Oswald cleared in JFK shooting!
charles wallace
seconds after the shots.
The Altgens photo taken about 3 seconds before the JFK head shot shows the
President's limousine, the Secret Service follow-up car, the Vice
President's car, and the VP SS follow-up car on Elm and no others. Mr.
Cabell, the Mayor of Dallas and Mrs. Cabell are the next car and they are
on Houston starting to turn onto Elm. Approximately 3 seconds after the
JFK head shot the Cabell car stops for a number of seconds as they are
turning from Houston to Elm. Mrs. Cabell's WC testimony confirms this.
The Couch film follows the Wiegman film in the sequence of events. There
is the same scene in both films that tie them together in time. Couch
started filming approximately 20 seconds after Wiegman starts filming.
Couch shows DPD Officer Baker running to the TSBD entrance from the
traffic island where he parked his motorcycle and reaching the entrance
approximately 5 seconds after the start of the Couch film. TSBD employees
Lovelady and Shelley (who are seen in the Altgens photo in the TSBD
entrance way) run to the traffic light concrete island after the shots to
talk to Gloria Calvary who is yelling that JFK is shot. Shelley says in
his WC testimony that while they are there at the traffic light concrete
island they see Officer Baker and TSBD Supervisor Truly go into the TSBD
entrance. The opening frames of Wiegman show Shelley, Lovelady, and
Calvary at the traffic light pole and in the same frame Oswald is standing
on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way.
The start of the Wiegman film at approximately 16 seconds after the JFK
head shot is congruent with 9 or more time constraining events. These
facts can be dismissed and we can claim that its Lovelady we see in the
early frames of the Wiegman film but we also would have to claim Mrs.
Cabell and others are wrong in claiming the motorcade stopped. We would
need to claim Shelley and others are wrong about where they were when DPD
Baker and TSBD Truly entered the TSBD. We would have to deny our own eyes
in seeing the same scene in both films. These are just some of the things
that have to be wrong for it to be Lovelady seen in the Wiegman film in
the middle of the TSBD entrance way.
It is possible that Oswald only came outside just seconds after the shots
as Shelley and Lovelady were leaving the top landing of the entrance way.
DPD Captain Fritz in his WC testimony said that Oswald told him that he
saw the excitement. In Fritz's interrogation notes among the responses to
the question where were you when the shots were fired are "out with
Shelley in front".
Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
Greg Werner
"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27781-435...@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
Charles,
First post to this group although I have followed sporadically over the
years.
My only point for you:
It is very difficult for me to accept any of your theories when your main
web site puts forth the theory that one of the shots that hit Kennedy only
entered his body a few inches. The ballistics and physics that could
possibly permit this to happen are not consistent with any rational single
or multi-shooter scenario. When your "main" theory of the case is that far
off base, any new theories that you bring to the table have to be treated
with a high degree of skepticism.
Anthony Marsh
I agree except that you can not rule out that there could be some type of
shot which would only penetrate only a few inches. There have been cases
where someone was shot with a lower velocity bullet such as a .22 which
went only 4 inches and stayed in the body. Or a .45 caliber bullet which
was stopped by hitting the vertebra. But of course the problem with that
is that they show up on X-rays and no intact bullet showed up on JFK's
X-rays. And the shallow wound theory does not explain the damage in the
neck. I can't find any support for a different caliber shot. While I also
disagree with his theories, I would be careful not to say there there are
no conditions which could produce a shallow wound.
BTW, I would remind you that WC defenders have a similar wacky theory
called the SBT in which a bullet penetrates the thigh only an inch or so
and then falls out. Magically into Connally's pants cuff.
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
charles wallace
Re: Oswald cleared in JFK shooting!
Date: Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 1:30pm
We know that upon reviewing interrogation reports of authorities, DPD
Fritz's notes, and the WC testimony of James Jarman Jr. and Harold Norman
that Oswald was in or near the domino room on the first floor in the TSBD
at approximately 12:23 pm. He told authorities that he saw "Junior" and
"Shorty" go through the (big) room while he was having lunch alone. Jarman
and Norman had been out front but decided they could get a better view
from a high floor window in the TSBD. They walked around back and entered
the back door. The east elevator was not there. Bonnie Ray Williams had
taken it to the 6th floor and was eating his lunch in the SN window.
Jarman and Norman exposed themselves from the rear to anyone in the domino
room entrance by going to the west elevator. They took the west elevator
to the 5th floor and went to the southeast windows. Williams heard them on
the floor below him and took the east elevator to the 5th floor to join
them. This was approximately 12:25 pm.
So Oswald was downstairs on the first floor at approximately 12:25 pm and
would have heard the ambulance picking up the epileptic seizure victim.
The JFK motorcade and shots followed this event shortly. These events
could easily have drawn Oswald to come out on the top landing in the TSBD
entrance way briefly before or after the shots. If you look at a photo of
Oswald in shadow in the hallway of the police station after his arrest it
shows his shirt as black and the t-shirt showing white in a vee just like
we see in the early frames of the Wiegman film. It would have been too
late in time for this person seen to have been Lovelady because he had to
be with Shelley at the traffic light talking with Calvary before they went
down the Elm street extension towards the parking lot and railway yards.
charles wallace
The controversial photograph by James Altgens is estimated to have been
taken at the equivalent time of Zapruder frame 255. A blow-up of the
person in the TSBD doorway in that photo who is considered to be Billy
Lovelady is shown on page 186 in the book "The Killing Of A President"
by Robert Groden. In the blow-up you can see that this person Lovelady
is at the extreme left hand side of the entrance opening. You can see
his left arm going around the black man who is on the step or steps
below and in front of him. The black man's face shows up at the belly
height of Lovelady. Now the problem. Dave Wiegman started filming in
the plaza after he heard the third shot I believe he has been quoted as
saying. Well, he could be mistaken in his memory and could have started
before the third shot. In the book "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard
Trask on page 373 Trask states "It would appear through careful analysis
of this film, and aided by the research done by Richard Sprague and Gary
Mack on the timing of the sequence, that Wiegman began filming a little
over three seconds prior to the President being hit in the head." Z313-
Z255= 58 frames. 58/ 18.3 frames per second (the filming rate) = 3.17
seconds. Okay, look at the photo (a frame of the film) on page 373 in
Trask's book which is at the start of the film. The man thought to be
Lovelady is not near the black man who is seen on the left side of the
TSBD entrance. In the TKOAP blow-up there is a white man in a suit and
tie immediately to Lovelady's left. I believe this is Bill Shelley. How
can these two people (Lovelady and Shelley) appear next to the black man
without the time to move there???????
