The JFK Case: What Informants Are Still Out There? (article)
davidemerling
stuff up. Enjoy!
* * * * *
The JFK Case: What Informants Are Still Out There?
by Bill Simpich
There are many questions about the JFK assassination that can easily
be answered - but only by eyewitnesses who aren’t going to be alive
for much longer.
Do the math: It was 46 years ago this week. It’s time for these
eyewitnesses to tell their stories - or for the rest of us to at least
know who to ask.
Thanks to the JFK Act of 1992 passed in the wake of Oliver Stone’s
well-known movie, many of the assassination documents were released in
the last few years - but the rest are being held back to 2017 or even
later. These documents are filled with blacked-out portions that hide
the names of the informants and sources of the spy agencies.
Some of these names we can figure out. I’ll name a couple of them
here.
Others have gone public.
All these names need to be public, before more of these sources pass
away from old age.
Here’s why it’s important. Whether or not Oswald was a spy, he was in
the middle of some intriguing operations centered in New York City and
Mexico City during the months before Kennedy was shot.
The purpose of these operations was not merely to spy on the pro-
Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which was the main antiwar
network of the era and similar to United for Peace and Justice or
ANSWER. Rather, the goal was to isolate Castro’s government in the
eyes of the world and to pave the way for a second invasion of Cuba,
much like George Bush’s second invasion of Iraq.
These operations appear to have been used by someone - whether it was
Oswald or someone else - as “protective cover” behind which they could
engineer the assassination of JFK, causing the intelligence
bureaucracies to instinctively cover up and protect their jobs and
pensions, even at the cost of concealing known evidence about Oswald.
Who was using who?
Individual claims for privacy are important. But in this case, justice
demands that all available information be brought forward now.
Embedded in this history are the strategies that push the American
people into war - over and over again.
It’s Time for Fair Play for the FPCC
In November, 1962, one month after the Cuban missile crisis, the New
York papers were filled with headlines about a Cuban plot to bomb
Bloomingdale’s, other midtown shopping establishments, and military
installations throughout the metropolitan area.
Arrested were members of the UN Cuban mission and the Casa Cuba Club,
an organization of pro-Castro Cuban exiles allied with the politically
active Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC) headquartered in New York.
This supposed 9/11-style plot was denounced by Attorney General Robert
Kennedy and was yet another major black eye for Cuba and its allies.
Whether this plot was real or faked, the evidence was never tested in
court - the supposed saboteurs were returned to Cuba in April 1963 in
exchange for three CIA officials that Cuba refused to return in the
recently-completed prisoner exchange from the failed Bay of Pigs
invasion.
When Lee Harvey Oswald wrote his first letter to the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee HQ in New York in April 1963, he asked for "forty or
fifty" free copies of a 40 page pamphlet.
In a remarkable turn of events many years later, the author of the
pamphlets turned out to be holding a receipt for 45 of these pamphlets
from the CIA Acquisitions Division. These pamphlets were mailed to
Oswald by FPCC worker Victor Thomas Vicente. Vicente was a key
informant for both the CIA and the FBI’s New York branch.
After mailing the pamphlets, Vicente provided Oswald’s letter to the
FBI New York office as part of a “black bag job”, where he let FBI
agents into the FPCC office so they could photograph the documents.
During the summer of 1963, the CIA sent Victor Vicente to Mexico City,
then known as the “spy capital of the world”, and then to Havana to
meet directly with Castro and Che Guevara and to film his travels for
review upon his return to New York.
On September 16, 1963, John Tilton of the CIA’s maritime operations
branch sent a memo to the FBI asking for help in an operation designed
to make the Fair Play for Cuba Committee look bad. He asked the FBI to
provide FPCC stationery and an FPCC mailing list. Again, Victor
Vicente took care of that request during the next month, and included
in his package correspondence from Oswald.
Another request made by Tilton was to plant “deceptive information” to
embarrass the FPCC in areas where it had support. This may have been
the reason for Oswald’s trip to Mexico, whether he knew it or not.
