Newly Discovered Motorcade Photo
John McAdams
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Peter Fokes
McAdams) wrote:
>A lady sent this to me. Her mother took it.
>
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
That's strange. The photo looks so familiar.
Maybe someone else took a photo from the same angle.
Has it been published somewhere before?
Why is the driver's door open?
There is a guy in the second row 4 over from the left side who kinda
looks like Obama! (For the literal minded, please I know it is not
Obama.)
But there must be a conspiracist somewhere out there who will tell us
the guy in the black hat is Jack Ruby! Nada .....
>
>.John
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Chuck Schuyler
It's amazing to see how nice everyone dressed back then. Men in suits
or button shirts, dress slacks--no jeans, women in formal dresses,
hats, scarves, etc.
No one is overweight.
When did we become a nation of slobs?
claviger
Several things obvious from this photo: there is a very enthusiastic
response from the crowd, Governor Connelly is sitting further inboard than
President Kennedy, and the President's jacket covers his shirt collar.
There is a SS agent on the back left bumper. Wonder why Greer has his
door open?
black...@aol.com
2 things strike me (not to start a debate...):
JFK's jacket does look like it has a small fold at the top back.
Despite a height disparity, Connally is sitting a bit lower than JFK.
slats
@news.supernews.com:
Just checked my files. That photo's been in my general collection since
December 13, 2003, so it can't be that "new."
drummist1965
This isn't "new". It has been published many times, over the years.
John McAdams
Well that's just super. :-(
I gathered from the woman who sent it to me that her mother shot it.
But I just checked the original e-mail, and got this:
>> Hello, I am Dianne XXXXXXX, I have an old photo that belonged to my
>> Mother. It was taken 3 minutes before the assasination of John F.
>> Kennedy. My Mother worked downtown Dallas at the time, and she said
>> that she believed that in the photo is a picture of Oswald and Ruby in
>> the crowd. When the people came into her work place to get all of the
>> film of pictures that were taken she did not give them hers and was
>> afraid to ever show it to anyone through the years. My Mother has since
>> passed away and I have the photo now. I have searched for a picture like
>> it but have had no luck. I was wondering if you could maybe give me some
>> advice as what I need to do with it.
So it seems I *assumed* that her mother took the photo, when it might
very well be a photo she clipped from a magazine.
I don't see Ruby and Oswald in the crowd.
John McAdams
wrote:
>On Feb 16, 2:23=A0pm, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
>> A lady sent this to me. =A0Her mother took it.
>>
>> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
>>
>> .John
>>
>> --
>> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> This isn't "new". It has been published many times, over the years.
>
Yep, I'm afraid you are right.
Do you have any idea what the original source is?
Peter Fokes
wrote:
Well, this crowd is standing in front of the Adolphus Hotel, and it's
a work day, so it's not surprising quite a few folks are dressed
nicely.
Don't you think Lady Gaga looked lovely at the Grammies?
hehe
PF
bigdog
The photo gives us a good sense for how much farther inside JBC was
than JFK. Whereas JBC's right elbow barely reaches the side of the
limo, JFK's right elbow extends beyond the side of the limo.
claviger
Your right, good observation. Governor Connelly looks like he's
sitting in a hole in front of the President, even though he was quite
a bit taller than JFK.
David Von Pein
That photo is not "new" at all. I saw it online years ago.
That particular picture, in fact, is one that I have used in the past
to illustrate Governor Connally's "inboard" position in the limousine:
http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com
The larger version posted by Professor McAdams, however, is a much
better and higher-quality version of the picture than the one I
downloaded years ago off the Internet.
We can also see from that photo just how cramped JFK's legs are. In
the smaller and more pixelated version that I linked to above, it's
much harder to tell what position Kennedy's legs are in. But the
clearer picture makes it quite easy to see that there certainly wasn't
much leg room between Kennedy and Connally.
bigdog
My guess is that Greer is using the open door to force the spectators
back as the limo crawled through the crowded streets. Even making them
back up a few feet could keep the occupants from getting jostled by
the well wishers.
John McAdams
McAdams) wrote:
>A lady sent this to me. Her mother took it.
>
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
>
>.John
I got this from Gary Mack:
<Quote on>
John, I receive a phone call or email at least once a month from
someone else who has that picture and claims they or a relative took
it. The picture was actually shot by the house photographer of the
Adolphus Hotel from their Main Street balcony. His name, which was
stamped on the back of original prints, was Francis, if I remember
correctly. Many copies were sold by the hotel and others and the
original negative's whereabouts is unknown, even to the hotel (which
is under different ownership now).
<Quote off>
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
wrote:
As you can see from other posts in thread, I got suckered.
Well not entirely, since the woman who sent it to me said her mother
owned it, and didn't really say she took it. I made some unwarranted
assumptions.
