "exactly" 10% ever, Mr. Harris, Mr. Marsh.

I said MORE THAN 90% and LESS THAN 10%, and never once did I say exactly
HOW MUCH more and HOW MUCH less.

So all I have to do now is get my total up to at least thirty-seven and
indeed I'll have ratio higher than nine to one.

This will be too easy.

I will only quote three more today, plus cite some others who said
nothing either way about direction and/or distance, but I will still
have plenty of time to bring my total up to thirty-seven, or much higher
if necessary, in subsequent articles.

Another witness quoted on Pat Speer's website who is absent from the
Galanor list is Jack Bell of the AP:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

In only one paragraph on the entire page is Bell quoted verbatim as
saying anything at all about the direction of the gunfire, and this is
said there to be from a November 23, 1966 AP article:

**********

"Three years ago in a sunny midday in Dallas I heard from the fourth car
in a motorcade the sound of three rifle shots that killed a president
and wounded a governor. There was the sound of three cadenced shots�no
more, no fewer. As our car bearing four newsmen, a presidential press
aide and a driver turned left in front of the Texas School Book
Depository, the first of these rang out. The sound came from above and
to our right. It echoed down the canyon-like block of moderately tall
buildings behind us. I remember thinking that some over-enthusiastic
Dallasite must have exploded a cherry bomb. Then there was a second
crack, unmistakably that of a rifle. It was followed in about five
seconds by a third. Then there was a moment of awful silence, broken by
shrill cries and screams. People scurried toward whatever protection
they could find. As we scrambled back into our car, the motorcade, which
had halted, was moving again. Up ahead I saw a man, looking fearfully
back over his shoulder and the book depository building, push a woman
down on the grassy knoll that led to an overpass and throw his body
protectively over hers. The sounds of the three shots had come from
above and to the right of us. To one who had been familiar with shooting
ranges they sounded like the cadenced quick fire of an experienced
rifleman squeezing off a shot, re-loading by bolt action, firing again
and a third time..."

**********

As we can all plainly see, only one direction is given for all of the
gunfire: "above and to the right of us." And nothing whatsoever is said
about any difference in volume and/or distance. This same article in
its entirety can be viewed here:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5dYhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=l54FAAAAIBAJ&pg=49
48%2C4514365

The complete article also contains a statement which Mr. Speer did not
quote:

"All the sounds came from the same area [as] the book depository where
Lee Harvey Oswald had stationed himself."

Another witness absent from the Galanor list is Mark Bell, who is of
course known for his film taken in Dealey Plaza as the limousine entered
it. He also is quoted on Mr. Speer's site here:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5%3Athejigsawpuzzle

But in the entire paragraph devoted to him, he is nowhere quoted saying
anything at all about what direction he thought the sounds came from and
nothing at all about volume or distance either.

Ernest Brandt, also absent from the Galanor list, is included on Mr.
Speer's website here:

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Among the various quotations given there from various sources, only one
is given in which anything at all is said about the direction of the
gunfire, and this is from a November 23, 1998 article in the Fort Worth
Star-Telegram:

**********

"Dallas resident Ernest Brandt, 72, was wearing a hat yesterday, the
same hat he wore on the day he stood under a tree and saw Kennedy shot,
he said. Although many conspiracy theorists asked Brandt questions, he
said that he only heard three shots and that all of them came from
Oswald."

**********

Jack Brooks, also absent from the Galanor list, is cited by Mr. Speer:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

But no statement is quoted from any source in the entire paragraph
devoted to him in which anything at all is said about the direction,
volume, or distance of the gunfire.

One Mike Brownlow is cited by Mr. Speer on these two pages:

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether

However, it is specifically said that Brownlow merely *claims* to have
been present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination, but I do not know
yet of any contemporaneous documentation proving his presence on that
day. I welcome any poster to produce such documentation in this thread
if it exists. Be that as it may, Mr. Speer says he has talked to Mr.
Brownlow personally, but that Brownlow said of the shots that he "could
not tell where they came from." However, Brownlow is also quoted
farther down as saying, "And I definitely think that the last shot I
heard came from the Grassy Knoll." Nevertheless, nowhere on either page
is it *specifically* said that he thought the *other* shots came from a
*different* direction.

Peggy Burney is also quoted by Speer,

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

but nowhere in that is anything said about the direction and/or
volume/distance of any of the shots.

Henry Burroughs is also quoted on two pages by Mr. Speer:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether

But on neither of those pages is anything said about what he thought
regarding direction, volume, or distance for any shot.