Oswald got in line to get a Mexican visa the day after Tilton’s
letter. Standing right in front of Oswald in line was William Gaudet,
an editor of Latin American Reports, who worked with both the CIA and
the FBI.
It’s time to look at the impersonation of Oswald
In late September, Oswald visited the Cuban and Soviet embassies in
Mexico City for the purpose of getting visas to visit both countries.
As Oswald was a former defector to the Soviet Union and was planning
on traveling with his Russian-born wife, CIA officials such as Cuba
chief David Phillips admitted "we covered this man all the time."
After Oswald’s capture on November 22, the HQ Mexico desk chief John
Whitten wrote that among his fellow employees at Langley, “the effect
was electric”. Two well-informed staffers had a footrace down the
corridor for Oswald’s file.
Many very strange events occurred during Oswald’s visit. One is that
although there was constant CIA photographic surveillance of those two
embassies, the public has never seen a good picture of Oswald.
Although the CIA’s Mexico City chief of station Win Scott had been
asking since October for a good photo of Oswald to compare against the
photos they believed they had taken of Oswald, headquarters had never
supplied one.
Even though Scott was supposedly warned by his assistant Anne
Goodpasture that she "felt that it should not be sent out" as he might
have the wrong picture of Oswald, he sent to DC immediately after the
assassination a picture of a man that he wrongly claimed was “a
certain person who is known to you” at the Soviet embassy.
After the dust settled, Scott came up with good pictures of Oswald
standing outside the Cuban embassy, and two CIA men backed this story.
These photos were removed from Scott’s safe after his 1971 death by
counterintelligence chief James Angleton, and have never seen the
light of day.
Meanwhile, Scott sent a tape of Oswald calling the Cuban consulate on
October 1 along with the picture. The FBI reported in writing that not
only was the photo the wrong one, but the tape was not Oswald’s voice!
This tape is the strongest evidence that Oswald was actually
impersonated in Mexico City. That tape, like Scott’s photos of Oswald,
was also in the safe and has also been
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=128&relPageId=33
in the dark recesses of the government’s archives. We still don’t even
know who at the FBI listened to the tape.
The CIA said nothing about Oswald’s visits to the Cuban embassy in
their lengthy memos about Oswald’s activities in Mexico City. Richard
Helms explained later that it was to “protect sources”. These sources
may exist to this day, and may even shed light on the impersonation of
Oswald.
J. Edgar Hoover called LBJ and reported the impersonation of Oswald to
him. LBJ was aware that the CIA was trying to preserve "freedom of
movement" to make the argument that Oswald’s ties to Cuba were the
basis to declare war. Once Oswald was assassinated by Ruby on November
24, LBJ and the FBI both seized the opportunity to proclaim that
Oswald acted alone, and proceeded to conduct a cursory investigation -
rather than open up a discussion of Oswald’s possible sponsors that
led to danger no matter where the evidence might go.
When the House Committee on Assassinations tried to interview the
photographer (known variously as LIONION-1, LIFEUD-22, and LILILLY-1)
of the Cuban embassy in the late 70s, the CIA interviewer initially
assured them "no problem", set up an elaborate process to protect his
identity, and then waited them out until the committee was about to
disband at the end of 1978.
In effect, the CIA told the committee - "oh, we told you months ago,
he’s in Madrid, and it would be a lot of work to make it happen".
In fact, Alberto Rodriguez Gallego had been in Madrid since 1972, with
the CIA complaining that he might be a "double agent".
To my knowledge, nobody’s ever conducted a full-on interview of
Alberto Rodriguez Gallego.
Why did the CIA distrust their own operatives immediately after
Oswald’s visit to Mexico?
Gallego has been questioned before, as had most of the CIA’s
surveillance operatives who were in contact with Oswald - but this
questioning took place before JFK’s assassination - it was a lie
detector test.
