Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
JFK and RFK discuss timing mistake for air cover at Bay of Pigs (UPDATE)
25 views
Skip to first unread message
Anthony Marsh
Jul 13, 2012, 9:01:19 PM7/13/12
to
Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
President Kennedy's military advisor and he explains exactly
what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.
Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or
reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed
him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;
the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe
it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to
the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to
come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which
were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they
could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very
similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air
support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,
that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a
long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They are
flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,
air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,
Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for
them
[-75-]
to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will
be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief
there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.
air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want every
marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them
to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and
never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.
President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was
decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,
and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed to
give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,
instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried to
do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern
Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the
planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour
later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They
landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that air
support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military
operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t
use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,
they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing
wrong ? go
[-76-]
the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility
for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do
something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume
responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went way
beyond that.
_______________________________________
Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
President Kennedy's military advisor and he explains exactly
what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.
Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or
reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed
him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;
the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe
it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to
the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to
come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which
were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they
could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very
similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air
support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,
that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a
long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They are
flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,
air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,
Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for
them
[-75-]
to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will
be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief
there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.
air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want every
marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them
to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and
never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.
President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was
decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,
and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed to
give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,
instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried to
do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern
Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the
planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour
later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They
landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that air
support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military
operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t
use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,
they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing
wrong ? go
[-76-]
the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility
for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do
something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume
responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went way
beyond that.
_______________________________________
Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
Bill Clarke
Jul 14, 2012, 10:02:52 AM7/14/12
to
In article <5000b663$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
You'll have to do better than Brigadier General Godfry McHugh. Marsh. He was a
Camelot shiner of the highest level and this time problem is one of your
favorites to apologize for Kennedy. All in all not much weight here.
I assume you are still sucking on figure 26 is the reason you haven't responded
to it. Come on Marsh.
Bill Clarke
Camelot shiner of the highest level and this time problem is one of your
favorites to apologize for Kennedy. All in all not much weight here.
I assume you are still sucking on figure 26 is the reason you haven't responded
to it. Come on Marsh.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 14, 2012, 2:41:48 PM7/14/12
to
cable stated the wrong time. 6:30 to 7:30 local time. The exiles were told
that they would have air cover from 7:30 to 8:30. There are various books
that talk about the Navy pilots flying back to the Essex and standing
there crying watching the exile planes being shot down by Castro's planes
and they couldn't do anything about it.
As I said before CIA apologists will deny any facts to protect the CIA.
Bill Clarke
Jul 14, 2012, 7:25:25 PM7/14/12
to
In article <500195b4$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
These statements of McHugh doesn't concern you about his being out of the
loop on the BOP? "I did not know what was going on". "Wondering what on
earth was going on". It should.
>The fact remains that the CIA
>cable stated the wrong time. 6:30 to 7:30 local time. The exiles were told
>that they would have air cover from 7:30 to 8:30. There are various books
>that talk about the Navy pilots flying back to the Essex and standing
>there crying watching the exile planes being shot down by Castro's planes
>and they couldn't do anything about it.
This flap has long been known. Trouble is that even without the time flap
it would have been much too little and much to late. You don't play war
for an hour and then go home. How foolish.
If Kennedy wasn't prepared to support the operation he should never had
let it go forward. That was a big screw up that helped take us to the
missile crisis and that was a whooper screw up.
>As I said before CIA apologists will deny any facts to protect the CIA.
As if you Camelot shiners allow any facts that show Kennedy as anything
less than Saint John.
Bill Clarke
loop on the BOP? "I did not know what was going on". "Wondering what on
earth was going on". It should.
>The fact remains that the CIA
>cable stated the wrong time. 6:30 to 7:30 local time. The exiles were told
>that they would have air cover from 7:30 to 8:30. There are various books
>that talk about the Navy pilots flying back to the Essex and standing
>there crying watching the exile planes being shot down by Castro's planes
>and they couldn't do anything about it.
it would have been much too little and much to late. You don't play war
for an hour and then go home. How foolish.
If Kennedy wasn't prepared to support the operation he should never had
let it go forward. That was a big screw up that helped take us to the
missile crisis and that was a whooper screw up.
