Statement from Judyth Baker
Martin Shackelford
dismissal was because of violating a housing regulation (on Aug. 25th).
Here is my statement concerning these matters:
Statement by Judyth Vary Baker, April 26, 2008
The Indiana Biological Association was an organization of doctors and
scientists in Indianapolis organized for the purpose of attracting young
scientists to study the biological sciences in Indiana. This was my home
state, so I was included in their lobbying efforts. They met me at the
International Science and Engineering Fair in Indianapolis and helped put
together a scholarship package for me.
I next met with members of that association at Notre Dame University, at
the beginning of the second week of October, 1961, where I presented my
paper on melanogenesis, at their invitation. My aunt drove me there, as
she lived nearby. She drove me back to St. Francis the next day. My
family in that area -- cousins-- still remember my one-day visit there.
The association had contacted Mrs. Georgia Watkins of the Florida ACS, and
local newspapers, on October 5, 1961, a few ays earlier, as it was
considered good publicity for the American Cancer Society. Articles about
the paper to be presented to the association reached the papers on the
6th. The doctors then contacted st. Francis and recommended my attendance
at the Academy of Science conference at Terre Haute. St. Francis was given
funds to drive me up to Terre Haute: three nuns did so. This is the
conference where a researcher found a record of the paper --- the second
time, not the first time -- that it was presented, in mid-October.
Mrs. Georgia Watkins referred to the IBA meeting in a newspaper article
dated October 6, and to my presentation of a paper to that organization in
a letter to me a week later, whereas this second presentation was held at
in mid-October. At that time, Sister Claire was a co-presenter because I
had established my lab at St. Francis only six weeks earlier, and she had
vetted my new work. The title of the paper I presented at the Academy
bespeaks of the advanced level of my work, which even after forty-five
years would be impossible for a layman to understand. I presented every
word of it personally.
I previously didn't mention the Terre Haute experience because I couldn't
remember enough details, and had no documents to prove it. This was
because that same day, after hours of discussion with the three nuns while
on the long car trip to and from Terre Haute, I agreed to become a nun,
and this decision overwhelmed memories of the conference experience there.
Two weeks later, my parents, upset over my decision, removed me at
midnight on October 31st, in their haste taking a room-mate's clothes, and
leaving behind all my money, documents, papers, and the precious melanoma
cancer cells, and SV40 virus cultures I'd been working on. My parents
refused mail contact with St. Francis, and I was unable to get the paper
published: in the journal, for publication wasn't guaranteed until it was
submitted for reviews, but that was now impossible.
In 1999, I tried to locate the paper without success, and thank Barb J.
for finding a record of its presentation, actually the second time it was
presented. I also learned in 1999 that the Indiana Biological Association
was no longer in existence, or had changed its name. Created to attract
biology students to Indiana, most likely it would be called a lobby today.
One of its members was a scientist from Eli Lilly's at Fort Wayne,
Indiana. I had already given his name to researchers previously, as
supporting my research while at St. rancis College.
As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the Roswell summer
program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I was kept
on, without a word. I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers. I had
moved from the "Y" the final week of the program because I was isolated,
even though Dr. Mirand said there were 9 girls at the "Y" -- I saw none of
them. Besides, I worked in Dr. Moore's private lab, separate from those
who worked on lower floors in the building, or in bigger labs. I also
needed some sleep, which I wasn't getting at the "Y.". Across from my
room, a woman had nightly epileptic seizures due to her brain cancer, and
I spent about an hour every night with a stick between her jaws. The
woman next to her was a black opera singer dying of throat cancer, whose
groans kept me awake. A friend told me about a room near campus where I
felt I could get a decent night's sleep.
I moved there for the final week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, but before I spent
a single night there, Dr. Mirand arrived, white-faced and upset. I didn't
have funds for the week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, as the landlord kept the
money, so Dr. Mirand accessed a special fund to pay the bill for the final
week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st. I kept the receipt as a souvenir of his
generosity, and because of the private fund's number written on the
receipt, which I tought interesing. Dr. Mirand was angry with me, yes, and
rumors spread that I was in the doghouse over the incident, but
nevertheless I presented my paper on August 31st - as did others in the
program-and he grudgingly praised the paper. It's possible Dr. Moore may
have intervened to keep me in the program. Or, being a very kind man, Dr.
Moore may have decided not to tell me that Dr. Mirand dismissed me from
the program so close to the finish. My work was too important to simply
drop, and I ended up receiving awards, including a $1,300 stipend from NSF
funds provided to the program.
Dr. Moore remained in contact with me until I went to New Orleans in 1963,
and authorized some standard lab equipment to be sent to St. Francis
College in September, including 200 plastic flasks for tissue culture
purposes. I hope that Dr. Mirand will look into the records, as I was
never told I was dismissed from the program, nor did I ever sign any
release papers at any time. I apologize for any inconveniences this has
caused Dr. Mirand, who has done so much for so many students in cancer
research. Judyth Vary Baker
2) Reily Co. told her that the green glasses were only offered as premiums
in 1959-60.