In studying the recently released records, I found previously
unreported lie detector tests conducted not just on Gallego, but on
the two CIA agents that ran the much bigger intelligence operation on
the Soviet embassy; technical support on the embassy watch (LIMUST)
the mobile surveillance team that followed Oswald (LIEMBRACE); most of
the members of the airport surveillance operation of Cuban travelers
(LIFIRE) and the intelligence operation at the university (LIMOTOR).
They even polygraphed the political operative that supported people
stuck in the city for weeks trying to get a Cuban visa (AMSUPER-1) and
the political operatives in the city of Monterrey where Oswald’s bus
stopped overnight (LIVALVE-1 and others).
All of these lie detector tests were conducted in the two weeks
immediately after Oswald’s departure. Except for possibly the Mexican
students - a story that is a story in itself - I see no indication
that polygraphs were scheduled for any of these operatives, nor that
they had been polygraphed for years before Oswald’s visit. What
happened during Oswald’s visit to trigger all this distrust among the
CIA’s most trusted operatives?
There is one final new story I need to tell about the Mexican CIA
station - this one goes back to the first months of 1963 and
illustrates the nasty nature of CIA business.
The Guatemalan Coup of March 1963
During 1963, on orders from headquarters, station chief Win Scott
conducted a self-described harassment campaign against the former
President of Guatelmala, Juan Jose Arevalo. This harassment included
mailing “poisoned” candy to Arevalo’s family (which included five
children) as he campaigned for a second chance to serve as president
while in exile in Mexico City.
These documents also reveal that the CIA staged a scenario designed to
make Arevalo believe that the Cubans at the embassy were planning to
bomb him. The Cuban government was supporting the Guatemalan
dissidents, and this was an effort to split Arevalo from other
dissidents.
There was even a faked “montage” photo of Arevalo standing with a
Soviet military attache that was released to the Guatemalan newspapers
during this shortened campaign, which ended abruptly with a military
coup before the election.
This military coup plunged Guatemala deeper into more than thirty
years of terrible civil war that claimed 200,000 lives.
After the Guatemalan coup, Arevalo finally left Mexico for good the
day after the Kennedy assassination, with the CIA monitoring his
movements very closely during those final two months.
Juan Jose Arevalo was known as the FDR of Guatemala. His supporters,
known throughout the Americas as “Arevalistas”, praised him for
bringing democracy, free speech, and social services to his part of
the world between 1944 and 1951 as Guatemala’s first President. In
exile in Mexico City, Arevalo was returning to the national stage by
running for President a second time until a military coup ended his
chances in March 1963.
Why was his family receiving death threats over the telephone and
“poisoned” candy in the mail? Why were Cubans supposedly planning to
bomb him? Why were the newspapers trying to ruin his campaign by
running phony pictures with him alongside a Soviet general?
The source of these provocations was the Mexico City CIA station. They
were trying to consolidate their successful 1954 coup in Guatemala by
ensuring that Arevalo would never become president of Guatemala again.
Arevalo had written “The Shark and the Sardines”, an indictment of US
government policy in Latin America. Unknown to him, his translator
June Cobb was not only active with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
but was also a CIA asset.
David Phillips, the CIA’s chief of covert actions during this era, had
won a Distinguished Service Medal, one of his agency’s highest awards,
for his work in overthrowing the Guatemala government. Throughout the
early sixties, he was active in operations designed to undermine the
FPCC. In early October, 1963, Phillips was transferred to become chief
of Cuban operations and doubtlessly played a role in the decision to
engage in mass polygraphs.
The montage photo is eerily reminiscent of a famous March 1963 photo
of an armed Lee Harvey Oswald holding together in his fist the
newspapers of the Socialist Workers Party and the Communist Party. One
of the only projects that those two parties were ever able to work
together was in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which Oswald joined
the next month. In one way, whether this photo is real or faked is
immaterial. The photo was created to ensure that Oswald was seen as a
person who could bring Communist forces together around Cuba with the
power of the gun. That remains Oswald’s image to this very day.
