Correcting Dr. Mantik
David Von Pein
http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
During this radio appearance, Dr. Mantik tells the audience that
there's something fishy about the fact that President Kennedy's lead
autopsy surgeon, Dr. James Humes, had told Dr. Pierre Finck that a set
of X-rays had already been taken of JFK prior to Humes' phone call to
Finck on 11/22/63, with Mantik saying this:
"This means only one thing--and it's inescapable. The body must
have been there BEFORE 8:00, or these X-rays could not have been taken
so that Humes could make his call [to Dr. Finck] a few minutes after
eight [o'clock]."
Now, apparently Dr. Mantik has never bothered to read Dr. James Humes'
Warren Commission testimony (or maybe Mantik has merely chosen to
ignore it), which has Humes saying this to Arlen Specter and the
Commission:
DR. HUMES -- "The President's body was received at 25 minutes before
8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You
must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were
made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy
examination."
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken
before the dissection started?"
DR. HUMES -- "Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during
the examination which, also maintains for the photographs, which were
made as the need became apparent to make such."
These words (repeated below) spoken by Dr. Humes during his Warren
Commission session on 3/16/64 (less than four months after the
President's autopsy) totally destroy David Mantik's theory about
something suspicious going on with regard to JFK's body at Bethesda
Naval Hospital on the night of Kennedy's autopsy:
"The President's body was received at 25 minutes before 8." --
James J. Humes; March 16, 1964 [at 2 H 349, linked below]
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0179a.htm
Does Dr. Mantik think that Dr. Humes was lying through his teeth when
he told the Warren Commission that JFK's body arrived at 7:35 PM (vs.
the 8:00 figure that Mantik seems to want to believe)?
Once again, it appears that the simplest of tasks (i.e., looking up
Dr. Humes' testimony) is able to thoroughly debunk a conspiracy
theorist's imaginative speculation surrounding certain elements of the
JFK assassination.
BTW, Dr. Humes said exactly the same thing to the HSCA in 1978 when it
comes to the topic of "When did JFK's body arrive at Bethesda?".
Here's what Humes said in '78 to the HSCA (which perfectly aligns with
his WC testimony from 14 years earlier):
DR. HUMES -- "The President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or
7:35."
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>
>http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>
>On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
>appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>
>During this radio appearance, Dr. Mantik tells the audience that
>there's something fishy about the fact that President Kennedy's lead
>autopsy surgeon, Dr. James Humes, had told Dr. Pierre Finck that a set
>of X-rays had already been taken of JFK prior to Humes' phone call to
>Finck on 11/22/63, with Mantik saying this:
>
> "This means only one thing--and it's inescapable. The body must
>have been there BEFORE 8:00, or these X-rays could not have been taken
>so that Humes could make his call [to Dr. Finck] a few minutes after
>eight [o'clock]."
>
>Now, apparently Dr. Mantik has never bothered to read Dr. James Humes'
>Warren Commission testimony (or maybe Mantik has merely chosen to
>ignore it), which has Humes saying this to Arlen Specter and the
>Commission:
Humes fudged and fibbed.
So lets rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence instead. When did the President's
plain shipping casket arrive?
See Boyajian document:
He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm".
See Horne's VOL IV for more details.
Try to rely less on witnesses who are unreliable.
The written record stated when the casket arrived.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
David Von Pein
>>> "Humes fudged and fibbed. So let's rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence
Boyajian document: He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm"." <<<
Which translates to 6:35 PM (EST). Which means that that particular
"shipping" casket (if a casket of that nature ever existed in the first
place) couldn't possibly have contained the body of President Kennedy,
because JFK's body departed Andrews AFB at approx. 6:15 PM EST, and it was
certainly more than just a 20-minute ride (via fairly slow-moving
hearse/ambulance) from Andrews to Bethesda.
So, Dr. Humes' estimate of 7:30 to 7:35 for the arrival time of JFK's
casket is a much more reasonable (and almost certainly accurate) estimate.