If I can find out who owns the rights, I'll try to license it legally.
But frankly, if nobody claims to own the rights, I might just treat it
as public domain.
I have a much higher resolution version on my hard drive.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
davidemerling
> Why is the driver's door open?
I've seen this photo before - but I can't recall when/where. With this
photo was an explanation for the door being slightly opened. This was
something the driver routinely did when the limousine was moving very
slowly with crowds close to the vehicle - as appears to be the case in
this photograph.
The idea was that the doors could be quickly opened further while the car
sped up - creating a battering ram to clear people away from the car
should the need arise to make the president more safe.
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
Greg Jaynes
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
>
> .John
Here's what I noticed at a glance;
5 women wearing scarves "babushka"
1 man getting a closeup picture.
Jacket bunch.
Motorcycle front wheel brake hub on left side. McLain said his was
opposite of other motorcycles. So... his was on the right?
Flowers Seating positions
Left antennae up. Right antennae down.
Motorcycle cop positioned between JFK and crowd, not laying back.
Mr. Ball: Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in
the motorcade?
Mr. Martin: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the
car you were to keep?
Mr. Martin: Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball: What were those instructions?
Mr. Martin: They [plural=Secret Service]instructed us that they didn't
want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride
to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper.
Mr. Ball: I think that's all, Officer. [?!]
black...@aol.com
I seem to recall from other films (DCA?) that Greer sometimes opened
his door a bit to "brush back" people leaning too closely into the
path of the limo.
slats
news:9q5pl6tgv08ihqqtc...@4ax.com:
You can see a man taking a still photo of JFK from about six feet away.
AFAIK, that photo never surfaced. Makes you wonder how many other
uncirculated snapshots are floating around out there.
Card53
> We can also see from that photo just how cramped JFK's legs are.
They also appear to be cramped up against the door. If he was in a similar position when he was shot, that could explain his slump to the left. There's no other way he could have fallen, regardless of the direction from which he was shot. Watch the Z-film in real time, keeping in mind that his legs are cramped to the right, and you'll see what I mean.
John L (frequent lurker)
Don Roberdeau
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 19:23:28 GMT, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John
.... Good Day John, & Gary ....
Yes, that photo has been available for many years.
Gary.... Was 'Francis' the photographers last name, or, his first
name?
John.... Thank You for providing a very good, savable copy.
One of my favorite movie quotes (this one about making an
'assumption(s)' ) ....
" 'Assumption' is the 'mother' of all f**k-ups."
(EVERETT McGILL, as the leader of the criminal mercenaries, "Under
Siege 2: Dark Territory" 1995
.... in the movie McGILL also memorably said, " 'Chance' favors the
prepared mind.")
Best Regards in Research,
Don
Donald Roberdeau
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly
For your considerations....
Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and
Assassination Evidence, Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding Researchers
Discoveries and Considerations
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html
Dealey Plaza Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations,
Witnesses, Films & Photos, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories,
Important information & Considerations, in One Convenient
Resource
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif
Visual Report: "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: while
JFK was Hidden Under the 'magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif
Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus,
Garbage-In, Garbage-Out
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8543/realityvscad.gif
Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap:
West, Ultrafast, and Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html
File: President KENNEDY Assassination Research, Maps, & Discoveries
for Your Considerations
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/droberdeau
T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore
for the United States:
Anthony Marsh
No harm no foul. Her mother may own a book that has that photo in it.
Anthony Marsh
>
>
> That photo is not "new" at all. I saw it online years ago.
>
> That particular picture, in fact, is one that I have used in the past
> to illustrate Governor Connally's "inboard" position in the limousine:
>
Oh really? You mean the one which has Connally's right arm over the side
of the limo exactly like JFK's? Well then, that proves that Connally
must have been directly in front of JFK unless he had much longer arms.
Anthony Marsh
Brilliant. If you had looked at my limo diagrams you could have seen
that Connally's jump seat was three inches lower than Kennedy's seat.
The Secret Service worked this all out for the WC in 1964. Connally was
an inch and a half taller than Kennedy, but his seat was three inches
lower than Kennedy's so the end result is that Connally was an inch and
half lower than Kennedy. Without being lower your SBT has no chance at all.
David Von Pein
>>> "Oh really? You mean the one which has Connally's right arm over the side of the limo exactly like JFK's?" <<<
Connally's arm isn't extended as far out beyond the door as
JFK's....as someone has already mentioned in this very thread
earlier.
Naturally, Tony ignored that good observation.
Anthony Marsh
>
> John L (frequent lurker)
>
Except that JFK was not in that same position when the shot hit him in the
head. He had leaned forward and to the left after being shot in the back.