If those of us in the United States are serious about understanding
our history in places like Guatemala and in Cuba, we will take action
in the next few years to ensure that all of the documents about this
era are fully released, including the names of the sources and
informants. If that happens, we will learn a lot more about how "dirty
tricks" affected US history as well as those in other lands.
Write the US Congress and call on them to enforce the JFK Act by
releasing all the documents and all the government’s sources of
information. When the American people are willing to take an
unblinking look at ourselves and our institutions, the Kennedy
assassination will no longer be a mystery.
-Bill Simpich is a civil rights attorney and an antiwar activist in
the San Francisco Bay Area. He can be reached at bsimpich [at]
gmail.com
Endnotes:
http://www.newswithviews.com/news_worthy/news_worthy18.htm “a Cuban
plot to bomb Bloomingdale’s…”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=48642
“…other midtown shopping establishments”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=140556&relPageId=90
“Arrested...”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=140556&relPageId=89
“allied with the pro-Castro Fair Play for Cuba Committee”
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_secretgov_5h.htm
“the supposed saboteurs were returned to Cuba in April 1963 in
exchange for 3 CIA officials”
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0266a.htm
“forty or fifty free copies of a 40 page pamphlet”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/textsearch/advancedResults.do?queryStr=CIA%20AND%20Lamont&systemDocType=BOOK&docId=1265
“the author of those pamphlets was holding a receipt for 45 of these
pamphlets from the CIA Acquisitions Division.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/simpich07242009.html Victor Vicente was a
“key informant” for both the CIA and the FBI
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=85891&relPageId=2
“he let FBI agents into the FPCC office so they could photograph the
documents”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=396499
“the CIA sent Vicente to Havana…to meet with Castro and Che Guevara”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=377132
"an operation designed to make the FPCC look bad"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=135033&relPageId=2
"Victor Vicente took care of that request during the next month"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=33130&relPageId=79
“Standing right in front of Oswald in line was William Gaudet”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=488851
“Cuba chief David Phillips admitted, ‘We covered this man all the
time.’”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=27349&relPageId=7
“among his fellow employees at Langley, the effect was electric”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=7271&relPageId=12
"Win Scott had been asking since October for a good photo of Oswald"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=2060&relPageId=3
“Goodpasture said she felt that it should not be sent out”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=488851
“a picture of a man that he wrongly claimed”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=112007&relPageId=31
“Scott came up with good pictures of Oswald”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=112007&relPageId=34
“two CIA men backed this story”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=799&relPageId=11
"the tape was not Oswald’s voice"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=128&relPageId=33
“that tape…has also been buried”
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0030a.htm
“Hoover…reported the impersonation of Oswald”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=429764
“LIONION-1”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43461&relPageId=17
“LIFEUD-22”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=234532
“(the photographer of the) Cuban embassy”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=440480
"set up an elaborate process to protect his identity"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=422559
“he’s in Madrid”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=439480.
"Alberto Rodriguez Gallego”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=34173&relPageId=6
"1972"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=42990&relPageId=2(Gallego)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4491&relPageId=7
(two CIA agents) http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43001&relPageId=2
(LIMUST) http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=30601&relPageId=2(LIEMBRACE)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=43003&relPageId=2(LIFIRE)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=42995&relPageId=2(LIMOTOR)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=42970&relPageId=2(AMSUPER-1)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=51327&relPageId=2(LIVALVE-1
and others)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=31652&relPageId=7
“poisoned candy to Arevalo’s family"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=510952
“five children”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4493&relPageId=3
"bomb"
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=31652&relPageId=7
“a faked ‘montage’ photo of Arevalo standing with a Soviet military
attaché”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/march99/clinton11.htm
“200,000 lives”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=797258
“the day after the Kennedy assassination”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=112064&relPageId=2
“monitoring his movements”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=99894&relPageId=49
“final two months”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=5721&relPageId=5
“ensuring that Arevalo would never become president”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=19809&relPageId=3
“(June Cobb) was also a CIA asset”
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=15518&relPageId=3
“for his work in overthrowing the Guatemalan government”
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKoswaldrifle.jpg “an armed Lee
Harvey Oswald holding together in his fist the newspapers of the
Socialist Workers Party and the Communist Party”
http://www.petitiononline.com/JFKACT/petition.html “Write Congress and
call on them to enforce the JFK Act”
WhiskyJoe
The curious thing about the CTers is that,
assuming the their was a conspiracy to fill
JFK and frame Oswald, is the minimal
investigation of the obvious suspects.
