Judyth: From the Beginning, Part 12
Dave Reitzes
Subj: Re: confidential
Date: 10/11/00 10:02:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Americanwebworks
To: Dreitzes
==Dear Dave-- if you look at deja tonight, which some friends directed
me to, you'd see David Lifton talking about hypothetical things i
might have said that caused his bells to ring.....but he will not, nor
could i get him to tell me through friendly contacts, what it was that
he objected to.
I have had an extraordinary life, from reconstructing the skull of a
pilocene whale before hundreds of people as a working paleontologist,
to finding a viking grave in norway. I've rescued starving horses and
interviewed people such as medgar evans. i was arrested for writing
anti vietnam war stuff. POne of my friends was shot and thrown in a
freezer at same time. I have had a very exciting life and did not
need to bring more excitement into it.
The book's manuscript, that was shown to publishers, was a teaser
meant to see f there was real interest. they knew the book was
flagged(that is, certain incidents in it were not true, to keep the
book from getting stolen and secretly published). I have the only true
manuscript, though others have portions, so it can;t be all put
together until the end. but everybody knows what is in the book: I
painstakingly will tell you through emails, and of course at any time
you feel free to do so, ask Martin or Howard about something. They
have verified a lot.
I understand about finances, and i am so sorry. Still, I hope your
health is ok. You are not married--maybe you are paying huge alimony.
maybe you are in social work. that is what keeps my earnings way down--
first social work, then going back to get a doctorate. But I kept my
earnings down so my kids could get scholarships.
I believe you do want to know the truth. Only one person got the
OUTLINE without first meeting me and seeing the evidence or meeting
Howard and seeing the evidence, so far as i know, and that was an
error, because you need to see it with your own eyes.
Not that there's a lot. But it does exist, just barely enough, I
suppose. But I support it by supplying nuggets of info nobody else
could possibly have known about--such as the special radiation permit
the U of Fla got for just the few months I was working there in the
nutrition lab---which was rescinded right after I left the lab at
PenChem just down the road from there, beginning of 1964 when they
were terrified to keep it. The politics around that permit clearly
demonstrate that clandestine work was going on, if you saw all the
documents. So i don't own those docs, but knew they existed and now
they have been found. I also knew two doctors directing me got their
special training at Oak Ridge, since I was a minor---both doctors from
Bradenton -- a small town--yet are in this elite human tissue
radiation seminar for training in this exotic area---just when I was
doing my cancer research with radiation, and do have a letter from
Walter Reed describing my work---- and offering me chemicals and even
more help.
I claimed connections with Oak Ridge and the CIA. They found
documents from Oak Ridge--and presence of a CIA agent at the training
sessions --which only recently have been released.
I only bring this up to say why Martin has four feet thick of
leads, statements, then records backing upo what i have to say.
The doctors we are talking about--I was conscripted in indianapolis--
that same year i was conscripted and went to Indiana, one of these
doctors moves to indianapolis also from Bradenton. There was so much
being orchestrated. None by themselves overwhelming, but I have lots
and lots of stuff like that, point by point.
There will be a way one day we can meet.
I have to go grade lots more papers right now. Think i told you
I was going to Tampa friday. not so, media is coming here, will go to
NY week after that, then to Tampa. They lkeep changing it, it doesn;t
matter. they are bringing in more people. You would be amazed at the
names of some of these people. So far they have been uncovering a
large webwork, the one of which i was aware that fits into what is out
there. the underpinnings, Dave. If you ever hear that I die, remember,
i do not believe in suicide and I am checking out very healthy here,
despite chronic pain. i do not drink, smoke or use any drugs. I have a
lot of friends and am a very happy person. But things are getting a
little tough as far as crank calls and stuff. Think i told you there
was a bomb scare at my office.
Anyway, the letter i have from Walter Reed mentions file name
MEDEC-ZOA. I was ZOA and i was assigned to something called ZOE.
Lee was not much like he has been portrayed. bet you would have
liked him. His birthday is coming up, you know. He was only just 24
when they did him in. as my friend (Marcello's granddaughter, they
all know me) said, "Lee had to take the fall, you know that."
I hear that everybody knows this statement, but it still hurts
when I hear it, or when I read lee plotted to kill JFK. Did you know
he memorized his Marine manual word for word? How many real communists
ever did such a thing? he wore his marine ring to the bitter end.
well, I'll get gloomy if I go there, so that's all for now.
Thank you for your kindness. I will never seek to change your mind.