Question: how would I have known that green glasses were EVER offered as
premiums by Reily? Pure guesswork? Bob Vernon is on record as going a
few years ago to Wm. B. Reily and giving him a heads-up about me. It is
then easy to claim that green glasses weren't sent out as premiums in
mid-1963, only earlier. Just as the 'error' saying I was at Roswell in
1962, this seems another convenient 'error.' Once again, how would I have
known about green glasses as premiums, especially three or four years
earlier? Nobody ever brought out such a detail. Go ahead, take the
company's word for it, but common sense should tell you that actually
admitting such a premium existed at all goes far.
3) She found documents indicating that the Russian course couldn't have
been created for you, that it was in existence from an earlier time.
I think I was enrolled in Dr. T Concevitch's MJC class in Fall of 1960,
and later audited the class, when I could, in 1961. But in 1959,1960, and
1961, I was being sent around to help raise funds for the new technology
building at Manatee High School, and our science projects. Some newspaper
articles exist mentioning my work to raise such funds. Since this had
nothing to do with research, I haven't made those articles public. I was
missing a lot of school, though, and when I was at the Sarasota Air Force
base at a luncheon, in 1959, I was asked by the retired officers there to
learn Russian. They wanted me to read reports on science progress in the
USSR.
Col. Doyle brought up the suject t them because David Tracy and Dave
Deitrich, at Manatee County High School (then so named) were pushing,
along with me, for Russian classes at our high school. Dave Deitrich is
now a lawyer who can be contacted to verify that he helped lobby not only
for the science seminar to be created, but also for Russian to be taught.
The three of us got the science Seminar, but not the high school Russian
classes, as we simply didn't have enough electives time for both.
Deitrich and Tracy went on to enroll in Russian at the University of
Florida, which is on record. I think Dave Tracy minored in Russian.
Back in 1959, I said I'd be happy to study Russian if they would find
me a teacher who could teach the class at night. I believe they located
Dr. Concevitch, who was teaching classes in an extension program, possibly
with New College, and got him to start teaching at Manatee Jr. College.
See the attached statement showing I had personal correspondence with Dr.
Concevitch (envelope) and my mother's statement showing I attended in 1960
and 1961, not just 1960, and that my instruction was privately funded.
They are only looking at my official attendance record for Fall of 1960, I
believe, while Concevitch may have started teaching at the Jr. College
that spring or summer. But it was my talk at the air force base that
created the demand for a Russian class in 1959. I had such a hectic
chedule that I was unable to attend night classes in 1959 and had to wait
until 1960, but I still had many absences and had to end up auditing that
course, too.
At least they must now admit there was a paper presented, and that no
layman or hig school science student 45 years ago could have done that
kind of research-- that it is genine cancer research-- something they
claimed I did not accomplish. of course Sister Claire, knowing me only
six weeks, did none of that research herself, but was needed to sponsor
the paper and vett it. And 'dismissed' at Roswell, which I was never told,
if true was due to a housing violation, not lack of resarch ability, and
that decision was overturned, or at least changed so I could continue my
work under Dr. Moore alone, who was supportive the whole way. ==j==
John McAdams
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Is this "two times" business a new addition to her story?
>Mrs. Georgia Watkins referred to the IBA meeting in a newspaper article
>dated October 6, and to my presentation of a paper to that organization in
>a letter to me a week later, whereas this second presentation was held at
>in mid-October. At that time, Sister Claire was a co-presenter because I
>had established my lab at St. Francis only six weeks earlier, and she had
>vetted my new work.
Who was the first listed author?
>The title of the paper I presented at the Academy
>bespeaks of the advanced level of my work, which even after forty-five
>years would be impossible for a layman to understand. I presented every
>word of it personally.
>
>I previously didn't mention the Terre Haute experience because I couldn't
>remember enough details, and had no documents to prove it. This was
>because that same day, after hours of discussion with the three nuns while
>on the long car trip to and from Terre Haute, I agreed to become a nun,
>and this decision overwhelmed memories of the conference experience there.
OK, so Barb discovered a major flaw in her story, and we now have
*two* paper presentations, and an excuse as to why one has never been
seen before.
>Two weeks later, my parents, upset over my decision, removed me at
>midnight on October 31st, in their haste taking a room-mate's clothes, and
>leaving behind all my money, documents, papers, and the precious melanoma
>cancer cells, and SV40 virus cultures I'd been working on.
Seems she is still sticking with the SV-40 stuff. From my essay:
<quote on>
“Deadly Alliance” says that the virus in the “cocktail” on which the
little band of researchers was working was the AIDS virus, but she
told various Dutch media outlets that she was working with SV-40
(Simian Virus 40).
FOOTNOTES TO ABOVE:
See for example “Een Amerikaanse held” in De Groene Amsterdammer,
June 21, 2003. Judyth’s website that went online in November 2003 has
a somewhat different version of the SV-40 story, apparently the result
of her having noticed the problems with the original version.
This latter virus, which contaminated early batches of Polio Vaccine,
does not cause cancer in humans and isn’t the AIDS virus nor a related
one. Thus it wouldn’t in fact be of much use in a bioweapons program.
When she was interviewed for “The Men Who Killed Kennedy” in 2003, the
virus to knock out Castro’s immune system had been replaced by a plan
to expose Castro to repeated doses of radiation to help the cancer
along.
<Quote off>
>My parents
>refused mail contact with St. Francis, and I was unable to get the paper
>published: in the journal, for publication wasn't guaranteed until it was
>submitted for reviews, but that was now impossible.