>As I said before CIA apologists will deny any facts to protect the CIA.
less than Saint John.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 15, 2012, 8:10:50 PM7/15/12
to
the meetings. You weren't.
>
>
>
>
>> The fact remains that the CIA
>> cable stated the wrong time. 6:30 to 7:30 local time. The exiles were told
>> that they would have air cover from 7:30 to 8:30. There are various books
>> that talk about the Navy pilots flying back to the Essex and standing
>> there crying watching the exile planes being shot down by Castro's planes
>> and they couldn't do anything about it.
>
> This flap has long been known. Trouble is that even without the time flap
> it would have been much too little and much to late. You don't play war
> for an hour and then go home. How foolish.
>
Bissel says in his oral history that he never got to the bottom of who
>> cable stated the wrong time. 6:30 to 7:30 local time. The exiles were told
>> that they would have air cover from 7:30 to 8:30. There are various books
>> that talk about the Navy pilots flying back to the Essex and standing
>> there crying watching the exile planes being shot down by Castro's planes
>> and they couldn't do anything about it.
>
> This flap has long been known. Trouble is that even without the time flap
> it would have been much too little and much to late. You don't play war
> for an hour and then go home. How foolish.
>
screwed it up. McHugh's oral history finally gives us the clue. A Marine
Colonel named Ned who dropped out of high school to join the Marines
(sound familiar) at the start of WWII and was put in charge of the Bay of
Pigs invasion at CIA headquarter and stayed on to join the CIA. Sound like
anyone we know? Lack of education.
> If Kennedy wasn't prepared to support the operation he should never had
> let it go forward. That was a big screw up that helped take us to the
> missile crisis and that was a whooper screw up.
>
in the fighting.
The CIA lied to him and thought that when push came to shove that he
would use US forces to save the invasion.
>
>> As I said before CIA apologists will deny any facts to protect the CIA.
>
> As if you Camelot shiners allow any facts that show Kennedy as anything
> less than Saint John.
>
desperate to cover up for the CIA's incompetence. Why?
> Bill Clarke
>
>
Bill Clarke
Jul 16, 2012, 1:30:59 AM7/16/12
to
In article <50030dff$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
I don't owe the CIA anything. But their job is a dirty one so when they
get dirty I understand that. With your sheltered existence you don't
understand. So I understand why you don't understand. Do you understand
figure 26?
So what about you Camelot shiners? Why?
Bill Clarke
get dirty I understand that. With your sheltered existence you don't
understand. So I understand why you don't understand. Do you understand
figure 26?
So what about you Camelot shiners? Why?
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 16, 2012, 10:18:11 AM7/16/12
to
as a necessary side effect because "their job is a dirty one"?
Does that also apply to their illegal drug testing program? Does that
also apply to assassinating our own scientists and intelligence
officers? Does that also apply to assassinating our own President
because they were too incompetent to assassinate Castro?
I understand your world view and it makes me throw up.
pjsp...@aol.com
Jul 16, 2012, 11:16:00 PM7/16/12
to
On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
> denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
>
> I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
> President Kennedy's military advisor and he explains exactly
> Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
> denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
>
> I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
Anthony Marsh
Jul 16, 2012, 11:40:31 PM7/16/12
to
Esterline is naming some other person he is not the one who made the
screw-up. Could it be on the Cuban Exiles website?
I doubt it's in the Kennedy Library documents. Got to cover-up for those
CIA idiots who screwed-up, you know.
Bissell could never get to the bottom of it.
Bill Clarke
Jul 17, 2012, 12:52:28 PM7/17/12
to
In article <4b5fee86-9666-43a1...@googlegroups.com>,
pjsp...@AOL.COM says...