Yet another absentee from Galanor's list who is cited by Mr. Speer is
Francine Burrows:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7%3Amorepiecesofthepuzzle

But she is another witness who is not confirmed by contemporaneous
documentation to have really been in Dealey Plaza that day. Gerald
Posner claims her to be seen in the Zapruder film, but I am as of today
unaware of any real proof that this is true. Again I welcome someone,
anyone, CT, LN, or uncommitted, to provide further documentation about
her in this thread. In any case, on Mr. Speer's page, once again
nothing is attributed to her regarding direction, volume, or distance
for the gunfire.

My next witness is indeed present on the Galanor list, and he is Ochus
V. Campbell, vice president of the Book Depository. In an FBI report
dated November 24, 1963, this is said regarding the gunfire:

**********

On November 22, 1963, he was present at his office at the above named
building and at about 12:30 PM on that day, he and several other
associates were together stationed about 30 feet in front of this
building facing away from the building observing the passing motorcade
containing President KENNEDY. At this time, he heard a loud report,
which at first he considered to be a fire cracker or some object set off
by a crank and believed the noise came from away from his building. This
illusion, he explained, may have been due to the sound bouncing off the
building and other objects in the vicinity. After hearing two more such
reports, he realized they must have been rifle shots and since President
KENNEDY's car had advanced just out of his vision, he went forward a few
feet to observe this automobile, inasmuch as he feared that the rifle
shots were in connection with an attempt upon President KENNEDY's life.
He then observed the car bearing President KENNEDY to slow down, a near
stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this,
he observed the car rush away from the scene. He then immediately rushed
into his building without having seen anything unusual from any window
of his building. Inside he was told shortly thereafter by the warehouse
superintendent, Mr. TRULY, that all the employees of the company had
been rounded up and one employee, LEE HARVEY OSWALD, was missing.

**********

Only one direction is given here for any of the gunfire, and that is
that he "believed the noise came from away from his building," but with
the added proviso that this "may have been due to the sound bouncing off
the building and other objects in the vicinity." But in another FBI
report dated only two days later this description had changed:

**********

Mr. Campbell advised he had viewed the Presidential Motorcade and
subsequently heard the shots being fired from a point which he thought
was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm Street.

**********

But although his statement of perceived direction may have changed, the
*number* of directions had not, as the only direction named in this
entire document is "near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on
Elm Street." Finally, on March 19, 1964, Mr. Campbell was quoted
verbatim in his own words, and his description of direction is identical
to the second FBI report above:

**********

I heard shots being fired from a point which I thought was near the
railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm street.

**********

Again, only one direction is named in the entire statement for all of
the sounds of gunfire, and nowhere in any of these three documents is
anything at all attributed to Mr. Campbell regarding even the slightest
difference in volume and/or distance for any of the gunfire.

So now my quotations of single-direction and single-distance witnesses
comes to twenty-six. Within a few more articles I will easily reach
thirty-seven, and still not even be anywhere close to halfway through
the alphabet. And we're still stuck at only four multi-direction and/or
multi-distance witnesses.

[Anthony Marsh]

Nor did I offer to quote any of them. Please ask me directly to quote
those 4 witnesses and then don't change the argument and ask me to quote
another 1,000.

> "The only possible way to prove me wrong on any of this, the only
> *possible* way, is to quote *more* than 10% of these witnesses, along
> with the original source of the quote so that we can all independently
> verify beyond your word that it really is an accurate quotation,
> specifically naming multiple directions for the gunfire in a *single*
> statement from a *single* original source. And regarding my other
> claim, that less than 10% specifically said that any individual shot
> sounded louder and/or closer than the others, the same thing would have
> to be done."
>
> Without *quoting* these witnesses, Mr. Marsh in *this* thread is failing
> to *prove* that these witnesses said the shots sounded as if they came
> from multiple directions and/or multiple distances. So I will now do
> what he should have done.
>

No. You changed the claim midstream.
That is what you do every time you lose an argument.