Besides, any type of "official" "18:35" arrival time at Bethesda for JFK's
casket certainly doesn't help out Dr. Mantik's theory regarding the
caskets, because Mantik seems to want to believe (via his 12/17/09 Black
Op appearance) that JFK's body "officially" arrived at Bethesda at 8:00
exactly, not 6:35 (18:35).
David Von Pein
ADDENDUM TO MY LAST POST:
But, then too, since David Mantik is apparently a believer in David
Lifton's batch of "body-altering" nonsense, I suppose Mantik also believes
that there were TWO "official" times for casket arrivals at Bethesda that
night (even though I think it would have been physically impossible to get
JFK's body to Bethesda by 6:35 PM on November 22nd, even if you DO swallow
Lifton's silliness about body alteration).
John McAdams
wrote:
>On 19 Dec 2009 11:16:49 -0500, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>>
>>On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
>>appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>>
>>During this radio appearance, Dr. Mantik tells the audience that
>>there's something fishy about the fact that President Kennedy's lead
>>autopsy surgeon, Dr. James Humes, had told Dr. Pierre Finck that a set
>>of X-rays had already been taken of JFK prior to Humes' phone call to
>>Finck on 11/22/63, with Mantik saying this:
>>
>> "This means only one thing--and it's inescapable. The body must
>>have been there BEFORE 8:00, or these X-rays could not have been taken
>>so that Humes could make his call [to Dr. Finck] a few minutes after
>>eight [o'clock]."
>>
>>Now, apparently Dr. Mantik has never bothered to read Dr. James Humes'
>>Warren Commission testimony (or maybe Mantik has merely chosen to
>>ignore it), which has Humes saying this to Arlen Specter and the
>>Commission:
>
>Humes fudged and fibbed.
>
>So lets rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence instead. When did the President's
>plain shipping casket arrive?
>
JFK's body didn't arrive in a plain shipping casket.
The vast majority of witness testimony contradicts the "body bag" and
"shipping casket" nonsense.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
wrote:
>On 19 Dec 2009 11:16:49 -0500, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>>
>>On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
>>appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>>
>>During this radio appearance, Dr. Mantik tells the audience that
>>there's something fishy about the fact that President Kennedy's lead
>>autopsy surgeon, Dr. James Humes, had told Dr. Pierre Finck that a set
>>of X-rays had already been taken of JFK prior to Humes' phone call to
>>Finck on 11/22/63, with Mantik saying this:
>>
>> "This means only one thing--and it's inescapable. The body must
>>have been there BEFORE 8:00, or these X-rays could not have been taken
>>so that Humes could make his call [to Dr. Finck] a few minutes after
>>eight [o'clock]."
>>
>>Now, apparently Dr. Mantik has never bothered to read Dr. James Humes'
>>Warren Commission testimony (or maybe Mantik has merely chosen to
>>ignore it), which has Humes saying this to Arlen Specter and the
>>Commission:
>
>Humes fudged and fibbed.
>
>So lets rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence instead. When did the President's
>plain shipping casket arrive?
>
>See Boyajian document:
>
>He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm".
>
Huh?
Is that 1835 hours?
That's 6:35 p.m.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
wrote:
>
>http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>
>On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
>appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>
One piece of Mantik nonsense was debunked right here on the newsgroup.
Mantik, who believes in Z-film alteration, had asserted that a piece
of paper, seen on the infield of Dealey Plaza in the film, cannot be
seen in any photos of Dealey Plaza.
He inferred it was painted on to give the impression that the film
shows continuous motion.
Cecil Jones simply opened PICTURES OF THE PAIN, found an uncropped
copy of Bothun 4, and it showed the piece of paper also.
It's not like POTP is some kind of obscure source. It's not like only
Gary Mack would have access to the photographic evidence to debunk
Mantik -- and indeed Mantik should have run the idea by Mack, who the
person for photo evidence. Else, he should have run it by Trask.
But hey . . . let's not let facts get in the way of a good theory.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Peter Fokes
Yes. Sergeant Boyajian's report.
<quote on>
That report, provided to the ARRB and authenticated in writing by
Sergeant Boyajian himself ..... The time of arrival of the President's
casket is listed as "1835" hours which equates to 6:35 pm civilian
time.