I thought earlier that Wiegman just started his film even earlier than
Z255. This is wrong. The Zapruder film at Z133 shows the Vice
President's car turning from Houston to Elm. There are three cars and
gaps between the VP car and the car Wiegman is riding. The first frame
in Wiegman shows the two cars in front of him turning from Houston and
Elm. The first of these two cars is the Cabell's car. Altgens at Z255
does not even show these two cars. So Wiegman starts filming after the
JFK head shot at Z313 and after Lovelady and Shelley were photographed
in Altgens at Z255. If you look at the first frame in Wiegman you will
see a gap or a large space between the black man at the extreme left in
the TSBD entrance way and the next person on the top landing. This space
is where Lovelady and Shelley were. They said in their testimony that
after the shots they went to the island that is between Elm Street and
the Elm extension street. So that must be Oswald standing in the middle
of the top landing of the TSBD entrance way. His arrest shirt when in
shadow appears black just like this man in Wiegman. In Wiegman the dark
shirt is open in a vee with the t-shirt showing just like Oswald's
arrest shirt because his shirt was missing two top buttons. DPD Fritz
said Oswald told him that he saw the excitement. Fritz has a note that
says "out with Bill Shelley in front".
Testimony Of William H. Shelley
The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and
Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
QUOTE:
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back
up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy
Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old
island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY -
Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building
and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Mr. BALL - Elm
Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple
underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr.
SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do? Mr. SHELLEY -
Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and
I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take? Mr.
SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street. Mr. BALL - The
dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the
building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while
we were on the island.
Note:
Wiegman filmed the 'island' area and a woman is talking to Shelley
there. Shelley has on a suit and tie and is wearing a hat. The guy that
is possibly Lovelady is behind the suit guy with just his head showing.
They are standing very near the light.
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie; deliberate,
contrived and dishonest, but the myth.....persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic," John Fitzgerald Kennedy, 1962
Deepfish
To Anthony Marsh
Holy Cats!
You have X-rays of JFK's back!
After the assassination! -- Wow!
Sorry my friend, I don't buy it.
I agree on many things with you, but not this.
Sincerely,
The Deepfish
charles wallace
Testimony Of Mrs. Earle Cabell
The testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell was taken at 10 a.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell. Mrs. Cabell, my
name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of
Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution
of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the
President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the
joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from
you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cabell, the nature of
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of
Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general
inquiry.
Now Mrs. Cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed
actually to you and your husband, Mayor Earle Cabell, by Mr. J. Lee
Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is
that correct? That letter was dated either the 8th or 9th, or in any
case was received on the 8th or 9th of July? Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mrs. CABELL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for the record, please, ma'am. Mrs.
CABELL. Mrs. Earle Cabell.
Mr. HUBERT. You are the wife of former Mayor Earle Cabell? Mrs. CABELL.
Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You reside with him now at what address? Mrs. CABELL. 5338
Drane.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I think you were with your husband in the
presidential parade on November 22, 1963? Mrs. CABELL. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us in your own words what you observed
concerning the shooting of the President. I might say that your husband
has testified that you were in the second or third car behind the
President's car--the third or fourth car.
Mrs. CABELL. Third or fourth. We have never been able to be sure about
that, because we were under the impression--of course, the chief of
police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the
impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car,
the station wagon apparently with Secret Service men, and then our car.
There have been other statements made which we have never been quite
sure of, that there was a Secret Service car between the presidential
car and the vice presidential car. If that is true, we were one car
further back.
Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible? Mrs.
CABELL. Behind the driver.
Mr. HUBERT. Behind the driver. That would have put--- Mrs. CABELL. Me on
the left.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was on your right?
Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Ray Roberts?
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the
front seat?
Mrs. CABELL. The right of the driver.
Mr. HUBERT. The right of the driver. Now will you tell us in your own
words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the President's death?
Mrs. CABELL. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School
Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us. Congressman
Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned the same way. I
was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each other, The
position of our car was such that when that first shot rang out, my
position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the building. I
was directly facing it.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was still really on Houston? Mrs.
CABELL. No; we were making the turn. Mr. HUBERT. Just on the turn?
Mrs. CABELL. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you
see.
Mr. HUBERT. Since you were actually turned toward Representative Roberts
on your right?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you were facing---- Mrs. CABELL. The building.
Mr. HUBERT. The Texas Depository Building? Mrs. CABELL. I was actually
facing it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary
nature, or heard?
Mrs. CABELL. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I
jerked my head up.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?
Mrs. CABELL. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, and
I just jerked my head up.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you see?
Mrs. CABELL. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those
windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos. Mr. HUBERT. In which
window did you see the projection? Mrs. CABELL. I have always been a
little confused about that, but I think it was the first window.
Mr. HUBERT. On what floor?
Mrs. CABELL. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which
window. There was some confusion in my mind. Mr. HUBERT. But you say
there were double windows. Is the confusion about whether it was the
first or second double window, or the first or second window of the
double windows?
Mrs. CABELL. The first or second window of the first group of double
windows.
Mr. HUBERT. What was this projection?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the
projection.
Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or something
mechanical?
Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or a
human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked my
head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to say
to Earle, "Earle, it is a shot", and before I got the words out, just as
I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a "the second
two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion
in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware
that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation of
this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your
attention from that window?
Mrs. CABELL. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that window
when the second and third shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter? Mrs. CABELL. If I
did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that
hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I
saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw
the policeman running up the grassy slope. Mr. HUBERT. You also
mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade
was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is
a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was. Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that
after all the shots were fired? Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was
much confusion. Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed
the odor? Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mr. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. Mr.
HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the
hospital?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that you
had smelled gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned
it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks
ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he had observed it? Mrs. CABELL. As well as
I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group, a large group, and there
was much conversation. Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any other spontaneous
remarks by anyone else? By spontaneous remarks, I mean remarks made
then, not later. Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts--and I believe this
was after the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of
some seconds--then when the motorcade started up, Congressman Roberts
said--these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: "If
all is well ahead, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting out."
Mr. HUBERT. His previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which
you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was
fired and before you began to move?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any other remark made by anyone other than those
that you have covered?
Mrs. CABELL. No; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "If
all is well----
Mr. HUBERT. Who said?
Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts said, "If all is well, we are headed
for Love Field. We are getting out."
Mr. HUBERT. Did the driver say anything, to your knowledge? Mrs. CABELL.