> S.M. "Skinny" Holland. Yes, yes, he's the one I've for weeks been
> begging all you believers in multiple shooters to *quote*. Sadly, not
> even one of you has done so, not even Mr. Marsh, not in *this* thread.
> So I'll do your work for you.
>
> At the time of the assassination, Mr. Holland was one of several
> railroad workers standing on the railroad bridge known as the Triple
> Underpass which runs over all three streets in Dealey Plaza, and in fact
> Mr. Holland at the time of the shooting was standing almost directly
> over the center of Elm Street, so that the limousine passed almost
> directly under him mere seconds after the final shot was fired. In his
> same-day affidavit Holland did not specifically say that the shots came
> from multiple directions or locations. He simply said that he "saw a
> puff of smoke come from the trees" with only one of the shots, but did
> not otherwise say that the sounds of the shots indicated multiple
> directions. This is also the case with the FBI report on him dated two
> days later. But things definitely change with his WC testimony of April
> 8, 1964:
>

Ah, so now that you've lost the argument again you again change the
challenge. The original challenge was to list witnesses who indicated that
shots came from two different directions. You did not specify HEARD. Now
you add HEARD because you lost the argument. Then when you lose this
argument you will change it to SEE. It never ends with you. You can not
admit even the simplest fact. It took you three months to admit that I did
list the 4 witnesses.

Make sure that you only cite official WC testimony.

> This Youtube video,
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQi_qKDuSbA
>
> presents two later filmed interviews with Holland, the first from the
> Mark Lane film "Rush to Judgement" in 1966, and the second from the
> following year as televised by CBS. Here we have a distinct advantage
> over printed testimony, since we can now *see* Mr. Holland describe
> where he thought the shots came from, as well as hear his verbal
> descriptions. As I noted above, Mr. Holland to the WC said it was
> either the third or the fourth shot that came from under the trees, but
> in these filmed interviews he came down firmly on it being the third
> shot only. We can also see him, especially in the CBS interview,
> visually indicating where he thought the other three shots had come
> from, and he again gives the location as much farther up Elm Street,
> away from the Underpass, than the shot that came from under the trees,
> i.e. much closer to the intersection of Elm and Houston.
>

Now you see why I told you NOT to cite TV or Filmed interviews. Because
it undercuts your point.
You just saw him say that it was only the third shot that came from the
grassy knoll. That blows your challenge out of the water.

> Here I will also note that Galanor, once again, has been misleading in
> his witness category. He puts Holland in the "Knoll" category, period.
> But we can all plainly see, and hear, Holland say that only *one* shot
> came from the knoll, and that the other three shots came from an
> entirely different direction that is much more consistent with either
> the TSBD or one of the buildings on or near the corner of Elm and
> Houston.
>

Galanor's categories do not specify that ALL the shots had to come from
that one location.

> So finally, at last, a month and two days after I started this thread,
> we have a witness *quoted* in *this* thread specifically saying that the
> shots came from multiple directions, saying it in three different years,
> and also saying that one of the shots was *different* in *volume* from
> the other shots.
>

Silly.

> Sadly, it still had to be me who quoted him, even though any other
> poster, including Mr. Marsh, could have easily, easily done so long
> before today, weeks ago. Mr. Marsh only named Holland. He did not
> quote him, or give any source, in *this* thread.
>

Again you misrepresent. I NAMED 4 witnesses from Six Seconds in Dallas.
I did not quote any of them.

> Let us look now at the next witness Mr. Marsh only named, but did not
> quote, and gave no valid original source, Paul Landis:
>
> Already in his original report of November 27, 1963, SS Agent Paul
> Landis is clearly a multi-direction witness. I quote the relevant
> passage:
>

Yeah, that's what yoi asked for.

You are destroying your own phony arguments.

> So now we're up to two witnesses in *this* thread actually being
> *quoted* as saying the shots came from multiple directions. Sadly, I
> had to quote this one too, even though all you believers in multiple
> gunman have now had thirty-two days to do it before I did.
>

Sadly you were not even aware of them until I NAMED them.

> Mr. Marsh's next witness, which sadly, he only named, but did not quote,
> and did not even give any source, is A.J. Millican. So once again I
> will do what he should have done, and what any other poster in this
> newsgroup could have easily done long before me at any time during the

Which was so easy that you never did it in 49 years.

> past 31 days. Here is the relevant passage from Millican's same-day
> affidavit, which anyone here could have easily quoted verbatim in *this*
> thread long before today:
>
> **********
>
> Just after the President's car passed, I heard three shots come from up
> toward Houston and Elm right by the Book Depository Building, and then
> immediately I heard two more shots from the Arcade between the Book
> Store and the Underpass, and then three more shots came from the same
> direction only sounded further back.
>

Jesus Christ! Why don't you just surrender and give up the game? You just
cited someone who said EIGHT shots. From two different directions.