T9me itself, perhaps, will do that, as you see the evidence and talk
to me face to face. It will happen someday, Dave. I had a good Dave
in my life before (Ferrie--a better man than HE is made out to be,
too).....now there's that "bad" Dave (Lifton). i am amazed at what he
thinks I'd say that could be revealed in 90 minutes with so many
blatant errors, yet errors he feels he cannot, for some reason, say to
the newsgroup. Why? SAre they too stupid to catch what he caught? Are
they, perhaps, too smart and might not agree?
You should know by now that I didn;t say very much at all to him in
those 90 minutes (I told everybody 90 minutes, he initially claimed 2
hrs, noew has changed that back to the truth)...anyway, I let out the
information slowly. he got very little.
I will send you a picture that shows how i resembled marina, if you
will not show it to other people (I don't care if you tell Martin,
Howard about it...there are others you know who have some pictures,
and stuff....but i do not want people like Lifton to get their hands
on such things. I cannot believe any more thgat it was me he thought
he had talked to! Nuts--he DID talk to me, but his brain seems to
have been on a vacation somewhere...he can;t even bring up anything,
Dave---- because he knows the truth is out there to a lot of people
and has never varied. WHY would i vary it from person to person? Thank
God, a lot of people know exactly what lee's real quote was, for
example:
"If i stay, that will be one less bullet aimed at Kennedy." Or very
close to that. he stayed so one less bullet would be aimed at the
president. And he is the one dragged to his death. Could he have gone
running out there and stopped it? They would have grabbed him right
then and there,and arrested him as a troublemaker, and it wuldnpt have
stopped the cavalcade, not for a moment. The cars would have gone down
to the Trade Mart, and there Kennedy would have been shot anyway.
That is what I was told, at least. i was not there.
Lee told me to stay alive and had no faith in any life hereafter.
He hoped that I'd live long enough to to see his name get cleared. He
never asked that I even try to do that, he just told me to stay alive
however i could. He wanted me to have babies. He had no hope that
Marina would ever learn the truth. The Paines, he despised them.
well, goodbye for now...work to do.
take care, Dave. As Beatrice says to Benedick in Much Ado About
Nothing, "Against my better judgement" she finds she's fond of him.
Just hang in there. i hope to get time next week to give you the
attention you deserve. it's not right to just give you bits and pieces
like this. If there is some way Howard can talk to you, and he agrees,
maybe he will show you copies of some of the evidence. It may be up to
him because he seems to live close to you. Howard is a great, kind,
intelligent man who is risking so much. I love him to pieces!
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
Subj: Re: confidential
Date: 10/12/00 1:08:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Americanwebworks
To: Dreitzes
==I am on my way to new york tomorrow after noon, all that suddenly. I
am being taken all over the place and nobody even is aware of how many
times i am being interrogated and tested and everything. Soon it will
be so solid only people who lie will fight it. Yes, they keep finding
more things, Dave. So many i did not know people did not know. Other
things I thought nobody probably knew, yet everybody knows! I mean,
the library books we took out!
You know i have a degree in anthropology. if you look, you'll see
Lee checked out THE HITTITE, a fiction book about the NILE, and also
BEN HUR and EVERYDAY LIFE IN ANCIENT ROME. We had an ongoing game
played with Dave Ferrie over his Latin. I knew my Latin. the book
still intact on Dr, Mary's bookcase, i saw recent article, reinded me
with a jolt---: The Art of Latin-- this was all part of our ongoing
jokes we were pulling on Dave through the Latin language. I had also
studied Latin, but my great interest was Egypt, and I ended up
studying ancient Egyptian (heiro, not demotic). Think already told you
still have the Latin flashcards we used to put together phrases to
drive Dave crazy. My deep interest in anthropology matched Lee's
own, we loved this stuff, and of course, I went on to get degreed in
it. I think, hasd lee lived and got out of this thing and out (is it
possible?) from under all this control, he would have gone into the
Peace Corps. he was that kind of person. Liked being around people
more than you know, he was putting on a show, Dave. Just look at the
pictures of him with his russian friends, the other pictuies...yes, he
had his moods. But he was a champion for numan rights. I don;t even
know how you feel about human rights. we would sit in the back of the
bus with the blacks, drink form water fountains, we cheered when they
tore the "colored" signs down and opened the Park to all that summer.
No more crystal beach, the blacks got to ride on the same rides as
whites for the first time that very summer.
It was a summer that really made us want to go marching with MLK
into Washington, but we were stuck in N.O. One reason, as you'll find
out later, what was going on in Clinton. banister disgusted us, a lot
of his buddies were as racist as he was and lee had to put on a front
for him. Yet I heard tis, that summer: Clay Shaw has a Bronze Star (I
think that';s what it was), writes books and plays, and is a great
civic leader. ochsner is the foremost cancer specialist in the
Americas and is personal physician to great leaders. Madame Channault
and Chennault, and Donovan are/were his close friends. And David
Ferrie is an anti-Castro warrior who has risked his life many times.
