Hearing-impaired "witness" prominently featured in TMWKK
b garrett meadows
witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
on this witness.
Thank you.
ShutterBun
Thalia
wrote:
A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
aslo. I think his Hoffman's evidence is authentic. This might help you in
your study:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=170714
jas
If those men, dressed in white no less, were behind the fence juggling the
rifle, why didn't Bowers, or anyone else for that matter, see them?
There was nothing to "interpret" in his testimony. It was clear what he
said he saw that day, what? some 10-20 years later?, and with ever-
changing versions?
What he said was bunk
Thalia
There WERE people behind the fence, there were cigarette butts there, and
someone ID'd himself as a secret service agent to a Dallas cop. Who was
he? No-one knows. Bowers spoke of a "commotion" in the area at the time of
the shooting. Hoffman DID spoke of what he saw and the time of the
shooting, went to the Dallas Police, who funnily enough, weren't
interested in his testimony, and he was warned by his family (one of his
relatives was a policeman not to say anything) His story has not changed -
have you even read the link I posted??
John McAdams
>On Nov 27, 6:39锟絘m, jas <lle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 8:39锟絘m, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Nov 26, 12:26锟絧m, b garrett meadows <bgarrettmead...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a hearing-impaired
>> > > witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
>> > > on this witness.
>> > > Thank you.
>>
>> > A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
>> > were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
>> > interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
>> > aslo. 锟絀 think his Hoffman's evidence is authentic. This might help you in
>> > your study:
>>
>> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
>>
>> If those men, dressed in white no less, were behind the fence juggling the
>> rifle, why didn't Bowers, or anyone else for that matter, see them?
>>
>> There was nothing to "interpret" in his testimony. It was clear what he
>> said he saw that day, what? some 10-20 years later?, and with ever-
>> changing versions?
>>
>> What he said was bunk
>
>There WERE people behind the fence, there were cigarette butts there, and
>someone ID'd himself as a secret service agent to a Dallas cop. Who was
>he? No-one knows.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ssknoll.txt
>Bowers spoke of a "commotion" in the area at the time of
>the shooting.
Yes, and he described two men who were *not* Suit Man and Railroad
Man.
>Hoffman DID spoke of what he saw and the time of the
>shooting, went to the Dallas Police, who funnily enough, weren't
>interested in his testimony,
And we know that how?
Oh! I see. Hoffman says so.
>and he was warned by his family (one of his
>relatives was a policeman not to say anything) His story has not changed -
>have you even read the link I posted??
The testimony of Sam Holland really does in Hoffman.
When Hoffman and his buddies ran around behind the Stockade Fence,
they certainly would have seen Suit Man retreating along the fence and
handing the rifle off to the Railroad Man.
But then, Suit Man could not have retreated along the fence.
Just watch Holland's testimony.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/video/holland.ram
Now . . . Jean Davison has corrected you on the "no brain matter went
forward" stuff.
Don't you think it's time you got a little bit skeptical about what
you read in conspiracy books?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 26, 8:39 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 12:26 pm, b garrett meadows<bgarrettmead...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a hearing-impaired
>>> witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
>>> on this witness.
>>> Thank you.
>>
>> A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
>> were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
>> interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
>> aslo. I think his Hoffman's evidence is authentic. This might help you in
>> your study:
>>
>> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
>
> If those men, dressed in white no less, were behind the fence juggling the
> rifle, why didn't Bowers, or anyone else for that matter, see them?
>
Who was dressed in white?
Anthony Marsh
> On 26 Nov 2009 20:56:57 -0500, Thalia<thali...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Nov 26, 8:39 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 26, 12:26 pm, b garrett meadows<bgarrettmead...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a hearing-impaired
>>>>> witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
>>>>> on this witness.
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>> A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
>>>> were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
>>>> interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
That's silly. You are saying there was no one there? Officer Joe Smith
got to the Parking lot before anyone else and there was one other person
there, a fake Secret Service agent.
> But then, Suit Man could not have retreated along the fence.
>
> Just watch Holland's testimony.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/video/holland.ram
>
> Now . . . Jean Davison has corrected you on the "no brain matter went
> forward" stuff.
>
> Don't you think it's time you got a little bit skeptical about what
> you read in conspiracy books?
You're never skeptical of Bugliosi or Posner.
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
ShutterBun
> On 26 Nov 2009 20:56:57 -0500, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Nov 27, 6:39 am, jas <lle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 26, 8:39 am, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Nov 26, 12:26 pm, b garrett meadows <bgarrettmead...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > > I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a hearing-impaired
> >> > > witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
> >> > > on this witness.
> >> > > Thank you.
>
> >> > A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
> >> > were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
> >> > interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
The game-breaker for Hoffman is that he first said he saw "whatever"
from his location on Stemmons, reported it to the FBI, what, 3 or 4
years later? Then 2 hours after reporting it to the FBI, revisited
the site and determined he couldn't possibly have seen it, due to the
angles/structures involved. In other words: The man "imagined"
seeing an event 3 years prior, then IMMEDIATELY recanted. 30 years
later he tells his "embellished" original story, neglecting to mention
his recantation.
Note to Thalia: less imagination/interpretation is warranted here.
Stick to the facts. You'd expect as much from the Warren Commission,
wouldn't you?
jas
I don't know. Read somewhere Hoffman said there were 2 men wearing white.
Anthony Marsh
Please don't do that. You are not allowed to admit that a witness
reported something conspiratorial to the FBI. You are supposed to claim
that he only came out with it 40 years later for a TV, just for attention.
> the site and determined he couldn't possibly have seen it, due to the
> angles/structures involved. In other words: The man "imagined"
More nonsense. Like Posner with his billboard in the way. Pure fiction.
His supposed location would have a clear view.
> seeing an event 3 years prior, then IMMEDIATELY recanted. 30 years
Show me, quote where and when he recanted.
Thalia
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you even bother to read my link? Probably not. .John Mcadams got
involved so I know Hoffman makes Lone Nuts uncomfortable. From my research
Hoffman has stuck to his story, his family backs him up, and the problems
associated with his testimony is that he is deaf and uses sign language.
John McAdams
>On Nov 27, 11:38锟絧m, ShutterBun <shutter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 6:04锟絧m, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Note to Thalia: 锟絣ess imagination/interpretation is warranted here.
