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Curtis LeMay at the autopsy: He Was There

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burgundy

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Dec 11, 2011, 10:12:26 PM12/11/11
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Claviger wrote:

And by the way, there was no mystery Army General
giving orders to the autopsy team either. That silly story has been
completely debunked.

I wrote: Because it was Curtis LeMay of the Air Force.

claviger wrote:

A list of people in the
autopsy room was made by the FBI. Curtis LeMay is not on that list.

Randy Owen wrote on Lancer:
Excerpts of the material never heard before, can be listened to here:

http://www.raabcollection.com/kennedy-air-force-one-tape/

What's fascinating, and I'm sure will generate lots of discussion, is
that references to Gen. Curtis LeMay were "cut out" of the versions
that are in the National Archives and/or the LBJ Library. But you can
now hear at least one reference to him that's never been heard before.

This Raab Collection website is excellent!


I responded to Claviger:

Interview with Paul O'Connor with William Law "In the Eye of History,"
2005. You believe who you want; I would not believe the FBI on anything in
this case. From Horne's AARB report Volume IV, page 1018.

QUOTE ON:

Law asked O'Connor specifically which high-ranking personages were present
at the autopsy.

O'Connor: I remember there was Admiral Burkley, the President's personal
physician. He came in and was very agitated --giving orders to everybody,
including higher ranking officers.

Law: What kind of orders?

O: Be prepared to do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.

L: So he, in effect, assumed command?

O: He was entirely in command over admirals, over generals. I remember
one general who was sitting in the gallery. It was a teaching morgue and
we had a big gallery. I remember Curtis LeMay sitting there with a big
cigar in his hand.

L: How did you know it was Curtis LeMay?

O: I knew Curtis LeMay by seeing him before and by the big cigar he smoked
all the time (footnote)*.

L: What was his manner when you saw him?

O: Nonchalant. Kind of , "well, let's get this show on the road."

*Horne's footnote: "I refer the reader to my writeup in Chapter Five. in
which I laid out documentary evidence -- proof -- showing the U.S. Air
Force Chief Curtis LeMay had refused a directive from the Secretary of the
Air Force to go to Andrews AFB to meet Air Force One when it arrived from
Dallas, and had instead incongruously landed at Washington, D.C.'s
National Airport in an Air Force aircraft. LeMay's aircraft landed in
plenty of time to allow him to get to Bethesda before the President's
arrival there at 6:35 PM.

Finally, an additional post on Lancer stated:

One last, brief post on this before the conference.

In the new section of tape, General LeMay's aide
describes LeMay as being airborne in a C-140
specifically a SAM C-140

SAM stands for Special Air Mission and is the
designated air group which supports travel
by the President and the other highest ranking
US govt. officials. It appears that LeMay was
on a SAM aircraft which would explain why
his aide is talking to SAM control - the unit
in communications with all SAM aircraft including
AF1 and the Cabinet aircraft and that is why
he gets on this particular tape.

-- Larry

Burgundy


Ramon F. Herrera

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Dec 12, 2011, 9:03:23 AM12/12/11
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John McAdams

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Dec 12, 2011, 11:45:15 AM12/12/11
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Does *anybody* besides O'Connor say LeMay was there?

This is Lifton's "body bag" fellow.

BTW, somebody on this newsgroup posted that O'Connor had told them
that years ago. If he's saying it, it's nice it's now "on the
record," but it doesn't make it credible.

.John

--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 12, 2011, 10:00:05 PM12/12/11
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Thanks for the link. I think it is now clear that while Air Force One was
still in the air they expected Curtis Le May to arrive back in Washington
even before Air Force One would arrive.

But I suspect that we can still learn more from what has not yet been
released from the tape. I want to know more about why the aide was so
anxious to contact LeMay. I suspect that he was concerned that LeMay might
be the only one left who could launch WWIII and wanted to reassure him
that LBJ had taken the oath of office was soon to return back to
Washington. Remember that the code book was missing from the plane
carrying the cabinet back to Washington.