The failure to follow up the obvious leads.
How did they get Oswald in position where
he could shoot and/or be the patsy?
They say that Ruth Paine was the CIA agent
who directed Oswald to the job at the TSBD.
But if this is so:
* How did Ruth Paine arrange for Linnie
Mae Randle to move with her husband within
a few blocks of Ruth Paine?
* How did Ruth Paine arrange for Wesley
Buell Frazier to move over hundred miles
after his High School graduation to live
with his sister in Irving?
* How did Ruth Paine arrange for Wesley
Buell Frazier to work at the TSBD?
* How did Ruth Paine get Dorothy Roberts
to invite herself and Linnie Mae Randle
over for coffee which supposed resulted
in Ruth Paine learning about possible
jobs at the TSBD?
* And Everett Glover was the one who told
Ruth Paine about a group of ex Russians
she might like to meet and that is how
Ruth Paine came to meet Marina Oswald.
Is this true? Or is Everett Glover a
CIA agent himself. Or did he lie when
he said he introduced Ruth Paine to the
group that made it possible for her to
meet Marina Oswald.
It seems to me that CTers should have had
a lot of questions for:
Mrs. Dorothy Roberts
Mrs. Ruth Paine
Mr. Wesley Buell Frazier
Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle
Mr. Everett Glover
to find out what the real story is. Did
Oswald drift into this job by accident
or did some of the five members of this
group steer him their. It is actually
seems that all five of them must be lying.
Wesley Buell Frazier couldn't have just
happened to move to a few blocks of Ruth
Paine and just happen to get a job at the
TSBD. Everett Glover couldn't have just
happened to invite Ruth Paine to the group
that resulted in her meeting Marina Oswald.
Not if Oswald was set up as a patsy by a
conspiracy.
And yet, where is the evidence that CTers
ever seriously pursued these leads?
The Dutchman
Yup, and you've gotta get Roy Truly involved, too. Of all the principals
in a "guiding hands" plot, it seems the evidence for him being connected
to this thing is even less than Ruth, Linny, et al. In other words, we
know some people have made certain allegations about Ruth and others being
CIA, etc, based on some pretty weak, speculative info, but the worst thing
I've ever heard about Truly is that he was, like, a "right wing Dallasite
who hated KFK"--something along those lines.
If he flips a coin in his head the wrong way, LHO ends up blocks away on
Houston St, or wherever the other TSBD was; ditto if he flinches before
the moment of hiring and decides to screen our friend a little more.
I was kind of skeptical when I first read VB, saying that he could prove
no conspiracy (proving a negative) beyond a reasonable doubt, but the
implausibility of the guiding hands theory comes close to doing just that.
Anthony Marsh
Yeah, and how did Roy Truly get President Kennedy to visit Dallas and
drive right by his building? Don't you guys care enough about the
environment to stop wasting all this straw?
Robert Harris
<9cec59fe-b842-442c...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
WhiskyJoe <jr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> The curious thing about the CTers is that,
> assuming the their was a conspiracy to fill
> JFK and frame Oswald, is the minimal
> investigation of the obvious suspects.
> The failure to follow up the obvious leads.
>
> How did they get Oswald in position where
> he could shoot and/or be the patsy?
They recruited him. I've been telling you guys for a decade now, that
Oswald was a radical right winger. He was a disciple of Herbert Philbrick,
and a radical anticommunist.
He teamed up with Bringuier's people to bring down the FPCC and tried to
do the same to the ACLU and the CORE.