>> Stick to the facts. 锟結ou'd expect as much from the Warren Commission,
>> wouldn't you?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
>Do you even bother to read my link? Probably not. .John Mcadams got
>involved so I know Hoffman makes Lone Nuts uncomfortable.
Oh, my. So you'll believe anything that "makes Lone Nuts
uncomfortable."
Do you actually care what the truth is? Or is it that you have chosen
up sides, and you'll believe anything that benefits Team Buff.
>From my research
>Hoffman has stuck to his story, his family backs him up, and the problems
>associated with his testimony is that he is deaf and uses sign language.
Did you bother to look at the Sam Holland video on my page?
His little scenario with Suit Man retreating down the fence and
tossing off the rifle to Railroad Man simply could not have happened.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
> On 28 Nov 2009 11:16:06 -0500, Thalia<thali...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Nov 26, 6:04 pm, John McAdams<john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note to Thalia: less imagination/interpretation is warranted here.
>>> Stick to the facts. You'd expect as much from the Warren Commission,
>>> wouldn't you?- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>
>> Do you even bother to read my link? Probably not. .John Mcadams got
>> involved so I know Hoffman makes Lone Nuts uncomfortable.
>
>
> Oh, my. So you'll believe anything that "makes Lone Nuts
> uncomfortable."
>
> Do you actually care what the truth is? Or is it that you have chosen
> up sides, and you'll believe anything that benefits Team Buff.
>
>> From my research
>> Hoffman has stuck to his story, his family backs him up, and the problems
>> associated with his testimony is that he is deaf and uses sign language.
>
> Did you bother to look at the Sam Holland video on my page?
>
Ed Hoffman's on the Sam Holland video? What's your source?
> His little scenario with Suit Man retreating down the fence and
> tossing off the rifle to Railroad Man simply could not have happened.
>
His story may seem strange, but parts of it may be accurate.
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
There are problems with every witness, including Jackie and the Connallys.
That doesn't mean that they weren't there and that they were liars.
jas
Accurate to whom? Himself?
Mitch Todd
>On Nov 27, 11:38 pm, ShutterBun <shutter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 6:04 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> > On 26 Nov 2009 20:56:57 -0500, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >On Nov 27, 6:39 am, jas <lle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> On Nov 26, 8:39 am, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > b garrett meadows <bgarrettmead...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > >> > > I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a
>> > >> > > hearing-impaired
>> > >> > > witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate
>> > >> > > feedback
>> > >> > > on this witness.
>> > >> > > Thank you.
>>
>> > >> > A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters
>> > >> > who
>> > >> > were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you
>> > >> > use
>> > >> > interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina
>> > >> > Oswald
>> > >> > aslo. I think his Hoffman's evidence is authentic. This might help
>> > >> > you in
>> > >> > your study:
>>
>> > >> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
>
>
>> Note to Thalia: less imagination/interpretation is warranted here.
>> Stick to the facts. You'd expect as much from the Warren Commission,
>> wouldn't you?- Hide quoted text -
>
>involved so I know Hoffman makes Lone Nuts uncomfortable. From my research
>Hoffman has stuck to his story, his family backs him up, and the problems
>associated with his testimony is that he is deaf and uses sign language
The article doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problems with
Hoffman's account. The most important is that other witnesses absolutely
should corroborate Hoffman's story, but do not. It would be very odd for
Lee Bowers not to notice two men running along the backside of the
stockade fence, given the rest of his testimony. More to the point, how do
SM Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into either of the men
Hoffman claims to have observed? Holland, et al, watched to motocade from
the north side of the triple underpass, and quickly made their way into
the parking lot behind the stockade fence. This would have put them on a
collision course with Hoffman's assassins. But no such encounter occurred.
Hoffmnan's story leads to a number of similar holes, like the DPD
officer's report, filed long before Hoffman's story came out, that there
was no one on the overpass where Hoffman claims to have stood.
.
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b141581$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Mitch Todd
news:4b143e3a$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> Bowers "DID" see 3 men Run from the fence to a freight train.
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
In the excerpt you've provided, Bowers says nothing about where the three
men came from, only that he saw "three men running down the tracks several
hunderd yards from the control tower." Hoffman claims that he saw two men
running along the fence to the switchbox (which is near the north end of
the railroad overpass), where they split up in different dirctions.
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b147b30$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Mitch Todd
> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
running from --or in which direction they were running, for that matter. I
also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
You just can't win this hand with the cards you're trying ot play.
tomnln
Bowers previously said he saw men by the fence.
Then, Bowers said he saw 3 men run for the freight train.
Are you suggesting the men running for the freight train came from a UFO?
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b147b30$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
> running from
WHICH direction did Bowers say he was LOOKING??????
--or in which direction they were running,
WHICH direction did Bowers say he was LOOKING??????
for that matter. I
> also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
> mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
> separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
I Already stated that I NEVER Mentioned Ed Hoffman.
You were such a COWARD, that you Snipped that part.
> You just can't win this hand with the cards you're trying ot play.
The "cards" I'm "Playing" are YOUR official evidence/testimony ! ! !
Apparently YOU'RE Not very familiar with them.
You can also support your position here every night if you ever gather the
courage>>>
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
Anthony Marsh
> I mentioned NOTHING of Ed Hoffman.
>
> Bowers previously said he saw men by the fence.
>
> Then, Bowers said he saw 3 men run for the freight train.
>
No, he didn't.
Anthony Marsh
> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
> running from --or in which direction they were running, for that matter. I
> also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
> mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
> separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
>
Show me where Bowers mentions seeing two men AFTER the shooting. What you
may not realize is that different witnesses with different points of view
may see the same suspects at different times in different places. One
witness may see a suspect inside the back robbing it while another witness
may only see the same suspect getting into a car after leaving the bank.
So you point to the witness inside the bank who only saw the suspect
robbing the bank as proof that he didn't get into a car to flee the scene.
Mitch Todd
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4b15a991$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> On 12/1/2009 12:24 AM, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
>> running from --or in which direction they were running, for that matter.
>> I
>> also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
>> mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
>> separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
>>
>
> Show me where Bowers mentions seeing two men AFTER the shooting.
Where did I say that, Tony?
> What you may not realize is that different witnesses with different points
> of view may see the same suspects at different times in different places.
The only problem is that Hoffman and Bowers claim to be looking at the
same place at the same time.
Anthony Marsh
Name the other witnesses who exactly the same point of view as Hoffman
allegedly had.