And I think some people feared that LeMay would start WWIII all on his
own.


Gerry Simone

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Dec 13, 2011, 1:42:34 PM12/13/11
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Even if LeMay was there, then this shows he was just a spectator enjoying
his stogey, no?

However, if the FBI omittied his name on a list, etc., then it's another
shot at their credibility, and anyone else who says otherwise.

"burgundy" <WBurg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b8c5a663-eba1-4788...@u6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

claviger

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Dec 13, 2011, 1:46:31 PM12/13/11
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On Dec 11, 9:12 pm, burgundy <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
Burgundy,

As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Curtis
LeMay would probably be admitted to the gallery overlooking the
autopsy, so it is possible he was there. If so, it is very strange
only one person noticed him puffing on his cigar up in the gallery.
Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, USAF was US military aide to the
President on the Dallas trip and was present inside the pathology
operating room to act as the eyes and ears for Robert Kennedy, and to
relay messages by phone to the autopsy team from the Attorney
General. Strange McHugh never mentioned General LeMay being in the
gallery, however it really doesn't matter if LeMay was there or not.
It proves absolutely nothing either way, since according to O'Connor
he was a passive spectator. There is no question, as a guest at a
Naval facility, LeMay would be asked to leave if he attempted to
interfere with a Navy pathology team. Everyone at the autopsy
realized that Admiral Burkley was in charge and he reported only to
Attorney General Robert F Kennedy.








Gerry Simone

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Dec 13, 2011, 7:10:40 PM12/13/11
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Correct Claviger - This account only makes LeMay a passive spectator.

LeMay probably wanted to know if it was a conspiracy too, by the Soviets.
If so, he might have been more worried about the security of the USA (as
he should).


"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:53d84132-55e5-4ff7...@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 13, 2011, 7:22:02 PM12/13/11
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So is your theory that McHugh was the mystery general?
I like that. So none of those military personnel could tell the
difference between a Brigadier General and a 4-star General. That makes
sense.


Anthony Marsh

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Dec 13, 2011, 10:09:02 PM12/13/11
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On 12/13/2011 1:42 PM, Gerry Simone wrote:
> Even if LeMay was there, then this shows he was just a spectator enjoying
> his stogey, no?
>
> However, if the FBI omittied his name on a list, etc., then it's another
> shot at their credibility, and anyone else who says otherwise.
>

We know the list was not complete and not accurate. What you seem to be
suggesting is they saw him and knew who he was and intentionally left his
name out. That's almost as bad as the LBJ intentionally removing any
references to LeMay on the Air Force One tape, or the Kennedy Library
destroying 4 or 5 official White House tapes because there was something
embarrassing on them.

claviger

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Dec 13, 2011, 10:15:16 PM12/13/11
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Anthony,

> > As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Curtis
> > LeMay would probably be admitted to the gallery overlooking the
> > autopsy, so it is possible he was there.  If so, it is very strange
> > only one person noticed him puffing on his cigar up in the gallery.
> > Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, USAF was US military aide to the
> > President on the Dallas trip and was present inside the pathology
> > operating room to act as the eyes and ears for Robert Kennedy, and to
> > relay messages by phone to the autopsy team from the Attorney
> > General.  Strange McHugh never mentioned General LeMay being in the
> > gallery, however it really doesn't matter if LeMay was there or not.
> > It proves absolutely nothing either way, since according to O'Connor
> > he was a passive spectator.  There is no question, as a guest at a
> > Naval facility, LeMay would be asked to leave if he attempted to
> > interfere with a Navy pathology team.  Everyone at the autopsy
> > realized that Admiral Burkley was in charge and he reported only to
> > Attorney General Robert F Kennedy.
>
> So is your theory that McHugh was the mystery general?
> I like that. So none of those military personnel could tell the
> difference between a Brigadier General and a 4-star General. That makes
> sense.