I don't recall that he said a word. Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you
were standing absolutely still for a few seconds, did you have occasion,
or did you in fact look up at that window again?
Mrs. CABELL. Not again, as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the hospital too? Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with your husband?
Mrs. CABELL. When we reached the hospital, the Presidential car was
pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which
pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. And as my
husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and
said, "'Stay in the car." And I believe at that time that Congressman
Roberts got out of the car. The Texas delegation was standing around the
cars at that time. And I sat in the car with our driver for quite some
time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long, about?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. Time left me that day. I sat there for
quite a long time. I stood up and I saw them taking the President out of
the car. I saw my husband by the carriage when the Governor was taken
out of the car. Then our driver, after they went into the hospital,
turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the Texas
delegation, Senator Yarborough, all of the others--the delegation moved
hack and forth from the car where I was sitting, up to the door of the
hospital. It is my impression that none of them went in. Mr. HUBERT. Did
you go in?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes; twice. Do you want me to tell you both times? Mr.
HUBERT. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. CABELL. Well, this is a little difficult for me to tell. Mr.
HUBERT. Let me put it this way. What I am interested in is whether or
not you saw Jack Ruby there. Did you know him prior to that time? Mrs.
CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen his pictures? Mrs. CABELL. Since;
but I had never seen him before. Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at any
place that you went in the hospital, in front of the hospital, or about
the hospital on that day? Mrs. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him
there, would you tell us just what places you were? Mrs. CABELL. In the
hospital?
Mr. HUBERT. Were you out there for some time? Mrs. CABELL. There came a
time when it was necessary for me to find a ladies room. I walked up to
one of the many police officers at the door and I said, "Officer, I am
Mrs. Earle Cabell." He said, "Yes, Mrs. Cabell, I know." I have no idea
which officer it was. I said, "It is necessary for me to go into the
ladies' room. Can you get me in?" He said, "I can try." He had quite a
good deal of trouble getting me in and identifying me. They did not let
me go in until a nurse's aid was brought to the door. They did not let
me stay on the first floor where the emergency section was. They took me
to the left. This nurse's aid took me to the left with the police
officer following, and we crossed the cafeteria and went over toward the
front of the building. The nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with
me. The policeman stood at the door. We went back the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was
some difficulty getting you in.
Mrs. CABELL. I do not know. An elderly man in shirt sleeves, that I
remember. I assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. I don't
really know that to be true.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there police or State police or city police? Mrs.
CABELL. They were everywhere.
Mr. HUBERT. But you mean they were checking people going into the
hospital?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes. Then as I came in, the policeman escorted me back to
our car. I sat there again, I do not know how much longer I sat, but
somebody brought me a Coca-Cola. We, as you know, had nothing to eat or
drink since coffee at Mr. and Mrs. Eric Jonsson's, where we gathered
before going to Love Field. Then a man came up to me. I have to assume
that he was a Secret Service man. He said, "Are you Mrs. Earle Cabell?"
I said, "Yes." He said, "There are no ladies presently with Mrs.
Kennedy. We feel that it might be nice if you go in." So I handed my
partially drunk Coca-Cola to the driver, and I went in with this man.
Another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this
second time when we got to the door, this man said, "This is Mrs. Earle
Cabell," and we walked right in.
Mr. HUBERT. He said that to whom?
Mrs. CABELL. The man at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. The same man that had been at the door before? Mrs. CABELL.
I assume it was. There was such a short time that elapsed. He took me
down. You turn to the right as you went in the door down this very wide
hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my husband coming
toward us going out. I looked at him and he said, "I will be back." So
we walked on in to this smaller hallway which separated the emergency
rooms, either side of them. Mrs. Kennedy was sitting just outside the
door of Emergency Room No. 1 in a straight chair. I walked up to her----
Mr. HUBERT. She was alone?
Mrs. CABELL. She was alone. There were, I am sure, Secret Service men.
There was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting alone.
I walked up to her and I said, "Mrs. Kennedy, I am Elizabeth Cabell. I
wish there was something that I could do to help." And in a very dazed
manner she said, "Yes, I remember you gave me the roses." And somebody
put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a few moments. And
she said, "I would like a cigarette." My purse was on the floor behind
my chair. I turned around to pick up my purse to give her a cigarette,
and when I turned back around, she was-walking into Emergency Room No. 2
I judge that it was next to the President, the room the President's body
was in, and her purse was on a carriage in that emergency room. She was
fumbling in her purse, and I said to her, "I have a cigarette here for
you." It was exactly as though she had not heard me. She didn't answer
me at all, and she kept fumbling in her purse and finally she came up
with a cigarette. Then she turned to me as though she had never seen me
before, but said, "But I don't have a match." And I said, "I have a
match here for you." I lighted her cigarette and she turned around and
walked out of that emergency room. We went back to the two chairs
outside of Emergency Room No. 1 and sat down. Just at that time I looked
up and saw a Catholic priest coming toward us. It was not Father Huber.
It was a man I did not recognize. I later understood he was the Catholic
chaplain of the hospital. I am not sure about that. I got up and walked
a few steps to meet him, and I said, "Father, take my chair by Mrs.
Kennedy." Which he did do. In the meantime, my husband had come back in,
and I stepped back where my husband was standing, and we stood there
until the casket was wheeled out.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any announcement made to Mrs. Kennedy of the death of
her husband?
Mrs. CABELL. Not while I was in there. I am under the impression--you
see, I was still sitting out in the car when they brought Vice
President, I guess then, and Mrs. Johnson out and put them in the car
and took them away.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the President's death when you went to Mrs.
Kennedy?
Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts had come back to the car and said, "He
is gone."
Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that Mrs. Kennedy then knew of the
death of her husband when you first came up to her? Mrs. CABELL. That is
my impression. We did not discuss it.
Greg Werner
"Anthony Marsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:6St6f.1097$c%.397@trndny02...
Thanks for the reply but I'll stick by my statement by adding that my
opinion is formulated in the context of an assassination attempt. I
understand that it is theoretically possible for a bullet to only enter a
body a few inches or so. I would even hazard a guess that it could occur in
at least two ways - 1) a bullet with a partial load or 2) a bullet shot from
an extreme distance that has lost much of its velocity. The partial load
bullet in the context of an assassination attempt is unlikely enough to be
ruled as impossible IMO. An assassin would never choose a partial load
bullet along with normal ones. That leaves us with an accidental partial
load which would never hit its target because the assassin would be aiming
much too low to accomodate the reduced charge. The bullet shot from an
extreme distance doesn't make any sense either. Shot with a 45degree angle
from half a mile away for example? Doesn't make any sense.