>> I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was=20
>>=20
>> The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.=
>=20
>> Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or=20
>> reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed=20
>> him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;=
>=20
>> the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe=
>=20
>> it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to=
>=20
>> the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to=20
>> come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which=
>=20
>> were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they=
>=20
>> could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very=
>=20
>> similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air=
>=20
>> support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,=20
>> that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a=20
>> long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They ar=
>e=20
>> flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,=
>=20
>> air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,=
>=20
>> Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for=
>=20
>> them
>>=20
>> [-75-]
>>=20
>> to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will=
>=20
>> be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief=20
>> there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.=
>=20
>> air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want ever=
>y=20
>> marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them=
>=20
>> to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and=
>=20
>> never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.=20
>> President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was=20
>> decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,=
>=20
>> and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed t=
>o=20
>> give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,=20
>> instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried t=
>o=20
>> do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern=20
>> Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the=
>=20
>> planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour=
>=20
>> later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They=
>=20
>> landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that ai=
>r=20
>> support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military=20
>> operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t=
>=20
>> use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,=
>=20
>> they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing=20
>> wrong ? go
>>=20
>> [-76-]
>>=20
>> the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility=
>=20
>> for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do=
>=20
>> something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume=
>=20
>> responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went wa=
>y=20
>> beyond that.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________
>>=20
removes the fault from Kennedy (Marsh's hero) and puts it squarely on the CIA.
The CIA has much blame here but by the time of this time zone flap the operation
was doomed. This time zone mistake wouldn't have changed the outcome of the
operation. Really the operation was doomed from the start.
Richard Goodwin states that for weeks after the failed operation they walked
around wondering how they could have been so stupid as to let the operation go
forward. This is where the operation failed, even before it got off the ground.
Bill Clarke
pjsp...@AOL.COM says...
>
>On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have=20
>On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
>>=20
>> I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was=20
>> President Kennedy's military advisor and he explains exactly
>> what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
>>=20
>> what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
>>=20
>> The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.=
>=20
>> Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or=20
>> reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed=20
>> him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;=
>=20
>> the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe=
>=20
>> it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to=
>=20
>> the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to=20
>> come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which=
>=20
>> were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they=
>=20
>> could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very=
>=20
>> similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air=
>=20
>> support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,=20
>> that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a=20
>> long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They ar=
>e=20
>> flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,=
>=20
>> air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,=
>=20
>> Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for=
>=20
>> them
>>=20
>> [-75-]
>>=20
>> to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will=
>=20
>> be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief=20
>> there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.=
>=20
>> air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want ever=
>y=20
>> marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them=
>=20
>> to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and=
>=20
>> never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.=20
>> President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was=20
>> decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,=
>=20
>> and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed t=
>o=20
>> give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,=20
>> instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried t=
>o=20
>> do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern=20
>> Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the=
>=20
>> planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour=
>=20
>> later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They=
>=20
>> landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that ai=
>r=20
>> support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military=20
>> operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t=
>=20
>> use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,=
>=20
>> they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing=20
>> wrong ? go
>>=20
>> [-76-]
>>=20
>> the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility=
>=20
>> for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do=
>=20
>> something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume=
>=20
>> responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went wa=
>y=20
>> beyond that.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________
>>=20
>> Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
>
>I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historical
>interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
>only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
>remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
>look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
>
Marsh likes to use this single mistake as the reason the operation failed. This
>
>I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historical
>interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
>only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
>remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
>look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
>
removes the fault from Kennedy (Marsh's hero) and puts it squarely on the CIA.
The CIA has much blame here but by the time of this time zone flap the operation
was doomed. This time zone mistake wouldn't have changed the outcome of the
operation. Really the operation was doomed from the start.
Richard Goodwin states that for weeks after the failed operation they walked
around wondering how they could have been so stupid as to let the operation go
forward. This is where the operation failed, even before it got off the ground.
Bill Clarke
pjsp...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2012, 12:54:29 PM7/17/12
to
On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:16:00 PM UTC-7, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
> >
> > I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
> > President Kennedy&#39;s military advisor and he explains exactly
> > what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
> >
> >
> > The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.
> > Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or
> > reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed
> > him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;
> > the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe
> > it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to
> > the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to
> > come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which
> > were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they
> > could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very
> > similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air
> > support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,
> > that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a
> > long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They are
> > flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,
> > air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,
> > Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for
> > them
> >
> > [-75-]
> >
> > to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will
> > be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief
> > there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.
> > air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want every
> > marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them
> > to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and
> > never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.