> Lee Bowers not to notice two men running along the backside of the
> stockade fence, given the rest of his testimony. More to the point, how do
Bowerd did not spend all his time trying to look for the two men.
> SM Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into either of the men
> Hoffman claims to have observed? Holland, et al, watched to motocade from
How do Sam Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into the only
two men in that area at that time, the fake Secret Service agent and DPD
officer Joe Smith? Obiously they weren't there at the same time.
> the north side of the triple underpass, and quickly made their way into
> the parking lot behind the stockade fence. This would have put them on a
> collision course with Hoffman's assassins. But no such encounter occurred.
>
Nonsense. False premises and distorting the testimony.
John McAdams
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> The article doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problems with
>> Hoffman's account. The most important is that other witnesses absolutely
>> should corroborate Hoffman's story, but do not. It would be very odd for
>
>Name the other witnesses who exactly the same point of view as Hoffman
>allegedly had.
>
>> Lee Bowers not to notice two men running along the backside of the
>> stockade fence, given the rest of his testimony. More to the point, how do
>
>Bowerd did not spend all his time trying to look for the two men.
>
>> SM Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into either of the men
>> Hoffman claims to have observed? Holland, et al, watched to motocade from
>
>How do Sam Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into the only
>two men in that area at that time, the fake Secret Service agent and DPD
>officer Joe Smith? Obiously they weren't there at the same time.
>
I'm aware that Smith said that only three people (himself, a deputy,
probably Weitzman, and the "Secret Service agent") were there when he
first got there.
But then, I'm not aware that Holland or any of his buddies (Dodd and
Simmons and one person I don't know) ever said that nobody was there
when they got around behind the Stockade Fence.
If anybody knows about such testimony, I'd like to see it.
>> the north side of the triple underpass, and quickly made their way into
>> the parking lot behind the stockade fence. This would have put them on a
>> collision course with Hoffman's assassins. But no such encounter occurred.
>>
>
>Nonsense. False premises and distorting the testimony.
>
Both the Holland account and the Smith account are trouble for
Hoffman. Whatever the timing, it's essentially impossible to believe
that "Suit Man" could have walked back along the fence and tossed the
rifle off to "Railroad Man" without being seen.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Mitch Todd
> "Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4b14a5db$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
>> running from
>
> WHICH direction did Bowers say he was LOOKING??????
Good question. Wise doesn't say, and we can't assume that Bowers was
staring moon-eyed at the picket fence from the sound of shots to the first
appearance of the tramps.
> --or in which direction they were running,
>
> WHICH direction did Bowers say he was LOOKING??????
Again, good question. Do you have an answer or an assumption?
>> for that matter. I
>> also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
>> mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
>> separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
>
> I Already stated that I NEVER Mentioned Ed Hoffman.
> You were such a COWARD, that you Snipped that part.
I didn't snip anything. You can follow this branch of the thread backwards
and see for yourself. For the record, this thread is all about Hoffman,
what he saw and/or what he didn't. If
>> You just can't win this hand with the cards you're trying ot play.
>
> The "cards" I'm "Playing" are YOUR official evidence/testimony ! ! !
> Apparently YOU'RE Not very familiar with them.
I'm familiar enough to know the difference between what they say vs what
I might want them to say.
Mitch Todd
>I mentioned NOTHING of Ed Hoffman.
Kind of an odd thing in a thread about Hoffman, where everyone
else is, in fact, talking about Hoffman.
> Bowers previously said he saw men by the fence.
He said he saw *two* men near the fence.
Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---
high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down
under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass,
there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly
heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man,
about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.
Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?
Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each
other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.
The important phrase the last: "and gave no appearance of being together."
How could he describe them that way if they both ran to the same railroad
car and hid there?
> Then, Bowers said he saw 3 men run for the freight train.
>
> Are you suggesting the men running for the freight train came from a UFO?
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
No, they came from somewhere besides the picket fence area. And
where does the third man come from?
Bowers never said that the men he saw behind the fence ran anywhere. Not
to the Dallas authorities, not to the FBI, not to the Warren Commission,
not to Mark Lane. You'd think he would have brought it up at least to
Lane, if no one else, had it happened that way.
tomnln
Bowers was looking to his South (fence atop the knoll)
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b15e0c9$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Anthony Marsh
> "Anthony Marsh"<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:4b15a991$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> On 12/1/2009 12:24 AM, Mitch Todd wrote:
>>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>>>>
>>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>>
>>> What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
>>> running from --or in which direction they were running, for that matter.
>>> I
>>> also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
>>> mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
>>> separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
>>>
>>
>> Show me where Bowers mentions seeing two men AFTER the shooting.
>
> Where did I say that, Tony?
>
>
>> What you may not realize is that different witnesses with different points
>> of view may see the same suspects at different times in different places.
>
> The only problem is that Hoffman and Bowers claim to be looking at the
> same place at the same time.
>
No. They were not coordinating their efforts and their points of view
were different.
tomnln
Mitch is suggesting a "Miracle Birth".
Born from Nowhere & Running within seconds of Birth.
Mitch just Beat the SBT. (narrowly)
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b15ee32$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b15e0c9$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Anthony Marsh
> On 2 Dec 2009 00:33:54 -0500, Anthony Marsh
> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The article doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problems with
>>> Hoffman's account. The most important is that other witnesses absolutely
>>> should corroborate Hoffman's story, but do not. It would be very odd for
>>
>> Name the other witnesses who exactly the same point of view as Hoffman
>> allegedly had.
>>
>>> Lee Bowers not to notice two men running along the backside of the
>>> stockade fence, given the rest of his testimony. More to the point, how do
>>
>> Bowerd did not spend all his time trying to look for the two men.
>>
>>> SM Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into either of the men
>>> Hoffman claims to have observed? Holland, et al, watched to motocade from
>>
>> How do Sam Holland and his fellow railroad workers not run into the only
>> two men in that area at that time, the fake Secret Service agent and DPD
>> officer Joe Smith? Obiously they weren't there at the same time.
>>
>
> I'm aware that Smith said that only three people (himself, a deputy,
> probably Weitzman, and the "Secret Service agent") were there when he
> first got there.
>
> But then, I'm not aware that Holland or any of his buddies (Dodd and
> Simmons and one person I don't know) ever said that nobody was there
> when they got around behind the Stockade Fence.