The other factor that you have to remember is that he was wearing a very
stiff back brace.
Bud
Anthony Marsh
I was just having fun hoisting you guys on your own petard.
Card53
> On 2/17/2011 1:29 PM, Card53 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:11:39 PM UTC-6, David Von Pein wrote:
> >
> >> We can also see from that photo just how cramped JFK's legs are.
> >
>
> > They also appear to be cramped up against the door. If he was in a
> similar position when he was shot, that could explain his slump to the
> left. There's no other way he could have fallen, regardless of the
> direction from which he was shot. Watch the Z-film in real time, keeping
> in mind that his legs are cramped to the right, and you'll see what I
> mean.
>
> >
> > John L (frequent lurker)
> >
>
> Except that JFK was not in that same position when the shot hit him in the
> head. He had leaned forward and to the left after being shot in the back.
His upper body may have moved, but his legs would have remained in the same position.
It looked like a tight squeeze in that seat, with little or no room to move his legs directly in front of him. Maybe he did shift leg position after the picture under discussion was taken, but it's unlikely that he would choose such an uncomfortable position.
> The other factor that you have to remember is that he was wearing a very
> stiff back brace.
My point was that his leg position virtually ensured a fall to the left. The stiffness of the brace would not have affected the direction of the fall.
John L
Anthony Marsh
> On Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:33:47 PM UTC-6, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 2/17/2011 1:29 PM, Card53 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:11:39 PM UTC-6, David Von Pein wrote:
>>>
>>>> We can also see from that photo just how cramped JFK's legs are.
>>>
>>
>>> They also appear to be cramped up against the door. If he was in a
>> similar position when he was shot, that could explain his slump to the
>> left. There's no other way he could have fallen, regardless of the
>> direction from which he was shot. Watch the Z-film in real time, keeping
>> in mind that his legs are cramped to the right, and you'll see what I
>> mean.
>>
>>>
>>> John L (frequent lurker)
>>>
>>
>> Except that JFK was not in that same position when the shot hit him in the
>> head. He had leaned forward and to the left after being shot in the back.
>
> His upper body may have moved, but his legs would have remained in the same position.
>
> It looked like a tight squeeze in that seat, with little or no room to move his legs directly in front of him. Maybe he did shift leg position after the picture under discussion was taken, but it's unlikely that he would choose such an uncomfortable position.
>
It was a tight squeeze. When the limo arrived at Parkland they were not
able to get Kennedy out of the back seat until they flipped up the jump
seat.
>> The other factor that you have to remember is that he was wearing a very
>> stiff back brace.
>
> My point was that his leg position virtually ensured a fall to the left. The stiffness of the brace would not have affected the direction of the fall.
>
> John L
>
The stiffness of the back brace limits how far he could lean to his left
and forward. That's its job.
Gerry Simone
the crowds and the edge of the limo. Sort of forcing them away.
But David, wasn't there a motorcycle patrolman sweeping ahead? I suppose
the crowd surged behind that motorcycle (I assume there was one in front of
Greer).
"davidemerling" <davide...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f267d613-335d-4309...@n11g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone
"Chuck Schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:dbc64717-1a6d-457c...@t19g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 16, 1:23 pm, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> A lady sent this to me. Her mother took it.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
>
> .John
>
> --
> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
It's amazing to see how nice everyone dressed back then. Men in suits
Gerry Simone
(even if it was, it wouldn't have accounted for the difference in the
location of back cound vs. clothing bullet hole).
I still don't think that if a bullet exited JFK as alleged, that it would
have travelled through JBC in the manner alleged, judging from this photo.
<black...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4bb5ef68-fceb-4db2...@u24g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 16, 2:23 pm, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> A lady sent this to me. Her mother took it.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/limo_motorcade.htm
>
> .John
>
> --
> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
2 things strike me (not to start a debate...):
Gerry Simone
inboard, the bullet path doesn't work like the WC says so).
I still see no alignment a la SBT.
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4d5c...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Gerry Simone
behind and to the right of JFK. Only God knows how many other pics are out
there.
"slats" <oj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i817p.624463$Qg.2...@en-nntp-04.dc1.easynews.com...
Gerry Simone
lifeless body after the mortal wound to have caused him to fall to the left,
but his legs' position can't account for the violent backward thrust.
"Card53" <Car...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:296b5a29-de66-45a9...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> The position of his legs may have created a natural imbalance in his
> lifeless body after the mortal wound to have caused him to fall to the left,
> but his legs' position can't account for the violent backward thrust.
>
> "Card53"<Car...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:296b5a29-de66-45a9...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
> On Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:33:47 PM UTC-6, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 2/17/2011 1:29 PM, Card53 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:11:39 PM UTC-6, David Von Pein wrote:
>>>
>>>> We can also see from that photo just how cramped JFK's legs are.