Banister was Chief of Chicago FBI. Not bad company, not bad at all."
This was who we were supposed to trust and work for, they were not
described as they are now9well, ochsner escaped that). We didn;t see
thse people as deviates, homosexuals, creepy as they are made to look
now. they had their private lives, but they were heroic, as ochsner
said, "If we don't do it, we'll see it all go" (communist, he
meant).....he's on record as saying doctors needed to take things in
their own hands to fight communism--and he followed his words with
action.
So we were not ashamed of being associated with these people, later
made to look so terrible. Even Guy banister, poor fellow, is turned
into a drunkard and made to look like slime. Well he did drink,,but he
was sick, there was somethignthe matter with him. he acted as if he
had pain. he had been destroyed by the corrupt police of New orleans
that he had come against, and he was getting old. He had a woman who
worshiped him (Dellphine) and he had a very close relationshoip with
Jack S. martin (We called him after he turned on Dave, when we were
mad at him, "jack S Martin, stressing the s so it sounded like "jack
ass"..). he's lucky Guy didn;t kill him for what he did, but more on
that later, you can guess at a lot of iot from the words "library
card."
bye--i will be in New York for a few days--out of reach, sorry. take
care. -j-.
p.ps and back in NY just a few days after that, again, too.....
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
Matt Allison was a researcher who met with Judyth and briefly
advocated her cause. After Martin Shackelford, Allison was one of the
first "insiders" to post some information on her claims.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e987c2514e8f9606?hl=en&dmode=source
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
From: atlasre...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd)
Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: 2000/10/20
Message-ID: <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 683916329
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
X-Admin: n...@aol.com
As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
I will, and you can make your own judgements.
SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
at this point.
First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
recently found evidence of in the archives.
4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
just skyrocketed."
Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
working for Reily.
Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
remember was
connected with the government in helping
"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
induced it in mice.
She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
for awhile.
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d343afaada03c3b6?hl=en&dmode=source
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
From: dlif...@my-deja.com
Subject: Re: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: 2000/10/20
Message-ID: <8sqfa7$tnc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 683951321
References: <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client
216.192.59.109
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Oct 20 22:00:43 2000 GMT
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdlifton
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Mac_PowerPC)
Please do supply archival references for this claim:
"3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
recently found evidence of in the archives."
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b1fe640d4c9ed7e0?hl=en&dmode=source
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
Path: supernews.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!
hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-
hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-
mail
From: dlif...@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 04:23:32 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 549
Message-ID: <8sr5o1$ec2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.50.8
X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Oct 21 04:23:32 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Mac_PowerPC)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client
216.192.50.8
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdlifton
RE: "Some of Ms. Baker's account," by Matt Allison, (aka Atlas Record)
What follows is a line by line reproduction of Judyth Baker¹s story, as
posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added in
square brackets:
Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Atlasrecrd <atlasre...@aol.com>
As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this story
for himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton
won't pony up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
[OK, let¹s do that.]
Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that
everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has
the right to keep something like this secret at this point.
[True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the lady who
was secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
[So she worked there, right? So what?]
She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
[What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives and in
the 26 volumes? Or writings, in Oswald¹s hand, that have never seen the
light of day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on
e-bay, and make a pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from
Oswald to anyone might fetch thousands of dollars.]
2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack Martin's
boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
[To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her study of the
record. She¹s like an idiot-savant when it comes to that. She studies
the records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds
back, and then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds" the
"corroboration."]
I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru stuff at
the archives.
[Exactly. See what I mean? That¹s exactly what this lady does. You
probably found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because
of the way the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have
experienced it as "corroboration". This is the essence of her whole m.o.
(And I¹m curious: did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
[IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense. Kerry
Thornley never met Marina.]
that have never been printed anywhere.
[that¹s right . . .the same m.o. as I was talking about just above; And
now, here it comes, folks. . . ]
and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
[Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina is in some
Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it
somewhere on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that
part of the case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is
now at the archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
[Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not
identified.
. . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( )
that
Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
[Time out! A serious question‹one of format.]
[The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean that LHO
"read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that Oswald had
the libretto‹i.e. a written copy of the text of this opera?
CONTINUING. . .
( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then ( )
said,
"What color was it?"
[Was what? A libretto? Sheet music for this opera? Or what? Just what
is being referred to here?? FYI: There is no Queen of Spades libretto in
the 26 volumes. Perhaps its at the Archives, as part of the FBI evidence.