>
Maybe you'd have to read Six Seconds in Dallas or watch Rush to
Judgment. Are you brave enough to do that?
> If anybody knows about such testimony, I'd like to see it.
>
Fine, but there is more to this case than just testimony.
>
>>> the north side of the triple underpass, and quickly made their way into
>>> the parking lot behind the stockade fence. This would have put them on a
>>> collision course with Hoffman's assassins. But no such encounter occurred.
>>>
>>
>> Nonsense. False premises and distorting the testimony.
>>
>
> Both the Holland account and the Smith account are trouble for
> Hoffman. Whatever the timing, it's essentially impossible to believe
> that "Suit Man" could have walked back along the fence and tossed the
> rifle off to "Railroad Man" without being seen.
>
Why? No one saw the man behind the fence until Smith got there.
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Those are the two sources I'm working from, Tony.
>> If anybody knows about such testimony, I'd like to see it.
>>
>
>Fine, but there is more to this case than just testimony.
>
At the moment, I'm interested in testimony.
If Holland said that nobody was behind the fence when he and his
buddies got there, that contradicts Smith.
I just want to know whether he (or any of his buddies) said that.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
yeuhd
> There WERE people behind the fence, there were cigarette butts there, and
> someone ID'd himself as a secret service agent to a Dallas cop.
Lee Bowers said in his filmed interview with Mark Lane that "no one"
was behind the fence at the time the shots were fired.
> Who was
> he? No-one knows. Bowers spoke of a "commotion" in the area at the time of
> the shooting.
Per Bowers' filmed interviewed with Mark Lane, the "immediate area" he was
referring to was between the pergola and the stockade fence. After the
last shot, per the testimony of Emmett Hudson, and confirmed by photos and
movies, Hudson and the young man who was standing near him ran up the
steps and dropped to the ground. Per Marilyn Sitzman, the young black
couple who had been eating lunch on the bench in that same area rushed
away so quickly after the shots were fired that a soda bottle smashed to
the ground.
yeuhd
> Bowers "DID" see 3 men Run from the fence to a freight train.
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
Please quote ANYWHERE in your link where ANYONE says the tramps ran
"from the fence". Or that the tramps were seen at ANY time between the
railroad tower and the fence.
yeuhd
> I mentioned NOTHING of Ed Hoffman.
>
> Bowers previously said he saw men by the fence.
Two men — in the area between the pergola and the fence.
> Then, Bowers said he saw 3 men run for the freight train.
Bowers had views in all four directions. The accounts of his spotting the
three tramps do not specify how long after the assassination this
occurred, but the photographs of the three men being led under arrest
across Dealey Plaza show only about a dozen people in front of the TSBD,
and everyone casting long shadows:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.jpg
Contrast the length of those shadows to those cast by people in photos and
movies during and immediately after the assassination. Someone using
photogrammetry could probably give the time of day within a half hour, but
it's clearly late afternoon when the sun was low. Do you really think it
took hours to arrest the three men in the rail yard?
yeuhd
> Everything Bowers described was South of his position in the Tower ! ! !
Quote Bowers saying that he saw the three tramps at anytime south of
his tower. Quote Bowers saying that he was looking south when he saw
the tramps.
Anthony Marsh
Post Hoc fallacy. The bottle smashing does not have to be caused by the
black couple. It could have been caused by Black Dog Man, who was not
the black couple.
ShutterBun
> On 11/27/2009 10:38 AM, ShutterBun wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 6:04 pm, John McAdams<john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> >> On 26 Nov 2009 20:56:57 -0500, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> I've read that the supposed eyewitness story by a hearing-impaired
> >>>>>> witness featured in TMWKK is highly suspect. I'd appreciate feedback
> >>>>>> on this witness.
> >>>>>> Thank you.
>
> >>>>> A big problem with Hoffman as a witness is the use of interpreters who
> >>>>> were not highly trained, or not using the correct words. When you use
> >>>>> interpreters, mistkaes can easily happen. This applies to Marina Oswald
> >>>>> aslo. I think his Hoffman's evidence is authentic. This might help you in
> >>>>> your study:
>
> >>>>>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
>
> >>>> rifle, why didn't Bowers, or anyone else for that matter, see them?
>
> >>>> There was nothing to "interpret" in his testimony. It was clear what he
> >>>> said he saw that day, what? some 10-20 years later?, and with ever-
> >>>> changing versions?
>
> >>>> What he said was bunk
>
> >>> There WERE people behind the fence, there were cigarette butts there, and
> >>> he? No-one knows.
>
> >>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ssknoll.txt
>
> >>> Bowers spoke of a "commotion" in the area at the time of
> >>> the shooting.
>
> >> Man.
>
> >>> Hoffman DID spoke of what he saw and the time of the
> >>> shooting, went to the Dallas Police, who funnily enough, weren't
> >>> interested in his testimony,
>
> >> And we know that how?
>
> >> Oh! I see. Hoffman says so.
>
> >>> and he was warned by his family (one of his
> >>> relatives was a policeman not to say anything) His story has not changed -
> >>> have you even read the link I posted??
>
> >> The testimony of Sam Holland really does in Hoffman.
>
> >> When Hoffman and his buddies ran around behind the Stockade Fence,
> >> they certainly would have seen Suit Man retreating along the fence and
> >> handing the rifle off to the Railroad Man.
>
> >> But then, Suit Man could not have retreated along the fence.
>
> >> Just watch Holland's testimony.
>
> >>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/video/holland.ram
>
> >> Now . . . Jean Davison has corrected you on the "no brain matter went
> >> forward" stuff.
>
> >> Don't you think it's time you got a little bit skeptical about what
> >> you read in conspiracy books?
> >> .John
> >> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > The game-breaker for Hoffman is that he first said he saw "whatever"
> > from his location on Stemmons, reported it to the FBI, what, 3 or 4
> > years later? Then 2 hours after reporting it to the FBI, revisited
>
> Please don't do that. You are not allowed to admit that a witness
> reported something conspiratorial to the FBI. You are supposed to claim
> that he only came out with it 40 years later for a TV, just for attention.
>
> > the site and determined he couldn't possibly have seen it, due to the
> > angles/structures involved. In other words: The man "imagined"
>
> More nonsense. Like Posner with his billboard in the way. Pure fiction.
> His supposed location would have a clear view.
>
> > seeing an event 3 years prior, then IMMEDIATELY recanted. 30 years
>
> Show me, quote where and when he recanted.