>>>
>>
>>> They also appear to be cramped up against the door. If he was in a
>> similar position when he was shot, that could explain his slump to the
>> left. There's no other way he could have fallen, regardless of the
>> direction from which he was shot. Watch the Z-film in real time, keeping
>> in mind that his legs are cramped to the right, and you'll see what I
>> mean.
>>
>>>
>>> John L (frequent lurker)
>>>
>>
>> Except that JFK was not in that same position when the shot hit him in the
>> head. He had leaned forward and to the left after being shot in the back.
>
> His upper body may have moved, but his legs would have remained in the same
> position.
>
You don't know that for a fact, but you can assume it to be true because
we don't have any firm evidence either way.
> It looked like a tight squeeze in that seat, with little or no room to move
> his legs directly in front of him. Maybe he did shift leg position after the
> picture under discussion was taken, but it's unlikely that he would choose
> such an uncomfortable position.
>
Yes, it was a tight squeeze, but the designers of the limo did not make
it a deliberately impossible position. The limo was stretched from its
stock condition specifically to be the most luxurious limo ever created
for a President. Maybe you should go to Dearborn and look at the replica
and see for yourself just how much room he had.
I am satisfied with the hundreds of photos taken before and after Dallas.
>> The other factor that you have to remember is that he was wearing a very
>> stiff back brace.
>
> My point was that his leg position virtually ensured a fall to the left. The
> stiffness of the brace would not have affected the direction of the fall.
>
Well, I like your idea, but since he was already leaning to the left I
don't see your point. If the only point of your exercise is to deny that
a shot came from the grassy knoll, it is false logic.
> John L
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
> JBC is a bigger man. He also has broader shoulders no (so even if he's
> inboard, the bullet path doesn't work like the WC says so).
>
Cute. I've never seen that argument before. Yes, we already knew that
Connally was 6'2" tall versus Kennedy at 6'1/2" tall. But how can you
quantify how much bigger Connally was? Can you measure the width of his
shoulders and compare that to Kennedy? Do you remember what size jackets
they wore? I don't see how the wide shoulders would make all the
difference. Can you diagram this for me?
What's the matter with using my diagrams or the HSCA or some of the others?
> I still see no alignment a la SBT.
>
Gee, you're not trying hard enough. If I hold up four fingers can you
try hard enough to see five, citizen?
Anthony Marsh
> (even if it was, it wouldn't have accounted for the difference in the
> location of back cound vs. clothing bullet hole).
>
The fabric below the collar was riding up and over the bottom of the
collar. The encroachment was only about one inch so the amount of fabric
pushed up was about 2 inches. That is not enough to make the SBT work.
Everyone in the WC knew that. So they had to lie about the evidence. WC
apologists simply lied about how much the jacket was bunched up and
pointed to photos showing it at another time bunched up a lot more. But no
jacket is going to bunch up six inches.
> I still don't think that if a bullet exited JFK as alleged, that it would
> have travelled through JBC in the manner alleged, judging from this photo.
>
Are you open to alternative Single Bullet Theories?
Anthony Marsh
> Exactly my thoughts on the open door. It was to create more space between
> the crowds and the edge of the limo. Sort of forcing them away.
>
Do we assume that this only happened when the limo was going very slowly
or actually stopped? Maybe there are other photos showing it happen at
other points of the motorcade. But I seriously doubt that the driver was
using it as a weapon to knock over the little kids who wanted to talk to
JFK.
> But David, wasn't there a motorcycle patrolman sweeping ahead? I suppose
> the crowd surged behind that motorcycle (I assume there was one in front of
> Greer).
>
Much too far ahead. In other motorcades there are two flanking escort
cycles directly in front of the limo and two directly behind. In other
motorcades there were SS agents walking behind the limo on either side.
Card53
For years, we were fed the "Back and to the left" mantra as evidence of a grassy-knoll shooter. My point was merely that his fall to the left can't be used as evidence for a shot from ANY direction. Whether he was shot from the TSBD, the Dal-Tex Building, the grassy knoll, the overpass, the sewer, by Greer, Orson Welles, or Don Ameche, that's the way he was going to fall, regardless. The direction of his fall is useless as evidence no matter what side of the debate you're on.
And, yes, he's already leaning to the left because that's the only way he could lean -- assuming his legs were in the same position, which seems a reasonable assumption. He fell to the left because he was leaning to the left because his legs were cramped to his right. It's all in the house that Jack built, if you will.
John L
Anthony Marsh
Ok, then don't fall for it. But just you debunking one faulty premise
does not destroy the conclusion when others can still reach that
conclusion without using that faulty premise.
Jason Burke
The problem with the CT crowd is that EVERYTHING is based on a faulty