> **********
>
> Quite remarkable: Mr. Millican seems to have recalled a total of *eight*
> shots. The first three came from "right by the Book Depository
> Building." The next two shots came from "the Arcade between the Book
> Store and the Underpass." Then the final *three* shots came from the
> same direction as the previous two, but from "further back." So Mr.
> Millican was clearly giving *three* *different* locations for the sounds
> of the gunfire, and additionally multiple distances as well.
>

Lazy. If you were really a dedicated WC defender you would claim that he
heard FOUR shots and then FOUR echoes from those shots.

> So now, finally, at last, we have a third witness *quoted* in *this*
> thread, along with a *valid* *original* *source* being plainly given,
> saying these things. This has not been done by *any* poster in *this*
> thread prior to today. Again, Mr. Marsh only *named* them in *this*
> thread. He gave no source for any of them, nor did he *quote* any
> source *verbatim*. Any of you believers in multiple shooters could have
> easily done this long before today, even if Mr. Marsh didn't.
>

Well, you didn't ask me to quote them.

And again, make sure that you never read any book except for the Warren
Commission Report. So you would not be aware of his conversation with
Tip O'Neil at Anthony's Pier 4 restaurant.

> So now we have four.
>

Four, is that all? I thought you said it was 10%. Or was that 90%? You
seem to use them interchangeably. So now my challenged to you:

Find at least one more than the four I named.

> Finally.
>
> And again, sadly, I was the first one in this thread to *quote* them
> *verbatim*, even though any of you could have easily done so long before
> today, and in fact I made it quite plain in multiple articles that I
> *wanted* others to *quote* these witnesses in *this* thread, anyone, not
> Mr. Marsh only.
>
> And sadly, all he did was name them.
>

Which you denied repeatedly that I did.

> He did not give any sources.
>
> And he certainly did not *quote* any sources.
>

I cited Six Seconds in Dallas.

> Only I have done so in *this* thread. Not another thread. *This*
> thread.
>
> So, only four multi-direction and/or multi-distance witnesses? That's
> the best all of you can do? What about my repeated hints, given in
> multiple articles on multiple dates in this thread that there is at
> least one more whose last name begins with the latter W? Possibly more
> than one? What on earth is taking you people so long to name them AND
> quote them?
>
> So, let's review my original challenge of September 26 again. I said
> that for every witness QUOTED, not just named only, who said the shots
> came from multiple directions and/or multiple distances, I would name
> AND quote, in THIS thread, MORE THAN NINE witnesses who specifically
> said that all the shots came from one direction, and said nothing about
> any difference in volume or distance. Let's now review who I have
> quoted, along with the original sources, in this thread, plus the dates
> on which I quoted them:
>

Phony challenge. No one said the ratio was 9-1.

> and wounded a governor. There was the sound of three cadenced shots?no

Maybe because he was never there during the shooting.
Also missing from the list is Gordon Arnold, because he was not there on
11//22/63.

BFD. I met a guy who worked at the Harvard Coop who said when he was a
young boy he was in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. I am not impressed
by phony witnesses. Beverly Oliver? Witt?

> Peggy Burney is also quoted by Speer,
>
> http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza
>
> but nowhere in that is anything said about the direction and/or
> volume/distance of any of the shots.
>

That YOU know of.
Maybe because you're not a researcher.

> Henry Burroughs is also quoted on two pages by Mr. Speer:
>
> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad
>
> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9%3Apiecingittogether
>
> But on neither of those pages is anything said about what he thought
> regarding direction, volume, or distance for any shot.
>
> Yet another absentee from Galanor's list who is cited by Mr. Speer is
> Francine Burrows:
>
> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7%3Amorepiecesofthepuzzle
>
> But she is another witness who is not confirmed by contemporaneous
> documentation to have really been in Dealey Plaza that day. Gerald
> Posner claims her to be seen in the Zapruder film, but I am as of today
> unaware of any real proof that this is true. Again I welcome someone,
> anyone, CT, LN, or uncommitted, to provide further documentation about

Uncommitted? Like one person? Sorry, but Ken Rahn does not post here.

But in fact the DPD put out an APB because he was missing.

So what?
No one promised you 10%.

[John Reagor King]

Frank Cancellare is another witness cited by Mr. Speare who does not
appear on the Galanor list:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6%3Apiecesontheroad

But in the brief paragraph devoted to him there is no mention of
Cancellare saying anything about the direction, or volume, or distance
of the gunfire.