It's in the same FBI report:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hoffman1.htm
"Approximately two hours after the above interview with Hoffman, he
retuned to the Dallas Office of the FBI and advised he had just returned
from the spot on Stemmons Freeway where he had parked his automobile and
had decided he could not have seen the men running because of a fence west
of the Texas School Book Depository building. He said it was possible that
he saw these two men on the fence or something else."
In other words (if I interpret this correctly), if he actually saw these
two men where he thought he saw them, they had to have been walking along
the top fence like a balance beam. Hardly plausible.
ShutterBun
> On 12/1/2009 12:24 AM, Mitch Todd wrote:
>
> > "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Do you see a "Cab Stand" South of Bower's Railroad Tower???
>
> >> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> > What I see is that Wise's report did not mention where the 3 tramps were
> > running from --or in which direction they were running, for that matter. I
> > also see that you haven't addressed the simple fact that Hoffman only
> > mentioned seeing two men, and that they split up at the swichbox and went
> > separate ways, very unlike what Bowers reported.
>
> Show me where Bowers mentions seeing two men AFTER the shooting. What you
> may not realize is that different witnesses with different points of view
> may see the same suspects at different times in different places. One
> witness may see a suspect inside the back robbing it while another witness
> may only see the same suspect getting into a car after leaving the bank.
> So you point to the witness inside the bank who only saw the suspect
> robbing the bank as proof that he didn't get into a car to flee the scene.
>
>
>
> > You just can't win this hand with the cards you're trying ot play.
>
> >>news:4b147b30$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:4b143e3a$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >>>> Bowers "DID" see 3 men Run from the fence to a freight train.
>
> >>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> >>> In the excerpt you've provided, Bowers says nothing about where the three
> >>> men came from, only that he saw "three men running down the tracks
> >>> several hunderd yards from the control tower." Hoffman claims that he saw
> >>> two men running along the fence to the switchbox (which is near the north
> >>> end of the railroad overpass), where they split up in different
> >>> dirctions.
>
> >>>>news:4b141581$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> >>>>>> "Thalia"<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bowers and Hoffman (if he is to be believed) were essentially looking at
the same piece of real estate, though.
If what Hoffman says happened really happened, it's inconceivable that
Bowers would have missed it. The guy was recalling license plates and
bumper stickers, no less! OK, he gets a bit hazy when it comes to the
afterman (Mark Lane's "assistance" notwithstanding) but sheesh, he had to
have seen a guy tossing a rifle to an accomplice.
Hoffman's own family doubted him, and it's highly likely that, while he
saw *something* it was probably just the generally confused aftermath, but
that he personally wanted to be a part of the effort. He wanted to help,
as so many did, but when his information was found to be "not usefull" he
embellished it.
tomnln
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7805f80f-81db-4378...@e22g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
Bowers was looking South;
Are you suggesting that the tramps were running up from Mexico???
Do you need a photo of Dealy Plaza with the fence/parking lot & Bowers'
tower?
tomnln
On Dec 1, 3:01 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> I mentioned NOTHING of Ed Hoffman.
>
> Bowers previously said he saw men by the fence.
Two men � in the area between the pergola and the fence.
> Then, Bowers said he saw 3 men run for the freight train.
Bowers had views in all four directions. The accounts of his spotting the
three tramps do not specify how long after the assassination this
occurred, but the photographs of the three men being led under arrest
across Dealey Plaza show only about a dozen people in front of the TSBD,
and everyone casting long shadows:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.jpg
Contrast the length of those shadows to those cast by people in photos and
movies during and immediately after the assassination. Someone using
photogrammetry could probably give the time of day within a half hour, but
it's clearly late afternoon when the sun was low. Do you really think it
took hours to arrest the three men in the rail yard?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have photos of Long shadows at 12:30 p.m. in Dealy Plaza Sir.
It takes time to stop a train in motion.
It was stopped about a mile North of the tower.
It takes time to Search a freight train Sir.
It takes time to walk back to the point of origin with 3 tramps in tow.
Haven't you ever been to Dealy Plaza?
ps;
On every November 22, at 12:30 p.m. the sun is at 11:00 High in dealy Plaza,
almost in the eye
of anyone in the S E Corner 6th floor window ! ! !
Haven't you ever been to Dealy Plaza?
ps;
McAdams is NOT an official Source.
Mitch Todd
They didn't need to coordinate anything. They were just looking at the same
place at the same time. POV doesn't really matter --it's not exactly
difficult
to see two men with a rifle run across a parking lot.
Anthony Marsh
No. He may have been looking at something else at the time.
Just like when people claim that Sitzman MUST have seen the shooter,
forgetting that at that moment she was looking at the limo, not looking
for a shooter.
> Hoffman's own family doubted him, and it's highly likely that, while he
> saw *something* it was probably just the generally confused aftermath, but
> that he personally wanted to be a part of the effort. He wanted to help,
> as so many did, but when his information was found to be "not usefull" he
> embellished it.
>
Wow, this is really dangerous. You are almost admitting that he was
really there. I doubt some of his story, but I don't assume that he is a
liar or con man.
Mitch Todd
>I gave you the testimony>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
Where does Bowers say he saw saw anyone running away from the
fence?
> Bowers was looking to his South (fence atop the knoll)
You keep saying that, but haven't even tried to prove it.
Mitch Todd
> OMG !
>
> Mitch is suggesting a "Miracle Birth".
>
> Born from Nowhere & Running within seconds of Birth.
I'm not the one arguing that the two men seen behind the stockade
fence by Bower inexplicably generated a third person on the way
to the coal car. You have yet to address that simple fact. Or maybe
you're just not good at counting to three.
tomnln
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must be a speed reader.
Speed reading is acceptable ONLY when you get something out of it ! ! !
Try again>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeuhd
> Bowers was looking South;
Please quote where Bowers said he was looking South when he saw the
three men. He saw the three men AFTER the motorcade went by.
yeuhd
> > Please quote ANYWHERE in your link where ANYONE says the tramps ran
> > "from the fence". Or that the tramps were seen at ANY time between the
> > railroad tower and the fence.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Speed reading is acceptable ONLY when you get something out of it ! ! !
>
> Try again>>> SEE>>>http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
Nope. Once again: Nothing in your link — nothing — says that Bowers
saw the three men anywhere near the stockade fence on the knoll. Or, for
that matter, anywhere between his tower and Elm Street. But if you think
it does, quote it HERE.