I know who the mystery General was because I did my homework, I read the
ARRB investigation of this silly rumor. I gave you plenty of hints but
you still haven't figured it out. This nefarious mystery you take so
seriously is laughable.



John McAdams

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Dec 14, 2011, 9:50:16 AM12/14/11
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On 13 Dec 2011 13:46:31 -0500, claviger <histori...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>
>Burgundy,
>
>As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Curtis
>LeMay would probably be admitted to the gallery overlooking the
>autopsy, so it is possible he was there. If so, it is very strange
>only one person noticed him puffing on his cigar up in the gallery.

And of course, O'Connor is Lifton's "body bag" witness, she he's
already known to give unreliable testimony.

.John

claviger

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Dec 14, 2011, 2:56:04 PM12/14/11
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On Dec 11, 9:12 pm, burgundy <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
Nothing in this message confirms Gen. LeMay was at the autopsy. The FBI
were keeping names on who came and went. No mention of LeMay.




Gerry Simone

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Dec 14, 2011, 2:56:56 PM12/14/11
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So any omissions on that list are not cause for concern?

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4ee7bc8f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

Gerry Simone

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Dec 14, 2011, 2:57:17 PM12/14/11
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I can't recall the body bag issue with JFK. Did he say JFK was in a body
bag inside the casket (or without), as opposed to being wrapped in a white
sheet within the casket?

"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:4ee8b757...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

burgundy

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Dec 14, 2011, 10:26:13 PM12/14/11
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On Dec 14, 8:50 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2011 13:46:31 -0500, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
And of course, sinceyou don't like anything Lifton says, than EVERYONE
associated with his RESEARCH

burgundy

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Dec 14, 2011, 10:27:27 PM12/14/11
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On Dec 14, 8:50 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2011 13:46:31 -0500, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
MUST HAVE LIED ALL THE TIME. I guess that mean's John,according to your
logic, if a guy,in your opinion gives unreliable testimony EVERYTHING HE
SAYS IS A LIE.

Have you ever told people something unreliable, EVER. If so, WE CAN'T
BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU EVER SAY AGAIN.

jas

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Dec 14, 2011, 10:27:50 PM12/14/11
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On Dec 13, 8:09 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 1:42 PM, Gerry Simone wrote:
>
> > Even if LeMay was there, then this shows he was just a spectator enjoying
> > his stogey, no?
>
> > However, if the FBI omittied his name on a list, etc., then it's another
> > shot at their credibility, and anyone else who says otherwise.
>
> We know the list was not complete and not accurate. What you seem to be
> suggesting is they saw him and knew who he was and intentionally left his
> name out. That's almost as bad as the LBJ intentionally removing any
> references to LeMay on the Air Force One tape, or the Kennedy Library
> destroying 4 or 5 official White House tapes because there was something
> embarrassing on them.
>


It's more reasonable to conclude LeMay would be at his "commanding
post" that night, having just had the president of the most powerful
country in the free world shot down in the street, with no real facts
yet on what was behind it.

But yet this common sense doesn't stop CTs from taking their ever-
popular right-wing cheap shot

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 14, 2011, 11:51:15 PM12/14/11
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On 12/14/2011 2:56 PM, Gerry Simone wrote:
> So any omissions on that list are not cause for concern?
>

That's correct. Typical FBI screw-ups.

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 14, 2011, 11:51:55 PM12/14/11
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The FBI list was not complete or accurate.


Anthony Marsh

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Dec 14, 2011, 11:54:27 PM12/14/11
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On 12/14/2011 9:50 AM, John McAdams wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2011 13:46:31 -0500, claviger<histori...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>> Burgundy,
>>
>> As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Curtis
>> LeMay would probably be admitted to the gallery overlooking the
>> autopsy, so it is possible he was there. If so, it is very strange
>> only one person noticed him puffing on his cigar up in the gallery.
>
> And of course, O'Connor is Lifton's "body bag" witness, she he's
> already known to give unreliable testimony.
>