> BTW, I would remind you that WC defenders have a similar wacky theory
> called the SBT in which a bullet penetrates the thigh only an inch or so
> and then falls out. Magically into Connally's pants cuff.
This is the kind of reasoning that has kept me away from this group over the
years. I guess I would call this intellectual relativism. "My point may be
untenable and ridiculous but it is only as "wacky" as the opposing view".
This isn't a personal attack, by the way. Just my observation of this group
in general.
Anthony Marsh
Those are two possible explanations. Other shootings have been full
loads and very close up. There are other variables. Such as a suicide
shot in the head. Or a low velocity bullet like a .22.
> bullet in the context of an assassination attempt is unlikely enough to be
> ruled as impossible IMO. An assassin would never choose a partial load
Not my theory, but people like Dr. Chapman theorize that the first shot
was a dud, due to a defective primer. I have pointed out that the first
shots often has a reduced muzzle velocity, in the area of 1871 fps. But
neither of those would make a bullet fail to go though the neck in my
opinion.
> bullet along with normal ones. That leaves us with an accidental partial
The Italians did make a reduced load round, but as you say there is no
advantage to an assassin using that unique round unless in conjunction
with a sound moderator.
> load which would never hit its target because the assassin would be aiming
> much too low to accomodate the reduced charge. The bullet shot from an
I would think that is correct, although aiming at the head might produce
a low miss.
> extreme distance doesn't make any sense either. Shot with a 45degree angle
> from half a mile away for example? Doesn't make any sense.
>
I have not see that solution offered.
>
>>BTW, I would remind you that WC defenders have a similar wacky theory
>>called the SBT in which a bullet penetrates the thigh only an inch or so
>>and then falls out. Magically into Connally's pants cuff.
>
>
> This is the kind of reasoning that has kept me away from this group over the
> years. I guess I would call this intellectual relativism. "My point may be
> untenable and ridiculous but it is only as "wacky" as the opposing view".
> This isn't a personal attack, by the way. Just my observation of this group
> in general.
>
The point of that example is to show that WC defenders have their own
set of wacky theories.
>
>>Anthony Marsh
>>The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
>>
>
>
>
--
Anthony Marsh
Please clarify. You can see the X-rays for yourself.
http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard
PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ----
Gerry Simone (H)
Weigman film that shows what you claim.
I want to believe it but I must see it first.
Shelley in his testimony didn't say he was with Oswald.
Oswald did say he was with Shelley out front but wouldn't that mean he
really was WITH him and the others. If they left the top steps, then
Oswald wasn't with him if he just arrived and Shelley just left. He would
have said that he got to the top steps and saw Shelley and others but not
that he was WITH him.
Maybe your right but show me the money!
Thanks for your posts Charles.
"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27781-435...@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net...
Gerry Simone (H)
It's B & W but you can see white specks for the lines in Lovelady's plaid
shirt.
I don't have any doubt that its Lovelady.
"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11573-43...@storefull-3176.bay.webtv.net...
twvaug...@yahoo.com
Who ever said that CE-399 fell out of JBC's thigh and into his "pants
cuff"?
Todd
Backstreet Aftermath
charles wallace
My interpretation of Mrs. Cabell's testimony is that in her motorcade
car after the third shot they heard the car stopped in about three
seconds time as it was making the turn in front of the TSBD from Houston
to Elm Street. They stayed stopped and in that time Congressman Roberts
said "That is a 30-06" and "If all is well.." which consumed
approximately 10 seconds time and then the car started again. Then about
three seconds after the Cabell's car started moving again Wiegman starts
his film. The opening scene shows the Cabell car moving and almost
entirely on Elm Street. So the opening scene is approximately 16 seconds
after the third shot. The frames in the first seconds of the film show
Oswald in the middle of the TSBD entrance way and then Wiegman pans to
the left showing three people to the left of the traffic light pole,
Gloria Calvary, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley. 19 seconds earlier
Altgens photographed Lovelady and Shelley on the top landing in the TSBD
entrance way right where there is a gap now shown in the Wiegman film
between Oswald and the black man on the extreme left hand side. Wiegman
is in Camera car no.1 and as his car slows turning onto Elm he jumps
from the car and continues filming while he is running. The Couch film
starts approximately 20 seconds after Wiegman starts. Couch is in Camera
car no.3. Both Wiegman and Couch film Camera cars no.1 and no.2 on Elm
Street which links both films in time. Couch opens showing DPD Baker
running to the TSBD from the concrete traffic light island. Shelley and
Lovelady have already left the traffic light pole and turned to go down
the street when they see Baker and Truly go into the TSBD. See Shelley's
WC testimony.
Anthony Marsh
Thanks. I must admit that I am annoyed by Quick Time. Bad aspect ratio
and too small. Is there any way to capture individual frames and blow
them up?
Anthony Marsh
> Tony,
>
> Who ever said that CE-399 fell out of JBC's thigh and into his "pants
> cuff"?
>
> Todd
>
I don't know who started it, but various WC defenders have made that
claim. Have you read Sturdivan's book yet? Here is what he says on page
132 [emphasis mine]:
The ONLY explanation is that the missing bullet was expelled from
Connally's thigh by the movement of his leg muscles somewhere between
Dealey Plaza and the hospital, perhaps even when he stood and attempted
to exit the car upon arriving at the hospital.
____________________________________________
Now, if CE 399 fell out of Connally's thigh in the limousine, explain
how else it could magically get onto a stretcher.
Also read Belin and Jacob Cohen.
Anthony Marsh
> You would be doing me and others a favour if there's a link to view this
> Weigman film that shows what you claim.
>
> I want to believe it but I must see it first.
>
> Shelley in his testimony didn't say he was with Oswald.
>
> Oswald did say he was with Shelley out front but wouldn't that mean he
> really was WITH him and the others. If they left the top steps, then
> Oswald wasn't with him if he just arrived and Shelley just left. He would
> have said that he got to the top steps and saw Shelley and others but not
> that he was WITH him.
>
As Loftus points out, it could be a problem of telescoping time. Maybe
Oswald saw them when he walked out of the TSBD.
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
Do your users want the best web-email gateway? Don't let your
customers drift off to free webmail services install your own
web gateway!
-- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_webmail.htm ----
tomnln
I think JBC's pant cuff is OUTSIDE his pants.
Is Arlen Specter writing this stuff?
<twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1130111661.5...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
charles wallace
If the facts are examined carefully then it will be determined that the
Wiegman film was started seconds after the JFK head shot. If the facts
are further studied then the time that elapsed from the time of the JFK
head shot to the start of the Wiegman film it will be determined as
approximately 16 seconds. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady both said
that after the shots they went to the traffic light pole island for a
moment before going down the Elm Street extension that is in front of
the TSBD. They said Gloria Calvary was yelling that President Kennedy
had been shot and was running toward them. At the start or opening
frames of the Wiegman film they show a man in a suit and tie wearing a
hat next to a woman at the light pole. The woman appears to have both
arms to her head explaining something. There is a man's head seen
between the two and appears to be the same height taller than the suit
man as Lovelady is seen taller than the suit man (Shelley) in the photo
taken by Altgens about 3 seconds before the JFK head shot as they are
standing in the TSBD doorway. In the same opening frames of the Wiegman
film they show a man that appears to be Lee H. Oswald. It had been
claimed by some that it was Lovelady not Oswald. If Lovelady is with
Shelley across the street at that time then its most likely Oswald.
The Couch film is established to have been started after the Wiegman
film started. Identifying the same scene of Camera cars no. 1 and 2 in
the approximate same place on Elm Street in both Wiegman and Couch films
establishes a timing relationship between the films. I estimate that
Couch started filming approximately 20 seconds after Wiegman started
filming. In the early frames of Couch you can see DPD Baker running
towards the TSBD. Shelley said they were on the concrete traffic light
pole island when they saw Baker enter the TSBD. Upon careful review of
the Couch film, the early frames do not show the same three people at
the traffic light pole as seen in the Wiegman film. But you can see a
man in a suit and hat turned and going in the direction Shelley said
they went. Not too far behind is the head of a man protruding and
partly hidden behind a woman's head. The man seems to have the same
height relationship as to the suit/hat man as Lovelady has to Shelley.
Conclusions: We see in the Wiegman film Lee H. Oswald standing in the
middle of the TSBD doorway approximately 16 seconds and again
approximately 21 seconds after the shot that hit President John F.
Kennedy in the head.
twvaug...@yahoo.com
Tony,
In 30 years of researching this case I have never once seen the claim that
CE-399 fell out of JBC's thigh and landed in his "pants cuff". If you
have, you have an obligation to provide a citation.
Of course I've read Sturdivan's book. Page xxii should have clued you in
to that.
If CE-399 fell out of the thigh while JBC was still in the limousine it
likely would have been trapped in the space between the outside of JBC's
thigh and the inside of his pants leg, at least until somewhere in the
process of the removal of his pants. Funny you couldn't figure that out.
Funnier still that you apparently would think it would back itself out of
the hole in the pants. Tony, you have your own "Magic Bullet". I didn't
know you had it in you.
Todd
Anthony Marsh
> Tony,
>
> In 30 years of researching this case I have never once seen the claim that
> CE-399 fell out of JBC's thigh and landed in his "pants cuff". If you
> have, you have an obligation to provide a citation.
>
Citation as in a URL that you can click on? I doubt there is one online.
I already suggested that you check Belin and Jacob Cohen. It might be in
a TV or radio interview. I am talking about what WC defenders have said
to me personally, often at researcher conferences.
> Of course I've read Sturdivan's book. Page xxii should have clued you in
> to that.
>
No, that does not tell me that you actually read that section of the book.
> If CE-399 fell out of the thigh while JBC was still in the limousine it
> likely would have been trapped in the space between the outside of JBC's
> thigh and the inside of his pants leg, at least until somewhere in the
> process of the removal of his pants. Funny you couldn't figure that out.
OK, let's hear some more wacky theories from the nonconspiracists. So,
what happens when Connally stands up (and yes folks you can try this at
home)? The bullet falls out of his pants. Funny you couldn't figure that
out all by yourself.
> Funnier still that you apparently would think it would back itself out of
> the hole in the pants. Tony, you have your own "Magic Bullet". I didn't
> know you had it in you.
>
I never said anything about the hole in his pants. What I'd like to hear
you next come up with is a theory based on the Australian tests for
Discovery Channel where the bullet bounces off his thigh and he catches
it in mid air. You need to try harder.
> Todd
Anthony Marsh
> I think JBC's thigh is INSIDE his pants.
> I think JBC's pant cuff is OUTSIDE his pants.
>
> Is Arlen Specter writing this stuff?
>
I can't remember if Specter ever voiced that opinion.
charles wallace
Let us approach this timing issue for when Wiegman started filming another
way. The Couch film shows DPD Baker running to the TSBD and reaching the
entrance 5 seconds after the start of the film. The WC reacted Baker's
run. They claim it took 15 seconds from the last shot til Baker enters
the TSBD and that is having Baker traveling 200 feet on his motorcycle,
parking it, and then running 45 feet to the entrance. Now there is about
20 seconds of time elapsed between Wiegman's film start and Couch's film
start based on a scene this common to both films. Let's back it up. 15
seconds minus 5 in Couch leaves us 10 seconds. 20 seconds minus 10
seconds leaves us 10 seconds. So according to this calculation Wiegman
started filming 10 seconds before the last shot. Well according to
everbody's assassination scenario the assassination of JFK did not take
that long. If correct it would mean that Wiegman started filming about 2
seconds before the first shot. The Wiegman film does show him calmly
panning to the left and then abruptly stopping and swinging the camera
back to the TSBD opening. I have been down this road before. This
scenario matches perfectly with my first shot at about Z181, but the
problem is 10 seconds from the head shot puts the Z frame at about Z130.
We can see at Z133 on the Zapruder film that the Vice President's car is
still on Houston, then behind them is the VP SS car, and then the Cabell
car with a gap.
The Wiegman film shows the Cabell car turning and almost straight but
entirely on Elm. Now 3 seconds before the head shot which is the time of
the Altgens photo (Z255) only the VP SS car is seen at the rear and on
Elm. The Cabell car has not yet turned onto Elm. Mrs. Cabell said they
were in the turn but on Elm when they stopped after the last shot. The
only scenario that fits the facts is that the Wiegman film started 16
seconds after the last shot. Oswald is standing in the doorway of the
TSBD in the opening frames and told DPD Fritz that's where he was.
Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvary are at the traffic island light in the
opening frames and that is where they can be seen. DPD Baker entered the
TSBD at (16+20+5=) 41 seconds after the last shot. Baker said that on the
day of the assassination it took him longer than the 15 seconds. The WC
admitted that longer than 15 seconds was probable and most likely the
case.