> > President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was
> > decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,
> > and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed to
> > give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,
> > instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried to
> > do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern
> > Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the
> > planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour
> > later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They
> > landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that air
> > support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military
> > operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t
> > use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,
> > they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing
> > wrong ? go
> >
> > [-76-]
> >
> > the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility
> > for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do
> > something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume
> > responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went way
> > beyond that.
> >
> > _______________________________________
> >
> > Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
>
> I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historical
> interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
> only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
> remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
> look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
I found the interview:
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/esterlineinterv.pdf
I glanced through it and couldn't find what I thought was said, but found something along the same lines. On page 80 of the PDF, the "hour" is mentioned, and Esterline counters that the hour was only part of the problem, and that the jets flew too high to be of any help even if they were still in the air when the brigade's planes arrived.
pjsp...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2012, 12:55:31 PM7/17/12
to
On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:40:31 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 7/16/2012 11:16 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> > On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 7/16/2012 11:16 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> >> Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
> >> denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
> >>
> >> I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
> >> President Kennedy&#39;s military advisor and he explains exactly
> >> what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
> >>
> >>
> >> The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.
> >> Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or
> >> reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed
> >> him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;
> >> the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe
> >> it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to
> >> the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to
> >> come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which
> >> were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they
> >> could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very
> >> similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air
> >> support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,
> >> that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a
> >> long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They are
> >> flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,
> >> air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,
> >> Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for
> >> them
> >>
> >> [-75-]
> >>
> >> to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will
> >>
> >> be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief
> >> there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.
> >> air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want every
> >> marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them
> >> to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and
> >> never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.
> >> President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was
> >> decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,
> >> and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed to
> >> give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,
> >> instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried to
> >> do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern
> >> Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the
> >> planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour
> >> later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They
> >> landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that air
> >> support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military
> >> operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t
> >> use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,
> >> they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing
> >> wrong ? go
> >>
> >> [-76-]
> >>
> >> the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility
> >> [-76-]
> >>
> >> for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do
> >> something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume
> >> responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went way
> >> beyond that.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________
> >>
> >> Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
> >> _______________________________________
> >>
> >
> > I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historical
> > interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
> > only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
> > remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
> > look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
> >
>
> Redacted? Ya think? I don't know if you understand the logic, but is
> Esterline is naming some other person he is not the one who made the
> screw-up. Could it be on the Cuban Exiles website?
> I doubt it's in the Kennedy Library documents. Got to cover-up for those
> screw-up. Could it be on the Cuban Exiles website?
> CIA idiots who screwed-up, you know.
> Bissell could never get to the bottom of it.
I found the interview, and the name mentioned was Burke, which I now realize was a reference to Admiral Burke, who retired shortly after the BOP.
> Bissell could never get to the bottom of it.
So I was wrong. The name of the person responsible is not offered in the interview, and the screw-up is treated as a mystery--a screw-up in communication between the Navy and CIA where no one person is responsible
Anthony Marsh
Jul 17, 2012, 4:41:48 PM7/17/12
to
invasion. He is the one who RECEIVED the order. Not the one who ordered
it. And his name was Arleigh, not Ned.
> So I was wrong. The name of the person responsible is not offered in the interview, and the screw-up is treated as a mystery--a screw-up in communication between the Navy and CIA where no one person is responsible
>
dissect the back wound.
Anthony Marsh
Jul 17, 2012, 4:42:08 PM7/17/12
to
Castro's T-33s came out to attack the B-26s they would put their jets in
the way. It's called PASSIVE cover.
Anthony Marsh
Jul 17, 2012, 4:42:33 PM7/17/12
to
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
> The CIA has much blame here but by the time of this time zone flap the operation
> was doomed. This time zone mistake wouldn't have changed the outcome of the
> operation. Really the operation was doomed from the start.
>
understand ZULU time.
Bill Clarke
Jul 17, 2012, 8:37:38 PM7/17/12
to
In article <00a7dc79-76c4-443d...@googlegroups.com>,
pjsp...@AOL.COM says...