Which "testimony" are you talking about? WC, HSCA, ARRB? Can you quote
which testimony you think is unreliable and why?

burgundy

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Dec 15, 2011, 12:02:40 AM12/15/11
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On Dec 14, 1:57 pm, "Gerry Simone" <newdecent...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I can't recall the body bag issue with JFK.  Did he say JFK was in a body
> bag inside the casket (or without), as opposed to being wrapped in a white
> sheet within the casket?
>
> "John McAdams" <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:4ee8b757...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 13 Dec 2011 13:46:31 -0500, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Burgundy,
>
> >>As a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Curtis
> >>LeMay would probably be admitted to the gallery overlooking the
> >>autopsy, so it is possible he was there.  If so, it is very strange
> >>only one person noticed him puffing on his cigar up in the gallery.
>
> > And of course, O'Connor is Lifton's "body bag" witness, she he's
> > already known to give unreliable testimony.
>
> > .John
>
> > The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
> >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

And when Humes asked who was in charge here LeMay shouted I AM.

claviger

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Dec 15, 2011, 9:51:54 AM12/15/11
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burgundy,

> And when Humes asked who was in charge here LeMay shouted I AM.
Where did you get that idea? Cite please.




claviger

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Dec 15, 2011, 9:52:03 AM12/15/11
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> >> Burgundy
>
> > Nothing in this message confirms Gen. LeMay was at the autopsy.  The FBI
> > were keeping names on who came and went.  No mention of LeMay.
>
> The FBI list was not complete or accurate.
You've said that before but never prove it. How could the FBI miss or
ignore a Curtis LeMay?







claviger

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Dec 15, 2011, 6:21:02 PM12/15/11
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Anthony,

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 15, 2011, 7:57:28 PM12/15/11
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Sure, why not?


Gerry Simone

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Dec 15, 2011, 8:04:16 PM12/15/11
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Screw-ups are cause for concern in an investigation :)

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4ee9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

Gerry Simone

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Dec 15, 2011, 8:04:43 PM12/15/11
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Maybe their list concerned itself with those attending the actual autopsy
proper - in the autopsy room. Spectators in the bleachers above looking
in from behind the glass were not necessarily listed. Just a guess.

"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4165ed48-1487-4af0...@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

Anthony Marsh

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Dec 15, 2011, 9:35:24 PM12/15/11
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On 12/15/2011 8:04 PM, Gerry Simone wrote:
> Maybe their list concerned itself with those attending the actual autopsy
> proper - in the autopsy room. Spectators in the bleachers above looking
> in from behind the glass were not necessarily listed. Just a guess.
>

Did the list include Jackie or RFK? I could ask the same stupid question
about could they not recognize Jackie or RFK.

Gerry Simone

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Dec 16, 2011, 4:23:40 PM12/16/11
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Nobody could forget the 1st Lady or the President's brother, but my
suggestion was just a guess.

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4eea...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

claviger

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Dec 17, 2011, 10:43:18 PM12/17/11
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On Dec 15, 7:04 pm, "Gerry Simone" <newdecent...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe their list concerned itself with those attending the actual autopsy
> proper - in the autopsy room.  Spectators in the bleachers above looking
> in from behind the glass were not necessarily listed.  Just a guess.

Maybe so.


tom...@cox.net

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Dec 28, 2011, 10:12:13 AM12/28/11
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Only a LN'r would CONFUSE a "DENIAL" with "DEBUNKED".
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

tom...@cox.net

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Dec 28, 2011, 10:12:19 AM12/28/11
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On 11/22/63 the officer of the day was Dennis David. Dennis told me
pesonally in my chat room that LeMay CERTAINLY was there that night.






claviger <histori...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 15, 7:04=A0pm, "Gerry Simone" <newdecent...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe their list concerned itself with those attending the actual
> > autopsy proper - in the autopsy room. =A0Spectators in the bleachers
> > above looking in from behind the glass were not necessarily listed.
> > =A0Just a guess.
>
> Maybe so.
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