>
>In 1999, I tried to locate the paper without success, and thank Barb J.
>for finding a record of its presentation, actually the second time it was
>presented. I also learned in 1999 that the Indiana Biological Association
>was no longer in existence, or had changed its name. Created to attract
>biology students to Indiana, most likely it would be called a lobby today.
>One of its members was a scientist from Eli Lilly's at Fort Wayne,
>Indiana. I had already given his name to researchers previously, as
>supporting my research while at St. rancis College.
>
>As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the Roswell summer
>program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I was kept
>on, without a word.
Seems we have a concession here.
>I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers. I had
>moved from the "Y" the final week of the program because I was isolated,
>even though Dr. Mirand said there were 9 girls at the "Y" -- I saw none of
>them. Besides, I worked in Dr. Moore's private lab, separate from those
>who worked on lower floors in the building, or in bigger labs. I also
>needed some sleep, which I wasn't getting at the "Y.". Across from my
>room, a woman had nightly epileptic seizures due to her brain cancer, and
>I spent about an hour every night with a stick between her jaws. The
>woman next to her was a black opera singer dying of throat cancer, whose
>groans kept me awake. A friend told me about a room near campus where I
>felt I could get a decent night's sleep.
>
>I moved there for the final week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, but before I spent
>a single night there, Dr. Mirand arrived, white-faced and upset. I didn't
>have funds for the week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, as the landlord kept the
>money, so Dr. Mirand accessed a special fund to pay the bill for the final
>week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st. I kept the receipt as a souvenir of his
>generosity, and because of the private fund's number written on the
>receipt, which I tought interesing.
OK, where is the receipt?
>Dr. Mirand was angry with me, yes, and
>rumors spread that I was in the doghouse over the incident, but
>nevertheless I presented my paper on August 31st - as did others in the
>program-and he grudgingly praised the paper. It's possible Dr. Moore may
>have intervened to keep me in the program. Or, being a very kind man, Dr.
>Moore may have decided not to tell me that Dr. Mirand dismissed me from
>the program so close to the finish. My work was too important to simply
>drop, and I ended up receiving awards, including a $1,300 stipend from NSF
>funds provided to the program.
>
It was an unfortunate time to post this, Martin.
You're going to need to go back to Judyth and get an explanation for
this gaff.
>Dr. Moore remained in contact with me until I went to New Orleans in 1963,
>and authorized some standard lab equipment to be sent to St. Francis
>College in September, including 200 plastic flasks for tissue culture
>purposes. I hope that Dr. Mirand will look into the records, as I was
>never told I was dismissed from the program, nor did I ever sign any
>release papers at any time. I apologize for any inconveniences this has
>caused Dr. Mirand, who has done so much for so many students in cancer
>research. Judyth Vary Baker
>
>2) Reily Co. told her that the green glasses were only offered as premiums
>in 1959-60.
>
>Question: how would I have known that green glasses were EVER offered as
>premiums by Reily? Pure guesswork?
Maybe some were laying around Reily, and fellow employees explained
they had been premiums.
But then the time-frame needed to be changed to make Oswald fit in.
>Bob Vernon is on record as going a
>few years ago to Wm. B. Reily and giving him a heads-up about me. It is
>then easy to claim that green glasses weren't sent out as premiums in
>mid-1963, only earlier.
Oh, my! We have a Vernon/Reily conspiracy to falsify Judyth's claim.
>Just as the 'error' saying I was at Roswell in
>1962, this seems another convenient 'error.' Once again, how would I have
>known about green glasses as premiums, especially three or four years
>earlier? Nobody ever brought out such a detail. Go ahead, take the
>company's word for it, but common sense should tell you that actually
>admitting such a premium existed at all goes far.
>
Maybe somebody found a left-over half-empty carton of the things in a
storeroom somewhere and gave them around to employees.
>3) She found documents indicating that the Russian course couldn't have
>been created for you, that it was in existence from an earlier time.
>
>I think I was enrolled in Dr. T Concevitch's MJC class in Fall of 1960,
>and later audited the class, when I could, in 1961.
OK, so there are now *two* instances of Judyth taking Russian.
One consistent with her book, and the other consistent with what Barb
found.
I don't think this even needs comment. It is as colvoluted as the
whole "Cancun" mess.
>At least they must now admit there was a paper presented, and that no
>layman or hig school science student 45 years ago could have done that
>kind of research-- that it is genine cancer research-- something they
>claimed I did not accomplish. of course Sister Claire, knowing me only
>six weeks, did none of that research herself, but was needed to sponsor
>the paper and vett it. And 'dismissed' at Roswell, which I was never told,
>if true was due to a housing violation, not lack of resarch ability, and
>that decision was overturned, or at least changed so I could continue my
>work under Dr. Moore alone, who was supportive the whole way. ==j==
>
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Michael O'Dell
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:J13Rj.23184$%41.1...@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
Did I miss something? Where was this statement from Dr. Mirand made? What
exactly did he say?
Michael
curtjester1
case, besides Judyth just merely knowing LHO?
CJ
On Apr 27, 6:24 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> that decision was overturned, or at ...
>
> read more »
Rudy Lasparri
=============================================
And yet 45+ years ago there still are records of the dismissal!