Conclusion: The authorities have accused a person of killing the
President of the United States but the guy didn't do any shooting in
Dealey Plaza and had a alibi for where he was during the shooting.
twvaug...@yahoo.com
1. "Citation" as in any "citation" that will support your claim. Any
citation will do, Tony, government volume, book, documentary, magazine
article, newspaper article, document, interview, oral history, letter,
email, note, etc. My resources on the JFK assassination are vast (I have a
room literally overflowing with research material on the case), and I am
in no way limited to juts the Internet, so I am not in turn limited to
requiring a URL citation (and quite frankly I find it somewhat bizarre
that you would default to believing that I would).
As for me checking Belin or Cohen, you made the claim, Tony, so you do the
work in finding the citation and posting it. If you have it, post it.
2. I read that section of the book.
3. Do you really think John Connally stood up on two feet in the limousine
after being shot, or after the limousine arrived at Parkland (do you also
think he exited the limousine on his own and just hopped up on the
gurney)?
I don't.
But let's say he did.
You're working from the presupposition that the bullet had already come of
the wound in the thigh before Connally "stood up". But you don't know that
for a fact, do you Tony? The bullet could have still been partially in the
wound when he "stood up", and only fully come out of the wound as the
pants were being pulled off by the nurses, the cloth snagging the exposed
portion of the bullet and pulling it out from the wound. The bullet then
would have been trapped within the left pants leg, finally falling out
onto the stretcher during the final removal of the pants, or by some other
manipulation of them (emptying the pockets, etc.)
Funny you couldn't figure that out all by yourself.
4. The cuffed portion of a pants cuff is on the outside of the pants, not
the inside. For the bullet to come out of the wound and land in Connally's
pants cuff, one would think that it would have to do so on the outside of
the pants. To wind up on the outside of the pants after coming out of the
wound, the bullet would have to pass through the hole in the pants, from
inside to outside.
It's a moot point though, as I highly doubt that any reasonably
intelligent researcher has ever made this claim. However, if some less
than reasonably intelligent researcher made the claim, and you bit on it,
it reveals much about your ability to evaluate your sources.
Tony, I enjoy your posts. Your inability to think clearly, coupled with
your lack of imagination, never fails to make an impression on me.
But here's a chance to redeem yourself: why do you think the bullet failed
to penetrate, even partially, the gelatin block that represented
Connally's thigh in the Australian tests for Discovery Channel?
Try hard.
Todd
charles wallace
man on the extreme left hand side of the entrance opening to the TSBD and
he is standing a couple of steps down from the top landing. Next there is
a man on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way who some
people claim is Lovelady. Continuing to the right there is another
person. He is difficult to see but I could believe that he has a suit on
and some claim that it is Shelley. Now the Altgens photograph taken
approximately 3 seconds before the JFK head shot shows the black man's
face in front of Lovelady's stomach and Lovelady blocking part of
Shelley's body. Lovelady's right shoulder is blocked from view by the
left side wall of the entrance way. Lovelady's left arm appears to go in
front of the black man and touch the wall. Are we seeing all this
alignment of three people, one behind the other, in one photographic image
(Altgens) versus three people spread out in another photographic image
(Wiegman) because of just the angle in which the same position of the
people viewed is different?
That has to be the answer for those folks that claim Wiegman started
filming at approximately the same time that Altgens took his photo. I see
problems in believing this. If a man stands in the middle of the TSBD
entrance way opening you can make him appear closer to the left hand side
by looking at him at a angle but the width of the opening now appears less
and the man will appear equal distances to the left edge and right edge of
the opening. Look at Altgens. This is not the case. The man, Lovelady is
very close to the left hand side.
Lovelady moved? He can't instantaneously move. Altgens shows that the
last car seen in the motorcade on Elm is the Vice President's Secret
Service car and Wiegman shows a different car in that same position, Mayor
Cabell's car. So the start of Wiegman has to be some point in time after
Altgens. Mrs. Cabell said they were in the turn from Houston to Elm when
the last shot happened and then they stopped, the whole motorcade stopped.
Wiegman only shows moving cars so this had to have occurred before Wiegman
started filming. Mrs. Cabell described or stated the words she heard
during the time they were stopped. A reasonable period of time to account
for the events that occurred between the last shot and Wiegman starting
his filming of the Cabell car finishing its turn and seeing it completely
on Elm is 16 seconds.
Now Gloria Calvary was not too far down Elm watching the motorcade. I
estimate it took her about 10 seconds to run towards the TSBD yelling that
the President had been shot. I estimate she didn't start running until a
couple of seconds elapsed. I think she caught the attention of Lovelady
and Shelley about 6 seconds after the last shot and they ran to meet her.
I think they met each other at the concrete traffic island light pole
about 12 seconds after the last shot where they are seen about 4 seconds
later in the Wiegman film. Now it took DPD Baker only 5 seconds to run
even a longer distance than from the TSBD entrance to the traffic light
pole so 6 seconds for Shelley and Lovelady is reasonable. I believe in
the 19 seconds that elapsed between the Altgens photo and the start of the
Wiegman film we missed seeing the motorcade stopped for 10 seconds, seeing
Gloria Calvary run, seeing Shelley and Lovelady run, seeing DPD Baker ride
his motorcycle to the concrete traffic island, and possibly seeing Lee H.
Oswald come out of the TSBD and stand in the middle of the top landing.
Now for those that agree that the VP SS car versus the Mayor Cabell car
issue means that the Wiegman film was started after the Altgens photo was
taken but disagree with my 19 second difference then tell me when.
Anthony Marsh
> Tony,
>
> 1. "Citation" as in any "citation" that will support your claim. Any
> citation will do, Tony, government volume, book, documentary, magazine
> article, newspaper article, document, interview, oral history, letter,
> email, note, etc. My resources on the JFK assassination are vast (I have a
> room literally overflowing with research material on the case), and I am
> in no way limited to juts the Internet, so I am not in turn limited to
> requiring a URL citation (and quite frankly I find it somewhat bizarre
> that you would default to believing that I would).
>
Haven't we danced this dance before? Remember when I was talking about the
acoustical evidence and referred to a "fouling shot." You were totally
unaware of the term and accused me of simply making it up from my
imagination. Due to the circumstances of where we were at the time I could
not readily show you the documentation. When I got home I copied the
definition from the dictionary for you.