Marcello told the FBI informant that he met with Oswald and Ferrie at his
brother's restaurant in New Orleans. And he thought Oswald was crazy.
Oswald undoubtedly, bragged about being an expert Marine sniper and they
acted impressed. But of course, they didn't want him for his shooting
skills.
Oswald wasn't expected to make it out of DP alive, but he did, and Tippet
intercepted him as he was on his way to Ruby's apartment.
And the rest as they say, is history.
Robert Harris
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>In article
><9cec59fe-b842-442c...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> WhiskyJoe <jr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> The curious thing about the CTers is that,
>> assuming the their was a conspiracy to fill
>> JFK and frame Oswald, is the minimal
>> investigation of the obvious suspects.
>> The failure to follow up the obvious leads.
>>
>> How did they get Oswald in position where
>> he could shoot and/or be the patsy?
>
>They recruited him. I've been telling you guys for a decade now, that
>Oswald was a radical right winger. He was a disciple of Herbert Philbrick,
>and a radical anticommunist.
>
>He teamed up with Bringuier's people to bring down the FPCC and tried to
>do the same to the ACLU and the CORE.
Why do you think Oswald gave Bringiuer his Marine Manual?
I find the motivation for this act inexplicable.
Can you solve this riddle?
>Marcello told the FBI informant that he met with Oswald and Ferrie at his
>brother's restaurant in New Orleans. And he thought Oswald was crazy.
>Oswald undoubtedly, bragged about being an expert Marine sniper and they
>acted impressed. But of course, they didn't want him for his shooting
>skills.
So Oswald bragged about being an expert *Marine" sniper, and gave his
*Marine* manual to Bringuier.
>Oswald wasn't expected to make it out of DP alive, but he did, and Tippet
>intercepted him as he was on his way to Ruby's apartment.
Tippit.
>And the rest as they say, is history.
Indeed.
>
>Robert Harris
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
The Dutchman
>
> Yeah, and how did Roy Truly get President Kennedy to visit Dallas and
> drive right by his building? Don't you guys care enough about the
> environment to stop wasting all this straw?
What? What do you mean by that?
Anthony Marsh
> On 28 Nov 2009 00:57:42 -0500, Robert Harris<reha...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <9cec59fe-b842-442c...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> WhiskyJoe<jr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The curious thing about the CTers is that,
>>> assuming the their was a conspiracy to fill
>>> JFK and frame Oswald, is the minimal
>>> investigation of the obvious suspects.
>>> The failure to follow up the obvious leads.
>>>
>>> How did they get Oswald in position where
>>> he could shoot and/or be the patsy?
>>
>> They recruited him. I've been telling you guys for a decade now, that
>> Oswald was a radical right winger. He was a disciple of Herbert Philbrick,
>> and a radical anticommunist.
>>
>> He teamed up with Bringuier's people to bring down the FPCC and tried to
>> do the same to the ACLU and the CORE.
>
> Why do you think Oswald gave Bringiuer his Marine Manual?
>
Infiltration. Oswald was a spy wannabe. He wanted to spy on the
anti-Castro Cubans to puff up his resume to impress the Cubans.
Anthony Marsh
I get a little suspicious when I see people logging on with multiple
aliases and making up ridiculous theories just to be obnoxious and
making obvious errors like spelling the names wrong like Tippet and
Connelly.
Peter Fokes
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 11/28/2009 1:30 AM, Peter Fokes wrote:
>> On 28 Nov 2009 00:57:42 -0500, Robert Harris<reha...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article
>>> <9cec59fe-b842-442c...@x25g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>> WhiskyJoe<jr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The curious thing about the CTers is that,
>>>> assuming the their was a conspiracy to fill
>>>> JFK and frame Oswald, is the minimal
>>>> investigation of the obvious suspects.
>>>> The failure to follow up the obvious leads.
>>>>
>>>> How did they get Oswald in position where
>>>> he could shoot and/or be the patsy?