=============================================
=================================================
Exactly which AFB was that? In 1970 I was assigned to MacDill AFB which
was (and still is) located on the southernmost tip of the Tampa peninsula.
I was quite aware of all the AFBs in Florida -- I don't recall there being
one in Sarasota which is a bit south of Tampa.
=================================================
===============================================
Can MShack be placed on "double secret probation?"
===============================================
Martin Shackelford
Martin
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:jkaa14hkn0uamnosu...@4ax.com...
Martin Shackelford
2) The purpose of the Mexico City trip.
3) Oswald's connections to Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw and Ochsner.
4) The nature of the Reily job.
5) The nature of Oswald's connection to the JFK conspiracy.
Martin
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7bdcb66d-c1fd-42c7...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
jfk...@gmail.com
Interesting that a furor of controversy and probably envy surrounded
Judyth for that long as well.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steve Thomas
What "controversy" and what "envy?" Can you be specific?
curtjester1
wrote:
> 1) What Oswald was doing that summer in New Orleans.
> 2) The purpose of the Mexico City trip.
> 3) Oswald's connections to Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw and Ochsner.
> 4) The nature of the Reily job.
> 5) The nature of Oswald's connection to the JFK conspiracy.
>
> Martin
>
Thanks. All fairly important, and most is touched on to a good extent
in my reading of Harvey and Lee.
CJ
jfk...@gmail.com
I would if the mods would let me.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_frm/thread/b8890e75b1fb0b99#
When someone uses gossip that originated over 40 years ago in spite of
the fact that they know it to be wrong, that should give an indication
that there is a reason for that. The fact that gossip about Judyth at
RP exists all these years later is an indication that she was the
object of controversy even back then, don't you think?
Barb Junkkarinen
Gee, the last thing you dragged to acjfk wasn't enough for you ...
thought you'd try again?<g>
>
>When someone uses gossip that originated over 40 years ago in spite of
>the fact that they know it to be wrong, that should give an indication
>that there is a reason for that. The fact that gossip about Judyth at
>RP exists all these years later is an indication that she was the
>object of controversy even back then, don't you think?
>
As you well know, Pam, the information that Judyth had been dismissed
from the summer program at Roswell Park, CAME FROM ROSWELL PARK ...and
I had not even asked a question about JUDYTH ... I mentioned I was
doing some research that involved a student from that summer, but I
asked NO QUESTION ABOUT ***HER***. The reply I got said that IF I gave
him the name, he could find out her mentor was for me. I gave him the
name. Then the information came that she had been dismissed.
I chose to look for a student to see if I could get that corroborated
BEFORE I posted the information from RP. I did. The student recalled a
flap and then Judyth being gone.
The only one digging for dirt ... and slinging it, amidst
misrepresentation of how, why and what went down ... is ***YOU***.
That you are so hostile to someone doing any fact checking on Judyth's
claims ... fact checking that should have been done years ago, by any
research standards, says everything about you ... nothing about me.
And, as you also know now ... Dr. Mirand at RP confirmed that Judyth
had, indeed, been dismissed from the program.
Go figure you think you can ignore that. But then you seem to have
forgotten that YOU made it known that YOU had left messages for Dr.
Mirand and would be talking to him ... yet, we haven't heard ONE WORD
from you about what he told you when you talked to him. Instead, we
get Judyth herself admitting he told a couple researchers that she had
been dismissed from the program.
Why won't you tell us ***all*** you learned from your conversation
with Mirand? Hmmmm?
You might not want to start a sand kicking contest.
Anthony Marsh
You did not ask about any other students. You were looking only for dirt
on Judyth. Then you gave him her name.
> I chose to look for a student to see if I could get that corroborated
> BEFORE I posted the information from RP. I did. The student recalled a
> flap and then Judyth being gone.
>
> The only one digging for dirt ... and slinging it, amidst
> misrepresentation of how, why and what went down ... is ***YOU***.
>
> That you are so hostile to someone doing any fact checking on Judyth's
> claims ... fact checking that should have been done years ago, by any
> research standards, says everything about you ... nothing about me.
>
I said a long time ago that no one had done any fact checking on
Judyth's story.
howardp
>
> Seems she is still sticking with the SV-40 stuff. From my essay:
>
> <quote on>
>
> "Deadly Alliance" says that the virus in the “cocktail” on which the
> little band of researchers was working was the AIDS virus, but she
> told various Dutch media outlets that she was working with SV-40
> (Simian Virus 40).
>
"Deadly Alliance" is either an early draft I worked on or the title of an
outline I had made for research purposes alone. The one you and Reitzes
have later doubled in length, was much clarified, and then was
discontinued. As I just informed Reitzes, neither were intended for
publication. If there is anything out there that says she was working with
the AIDS virus, it is wrong. This was just my feeble mind trying to make
sense of all she was saying and writing in a relatively short amount of
time. I have more accurately been descibing SV-40 -- especially the
mutated form of it "serendipidously" created by Dr. Sherman -- as a virus
that breaks down the immune system LIKE AIDS. Haslam has his own thoughts
about which I am not expert enough to comment.
Freshen up your Web site, Herr Professor.
Please tell me you will stop stealing private e-mails, not to mention
publishing copyrighted documents.