Anthony Marsh
Yes, it is, when you are either looking the wrong way or there is a fence
and trees blocking your view.
I don't know how to explain this if you have never had any real life
experience, but it is possible for one person to see something that
another person can not see. Even if they are standing right next to each
other. The driver of a car may be able to see something just to one side
of a sign while the passenger can not because the sign blocks his view. It
has something to do with perspective.
tomnln
Name ONE sight Bowers said he saw to his North ! ! ! !
EVERYTHING he described was to the South/Southwest.
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b174f2f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
Hey Mitch;
Do you think the 3 tramps came from the 63 Caddy in the parking lot???
Do you think the 3 tramps came all the way up the railroad tracks from
Mexico???
Do you think the 3 tramps came from the Winn Dixie behind the fence???
Do you need a photo of the Area???
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b174f2f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
Unless of course your position is NOT Defensible ! ! !
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b17509c$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
Do you think the fence was to his North???
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ad6d80f1-e76f-483b...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:29f5d8a1-fc5a-40b9...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
yeuhd
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
>
> news:29f5d8a1-fc5a-40b9...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 3, 1:46 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > Please quote ANYWHERE in your link where ANYONE says the tramps ran
> > > "from the fence". Or that the tramps were seen at ANY time between the
> > > railroad tower and the fence.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > You must be a speed reader.
>
> > Speed reading is acceptable ONLY when you get something out of it ! ! !
>
> > Try again>>> SEE>>>http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> Nope. Once again: Nothing in your link — nothing — says that Bowers
> saw the three men anywhere near the stockade fence on the knoll. Or, for
> that matter, anywhere between his tower and Elm Street. But if you think
> it does, quote it HERE.
No matter how many times you keep linking to your website, NOTHING in
your link says that:
1. Bowers saw the three tramps anywhere near the stockade fence.
2. Bowers saw the three tramps while he was looking south.
3. Bowers saw the three tramps anywhere between his tower and Elm
Street.
4. Bowers saw the three tramps as the motorcade went by.
5. The three tramps had anything to do with the assassination of JFK.
Mitch Todd
> We can discuss this issue along with any Other issues a lot Quicker
> HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
>
> Unless of course your position is NOT Defensible ! ! !
I just asked a simple question. If Bowers claimed that he saw
two men behind the fence, then where did the third man come
from? If your position were defensible (as you put it), then you
would have no problem answering my question. However your
only inclination is to avoid answering anything.
Mitch Todd
> You're a Lost Cause Mitch;
>
> Name ONE sight Bowers said he saw to his North ! ! ! !
>
> EVERYTHING he described was to the South/Southwest.
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
Oh, but I insist that you answer the one important question.
Where does Bowers ever say that he saw three men run
from behind the fence to the trains?
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
Are you Dodging this one?>>> HERE>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b19f9cf$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> You're a Lost Cause Mitch;
>>
>> Name ONE sight Bowers said he saw to his North ! ! ! !
>>
>> EVERYTHING he described was to the South/Southwest.
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>
> Oh, but I insist that you answer the one important question.
> Where does Bowers ever say that he saw three men run
> from behind the fence to the trains?
From that direction;
You're Limited to the fence or the Railroad tracks.
Take your pick.
As for "insistance";
When are you gonna show up to defend your position?
Mitch Todd
> Bowers stated BOTH.
I asked a very simple question: "if Bowers claimed that he saw
two men behind the fence, then where did the third man come
from?"
You answer, repeated from above, is "Bowers stated BOTH"
You've made my point very nicely. I need say no more.
Mitch Todd
>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> You're a Lost Cause Mitch;
>>> Name ONE sight Bowers said he saw to his North ! ! ! !
>>>
>>> EVERYTHING he described was to the South/Southwest.
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>>
>> Oh, but I insist that you answer the one important question.
>> Where does Bowers ever say that he saw three men run
>> from behind the fence to the trains?
> From that direction;
>
> You're Limited to the fence or the Railroad tracks.
>
> Take your pick.
Actually, in the ARRB report on their interview with Wise, Bowers said he
"saw three men running down the tracks several hundred yards from the
control tower." The fence is a tad less than one hundred yards from
Bower's position. No matter what direction you want to have Bowers
pointing, the three men are far away from the fence, period.
Anthony Marsh
> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote
>> "Mitch Todd"<recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4b19...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> You're a Lost Cause Mitch;
>>>> Name ONE sight Bowers said he saw to his North ! ! ! !
>>>>
>>>> EVERYTHING he described was to the South/Southwest.
>>>>
>>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>>>
>>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>>>
>>> Oh, but I insist that you answer the one important question.
>>> Where does Bowers ever say that he saw three men run
>>> from behind the fence to the trains?
>> From that direction;
>>
>> You're Limited to the fence or the Railroad tracks.
>>
>> Take your pick.
>
> Actually, in the ARRB report on their interview with Wise, Bowers said he
> "saw three men running down the tracks several hundred yards from the
> control tower." The fence is a tad less than one hundred yards from
> Bower's position. No matter what direction you want to have Bowers
> pointing, the three men are far away from the fence, period.
>
>
In order to be on any railroad tracks they had to be far away from the
fence. At least 30 feet.
tomnln
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
If you have a Problem with it you can defend your position HERE>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b1bee81$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Anthony Marsh
> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Bowers stated BOTH.
>
> I asked a very simple question: "if Bowers claimed that he saw
> two men behind the fence, then where did the third man come
> from?"
>
> You answer, repeated from above, is "Bowers stated BOTH"
> You've made my point very nicely. I need say no more.
>
I think it's more likely what Bowers was talking about two different
sets of men. Two men before the shooting, and three different men after
the shooting.
>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>>
>> Are you Dodging this one?>>> HERE>>>
>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
>> "Mitch Todd"<recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4b19f9cf$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>> We can discuss this issue along with any Other issues a lot Quicker
>>>> HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
>>>>
>>>> Unless of course your position is NOT Defensible ! ! !
>>>
>>> I just asked a simple question. If Bowers claimed that he saw
>>> two men behind the fence, then where did the third man come
>>> from? If your position were defensible (as you put it), then you
>>> would have no problem answering my question. However your
>>> only inclination is to avoid answering anything.
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Mitch Todd"<recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b17509c$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>>>>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote"
>>>>>> OMG !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mitch is suggesting a "Miracle Birth".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Born from Nowhere& Running within seconds of Birth.