>=20
>> > I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was=
>=20
>> >=20
>> > The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to ha=
>ppen.=20
>> > Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or=
>=20
>> > reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I follow=
>ed=20
>> > him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming =
>in;=20
>> > the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t beli=
>eve=20
>> > it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explaine=
>d to=20
>> > the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going t=
>o=20
>> > come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, w=
>hich=20
>> > were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But t=
>hey=20
>> > could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, v=
>ery=20
>> > similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorize=
>d air=20
>> > support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. Presiden=
>t,=20
>> > that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out=
> a=20
>> > long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. Th=
>ey are=20
>> > flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at =
>all,=20
>> > air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?=
>But,=20
>> > Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way =
>for=20
>> > them
>> >=20
>> > [-75-]
>> >=20
>> > to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships =
>will=20
>> > be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chi=
>ef=20
>> > there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U=
>.S.=20
>> > air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want=
> every=20
>> > marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want =
>them=20
>> > to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraf=
>t and=20
>> > never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.=
>=20
>> > President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was=
>=20
>> > decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cu=
>bans,=20
>> > and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agr=
>eed to=20
>> > give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,=
>=20
>> > instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tr=
>ied to=20
>> > do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Easter=
>n=20
>> > Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when =
>the=20
>> > planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one =
>hour=20
>> > later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. T=
>hey=20
>> > landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get th=
>at air=20
>> > support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military=20
>> > operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They =
>don?t=20
>> > use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefo=
>re,=20
>> > they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothin=
>g=20
>> > wrong ? go
>> >=20
>> > [-76-]
>> >=20
>> > the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsib=
>ility=20
>> > for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don=
>?t do=20
>> > something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to a=
>ssume=20
>> > responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he we=
>nt way=20
>> > beyond that.
>> >=20
>> > _______________________________________
>> >=20
>> I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historica=
>omething along the same lines. On page 80 of the PDF, the "hour" is mention=
>ed, and Esterline counters that the hour was only part of the problem, and =
>that the jets flew too high to be of any help even if they were still in th=
Bill Clarke
pjsp...@AOL.COM says...
>
>On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:16:00 PM UTC-7, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> > Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have=
>On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:16:00 PM UTC-7, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
>> On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>=20
>> > denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
>> >=20
>> > I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was=
>=20
>> > President Kennedy&#39;s military advisor and he explains exactly
>> > what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
>> >=20
>> > what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
>> >=20
>> > The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to ha=
>ppen.=20
>> > Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or=
>=20
>> > reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I follow=
>ed=20
>> > him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming =
>in;=20
>> > the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t beli=
>eve=20
>> > it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explaine=
>d to=20
>> > the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going t=
>o=20
>> > come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, w=
>hich=20
>> > were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But t=
>hey=20
>> > could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, v=
>ery=20
>> > similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorize=
>d air=20
>> > support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. Presiden=
>t,=20
>> > that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out=
> a=20
>> > long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. Th=
>ey are=20
>> > flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at =
>all,=20
>> > air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?=
>But,=20
>> > Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way =
>for=20
>> > them
>> >=20
>> > [-75-]
>> >=20
>> > to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships =
>will=20
>> > be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chi=
>ef=20
>> > there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U=
>.S.=20
>> > air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want=
> every=20
>> > marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want =
>them=20
>> > to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraf=
>t and=20
>> > never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.=
>=20
>> > President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was=
>=20
>> > decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cu=
>bans,=20
>> > and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agr=
>eed to=20
>> > give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,=
>=20
>> > instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tr=
>ied to=20
>> > do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Easter=
>n=20
>> > Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when =
>the=20
>> > planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one =
>hour=20
>> > later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. T=
>hey=20
>> > landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get th=
>at air=20
>> > support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military=20
>> > operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They =
>don?t=20
>> > use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefo=
>re,=20
>> > they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothin=
>g=20
>> > wrong ? go
>> >=20
>> > [-76-]
>> >=20
>> > the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsib=
>ility=20
>> > for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don=
>?t do=20
>> > something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to a=
>ssume=20
>> > responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he we=
>nt way=20
>> > beyond that.
>> >=20
>> > _______________________________________
>> >=20
>> > Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
>>=20
>> I'm kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historica=
>l
>> interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
>> only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
>> remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you shoul=
>> interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
>> only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can't
>d
>> look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
>
>I found the interview:
>
>www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/esterlineinterv.pdf
>
>I glanced through it and couldn't find what I thought was said, but found s=
>> look around for the Esterline interview. It's quite revealing.