H
John McAdams
>
>>
>> Seems she is still sticking with the SV-40 stuff. From my essay:
>>
>> <quote on>
>>
>> "Deadly Alliance" says that the virus in the “cocktail” on which the
>> little band of researchers was working was the AIDS virus, but she
>> told various Dutch media outlets that she was working with SV-40
>> (Simian Virus 40).
>>
>
>"Deadly Alliance" is either an early draft I worked on or the title of an
>outline I had made for research purposes alone. The one you and Reitzes
>have later doubled in length, was much clarified, and then was
>discontinued.
Why did it contain so many assertions that were simply untrue?
An "early outline" may be less than complete, but does it have to be a
pack of lies?
>As I just informed Reitzes, neither were intended for
>publication.
Incriminating documents never are -- for obvious reasons.
>If there is anything out there that says she was working with
>the AIDS virus, it is wrong. This was just my feeble mind trying to make
>sense of all she was saying and writing in a relatively short amount of
>time.
Willing to fall on your sword, eh?
>I have more accurately been descibing SV-40 -- especially the
>mutated form of it "serendipidously" created by Dr. Sherman -- as a virus
>that breaks down the immune system LIKE AIDS. Haslam has his own thoughts
>about which I am not expert enough to comment.
>
Neither is Haslam.
>Freshen up your Web site, Herr Professor.
>
Sure. Send me the longer version and I'll be happy to publish it too.
But I'm *not* willing to conceal earlier versions of the story that
are no longer "operative."
The development of the "Judyth story" shows all of Team Judyth
thrashing around, continually being outed as pushing nonsense and
continually trying to wiggle out.
Remember, *you* were the fellow who supposedly put "Cancun" in the
account, that was before the nefarious "first agent" did it, and
before Team Judyth started insisting that "Cancun" was true!
>Please tell me you will stop stealing private e-mails, not to mention
>publishing copyrighted documents.
>
Stealing?
I don't know how to "steal" e-mails.
I certainly know how to publish incriminating e-mails that people leak
to me.
Isn't reality a bummer?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Rudy Lasparri
>>>>>>> As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the
>>>>>>> Roswell summer
>>>>>>> program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I
>>>>>>> was kept
>>>>>>> on, without a word. I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers.
A housing violation? What IS a housing violation and why was it worthy
of a dismissal?? Is that Judyth-speak for turning tricks in the dorm??
Barb Junkkarinen
Better question might be is "housing violation" Judyth speak?
Pamela and Martin are strangely quiet on it, and though asked....don't
seem to want to go near it with a 10 foot pole.
Barb :-)
jfk...@gmail.com
You know that is not going to happen. Team McAdams will stop at nothing
to try to dig up dirt on Judyth. Seems they can't afford to play by the
rules -- maybe they think the stakes are too high.
jfk...@gmail.com
It wasn't. That is the point.
Barb Junkkarinen
What rules are those? The only one Team Judyth seems to have is that
anything that is detrimental to the Judyth Religion, regardless of
documentation, must be denounced at all costs ...regardless of how
uncredible and foolish it makes one look.
Barb Junkkarinen
Just where DID Judyth get this "housing violation" excuse, Pamela?
You mentioned, in a post the other day, that Judyth had a housing
issue with Dr. Mirand ...according to her book it was at the start of
the program.
Did you ASK Judyth if that might not be the reason she was dismissed
... you know, just being helpful like you were to Robert Frazier when
you helped him figure out how something must have happened?
Or did she come up with it on her own?
Hmm?
A statement from Judyth Baker ... new thread posted by Martin
Shackelford on April, 27. 2008:
On 27 Apr 2008 21:24:02 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
Martin Shackelford
only read for details you think you can attack.
Due to problems in the dorm which made it difficult to sleep, she moved,
and Dr. Mirand was upset about the move. Thus the "housing violation."
Teens tended to be more closely controlled in 1961 than they are today.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ganp14ptfpe983tjr...@4ax.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Judyth already went into detail about the housing matter. Apparently you
>only read for details you think you can attack.
>
>Due to problems in the dorm which made it difficult to sleep, she moved,
>and Dr. Mirand was upset about the move. Thus the "housing violation."
>Teens tended to be more closely controlled in 1961 than they are today.
>
>Martin
Judyth was never in a dorm.
Roswell Park did not provide or arrange housing for students.
And Judyth's "details" are just one more ... sigh ... example of you
taking her sayso and running with it as fact.
The best that can be said about her housing details is ....
"unverified claims" ... which you have posted you do not tolerate.
Who told Judyth Dr. Mirand said she was dismissed because of a
"housing violation," Martin???
Hmm?
Any particular reason after all the namecalling, accusations, etc
against me in the wake of RP e-mailing me that Judyth had been
dismissed from the program, and you then announcing I had been
"played" and was "toast" ...and that Dr. Mirand would be providing
more setails soon ... that you are now dead silent on the issue?
If Mirand had said Judyth was dismissed for a "housing violation"
...and that despite that she went on and finished the program, as
Judyth claims ... do you think there is anyone who believes you would
not have been melting the keyboard to post that info right away?
Who told Judyth Dr. Mirand said she was dismissed for a "housing
violation" ... or did Judyth come up with that on her own?
Anthony Marsh
They honestly think that all they need to do is discredit a source and
that alone proves that there was no conspiracy. Physical evidence means
nothing to them.
jfk...@gmail.com
> Judyth already went into detail about the housing matter. Apparently you
> only read for details you think you can attack.