Is such a document there? And did someone obtain a copy and show it to
Judyth? Or did she obtain a libretto from a store? I know I obtained one,
many years ago.]
CONTINUING:
Judyth said, "Gray."
[i.e. she has now identified the color of a document which, as far as the
official record is concerned, does not exist; but let¹s go on. . . ]
CONTINUING. . .
( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is nowhere to
be found. "
[It sure isn¹t. What "information"? Is someone claiming that Oswald
had the libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswald¹s
copy of the libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing
about any such libretto in LHO¹s possession. I never heard that one
before. And it certainly is not in the existing record, by which I mean
the 26 volumes and the CD¹s that I am aware of. So what are we to make
of what comes next.]
CONTINUING:
The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only
five people could have known about it."
[Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a
libretto?
And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the other
three?
Even the arithmetic doesn¹t make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and
Marina. .
" adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
"I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
[Oh, brother: First of all. . . I don¹t understand how one navigates
from knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or
anything else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact
that a female has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not
mean she is having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start
carrying librettos along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
[ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked about
here, and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because
there sure is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But
more generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. .
this is still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me
all about how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswald¹s
listening to Queen of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in
detail in McMillan.]
[Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker, Judyth was
Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer research in
high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were
sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
[OK. . . let¹s accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do not
understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and went to
literature where, at this late date, she still doesn¹t have her PhD]
She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and
began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O.
to work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
[Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein working at
the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what is the
answer?]
Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
[First of all, what was Monaghan¹s function at Reilly, and what, if
anything, does it have to do with his being a former FBI agent? But OK. .
. so where does that lead?]
He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner was familiar
with this young prodigy's work.
[Wonderful. But where does that lead?]
And Ochsner you'll remember was connected with the government in helping
"with the medical side of subversive activities".
[OK. . . but how is that connected with Judyth, much less Lee?]
In 1963 this meant trying to kill Castro.
[Oh really? Well, how did the plot work?]
Ochsner was part of a group that was trying to figure out a way to kill
Castro with lung cancer.
[Is there any evidence for this? Like, in the Church Comm. Hearings? That
lung cancer was used as a bio weapon??]
And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
[Please do explain.]
Miss Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer cells
(which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and was brought to
N.O.
[Wait a minute. You¹re saying that the US Government, and specifically,
the covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer project?]
Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but for a
project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
induced it in mice.
[Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice (so
you say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and hired
this 16 year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her
techniques which worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used
against Castro??]
[ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA didn¹t
use the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical facility.
They used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of
concealment?]
[Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why wouldn¹t
she be put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
[Do you realize how improbable‹no, how ridiculous‹this sounds? Is this
the essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . I¹m just quoting your own
account):
She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
[well, ok; but that doesn¹t prove anything. And of what relevance is
it?]
I've seen where they both lived.
[Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us you¹re a history buff,
of sorts.]
They were both hired on the same day, . . .
[So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always trying to
inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which to
build her edifice.]
and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing infested
Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
[Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all this
was part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just six
weeks later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
machinery??
[Don¹t you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing
infested, could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and
said, "See that kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly?
Well, let him be. Don¹t bother him. This job¹s just a cover for our
plot to kill Castro. . . you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on
the first floor, where we manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
[But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going to oil
it? Replies the manager: "If there¹s a problem, call me. *I¹ll* oil
the machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to carry
the cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
[Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need the
"cover" of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing
off his facilities, did he say things like, "Now, here¹s the room where
we do our new Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You can¹t go in there!
We¹re doing lung cancer work in there!]
CONTINUING:
Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
[her evidence for that?]
she can only speculate which.
[I¹ll say. So can a lot of people.]
After his bogus defection from Russia
[Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO Russia., . " He
defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from" Russia "to"
the U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but there¹s a relationship
between use of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake
does make one wonder.]
CONTINUING:
"After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie
bona-fides intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
[Well, ok; that¹s a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what do you
mean by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
[Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please explain: What
is "this"? What I think you¹re trying to say is that he continues
pretending to be a Red, right?]
[Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the biological
weapon described above.
[Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian Brand? Did
he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more tasty?]
When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
[We¹re talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the
Embassy, where Oswald stormed out? ]
he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
[In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old Mexican
bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when carrying
biological samples? You¹d think someone would have provided some sort
of chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept
them in the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way?
Tupperware? Or what?]
He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy would end
up having to be.
[This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please explain
the logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something like, "If
we can¹t kill Arafat, then we¹ll have to kill Barak??" I don¹t get
it, but perhaps Judyth does.]
There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
[I¹m chewing. I¹m chewing. But this doesn¹t taste very good. At
all!]