Mitch Todd
>I already gave you the Citations>>>
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
observation tower).
And your citations still don't resolve your third man
problem.
Mitch Todd
> On 12/6/2009 6:24 PM, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Bowers stated BOTH.
>>
>> I asked a very simple question: "if Bowers claimed that he saw
>> two men behind the fence, then where did the third man come
>> from?"
>>
>> You answer, repeated from above, is "Bowers stated BOTH"
>> You've made my point very nicely. I need say no more.
>>
>
> I think it's more likely what Bowers was talking about two different sets
> of men. Two men before the shooting, and three different men after the
> shooting.
That's the point I've been trying to make, Tony. Will wonders never cease?
Rossley seems to believe that since Bowers: a) mentioned seeing two men
behind the fence, b) told DPD officers that he saw three men running doen
the rialroad tracks, and c.) Bowers' recorded testimony generally
concentrates on the area south of his perch in the observation tower, then
the two men he saw behind the fence must have been the men who ran along
the tracks. How the two become three is a mystery that Rossley can't seem
to fathom.
Anthony Marsh
> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> I already gave you the Citations>>>
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>
> The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
> position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
> tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
> would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
> already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
> observation tower).
>
Yeah, and we know that witnesses are so accurate, right? So when he
GUESSES at SEVERAL hundred yards he actually meant 301 feet.
And BTW the fence is not on the tracks.
> And your citations still don't resolve your third man
> problem.
>
There is no third man. There is a group of two men and then another
group of three men.
>>>>>>>> Born from Nowhere& Running within seconds of Birth.
tomnln
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>I already gave you the Citations>>>
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>
> The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
> position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
> tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
> would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
> already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
> observation tower).
>
> And your citations still don't resolve your third man
> problem.
Bowers didn't mention the guy behind the fence who "Impersonated" a S S
Agent within minutes EITHER.
Are you gonna Deny he was there also?
YOU never addressed the FPPC being housed at 3126 WITH several
"Anti-Castro" organizations EITHER.
Does that indicate that you wished it would go away???
You've had AMPLE opportunity to defend your position.
HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
You "Wisely" chose NOT TO ! ! !
Like McAdams learned>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/radio_debate.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Todd
> On 12/7/2009 3:54 PM, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> I already gave you the Citations>>>
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>>
>> The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
>> position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
>> tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
>> would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
>> already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
>> observation tower).
>>
>
> Yeah, and we know that witnesses are so accurate, right? So when he
> GUESSES at SEVERAL hundred yards he actually meant 301 feet.
> And BTW the fence is not on the tracks.
I never said the fence was on the tracks, or near the tracks, or anything
near what you've decided to believe what I've said. As for Bowers'
measuring prowess, it would be one thing if he estimated something like "a
couple of hudred yards," "several hundred yards" is something else
entirely.
>> And your citations still don't resolve your third man
>> problem.
>>
>
> There is no third man. There is a group of two men and then another group
> of three men.
Tony, you never miss a chance to miss the point, do you?
For Rossley's assertion that the three tramps ran from the area behind the
fence, they pretty much have to have bolted before anyone else is up
there, which pretty much means they have to be there before the shooting.
Otherwise, they would have been seen by any one of the people who flowed
into the parking lot after the shooting stopped.
Anthony Marsh
False assumption. We don't know how long after the shooting he saw the
three men or that they were the tramps. They could have been farther up
the rails and then run down towards the source of the shots to see what
happened.
yeuhd
> "Mitch Todd" <recipien...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4b1d...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>I already gave you the Citations>>>
>
> >> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>
> >> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>
> > The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
> > position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
> > tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
> > would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
> > already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
> > observation tower).
>
> > And your citations still don't resolve your third man
> > problem.
>
> Bowers didn't mention the guy behind the fence who "Impersonated" a S S
> Agent within minutes EITHER.
>
> Are you gonna Deny he was there also?
Lee Bowers was not *asked* to list everyone who came to the area behind
the stockade fence after the assassination. However, Bowers did state
unequivocally that when the shots were fired, "no one" was behind the
fence. Bowers also stated that before the shots were fired, the only
people between his tower and Elm Street were one or two uniformed parking
lot attendants, and the two men standing in the opening between the
pergola and the fence, who did not appear to know each other.
tomnln
Some poor LN’r could have used your help last night.
The poor slob came into my live audio chat room espousing the dictates of the Warren Report.
When I asked him to back up his claims with evidence/testimony, he was LOST ! ! !
When I showed him he was WRONG with evidence/testimony,
I Buried him.
He sure could have used your help ! ! !
The night before that a Warren Report Supporter came into the room & I CONVERTED him into a CT’r ! ! !
Unless it was some poor Patsy you guys sent to his verbal suicide ! ! !
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
Mitch Todd
> "Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4b1d...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>I already gave you the Citations>>>
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
>>>
>>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/lee_j_bowers.htm
>>
>> The problem being, your citations directly contradict your
>> position. Bowers said he saw the men running down the
>> tracks "several hundred yards" from his location, which
>> would preclude the area behind the fence (which I've
>> already pointed out is a bit less than 100 yeards from the
>> observation tower).
>>
>> And your citations still don't resolve your third man
>> problem.
>
> Bowers didn't mention the guy behind the fence who "Impersonated" a S S Agent
> within minutes EITHER.
>
> Are you gonna Deny he was there also?
Attempting to change the subject doesn't change your problems here. Having
the three tramps "several hundred yards" away from Bowers puts them
anywhere _but_ the area behind the fence. Somewhere a mysterious third man
appears from parts unknown.
> YOU never addressed the FPPC being housed at 3126 WITH several "Anti-Castro"
> organizations EITHER.
>
> Does that indicate that you wished it would go away???
>
> You've had AMPLE opportunity to defend your position.
What position did I ever have on the "FPPC" on 3126?
Mitch Todd
Bowers told Wise, et al, that the three men he saw running along the tracks
hid in a coal car, and had an engine take them to the car's location. Wise
climbed into the coal car and arrested the three tramps. You don't need
calculus to add two and two.
tomnln
Do you need a map?
Are you AFRAID to show a position on 3126 Harlendale???
"What position did I ever have on the "FPPC" on 3126?
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/3126%20%20HARLENDALE.htm
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b1dd5cb$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
yeuhd
> The west end of the fence is about 25 feet from the tracks.