<quote off>
Inside the ARRB, Vol IV, p. 988
Doug Horne
>
>.John
>--------------
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
PF
Peter Fokes
wrote:
Here is the document (prepared Nov 26, 1963)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1511163
Anthony Marsh
> On 19 Dec 2009 11:16:49 -0500, David Von Pein<davev...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>>
>> On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
>> appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>>
>
> One piece of Mantik nonsense was debunked right here on the newsgroup.
>
> Mantik, who believes in Z-film alteration, had asserted that a piece
> of paper, seen on the infield of Dealey Plaza in the film, cannot be
> seen in any photos of Dealey Plaza.
>
> He inferred it was painted on to give the impression that the film
> shows continuous motion.
>
> Cecil Jones simply opened PICTURES OF THE PAIN, found an uncropped
> copy of Bothun 4, and it showed the piece of paper also.
>
> It's not like POTP is some kind of obscure source. It's not like only
> Gary Mack would have access to the photographic evidence to debunk
> Mantik -- and indeed Mantik should have run the idea by Mack, who the
> person for photo evidence. Else, he should have run it by Trask.
>
Why should a wacky conspiracy believer go running to the WC defenders
for help? He won't even listen to fellow conspiracy believers.
John McAdams
wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:19:31 -0500, Peter Fokes <pfo...@rogers.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm".
>>>>
>>>
>>>Huh?
>>>
>>>Is that 1835 hours?
>>>
>>>That's 6:35 p.m.
>>
>>Yes. Sergeant Boyajian's report.
>>
>><quote on>
>>
>>That report, provided to the ARRB and authenticated in writing by
>>Sergeant Boyajian himself ..... The time of arrival of the President's
>>casket is listed as "1835" hours which equates to 6:35 pm civilian
>>time.
>>
>><quote off>
>
>Here is the document (prepared Nov 26, 1963)
>
>http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1511163
>
>
>>
>>Inside the ARRB, Vol IV, p. 988
>>Doug Horne
>>
>>
OK, so what's the point?
An earlier arrival is poison for the alterationist point of view.
.John
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Maybe he would want to know that his pet theory is going to be blown
out of the water.
But for the little, extreme cult of which he is part, evidence doesn't
really matter.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
>
> http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black453a.ram
>
> On December 17, 2009, conspiracy advocate Dr. David Mantik made an
> appearance on Len Osanic's "Black Op Radio" (linked above).
>
> During this radio appearance, Dr. Mantik tells the audience that
> there's something fishy about the fact that President Kennedy's lead
> autopsy surgeon, Dr. James Humes, had told Dr. Pierre Finck that a set
> of X-rays had already been taken of JFK prior to Humes' phone call to
> Finck on 11/22/63, with Mantik saying this:
>
> "This means only one thing--and it's inescapable. The body must
> have been there BEFORE 8:00, or these X-rays could not have been taken
> so that Humes could make his call [to Dr. Finck] a few minutes after
> eight [o'clock]."
>
> Now, apparently Dr. Mantik has never bothered to read Dr. James Humes'
> Warren Commission testimony (or maybe Mantik has merely chosen to
> ignore it), which has Humes saying this to Arlen Specter and the
> Commission:
>
> DR. HUMES -- "The President's body was received at 25 minutes before
> 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You
> must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were
> made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy
> examination."
>
Other examinations? Explain exactly what he meant by that and enumerate
what those other examinations were.
Peter Fokes
Only Liftonites.
You have not read Doug Horne's book.
The President's body arrived in a plain shipping casket at 6:35 and an
initial inspection of the body was done from 6:37 to 6:49 pm. At 6: 50
p.m., Humes, assisted by Boswell, commenced "the performance of a
modified craniotomy. At 6:53. pm, the ornate casket arrives at the
front of Bethesda. It is empty.
Details of how the body is moved to the ornate casket are provided in
the book.
Folks should stop calling Horne a Liftonite. As I mentioned earlier,
he disagrees with Lifton on the timeline.