>
> Due to problems in the dorm which made it difficult to sleep, she moved,
> and Dr. Mirand was upset about the move. Thus the "housing violation."
> Teens tended to be more closely controlled in 1961 than they are today.
She seems too wrapped up in finding some gossip about Judyth to bother
to acknowledge that she moved forward with incorrect information.
>
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ganp14ptfpe983tjr...@4ax.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
>On May 4, 5:36 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Judyth already went into detail about the housing matter. Apparently you
>> only read for details you think you can attack.
>>
>> Due to problems in the dorm which made it difficult to sleep, she moved,
>> and Dr. Mirand was upset about the move. Thus the "housing violation."
>> Teens tended to be more closely controlled in 1961 than they are today.
>
>She seems too wrapped up in finding some gossip about Judyth to bother
>to acknowledge that she moved forward with incorrect information.
I moved forward with information from two sources that said Judyth was
dismissed from the summer program at RP. One of those sources was RP.
Judyth, in her statement, acknowledged Dr. Mirand said she had been
dismissed from the program.
Hello?
Dave Reitzes
Heh heh. \:^)
While that is a highly speculative interpretation, I will point out that
Judyth, according to her own account, took up residence in a brothel in
New Orleans in 1963. She had no idea it was a brothel, she says, until it
was raided.
Hmm, now that I think about it, that seems unlikely, doesn't it? That all
these customers were arriving and departing (I choose these words very
carefully) at all hours (and half-hours, and very possibly quarter-hours),
and she had no idea what was going on?
Perhaps if Team Judyth could explain precisely why Judyth was dismissed
(and explain why Judyth is using third-party hearsay to explain this
incident from her own background) -- and produce some documentation, of
course -- it would quell speculation.
Dave
Steve Thomas
Good luck getting an answer on that Dave.
William Yates
Does it really count as third party hearsay if Pamela, Tony and Martin
aren't attacking her for it?
You don't really think they would have one set of standards for Barb and
another one for Judyth, do you?
Anthony Marsh
> On May 3, 4:24�pm, Rudy Lasparri <Rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the
>>>>>>>>> Roswell summer
>>>>>>>>> program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I
>>>>>>>>> was kept
>>>>>>>>> on, without a word. �I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers.
>> A housing violation? What IS a housing violation and why was it worthy
>> of a dismissal?? �Is that Judyth-speak for turning tricks in the dorm??
>
>
> Heh heh. \:^)
>
> While that is a highly speculative interpretation, I will point out that
> Judyth, according to her own account, took up residence in a brothel in
> New Orleans in 1963. She had no idea it was a brothel, she says, until it
> was raided.
>
> Hmm, now that I think about it, that seems unlikely, doesn't it? That all
> these customers were arriving and departing (I choose these words very
> carefully) at all hours (and half-hours, and very possibly quarter-hours),
> and she had no idea what was going on?
>
Well, it didn't take you long to turn this into a sex scandal.
William Yates
> Dave Reitzes wrote:
>> On May 3, 4:24�pm, Rudy Lasparri <Rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the
>>>>>>>>>> Roswell summer
>>>>>>>>>> program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I
>>>>>>>>>> was kept
>>>>>>>>>> on, without a word. �I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers.
>>> A housing violation? What IS a housing violation and why was it worthy
>>> of a dismissal?? �Is that Judyth-speak for turning tricks in the dorm??
>>
>>
>> Heh heh. \:^)
>>
>> While that is a highly speculative interpretation, I will point out
>> that Judyth, according to her own account, took up residence in a
>> brothel in New Orleans in 1963. She had no idea it was a brothel, she
>> says, until it was raided.
>>
>> Hmm, now that I think about it, that seems unlikely, doesn't it? That
>> all these customers were arriving and departing (I choose these words
>> very carefully) at all hours (and half-hours, and very possibly
>> quarter-hours), and she had no idea what was going on?
>>
>
> Well, it didn't take you long to turn this into a sex scandal.
And exactly how is Reitzes turning this into a sex scandal by pointing
out something Judyth put in her book?
Dave Reitzes
wrote:
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > Dave Reitzes wrote:
> >> On May 3, 4:24�pm, Rudy Lasparri <Rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the
> >>>>>>>>>> Roswell summer
> >>>>>>>>>> program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I
> >>>>>>>>>> was kept
> >>>>>>>>>> on, without a word. �I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers.
> >>> A housing violation? What IS a housing violation and why was it worthy
> >>> of a dismissal?? �Is that Judyth-speak for turning tricks in the dorm??
>
> >> Heh heh. \:^)
>
> >> While that is a highly speculative interpretation, I will point out
> >> that Judyth, according to her own account, took up residence in a
> >> brothel in New Orleans in 1963. She had no idea it was a brothel, she
> >> says, until it was raided.
>
> >> Hmm, now that I think about it, that seems unlikely, doesn't it? That
> >> all these customers were arriving and departing (I choose these words
> >> very carefully) at all hours (and half-hours, and very possibly
> >> quarter-hours), and she had no idea what was going on?
>
> > Well, it didn't take you long to turn this into a sex scandal.
>
> And exactly how is Reitzes turning this into a sex scandal by pointing
> out something Judyth put in her book?