>
> Do you need a map?
No, but apparently you do. Lee Bowers told Marvin Wise that he saw the
three men running down the tracks "several hundred yards from the control
tower". Repeat: "several hundred yards". Third time: "several hundred
yards".
Get out a map and measure how far the control tower is from the west end
of the stockade fence. It's about 100 yards. Not several hundred. No track
"several hundred yards" south of the control tower is visible to the
control tower. Bowers' southern view of the tracks ended at the Triple
Underpass. See photo B in CE 2118:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
Anthony Marsh
As usual you don't address the points I made.
tomnln
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:61d0d395-f188-45e6...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Interview - Lee H. Bowers, Jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm3neVe8Nlw
LEE BOWERS INTERVIEW Below Part 1of 2
http://www.veoh.com/videos/e97495KAZA2acj
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm3neVe8Nlw
LEE BOWERS & S M HOLLAND INTERVIEW Below Part 2of 2
MORE LEE J BOWERS/S M HOLLAND Below.
Anthony Marsh
> On Dec 8, 12:40 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> The west end of the fence is about 25 feet from the tracks.
>>
>> Do you need a map?
>
> No, but apparently you do. Lee Bowers told Marvin Wise that he saw the
> three men running down the tracks "several hundred yards from the control
> tower". Repeat: "several hundred yards". Third time: "several hundred
> yards".
>
> Get out a map and measure how far the control tower is from the west end
> of the stockade fence. It's about 100 yards. Not several hundred. No track
> "several hundred yards" south of the control tower is visible to the
Bowers didn't specify SOUTH when he said several hundred yards away from
his tower. His tower was specifically located and built to allow him to
see all the tracks several hundred yards away.
Mitch Todd
> The west end of the fence is about 25 feet from the tracks.
>
> Do you need a map?
Bowers spotted the tramps "several hundred yards" away, much further
than 25 feet from the fence. Perhaps you have a different map than
the rest of the universe? Could explain why you're hot to change the
subject now.
yeuhd
> Right on top>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/catch_of_the_day.htm
>
What's on top? Certainly nothing to do with my post. Lee Bowers told
Marvin Wise that he saw the three men running down the tracks "several
hundred yards from the control tower". Get out a map and measure how far
the control tower is from the west end of the stockade fence. It's about
100 yards. Not several hundred. No track "several hundred yards" south of
the control tower is visible from the control tower. Bowers' southern view
of the tracks ended at the Triple Underpass. See photo B in CE 2118:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
No matter how many times you keep linking to your website, NOTHING in
your link says that:
1. Bowers saw the three tramps anywhere near the stockade fence.
2. Bowers saw the three tramps while he was looking south.
3. Bowers saw the three tramps anywhere between his tower and Elm
Street.
4. Bowers saw the three tramps as the motorcade went by.
5. The three tramps had anything to do with the assassination of JFK.
yeuhd
> On 12/8/2009 4:00 PM, yeuhd wrote:
>
> > On Dec 8, 12:40 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> The west end of the fence is about 25 feet from the tracks.
>
> >> Do you need a map?
>
> > No, but apparently you do. Lee Bowers told Marvin Wise that he saw the
> > three men running down the tracks "several hundred yards from the control
> > tower". Repeat: "several hundred yards". Third time: "several hundred
> > yards".
>
> > Get out a map and measure how far the control tower is from the west end
> > of the stockade fence. It's about 100 yards. Not several hundred. No track
> > "several hundred yards" south of the control tower is visible to the
>
> Bowers didn't specify SOUTH when he said several hundred yards away from
> his tower.
That is my point.
> His tower was specifically located and built to allow him to
> see all the tracks several hundred yards away.
The southern view of the tracks from the control tower ends at the
Triple Underpass. See photo B in CE 2118, taken from the tower:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
Mitch Todd
Several men were talking avidly amongst themselves about who made
the best hamburger. Another man joined in with his opinions regarding
asparagus.
Tony, I'm afraid to say that you are the asparagus man.
tomnln
"Mitch Todd" <recip...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b1f...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c09f67c4-9074-4dfe...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> On Dec 8, 8:33 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Right on top>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/catch_of_the_day.htm
>>
>
> What's on top? Certainly nothing to do with my post. Lee Bowers told
> Marvin Wise that he saw the three men running down the tracks "several
> hundred yards from the control tower". Get out a map and measure how far
> the control tower is from the west end of the stockade fence. It's about
> 100 yards. Not several hundred. No track "several hundred yards" south of
Straw man argument. Bowers did not say south.
yeuhd
> The CE Exhibit 2118 ENDS at the fence, NOT Bowers' field of View ! ! !
Both photos in CE 2118 (the "E" stands for Exhibit) were taken from
inside Lee Bowers' control tower.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
yeuhd
> On 12/9/2009 12:28 AM, yeuhd wrote:
>
> > On Dec 8, 8:33 pm, "tomnln"<tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Right on top>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/catch_of_the_day.htm
>
> > What's on top? Certainly nothing to do with my post. Lee Bowers told
> > Marvin Wise that he saw the three men running down the tracks "several
> > hundred yards from the control tower". Get out a map and measure how far
> > the control tower is from the west end of the stockade fence. It's about
> > 100 yards. Not several hundred. No track "several hundred yards" south of
>
> Straw man argument. Bowers did not say south.
That is my point.
tomnln
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
Please notice that the WC was only concerned with Bowers' view to the
SOUTHeast/SOUTHwest ! ! !
Anthony Marsh
Are you competing to win the wackiest post of the year award? Not much
time left, but so far yours is the leader.
tomnln
That is my point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's look at YOUR WC Exhibit>>>
Both photos in CE 2118 (the "E" stands for Exhibit) were taken from
inside Lee Bowers' control tower.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
Please notice that the WC was only concerned with Bowers' view to the
SOUTHeast/SOUTHwest ! !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0049a.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Didja notice that the WC was ONLY interested in Bowers' Southern View ! !
!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Todd
OK, you're down to posting a link to a picture. Still doesn't resolve how
the tramps could be behind the fence if they were seen (repetitious, I
know, but it needs to be said) "several hundred yards away" from the tower
of Bowers.
Mitch Todd
It may be wacky, but entirely appropriate. Your additions to this thread
show that consistantly misunderstand who is saying what and why. Maybe on
the same wavelength, but 90 degrees out of phase the whole time.