PF
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>
>>>> "Humes fudged and fibbed. So let's rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence
>instead. When did the President's plain shipping casket arrive? See
>Boyajian document: He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm"." <<<
>
>
>Which translates to 6:35 PM (EST).
Correct.
>Which means that that particular
>"shipping" casket (if a casket of that nature ever existed in the first
>place)
Well, there are witnesses.
>couldn't possibly have contained the body of President Kennedy,
>because JFK's body departed Andrews AFB at approx. 6:15 PM EST,
NOPE
When did Air Force One arrive?
5:58 pm EST
Want to watch it arrive live, and hear Harry Reasoner tell the time of
arrival?
Go to 8:13 on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW4Njl1E1nY
Cheers,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>On 19 Dec 2009 12:36:52 -0500, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>>>> "Humes fudged and fibbed. So let's rely on DOCUMENTARY evidence
>>instead. When did the President's plain shipping casket arrive? See
>>Boyajian document: He wrote that the time of arrival was "18:35 pm"." <<<
>>
>>
>>Which translates to 6:35 PM (EST).
>
>Correct.
>
>
>>Which means that that particular
>>"shipping" casket (if a casket of that nature ever existed in the first
>>place)
>
>Well, there are witnesses.
>
>>couldn't possibly have contained the body of President Kennedy,
>>because JFK's body departed Andrews AFB at approx. 6:15 PM EST,
>
>NOPE
>
>When did Air Force One arrive?
>
>5:58 pm EST
>
>Want to watch it arrive live, and hear Harry Reasoner tell the time of
>arrival?
>
>Go to 8:13 on this video:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW4Njl1E1nY
Forgot to add:
The President's body was NOT IN the ornate casket.
It was in a plain shipping casket when the plane ARRIVED.
Do yourself a favour. READ VOL IV of Horne's book.
PF
Jean Davison
"Peter Fokes" <pfo...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:v4vpi5166hc5rdhhr...@4ax.com...
Peter,
The Boyajian document doesn't mention a "plain shipping casket"
and uses the qualifier "approximately" before the time:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/html/md236_0005a.htm
In fact, Boyajian told Mr. Horne in 1997:
QUOTE:
>> One thing bothering me is that I can't recall seeing the casket arrive,
>> yet I state in the report that it arrived at 1835 hours. I think I split
>> the detail initially, sending seven men to meet the ambulance and taking
>> the remainder with me to set up security posts within the corridors.
>>>
UNQUOTE
IOW, as he later recalled it, Boyajian wasn't present when
the casket arrived at the morgue.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/html/md236_0004a.htm
Jean
Peter Fokes
<jjdavison...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, he uses approximately in another place too, and then gives an
exact time 5 minutes later! So we can assume that when Boyajian uses
the word approximately, he is using a time frame of a few
minutes....not 30 minutes or more!
Horne describes witnesses who say they saw the plain casket at the
same approximate time.
>
> In fact, Boyajian told Mr. Horne in 1997:
>
>QUOTE:
>>> One thing bothering me is that I can't recall seeing the casket arrive,
>>> yet I state in the report that it arrived at 1835 hours. I think I split
>>> the detail initially, sending seven men to meet the ambulance and taking
>>> the remainder with me to set up security posts within the corridors.
>>>>
>UNQUOTE
Well, maybe he just pulled a time out of a hat, eh?
Why did he write 1835 hours, Jean?
> IOW, as he later recalled it, Boyajian wasn't present when
>the casket arrived at the morgue.
>
>http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/html/md236_0004a.htm
As he later recalled it?
In his letter in 1997, he writes "it just isn't in the memory data
bank."
Now, LNs are always saying do NOT rely on witness testimony decades
after the event. Boyajian ADMITS he does not remember.
But we have his report, the report of the commanding officer at the
time, written 3 days later.
>
> Jean
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Anthony Marsh
Ok, an initial inspection. By whom? By The Three Stooges? Or by Burkley?
To remove a bullet? Or alter the body?
Peter Fokes
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The President's body arrived in a plain shipping casket at 6:35 and an
>> initial inspection of the body was done from 6:37 to 6:49 pm. At 6: 50
>
>Ok, an initial inspection. By whom? By The Three Stooges? Or by Burkley?