Heh heh. God forbid anyone should conflate any facet of Judyth's alleged,
adulterous affair with Lee Harvey Oswald with a sex scandal. \:^)
What's next -- JFK's murder "turned into" a homicide?
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Dave Reitzes wrote:
>>> On May 3, 4:24�pm, Rudy Lasparri <Rudy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the
>>>>>>>>>>> Roswell summer
>>>>>>>>>>> program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I
>>>>>>>>>>> was kept
>>>>>>>>>>> on, without a word. �I never saw nor signed any dismissal
>>>>>>>>>>> papers.
>>>> A housing violation? What IS a housing violation and why was it worthy
>>>> of a dismissal?? �Is that Judyth-speak for turning tricks in the dorm??
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh heh. \:^)
>>>
>>> While that is a highly speculative interpretation, I will point out
>>> that Judyth, according to her own account, took up residence in a
>>> brothel in New Orleans in 1963. She had no idea it was a brothel, she
>>> says, until it was raided.
>>>
>>> Hmm, now that I think about it, that seems unlikely, doesn't it? That
>>> all these customers were arriving and departing (I choose these words
>>> very carefully) at all hours (and half-hours, and very possibly
>>> quarter-hours), and she had no idea what was going on?
>>>
>>
>> Well, it didn't take you long to turn this into a sex scandal.
>
> And exactly how is Reitzes turning this into a sex scandal by pointing
> out something Judyth put in her book?
>
By speculating, with innuendo, that Judyth really knew it was a brothel.
From what I have heard brothels were quite common in New Orleans.
William Yates
If you have "heard" that they were common, couldn't Judyth have easily
found out that she was living in one prior to the raid?
jfk...@gmail.com
wrote:
Dave Reitzes
> > Seems she is still sticking with the SV-40 stuff. From my essay:
>
> > <quote on>
>
> > "Deadly Alliance" says that the virus in the “cocktail” on which the
> > told various Dutch media outlets that she was working with SV-40
> > (Simian Virus 40).
>
> "Deadly Alliance" is either an early draft I worked on or the title of an
> outline I had made for research purposes alone. The one you and Reitzes
> have later doubled in length, was much clarified, and then was
> discontinued. As I just informed Reitzes, neither were intended for
> publication. If there is anything out there that says she was working with
> sense of all she was saying and writing in a relatively short amount of
> time.
Judyth told me, in an e-mail of October 7, 2000: "I spent ten hours
being interrogated by a expert in AIDS-HIV yesterday."
Care to tell us who this expert was and why he was questioning Judyth?
I have more accurately been descibing SV-40 -- especially the
> mutated form of it "serendipidously" created by Dr. Sherman -- as a virus
> that breaks down the immune system LIKEAIDS. Haslam has his own thoughts
> about which I am not expert enough to comment.
>
> Freshen up your Web site, Herr Professor.
>
> Please tell me you will stop stealing private e-mails, not to mention
> publishing copyrighted documents.
>
> H
Dave
Barb Junkkarinen
Let's get them all in one spot for comparison. The Queen of Spades
issue was not brought up uin one until today. The other rambles
conflict not only with one another in some respects, but with what she
wrote and published in her book as well!
Barb :-)
On 27 Apr 2008 21:24:02 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>from J: Other researchers have talked to Dr. Mirand, who said the
>dismissal was because of violating a housing regulation (on Aug. 25th).
>As to Dr. Mirand's statement that I was dismissed from the Roswell summer
>program due to a housing violation, Dr. Moore intervened, and I was kept
>on, without a word. I never saw nor signed any dismissal papers. I had
>moved from the "Y" the final week of the program because I was isolated,
>even though Dr. Mirand said there were 9 girls at the "Y" -- I saw none of
>them. Besides, I worked in Dr. Moore's private lab, separate from those
>who worked on lower floors in the building, or in bigger labs. I also
>needed some sleep, which I wasn't getting at the "Y.". Across from my
>room, a woman had nightly epileptic seizures due to her brain cancer, and
>I spent about an hour every night with a stick between her jaws. The
>woman next to her was a black opera singer dying of throat cancer, whose
>groans kept me awake. A friend told me about a room near campus where I
>felt I could get a decent night's sleep.
>
>I moved there for the final week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, but before I spent
>a single night there, Dr. Mirand arrived, white-faced and upset. I didn't
>have funds for the week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st, as the landlord kept the
>money, so Dr. Mirand accessed a special fund to pay the bill for the final
>week of Aug. 25-Sept. 1st. I kept the receipt as a souvenir of his
>generosity, and because of the private fund's number written on the
>receipt, which I tought interesing. Dr. Mirand was angry with me, yes, and
>rumors spread that I was in the doghouse over the incident, but
>nevertheless I presented my paper on August 31st - as did others in the
>program-and he grudgingly praised the paper. It's possible Dr. Moore may
>have intervened to keep me in the program. Or, being a very kind man, Dr.
>Moore may have decided not to tell me that Dr. Mirand dismissed me from
>the program so close to the finish. My work was too important to simply
>drop, and I ended up receiving awards, including a $1,300 stipend from NSF
>funds provided to the program.