In another thread I was mentioning the possibility that the bullet which
hit Kennedy's back (not neck) damaged or excited both his C-7 nerve and
his C-8 nerve. Someone shot back that there is no such thing as a C-8
nerve because humans have only 7 cervical vertebrae. It took me only about
5 seconds to point to some URLs which illustrate the C-8 nerve and what
area of the body it goes to. But did that person even bother clicking on
the links and reading the examples I pointed out? No, and he continues to
claim that there is no such thing as the C-8 nerve. Do YOU continue to
claim that there is no such thing as a "fouling shot" and that I simply
made it up, even after I copied the definition from the dictionary for
you, as well as the example use from the document from H.P. White
Laboratory?
I don't know about you, but most other posters here can figure out that if
I make a reference to something, I can document it. I may not specify
exactly where it came from as part of the first message. I may need to dig
out the page and quote it or scan it in for some people who do not have
access to the same material or documents. I am patient to a fault.
> As for me checking Belin or Cohen, you made the claim, Tony, so you do the
> work in finding the citation and posting it. If you have it, post it.
>
No problem. I may not have the Belin book on my shelf, but I may have
copied out the pages. You don't even know who Cohen is and there is no way
that you'd have copies of what he has written or said in his exchanges
with me in person, such as debating on radio.
> 2. I read that section of the book.
>
> 3. Do you really think John Connally stood up on two feet in the limousine
> after being shot, or after the limousine arrived at Parkland (do you also
> think he exited the limousine on his own and just hopped up on the
> gurney)?
>
> I don't.
>
The statements indicate that Connally tried to stand up to get out of
the way to allow them to remove the President first.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We're back with Nellie Connally, the former first lady of Texas.
And we're now at Parkland Hospital on the early afternoon of November
22, 1963. Now, the first attention is for the president, right? I mean,
how do they handle this? They've got a governor and a...
CONNALLY: Well, the Secret Service were racing around the car. And they
were saying, Mr. President, Mr. President. They were trying to get
Jackie, really, out of the car. They said, Ms. Kennedy, get out of the
car. And she wouldn't get out of the car.
KING: Did she say anything?
CONNALLY: No. All of a sudden, John just heaved himself up out of my lap
and fell over.
KING: Hit the side of the car.
CONNALLY: Fell over to the door. The door was by him. And I asked him
later, I said, what were, you know, what were you trying to do? And he
said, I was trying -- I knew the door was by me. And I was trying to get
out of the car so they could get the president out. See, I was tormented
all this time because I knew John was still breathing. And I didn't know
how long...
KING: And you thought the president was dead.
CONNALLY: Yes.
KING: Because you'd seen the grab and you had seen the matter, right?
CONNALLY: And I had the stuff all over. And I wondered how long should I
sit there doing nothing. So, somebody opened that door and some man and
picked John up. How he could, I don't know.
KING: Your husband was a big man.
CONNALLY: Put him on a gurney and it started off. They started off.
KING: And you raced up.
CONNALLY: I ran behind it. What I was running from and what I was
running to, I didn't know.
KING: Did they take him in before they took the president in?
CONNALLY: Yes.
KING: Because they had to get him out of the car.
CONNALLY: Yes. They got him out of the car first, because I was already
seated outside the door of trauma room two that John was in when Jackie
came in. They brought us two chairs and we sat outside the doors of
these two rooms.
> But let's say he did.
>
> You're working from the presupposition that the bullet had already come of
> the wound in the thigh before Connally "stood up". But you don't know that
> for a fact, do you Tony? The bullet could have still been partially in the
I have never indicated that this is what I think. Where did you get that
weird idea? I am talking about what STURDIVAN speculated about. What
STURDIVAN claims is the ONLY possible explanation. Of course I think he is
a loon and do not agree with him. Were you even aware of the fact that Dr.
Shaw said in an interview that he was planning to remove the bullet from
Connally's thigh at a later time?
> wound when he "stood up", and only fully come out of the wound as the
> pants were being pulled off by the nurses, the cloth snagging the exposed
> portion of the bullet and pulling it out from the wound. The bullet then
That is entirely possible and I might even believe such a thing myself.
You forget that I am only making fun of STURDIVAN's wacky theory, not
advancing it as my own.
> would have been trapped within the left pants leg, finally falling out
> onto the stretcher during the final removal of the pants, or by some other
> manipulation of them (emptying the pockets, etc.)
>
Perfectly reasonable. But then how did it get onto Ronnie Fuller's
stretcher?
> Funny you couldn't figure that out all by yourself.
>
Funny how I figured it out long before you even heard of this case.
> 4. The cuffed portion of a pants cuff is on the outside of the pants, not
> the inside. For the bullet to come out of the wound and land in Connally's
> pants cuff, one would think that it would have to do so on the outside of
> the pants. To wind up on the outside of the pants after coming out of the
> wound, the bullet would have to pass through the hole in the pants, from
> inside to outside.
>
Hey, it's not MY theory, so I am not the one you should be criticizing.
> It's a moot point though, as I highly doubt that any reasonably
> intelligent researcher has ever made this claim. However, if some less
Jeez, I never said "any reasonably intelligent researcher." I specified
WC defender. Like many here.
> than reasonably intelligent researcher made the claim, and you bit on it,
> it reveals much about your ability to evaluate your sources.
>
Why do you misrepresent this way? I did not bite on it. I laughed at it.
> Tony, I enjoy your posts. Your inability to think clearly, coupled with
> your lack of imagination, never fails to make an impression on me.
>
Your inability to tell the difference between what I believe and what I
tell you that someone else believes bewilders me.
> But here's a chance to redeem yourself: why do you think the bullet failed
> to penetrate, even partially, the gelatin block that represented
> Connally's thigh in the Australian tests for Discovery Channel?
>
I accept their notion that going through TWO ribs slowed their bullet down
more than the expected going through only ONE rib. Newton and all that.
> Try hard.
charles wallace
fired. This belief as I understand it is that about 10 seconds into the
Wiegman film, Wiegman captures as he is running, the faint image of the
JFK limousine right before it goes into the triple underpass. It is
assumed there are no breaks in the filming. If you estimate where this
limo image is in an equivalent Zapruder frame image then timewise you will
conclude that it would be about 7 to 8 seconds after the JFK head shot at
Z313. This would put Wiegman starting his film at the same instant that
Altgens took his photograph at Z255 or a second later. I'm sorry I can
not believe the difference in location of Lovelady and Shelley in Altgens
versus the same supposed people in Wiegman is just due to the angle of
view. Now I can believe movement of the people in one photographic image
versus the other accounts for the different positions, but zero to one
second of time is not enough time for them to physically move.