>To remove a bullet? Or alter the body?
I hope you took my earlier advice and asked someone who loves you to
give you Horne's book.
The detail are therein...
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
David Von Pein
Sure, AF1 arrived at Andrews at 5:58. But the body didn't leave in the
hearse/ambulance at exactly 5:58, Peter. It left at approx. 6:15, as I
said before. Perhaps as early as 6:10. I could cue up the TV footage
which (naturally) I have in "real time", but the body certainly didn't
LEAVE Andrews at the exact minute the plane touched down.
How on Earth can any "body alterationist" explain the SUPER-FAST
movements by any such alteration team of surgeons?
As for Horne's slightly different theory, he's got to get JFK's body
to Bethesda in about 20 minutes from Andrews (it would seem). Or does
Horne not believe that Kennedy left the AFB in the Navy ambulance at
approx. 6:15?
So many conspiracy theories. So silly all of them are.
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>
>Sure, AF1 arrived at Andrews at 5:58.
Sure was, and doors opened immediately.
> But the body didn't leave in the
>hearse/ambulance at exactly 5:58, Peter.
You know, David, you might be able to obfuscate the issue with some
folks, but not me. I expect a lot of smoke from you on this issue.
Probably a long post or two ... of course, you haven't read the book
though. You don't know Horne's argument.
So we could really entitle any of your threads on this issue, "What
David Von Pein thinks about what he thinks Horne's argument is even
though he hasn't read Horne's argument."
>It left at approx. 6:15, as I
>said before.
The ornate casket left then. Not the plain shipping casket.
35 minutes was plenty of time to get the shipping casket with JFK's
body to Bethesda either in a vehicle or by chopper.
> Perhaps as early as 6:10. I could cue up the TV footage
>which (naturally) I have in "real time", but the body certainly didn't
>LEAVE Andrews at the exact minute the plane touched down.
You mean the ornate casket.
>
>How on Earth can any "body alterationist" explain the SUPER-FAST
>movements by any such alteration team of surgeons?
What alteration? Do you think Bethesda had no doctors on hand?
LOL!
Super fast? JFK's body arrived according to Sgt. Boyajian's report
written on Nov 26, 1963, at approximately 18:35 (give or take a few
minutes). 30 minutes plenty of time to get plain shipping casket to
Bethesda. The body was available for Humes and Boswell to do a
preliminary inspection a few minutes later.
>
>As for Horne's slightly different theory, he's got to get JFK's body
>to Bethesda in about 20 minutes from Andrews (it would seem). Or does
>Horne not believe that Kennedy left the AFB in the Navy ambulance at
>approx. 6:15?
You are describing the movements of the ornate casket, not the casket
that JFK body was reported to be in at 6:35 pm.
I don't understand you. If you really are interested in what the
military analyst of ARRB, and specialist in the medical records, has
to say, READ HIS BOOK... or at least VOL IV.
You cannot make an intelligent counterargument unless you know what
Horne's argument IS.
>
>So many conspiracy theories. So silly all of them are.
Rhetoric.
Regards,
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Anthony Marsh
Which coffin was dumped in the ocean and was there a body in it? I bet
James Cameron could find it now with all the billions he's going to make
from his new movie.
Anthony Marsh
>
> Sure, AF1 arrived at Andrews at 5:58. But the body didn't leave in the
> hearse/ambulance at exactly 5:58, Peter. It left at approx. 6:15, as I
> said before. Perhaps as early as 6:10. I could cue up the TV footage
> which (naturally) I have in "real time", but the body certainly didn't
> LEAVE Andrews at the exact minute the plane touched down.
>
> How on Earth can any "body alterationist" explain the SUPER-FAST
> movements by any such alteration team of surgeons?
>
Well of course we know you are just guess whenever you say "How on Earth
can any . . ." But tell us exactly what alteration you think would be
required for Lifton's theory and exactly how long that would take. I see
no practicaly way to do all that is required.
Anthony Marsh
I think I was asking for YOUR opinion on what was entailed in the
initial inspection.
> Regards,
> Peter Fokes,
> Toronto