>
>Dr. Moore remained in contact with me until I went to New Orleans in 1963,
>and authorized some standard lab equipment to be sent to St. Francis
>College in September, including 200 plastic flasks for tissue culture
>purposes. I hope that Dr. Mirand will look into the records, as I was
>never told I was dismissed from the program, nor did I ever sign any
>release papers at any time. I apologize for any inconveniences this has
>caused Dr. Mirand, who has done so much for so many students in cancer
>research. Judyth Vary Baker
>
>2) Reily Co. told her that the green glasses were only offered as premiums
>in 1959-60.
>
>Question: how would I have known that green glasses were EVER offered as
>premiums by Reily? Pure guesswork? Bob Vernon is on record as going a
>few years ago to Wm. B. Reily and giving him a heads-up about me. It is
>then easy to claim that green glasses weren't sent out as premiums in
>mid-1963, only earlier. Just as the 'error' saying I was at Roswell in
>1962, this seems another convenient 'error.' Once again, how would I have
>known about green glasses as premiums, especially three or four years
>earlier? Nobody ever brought out such a detail. Go ahead, take the
>company's word for it, but common sense should tell you that actually
>admitting such a premium existed at all goes far.
>
>3) She found documents indicating that the Russian course couldn't have
>been created for you, that it was in existence from an earlier time.
>
>I think I was enrolled in Dr. T Concevitch's MJC class in Fall of 1960,
>and later audited the class, when I could, in 1961. But in 1959,1960, and
>1961, I was being sent around to help raise funds for the new technology
>building at Manatee High School, and our science projects. Some newspaper
>articles exist mentioning my work to raise such funds. Since this had
>nothing to do with research, I haven't made those articles public. I was
>missing a lot of school, though, and when I was at the Sarasota Air Force
>base at a luncheon, in 1959, I was asked by the retired officers there to
>learn Russian. They wanted me to read reports on science progress in the
>USSR.
> Col. Doyle brought up the suject t them because David Tracy and Dave
>Deitrich, at Manatee County High School (then so named) were pushing,
>along with me, for Russian classes at our high school. Dave Deitrich is
>now a lawyer who can be contacted to verify that he helped lobby not only
>for the science seminar to be created, but also for Russian to be taught.
>The three of us got the science Seminar, but not the high school Russian
>classes, as we simply didn't have enough electives time for both.
>Deitrich and Tracy went on to enroll in Russian at the University of
>Florida, which is on record. I think Dave Tracy minored in Russian.
> Back in 1959, I said I'd be happy to study Russian if they would find
>me a teacher who could teach the class at night. I believe they located
>Dr. Concevitch, who was teaching classes in an extension program, possibly
>with New College, and got him to start teaching at Manatee Jr. College.
>See the attached statement showing I had personal correspondence with Dr.
>Concevitch (envelope) and my mother's statement showing I attended in 1960
>and 1961, not just 1960, and that my instruction was privately funded.
>They are only looking at my official attendance record for Fall of 1960, I
>believe, while Concevitch may have started teaching at the Jr. College
>that spring or summer. But it was my talk at the air force base that
>created the demand for a Russian class in 1959. I had such a hectic
>chedule that I was unable to attend night classes in 1959 and had to wait
>until 1960, but I still had many absences and had to end up auditing that
>course, too.
>
>At least they must now admit there was a paper presented, and that no
>layman or hig school science student 45 years ago could have done that
>kind of research-- that it is genine cancer research-- something they
>claimed I did not accomplish. of course Sister Claire, knowing me only
>six weeks, did none of that research herself, but was needed to sponsor
>the paper and vett it. And 'dismissed' at Roswell, which I was never told,
>if true was due to a housing violation, not lack of resarch ability, and
>that decision was overturned, or at least changed so I could continue my
>work under Dr. Moore alone, who was supportive the whole way. ==j==
>
Dave Reitzes
> On May 3, 1:24 am, howardp <ho...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Seems she is still sticking with the SV-40 stuff. From my essay:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm
> > > <quote on>
>
> > > "Deadly Alliance" says that the virus in the “cocktail” on which the
> > > little band of researchers was working was theAIDSvirus, but she
> > > told various Dutch media outlets that she was working with SV-40
> > > (Simian Virus 40).
>
> > "Deadly Alliance" is either an early draft I worked on or the title of an
> > outline I had made for research purposes alone. The one you and Reitzes
> > have later doubled in length, was much clarified, and then was
> > discontinued. As I just informed Reitzes, neither were intended for
> > publication. If there is anything out there that says she was working with
> > theAIDSvirus, it is wrong. This was just my feeble mind trying to make
> > sense of all she was saying and writing in a relatively short amount of
> > time.
>
> Judyth told me, in an e-mail of October 7, 2000: "I spent ten hours
> being interrogated by a expert in AIDS-HIVyesterday."
>
> Care to tell us who this expert was and why he was questioning Judyth?
Howard?
You and Martin seem equally adept at avoiding questions about your
guru.
> I have more accurately been descibing SV-40 -- especially the
>
> > mutated form of it "serendipidously" created by Dr. Sherman -- as a virus
> > that breaks down the immune system LIKEAIDS. Haslam has his own thoughts
> > about which I am not expert enough to comment.
>
> > Freshen up your Web site, Herr Professor.
>
> > Please tell me you will stop stealing private e-mails, not to mention
> > publishing copyrighted documents.
>
> > H
Dave