I think the scenario that the motorcade stopped for about ten seconds as
described by Mrs. Cabell is possible. Then as the motorcade started moving
again Wiegman started his filming approximately 16 seconds after the last
shot. Could the 10 seconds be 8 and the 16 seconds be 12 in my estimate?
Yes.
I think that the faint image of the JFK limo could be a mistake and that
it is maybe the Vice President's limousine that is seen. I'm still in
disbelief of the possibility that we can see the VP's Secret Service car
as the last car on Elm in the Altgens photo and this would be equivalent
in time to the start of Wiegman's film where we see Mayor Cabell's car in
the same spot on Elm as the VP SS car. I don't think angle of view can be
the answer here.
I'm still believing that the Wiegman film shows Oswald in the middle of
the TSBD entrance way. And I'm still believing it shows Shelley,
Lovelady, and Calvary at the traffic light pole on the concrete island
that's in front of the TSBD. I continue to search for confirmation of
these beliefs and will change my beliefs if evidence of some sort proves
me wrong. It won't be the first time that I've been wrong about some
aspect of this case. The complications that arise in this case are
astounding.
charles wallace
says "The Wiegman film sequence of the activity around the shooting scene
lasts approximately 36 1/2 seconds. It is filmed in real time without any
breaks in the sequence." The copy I've seen from the internet is
approximately 33 seconds in length. Anybody know where the 3 1/2 seconds
difference is?
The latest theory I'm exploring to match the evidence is that people
started reacting after the shot that everybody heard and essentially agree
upon as to when it happened instead of acting after the JFK head shot.
This shot is for the LNer in the early Z220s and for the CTers up to the
early Z230s. So within about a half of a second, CTers and LNers agree a
shot occurred. This is 4 1/2 to 5 seconds before the JFK head shot.
The 'Oswald at the TSBD entrance' scenario: Shot at Z229 occurs. Cabell
white convertible stops at approximately Z245 on Houston in front of the
TSBD partially into the turn onto Elm.
Altgens takes his photograph at Z255 showing JFK and Connally reacting to
having been shot and shows the last car on Elm to be the VP SS car. Also
in the photograph it shows Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley in the TSBD
entrance way on the left hand side. The photograph catches Lovelady in
the act of running and leaving the entrance way as exhibited by the angle
of Lovelady's shoulders. Shelley and Lovelady said they went to the
traffic island light pole from the TSBD entrance way. The Couch film
shows this area a little later and shows Officer Marion Baker running a
little longer distance in about 5 seconds. The Altgens photograph was
taken about 3 seconds before the JFK head shot. So now I think it is
possible that the Wiegman film was started at approximately 2 seconds
after the JFK head shot. In the opening frames of Wiegman, Oswald is seen
standing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way on the top landing and
Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvary are at the traffic light pole. This allows
Shelley and Lovelady to be at the concrete island when they saw DPD Baker
and TSBD Truly enter the building which they said happened. The Warren
Commission said Baker entered the TSBD at a minimum of 15 seconds after
the JFK head shot. This scenario allows for the Cabell car to be stopped
for a period of about 5 seconds which Mrs. Cabell said happened.
Feel free to point out any contradictory information to this scenario and
theory.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
wrote:
>Excellent point, Todd.
>
>Tony has his own magic bullet. He also has magic rogue CIA agents,
>magic acoustical evidence, etc.
>
>Look, Tony...does EVERY DETAIL of this case need to be explained? You
>are honestly asking for a burden of proof, then, that could never be
>met.
>
>The bullet that struck JBC in the thigh had expended most of its energy
>and somehow worked itself out onto the stretcher.
>
>CE-399 obviously wasn't planted. To plant evidence so quickly after the
>fact-before all the details were known, etc. exposes the possible
>plotters you believe were behind this to the risk of being exposed.
CE 399 wasn't 'obvious' in any respect. It appeared out of the
timeline of either JFK or JBC and was not seen 'falling' from any
stretcher connected to either one of them. Where are you suggesting
it came from?
>
>It reminds me of the OJ Simpson case when the CT'ers said Fuhrman
>planted the bloody glove, remember? Long before any cops knew whether
>OJ had a solid alibi, the CT'ers have Fuhrman finding a bloody glove
>that he 'planted'.
>
>Somehow, in a way that will never be fully known (and nor does it
>matter) CE-399 wiggled out of JBC's thigh.
CE 399 didn't 'wiggle' anywhere.
>
[...]
Pamela
Anthony Marsh
> Excellent point, Todd.
>
> Tony has his own magic bullet. He also has magic rogue CIA agents,
> magic acoustical evidence, etc.
>
The explosive bullet is not so magical. It has been around since the
Civil War (US).
The rogue CIA agents are not magical. There have been various operations
run by rogue agents. The acoustical evidence was not magic when it
helped win the Kent State Massacre case.
> Look, Tony...does EVERY DETAIL of this case need to be explained? You
> are honestly asking for a burden of proof, then, that could never be
> met.
>
Certainly if you are going to propose a theory then you have the burden
of proof. If you want to just say that you don't know what happened,
that's fine with me.
> The bullet that struck JBC in the thigh had expended most of its energy
> and somehow worked itself out onto the stretcher.
>
Could be. That's one theory. Another theory is that it fell out on the
way to the hospital. Another theory is that it was removed by the
surgeon. Another theory is that it was yanked out when his clothes were
removed. Just for fun I could make up a theory that the bullet had
expended ALL of its energy, just like the Australian test, and he caught
it in mid air. Or it fell into his hat. Gee, this is fun. Not much like
research though.
> CE-399 obviously wasn't planted. To plant evidence so quickly after the
> fact-before all the details were known, etc. exposes the possible
> plotters you believe were behind this to the risk of being exposed.
>
CE 399 could be genuine. I can think of a couple of ways that explain it.
> It reminds me of the OJ Simpson case when the CT'ers said Fuhrman
> planted the bloody glove, remember? Long before any cops knew whether
> OJ had a solid alibi, the CT'ers have Fuhrman finding a bloody glove
> that he 'planted'.
>
So what if OJ had a solid alibi. You're talking about the LA police.
They can make alibis disappear, permanently.
> Somehow, in a way that will never be fully known (and nor does it
> matter) CE-399 wiggled out of JBC's thigh.
>
That's fine with me if you want to simple guess and assume things
without proving them.
> OJ killed Ron and Nicole.
>
Duh! Lots of murderers go free every year.
> LHO killed Tippit and JFK.