>>>
>>> They recruited him. I've been telling you guys for a decade now, that
>>> Oswald was a radical right winger. He was a disciple of Herbert Philbrick,
>>> and a radical anticommunist.
>>>
>>> He teamed up with Bringuier's people to bring down the FPCC and tried to
>>> do the same to the ACLU and the CORE.
>>
>> Why do you think Oswald gave Bringiuer his Marine Manual?
>>
>
>Infiltration. Oswald was a spy wannabe. He wanted to spy on the
>anti-Castro Cubans to puff up his resume to impress the Cubans.
Well, I asked Robert a question and Tony is replying. That's ok, but I
still hope Robert replies. Tony is not Robert (I hope!)
Now, Tony, it makes no sense for Oswald to make only ONE feeble effort
to infiltrate the anti-Castro Cuban group and then GO OUT and hand out
pamphlets blowing his apparent attempt at infiltration! Oswald was
not that dumb.
Is there a REASONABLE explanation why Oswald gave Bringuier his Marine
Manual?
>> I find the motivation for this act inexplicable.
>>
>> Can you solve this riddle?
>>
>>> Marcello told the FBI informant that he met with Oswald and Ferrie at his
>>> brother's restaurant in New Orleans. And he thought Oswald was crazy.
>>> Oswald undoubtedly, bragged about being an expert Marine sniper and they
>>> acted impressed. But of course, they didn't want him for his shooting
>>> skills.
>>
>> So Oswald bragged about being an expert *Marine" sniper, and gave his
>> *Marine* manual to Bringuier.
>>
>>
>>> Oswald wasn't expected to make it out of DP alive, but he did, and Tippet
>>> intercepted him as he was on his way to Ruby's apartment.
>>
>> Tippit.
>>
>>
>>> And the rest as they say, is history.
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>>>
>>> Robert Harris
>>
>> Peter Fokes,
>> Toronto
>
PF
Peter Fokes
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Huh?
Robert Harris IS Robert Harris, Tony.
Whew!
PF
Anthony Marsh
I mean that I am making fun of your constant straw man argument by one
upping yours with a more ridiculous one.
jas
You've touched on one of the major flaws of the CT argument, the
ridiculous notion that all these people -- and many, many more -- were in
on the plot. Then, we're supposed to believe that after all these people
were involved, and at least knowing of one "handler" they had to
communicate with to get instructions, NONE of them has ever made a mistake
by talking, or slipping up somewhere in revealing even the most remotest
peripheral aspect of the plot, in 46 years.
I mean, even just entertaining the thought that this situation could
possibly occur in the real world is truly amazing, let alone actually
believing it.
Bugliosi devotes an entire chapter to this foolishness.
The Dutchman
How is it a strawman argument?
jas
Better be more selective about what "ridiculous" statements you choose to
post Marsh. As you can see, we may confuse them with some of your other
ridiculous statements :>)
Anthony Marsh
Because it is so obviously ridiculous that it is easy knocked down.
That's what straw man means.
The Dutchman
I'm not too bright. Maybe I can learn something from the board's top
poster. Explain why the argument doesn't make sense. ["easily", not
"easy"; although not germane to the primary discussion]
Anthony Marsh
OK, we'll go slowly for the newbie. A strawman argument is a type of
ridicule where you take the basic structure of the other person's argument
and then change the conditions to make it so ridiculous that it could not
possibly be true.
Now, it I purposefully create a strawman argument I have to be careful to
make sure that the premises are ridiculous.
Just like the ridiculous notion that Oswald somehow arranged for the
President to drive right by the TSBD, my strawman argument outdoes that by
saying that Truly arranged for the President to drive right by the TSBD.
Anthony Marsh
I made it clear that I did not actually believe it myself. I was
illustrating for educational purposes how a straw man argument works. Do
you think there could possibly be any person who would really think that
Truly arranged for President Kennedy to visit Dallas and drive right past
his building?
The Dutchman
Answer the damn question.