Please. . . punch that "reset button" and do give us some more!
DSL
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b356420a362b6226?hl=en&dmode=source
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
From: mshack <msh...@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: 2000/10/21
Message-ID: <39F146...@concentric.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 684071436
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
<8sr5o1$ec2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: msh...@concentric.net
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Surprise, surprise.
Mr. Lifton tacitly concedes that there might be some evidence he doesn't
know about relating to Judyth. He seeks to theorize that Judyth "found"
her information in the record, but this would require a range of research
that Judyth has been in no position to carry out. He has gone from
theorizing based on misinterpretation of fragments, to theorizing based on
other theorizing. This is pretty desperate stuff. Yes, there are materials
written by Oswald, unpublished previously. Yes, the "Queen of Spades"
libretto volume is important--but clearly David has no idea of its
significance--unlike the questioner, who had talked at length with both
Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald. No wonder David was puzzled--this is all new
to him, so he speculates wildly. The fact that Lifton is asking the
questions he asks in his long posts suggest clearly that he didn't learn
as much as he thought he did from his famous phone call--and really
doesn't have a clue. He even has her age very wrong. And he goes downhill
from.
And yet, he still expects us to hand him more information on demand,
despite the fundamentally dishonest way he has handled what he has so far.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by
those
who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
In response to the above, an e-mail correspondent of mine pointed out
that there are several indexed references to THE QUEEN OF SPADES in
Priscilla Johnson McMillan's book, MARINA AND LEE; for example, from
p. 124:
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
Alix' favorite opera was Tchaikowsky's 'The Queen of Spades,' based on
a short story by Pushkin. He saw the movie of the opera countless
times and played it on the phonograph again and again. One aria, in
particular, he played as many as twenty times a night:
I love you, I love you beyond measure.
I cannot conceive of life without you.
I would perform a heroic deed of unheard-of prowess for your
sake.
Marina suspected that her husband associated the aria with some former
love, and she grew jealous. She must have shown it, for Alix began to
play the record only when she was out, and changed it quickly the
moment he heard her footstep on the stair. Marina soon found a name
to attach to her jealousy [Oswald's Russian associate, Rimma
Shirokova].
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
My correspondent also pointed out that a footnote on p. 476 refers to
Warren Commission Exhibit 53 (published in 16 H 191), a fragment of
the aria, in Russian, in Oswald's handwriting. The WC included a
translator's note, presumably from the FBI,
suggesting that this was an attempt to reproduce the text of the aria
from memory. McMillan writes:
<QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
After the assassination, a fragment of the aria was found among
Oswald's belongings. It is in Oswald's handwriting, in Russian, and it
contains omissions, mistakes, and indecipherable phrases. It is
probably an attempt to reproduce the words by listening to the
recording. [Priscilla Johnson McMillan, MARINA AND LEE (New York:
Harper & Row, 1977, p. 476, fn. 2.]
[...]
After the assassination, when Oswald had indeed performed a deed of
"unheard-of-prowess," Marina again thought that he had done it to
impress Rimma. It was a thought that may have been an unconscious
attempt to repress the fear that he had done it to impress her
[Marina]. It is possible, however, that Oswald did, as Marina
suspects, associate the opera, and the aria, with Rimma; it is quite
likely that that when he first saw THE QUEEN OF SPADES in Moscow,
Rimma went with him as his interpreter." [McMillan, p, 476, fn. 3.]
<QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
Dave
http://www.jfk-online.com/judythmenu.html
koved
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e987c2514e8f960...
>
> <QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
>
> From: dlif...@my-deja.com
> Subject: Re: some of Ms. Baker's account
> Date: 2000/10/20
> Message-ID: <8sqfa7$tn...@nnrp1.deja.com>#1/1
> X-Deja-AN: 683951321
> References: <20001020155414.26652.00000...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
> X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client
> 216.192.59.109
> Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
> X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Oct 20 22:00:43 2000 GMT
> X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdlifton
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Mac_PowerPC)
>
> Please do supply archival references for this claim:
>
> "3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>
> that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>
> recently found evidence of in the archives."
>
> <QUOTE OFF>-----------------------------------------
>
>
> <QUOTE ON>------------------------------------------
>
> Path: supernews.google.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!
> hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-
> hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-
> From: dlif...@my-deja.com
> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
> Subject: Re: some of Ms. Baker's account
> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 04:23:32 GMT
> Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
> Lines: 549
> References: <20001020155414.26652.00000...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
It appears that if evidence does not exist in the 'official record' it
is not relevant? There is no attempt here to differentiate between a
witness describing their experience and somebody trying to 'inject'
themselves into historical situations. That is very sloppy.