>
>I found the interview:
>
>www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/esterlineinterv.pdf
>
>omething along the same lines. On page 80 of the PDF, the "hour" is mention=
>ed, and Esterline counters that the hour was only part of the problem, and =
>that the jets flew too high to be of any help even if they were still in th=
>e air when the brigade's planes arrived.
>
It is much to do about a meaningless problem. But Marsh likes it.
>
Bill Clarke
Bill Clarke
Jul 17, 2012, 8:38:09 PM7/17/12
to
In article <5005b309$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
Read my lips. By that time it didn't make a damn. It would have helped a
bit but it wouldn't have turned the outcome of the operation.
Bill Clarke
bit but it wouldn't have turned the outcome of the operation.
Bill Clarke
pjsp...@aol.com
Jul 17, 2012, 8:43:32 PM7/17/12
to
On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:42:08 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 7/17/2012 12:54 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> > On Monday, July 16, 2012 8:16:00 PM UTC-7, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> On 7/17/2012 12:54 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:
> >> On Friday, July 13, 2012 6:01:19 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >> &gt; Update. For many years the CIA apologists and WC defenders here have
> >> &gt; denied that it was the CIA who screwed up.
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; I found the oral history of Brigadier General Godfry McHugh who was
> >> &gt; President Kennedy&amp;#39;s military advisor and he explains exactly
> >> &gt; what happened at the Bay of Pigs:
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; The President is at a dinner party when he is told it is going to happen.
> >> &gt; Tomorrow they are going to land. He stopped his dinner, his party or
> >> &gt; reception or whatever it was, and went to the cabinet room: I followed
> >> &gt; him. I did not know what was going on. The Joint Chiefs were coming in;
> >> &gt; the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] was coming in. I couldn?t believe
> >> &gt; it. Wondering what on earth was going on. I waited and they explained to
> >> &gt; the President that they were going to land. Three ships were going to
> >> &gt; come. Two B-52s were going to fly and hit the T-33s on the ground, which
> >> &gt; were little jets, fighter jets. Very bad. Little trainer jets. But they
> >> &gt; could have demolished the B-25s or B-26s ? the same type of plane, very
> >> &gt; similar to type of plane. The President said, ?But I never authorized air
> >> &gt; support or any support for this operation.? They said, ?Mr. President,
> >> &gt; that is not your airplanes. Those are the airplanes you?ve given out a
> >> &gt; long time ago to some place. They had those airplanes over there. They are
> >> &gt; flown by Cubans, but they need to have, if they are going to win at all,
> >> &gt; air support from the U.S.? The President said, ?I will not do it.? ?But,
> >> &gt; Mr. President, you are sending them to their death. There is no way for
> >> &gt; them
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; [-75-]
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; to win. No way for them to even get the ships over there. The ships will
> >> &gt; be sunk before?.? With that fabulous strong statement from every chief
> >> &gt; there, and the CIA and all, he said, ?All right. You can give them U.S.
> >> &gt; air support from the carriers that you have around there. But I want every
> >> &gt; marking of every plane taken off before they leave the deck. I want them
> >> &gt; to fly only one hour. One hour solely, and come back to that aircraft and
> >> &gt; never give another flight to supporting this again.? They said, ?Mr.
> >> &gt; President, if you give them that support maybe it will help.? It was
> >> &gt; decided to do so. Every man there wired back his service, and the Cubans,
> >> &gt; and all of that, I don?t know if the Cubans?. ?The President has agreed to
> >> &gt; give U.S. support between?? The CIA is the only one that wired back,
> >> &gt; instead of Z time, they wired back in normal time. You know, they tried to
> >> &gt; do, the mountain time [Mountain Standard Time], eastern time [Eastern
> >> &gt; Standard Time]?. They got confused and gave the wrong hour. So when the
> >> &gt; planes took off, the Cubans thought they were going to take off one hour
> >> &gt; later. The Navy planes flew all over the place, nothing was there. They
> >> &gt; landed back, as ordered, without supporting them. They didn?t get that air
> >> &gt; support. In my estimation, the CIA should never get into military
> >> &gt; operation because they don?t know what they are talking about. They don?t
> >> &gt; use the same expressions we do, the same time periods we do. Therefore,
> >> &gt; they messed it up. But I saw the President then ? he had done nothing
> >> &gt; wrong ? go
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; [-76-]
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; the next few days and say, ?I am responsible. I accept the responsibility
> >> &gt; for this whole decision and operation.? It was admirable. If you don?t do
> >> &gt; something and it turns out to be a fiasco, and, you are willing to assume
> >> &gt; responsibility?. Presidents have to assume responsibility, but he went way
> >> &gt; beyond that.