My next witness is Richard Carr, who at the time of the assassination
was on the 7th floor of the new Courthouse building which was at the
time still under construction. In an FBI report dated January 4, 1964,
there is no specific statement regarding where Mr. Carr thought the
shots came from. In his testimony at the Shaw trial on February 19,
1964, however, Mr. Carr was quite explicit on this matter. He said he
heard four shots total, and that the first shot sounded as if it came
from a pistol, and the subsequent three shots sounded like a rifle:

"At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book
Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was
standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed
a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light
hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner
of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time
before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small
arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight
pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in
succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they
came -- "

At this point Mr. Carr was interrupted repeatedly and extensively by
both defense and prosecution, as well as the judge, as various
objections were raised regarding Mr. Carr's qualifications to
distinguish pistol fire from rifle fire. When he was finally allowed to
continue, he was asked by Mr. Garrison if he could tell which direction
the first shot, the one supposedly fired with a pistol, came from, to
which he replied:

"No, sir, not the first one I could not tell the direction it come [sic]
from."

Then, when asked if he could tell where the three subsequent "rifle"
shots had come from, he said:

"They came from the -- from where I was standing at the new courthouse,
they came from in this direction here, behind this picket fence, and one
knocked a bunch of grass up along in this area here (indicating), this
area here is flat, looking at it from here, but the actual way it is, it
is on a slope up this way and you could tell from the way it knocked it
up that the bullet came from this direction (indicating)."

In response to further questioning, Mr. Carr elaborated:

"The shots came from this direction, from behind this picket fence that
I do not see here, and there is a slope here, there is a grassy slope
down here and there were a lot of people, spectators down here, below on
this grassy slope, but when those shots were fired the motorcycle
policemen, the Secret Service and what-have-you, all came in this
direction, the way the shots came from, some of the people that were
sitting there or standing fell to the ground as if the shots were coming
off of those -- "

He was then again interrupted by an objection from the defense. In the
remainder of the testimony Mr. Carr said nothing else which specifically
contradicted the above, but continued to confirm that he thought the
"rifle" shots had all come from the fence area of the knoll. And it
should be noted that he never specifically said that the first "pistol"
shot came from a *different* direction than the fence, he simply said he
did not know what direction it came from. So indeed, he is yet another
witness who specifically named only one direction for any of the gunfire.

Edna Case is another witness given by Mr. Speare who is not on Galanor's
list:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter8%3Atherestofthepuzzle

But here also nothing is attributed to her by Mr. Speare regarding the

direction, volume, or distance of the gunfire.

James Chaney, one of the motorcycle policemen near the limousine at the
time of the shooting, is also strangely absent from Galanor's list. A
brief television interview he gave later on the same day cqn be seen
here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYdB3e6yQ9E

It is difficult to understand what he is saying because of all the
background noise of all the media crammed into the corridor, but he only
mentioned hearing two shots, and having looked over his left shoulder at
Kennedy and seeing that he had been struck by at least one of them.
When the reporter then asked him where the gunfire had come from, he
said from over his *right* shoulder, and gave no other direction in the
entire interview.

My third single-direction witness for today, which brings my total in
this thread up to 29, is John Chism. At the time of the shooting, he
and his wife were standing directly in front of the Stemmons Freeway
sign, the same sign that briefly obscures the occupants of the limousine
in the Zapruder film, on the north side of Elm, with the so-called
"knoll" behind them. In his same-day affidavit he said this about the
gunfire:

**********

When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing
and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me,
he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right
side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him,
"The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left
side. At this point, I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over
in her lap, and then lay down over him as if to shield him.

And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked
back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was
fired. At this point, I looked behind me, to see whether it was a
fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people funning
for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.

**********

The only indication he gave here about where he thought the gunfire had
come from is that he looked behind him, as if that's where he thought it
had come from. Things are stated more clearly in that regard in the FBI
report on him dated December 18, 1963:

**********

JOHN ARTHUR CHISM, 4502 Underwood Drive, advised he was employed as a
cook at the Marriott Motel, 2101 Stemmons Freeway. Dallas Texas.
According to CHISM, he was standing on the curb in front of the concrete
memorial on Elm Street which is just east of the triple underpass where
Elm, Commerce and Main join in Dallas on November 22, 1963. He was
standing at this location when the Presidential motorcade passed this
point. As it passed in front of him he heard at leat two shots and
possibly three but no more. The first shot he thought was a firecracker
until the second shot sounded and at that instant he saw the President
slump over in the back seat of the Presidential limousine. On hearing
the second shot he definitely knew the first was not a firecracker and
was of the opinion the shots came from behind him.

**********

So it is quite clear that Mr. Chism thought ALL of the shots had come
from behind him. And in neither document is there any mention
whatsoever of any individual shot sounding louder, or closer, or farther