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; _______________________________________
> >> &gt;
> >> &gt; Suck on that, Ned Dolan!
> >>
> >> I&#39;m kinda surprised this is even being debated, Tony. A CIA historical
> >> interview of Jake Esterline was released some time ago in which he not
> >> only acknowledges it was a CIA screw-up, but names the name. (I can&#39;t
> >> remember the name, so it may have been redacted.) In any event, you should
> >> look around for the Esterline interview. It&#39;s quite revealing.
> >
> > I found the interview:
> >
> > www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/esterlineinterv.pdf
> >
> > I glanced through it and couldn't find what I thought was said, but found something along the same lines. On page 80 of the PDF, the "hour" is mentioned, and Esterline counters that the hour was only part of the problem, and that the jets flew too high to be of any help even if they were still in the air when the brigade's planes arrived.
> >
>
> They were so high in the air because the were looking for the B-26s. If
> Castro's T-33s came out to attack the B-26s they would put their jets in
> They were so high in the air because the were looking for the B-26s. If
> the way. It's called PASSIVE cover.
Read the interview. Esterline had a different impression.
Bill Clarke
Jul 17, 2012, 11:39:50 PM7/17/12
to
In article <5005afbe$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
They called him, "40 Knots Burke". Forty Knots is the one that told
Kennedy, "Hell Mr. President, we are involved" after Kennedy told Burke he
didn't want to be involved. This was as Burke was begging for air
support.
Bill Clarke
Kennedy, "Hell Mr. President, we are involved" after Kennedy told Burke he
didn't want to be involved. This was as Burke was begging for air
support.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 18, 2012, 11:05:16 AM7/18/12
to
Burke for begging for air support. That was in his area of expertise.
But JFK was Commander in Chief and made the rules very clear at the
onset. If Nixon had won the election you can be sure that the Bay of
Pigs would have been successful because he would have used US forces and
he did not shy away from WWIII. JFK was afraid of triggering WWIII.
Burke was not. Curtis LeMay was not. They wanted WWIII and knew we would
win. After 100 million dead Americans.
> Bill Clarke
>
Anthony Marsh
Jul 18, 2012, 11:07:04 AM7/18/12
to
Bill Clarke
Jul 18, 2012, 5:00:56 PM7/18/12
to
In article <5006957d$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
I just threw in a bit on the name. Didn't expect you to reply to anything
That was in his area of expertise.
>But JFK was Commander in Chief and made the rules very clear at the
>onset. If Nixon had won the election you can be sure that the Bay of
>Pigs would have been successful because he would have used US forces and
>he did not shy away from WWIII. JFK was afraid of triggering WWIII.
>Burke was not. Curtis LeMay was not. They wanted WWIII and knew we would
>win. After 100 million dead Americans.
This is some crap you have made up yourself. It doesn't wash.
Bill Clarke
That was in his area of expertise.
>But JFK was Commander in Chief and made the rules very clear at the
>onset. If Nixon had won the election you can be sure that the Bay of
>Pigs would have been successful because he would have used US forces and
>he did not shy away from WWIII. JFK was afraid of triggering WWIII.
>Burke was not. Curtis LeMay was not. They wanted WWIII and knew we would
>win. After 100 million dead Americans.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 19, 2012, 11:35:48 AM7/19/12
to
Bill Clarke
Jul 19, 2012, 2:59:12 PM7/19/12
to
In article <5007a75b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
I too will defend Burke. Why you think a trained warrior must always be a
war monger is beyond me.
Bill Clarke
war monger is beyond me.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Jul 20, 2012, 7:44:23 AM7/20/12
to
> Bill Clarke
>
0 new messages